Tattooed woman 'told to put bag over head by Jobcentre'

[Dark]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/8020254/Tattooed-woman-told-to-put-bag-over-head-by-Jobcentre.html





Hayley O'Neil, 23, - who also has 20 body piercings - says was also advised to ''stand behind a wall'' when she asked a job centre official what post she could apply for.

She eventually left the Job Centre Plus centre in Blackburn Lancs in tears without any interviews lined up after the advisor concluded: ''Who would hire you looking like that?

Miss O'Neil, who got her first tattoo from her mother as an 18th birthday present said: ''I just felt so humiliated. I couldn't believe what this guy was saying.

''I said I could take the piercings out but they look a lot worse when they are out."

"The guy said: 'on first impressions do you think anyone would hire you?' He said: 'look at it this way if you were to stand behind a wall - or put a paper bag over your face do you think you would have a better chance?'

on edit: added photo

[virginia mountainman]

1. She made a choice..

Now she must live with the consequences of that choice..

[seabeyond]

4. yup. nt

[cleanhippie]

104. I gotta say, I did not expect this from you.

I really did expect you to go the other way.

Just goes to show that I have always got to keep an open mind about everyone.

[Ken Burch]

125. This thread has revealed a lot of, shall we say, UNEXPECTED attitudes among DU'ers.

Perhaps we need a "You Kids Keep Off My Lawn!" DU Group.

[cleanhippie]

167. For the record

after reading through the threads, I'm not sure we would be in agreement.

[bherrera]

362. Maybe you guys can agree with me

She could take lessons to make tatoos and holes in people's skins, and open her business to deform other people that way. Then she can make some money and all of those guys can be happy. A woman who does that to herself shows some serious mental problems, I say. This means she may not be suited to work in a normal environment, and will be better in her own business.

[comtec]

231. Do you seriously expect an employer in THIS job market to put up with that appearance?

There are limits, and she is so far beyond them it's not even laughable.

An employer does have the right to refuse anyone for violating their dress code.
They have the right NOT to hire someone.

Those piercings are past the line.

Lets assume EVERYTHING (yeah right) in the article is true, every word....

What is incorrect about what was said?

Unless she's looking to work at a piercing parlor, porn shop, or coffee house, there is nowhere that will accept her as an employee.

especially when there are 1000 other people, who look appropriate, to take her place.

I'm sorry you somehow feel your and her rights to self-express are being hindered... but you really need to look at reality.

[cleanhippie]

232. What in the fuck are you talking about?

How in the hell did you manage to get all of that (so called) information about my opinion on this subject from my post above? Did I say ANY of the shit that you seem to think I did?

:wtf:

[seabeyond]

282. ?

open mind is always good. but i like surprises from people too. tickles me.

[Ken Burch]

5. The JobCentre had no right to humiliate her for that choice

It should have been enough for them to say "look, when you go for an interview, you might consider removing the facial piercings that day and wearing a long-sleeved blouse".

She had a right to expect that this agency would treat her with respect and dignity. We ALL have the right to expect that.

[seabeyond]

9. she told him that if she removed piercings would look worse. nt

[TheBigotBasher]

51. Actually the Job Centre does have that right.

There are however a number of questions that spring up straight away.

Firstly this is the Telegraph that used to be known as the Torygraph but has moved so far right it should be better known as the Baggergraph. The Telegraph is very much against teh Conservative / Lib Dem coalition government. Almost more than the Mirror. So there is an agenda here.

The guy said: 'on first impressions do you think anyone would hire you?' He said: ' look at it this way if you were to stand behind a wall - or put a paper bag over your face do you think you would have a better chance?'

Is that actually what he said, verbatim? Probably not. As part of a Jobseekers Allowance Direction the Job Centre advisor can advise the claimant to get a haircut, new clothes, join a new agency or pretty much anything to find work. Some claimants are shocked to hear this advice but this is the law.

"He talked to me as though I was just going through a phase in my life, but this is my lifestyle choice, and this is who I am."

Well this plays right in to the hands of the toff George Obsborne and that is probably the key to the article. "Benefits are a lifetime choice". Such comments make cutting benefits esier. Much to the disappointment of both Osborne and the woman concerned since the introduction of Job Seekers Allowance and more so the 2005 changes to the benefit JSA is not a life time choice and that kind of comment can exclude her from benefit. If the advisor does not think that the "jobseeker" is complying with the directions the DWP can impose a sanction or withdraw benefit completely.

[Ken Burch]

63. They have the right to offer polite guidance in a respectful tone of voice

They do not have the right to hurt a person's feelings.

It would have been enough for the guy to just suggest, speaking as one equal human being to another, that an appearance change could help. Telling a person to put a bag over their head OR stand behind a wall is never acceptable.

Why would anyone on a progressive talkboard defend a bureaucrat being abusive to a member of the public?

In a situation like this, there's no justification for being verbally brutal like that.

Everything he meant to suggest could easily have been suggested without taking that tone.

And this is an important issue if you're going to be progressive rather than paternalist(paternalism is NEVER progressive or humane)-the defense of human dignity.

[JuniperLea]

67. Oh boo fucking hoo...

What a crock of bullshit.

I've heard employment agents tell people to take a bath, to not wear so much perfume, to not wear so much jewelry, and I've personally told a receptionist I hired that she cannot wear the nose-ring she showed up to work in, and I told another she cannot wear the blouse slit to the navel that she showed up to work in. Both felt I was "taking a tone" and I can assure you, I was not.

You've heard one side of a three-sided story and you think you have it all sussed out...

:rofl:

What the fuck ever...

[Ken Burch]

74. Why is it asking so much to expect someone like this counsellor

to treat people who've been referred to him with respect?

In the situation I've describe, the job counsellor had ALL the power. The woman was at his mercy in this exchange. This gives the counsellor particular responsibility NOT to be overbearing or excessively judgmental.

All the things you listed above can be said to a person without making hurting them. And a GOOD employment counsellor knows how to do that.

BTW, you do realize that the person who was advised to take a bath may well have been homeless, don't you? If that's the case, it may not have been quite so easy for that person to find a place where they could shower. A lot of Giuliani types want to make it as hard as possible for the homeless to get showers and clean clothes, because they don't want those people to climb out of poverty, they just want them to leave...or die.

None of us is superior to this woman. And, any day of the week, we could all end up in her situation. If YOU did, you can't assume you'd handle it any better than she did.

Your attitude towards the human race is ugly and smells bad. You might want to put a bag over your soul, or at least wash it a bit.

[MajorChode]

78. It all comes down to who you believe

People who are rejected when looking for a job don't often take it very well. She has plenty of motive to lie (or greatly exaggerate) the situation. I have little doubt the agent in question sees people like this all the time, so until more people come forward and claim similar abuse I'm inclined to believe her story is greatly exaggerated at best.

[Ken Burch]

81. Bear in mind, though

other people may be afraid that, if they back up this woman's story, THEY will be blacklisted from future job openings.

It's just not a situation in which you should trust the JobCentre on this. They are the ones with the power, and power is almost always abused by whoever ends up getting it, at least in some way or another.

[MajorChode]

89. Perhaps

But I'm just pointing out that she has a strong motive to exaggerate what happened. Without corroberation, there's no way to really know for sure either way. Either side could be 100% correct or the truth could be somewhere in the middle.

[Ken Burch]

94. Ok...that's possible.

I've found it disturbing that there's the massive level of "she had it coming" sentiment in this thread directed towards the woman in the OP.

Seems we're seeing some fairly reactionary mindsets expressing themselves here.

Would those who've said that have had the same reaction if a job counsellor had made vicious comments about the length of their hair in, say 1969? Or(this is for the female posters here)if that same counsellor had made rude insinuations about their sexual orientation because they happened to have worn pants that day?

(five bucks says somebody responds to this with the phrase "THAT'S DIFFERENT" in the next two minutes.)

[seabeyond]

114. it is called being realistic and educated enough to know that things like this gets in the way

of getting a job. it isnt.... she deserved. it is, reality.

[Hamlette]

160. and you sir, exhibit some reactionary mindset about bureaucrats.

Of course she has the right to make alterations to her body that make her appear anti social but she needs to toughen up and not get her fee fees hurt when someone says "for whatever reason you chose to make yourself look like a freak, you need to expect to be treated like one."

[JuniperLea]

99. That's why I call these things a three sided story...

Your side, my side, and the truth... which generally lies somewhere in between.

[JuniperLea]

92. You really have no idea if this person was treated with respect or not...

That's the point.

[Ken Burch]

97. She left in tears.

And I have no reason to assume she's lying.

[JuniperLea]

100. So she says...

It's all about he said, she said, and the third side of the story... the truth. And there's no way to extrapolate the truth from this particular story with the little information given.

[Codeine]

102. You also have no reason to assume she's not.

ANY opinion on the issue is - at best - a speculative shot in the dark based on unverified testimony from a a party with motive to exaggerate. Everyone in this sub-thread is speculating, but some are holier-than-thou about it than others.

[comtec]

353. The truth often cuts deeper than any other insult

i've been brought to tear a few times by things that were said politely, but were true and cut me to my core.

I wonder why you are so quick to defend someone who has no place in a working environment?

She did this to herself, knowing what the ramifications would be.
no one says "oh yeah 5 face piercings are TOTALLY gonna get you that job!"

Why are you so vehemently attacking US?

[MajorChode]

76. It's definitely a one sided account of what happened

It's pretty much a sure bet that whatever happened was exaggerated and probably greatly exaggerated by the time she talked to the media. I have little doubt that she was probably told something about her appearance, but she should have expected it. If she is going to make her body look like she fell into a tackle box face first, she should have expected a negative reaction if she's looking for a mainstream job. Some people learn the easy way, and some people have to learn the hard way.

[JuniperLea]

91. Yep...

Some people have to pee on the electric fence for themselves:)

[TheBigotBasher]

110. "Why would anyone on a progressive talkboard defend a bureaucrat being abusive

to a member of the public?"

Why would you assume that what is in The Telegraph is correct?

[Lagomorph]

199. I want disability!!!!

You hurt my feelings...

You'll have to go a long way before it's widely accepted.

Piercings make many people very uncomfortable. It's reminds them of trauma. I've seen people break out in sweats over it.

It's there on your face for the world to see, but what's the message?

Attention seeking brings attention, and all the miseries that go with it.

[Hannah Bell]

145. +100. they're supposed to *help* unemployed find jobs suitable for them, not denigrate them.

i think there are probably work environments that would be ok with the piercings.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

228. respect!

:thumbsup:

a professional agency has a responsibility to train their employees in professional behavior.

I would judge her by her behavior, and if references informed me she was honest, dedicated, ethical, etc., I would be most happy to hire her.

If I was seeking employees with a conservative appearance, I'd tell her that.

He could have directed her to work that did not demand conventionality.

[comtec]

230. An employee has an obligation to RESPECT their employer's dress policy

harsh but true.

It's all well and lofty to say "I'm an individual" even tho they are just following the pack herd.
But it is UNREALISTIC to expect an employer to hire you.

I'm a Network engineer, and an instructor. Damned good at both, and there is no way in HELL I would ever be hired again looking like she does.
tattoos can be forgiven or covered with foundation, sleeves, and bandages, piercings can be removed.

This woman has literally NO excuse, especially in THIS market!

Even when the boom was at it's peak, there was a limit to what even silicon valley would put up with, and she is so far past that line, it's indescribable.

Self expression is for AFTER hours, not business hours.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

321. 1) She was not an employee yet. 2) Professionals treat even dumbasses courteously.

That's part of being a professional. Even if you want to give someone a well deserved poke in the snout, you bite your tongue and treat them civilly. A real professional is able to correct someone in a way that is to their benefit.

It's obvious the man interviewing her was NO professional.

[comtec]

352. again, this is assuming that everything she said is correct

and it's unlikely that was a direct quote.

However, sometimes a rude, blunt exclamation is what is needed to get a point across.

We also don't know what she was like, if she was rude or unpleasant. Or what kind of day he was having.
I'm hardly kind to people at temp agencies, but I have the background, and general politeness to get away with it most days.
But they are human too, and she has no right to expect to be hired looking like that.

this is one step from a depression, and it sounds harsh, but this woman has no place to complain.
it's dog eat dog in every field.
The best of the best, are even competing for shit jobs (by their standards anyway).

I have no sympathy for this person, and don't think the person who was being honest (even excessively blunt) should be punished by telling her the truth.

[Ken Burch]

273. That's my point exactly.

Employment agencies should, in fact, have a directory of job openings for people who with a "different" look.

It would get those people into jobs, and that's supposed to be the main objective here-not enforcing conformity for the sake of conformity.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

355. that,s a very good idea

There are places where alternative appearances are not a problem.

I hate conformity

[wordpix]

236. that's true---best advice a job counselor gave a group:

"Wear what the supervisor wears when you go for the job ---wear a suit----don't wear earrings like mine (points to long dangly earrings)---be clean, scrubbed and neat. AFTER you get the job, you can wear what you want as long as it fits in with the group you're working for."

[JuniperLea]

16. Indeed...

I think some people subconsciously make themselves un-hirable.

[sfwriter]

22. you sir, are limited if that's what you took from this...

I thought of two dozen jobs in my area where her look would be an asset before I finished the story.

[KittyWampus]

40. jobs that hire from an agency? Let's see- bar tender, cab driver, gas station attendent....

Note- i could care less about tattoos and body piercings.

[cleanhippie]

106. What jobs are those.

This I gotta hear.

Two dozen, thats 24.

Go.

[Jamastiene]

133. I can name one that I know of for a fact.

I had a friend who was a librarian here in town. She had a nose ring AND wore it to work.

The only reason she left was because she wanted to move somewhere else, not because they had a problem with the way she looked.

So, there is one. I'm sure there are 23 more.

[cleanhippie]

168. Are you in that area?

of the person I was asking above?

I want to hear what 24 jobs they were "just thinking of".

[Jamastiene]

235. No, but the area where I live isn't exactly known as a mecca

for liberals or tattooed/pierced people anyhow. Still, my point is that even here, people really have found jobs with nose rings at the very least.

If you limit it to just some piercings and tatoos, I know of plenty more. Mechanic, electrical contractor, Lowe's assistant manager (yes, I know not the best job, but it is one of the better jobs in my area, the other option in that area is Wal Mart, so...). I'm sure there are more.

Seriously, people act like people with tats and piercings cannot get a job. Bullshit. They can.

[boppers]

158. I live in Portland, Oregon.

I asked myself "Self: What jobs are your heavily pierced and tatted friends working in"?

That being said:
1. Waitress
2. Bartender
3. Dancer
4. Bank Teller
5. Grocery Clerk
6. Accountant
7. Nurse
8. Massage Therapist
9. Medical Transcriptionist
10. Receptionist
11. Accounts Payable Clerk
12. SEO Specialist
13. Helpdesk operator
14. Dance instructor
15. Barrista
16. Elementary School Teacher
17. Hospice Maintenance Staff
18. DJ
19. College Instructor
20. Veterinary Assistant
21. Bookstore clerk
22. Daycare staff
23. Booking Agent
....and of course:
24. Tattoo Shop artists and staff.

Maybe she's just trying to find work in the wrong City/Country.

[cleanhippie]

170. You may be right.

Perhaps we should send her some applications?

[Ken Burch]

181. She lives in England.

While the idea is nice, jobs in Portland probably wouldn't do her much good.

[cleanhippie]

213. Dude, it was humor. What is it with you in this thread anyway?

You have been at it for HOURS! Is this your topic du jour to hammer on or what?

[Ken Burch]

266. No....not hammering...just pointing out a fact, and without an axe to grind in that particular case.

Chill.

[cleanhippie]

340. I AM chill, friend. You are the one that is high strung here.

How many postings in this thread do you have over the past 24 hours? And you're telling ME to chill?

[Ken Burch]

346. It's a subject that interests me

I'm neither inked nor pierced, but the young people who are are a likely group of supporters for progressive politics. Also, it's fascinated me that so many people have reacted to the idea of piercing with emotions ranging from fear to rage.

Why, may I ask, do you CARE how often I post in this?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

46. I see you don't have a problem with the asshole attendant's asshole behavior.

Telling.

[JuniperLea]

60. I see you jumped to an assumption...

Without benefit of hearing the entire conversation or the other two sides to this three-sided story. Very telling, indeed.

[Name removed]

108. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cal33]

229. 18 is a very young age to make a choice that will remain with you for life....

Yet, that is the way it is. I think the mother should have known better
and advised her to wait.

[JerseygirlCT]

289. I agree

Totally her right to do that stuff to herself, but many people think it's just nasty, and it will undoubtedly impact the impression she makes.

[gateley]

2. The upscale pet food store I go to has employees with multi piercings and tattoos -

and I admire them for that. Great employees, by the way.

[SoCalDem]

6. The branch manager at my bank has what used to be a gang tattoo on his neck

I like the fact that he cleaned up his act and that they hired him.

[SoCalDem]

3. As sad as it is for her, she has to realize that when you alter your appearance dramatically

to set yourself aside from the "norm", you may have difficulty later, if you have to GO to the "norm" for employment.

Looking different and edgy is fine as long as you know that permanently changing your appearance lasts a very long time..perhaps well beyond the youthful years that inspired the changes.

It may not be fair, but the people who write the paychecks, have an image in their minds, of what their company's employees should present as the company-image.

[wtmusic]

7. +1

No value judgement :thumbsup:

[Ken Burch]

12. The Jobcentre could've made that point without publicly humiliating the woman

They were out of line.

Why would it have been asking too much for the Jobcentre to make suggestions about her appearance IN PRIVATE?

It's not as if they had a right to shame her in front of everyone else.

[SoCalDem]

15. I take it that this did not happen in the US?

Other places may have different codes of conduct for the job counselors..and it's possible that they will eventually be reprimanded. They were unnecessarily mean to her, but so far we have her story, and not the complete after-the-fact story. There may be more on this if she files an official complaint..

[Ken Burch]

28. It happened in the UK.

n/t.

[seabeyond]

18. where does it say anyone heard what the man said to her? i am going to re read a third time. nt

[Ken Burch]

21. Even if it wasn't public, he had no right to come out with the "stand behind a wall" line

That was verbal abuse, and spoken from an attitude of assumed personal superiority.

When you advise people about things like that, you have to treat them with respect and not shame them.

[JuniperLea]

53. Do you know the type of placement firm this was?

Do you know the kind of jobs she was looking for? Do you have the full conversation? Have you heard both sides?

[Ken Burch]

61. You're just assuming that the person who had all the power in this exchange

was correct.

Why SHOULD authority be given the benefit of the doubt?

This was about using your position to get away with belittling other people.

[JuniperLea]

70. Bullshit

I'm not assuming squat. I'm going off what I read in the article... you are the one making assumptions. You have no clue what the conversation was, nor do you know that the "person in power" was belittling anyone.

[left coaster]

37. You are right. This is the reality we all live in.. nt

[gateley]

50. It's hard convincing teenagers of that, though - and it IS sad. nt

[cleanhippie]

107. Aside from the rudeness of the jobcenter person

if it really went down that way, I really don't know what people expect when they do this to themselves. I shudder everytime a see a young man or woman with face piercings or earholes big enough to put a fist through, not because I don't approve, but because I know that in the real world, they will stand out and make it difficult for many to take them seriously.

[Ken Burch]

130. Here's what I would have said to a person like that...

"Look, you might want to consider taking out the piercings, at least at the job interview. Freedom of personal expression is fine, but it would probably help them see your better qualities if you looked a little more conventional when you went in to talk to them for the first time."

I damn well wouldn't have said anything about putting her head in a bag or anything like that. It's about HOW you say these things.

[cleanhippie]

173. Is that what really happened?

Has it been verified? Is it not plausible that the woman "exaggerated" a bit?

The point? You are right, its is good to be nicer about things like this, but we don't know if this happened just like the one side says so, so don't go nuts on everyone that isn't sure. Looking through the threads, it seems apparent that everyone pretty much has the same basic opinion on this, its just the details that are unsure. Relax, its not that big of a deal, yet.

[Owl]

214. I agree. Well said.

[MrScorpio]

8. Alternative Lifestyle vs. The World of Squares nt

[seabeyond]

right.... just a square if you dont pierce and tattoo. the very definition.

rolling eyes.

[Ken Burch]

13. No,,,you're a square if you humiliate other people for piercing and tattooing.

That woman had the right to expect that a government agency would treat her with respect.

It's never acceptable to tell a person to "stand behind a wall". No one should be made to feel THAT badly about their appearance.

And the job counsellor COULD, in fact, have pointed her towards jobs where its acceptable for people to look like that, and companies that are ok with an "edgy" personal appearance on the part of their employees. There's more places like that than you'd expect.

[seabeyond]

17. i am not seeing that there was anyone around to hear this. no indication in the article

they are having a discussion and though to the point or blunt, he is giving facts. she choses to be humiliated with a reality. not nice, not how i would talk to anyone, but hardly a story.

[Hannah Bell]

146. oh, bullshit. if someone who's supposed to be helping you find a job - on the public dime -

tells you to put a bag over your head, it's not about "choosing to be offended."

it's offensive. and intentionally so.

[Ken Burch]

147. This thread is really bringing out the classists, isn't it Hannah?

We're seeing a hell of a lot of people feeling entitled to judge the poor and the unemployed. The masks are, indeed, slipping.

[Hannah Bell]

149. fairly shocking. i expect it from wingers, but the extent to which i find it here is kind of

sickening.

[Ken Burch]

155. Phil Ochs could have added a verse about this attitude to one of his classic songs

"I grew my hair long in the Sixties
I wore love beads and flowery clothes
Had peace symbols sewed on my Levi's
Wore a full beard right up to my nose.
But if you're inked, or you're pierced, or you're dreadlocked
I don't hire people like THOSE...
So love me, love me, love me...I'm a Liberal".

[Hannah Bell]

163. nice.

[seabeyond]

150. oh, bullshit. nt

[Hannah Bell]

151. it's not intentionally offensive if a job center employee tells you you'd have more luck finding

work with a bag over your head?

hope it happens to you then, since it's so innocuous.

[seabeyond]

152. again... that isnt what he was saying. keep "pretending" you dont see the difference

in what he was saying

he was saying first impressions matter. all those piercings is not a good first impression

tell me hannah, is he wrong?

[Hannah Bell]

154. no, i don't see the difference. his job is to help find the client a job that suits her

characteristics, not to tell her "no one would hire you looking like that, do you think you'd have a better chance with a bag over your head."

He said: 'look at it this way if you were to stand behind a wall - or put a paper bag over your face do you think you would have a better chance?'


there are businesses that hire people with piercings & tattoos. his job is to help her find leads; instead, he wrote her off & denigrated her.

[TonyMontana]

251. To you they're not good first impressions

Because you judge people based on appearance.

Congratulations. I hope you're proud of yourself.

[seabeyond]

255. hm, pot calling kettle black. these arent my words. look thru every post

and let me know how i have judge anyone. i dont care what anyone does with body. the more outrageous the kid is the more i give them a smile and thumbs up. they have worked so hard for attention, i feel a responsibility to give it to them, in hte most positive of way. i figure they lack positive. and it is theirs to be creative. (i think this is the first time i have given my personal opinion on all this)

but you certainly jumped in with both feet. judgin me with lack of knowledge and info and incorrectly at that.

i was clarifying what the man said since the person i was talking to was wrong.

[seabeyond]

148. well, even per the woman, that is not what he said. he said, not a good first impression

if you were behind a wall, or put a bag over your head, do you think you would have a better chance.

in other words, if the first impression was without seeing the piercing. that is not the same as "put a bag over your head"

as i said in the post, not as i would have said it.... not defending him. but there is a difference in what she said he said, and how you say it.

[wtmusic]

26. Nah, tats are square now.

No tats are the alternative to your alternative. :D

[JuniperLea]

62. Exactly!

It's no way to be different than the crowd these days. How are you different when you are trying to look like everyone else? Makes no sense to me!

[Dark]

47. Most tattoos/piercings don't bother me, but there are some people with bad tattoos/piercings...

[Ken Burch]

66. That's NOT the face you'd want to see

through the confessional screen.

[sufrommich]

68. That guy will never get a job. Or a girlfriend. nt

[Ken Burch]

143. Then again, zombies usually don't need either.

n/t.

[TK421]

165. that's because he's just looking for attention...same reason others do that kind of shit

to their bodies ( OH...look at me....I'M DIFFERENT THAN YOU!!!! AND I INTEND TO SHOCK YOU WITH MY APPEARANCE BECAUSE I CRAVE ATTENTION!!!!!!!!!) I'm not sure if you should take it as an artistic expression of myself, because I really don't have a fucking clue what that is even!! But damnit to hell, I'm certainly gonna try!!! to be different, that is!!!! I don't want to be like the other thousands who have had their faces tattooed to look like skulls because that just wouldn't be origin.....oh, somewhat else did that?

I experienced something similiar when I was working in a department store in Florida...these two idiot kids walk up to the counter ( actually BUYING something ) and the one at the register has red contact lenses...and he keeps staring, and staring, and staring at me...hoping to get a reaction ( you fucking people sure love your reactions, don't you? ) I did look at him and said "Looks like you could use some Visine"! Yeah, I noticed the red contacts, but as I rang up his purchase, I just looked at him like " Dude...get a life or fucking play in traffic...nobody fucking cares about your red eyes"

[undergroundpanther]

175. I like his skullface

I would date him if he was a person compatible with me.I find body mod BEAUTIFUL and each person's art is a story.

[A HERETIC I AM]

243. ....

[WinkyDink]

57. Maybe so. But then, might not be brilliant to try for a Square-World job.

[PSzymeczek]

319. I refer you to

The Scary Guy. http://www.thescaryguy.com/main.php
I don't know if he's still in Tucson. About 10 or so years ago, the Hubster, my daughter and I were having lunch at the Marie Callender at the Tucson Mall and he was there. As nice as can be, he does speaking against stereotyping and bullying those that are "different".

[IndianaJoe]

10. Thanks for the help! Does this mean my resume's OK? n/t

[lunatica]

11. I can think of plenty of jobs she would be welcomed in

Bartender in lots of bars, especially one's that cater to motorcycle drivers and punk culture people. Tattoo artist. I've seen people with tattoos and piercings working in bookstores and restaurants here in Berkeley. This isn't the only place that's liberal. She could work in the kitchen of just about any restaurant I've worked in and I've seen plenty of waiters and waitresses with tattoos and piercing and spiked hair that's blue or pink or green. The pet stores I go to have employees who look just like her. She could be a pet groomer. She could be a deliver person or a messenger person.

That asshole could have thought of these types of jobs.

[Ken Burch]

19. Well, I can think of two reasons

1)This happened in the UK, so they wouldn't be thinking of jobs in Berkeley anyway.

2)The UK just elected a rather mean-spirited Tory government, and I suspect that directives have been sent out to various agencies there to stigmatize people who look "different" than the moneygrubbing Yuppie ideal that Tories seek to force everyone to emulate.

[Denzil_DC]

31. Not wishing to defend the Tories

but this sort of attitude's nothing new in UK Jobcentres. It's been the case for many, many years under both Labour and Tory governments.

Not all staff will be wallies of course, but when you have a stream of people coming through your door desperate to find a job, or to explain to you why they haven't found a job if they've been sent for assessment, and you're their gateway to opportunities or prolonged benefits, I guess the inner reactionary can't be silenced in some cases.

[Ken Burch]

39. You've got a point about that, as well.

n/t.

[KayLaw]

20. That's right, Lunatica.

And there was no reason to use such cruel language.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

83. Hell, computer programming. Web design.

The marketing reps might need to look square, but the techies don't.

[Ken Burch]

164. Body mod hasn't held Abby Sciuto back

n/t.

[Codeine]

14. We have plenty of tattooed employees at our store,

and many of them have body piercings, but we aren't really down with facial piercings, certainly not to that degree. My girlfriend has a very nice dermal on her cheekbone, but even she says this lady looks ridiculous.

[SoCalDem]

23. Perhaps a plastic surgeon will step up and offer her some help

The facial piercings look like they could be remedied , and the tattoos are not that unusual or offensive. My friend had much more extensive facial repairs following an impact within a windshield and her scars were barely visible afterward.

[Codeine]

29. I imagine fixing the results of facial piercings and ear stretching

will be a growth industry in the next few decades. I like piercings and have several of my own, but some folks overdo it rather childishly. It stops being beautiful and just looks gross. Pierce your nose. Get a lip ring. Get a dermal implant. THEN STOP! Don't mess up your whole face to show us how shocking and hardcore you can be.

[SoCalDem]

34. My "rebel" son "threatened" to get some tattoos

and to grow his hair long:)

I reminded him that boys I dated had hair long enough to sit on :) and I told him I was fine with tattoos as long as they did not happen on his face or hands:)


He decided to pierce one ear & I gave him an earring:)

The long hair thing fizzled when he found out what a pain long hair can be:)

[JuniperLea]

59. Perfectly played...

I know a lovely young girl who now has four tattoos... I think they are lovely, but her uber button-down dad does not. I'm betting he doesn't get it at all... this, to me, is clearly a power struggle. He would have been much happier had he taken the "I refuse to power struggle" stance that you did!

[JustAmused]

131. Perfect

Great approach to that issue. I survived in corporate america for a number of years with fairly long hair. We also had a manager who had tats from waist to wrists. Of course he stayed buttoned up most of the time. In this case, there is a lot we don't know. For instance, what position was she applying for? Is the story accurate, or is it leaving some things out? I would like to know the whole story before making any judgments here

[WinkyDink]

64. I wouldn't bet on that free surgery thing.

[KILL THE WISE ONE]

24. he should have told her to remove face piecing an where long sleeves

[seabeyond]

25. he did. she told him they looked worse when she took piercings out. nt

[Ken Burch]

27. Well, there was still the sleeves thing.

Actually, her piercings weren't THAT out there by today's standards.

[seabeyond]

30. since he made the comment about bag over head, i have to assume the piercings are the issue

i am sure if he suggested she pull the piercings, he probably mentioned wearing long sleeves. assumption. but pretty much the normal comment to go with take piercings out.

[Codeine]

35. By today's employment standards they are.

Most employers honestly don't seem to care much about tattoos anymore unless they are prison tats, gang-related, supremacist-oriented, or just really gross and shitty. Sometimes placement (neck and face especially) are an issue, but not so much just the fact that someone is inked.

I tell people who ask to apply at our company and they mention they have tattoos "Tattoos are fine. Bad tattoos aren't."

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

36. a dozen pieces of visible shrapnel in your face isn't "out there"?

[Ken Burch]

41. It's not like she had the Jane Child look:

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

43. That is much less out there,

Off goes the chain, and she is just a chick with a nose ring.

[Codeine]

44. But that's beautiful.

Her motley collection of ball bearings? Not so much.

[Ignis]

32. K&R. Why not just suggest she wear a burqa?

:argh:

[sfwriter]

33. What a limited and petty little man...

Seriously. There are DOZENS of jobs where her piercings are irrelevant and several where they would b a plus.

This guy sounds like a high-school guidance counselor who "made it big."

http://jobseekers.direct.gov.uk/homepage.aspx?sessionid=25d06a2c-a86a-4340-98ca-a6b040db881b&pid=2

The Jobcenter LISTS body piercer and body artist as jobs and lists no jobs saying no piercings. She should just search online.

[Ken Burch]

38. Yeah...the guy definitely has a bad case of TGS

(Tiny Genital Syndrome.)

[tammywammy]

48. If she only has experience getting work done and not doing it, it maybe hard to break into that job

I believe it's an apprenticeship sort of deal in the tattoo/piercing world.

[Leftist Agitator]

42. Sweetheart, in 25 years all the old fucking shitheads...

Who seem to think that body art is "unprofessional" will be dead, and this will go the way of asking a woman if she is married before you hire her.

Shame that we have to wait that long, but there you have it.

[izquierdista]

77. In 25 years

Many of these piercings will turn into weeping fistulas or heal over into painful keloids and the tattoos will bleed into smudges. I hope I live long enough to see these fads pass into obscurity and for children to give up mutilating themselves. In 50 years, there will be no end to the hilarity to be had as a coroner or morgue worker.

[TheCowsCameHome]

80. Imagine when these human billboards hit their 50's and 60's

and the wrinkles and sags really set in.

Gaaak.
:puke:

[izquierdista]

112. What I would like to see

There's got to be some guy out there who decided to tattoo his testicles like Faberge eggs and make his penis into a barber pole. Gives a new meaning to the phrase huevos con chorizo. :rofl:

[TheCowsCameHome]

116. Oh, man........

That is some funny.:rofl:

[Jamastiene]

134. I wish you weren't against tattoos.

That description would be beautiful to see in real life. I don't have those body parts you mention, but I would love to see it. I can visualize the "Faberge eggs." You have a real creative streak there. You should have been a tattoo artist. That would look great!

[cliffordu]

188. just find grantcart.

[grantcart]

215. on my way home so you better clear out by the time I get there

[cliffordu]

216. ....Very SMALL fabrege eggs......

[PADemD]

123. smudges

That's exactly what I saw on a bus trip to Atlantic City.

[undergroundpanther]

183. I have had my pierces for

over ten years,they aren't "weeping fistulas". The only keloids are from denying who I am and the emotional pressure of self hate for not being able to "fit in" that fueled the reasons for cutting myself. The old cut marks are not painful keloids ,and yes they tell a story,and some of the scars are inked over and none of my work is smudging or fading.I take care of my tats because I love them..My father's tats didn't smudge either,they looked the same even in the coffin..Obviously you know only about the potential risks of body mod,and problems caused by idiots who neglected to take care of the healing processes of their mods. Lots of people have tats and they are beautiful to see.Tattoos and body mod has existed far longer than this "mainstream" and"corporatist" destructive pay to exist culture that oppresses so many now to the point they love their chains and stay locked in the mental de/ fences like good sheeple are told to do..

Far more body mods heal up fine than go wrong. Chances of a good mod increase dramatically if the person has the sense to go to a licensed tattooist/piercer &takes care of it as it heals and use sunblock on tats, so they never can fade..

educate yourself next time you slam tattooing and piercing.

[dmallind]

204. 21-24 years here since i was tattooed and mine are still bright and clean

[izquierdista]

211. Mod is not necessary

Circumcision is only necessary in maybe 1% of males. Otherwise, I am strongly in favor of leaving things as nature issued them. I know they have existed for a long time, before recorded history, probably as a way to help identify tribe from non-tribe. The various mutilations "modifications" are primitive holdovers from a time when human language, intellect, and reason weren't as well developed. I would hope that in the continuing evolution of the human species, the need for such marking will wither away.

[a la izquierda]

222. are you for real?

you need to read more. a LOT more.

the ignorance on DU is astonishing. you can perfectly well state you don't like modifications. but for god's sake, until you personally can build me a pyramid without the wheel, beasts of burden or modern machinery, you have zero business calling societies that tattooed/pierced primitive. the mayas and incas, to name two, sure as hell weren't primitive.

[izquierdista]

233. Why would I want to build a pyramid?

I don't have a primitive belief in needing a resting place for my remains while a half-animal, half-human deity leads me through the underworld.

[a la izquierda]

358. way to totally miss the point.

ciao.

[Maine-ah]

246. fine, and that's your body and your choice.

why sit around and insult others for their choices?

I have piercings....three in one ear and four in the other, one in my belly button. A tat on my back. Yes, for the most part they're always covered up, so you wouldn't know unless I showed you.

[Odin2005]

312. LOL you just proved my point about Boomers and the "artificial = evil" garbage.

Us younger folks don't give a shit.

[undergroundpanther]

177. I'm 44

And waiting for the old shitheads to die off too,it's not gonna stop me from healing through my body mods.I do not care about the mainstream and corporate control freak cultures.The sooner social conservatism dies off the better.The sooner corporate culture dies the better.Time for the old asshole types to grow up or give up.I have had my mowhawk since I was 18.

[Ken Burch]

182. Well said.

Death to Uptightness!

[sufrommich]

200. What kind of job do you have? nt

[lunamagica]

327. I bet Hippies in 1970 said the same thing and they thought by now

men with hair down to their waist would be the norm.

This is just a fad, and like all fads, it will pass; and 25 years from now young people will look at them and just laugh....

[StarryNite]

45. Tackle box accident perhaps?

She obviously wanted to look different...she does. She had the right to choose to have the tattoos and piercings. Companies have the right not to hire her. It's not as if she was disfigured in an accident.

[Gman]

49. They didn't have to be rude

but she's not hireable like that.

[JuniperLea]

52. I couldn't hire her...

Not in this job, or in my two previous. There are still a lot of uber professional and old school companies around, and I can't take a chance that one of our clients, many of whom are very old school, would think someone like this is a reflection of my company.

That said, I've seen plenty of retail workers with hardware in their faces and ink all over... doesn't bother me at all.

I do feel that people limit themselves... and a few will never be hired outside of a tattoo parlor or metal club... like Mr. Skullface upthread.

[Ken Burch]

87. Well, Mr. Skullface is in a whole different category.

He'd have probably just eaten the job counsellor's brains...which, in this case, would have been a light meal, at best.

[ORDagnabbit]

54. i've wondered how the heavily tattooed and pierced people would ever get a job and survive in the

real world....

I wouldnt hire em for anything but menial labor out of the customers view.

[Mimosa]

58. I've an intuition they never wanted JOBS.

Too much WORK. ;)

[JuniperLea]

65. That's what I think too...

Consciously or subconsciously, they are limiting themselves... unless they start their own company, it's highly unlikely they will hold any professional positions. Hell, most burger joints wouldn't hire them! There are a lot of retail jobs they can hold, but they better know that minimum wage is probably the best they can hope for in this world.

[seabeyond]

88. my nephew who dropped out of highschool soph year was gonna show us all and get a job

he went out in a old tshirt and jeans with a bunch of holes

ya

really want that job

but but but they should accept him for who he is.....

he works about that way to. not about following rules, everyone is suppose to accept him for who he is.

[JuniperLea]

96. I know so many kids with that attitude...

It's really weird, imho. I wonder if it has anything to do with fear of success? Cuz you know darn well there will be none... not in anything that pays more than minimum wage...

:shrug:

[Codeine]

98. Too much self-esteem is as bad as none. LOL! nt

[Ken Burch]

185. UH...yeah...this woman never wanted a job.

So naturally she went to a Jobcentre.

Brilliant logic there.

:eyes:

[sufrommich]

71. Unfortunately, I don't think that occurs to them until they're

older.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

82. Yes, young people seem to have a difficulty grasping exactly how much...

...the world is taken by tight-assed prude assholes.

[sufrommich]

84. What they have a hard time grasping is that some fads

are permanent. I know, I'm 53 and have 3 tattoos. Fortunately, all of them can be covered,if I had the money to get rid of them, I would.

[TheCowsCameHome]

86. I've had some removed...

The pain is 10X the original procedure.

Just keep covered up.

[sufrommich]

90. I've heard that . I've also heard it's really, really

expensive. Two are on my back, I can live with that,but one is on my upper arm, old and smudging.I'd love to get rid of it. I remember my Mom telling me "Imagine how you're going to feel about those tattoos when you're 50", I should have listened to her.

[seabeyond]

95. BIL got a small one on the ankle. his mom was livid, very controlling, whole reason he did it

got his psychiatrist degree and in the process had lots of treatment and decided he didnt need the thing to rebel against mom. he had it removed. said the same.

[TheCowsCameHome]

103. I had mine done at a major hospital in a program testing laser devices,

The cost to me was very modest, but in each session they could only remove small layers of the tattoo without the risk of scarring.

It took about 8-10 sessions to remove one, and the pain was nasty. I wouldn't do it again. (Get one, or have one removed)

[Ken Burch]

105. I wonder why they didn't give you an anesthetic?

n/t.

[TheCowsCameHome]

111. Good question.

Never mentioned, by me or them.

Maybe the procedure is easier today.

[Ken Burch]

113. Perhaps they saw the pain as your penance for nonconformity

n/t.

[TheCowsCameHome]

115. They got their money's worth, if they did.

:rofl:

[Lucian]

109. Way to be a good, understanding liberal.

:sarcasm: :eyes:

People intolerant like you don't get a second chance in my book.

[ORDagnabbit]

135. if you dont give a second chance isnt that being intolerant?

[Ken Burch]

119. And you'd make 'em sleep out back in the slave quarters?

:eyes:

Way to show your humanity, dude.

[ORDagnabbit]

137. give it a break man...everybody makes choices.. you dont want to be part of mainstream society

and decide to do massive body modifications then it sucks to be you when you try to get a job in that same mainstream society you shun.

the hippies wised up and cut their hair and got jobs...the sad thing with the youth of today is its hard to fill in those piercings and cover up that face tattoo.

[Ken Burch]

139. So, because you sold out and gave up, THEY have to?

I've got you pegged...another young rebel turned old fogie.

Better hurry...you'll miss the Early Bird Special at Denny's.



(It's REPUBLICANS that are supposed to do the "kids today" thing...not US, for God's sake...)

[undergroundpanther]

171. I do not want to be "mainstreamed"

I would die in the mainstream world. I can't live as a mundane,square or normal.It crushes my soul,I feel like a betrayer of my own life.

If you can't live in the "mainstream" culture, Than build another culture.A counterculture..The mainstreamed will resent the alternative cultures ,fear their kids/property will break the parental rules and reject the mainstream. Truth is some will join the alternative cultures, others will envy and hate the alternatives,others hate the alternate cultures for rejecting the "mainstream"..and these haters will be bigoted and excuse abuse dished out by others assholes who share their neurotic need for control of what others are/do,desperate to pretend in a fiction called "normalcy."A fiction crated by eugenicists to justify who is valuable and who is not...Bigotry based is a shallow appearance based judgments of "look-ism".

[dmallind]

207. Just a tad one sided eh?

So in other words if you dislike mainstream culture, it's because you feel you would be betraying your own life and so you nobly join an alternative culture.

But if those in the mainstream dislike YOUR alternative culture it's because they are either envious or bigoted or neurotic.

Why is one dislike and distancing noble and the other hateful? Personally while heavily tattooed i have no desire to wear red vinyl and heavy make up or get into furryism or even pierce my nose. Is it OK that I prefer comfy and practical clothing and no holes in my face beyond the normal ones? Why not? Why is it not my choice to dress up in LL Bean and other "square" styles et al, but automatically bigotry directed against the alternative crowd? What makes your dislike - to the point of considering it deadly and soul crushing - of my choices not the bigotry here?

[CBR]

201. Slave quarters? nt

[dmallind]

205. Heavily tattooed here. Senior management in $1B+ mfg company. You? NT

[ORDagnabbit]

334. i can be anything on the internet just like you can. :)

[Mimosa]

55. She did it to herself!

She looks stupid. People might not tell her why they won't hire her. But most people won't hire her for any job involving contact with the public.

[WinkyDink]

56. We can be told to wear a suit but can't be told FACE-PIERCINGS won't get us employed? Should the

advisor have LIED?
The problem was that he was rude? Well, whatever. Maybe he got exasperated and snapped.

I'm usually extremely sympathetic to the plights of homeless or jobless people, but I also try to be extremely sympathetic to common sense.
Which this young person lacks IF HER GOAL IS A JOB.

[TheCowsCameHome]

69. She looks to be a tough 23, with all that ironwork.

Id've guessed 40 anyway.

[StarryNite]

72. Who would want to hire somebody

that makes such stupid choices? It certainly shows a lack of forethought and intelligence.

[naaman fletcher]

73. The truth hurts /nt

[guardian]

75. I think the Job Centre showed tough love.

What's better? To tell her the truth so maybe she can change if she wants to? Or to lie to her so she can keeping wondering why people won't hire her.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

79. THAT is a phrase that makes me want to vomit.

"Tough love." :puke:

[Ken Burch]

85. +10 bazillion!

"Tough Love" is the worst sort of paternalism, and paternalism is ALWAYS right-wing. True progressives have an obligation to resist the notion of anyone having the right to "talk down" to anyone else.

Even if we agree that this woman's appearance could be an issue, there's a way to express that without getting ugly about it.

[seabeyond]

93. tough love is nothing about talking down. it is about establishing boundaries.

you make this choice. this will be the repercussion.

[Ken Burch]

101. And that phrase "boundaries" always sets my teeth on edge, as well.

There's an assumption that the person doing the setting is superior to the person having them set, as opposed to the likely truth, that the person "setting the boundaries" is just luckier.

There's a paternalism and an arrogance to how exchanges like that occur.

We need to give up anything connected to paternalism, and have a supportive, solidaristic way of helping people get out of poverty. It's right-wing bullshit to assume that poverty or unemployment is the result of personal shortcomings.

We need to base our approach to these questions on the recognition that ANY of us could end up jobless, homeless, powerless, hopeless at any moment, and that, therefore, no one can really claim personal superiority over anyone else.

[seabeyond]

117. actually, .... i think we all set our boundaries or we need to.

i am a believer in boundaries. you arent?

i think it is really important that people recognize boundaries too.

but....

i wasnt really referring to this woman at jobcenter. i was explaining what tough love is. it is not about looking down on. it is an equalizer. eye to eye. choice, choice.

it could not be more balanced.

[Ken Burch]

118. I'm fine with the idea of boundaries.

But I'm also talking about how we structure the exchange between those that need help and those that are supposedly offering it.

[seabeyond]

121. fine... but that has nothing to do with the tough love we are talking about in this

sub thread that you cringe with.

do you know if he offered her a job that she didnt want, but that she would be able to do that didint have to do with piercing? do any of us? do we know if she is being difficult? do we know that if she took the piercings out it wouldnt be worse, but she just doesnt wnat to because it is her "lifechoice"?

do you know anything about this woman or the situation but a couple sentences that she said he said....

i dont know.

and i am not going to go on a tirade with the little info in this article because the woman does not like that her piercings are stopping her from getting a job.

[Odin2005]

176. I think you are at the wrong website.

"Tough Love" is a reactionary authoritarian notion.

[Ken Burch]

186. And it's usually implemented by priveleged people

Who have never known what it was like to be unlucky, or powerless, or in pain. People who feel SUPREMELY entitled to sit in absolute judgment of everyone who doesn't meet THEIR standard of absolute cosmic perfection.

[RedCloud]

120. Well we always need to hear both sides of the story.

My jury is still out.

[lynne]

122. I'm thinking telephone customer service would be right up her alley -

- or any of the numerous lines of work where you don't deal with the general public. But, that first impression is going to be a real hurdle to get over.

Something to think about before you get the body modifications.

[Ken Burch]

124. A far better, and far more constructive approach to this issue

(it's not likely that this is the only pierced person looking for work)would be for the Jobcentre and other similar agencies to compile position openings where piercing or ink WON'T be an obstacle to hiring.

This would be far more useful than the approach used by the Jobcentre if it was accurately described in the OP.

[seabeyond]

126. what if... she had a really rotten attitude. what IF she didnt want anything offered

what IF ....

you. dont. know. what. happened.

[Ken Burch]

129. The post you're responded to wasn't even discussing that.

It was more general, and was about providing an alternative approach.

What do you think of the actual suggestion I made in it, regardless of what you may feel about this particular person?

[Tsiyu]

127. I'm surprised by the reactions here

More "old fashioned" mindsets than I expected.

The way I see it, there are all sorts of conditions that might make a person "look different" and attract curious/shocked/disapproving attention.

Some are not by choice, such as large facial birthmarks/cleft lip scar/leg braces and a shuffling gait.

Others are self-chosen, like piercings, a head scarf or acute obesity (in many cases.)

We either accept others as they are - no matter their appearance - or we don't.

There is no middle ground for me.

And I would hire this woman if she had the skills for the job. Piercings don't frighten this old lady any more than old, gray men, in polo shirts and khakis, with bulbous guts scare me. In fact, the latter scare me worse.















Don't hurt me...

[seabeyond]

128. actually, i did hire people with piercings and tattoos

when i managed a dry cleaner. we werent particular. you work, you got a job.

[Ken Burch]

132. You're a good person.

And you display the attitude we should ALL have towards our fellow human beings.

Progressives are supposed to fight for the idea that people should be accepted as they are, and in your gentle, yet eloquent way, you're doing just that.

Why are there so many premature fogies in this thread?

I mean, none of our presidents have had piercings or (visible) tattoos thus far. Are we sure that's given us the best possible talent pool for the job?

I myself would vote for Henry Rollins over Mike Huckabee any day of the week.

[Tsiyu]

142. What a kind thing to say...thank you

I managed a bunch of kids in a corporate setting, and always let them wear their piercings even though it was against corporate rules.

i just warned them when upper managers were due so I wouldn't get my ass chewed out.

Though I do laugh at Garrison Keilor's description of kids who "look like they fell face first into a tackle box," the sweetest, gentlest, smartest and most hardworking kids I know include those with piercings and tattoos.

I'm with you on this Ken Burch...too many judgmental people worrying about the wrong thing.

Funny, because i posted Johnny Cash's "What is Truth" in the JC thread. Everyone who is a "premature fogie" should go right now and read those words Mr. Cash wrote.


Peace, KB :hug:

[Ken Burch]

144. Peace, Tsiyu.

n/t.

[Common Sense Party]

260. Would you hire someone with a huge Jesus cross around their neck

or that would always wear Sarah Palin t-shirts to work?

[Ken Burch]

277. If they were the most qualified, probably.

Where I'd draw the line with THAT person would be any moments when THEY didn't respect the boundaries of customers or other employees and tried to aggressively proselytize for their political or religious views.

Of if they hassled other employees or customers for being gay or (if they knew of it)having had an abortion.

[Lucian]

156. I agree.

It's too old fashioned. Young people have embraced tattoos/piercings in the workplace. It's more older generations (you being an exception) who are intolerant of those things. It's sad, really.

Just because you're covered in tattoos and/or body piercings, doesn't mean you're not qualified to do a job. Looks like tattooed/pierced people are one of the few groups of people that are still allowed to be discriminated against here.

[Tsiyu]

159. It's just inculcated bias

I suppose. But the same people who point fingers and yell "Mutilation!" don't bat an eyelash over boob jobs, severe facelifts, hair replacements or liposuction showing up in the workplace, even though these procedures are muy painful and not medically necessary.

So it must not be about the "self-mutilation" but about the "That is different and I don't want to see anything different."

These are always the same arguments people use to discriminate against the "other."

I hope these people are never confronted with people from other cultures who pierce or tattoo when they travel. Though I imagine a well-travelled person would not have the cultural bias many show here.

[Odin2005]

169. I agree with you.

I have no tattoos or piercings, nor do I plan on getting any, but I have NO problem with people having tattoos or piercings. Some people, including many in this thread, need to join the 21st century.

[Dawson Leery]

136. Tattoos = Body Mutilation

[Codeine]

138. Sometimes. Other times Tattoos=Incredibly beautiful and inspiring art.

It's like anything else; mostly crap with the occasional gem.

[Ken Burch]

141. This thread is really bringing some weird reactionary feelings to the surface, isn't it?

Who knew that ink and piercing was DU's "that's going too far, you young whippersnapper" point?

:eyes:

You'd think they'd realize that young people with tats and piercings are and will continue to be a large component of the voting blocs we need to bring in, this year and in years to come, if this party is to remain competitive.

[undergroundpanther]

162. Seems DU hates people who body mod

like they hate fat people and they ridicule furry people.

I have body mods.Body mod is part of my personal path to healing from the extreme traumas that keep me in therapy and cause me a lot of pain. To ME body mod is my way of healing.Everyone who has PTSD or a mental illness has to find what makes them well inside and what helps them to find peace within and happiness.Everyone is entitled to find what gives them joy and sanity in life,even if normal people don't understand or like it.As long as it does no damage to others. My body is becoming MINE and my body mod is MY way to peace that works for ME. Through my tattoos and body mod I am reclaiming my body from all the asshole people that taught me to hate myself for existing ,for not being a girl,not identifying with humanity,etc.etc..First tat I got,I was in the sho0wer it had healed up,and as I washed my arm all I could feel was how beautiful it is,how it colored me and that no one could take it away and I felt peace,I love to touch where my tats are,they are so beautiful..I cried from joy that day.

I know my body becoming a reflection of my inner self will probably not make me a viable "product" to be consumed by the market or used by some profit seeker.I know for psych reasons and physical reasons I cannot work.I know I may wig out bigots on the left who think they are so damn open minded,and freak the mundanes too.I am well aware plenty of people will be threatened/fascinated by my appearance and judge me for it or love me for it.I don't care what others think anymore.I have tried to kill myself 25 times trying to fit in with this soul killing culture and I have a right to be myself and if need be seperate myself FROM the culture that makes me crazy.

All my life I have always freaked stupid people out by my appearance and creativity and boldness. I know that part of my life will stay the same with or without body mod..But what counts to me..to myself is,I feel beautiful,empowered and at peace within,and that feeling grows with every stripe of color I get put on my body, until eventually my human face will go away forever and I will look upon my own real face, the face I was taught to deny,hate and was told could never be,The true inner face of me,Panther in reality.All those who rejected me, abused me their marks upon me both physical and emotional will be blotted out but it will be just in memory.But for reality,MY reality I will be beautiful to ME,and I can rest in that small comfort that cannot be taken, knowing I am what I am for real and there is no one on earth that can erase me and take my identity away from me, finally.

Not everyone who gets body mods or tattoos does it for trivial or stupid reasons.
Just because you don't understand why someone does something to themselves you can't or wouldn't do gives you no right to be an asshole to them or trash what they do.. DU,get over it.Let people find happiness even if it looks weird to you.

[Odin2005]

174. !!!

:hug:

[undergroundpanther]

180. hugs back at cha

I'm 44 and modified and sick of mainstream bigotry too.

[Tsiyu]

206. If that is you, you are beautiful

And if not, she is beautiful, whoever she be.

Funny recent tat story

One of my dear friends (she gave me some chickens recently for which I am extremely grateful) is having a gorgeous nature scene done on her arms and shoulders. You should see it. She recently had a luna moth added you wouldn't believe. It looks so real.

Well, her tat guy is so good, a few weeks ago he added some smaller insects to her upper arms. She was out in her garden weeding, felt something bite her arm, looked down at the insect tat and slapped the hell out of it! She cracks me up. :)

oh, and she told me this story at her workplace, where I was a customer, and where many - unlike me - very upper class - and I mean upper class to the extreme - people are customers.

None of those people ever complain about her tats. Ever.

but they are well-travelled and cultural differences do not frighten them.


It's funny because I was thinking about you when this thread started and thought you must have finally left DU since you didn't check in to defend the beautiful soul in the OP.

Glad to see you are still here :hi:

[Odin2005]

218. Ditto to that!

[Odin2005]

172. Methinks it's upper-middle class classism coming out.

Tattoos and piercings are perceived very negatively by many well-off people over a certain age

[Tsiyu]

178. You have to wonder where these people have been

or maybe haven't been.

Piercings are just not that big of a deal any more in any progressive place I've been.

But then, I forget that a lot of Americans never go anywhere outside their subdivision/commute to work/local mall/grocery/WalMart.

[Ken Burch]

187. I think this tells us that DU may be far more suburban than anyone here suspected.

A lot of people are heavily invested in defending THEIR "comfort zone".

[undergroundpanther]

191. Ironic

I want the hell out of the suburban hell I am stuck living in currently. I miss the city.I miss not walking for MILES to get anywhere.

[Ken Burch]

193. I hope you can escape.

n/t.

[Odin2005]

220. I like living in the middle of a medium-sized city (Fargo)

Though I would rather live in downtown Minneapolis.

[Odin2005]

219. I figured that out a while ago.

Explains the lack of concern with the poor and homeless as well as all the Obama cheerleaders.

[Ken Burch]

265. I salute your greater awareness of this!

Sounds like DU needs...its OWN counterculture!

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

237. Have you been to a suburb lately?

There are lots of people who look the alleged victim, because their still living with their parents.

[Odin2005]

270. They're. n/t

[Ken Burch]

284. Yes. And there are lots of people like YOU giving them shit for no reason.

n/t.

[Ken Burch]

184. A LOT of masks slipped in this thread.

n/t.

[undergroundpanther]

190. I don't associate with that demographic much

Because it is boring to be around them and they are usually assholes with control issues and have no time to spare running everywhere like frenetic gerbils.But..Every so often and older person sees beyond their own shit,and we have fun socializing.These open minded oldsters look for me when they are at starbucks, They always find me when I go there to read,draw and hang with friends..I'm the one drinking Wawa coffee at starbucks.

[a la izquierda]

221. i've gotten that reaction on here from some folks.

strange.
that's okay, they can piss and moan when their money for johnny or sally's tuition pays my professor's salary.

[mkultra]

203. A sculpture is art, dirt colored doodles are not art.

[Ken Burch]

140. Not always.

And it's not as if anybody's gonna make YOU get one.

[Quantess]

153. All she has to do is wear clothing that covers her tattoos

and take out her piercings. What is the big problem?

I have a bunch of tattoos, but I always cover them at work. People can be really clueless. I was at a 4th of July party in a sleeveless top, and I mentioned to some teachers (prissy ladies that seemed aghast at my tattoos) that I used to be a teacher, too. They were surprised and asked "how could you work in a school?"
Well, gee....think about it. I wear shirts with sleeves, that's how. :eyes: I should have asked them, if you're that dumb, how did you become teachers?

[HEyHEY]

157. Well, the guy was being an asshole, that's for sure, but the point is valid

[onpatrol98]

161. He was really rude...

He could have found a nicer way to express himself. But to my mind, you don't do all that piercing and inking unless you've got a fairly thick skin (no pun intended) and weren't interested in pursuing some fields.

Maybe he should have taken the time to find out what her interests are...and maybe he did. I don't know. If she says, she wants to be a bartender or cook or some other occupation where people aren't going to put off by her method of self-expression, line up those opportunities.

If she says she wants some entry level accounting position, try to explain that those occupations are often inhabited by squares who might find multiple facial piercings and overly obvious tats less than desirable.

To my mind, this is just common sense though. If you seriously want a job...any job, you cover up, take out the piercings, and try a few interviews. If you're fortunate enough to find a place that doesn't mind that look, whip off those clothes and pierce away.

This just doesn't seem like rocket science to me. As for the mother that started her down this road, I wonder if it occurred to her to have this discussion with her daughter.

[Quantess]

240. Thank you. None of this should be "rocket science"

although people really apparetnly do have a hard time wrapping their minds around these new-fangled ideas, LOL.

And, I think he gave her rude and worthless "advice". If he said what you just said, all would be good.

[Odin2005]

166. Assholes! There is nothing wrong with her tattoos and piercings.

[WinkyDink]

225. I hope her prospective employers agree with you. So far, they have not agreed.

[Ter]

179. 23? Looks way older

That hair, eww...

[Maine-ah]

252. how about you post a picture of yourself?

[Ter]

335. I am told I look younger

And when I was 23, I looked a lot younger than her. I'm not making fun of her looks, I'm making fun of a 23 year old who doesn't wash or style her hair. Big difference.

[Maine-ah]

354. what ever makes you feel better about yourself.

how can you tell from that pic?

She looks clean to me. There's no sun, she's outside, and she has very dark hair.

I'm just tired of people being judged around here on appearances.

And at 36 I look younger than her. So what?

[Ter]

367. If someone has naturally bad looks, I wouldn't dream of saying anything negative

But her hair is what hit me right away. It is extremely unkempt, needs a shape-up, and is very straggly. Maybe I just live in too big of a city, but I almost never see a 23 year old woman with unstyled hair. It's like a 60 year old's.

I think she went overboard with piercings and tattoos too, but if it makes her happy that's all that matters.

[minavasht]

189. What kind of job was she looking for?

What was her previous job and why did she lose it? Has she ever had a job before?

At 23 she should have realized that her lifestyle choices have consequences.

[Quantess]

192. It's a lifestyle choice now?

I thought it was about appearance.

You are right that she chose to look that way, but labeling her as having certain "lifestyle choices" is pretty judgmental.

Granted, I don't consider her face piercings to be attractive either, but she doesn't turn into a different person when she removes them. She doesn't turn into a different person when she covers her tattoos, either. This is a concept I find that people have a hard time wrapping their minds around. I know, because I have tattoos that are covered about 85% of the time. Some people have difficulty processing the sight of tattoos on a person they had gotten to know while the ink was concealed. I'm still the same person. It's just silly.

[minavasht]

368. Actually

she said it, not I.

Most people look at piercings and too many tattoos as a form of self-mutilation and think that people who do it are stupid or crazy.
It is like somebody cutting a finger or a toe or a ear to look "better" or different. Would you trust such a person with something other than bagging groceries or bringing drinks to the table?
Would you trust such a person for investment advice? As a neurosurgeon? As a babysitter to your 2-year old? Honestly?

[Morning Dew]

194. I can't believe some of the replies to this thread.

Reading this made me think of the friends I've had over the years who were told not to act "so gay", and of the wonderful, kind, smart transwomen I've known who maybe didn't "pass" very well, struggling to find jobs and just live their lives.

I was in retail management for many years and I would have hired this woman, no problem.

[Ken Burch]

195. I think we found something here that lets a lot of DU'ers get in touch with their inner reactionary

Sad, but not totally surprising.

[Morning Dew]

197. Inner reactionary... that's good, lol.

I prefer people who are at least striving for authenticity in their lives.

Whether that's gender expression or tats or what have you, I'd much rather interact with the "real" person than the "public face" that isn't so real.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

238. so looking like an extra in a Good Charlotte video is "striving for authenticity"

[Posteritatis]

245. I can. DU regularly gets like this over visible piercings/tattoos. (nt)

[Odin2005]

271. I suspect it is mostly Boomers doing the groaning.

I speculate it derives from the "artificial = bad, natural = good" ideology, body mod is seen as an artificial modification of the "natural" body and is thus "evil". For the most part Gen-Xers and us Millennials don't give a shit.

[JerseygirlCT]

291. Except that unlike being gay

this is absolutely a lifestyle choice. And often those choices come with consequences.

She can't control how other people react to her piercings and tats - which it seems is exactly the point.

[TexasObserver]

196. She could work the complaint window at a public utility.

She's got that "can I help you?" look.

[lillypaddle]

198. What does she expect?

Don't people think about these things before they do them?

[mkultra]

202. HOLY CRAP MY EYES!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Name removed]

208. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rucky]

209. Did I just arrive at a Puritan convention?

WTF does any of this have to do with her ability to do a job, besides other people's prejudice?

[laundry_queen]

226. No kidding!

I'm sitting here pretty shocked at the attitude here. Well, I guess it's not overly shocking. I've participated in the fat threads too. I'm really screwed being fat and pierced and tatooed (only 1 tat and nose ring though, but I do want more) and going to school to eventually delve into one of the most square of professions - accountant. Wonder how that's going to go over? lol.

[Pathwalker]

210. Sigh. My Daughter-in-law has several tattoos, and a nose piercing.

I don't know if she's yet gotten the one she had my son design for her by to honor her recently deceased father. I would never have gotten a tattoo, and not just because I absolutely hate needles, but I have always found hers pretty, and besides; as an old liberal, I figure that it's her body, and therefore her choice. She's says I'm the best mother-in-law in the world, and I think she's the best daughter-in-law any mother could hope to have.
Oh, and some of you should definitely never visit my local landscape supply - they all have multiple piercings and tattoos, and the best compost and mulch money can buy! VERY nice people too!

[WinkyDink]

224. This isn't about "choice"; she made hers freely. It isn't about "nice"; she probably is very. It IS

about what an EMPLOYMENT ADVISOR, who presumably knows about the jobs she was seeking, TELLING THIS YOUNG WOMAN AN UNCOMFORTABLE TRUTH AS HE KNOWS IT.

[Quantess]

239. Well, his choice of words was rude, hysterical, and knee-jerk. Not helpful at all.

How difficult would it have been for the advisor to say, "you will have a better chance of getting a job in most places if you remove your piercings and wear clothing that covers your tattoos."

That isn't what he said, though. Basically, he insulted her and told her she had no hope of getting a job, which is ridiculous. If you think this woman can't make herself appear presentable with some easy-fixes, you are kind of clueless.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

241. This guy probably has to deal with dozens of chavs a week...

who are just going through the motions to remain on assistance, sooner or later in the face of endless bullshit anyone will crack,

[A HERETIC I AM]

242. I'm wondering how many of the folks that read your post....

will have any idea what a "Chav" is without Googling it!


Loved the video you posted below, Sir.

Hilarious.

[Odin2005]

274. Thanks for regurgitating RW bigotry against the poor!

:puke:

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

287. Poor? that shit on her face looks expensive

Nobody is commenting on her financial circumstances, their stating that she looks ridiculous and that will hurt her employment prospects.

[Odin2005]

292. This comment is NOT "welfare queen" BS?

"who are just going through the motions to remain on assistance"

That rhetoric is not acceptable for a Progressive board.

[BreweryYardRat]

342. Piercings are actually pretty cheap.

Four facial studs, gauged ears, one set of studs in the ears -- $250 at the absolute maximum. Not expensive unless you're looking at it from a perspective of being flat fucking broke.

[seabeyond]

244. we really dont get all the coversation. and you cant conclude he did not say take piercings out

cover up tats. as a matter of fact, i would guess he did say that. since she says.... she said, piercings would look worse if i took them out.

the only part of the conversation we got, was the part she wanted to share.

[Pathwalker]

357. His CHOICE of words were rude and nasty.

And mean. As evidenced by many replies, there are jobs she could have performed without being subjected to the vitriol of other closed minded people.

[madmom]

212. I worked in the deli of three different stores. We were not even allowed to wear rings or

watches or dangley earrings. The reason was bacteria and other things being trapped under and around. If you are messing with food in anyway it is a concern. We even had to wear plastic gloves and still were not allowed rings.

[dipsydoodle]

217. She not exactly what I'd have called a paper bag job.

Maybe just a bit of a minger.

[Vinca]

223. An employer has the right to hire people who will project whatever

image they happen to want for their company. First impressions do matter. It might be unfair and unjustified, but that's the way it is and people should consider that before permanently decorating themselves.

[The Wizard]

227. She fails the baby sitter test.

Would you let her watch your kids?
She appears strange, and appearance matters.

[wtmusic]

248. Aw, c'mon. Take a risk.

"Tattoos and Body Piercings as Indicators of Adolescent Risk-Taking Behaviors

Results. Participants with tattoos and/or body piercings were more likely to have engaged in risk-taking behaviors and at greater degrees of involvement than those without either. These included disordered eating behavior, gateway drug use, hard drug use, sexual activity, and suicide. Violence was associated with males having tattoos and with females having body piercings. Gateway drug use was associated with younger age of both tattooing and body piercing. Hard drug use was associated with number of body piercings. Suicide was associated with females having tattoos and younger age of both tattooing and body piercing. Tattoos and body piercings were found to be more common in females than males."

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/109/6/1021

[TonyMontana]

250. You're joking. You have to be.

Oh no! Not tattoos and piercings!

How old are you? Because it's actually sad that I have to tell you to grow up.

[seabeyond]

256. read the post above you, 248. i dont think anyone can be so consistently incorrect as you, lol

tis funny

and i was kinda wondering how old you were. not from this thread, but other posts i have seen of yours. another funny, huh.

[Odin2005]

272. If I had kids I would have no problem.

Join the 21st century, please.

[wtmusic]

280. You don't really know until you have them

and you hear horror stories about babysitter-abusers (tattooed & pierced, or not).

And if your kids are abused, you're responsible.

[Odin2005]

281. People with body-mod are child-abusers now?

:eyes:

[wtmusic]

323. Ah, "body-mod".

What's wrong with "piercing and tattoos"? A little too direct?

[Odin2005]

333. It's faster to type.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

234. A video on this subject...

http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1941040

[Zavulon]

247. I wouldn't have said that to her...

...but I certainly would have thought it. I wouldn't hire her to watch my Doberman.

The piercings look worse when they're out? Not a good sign.

I will NEVER understand why people do that to themselves.

[TonyMontana]

249. Her tattoos make her a bad and incompetent person

Doesn't everybody know that?

:sarcasm:

Add me to the list of people who are waiting for all the old people to die already. No offense to all the old people here who are actually not prejudiced assholes.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

254. it certainly reflects poorly on her judgement and professionalism

It isn't "old people", I am sure you could find a toddler who might also suggest the bag approach.

[Odin2005]

275. Bullshit.

[Ken Burch]

285. If Sobchak had ink, it would read "BORN TO ENFORCE GROOMING CODES".

n/t.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

299. Grooming isn't the issue, shrapnel is.

[Ken Burch]

328. Piercing ISN'T shrapnel.

It's just another way to wear jewelry. Nice right-wing attitude there.

It's the OTHER party that's supposed to be pro-enforced conformity. It never does OUR party any good to go along with that kind of thinking.

People who obsess about what other people LOOK like, before they think about anything else, are not going to listen to progressive ideas about anything.

And the people who look different are much more likely to be available voters for us than the people who can't tolerate anyone looking different ever would be.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

336. I don't care how people choose to disfigure themselves,

I understand cutting your tongue in half is the latest trend, just don't complain when your refusal to accept the most elementary of social norms (looking vaguely human) results in reduced employment and social opportunities.

[seabeyond]

337. oh, my son tonight told me about a guy on tv. the tattoos and piercing, but started telilng me

about splitting the tongue and was.... ENOUGH. i dont need to hear anymore. i didnt knwo that was becoming a fad. funny

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

338. my girlfriend sent me a link to a YouTube video a few months ago

of a girl who had about the first inch of her tongue split, it is apparently common enough the military has explicitly banned it. She knows I am grossed out my pierced tongues and was just pushing my buttons,

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

286. I recruit for a legal and accounting firm

You think that look is acceptable in such an environment? Just a few weeks ago I didn't hire a woman because she had a pierced tongue. People who look trashy would reflect poorly on us, we have had to read the riot act to a number of employees who thought showing up for work dressed for the beach or nightclub was appropriate.

The tattoo's are barely an issue here, this chick looks like she selflessly threw her face on a landmine.

[Odin2005]

290. That you think such people are "trashy" says a lot about you.

And shows the disgusting and insidious nature of Classist attitudes in general. Body Mod is for "THOSE people" not for "we in polite society".

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

295. Yes, the canidate with the pierced tongue was very trashy, she was also ivy leauge

The poor tend to be too busy trying to survive to waste their time and money making a spectacle of themselves so others might cringe and clutch their pearls. While these characters tend to be suburban assholes still tripping over themselves to rebel against their parents well into their 20's.

[Odin2005]

309. If she was qualified for the job then hire her. Do piercings get in the way of lawyering?

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

317. accountant, not lawyer,

and as a matter of fact she fidgeted with the stupid thing the entire time and seemed quite intent on making sure I noticed it was there. A tongue piercing and what it "says" isn't appropriate in a professional office.

[Odin2005]

320. Well THAT certainly would be grounds for not hiring her.

Not because of the piercing, but the way she "made sure it was noticed" indicates a temperament not suitable for an accounting job.

[Quantess]

258. No kidding!

Step aside, grandpa. Nobody likes your comb-over.
Granny, get out of here with your "mom jeans" and your bad perm.
:rofl:

Oh, the fashion police are at it again. This time it's the old and uptight.

[seabeyond]

259. ohhh, you got me. hands over heart, staggering back. you called me.... old

rollin eyes, lol lol

well, not me personally, but i get you barb.

[Quantess]

263. Hey, we're all getting older.

Nobody said getting older has to mean getting uptight and judgmental about appearance, though.

I'll never pierce my face, but... I'm never going to choose fashions that make me look older than I am, or make me look frumpy, either. I can't decide which of those options would be worse. Face piercings are so easy for people to criticize, but maybe we should all take a look in the mirror before judging someone else's fashion.

Oh, and has it ever occurred to older job seekers that maybe updating their wardrobe and hairstyle might make them more employable? See how that works?

[seabeyond]

264. you are so funny. but but but i thought appearance wasnt what it is all about

why, oh why are you harping on older peoples appearance. lol. hm

[Quantess]

268. I never said that! It IS about appearance, as far as I'm concerned. Hence, my "fashion police"

comment. What is this thread about, except appearances? I don't understand your comment.

What are you so defensive about? Oh, so you don't want any whippersnapper snickering about your outdated looks? Seriously, I have just as much right to think that someone looks frumpy in their mom jeans as you do to say that the kids these days look like they fell into a tackle box. However, I'm more diplomatic about it, and I keep my judgments to myself. All it is, is fashion policing.

But really, older job seekers would be wise to spruce up their appearances as well. Since clearly, there are so many judgemental people out there! (hint, hint)

I'm almost 40, so I'm not exactly a spring chicken. You won't catch me dressing like a middle aged suburbanite milquetoast, though. I happen to have plenty of tattoos, but most people don't know that, because they only see the light of day about 10% of the time. Thank goodness people aren't as reactionary in the Pacific NW as they are in some places.

[seabeyond]

269. what an absurd post. i haven't said anything about the womans appearance. it is her business

i. dont. care.

i dont care how an old person dresses either.

i haven't said anything about toolboxes as you claim i did.

you are clueless how old i am, or how i dress. whenever an anonymous person starts telling me who i am it becomes a joke. you know, as in laughable. why? cause you dont know. i simply thought it was funny that the best you had was .... waaaaaa, you are old. like what? you got me. i am devastated. geeesh.

there is nothing in your posts about keeping your judgments to yourself, nor being diplomatic about shit since you clearly expressed your jabs and insults all over the place. suburbanite milquetoast.

this is what i so often see on these threads. the people claiming to be picked on end up being so much worse in exactly what they are claiming is done to them.

most posters on this thread really does not care what this and others do to their body. most everyone on here is saying what the repercussions will be, if a person makes that choice. that is a reality. it is a simple truth. it is not judging anyone, cause most all of us dont give a shit.

but, if a person points out the reality... then you reduce yourself to a whole lot of ugly, in outrage.

go for it. go at it. do your best.... cause it really does not matter what you think of how an old person dresses anymore than it matters what anyone thinks of this woman's dress. it is ours to do. but each and every one of us makes a statement in how we chose to present ourselves.

[Quantess]

315. What the heck are you so angry about?

And who said ANY of my comments, besides the one I replied to, had you in mind?

Of course I don't know your age or what you look like! I never claimed to. I said that I have no intention of dressing like a suburbanite milquetoast.

Go back and look over what I posted if necessary, and see that you're overreacting for no real reason, and imagining yourself to be a target. Please, calm down. I might have to put you on ignore if you're that paranoid. I promise I'm not attacking you.

I have no idea why this topic is so upsetting to you. But really the bottom line is that, if someone is going to get advice about how to look more presentable to employers, there is no need to be rude about it, like this man was to this young woman. Just as, it would be rude to say to an older job seeker "you looked like you stepped out of a time machine from 1992, Rip Van Winkle!" (note that that was not directed at you personally).

[seabeyond]

322. you know, i have told you a couple posts i am not angry.

that i found it amusing. there was certainly humor in my post. yet every post you are addressing my anger. telling me to calm down. dont be upset. when i assure you i have yet to be any of those things. then... you tell me you will have to put me on ignore if i cant calm down.

do you think that might be a litte, just a tad.... irritating. granted, you dont have a clue about my emotions, again, since we are on the net and you are clueless. yet again, you are telling me my emotion, even after i tell you i am not angry.

what is that?

anyway... i dont need to go any further on this conversation. we are not doing well in connecting in our communication. it totally lacks
(note, this is calm. not upset, angry or mad)

[Quantess]

351. Looks we misunderstood each other.

I'm moving on. :hi:

[Liberal_in_LA]

253. She doesn't have THAT many tattoes, the piercings are a bit much though

Her tats could be covered up

[TheBigotBasher]

257. This thread has really descended in to not much more than a rampant display of sexism.

The reality is that this article is from The Daily Telegraph, whichshould now be called teh Daily Baggergraph. It has an agenda to destroy the Conservative / Lib Dem alliance government because it is not right wing enough. So it needs to be taken with a pinch of salt.

The Jobcentre Plus employee is required by law and by their employment conditions to advise those claiming Jobseekers Allowance on appearance so that those out of work "can be helped find a job". The rules are strict and if the "jobseeker" does not comply with that they lose benefit.

That is the law.

Being told that is likely to have upset the woman in question. She went to the paper. How much of that story is now embellished by both her and by

Fine, comment on her employability as someone who is tattooed and pierced, but really we should not be seeing comments about her being a minger or other such trash.

The thing that should set alarm bills ringing about the accuracy of this story is the "lifestyle choice" comment.

It plays right in to the hands of the British Chancellor;

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/sep/09/george-osborne-cut-4bn-benefits-welfare

who is currently battling the Social Security Secretary.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11310951

[xxqqqzme]

261. Our local Target has clerks/cashiers

that look very much like her (add colored hair streaks as well).

[uncommon]

262. What did she expect? Whether or not it's fair, this image is not desirable in most workplaces.

And frankly, I would be unlikely to hire someone for a serious position looking like this.

[Odin2005]

276. Your attitude is part of the problem.

"I would be unlikely to hire someone for a serious position looking like this."

:puke:

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

288. Would you hire somebody who refused to shower?

Basic expectations here,

[Odin2005]

293. Wow, you think body mod is equivalent to not showering?

Wow, just wow, I am fucking speechless. :puke:

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

298. both are making their presence offensive to others

With the exception of the TSA and Comcast not many places are looking for that vibe.

[Odin2005]

300. Wow, just like how blacks were offensive to segregationists for stting in the wrong place?

:puke:

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

303. Not even similar,

You can't control your ethnicity, you can control your personal hygiene and the presence of foreign objects in your face.

[Odin2005]

306. There you go again, equating piercings with being dirty.

And control has nothing to do with it. As long as the piercings or tattoos do not strictly interfere with the person doing the job the employer should STFU. Most complains about body mod are prejudice that has nothing to do with ability to do the job.

[seabeyond]

308. baggies, holey jeans. old tshirts. really, won't effect the job. the employer should STFU?

really? lol.

well, not gonna happen. now what?

[Odin2005]

314. Holey jeans would be a safety hazzard on many jobs.

And a dress code is different than banning anyone with a tattoo or piercings. I know a lot of people with tattoos and piercings in perfectly normal, "square" jobs.

[Ken Burch]

339. Well, it would depend WHERE the holes on the jeans were...

:eyes:

But piercing doesn't equal sloppy. It's really just a different way of wearing jewelry.

[wtmusic]

326. You naively ignore the fact that her appearance *is* part of her job

if she has any contact with the public. Her employer can't afford to.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

366. Right-wingers love saying liberals "don't bathe". -nt

[uncommon]

360. Oh good fucking grief - black does not = heavily pierced by choice.

[uncommon]

359. Puke all you want - I don't find it appealing or professional. I'm sure some disagree.

I still think the Jobcenter rep was a douche for treating her like that.

[Chan790]

267. I'm just going to say...

as a person with hiring authority in my current position, my hiring guidelines explicitly forbid me from hiring her or anybody with visible body modification, in or out.

[Odin2005]

278. I happen to know a heavily tattooed guy, he is a vegan and a pacifist and...

...works with the disabled.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight_edge

[Taverner]

279. She's hot

Hell, she should learn C and Python - she could be a millionaire

[Renew Deal]

283. Appearance is a very important part of business

She has to be pretty uniquely skilled for employers to get past that look.

[Odin2005]

294. If they are "not passed" it they need to grow up and get into the 21st Century.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

296. right... it is the people who don't theatrically mutilate themselves who need to grow up

[Odin2005]

301. You have been realing exposing your true colors in this thread.

It's not pretty.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

304. what true colors are those? "employed" ? "professional" ?

When an individual goes to extreme ends to draw excessive attention to themselves, they shouldn't be surprised if it much of it is negative. And conforming to the images in a Good Charlotte video is conformity all its own.

[seabeyond]

305. a lot of kids do it to be outside mainstream. and then when they are outside mainstream

they are pissed.

at least when i was outside of mainstream, i didnt expect to be accepted in it, too. sheeeit, i still don't.

[wtmusic]

324. +1

Reality is a bitch.

[seabeyond]

329. Reality is a bitch.... word. nt

[uncommon]

361. Very good response.

They get exactly what they wanted.

[Odin2005]

310. that should be irrelevent, the only relevent question is "can the person do the job?".

If the person's body mod cannot be objectively shown to interfere with their job then it is none of your business.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

313. "Can you bring in business to a legal and accounting firm?"

I wouldn't think so...

[Odin2005]

316. The gal in the OP's piercings are nowhere near that guy's

:eyes:

And if that guy did want to get a job there he would remove most of them, I am sure.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

318. When you have a ton of metal in your face, quantity doesn't really come into it

[apocalypsehow]

344. You special plead a lot. A whole bunch, in fact.

:eyes: , indeed.

[wtmusic]

332. "Have you had any bad experiences with metal detectors?" nt

[Evoman]

349. I don't know if I agree with you (at least not completely)

But man are you ever fucking funny. I appreciate that more than anything, lol.

[GreenArrow]

369. Oh, it's total conformity at this point,

seasoned with more than a smattering of narcissism.

[Tsiyu]

370. As are so many things

Like...McMansions, breast augmentation, eyelid lifts, spray tans, fast, shiny cars on thin little tires and Facebook accounts.


WooHoo! :woohoo:

[flvegan]

297. This thread went about as expected.

[Tsiyu]

364. I had no idea

I never indulged in one before.

As a kid way, way back in the 60's, I vowed that I would never be like the assholes I knew back then who absolutely hated anyone who deviated from the "square" look.

Since I knew the "hippies" and the "liberal Democrats" and they were great people, I knew the judgments against them were bullshit.

Plenty of them found jobs, though many of the jobs were outside the Establishment, as The Mainstream was called back then.

It's like deja vu on this thread...so many living in the Ward and June Cleaver/Father Knows Best fantasy.

I'm very grateful for the people my age who made the same vow I did....

[Freetradesucks]

302. Sorry, but that advisor was probably the first person,

to speak the truth to her. If you want to fuck up your face like that, don't expect to get a "normal" job. Nobody wants to look at that shit, and everyone will think (probably not too far off the mark) that you are psycho.

I would say that 99% of people that do that to themselves get jobs like tattoo artist, etc...where they know that nobody cares about their tats and piercings.

For this girl to somehow be shocked that she can't get a job at the local bank is laughable.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

307. welcome to the wonderful world of millennials

feel free to shoot them in the back of the head, just don't you dare hurt their feelings.

[Ken Burch]

330. It's almost NEVER necessary to hurt anyone's feelings

just to get them to make changes about themselves. And those DOING the hurting are almost never actually entitled to do so-it's just a chance to take a little power over someone else by belittling them.

[wtmusic]

331. True.

He could have said, "Because of public perceptions of piercings and tattoos, there are some professions in which you'll have trouble getting work." And then work with her to find suitable employment.

That seems pretty obvious, but everyone comes from a different background.

[Freetradesucks]

371. If that girl really thought she could walk in there

and get hired in front of others seeking jobs, with that stuff in her face and tattoos all up and down her arms, she was clearly delusional. I think perhaps her mommy told her she was special one too many times, and apparently "rewarded" her with her first tattoo.

We live in a society where there are accepted norms in the business community. You don't have a right to be hired, but please feel free to live your life as you see fit.

[Odin2005]

311. Yes, we know you want us youngins off yer lawn.

:eyes:

[RandomThoughts]

325. I think that is a miss perception.

It is when people come and have a barbecue on your lawn, with beer and good fun, then they tell you to go into your house and stay there


:wtf: is that????

Shrug, So you watch from the window as the rain comes in, and like with so many people, the owner gives them shelter when the rain gets heavy. And then when the rain stops, they go outside and tell the guy with the house to stay in the house again.

LOL, it is sad, but pretty accurate when you think of it.

It gets to the point that even those that think it is everyone's yard, still want it for themselves, that is really sad.

[BreweryYardRat]

341. The guy was a douchesock about it.

Bad fucking attitude from a public servant.

Here's how to phrase it: A lot of cities and towns in the US are backwards shitholes with a regressive attitude toward body mods. If you're unfortunate enough to be temporarily stuck in one of these shitholes (like me), then you've got to make concessions to the prevailing social attitudes if you want to get a job. Remove the piercings and let them heal over, make sure your ink's covered, get the job. Then you can save up, move somewhere not dominated by aging reactionaries, replace your piercings, and start showing your ink again. (Say, Portland.)

I'm sure that applies equally to the UK as well.

[Ken Burch]

347. That's a far better approach than that guy used.

And thanks for giving us(or helping to pass on, as the case may be)a magnificently descriptive word like "douchesock".

[BreweryYardRat]

372. You're welcome.

;)

I don't think I can claim the credit for "douchesock", but I've forgotten where I originally got it.

[apocalypsehow]

343. If I walked into a business and saw that person as the representative of the place I was thinking

about doing business with, I'd turn around and walk out.

She deserves to be discriminated against in employment - she made these choices to mutilate a very visible part of her body, to wit, her face, rather than having these choices made for her do to circumstances of birth, gender, sexual orientation, etc. The latter are rightly protected categories of non-discrimination law precisely because they protect innate, immutable characteristics of the individual human being. Voluntarily chopping your face up doesn't get to count in those inviolable categories of protected status, or law.

[Odin2005]

345. Your attitude is part of the problem.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

356. Are There Any Modifications

Are there any modifications a person can make to their bodies that would make them ineligible for certain types of employment. I am really conflicted about her situation.

[Odin2005]

365. If it is over-the-top, sure; but this gals's are not over-the top.

They are pretty tame, actually. But the employment agency guy could have just said that there are some backwards employers that may not hire her because of her tattoos and piercings, he didn't have to insult and humiliate her.

[sparkie]

348. Would You

Ok there is a lot of comments on this particular story. It may have some truth it may not but would any of you who are employers give her a job looking like that. I am unemployed at the moment and getting a job is not easy, for every post advertised their are 240 applicants what chance do you think she stands? I don't want to insult her or speak down to her as she should really be given the chance to defend herself personally, as should the adviser but it is my opinion that this is a little publicity stunt to make the DWP pay out compensation for the so-called comments, which have now left her mentally scared, I don't think so, making it impossible for her to get a job or when I get my compensation I will not have to work again attitude. She should have her benefits stopped until she at least gets rid of those stupid piercings and covers up or has the tattoos removed.

[Evoman]

350. I'd totally hire a Reaver.....what happened on Miranda wasn't their fault.

Why are you guys so anti-reaver?

[Cleanelec]

363. I would suggest

...a double bag. In case the first one breaks. :rofl: