Should children be allowed to wear anti-gay shirts in a public school?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

At the airport today, I read a Times article about free speech in schools and whether or not clothing was protected. They mentioned one incident near my home where a student wore a shirt that said "Be Happy-Not Gay" after the Day of Silence. The school made the student change the shirt to say "Be Happy-Be Straight". The girl sued the school because she said her freedom of speech was violated.

I'm torn on this issue. I believe in freedom of speech and I know that with the freedom comes things that we will not like. That's fine for adults. However, I also feel that children are entitled to feel safe and happy in their schools. We know that sexual orientation and gender are not choices. How can a gay child get a good education with hate coming in from the classmates? It would be like expecting a black child to be able to concentrate on education with a classmate wearing a shirt that said "I hate n******".

I'm not a parent. I don't plan on having children. I would like more thoughts on this issue, so I ask DU.

Edit To Add Link:
http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/308282,CST-NWS-gay22.article

[mrcheerful]

1. The thing is its not free speach in a school enviroment, all schools have dress codes of sorts

yet think about if the shirt had "BE Happy- Not Black", or Jewish or Polish or poor. Same thing in my humble opinion.

[rurallib]

2. Ever wonder how a teacher gets anything taught?

The above are good arguments for school uniforms.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

3. Schools Are Allowed To Set Policy Determining What Is Or Isn't Offensive To Their Environment.

Free speech does not apply there. If the shirt is something that can potentially be disruptive (any shirt) then the school has every right to apply whatever rules and guidelines it deems necessary.

[rocktivity]

4. I see no difference between "I hate (insert slur)" and "Don't be (insert sexual preference)"

Hate speech is not free speech, and discrimination is illegal in public schools.


rocknation

[karlrschneider]

6. I'm waiting for some kid to show up with "Don't be Jewish" on his shirt.

:grr:

[havocmom]

34. Or 'Don't be Christian'

for that matter.

Bet there would be a HUGH!!1! & SERIES!1!!11! outcry against that 'free speech' on school grounds. ;)

[SayWhatYo]

69. On the flipside...

there would be many who are against the t-shirt mentioned above, who would be in support of a t-shirt that said "don't be Christian"

If I was in charge of a school I would not allow for any such t-shirts. However, if I wasn't part of a school in anyway, and no stake in the school, then I would only wish that they would be consistent with whatever they decide.

[Perky]

57. I think there is a difference bwtween the two

"don't be" is no necessarily hateful. It is simply advocating a belief and does not necessary connote intolerance.

"I hate" anything is intolerant on its face.

see my other post

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=919885&mesg_id=922734

[rocktivity]

60. "Clean, not a junkie" and "Don't be a junkie" are fine

because no one SHOULD be a junkie. "Happy, not gay" and "Be happy--be straight" are not because they suggest that gays who ARE happy SHOULDN'T be. While they don't advocate violence or hatred, those messages DO advocate intolerance.

:headbang:
rocknation

[Crunchy Frog]

5. As long as it's also OK to wear

anti-Christian t-shirts, anti-Jewish t-shirts, anti-black t-shirts, and anti-anything else. If those other ones aren't allowed, then the anti-gay ones shouldn't be either. I don't see why special exemptions should be made for kids who are bigoted against gays, but not other kinds of bigoted kids.

[Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel]

7. right on the mark!

:hi:

[bigwillq]

8. I so agree with you.

:thumbsup:

[BlooInBloo]

67. i know RIGHT? Christians are persecuted in America just as much as anyone!

It sooooo makes sense to mention them along with gay, black, and jewish folks!


EDIT: Spelling typo in subject.

[Crunchy Frog]

68. Well, they certainly like to PRETEND

that they think they're being persecuted. In any event, I imagine that they would be screaming bloody murder if a kid was wearing an anti-Christian t-shirt in class.

[man4allcats]

9. What is free speech?

Is it the freedom to yell "Fire!" in a crowded theater when there is no fire? Bigoted speech is just as incendiary and has no place in the school or work place where people are not free to simply walk away from it if they are offended. If you're out in the general public and you want to behave like a jackass, fine. That's your business. You're free to do so, but don't be too surprised if somebody calls you a jackass or worse. If you're in that crowded theater though (or school or work place), you'd best remember that freedom of speech doesn't come with a license to be reckless.

[orleans]

10. this is totally fucked up. the original "be happy not gay" and the follow-up

school approved "be happy be straight."

as a parent i would have gone into the school office and asked what the hell they thought they were doing with that one.

allowing this type of shit is unacceptable.

next stop: the school board.

sounds like the school could use a good club for gay students & friends of gay students. if i remember correctly, that type of club at my daughter's school was called spectrum.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

12. I agree with that. It literally made me sick to my stomach. Here is the link to the story

http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/308282,CST-NWS-gay22.article

I think "Be Happy Be Straight" is just as awful as "Be Happy Not Gay".

[orleans]

24. oh my god--your op stated the article was in the "times" and now when

i click on the link you gave me i see it is in the chicago sun times. and i see it is a high school that i am familiar with! not in my town, but in a neighboring suburb (naperville illinois). i know some kids who go there (friends of my daughter), and my perception of this school is that it tries to be "progressive" (besides being located in a upper middle class/upper class area). it's kind of a money/snooty town. this county has been known as extremely red/conservative for years....but the landscape is changing...thank god.

naperville is the place bush/cheney were at when the mic was on and bush called a reporter a major league asshole.

Sept. 4, 2000 | At a Labor Day event in Naperville, Ill., Monday morning, apparently oblivious of the microphone just inches from his mouth, Gov. George W. Bush made a crude offhand remark about a reporter that those in the campaign of his rival, Vice President Al Gore, hope will take some of the shine off Bush's warm and sunny veneer.

Waving and smiling to the crowds, Bush and his running mate, former Defense Secretary Dick Cheney, seemed to be enjoying the generous reception offered by the Republican enclave in the Chicago suburbs.

Then Bush spotted New York Times reporter Adam Clymer, who has been with the paper since 1977, serving as national political correspondent during the 1980 presidential race, as polling editor from 1983 to 1990 and as political editor during the successful presidential campaign of Bush's father in 1988.

"There's Adam Clymer -- major league asshole -- from the New York Times," Bush said.

"Yeah, big time," returned Cheney.
http://archive.salon.com/politics/feature/2000/09/04/cuss_word/

i think it is great they have been observing the day of silence for the past 11 years. and although the principle agreed to change the shirt to be happy be straight, note this:

Linda Zamecnik and Wells agreed Wells could alter the shirt's message to read "Be Happy. Be Straight."
But the suit says the agreement was broken when a school counselor crossed out "NOT GAY" in black marker but nothing replaced it.

The suit says Linda Zamecnik discussed the issue with the principal and superintendent and was told that staff had done nothing wrong.

The suit says Heidi suffered unlawful discrimination, humiliation and punishment by school personnel merely because they didn't agree with her viewpoint.

so little heidi didn't wear anything that day? maybe heidi should grow up a little and realize that no one wants to have to put up with her intolerant shit attitudes.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

26. I went to H.S. near Naperville (Lisle actually)

I hated it. One kid was punched in the face because he was going to vote Democratic. The worst story I have though, was in Freshman year, at a basketball game we were playing a poorer school. My school was a wealthy school. Either you got in by good grades and good entrance exams OR you got in by money. The poorer school was creaming my school when a chant started up in the bleachers. Students from my school started chanting "That's ok! That's ok! You will work for us someday!".

[orleans]

27. btw--the club at my daughter's school was called prism and

neuqua in naperville started a similar after school club last year or the year before but i don't remember what the name of it was. (your old school sounds like the one across the road from sacred heart, starts with the letter "b"--some of my daughter's friends went there as well.)

[Warpy]

11. Hate speech should not be tolerated, no matter where it is

The shirt was a little borderline, but it's inappropriate for school.

In fact, I think all t-shirts with writing on them are inappropriate, not to mention just plain tacky.

[proud2BlibKansan]

13. No

[izzie]

14. No they should be in uniforms. All alike. Frankly it would be

cheaper for the parents and easy. I wore a uniform for years at camp and it did not hurt me at all. Let them wear the shirts at the mall or some other place.

[Robson]

15. That's too much common sense for one post.

Uniforms for all public school students makes sense on all fronts. They would benefit students and take the peer pressure off them and their parents and the pocketbook.

School should be to learn reading, writing, and arithmetic and to mature, not to learn the frivolity and shallowness that designer clothes offer.

And I agree that no t-shirts with messages for school students to disrupt the classrooom regardless of the message. There are probably some that would wear "be gay not straight" just as well as the "be happy, not gay". None belong in school.

[izzie]

28. Not that it worked right for me but this is what I told my children

First you must get an education to learn how to live in a society. Learn the rules and do them. Make a living and not become a drag on society, pull your own weight and get alone. After that you can be weird if it does not hurt others. I must say it took years for them and my self to get all that into the right order.

[KiraBS]

29. Agreed if you have school uniform, you get sent home

if you violate the uniform rules and detention too.
Americans often have this strange idea that clothes equal individuality and stifles
children. But in the most kids wear school uniform from primary school until they are 16, yet
they children are still individuals, with characters, talents, bad behaviour and have to express themselves in other ways than their clothes. Often trainers are banned to except for sports too, to stop that competitive crap. Oh and in the UK I think someone wearing a t-shirt that is clearly inflammatory will get them into trouble, sent home or something.

[donco6]

41. As a school administrator, I agree.

I would love to get uniforms implemented districtwide. It would cut down on a huge number of stupid senseless distractions. But at some schools, our parents just won't support it. Why? I dunno . . . perhaps there's just a core group of more individualistic parents who just do not and never will like the idea of "uniformity" in general. But we've tried it and it didn't fly. Some schools - no problem at all; others, fights, letters to the editor, TV stations filming board meetings, kids protesting, etc. etc. It's almost impossible to gauge the reaction.

[izzie]

66. We almost wore uniforms when I was in high school . We looked alike

But still it was a problem for poor children to dress well and they knew it. That is the part I do not like. If every one wore uniforms the 'keeping with the Jones' would be gone and that would be good for school hours. It would also be better on mother's pocket book to dress them. After school let them do as they like. We had to come home and get into play clothing before we could do a thing. I can recall my sister going in front of the school board as she wished to wear slacks to school and girls could not do that. This was in the late 40's and high school years. Her point was we had to walk just under a mile to get the bus and it was cold. We grew up on the coast of Maine. They let her do it. In grade school we lived 1 mile and we had no bus so it was cold also but they made you take off your ski pants in the hall if you came to school in them. Most women did not wear slacks any how and my mother used to wear riding pants and really got picked on about it but she did not care.

[SayWhatYo]

70. School uniforms are great.

back when I was in middle school we had school uniforms. I used to pretend I didn't like them, but I actually did. It made it easier to get dressed in the morning and it took away of a lot extra unneeded crap from class.

I never really understood why people are against school uniforms. Maybe someone can explain the anti-school uniform POV.

[bluerum]

16. Hate speech is not free speech. eom

[mitchtv]

17. "so many Christians... so few lions"

would that be permitted?

[man4allcats]

18. Probably not,

but I like it.


Impeach the Bastids!

[Nikki Stone1]

20. Can I steal that? :)

:)

[mitchtv]

23. already on tee shirts

A friend has one

[Nikki Stone1]

43. Damn! I do like it though.

:)

[SayWhatYo]

71. Are you serious?

Damn, I actually thought that was an original idea of mine. HM, I wonder if I saw it somewhere else and just forgot about it, but then it popped into my head and I thought it was mine.

[Madspirit]

22. I LOVE that....n/t

[Perky]

54. A somewhat qualified "no"

I think there is a bit of a difference between advocating straightness (be happy, not gay) and advocating persecution (so many Christians, so few lions)

If a shirt says "beat up a lesbian" or beat up a christian, I think both should be banned and the kid suspended.

But if a shirt said "I am a Proud Satanist", "I am a proud atheist" I am a proud lesbian it fine.

If a shirt said "Christians do not have all the answers" I think that is fine or if a shirt said "be joyful, not Christian it would be fine.

People are absolutely entitled to their opinions, they are not entitled to advocate violence.

Advocating hatred is a little different in that it can be subjective. I'm all for freedom of expression except when it designed to inflict pain, emotional or physical.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

58. But you can choose to be atheist, christian, satanist, etc.

You can't choose your sexuality. Shirts that say "proud lesbian" are just a way of saying that it is ok to be yourself. Shirts that say "proud hetero" are just spreading hate. Everyone knows it's OK to be straight! The argument this girl would use, that people say "proud to be gay" therefore she should be able to have a shirt that says "proud to be straight" to me, is the same as whites who want to have some sort of white NAACP or something. The whole institution is pro-straight!

[Zhade]

61. Actually, one does NOT choose to be an atheist. I certainly didn't.

It's the de facto null position one finds oneself in after not buying into any religion at all.

Otherwise, I agree with your post. Sadly, some cannot see past their religious bias to understand that it's WRONG to intimate that being gay is bad.

If the shirt had said "be happy, be white", I think they'd understand.

I hope so, anyway!

[SemiCharmedQuark]

65. I was hesitant about including atheism in there.

I apologize for that.

[rucky]

19. If other kids are forced to go to school with the bigots...

then, no. Right to free speech infringing on right to safe school environment.

[Madspirit]

21. Ahhhhh

Jeez...would it be OK if she wore a t-shirt that said..."yay, I'm not black."

Give me a break.
Lee

[undergroundpanther]

25. It's ok as long as I can call them fucking assholes

and tell them to fuck off and die in their fascist little faces and not be in trouble for it.And if they punch me I should be permitted to beat the tar out of them in self defense..Because some things are provoking and divisive and some people like spreading and advertising hate.It's part of their fucked personality.

Besides why the fuck does anyone need to advertise who they HATE on a T shirt at SCHOOL? Isn't that a way of asking for a fight with the targeted group? Yes.

What if I wore mean anti Hetero shirts or anti christian slogans on a shirt that were insulting? ON PURPOSE ..Would that piss christian and straight people off? Yes it would!! Would I be provoking confrontation in a place that is supposed to be a safe place to LEARN,Yes.So why exactly do these little gay bashing fucks think they are an exception to this normal defensive reaction that most people have against being targeted by haters ..when these straight christians wear their hate as an advertisement? Who exactly are they speaking to?? They want gays to feel bad and threatened that's what they are doing.That's why people react to their hate slogans.
To claim any other rationale for wearing that kind of hate shit on a shirt to school is pure bullshit.

[gollygee]

30. No

Kids don't have complete freedom while they're in school. They can't wear clothing that might be disruptive.

[spoony]

59. Spot on.

[Matsubara]

31. I'm pretty anti-pc, but I have to say - NO.

Aside from the fact that heterosexuality is anything BUT a surefire way to be happy.

and aside from the fact that even if they engage strictly in hetero sex, gays will still be gay, and bi people will still be bi...


I think that T-shirts attacking any group, ethnic, sexual, whatever, are inappropriate in school.

This one may not be exactly an "attacK", but it's hurtful, and it doesn't make sense.

It's like wearing a shirt that says "Be happy, be white". Or "Be happy, be a gentile".

It's basically a way of asserting one group's supremacy over others.

It's smug, shitty and nasty.

Now, that's not to say I think Christians should be forced to accept homosexual behavior.

If their reading of the Bible tells them it's a sin, then they are entitled to teach that in their churches and tell their gay members to get married to a member of the opposite sex, no matter how miserable and mental it might make them. That falls under freedom of religion.

And those same gay members are entitled to leave and find a sane church. For some reason, many don't, which blows my mind. Shouldn't religion be about the search for true happiness in life?

[rasputin1952]

32. Statements like those on her T-Shirt inherently have a msg

that is one of intolerance. Intolerance usually moves to physical violence, therefore, I feel that her wearing the T is promoting a view that cold have tragic consequences. Many people harbor negative feelings toward all types of things, sometimes, all it takes is a public display to move them to negative action. It is quite sad that most people can't leave others alone, to be themselves w/o any harassment ot threat....:(

The base line question here is, do gay individuals directly affect this young girl? I doubt she has been harassed, and in virtually every instance, people go into areas of which they have no business being there in the first place. Unless this girl was attacked and assaulted by a group of lesbians, she has no dog in this fight; and if she was...:eyes: she needs to report it and take legal action.

[Matsubara]

33. Sad thing is, she's probably a product of heavy parental brainwashing.

:(

[havocmom]

35. Could even be a Young (closeted) Republican

:shrug:

[rasputin1952]

36. Yes...it is indeed sad that the influence of parents can be so

negative. But such is life, I learned long ago that tolerance is more of a gift than a taught asset.

[dysfunctional press]

37. schools should have uniforms. period.

nt

[donco6]

40. Often, parents won't go for that.

Why? I dunno. We had a huge fight here last year over implementing uniforms at one school. All over the news. Kids protesting. Parents screaming at administrators. It was quite ugly.

We've done it at other schools with nary a whimper. Go figger. . .

[dysfunctional press]

45. the parents who don't like uniforms can homeschool their kids...

i'll bet their opinions on uniforms would chang real quick.

uniforms in school make sense- they help level the social playing field, and they make it easier and cheaper for parents.

[donco6]

48. I agree on the uniforms . . .

And for our schools it keeps the gang colors way down. Doesn't mean they don't try other identifiers, but at least we can keep them out of the hoodies, hats, doorags, etc. It was the "no hoodies" that really made the kids/parents mad . . .


But we do have a constitutional mandate to provide a free and appropriate public education. So I don't know if the "uniforms or homeschool" thing can really work.

[Orsino]

38. When they reach adulthood...

...and aren't required by law to be in a building I paid for, and demonstrate the courage to give up bullying a persecuted minority, I'll be all for their flexing their free-speech muscles.

[donco6]

39. Not if it disrupts the learning environment.

See Tinker v. Des Moines.

It's as wrong as shirts here in Colorado that have a big "X" through a Mexican flag.

[davsand]

42. Civil rights for minors are what the adults want to grant them.

Legally, it seems to me that there ARE no real civil rights for kids beyond what the adults want them to have. Schools have the right to search lockers and desks, they have the right to lock kids (and staff!) in the school in specific situations, and they have the ability to limit what gets published in student publications. You have an ongoing debate right here in this thread about the requirement of uniforms in schools...

These are publicly funded institutions, and they are run by human beings who are doing the best they can (in most cases, anyhow) with limited resources and sometimes a complete lack of parental support. I think that on a practical level they need to have the right to dictate specific things in order to keep peace and provide for a safe functional environment.

Frankly, I see this entire discussion as being rooted in an attempt to dictate taste. Just as I am offended by a kid in a shirt that carries hate speech, I'm also offended by a kid wearing a shirt that carries a commercial message for places like Walmart or products like Coke--but that is MY opinion. I honestly think there are too many families out there where kids are left with no direction at all, but again--that is MY opinion and I can't dictate it to any other family. The school, however, can and probably should.


Just my two cents.


Laura

[Unvanguard]

44. Absolutely not. Bigotry should not be tolerated at school. n/t

[Jed Dilligan]

46. All schools have dress codes

If they didn't, you'd have girls showing up in lingerie and boys in speedos. It's well within the rights of the school to limit offensive speech on shirts.

Heh heh... Reminds me of a funny story from working in a grade school. A kid showed up in an enormously oversized t-shirt with an enormous marijuana leaf on it. Turns out he didn't know what the leaf meant--he was out of clean clothes so he raided his dad's dresser. He spent the rest of the day with the shirt on inside out...

[LWolf]

47. No.

Public schools are not free-speech zones. The students are minors. They do not have the "right" to expression that disrupts the learning environment.

Every student has the right to feel safe and respected in the learning environment. They have the right to expect that they will be allowed to learn without disruption.

I like to encourage freedom of expression in my classroom. Along with that freedom, I get to teach, and enforce, respect for others. Courtesy.

Courtesy requires listening as well as expressing, allowing others to be heard, and waiting your turn.

Respect requires self-expression to be accomplished without hate, intolerance, bullying, attacking, etc..

Outside the school grounds, people have the right to be hateful, rude, bigoted, intolerant, arrogant, fearful, miserable, greedy, and all those other qualities that destroy the quality of life on the planet. I don't know why anyone would want to exercise those rights, or take pride in those personal qualities, though.

[Zuiderelle]

49. They had her change it to a phrase just as offensive and prejudiced as the first.

"Be Happy-Be Straight" is no better then "Be Happy-Not Gay."

No hateful t-shirt slogans should be allowed at all. Of course not. And it has nothing to do with freedome of speech. It should be school policy. She would be sent home if she was wearing something that is not allowed by their dress-code, and this is no different.

[philosophie_en_rose]

53. "Be Happy - Be White"

That school is so stupid. If they were in Washington, they'd be sued under the state's anti-discrimination laws.

What's next? Be Happy - Be White? Be Happy - Don't Be Handicapped?

[philosophie_en_rose]

50. No. Kids should be able to wear pro-whatever they are, but not negative anyone else.

No pro-discrimination shirts or derogatory shirts of any kind.

[krispos42]

51. No

It disrupts the learning environment, which is the point of school. Just like it would disrupt the work environment at a business, which is the point of having a business.

[Az]

52. Things certainly become messy when a religious belief is associated with hatred

If we value the idea of freedom of thought then we have to allow that some people are going to bear hateful beliefs. We also have to face the fact that social values in a progressive society (and yes ours is a progressive society in general) are not stagnant. But because they are not stagnant this means that not everyone is on the same page at the same time. Thus while the cutting edge of social values may insist that homosexuality is perfectly acceptable there will be a number of individuals who cling to outmoded thoughts concerning it and they still maintain their right to free thought and speech.

Thus in the general public they are able to maintain their hatred and express it as they see fit (short of calling for harm to the object of hate). Conversely the public at large has the right to express their distaste with their position and marginalize their view as they see fit (again short of calling for harm to them). But school is a different situation.

School is not the general public. It is an institution that has codes and rules. And expressing such opinions is covered within those rules. It is up to the schools to police such things and inform the students of their limits.

[EFerrari]

55. No.

[Deja Q]

56. Well, mine allowed metallica concert shirts reading the slogan (warning, graphic)

'metal up your ass' with a picture of a dagger-wielding fish coming up out of a toilet...

In short, I think school uniforms should come back. Children are there to learn, not spread opinions and gossip and I don't care what the topic is about.

I'm also against the use of cell phones in schools, unlike the Cingular commercial that tells people to get their service because of unlimited texting (don't forget, when breaking contract, you have to pay the $200 early termination fee - even if you have been with them for many contract terms.)

[aikoaiko]

63. Scool uniforms would solve that problem,

[Dervill Crow]

62. My kids' school district dress code prohibits "disruptive" clothing.

Any shirt promoting a pro- or anti-gay lifestyle would be equally unwelcome. At least I hope so. I'm a fan of free speech, but personally, I'd love to see school uniforms in public school. Discussing ideas is great, but school isn't the best place to be wearing a political statement.

Having said that, I guess it's hypocritical for me to park my car with all its bumperstickers in the school parking lot when I pick up my son.

:shrug:

[HardRocker05]

64. absolutely not. nt

[treestar]

72. Not if anything else is prohibited

Like anti-fundie sentiments, or insults to the principal.

[mondo joe]

73. I don't see why any student should be permitted to bully, insult, harass or intimidate others.

I support free speech, but the school also has a responsibility to ensure it is a safe place for all its students.