A Chicago teacher and a teacher union organizer have homes raided by FBI.

[madfloridian]

Seems to be a lot of this going around lately. New policy of this administration? More home searches?

Chicago teacher and a teacher union organizer have their homes raided by the FBI.


Picture from Fred Klonsky's blog. Joe Iosbaker in an SEIU orgnizer at the University of Illinois at Chicago. He has been a union organizer among non-teaching workers at the West Loop Campus. Stephanie Weiner lives in Logan Square and teaches at Wright College.

They along with anti-war activists in Minneapolis had their homes ransacked by FBI agents armed with search warrants in early morning raids yesterday.

The real concern of the Obama administration appears to be activists in the anti-war movement.

[MineralMan]

1. I don't see the connection. Maybe there is one, but

it could just as easily be a coincidence.

[msanthrope]

9. It's a terrorism warrant. PFLP, Hezbollah, and FARC. They weren't the only ones raided. n/t

[MineralMan]

Yeah. I dug out some more information. The fact that thet are

teachers and union organizers is irrelevant to the raids. It's their peace activism that seems to be involved. I posted a link to another news story.

[madfloridian]

30. Are you defending the FBI targeting of anti-war protesters?

Could you please tell me why you think it is okay?

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madfloridian]

56. Show me where I posted that. You assume a lot.

We defend targeting most anyone now.

[Pavulon]

62. Illegal activity is really simple. There will be a warrant. there will be an indictment.

there will be a trial. Evidence will be presented (things like photographs, recordings, wire transfer documents, or a guy who claimed to be hamas taking money from them) and a jury will decide on their outcome. Same as if they had kiddy porn, ponzi schemers, or any other federal crime.

[madfloridian]

79. That does it for me.

I don't have to read your posts anymore with all your assumptions of guilt. It sickens me to read it.

[Pavulon]

83. The part about an evidence and trial, and legal recourse if the warrant was illegal

means they are guilty? Its federal court, not gbay.

[flyarm]

217. and you are not alone!! It makes me puke! eom

[valerief]

218. But the Patriot Act is in effect, so you assume a lot. nt

[flyarm]

221. The Cointelpro group have also Infiltrated the 9/11 truth movement..see here>

http://www.visibility911.com/reports-cointelpro01.php

The Cointelpro has been successful in breaking up Scholars for 9-11 Truth

Am I the only one who remembers the Peace activists who were infiltrated by FBI prior to the 2004 election?


there have been other cases as well..here to name a few:

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20100920/NEWS/9200318/Iowa-activists-drew-extensive-FBI-scrutiny

Just a simple Google search brings this info up..

U.S. Government Spying and Infiltration - KYRS Programmers ...
May 25, 2007 ... FBI kept eye on peace activists. Feds may have used informant in PJALS ... at one point apparently getting information from a "spy" in the group as ... property and was sentenced to 27 months in prison in November 2003. ...

kyrscollective.wetpaint.com/page/U.S.+Government+Spyi... - Similar
ACLU and Fresno Residents Seek FBI Records Regarding ...
... an obituary on September 1, 2003, about Aaron Kilner's death in a motorcycle accident. ... When members of Peace Fresno saw the picture and read the obituary they began ... FBI Improperly Spied On Activists, Says Justice Department Inspector General .... Sign up – Get ACLU eNewsletters delivered to your inbox! ...

www.aclu.org/national-security/aclu-and-fresno-reside... - Similar
FBI, Please Protect Us from Terrorists and the ACLU: Newsroom: ...
... the FBI snooped on the personal lives of radical leftists, peace activists, ... infiltrated activist groups opposed to mandatory busing, and even spied on ... In October 2003, the FBI carried out extensive surveillance of Iraq war ...

www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1544 - Similar
ACLU of Northern California : ACLU and Fresno Residents Seek ...
Jan 29, 2004 ... Catherine Campbell, a local attorney representing Peace Fresno added: “The California Constitution prohibits this kind of infiltration ...

www.aclunc.org/news/press_releases/aclu_and_fresno_re... - Similar
The Other Domestic Spying Numerous domestic surveillance ...
... was then used in secret "blacklists" to discriminate against leftists or get them fired. .... A 2003 memorandum from the FBI sent to 17000 local police agencies urged ... Local police in Fresno and Washington, DC have also infiltrated peace ... have been noted with FBI agents coming to the homes of activists to ...

www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Subverting%20_Democracy/US... - Similar
Fresno Peace Group Infiltrated by Government Agent - MIT
Aaron Kilner, known by Peace Fresno activists as Aaron Stokes, attended several Peace ... an FBI agent told a group, of mostly immigrant rights activists, ... October 5, 2003 Peace Fresno held a press conference about this infiltration. ...

web.mit.edu/thistle/www/v15/3/infiltration.html - Similar
Police and FBI Investigate Antiwar Protesters - GetRealList
The bulletin, sent to law enforcement agencies on Oct. 15, 2003, .... None of the activists have been able to get any answers from officials about why they ... the antiwar group Peace Fresno discovered they'd been infiltrated when an ...

www.getreallist.com/police-and-fbi-investigate-antiwa... - Similar


Oh how I remember a DU when democrats were so angry about this, but now it seems we have been infiltrated by NEW democrats who think it is aok now that Democrats are in charge..

what a sick world we find ourselves in..

Hellllooooo Americans..this is NOT OK no matter who is pres!

[flyarm]

222. or Non Illegal activity is now is now treated illegal by the FBI and some in our Bush stacked courts

there have been other cases as well..here to name a few:

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20100920/NEWS/9200318/Iowa-activists-drew-extensive-FBI-scrutiny

Just a simple Google search brings this info up..

U.S. Government Spying and Infiltration - KYRS Programmers ...
May 25, 2007 ... FBI kept eye on peace activists. Feds may have used informant in PJALS ... at one point apparently getting information from a "spy" in the group as ... property and was sentenced to 27 months in prison in November 2003. ...

kyrscollective.wetpaint.com/page/U.S.+Government+Spyi... - Similar
ACLU and Fresno Residents Seek FBI Records Regarding ...
... an obituary on September 1, 2003, about Aaron Kilner's death in a motorcycle accident. ... When members of Peace Fresno saw the picture and read the obituary they began ... FBI Improperly Spied On Activists, Says Justice Department Inspector General .... Sign up – Get ACLU eNewsletters delivered to your inbox! ...

www.aclu.org/national-security/aclu-and-fresno-reside... - Similar
FBI, Please Protect Us from Terrorists and the ACLU: Newsroom: ...
... the FBI snooped on the personal lives of radical leftists, peace activists, ... infiltrated activist groups opposed to mandatory busing, and even spied on ... In October 2003, the FBI carried out extensive surveillance of Iraq war ...

www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1544 - Similar
ACLU of Northern California : ACLU and Fresno Residents Seek ...
Jan 29, 2004 ... Catherine Campbell, a local attorney representing Peace Fresno added: “The California Constitution prohibits this kind of infiltration ...

www.aclunc.org/news/press_releases/aclu_and_fresno_re... - Similar
The Other Domestic Spying Numerous domestic surveillance ...
... was then used in secret "blacklists" to discriminate against leftists or get them fired. .... A 2003 memorandum from the FBI sent to 17000 local police agencies urged ... Local police in Fresno and Washington, DC have also infiltrated peace ... have been noted with FBI agents coming to the homes of activists to ...

www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Subverting%20_Democracy/US... - Similar
Fresno Peace Group Infiltrated by Government Agent - MIT
Aaron Kilner, known by Peace Fresno activists as Aaron Stokes, attended several Peace ... an FBI agent told a group, of mostly immigrant rights activists, ... October 5, 2003 Peace Fresno held a press conference about this infiltration. ...

web.mit.edu/thistle/www/v15/3/infiltration.html - Similar
Police and FBI Investigate Antiwar Protesters - GetRealList
The bulletin, sent to law enforcement agencies on Oct. 15, 2003, .... None of the activists have been able to get any answers from officials about why they ... the antiwar group Peace Fresno discovered they'd been infiltrated when an ...

www.getreallist.com/police-and-fbi-investigate-antiwa... - Similar

[proud2BlibKansan]

133. Where does it say they are supporting Hamas or FARC?

[Catherina]

145. They had sympathies for the International Solidarity Movement Peace Activists. Ergo...

Ergo in a simpleton's world, they must be terrorist sympathizers.

[Pavulon]

170. will see what comes out in federal court. and if convicted they get the hard 20

t0 write manifestos to convince everyone that they were protecting the working man, in Lebanon and Venezuela.. shit, now how does that intersect up policy.

[truth2power]

203. "on purpose"...Oh, I see. Where we kill women and kids "by accident"...

Works for me.


:sarcasm: As if I need to say that.

[msanthrope]

44. I haven't any opinion--there's not enough info.

Do you have evidence of an improperly served warrant?

[EFerrari]

47. Nearly 80 years of thuggery would lead me to put my money

on these activists and not on the Federal Bureau of Invention.

[proud2BlibKansan]

134. +1

[laughingliberal]

228. +1000 nt

[Scruffy1]

297. good bet

Mick lives in a shabby walk up apartment and works as a cook. If the whole bunch put all of their money resources together they might be able to buy lunch. The powers that be are just starting to clamp down before the DNC in 2012. They want a nice Potemkin village for their show and RT will get his big moment. He' probably working o his hairdo know, remembering how HHH used the mayors job to be somebody. Of course they have to get rid of a sitting senator, but thats been done before.

[CreekDog]

180. We should always assume the FBI does things properly and treats activists for peace appropriately

[BulletproofLandshark]

188. Yep, always.

[EFerrari]

245. Never forget.

[Scruffy1]

296. Yeah they even helped MLK get a motel room-with balcony

[MineralMan]

131. I'm defending nothing. I'm just adding a bit of information.

I don't think it is okay.

[proud2BlibKansan]

185. A friend sent this message on FB:

To my Facebook Friends....If you do not hear from me for an extended amount of time.....contact the FBI and ask about me. This is not pretend stuff. Not games. People in Central American and South American countries who were political activists, journalist, human rights workers, lawyers, teachers, labor union organizers......were "disappeared" by the thousands for decades. Looks like it is starting here. These firsr raids should be looked at as laboratory tests. The reaction of the public will tell the FBI just how much they can get away with. Bush politicized our judicial system and got away with it. Reagan took down labor unions and got away with it. The R's stole a presidential election and got away with it. Bush started two wars and got away with it. The Congres (both parties) redacted the Bill of Rights in the name of "Homeland Security" and got away with it. Don't look now, but they are coming for you and you have something to be concerned about.

[MineralMan]

202. OK, but I don't know who your Facebook friend is, so that's

fairly meaningless to me. I have no idea what risks that person has taken or what the odds are of what that friend says actually happening.

[laughingliberal]

230. The odds of this happening to those who stand for workers & peace seem to be getting better. nt

[Hannah Bell]

17. yeah, those union organizers were channeling money to farc. righty-oh.

could there be anymore damning evidence....

[msanthrope]

28. Actually, looks like it was the Socialists....

"The warrant for the raid on Kelly's apartment, in the 1800 block of Riverside Avenue, sought notebooks, address books, photos and maps of Kelly's travels to the Palestinian territories, Colombia and in the United States on behalf of the Freedom Road Socialist Organization. It also sought materials on his personal finances and those of the group, on Kelly's "potential co-conspirators" and recruitment efforts for the group.

The warrant also sought any information about efforts to support FARC, a guerrilla organization in Colombia, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, and Hezbollah, the political and paramilitary organization based in Lebanon."

http://www.startribune.com/local/103716104.html?elr=KArksUUUycaEacyU

[Hannah Bell]

40. are you or have you ever been.....

Kelly said the warrant issued in the raid on his apartment suggested authorities were looking into any connections or travel to Palestine and Colombia, the Star-Tribune reported. He said he had not traveled to those locations. Kelly said he had traveled to Lebanon, where the paramilitary group Hizbollah is based, but said he did not believe that country was mentioned in the warrant.


bullshit fishing & intimidation expedition

good to know where you stand

[Go2Peace]

177. How bad is it when even folks on a liberal board have MCarthiest tendancies?

It seems we are much farther along than in the 50s.

[peace frog]

205. Pretty goddamn BAD

This is the Democratic Underground? Sorry, thought I'd stumbled into freeperville.

[MajorChode]

219. Hyperbole much?

If you had actually bothered to do a little research on the subject, you might know that FRSO openly supports organizations like FARC. You can find as much right on the home page of their website. It's not too much of a stretch to reason that some members could be illegally funneling money to terrorist organizations. The person you are accusing of "MCarthiest(sic) tendancies (sic)" was simply pointing out relevant facts of the case which seem to be too inconvenient for you.

http://frso.org/docs/2010/farc1may2010english.htm

[Name removed]

270. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MajorChode]

275. You've posted this twice and you actually have the nerve to accuse someone else of being a troll?

Fucking brilliant!

:toast:

Cheers!

[Techn0Girl]

278. So basically you are just laughing at how stupid we all are to you - by putting an obscene reference

in your screen name?

Does that about sum it up?

[MajorChode]

279. Are you now going to pretend to tell me what my screen name means?

I've already told you that you're wrong. If you can't deal with that, I suggest you seek professional assistance.

I guess I should have picked one popular with the pre-teen crowd so it wouldn't be misunderstood. You know, something like yours.

As it is you are starting to get a little creepy with your troll-like behavior and the Freudian projection is just a bit more than I can take.

Cheers!

[Techn0Girl]

281. Google already says what it means.....

It's a term that very young men use when they are referring to a penis.

Something a 14 or 15 year old would use.
And think it's funny since most of us here aren't pubescent boys, that we wouldn't know what it meant.

Google knows what it means:
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22chode%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

I don't think it's funny - I think it;s rather sad more than anything else.

[MajorChode]

282. ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9200308&mesg_id=9205518

[Techn0Girl]

284. So this is just a big joke to you? And the "payoff" is getting to use "penis" in your screen name?

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22chode%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

[MajorChode]

285. ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9200308&mesg_id=9205518

[Techn0Girl]

286. You seem to have quieted on the issues...

Since I mentioned what your screen name means.

By the way - a young man like yourself probably isn't familiar with how Google ranks it's pages.
Every time you reply your name , MajorChode , get's linked to the actual definition of chode which is "penis" - that I repost

By tomorrow it will likely be first ranked so that anyone who puts your name into the DU search box will find out what you really are all about.

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22chode%22&ie=utf-8

Thanks for helping make that happen :)

[MajorChode]

287. ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9200308&mesg_id=9205518

[msanthrope]

290. Pointing out facts that are inconvenient is not allowed when the person in question

has a sympathetic world view.

I don't know what's going to happen to these people. It's going to be a long investigation.

[flyarm]

224. an absolute disgrace! of which I am ashamed today to say they belong to a party i used to be proud

to be a member!

If this is their new GOTV tactic..they lost me..on many fronts!

And as someone who has worked GOTV for the dem party for 40 years..they will not have my feet on the ground, nor a dime of my money.

New Democrats my ass..these are fascists! And no one i recognise as being from or for the Democratic party!

They lost me!

[blindpig]

295. Not so surprising...

Liberals were heavily involved in the Red Scare, JFK was a premiere Red Baiter. Liberal leadership is just as supportive of Capital as the conservatives, differences are a matter of style.

[Peregrine Took]

2. Reminds me of the movie, "Brazil." Never thought I'd see that here.

Where is Robert Di Nero now that we need him?

[99th_Monkey]

201. Yes. That movie Brazil was brilliantly and sadly prophetic huh? n/t

[MikeMc]

239. 'I got into this game for the action, the excitement.

Go anywhere, travel light. Get in, get out, wherever there's trouble. A man alone'

[IDemo]

292. Wait for it

folks will soon be required to gain financing to pay for their 'treatment' by Information Retrieval.

[vi5]

3. Damn that Senate!!!

This must be the Senate's doing right? Isn't it always the Senate's fault. I mean Obama clearly doesn't want homes raided and is pro union and pro-teacher. So it MUST be that confounded Senate!! Always screwing things up. Maybe if you all would get out there and vote for Democrats, then they wouldn't have to be raiding people's houses.

[izquierdista]

37. Whooooooooooooshhhhhh!

That sailed so far over everyone's head, they are going to get whiplash looking up. But I liked it. :evilgrin: :thumbsup:

[maryf]

146. +1,000

glad I didn't miss this post, fantastic.

[Enrique]

216. we need a filibuster-proof majority

:shrug:

[vi5]

233. Would that have stopped this?

That's my point. We keep hearing about how the Senate is the source of all our problems, and how Obama would make all these major changes from the Bush administration and he really wants more progressive policies and approaches to things, but that the roadblocked Senate and the obstructionist republicans just won't let him. But that's not an excuse when it comes to all these executive power grabs and Department of Justice issues which fall firmly under his jurisdiction and have nothing to do with the Senate. We could have 80 Democratic senators, but if executive power goes unchecked and unquestioned then it doesn't do a goddamned bit of good.

[SammyWinstonJack]

273. heheh

:evilgrin:

[Hannah Bell]

4. kr.

[MineralMan]

5. There is a connection. Here's a link that identifies it:

http://www.myfoxchicago.com/dpp/news/metro/feds-raid-homes-in-chicago-minnesota-in-terror-probe-20100924

So, the two raids are connected, not from the union activism but through anti-war activism.

[madfloridian]

7. Well, maybe hubby and I are next.

We were active anti-war protesters in 2003.

[MineralMan]

11. I doubt that you'll be the next target.

I'm not making any sort of judgment call, just showing the connection. The union activism doesn't seem to be related to the raid.

[madfloridian]

18. I said we were anti-war protesters. Proud of it, too.

I am smart enough to see that they are just targeting anyone and perhaps everyone from the anti-war movement.

I posted a lot about it here in 2002 and 2003.

[MineralMan]

136. OK. I'm a war protester, too. I was in front of the Pentagon during

the Vietnam war...twice, and in the thick of the anti-war movement in DC. You're hardly unique in that.

I have no more idea what the facts are in this particular situation than you do. That's why I'm not making any judgments about it. A warrant was served. Papers, etc. were seized. What information is there in that material? I have no idea.

I'm not taking any position on this at all. I want to see what evidence there is and what the basis for the warrants were. I don't know that. Neither do you or anyone else in this thread. We're all going to have to wait to see what develops in this situation.

I'll wait. In the meantime, nobody's under arrest. Nobody has been physically harmed. I'll just give it some time and follow it as facts emerge.

[Catherina]

147. Hah! 45 years ago. Since then, the Pentagon fears you not one bit.

They're targetting the people they can't count in. You're in no danger whatsoever.

[proud2BlibKansan]

148. Have you protested against the war since then?

[MineralMan]

196. Only on paper. I don't do street activism any longer.

[flyarm]

238. and many of us posted about it in 2002 2003 and 2004 when a group of peace activists in

Fresno Calif were infiltrated by the FBI..totally illegally by the California constitution!

Many of us could be on their list today ..Under ..what i never thought I would have to say..a Democratic President.

We all screamed when this was being done under Bush..now there are people here supoorting this bullshit under Obama..if I had the time or was so inclined I would go back in some of the so called suporters of this now and see exactly what they said under Bush when this shit was going on..I did look up one such persons journal,.but that person has cleaned out/scrubbed their journal prior to 2007!

I specifiically remember In 2004 before the election many of us dems in my area of Florida looking into people we suspected of being FBI Plants..to ou meetings and rallies!

Pretty fucking sick to my stomach now to see or hear Democrats supporting this bulshit!

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

kyrscollective.wetpaint.com/page/U.S.+Government+Spyi... - Similar
ACLU and Fresno Residents Seek FBI Records Regarding ...
... an obituary on September 1, 2003, about Aaron Kilner's death in a motorcycle accident. ... When members of Peace Fresno saw the picture and read the obituary they began ... FBI Improperly Spied On Activists, Says Justice Department Inspector General .... Sign up – Get ACLU eNewsletters delivered to your inbox! ...


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20100920/NEWS/9200318/Iowa-activists-drew-extensive-FBI-scrutiny

The FBI's surveillance of a protest group in Iowa City prior to the Republican National Convention in St. Paul, Minn., two years ago was far more extensive than initially reported, newly obtained FBI documents show.

Agents staked out the homes of political activists, secretly photographed and shot video of them, pored through their garbage, and studied their cell phone and motor vehicle records, according to records detailing the FBI's counterterrorism investigation.


Federal agents and other law enforcement officers also watched and documented the protesters' comings and goings at such places as the Iowa City Public Library; the New Pioneer Co-op natural foods store; the Red Avocado restaurant and the Deadwood Tavern; and the Wesley Center campus ministry of the United Methodist Church.

The FBI's nine-month investigation in 2008 is detailed in more than 300 pages of documents obtained through the federal Freedom of Information Act by David Goodner, a former member of the University of Iowa's Antiwar Committee, and provided to The Des Moines Register.




xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1544

FBI, Please Protect Us from Terrorists and the ACLU
August 18, 2005
Anthony Gregory
The Star (Chicago, IL)



About two weeks ago, the FBI admitted in federal court to collecting thousands of documents on non-violent activist groups, including the ACLU, Greenpeace and various antiwar organizations.

The ACLU, suing under the Freedom of Information Act, requested to see its files, but the FBI insists it cannot turn over its 1,173 pages of documentation on the ACLU for another eight or more months, as it needs that time to “process” them. Ironically, this same agency, which can apparently only “process” about five documents a day, is also supposed to protect Americans against terrorism.

This is, of course, the same agency that refused to authorize a criminal investigation of two of the 9/11 hijackers weeks before the attacks on the World Trade Center, and which, around the same time, denied a search warrant to Minneapolis agents who sought to search the computer and other possessions of “twentieth hijacker” Zacarias Moussaoui, who had caught their attention when he showed up to flight school, thousands of dollars in hand, apparently incompetent at flying but eager to learn how to fly a 747 (but not how to land it) along with details about its doors and control panel, and vocally interested in the likely amount of damage it would cause upon crashing. Having misunderstood its own rules and protocol regarding the issuing of FISA search warrants, the FBI headquarters withheld permission to search Moussaoui’s property, even after a flight school official pointed out to the FBI “that a 747 loaded with fuel can be used as a bomb,” and after one of the head Minneapolis agents prophetically expressed concern

[msanthrope]

15. You have FARC connections? Do tell. ;-) I think you're safe. n/t

[Hannah Bell]

23. are you or have you ever been.....

no problem telling "which side are you on"

[Pavulon]

32. Its easy, if you give money to hamas, farc, or alqueda, you are going to federal prison.

nothing new here. They busted some assholes here selling cigarettes with no tax stamps and sending the proceeds to hamas. Those guys will die in prison.

[Hannah Bell]

35. that is false information. "are you or have you ever been...." deja vu all over again.

Kelly said the warrant issued in the raid on his apartment suggested authorities were looking into any connections or travel to Palestine and Colombia, the Star-Tribune reported. He said he had not traveled to those locations. Kelly said he had traveled to Lebanon, where the paramilitary group Hizbollah is based, but said he did not believe that country was mentioned in the warrant.

[Pavulon]

45. No its actually illegal to give money to those people. Its not illegal to be a communist, socialist

or whatever ist. you want. Illegal meaning against the law. Meaning if you engage in that activity expect federal time.

[Hannah Bell]

50. show me the documentation of these people "giving money" to those organizations.

go ahead, show it to me. in the op or elsewhere.

[Pavulon]

54. That will be on the warrant signed by a judge and the GJ indictment

in due time. You are aware there are things the FBI uses called warrants and those are signed off by federal judges?

Boy for their sake I hope they are wrong. The sentences for this type of crime is very long and served in federal prison.

[Hannah Bell]

59. false. search warrants were pure fishing expedition. yeah, & i'm aware of the many times

the fbi's used "those things called warrants" to mess with people for no reason.

i should respect the fbi?

lol.

[Pavulon]

65. Judge signed them. Hey you are welcome to reinvent the entire legal system

but it works the same for bernie madoff as it will for these people. If they have evidence they broke they law they will do federal time.

[Hannah Bell]

66. blahblahblahfascism: if they had evidence they broke the law they would have arrested them.

they don't have any evidence, duh.

same witch-hunting bullshit as mccarthyism: if they find that any of those folks gave 5 cents to something that they can link in any way, no matter how tortured, to any of their phony terrorist groups....

like the people who made contributions to some relief committee in the 30s that hoover et al tried to make out was a "communist front group"

same shit, different season.



Once I was young and impulsive
I wore every conceivable pin
Even went to the socialist meetings
Learned all the old union hymns
But I've grown older and wiser
And that's why I'm turning you in
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

[Pavulon]

71. That is not how the world works.

They can arrest at their leisure. The warrant is just that a warrant signed by a judge. If it is an illegal warrant, the "victims" can sue.

It will be interesting to see the warrant.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[msanthrope]

76. Not true---they may have plenty of evidence.....

I've had to explain this slowly and patiently to clients---just because they cops haven't arrested you doesn't mean they don't have enough evidence to arrest you. They may just be waiting to see who you hang with, what you do, who you call....

And just because you are served with a search warrant doesn't mean they are going to arrest you, either.

[Hannah Bell]

80. yeah, maybe they're just trying to rope in the whole SPY RING.

The only advantage in *not* arresting perps they could prove were guilty while conducting a search would be the element of surprise -- there is none here. Anyone they're hoping to catch has notice to flee.

they can't prove anything; intimidation, fishing, witch hunt.

[EFerrari]

87. Maybe they'll find BIN LADEN!

You never know!

[Pavulon]

90. Maybe they will find email and wire transfer evidence

they got from the other end of the investigation confirming these people broke the law. Maybe they will do a hard 20 in federal prison.

Lets see where they chips fall.

[msanthrope]

95. Looks like part of fairly large grand jury investigation--subpeonas were served also

for a Chicago GJ.

[ooglymoogly]

257. I am sure, if you had anything to say about it, the chips would

fall just the way you wanted them to fall. The KGB was always right, the Gestapo was always right, wasn't it Herr whatever? And the SS had it's moments too. How much do they pay you for this disgusting authoritarian clap trap? And why do you and your tag team continually pedal it here. This behavior is not acceptable in a free and democratic society protected by the laws our constitution.

[Pavulon]

276. Please, this behavior is the CORE if a democratic system. The warrant will be public record

their trial (if they have one will be public record) you can even go and see it yourself. They have a right to confront their accusers and mount a defense.
.

And IF they are convicted they have the right to appeal. Looks like you tripped over some emotion in that post.

[ooglymoogly]

288. Right, right, the constabulary has the right to go into anybodies house

and shoot anyone the Prez deems to be a terrorist or search and seizure of anything the constabulary deems to be against profitable wars or the policies of any administration, can wiretap at will and destroy anyone it chooses for whatever reasons under dubious state secrets; Even though that is a contravention of the very meaning and the very reasoning of the constitution and you damn well know it.

What is going on now is fascism pure and simple, no better than a banana republic. The transgressions of this agency are legion and well documented and are of public record.

These are peace activists; Easy pickins; Ham sandwiches that any malevolent prosecutor can indict for political purposes in this crazed invioronment.

Whether they are brought to trial and found guilty or not by a "*" stacked judge, their lives are ruined.

[Pavulon]

289. Well guess the systems fucked, or selectively based on who your judge is or if you are a "union"

organizer. Please, go to their trial, live blog for us.

[msanthrope]

86. "phony terrorist groups?"

No, FARC, and PFLP are actual terrorist organizations.

They aren't some misunderstood revolutionaries....

[Hannah Bell]

110. pikers.

[MilesColtrane]

280. Ask Ingrid Betancourt if FARC is a bunch of pikers

[msanthrope]

69. No, we have search warrants to PREVENT fishing expeditions. n/t

[Hannah Bell]

99. lol. sure.

[cleanhippie]

72. So by that rationale, ALL warrants the FBI gets are a "fishing expedition"?

You need to get a grip, the whole government is NOT a conspiracy.

[EFerrari]

89. And maybe you need to get a grip on the history of FBI harassment.

They aren't the whole government, you know. :)

[Pavulon]

91. Good thing the federal court system is open. You can even go to their trial

if they have one. You can live blog it for us.

[Name removed]

116. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cleanhippie]

200. But what are you saying is that there is a conspiracy bigger than the FBI

because it would require judges to falsely sign warrants, too.

You need to get a grip on reality, cause its just not a conspiracy like you think it is.

[Puregonzo1188]

142. Here's the warrant.

http://tc.indymedia.org/files/kelly-warrant-92210.pdf


If they're not interested in them being socialists, there sure is a lot of mention of the Freedom Road Socialist Organization.

You do know the material support law was recently challenged in Court by the Carter Center, ACLU, CCR, Human Rights Watch, etc?


You do know Jimmy Carter and the Carter Center could technically be convicted of giving "material support" under this law?

Of course, that's not going to happen, because it's a lot harder to go after Former Presidents than Maoists. Regardless, the government is sending a message.

[Catherina]

150. A probe into the political beliefs of citizens & organizations that oppose American imperial design

Ted Dooley, an attorney, said he had reviewed the search warrant issued in the raid on Kelly’s apartment. “It’s a probe into the political beliefs of American citizens and to any organization anywhere that opposes the American imperial design,” he said.

http://www.startribune.com/local/103716104.html?elr=KArksLckD8EQDUoaEyqyP4O:DW3ckUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUnciatkEP7DhUsl

http://news.google.com/news/more?pz=1&hdlOnly=1&cf=all&ned=us&topic=n&ncl=dp3Vr_YXhFzte0MS94cyBATOlt93M

[Puregonzo1188]

154. As anyone who reads the warrant for her/himself can clearly tell.

It's disturbing how many DUers seem to be siding with the FBI.

[Catherina]

155. Worse than disturbing, Downright terrifying,. I hope the Admins are proud. n/t

[kas125]

183. It's disturbing and terrifying, but unfortunately, it's not the least

bit surprising. I've been astonished at the level of disdain for peace activists here since the day I joined.

[Puregonzo1188]

208. It used to not be that way. I've been at DU for awhile, and back in 2005 there was a

lot of support for peace activist. But then the dems took back the House and Senate, and guess what--the peace activist still demanded peace. That's when the disdain started. It's gotten really bad at times.

There's also the DU "the police are always right" clique as well. They can converge forces on this one.

[MH1]

191. So now you are blaming the DU admins?

because some people disagree with you about the meaning of this?

:rofl:

[glinda]

159. so are the Tea baggers and some Repubs next?

[flyarm]

168. or YOU? or Me?

[glinda]

175. I keep getting "spam" supposedly from the FBI. Maybe it isn't spam. lol!

[cleanhippie]

70. Uh, thats what the warrants are for.

You need to let the justice system play out here. If the administration is doing wrong, it will come out.

[Hannah Bell]

78. oh bullshit. not since the bush admin's seeding of federal judgeships with

winger fundies.

"just sit down & let the nice government do their work, i'm sure everything will be fine"

[Pavulon]

85. Please. You are claiming the judge is biased, you dont even know who signed it.

they are either going to get indicted or have legal recourse against the government. My bet is on the first option...

[Hannah Bell]

big deal. you're claiming the searched sent money to farc as though it were a fact.

it's a pending obama appointee who signed the minneapolis warrants, aamof. but she was appointed magistrate judge in 2000.

[Pavulon]

104. Farc, hamas, hezbolla, which ever they gave money to

they had better hire a very good attorney.

[Hannah Bell]

113. you're claiming they gave money to *someone* bad -- as though it were fact.

[Pavulon]

118. Nope just looking at the article. I have no idea what they did or did not do

"Burke said he received a grand jury subpoena requesting records of payments to Abudayyeh's organization as well as two groups among the State Department's list of foreign terrorist organizations, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine and the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC)."

[Name removed]

151. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tammywammy]

105. According to WSWS it was Judge Susan Nelson that signed the warrant

I didn't see that confirmed in any other article. She has been nominated by Obama for a US District position.

[Hannah Bell]

108. appointed magistrate judge 2000 under clinton.

[tammywammy]

120. She wasn't appointed by Clinton, since she's just a magistrate

Presidents only appoint from the US District Judge and up.

http://www.uscourts.gov/Common/FAQS.aspx

"Q: What are federal magistrate judges?

A U.S. magistrate judge is a judicial officer of the district court and is appointed by majority vote of the active district judges of the court to exercise jurisdiction over matters assigned by statute as well as those delegated by the district judges. The number of magistrate judge positions is determined by the Judicial Conference of the United States, based on recommendations of the respective district courts, the judicial councils of the circuits, and the Director of the Administrative Office of the U.S. Courts. A full-time magistrate judge serves a term of eight years. Duties assigned to magistrate judges by district court judges may vary considerably from court to court."

[Hannah Bell]

173. that's why i said *under* clinton, tammywammybammy.

[Name removed]

115. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[msanthrope]

117. She's an extremely well-qualified judge...her bio is impressive. n/t

[tammywammy]

122. I agree with you, even though I haven't read much on her

What I have read is impressive.

[Scruffy1]

298. She was nominated by Klobuchar for a lifetime appointment

as a federal district judge.

[cleanhippie]

114. Hannah Bell says its bullshit. That ends teh debate right there.

So much for reason, huh?

[MajorChode]

229. Yep, she also says the warrant was a "fishing expedition" and there's "no evidence" against them

Either she has an inside track or her crystal ball is polished really well. Regardless we shouldn't question her incontestable logic.

[laughingliberal]

231. Yes. I saw a statement where Kelly said they barely get their newsletter out & it was ludicrous...

to think they've had money to give to these organizations. I believe him. I saw this same shit in the late 60's/early 70's.

[dharmamarx]

212. No it's not "easy"

The Supreme Court recently defined "material support" in a very broad way. Giving "material support" does not mean you made out a check to the FARC and you wrote "Money for guns to shoot capitalists" in the Memo section. It can now mean that you had a conversation with someone associated with the FARC about how they can improve their human rights record or how they resolve conflicts non-violently. See here: http://www.democracynow.org/2010/6/22/headlines#7. What Jimmy Carter did in Lebanon in 2006 could now get him arrested for lending "material support" to "terrorists." Some of the activists getting arrested now may have been doing labor rights related work in Columbia. They may, for instance, have been active in the Killer Coke campaign (http://killercoke.org/), which is a really good cause, but some of the labor activists being killed by right-wing paramilitary squads in Columbia are tied to the FARC. In Columbia, it's just the nature of the beast: parts of the labor movement there are wrapped up with the FARC in the same way that the labor movement in the U.S. is wrapped up with the Democratic party. (And you really shouldn't assume that everyone associated with the FARC is gungho about their numerous human rights violations just as not everyone associated with the Democratic party supported the bombing of South Vietnam, or Jimmy Carter's policies towards East Timor, or Bill Clinton's sanctions against Iraq, or Bush's illegal wars, although plenty of Democrats did support those things. However, when you start running around calling people "terrorists" those kind of subtle distinctions become hard to see.)

[msanthrope]

51. I am definitely not on the side of FARC, thank you very much! n/t

[Hannah Bell]

53. are you or have you ever been....witchhunters

[dharmamarx]

215. Why would you assume that the FARC simply has "a side"?

There are a lot of people associated with that organization (including many Columbian labor activists) and many of them probably have very complex attitudes about that organization, just as many of us have complex attitudes about the party we support. The us/them logic of our current "terrorism" laws are designed to prevent us from recognizing this complexity.

[Go2Peace]

178. You have assumed a lot.

Prey tell, what constitutes a "FARC connection? Where is the bar at which a person should be slandered and their house invaded?

These laws are to the point where intent can have little bearing. You could take the wrong person, inadvertantly or inadvertantly, to dinner, or help them with rent because you worried for their family, or support a food program that turned out to have ties to a group that is on the list, and in our current system they can raid your house and put you before a court.

You think that is a just system? Or have we let our system loose it's wisdom?

[flyarm]

49. I do remember here in Fla many anti war activists having their groups infiltrated by FBI

all the way through the 2004 election.

Gee some things barely change and others not so much! In fact they get done by our own..against our own!

March on... for all that fucking change we were promised!!

Vote in NOV for more of that fucking change....what a great GOTV tool!!:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :patriot:

Gee I was a flight attendant for 33 years..and traveled the world..am I next??????

Gee I can't even read all the places I have been.. there are so many in all my passports..past and present.

Hell Obama better watch out..he went to Pakistan! But we can't see his passport!

[Go2Peace]

179. Yep, Carter went to North Korea as a private citizen

If justice were blind he should be hauled in too. But we all accept that Carter's intentions were appropriate. Why is it, that justice does not have the same tendancy for these groups? Why don't people recognize that it is out of balance and we have slipped into authoritarianism and a system based on heavy control?

[Puregonzo1188]

209. Carter could be hauled, which is part of the reason the

Carter Center filed an amicus brief in Holder v. Humanitarian Law Center, the case dealing with the constitutionality of the law the activists are being investigated for violating.

Of course, you're right and the justice system is not blind--it's a whole lot easy to go after the Freedom Road Socialist Organization than a Former US President. The FBI is sending us a message.

[Go2Peace]

210. It would be a good lesson if it happened. It would make us face up to what is really happening

That is one of the problems though with this stage of Facism. It is more subtle and only picks on those without power. But Carter recognizes that eventually this leads to repression of all.

One of the best things that could happen is to get this out and headlined. It would reveal where it is all leading.

[Puregonzo1188]

223. Agreed. But sometimes I wonder if we'd learn the right lesson. I read a book on COINTELPRO

a few years back and one of the arguments the author made was both parties really tolerated COINTELPRO, which made Watergate sort of inevitable. Yet, there were still people who were outraged at Watergate, but would support the same tactics still when they were used against "socialists." But it doesn't work that way.

Still, I don't think we really drew that lesson--Watergate is still considered the worst scandal in American history, where as, the shit the FBI did the Black Panthers or the Communist Party is barely even mentioned.


I mean looking at the history of civil liberties in this country, the Palmer Raids, Haymarket, Cointelpro, CISPES investigation, jailing of Eugene Debs I can't really tell if things are getting worse or just staying the same.

Regardless, we live in scary time.

[laughingliberal]

232. +1000 nt

[Hannah Bell]

21. oh, "my fox"! oh, mein fox, oh mein fox, oh mein fox

[suffragette]

258. Interesting that you have gone after FDL so vociferously

and often, yet you apparently have no issue with posting a link to Fox, which has a strong record of being anti-union and pro war among other things.

[EFerrari]

6. Why are peace activists and teachers being raided but not war criminals?

:shrug:

[MineralMan]

8. See the link in my post above. The Chicago couple are

peace activists, too. That's the connection between the two raids. What that means is unclear at this point. I'm watching to see what comes from all this.

[EFerrari]

13. Maybe you should "see" my post again.

There's nothing really "unclear" about the FBI honoring its long history of harassing peaceful activists.

[MineralMan]

20. I agree. I was just pointing out that it wasn't their labor organizing

that was related to the raid. I'm not making any judgments about this at all...just presenting information.

[flyarm]

57. and you have proof of this why????????? and how???????

seems to me I remember a group of Teacher union members IN CHICAGO that shit canned their union leaders who were leading them in the direction of those Charter Schools that Obama and Arnie and the richest people in this country want to shove down our throats while they raid the tax payers money for their own profit!

Wouldn't want any of them to expose what is going on in this nation with the schools and Obama's man ARNIE..would we????????? Especially as NBC is about to shove that shit all over our TV's in the coming weeks..now would we?????????

[Pavulon]

92. Well you can live blog it for us from Federal Court, its an open system.

you can actually go and hear the case presented.

[flyarm]

96. you mean like the open system in the telecoms immunity? or would that be like this?

Obama invokes 'state secrets' claim to dismiss suit against targeting of U.S. citizen al-Aulaqi

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4552761

[Pavulon]

101. Yeah the NSA is not going to dump active systems in open court. You really thought

some pissant labor dispute would compromise intelligence collections systems. Please. And no they are not going to dump active intelligence on a guy running around Yemen getting his jihad on.

Now these would not be the first people to be tried and convicted in OPEN COURT for funding terrorism.

[flyarm]

123. you are right ..the people accused in the Telecom illegal tapping was one such case! eom

[Pavulon]

126. Well the labor dispute about his promotion sure settled out

I bet he did not get that job.. Seriously, you think they are dumping methods and means on a labor case in san fran.

There was no accused, it was all civil.

[Scruffy1]

300. YOU ARE COMPLETELY WRONG

A federal grand jury is a closed session. the subpoenaed individual is not allowed a lawyer in the room. Their is no reporters or cameras allowed. I don't know where you come from but maybe you could do a little homework before you post.

[Lifelong Protester]

12. Couldn't have said it better, EFerrari.

Wow. Just plain wow.


WAKE UP PEOPLE!

[EFerrari]

16. If you find any where that I can go read for a counter mobilization

that can be posted, I'd love to know what people are doing to push back. :hi:

[Hannah Bell]

26. there was an emergency meeting organized in minn immediately & some kind of pushback --

video is floating around somewhere at du

[EFerrari]

39. Saw the video but the sound isn't very good (for me).

It's in the Video Forum.

[msanthrope]

25. Because some of the 'peace activists' traveled to meet with FARC,

and PFLP....these are terrorist organizations.

"The warrant for the raid on Kelly's apartment, in the 1800 block of Riverside Avenue, sought notebooks, address books, photos and maps of Kelly's travels to the Palestinian territories, Colombia and in the United States on behalf of the Freedom Road Socialist Organization. It also sought materials on his personal finances and those of the group, on Kelly's "potential co-conspirators" and recruitment efforts for the group.

The warrant also sought any information about efforts to support FARC, a guerrilla organization in Colombia, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, and Hezbollah, the political and paramilitary organization based in Lebanon."

http://www.startribune.com/local/103716104.html?elr=KArksUUUycaEacyU

[Hannah Bell]

34. says nothing about anyone "meeting with farc/pflp," but nice spin.

"Kelly said the warrant issued in the raid on his apartment suggested authorities were looking into any connections or travel to Palestine and Colombia, the Star-Tribune reported. He said he had not traveled to those locations. Kelly said he had traveled to Lebanon, where the paramilitary group Hizbollah is based, but said he did not believe that country was mentioned in the warrant."

[flyarm]

64. there are some here that can not read..and they just repeat at nauseum , Can you make that Clearer..

without ever reading a damn thing!

Thanks Hannah...

It's a shame you have to keep repeating that over and over again.

[EFerrari]

36. LOL. But the State Department told me that FARC had been neutralized.

They wouldn't LIE to me, would they?

By the same logic, Howard Zinn and Dan Berrigan could have been arrested for visiting North Vietnam -- to free American prisoners.

Please.

[Pavulon]

48. Material Support, these folks better get good attorneys. They are looking at decades of fed time

if they were giving money or support to these groups.

[msanthrope]

121. They have shitty attonrneys...Know how I can tell?

These dumb asses are still talking---


"I have met with Colombian rebels in Colombia," said Sundin. "Those are all countries in which I have provided political act support to campaigns to get our government out and to end U.S. aid to repressive governments."

Asked if he has done anything beyond marching, talking and holding signs, Iosbaker said, "We've done nothing that we're not proud of, but I'm not gonna say any more."

http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/local&id=7687996

[Pavulon]

128. wow, thats the legal definition of Material Support. A federal crime..

in this case the advice not to talk would be well advised..

[Puregonzo1188]

149. Really? He didn't say have gave support to the rebel groups, he

said he gave "political support" to "campaigns" to end military aid to "repressive regimes." You think that's the very definition of material support? I've written an op-ed on both US aid to Colombia, as well as, Israel. One was for a blog, the other was for my school newspaper back when I was in high school. Should I be in trouble as well?

[Pavulon]

162. Did you teach the about aes 256? depends

you may be just fine. But material support is a LONG time.

[Hannah Bell]

174. blahblahbalhblahblahblahgetcherwaron

[Pavulon]

277. Aww, emotions and drama seem to go further with you than fact.

you going to their trial, its in open court..

[Go2Peace]

181. And Carter travelled to North Korea as a private citizen

But yet I am sure you would recognize that his intent was not criminal.

International humanitarian organizations meet with groups like this all the time in various manners. It is part of keeping communication lines open and part of what keeps the world from falling further apart.

Don't you think the law should have some capacity to distinguish intent? It used to? But now we just seem hell bent on instituting and implimenting draconian laws and hauling peaceful people in when we cannot understand them.

Think your view through. Do you think for a moment corporate heads will get this kind of treatment despite the fact that they REALLY do aid destructive movements linked to terrorism for profit?? Are you really so naive as to think that this is blind justice and that these (peace activists) are people that are really any kind of serious factor in what we know of as terrorism?

Think man! THINK!

[LWolf]

38. Good question. nt

[JVS]

132. Crackdown on the Professional Left?

[proud2BlibKansan]

135. I'd like to know why the raids are being supported here

on a supposedly progressive discussion board.

[laughingliberal]

234. Nixon appreciation day on DU? nt

[TBF]

143. Really good question. nt

[Dinger]

171. We're Terrorists, Remember?

Goddamn, FUCK ARNE DUNCAN all the way to HELL!

[metapunditedgy]

225. You're looking at it wrong. It's OBVIOUS they're criminals because they were raided.

:sarcasm:

[Rex]

10. So a teacher union organizer might be involved with terrorism?

Or just a coincidence? Anti-war, union organizer for teachers involved with the evil doers...hmmm...someone better watch these cases closely. If this where happening in Dubya's time, it would be totally apeshit times 12 in here.

[madfloridian]

14. There will be no outrage here over this now.

Just like there is no outrage over the scapegoating of public school teachers and the dismantling of public education.

It is our party doing it now. So it's ok. :shrug:

[Rex]

77. I know and that scares me.

I mean, really, there better be some big, bigtime proof these folks are involved in terrorism or this is just another blow to We The People from the govt we elected into office. :wtf:

[Pavulon]

88. Luckily it is in the federal court system. So they get a public trial, you could attend it if you

really give a shit. Its open court.

[Rex]

93. Sure let me just drive up there and

:eyes:

[Pavulon]

97. Your call, you have the RIGHT to participate in the process. They will get due process

same as everyone else in the federal court system.

[flyarm]

102. like the Telecoms immunity for their crimes..and the case got shut down so we couldn't see or hear

under STATE SECRETS????????

or how about this case?????

Judicial system my ass!

Obama invokes 'state secrets' claim to dismiss suit against targeting of U.S. citizen al-Aulaqi

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4552761


how are all those war crimes cases going?..oh they are not????????? I hear crickets on that front..serious crickets!!

Oh and when does anyone get held accountable for not showing up to our congress with subpoena's issued..any of those little buggers ever held accountable that we have seen????????

How about the peace activists who were infiltrated in my state in 2003-4 of Florida..ever hear any of it now?? or ever ???other than the FBI infiltrated them!

But I bet sure as shit you never heard about investigations in Fla about Abrahmoff having the Hijackers of 9/11 on his casino boat 1 week before 9/11 right down the street from me here in Fla..But the FBI sure as shit got the video tapes!!

Ever hear of the investigations of the Airports that were trafficing drugs for the Bush cartel out of Fla..the same small airports that the supposed Hijackers learned to fly cessna's out of , that made them brillant airline captains on 9/11! That they could do with Jumbo Jets that no captain I know of, could do with a 757 or 767! Oh and I flew as a crew member for one of the airlines involved on 9/11 .. on those planes ..33 years...so please don't touch this with a ten foot pole..unless you like to be embarrassed.

:sarcasm: :sarcasm:

No you never heard those cases, because no one has ever investigated those fucking cases! Nor has any investigation ever been made public!

We just go after Peace Activists then and now!

[Name removed]

107. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Rex]

106. And why is that even up for conversation?

We all know that, but are they being unfairly targeted or a legitimate threat to national security? Time will or won't tell. I also have the RIGHT to call bullshit on or congratulate the FBI for catching some 'evil doers' at my leisure or don't I? You seem to be full of answers.

[Pavulon]

109. Good thing federal court is open. Just because you identify with a persons agenda

does not mean you have to defend them with a blindfold on. Hey if the FBI is wrong they can all sue.

[flyarm]

119. yeah hahahaha..that has worked out for many Americans charged wrongly! haha eom

[Pavulon]

125. If convicted they will still have access to file appeals..

are we debating the federal court system now? haha

[flyarm]

163. and if NOT Convicted ????????? if this was harrrassment?

it will cost some of them their life's savings to prove their innocence..that is if they aren't set up by the FBI! eom

[Pavulon]

167. then they can sue and be on good morning america

telling us about how the man is fucking us in all our holes at once. They have redress, without drama.

[suffragette]

263. Yep, life savings, careers and reputations all potentially wrecked

even if not convicted. And the subpoena is as broad as can be.


http://www.examiner.com/independent-in-chicago/activists-call-fbi-raids-massive-fishing-expedition

Power said the subpoena demands documents “with no time limits” that would detail “people’s entire political history.”

Iosbaker and Weiner, married and parents of two, are longtime social justice activists and well-known in the antiwar movement.

Power said 20 FBI agents came to the couple’s door as they were getting ready for work. “They took 30 boxes of mostly personal belongings. I saw baby cards and postcards from old girlfriends.” The FBI took papers going all the way back to the 1970s, 80s and 90s.

~~~
Schepers points out that the definition of terrorist organization is deeply political. For example, organizations that have planned and executed attacks on Cuba are not included on the U.S. government’s list. And during apartheid in South Africa, the now-ruling African National Congress was deemed a terrorist organization by the Reagan-Bush administrations.

[Rex]

207. And just because you identify with the FBIs agenda

does not...well you get the idea. Sorry, but you are wrong; you assume knowing to much about me. It is the fact of who they are arresting and not what that groups agenda is. NT.

[laughingliberal]

237. +1000 nt

[daleanime]

204. I wouldn't say that....

I may only be one person, but both of these issues piss me off plenty.:grr:

[MikeMc]

256. Mad, you're the tops.

Hang tough. Don't take pretend 'party line Dem' posters at face value.

[Hannah Bell]

41. yep. wow, the liberalism runs deep, deeeeeep.

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Rex]

84. If the FBI is now the Thought Police, we are all screwed.

However, I want to see the evidence or at least find out this ain't another example of the FBI setting up some idiot into saying whatever they want him to say.

[Freddie Stubbs]

299. Terrorists come from many walks of life. Mohamed Atta was an architect

[Starry Messenger]

19. I'm sure if they weren't doing anything wrong they have nothing to be worried about.

:sarcasm:

I guess it's back to the Palmer Raids again. The FBI is just going back to its roots, commie hunting.

[madfloridian]

22. lol exactly.

How very sad that this is going on right now.

[EFerrari]

24. That's what freepers said about illegal wiretaps, I remember. n/t

[Starry Messenger]

31. I figured I'd just get that one out of the way. n/t

[flyarm]

67. funny I remember that vividly as well! Some here NOW, in fact remind me exactly like them! eom

[eilen]

27. There should be a huge outcry here

about this. Peace activists targeted and harassed by the FBI. If this was 3 years ago the fur would be flying. What is everyone drinking?
I can't believe it! We need to protest this use of the Patriot Act to suppress free speech and our rights of dissent. Next week it could be you. I never would have believed I'd see this during a Democratic administration after the Vietnam fiasco.

[Hannah Bell]

42. the elixir of hope & neolib regime change

[Starry Messenger]

52. There won't be a big outcry here.

We're through the looking glass.

[Hannah Bell]

55. outright fascism being cheered on by dems. who knew.

[Pavulon]

Laws make it illegal to look at kiddy porn or to give money to the FARC

how you vote, where you post, where you go to work, and you politics do not change those facts. If you dont want to go to federal prison dont break federal law.

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Starry Messenger]

58. Oh, I've been expecting it.

It was the next act in the little drama going on here.

[glitch]

63. Ayup. nt

[flyarm]

74. +++ yep..get in line, or they line you up! eom

[proud2BlibKansan]

137. +1

[maryf]

160. dontcha just wish you could be surprised???

it would have to be super amazing...like some realism or something...

[Starry Messenger]

166. Well, on this I would like to be surprised.

But the patterns are pretty well worn in at this point. Plus there is precedent with the Red Scare in education in the 1950s. This movie might be getting remade...I've been kind of anticipating it, actually.

[maryf]

187. me too nt

[Rex]

227. +5

[msanthrope]

81. Serving a warrant is the OPPOSITE of fascism---

You think actual fascists use warrants?

[EFerrari]

100. Wrong. Serving a warrant as a means of intimidation is precisely facism.

You think they actually expect to bag a terra-ist?

Baloney.

[Pavulon]

103. They got a few guys here, selling cigs and giving money to hamas

they will do at least 25 years then be deported back to where they came from.

[laughingliberal]

240. +1000 nt

[Go2Peace]

184. Right. That is how it looks in the old movies. Facism must work that way

right?

You do know they have judges and papers in fascism and most dictatorships right?

[Catherina]

153. DINOs. I'm done mincing my words. Dinos who'd slit your throat if asked to n/t

[flyarm]

68. well there will be by the majority here..but the minority will see to it that that new poster DELETE

shows up, and then we will see a minority , a small minority, at that take over the conversation with nothing but excuses!

It' the new GOTV program!

[pleah]

29. So, the FBI is in the Union busting business now? n/t

[madfloridian]

33. Don't you just wonder what's in those boxes?

Info about union folks? Info about college students?

Doesn't it feel great to live in America where Democrats control all parts of the government??

[flyarm]

46. where any of these people involved in shit canning the Teachers Union in Chicago?

and the adminsitrators of the old union in Chicago?

or organizing to do the same?

sorry I don't know , but this should be looked into!

[felix_numinous]

75. Quick get out some teabagz nt

[EFerrari]

82. That's what Rumi would do, clearly.

LOL

[madfloridian]

94. More details from Chicago Tribune

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/ct-met-fbi-terrorism-investigation-20100924,0,4070320.story

Sounds like a really big fishing expedition.

[Pavulon]

98. Here is the part that will get him a hard 20

Burke said he received a grand jury subpoena requesting records of payments to Abudayyeh's organization as well as two groups among the State Department's list of foreign terrorist organizations, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine and the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC).

If he did he is quite fucked.

[msanthrope]

124. It ges better---

"I have met with Colombian rebels in Colombia," said Sundin. "Those are all countries in which I have provided political act support to campaigns to get our government out and to end U.S. aid to repressive governments."

Asked if he has done anything beyond marching, talking and holding signs, Iosbaker said, "We've done nothing that we're not proud of, but I'm not gonna say any more."


http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/local&id=7687996

[Pavulon]

127. Hmm Material support, I guess his right to silence was passed on..

what an idiot.

[eilen]

141. Didnt he say something about that not being a possibility

as he has trouble just paying his rent?

[msanthrope]

111. That's no fishing expedition.

So far, you have at least these people and a scheduled grand jury.


Mick Kelly, Jess Sundin, Meredith Aby, Tracy Molm, Steff Yorek, Thomas Burke in Minneapolis, Stephanie Weiner, Joseph Iosbaker, and Hatem Abudayyeh, in Chicago.

They've progressed past a fishing expedition.

[EFerrari]

140. No, they haven't. Show me the evidence. You can't. There isn't any. n/t

[woo me with science]

164. Honest question: If there turns out to be evidence of material support of Hamas,

FARC, or Al Qaeda, will you care?

[Pavulon]

169. nope they could give a fuck

they are just about the drama. they dont care about the law, hundreds of years of jurisprudence or the federal court system. They are emotion driven and fact stunted.

they ride the emotion

[msanthrope]

291. I was speaking of process...

The FBI isn't fishing anymore.

You don;t get raids in two states and a federal grand jury in Chicago on a mere fishing expedition.

That's serious time and money spent by the Feds.

And the evidence will come out if they go to trial.

[msanthrope]

112. That's no fishing expedition.

So far, you have at least these people and a scheduled grand jury.


Mick Kelly, Jess Sundin, Meredith Aby, Tracy Molm, Steff Yorek, Thomas Burke in Minneapolis, Stephanie Weiner, Joseph Iosbaker, and Hatem Abudayyeh, in Chicago.

They've progressed past a fishing expedition.

[laughingliberal]

241. Yep.

Thank God for the Patriot Act!

:sarcasm: because, sadly, it's needed.

[merqz]

129. who cares what their profession or activism is?

I care if there was valid probable cause to issue the warrant. Peace Activists (real or otherwise), Teachers, or anybody else isn't somehow magickally incapable of committing actual crimes, or being in possession of evidence, etc. relevant to crimes. If I found out tomorrow that the FBI raided Mr Rogers' house, would I assume the warrant was invalid because ... well... everybody loves Mr. Rogers?

I remain agnostic on this. Assuming this isn't some sort of super secret FISA'esque warrant(s), the affidavit will be available soon enough, and THAT's the primary source document to read to help determine if the warrant(s) are valid or not. I've read tons of posts that just ASSUME the warrants are invalid, because well... they are nice people, or they are peace activists, like that's somehow a shield against committing crimes.

[madfloridian]

130. All I know is that hubby and I are done with protesting wars.

It scares me enough to back off from it.

[maryf]

161. mission accomplished in part then...

:cry:

[madfloridian]

172. Yep, mission accomplished. We had a great group every week.

But now we don't.

People stopped going just like our DFA which fell apart as well. It's hard to be an activist in our area anyway, and there has to be some incentive.

[maryf]

190. Please check this out from my email...

If you want contact info pm me...

This is a listing of actions on Monday and Tuesday, Sept 28 and 29.

It is in response to the Minneapolis Antiwar Committee's Call for Emergency Actions to Support Anti-War and International Solidarity Activists & Stop FBI Raids and Harassment at Federal Buildings and FBI Offices.

It is 13 cities so far.

We plan to post a major National email on Sunday morning to all of our IAC email lists.

It would list all the cities that we know of so far and include the email from Minneapolis calling for coordinated actions.

If you are posting this to other lists let’s be sure to include the demands and the cities where emergency actions are planned.

**Stop the repression against anti-war and international solidarity activists.

**Immediately return all confiscated materials: computers, cell phones, papers, documents, etc.

**End the grand jury proceedings against anti-war activists.



We need to reach far beyond ourselves and awaken the whole movement to this enormous threat.

How much support there is and whether we can turn this attack back will impact all of our plans in the coming period.

The subpoenas to appear before the Grand Jury start on Oct 5, then Oct 12, 19.


Let’s include as many cities as we possibly can.

Please let me know if you know of ANY other actions.

Many Thanks,

Sara’

Minneapolis MN, Monday: 4:30, FBI Office Monday, 111 Washington Ave. S.

Chicago, IL, Monday: 4:30 FBI Building, 2111 W. Roosevelt Rd.

NYC, Tues. 4:30 to 6pm Federal Building, 26 Federal Plaza,

Newark, NJ Tues 5 to 6pm Federal Building Broad Street

Washington DC, Tues 4:30 – 5:30 FBI Building 935 Pennsylvania Ave NW.

Detroit MI Tuesday 4:30 McNamara Federal Building

Buffalo, NY 4:30 at FBI Building - Corner of So. Elmwood Ave. & Niagara St.

Durham NC on Monday, 12 noon Federal Building, 323 E Chapel Hill St

Raleigh NC. Tuesday 9 am. Federal Building, 310 New Bern Ave

Asheville, NC Tuesday

Atlanta, GA, Tues Noon, FBI Building

Gainesville, FL on Monday, 4:30 PM at FBI Building

Salt Lake City, Utah, 9 AM on Monday at Federal Building



Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 3:25:46 PM
Subject: Emergency Actions to Support Anti-War and International Solidarity Activists: Stop FBI Raids and Harassment

Emergency Actions to Support Anti-War and International Solidarity Activists



Stop FBI Raids and Harassment



A call for action at Federal Buildings and FBI Offices.



We denounce the Federal Bureau of Investigation harassment of anti-war and solidarity activists. The FBI raided seven houses and an office in Chicago and Minneapolis on Friday, September 24, 2010. The FBI handed subpoenas to testify before a federal grand jury to eleven activists in Illinois, Minnesota, and Michigan. The FBI also attempted to intimidate activists in California and North Carolina.



This suppression of civil rights is aimed at those who dedicate their time and energy to supporting the struggles of the Palestinian and Colombian peoples against U.S. funded occupation and war. The FBI has indicated that the grand jury is investigating the activists for possible material support of terrorism charges.

The activists involved have done nothing wrong and are refusing to be pulled into conversations with the FBI about their political views or organizing against war and occupation. The activists are involved with many groups, including: the Twin Cities Anti-War Committee, the Palestine Solidarity Group, the Colombia Action Network, Students for a Democratic Society, and Freedom Road Socialist Organization. These activists came together with many others to organize the 2008 anti-war marches on the Republican National Convention in St. Paul.


We ask people of conscience to join us in fighting this political repression, as we continue working to build the movements against US war and occupation.



Take Action:


Call the U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder at 202-353-1555 or write an email to: [e-mail].



Demand:



**Stop the repression against anti-war and international solidarity activists.



**Immediately return all confiscated materials: computers, cell phones, papers, documents, etc.



**End the grand jury proceedings against anti-war activists.





Plan and Support national days of protest at FBI offices or Federal Buildings, September 27 and 28th.



A demonstration has been called at the Minneapolis FBI Office Monday, 4:30, September 27th(111 Washington Ave. S.).



In Solidarity, the Anti-War Committee – www.antiwarcommittee.org

[EFerrari]

139. What is probable cause under the Patriot Act?

And why would you discount the FBI's history of harrassing activists with no probable cause whatsoever? That defies logic, actually.

[merqz]

144. I'm not discounting anything

I am saying, as any thinking person should - there are not enough facts released to know what the #$(#$( is going on. I don't know WHAT the PC *is* or *isn't* nor do you. But I don't assume innocence or guilt based on the "activism pedigree" of the suspect. And I do know from personal experience, that just because somebody claims to be X, does not mean they also can't be doing Y. Peace activists and teachers are not some sort of special group of people who never commit crimes. It would be prejudiced to assume FBI harassment here, just as it would be prejudice to assume they are guilty merely because a warrant was issued. How about, god forbid, we wait for some actual case facts, interviews, reports, or at least a PC affidavit. Things are not always as they seem - that works both ways. Not all peace activists and teachers are saints.

[EFerrari]

152. It's not about the subjects in any way. Logic requires that

you bring all your experience to bear, all the facts at your disposal. Part of those facts are the FBI's long history of illegal behavior against peaceful, innocent activists. Taking that into account it not prejudice, it's common sense.

[merqz]

156. no, it's not

that can be a factor to consider. But it is not dispostive. Iow, yes - sometimes the FBI has done evul shit against activists. Duh. On a multitude of other occasions, they didn't. We have no way of knowing if this is the former or the latter. Your assumption would be like assuming a person was guilty of a crime they were arrested for, because they had a record of having committed that crime in the past. Is it RELEVANT ? yes (although not generally admissible in a court of law with a few exceptions). Is it DISPOSITIVE? no

So, again. This MAY be an example of the FBI fucking with innocent people. Or it may not. And we don't know which

[EFerrari]

157. Um, my assumption is that the FBI has a long history of malfeasance.

Which is factual. And I brought that up in response to your question, "who cares what their profession or activism is".

The answer is, you should care because it is among the facts in evidence. :)

[merqz]

158. oh, my bad

Actually, that's a good point. While I certainly disagree that one should ASSUME the FBI has done anything wrong (or right) in this case, it is certainly a fact, and thus one should "care" in that respect. I stand corrected.

[Go2Peace]

176. I think the problem is our policies have become witch hunts

In this age anyone who is involved in humanitarian activity worldwide could inadvertantly end up giving money to an organization and have that labled as supporting "terrorism", even when they had no intention to do so. I think that is likely what happened.

The real problem is creeping authoritarianism. There needs to be a higher bar on these things, get back to innocent until proven guilty. And moving our justice system back again to a point where it actually includes wisdom.

[Hannah Bell]

293. no different than the mccarthy era, including the part about people donating to

so anti-war or orphans charity & getting hauled up as communists.

[RandomThoughts]

138. I wil protest the wars of agression.

heh, might even raid a few houses myself. Although they would not be peace activist houses. Those houses I support and I like most of those houses :)



I think I know what they are looking for, they are trying to find network connections. That is funny.




Side note: I am still due beer and travel money, and many good experiences.


To explain it, they have attached, code pink, to the lady in pink.

Maybe it is something else... An interesting concept...

Pink Panther.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhHwnrlZRus

[Panaconda]

165. K&R n/t

[apocalypsehow]

182. Perhaps they should not have (allegedly) participated in criminal acts. Just a thought.

:shrug:

[TBF]

186. Time for a history lesson.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmer_Raids

The Palmer Raids were attempts by the United States Department of Justice to arrest and deport left-wing radicals, especially anarchists, from the United States. The raids and arrests occurred in November 1919 and January 1920 under the leadership of Attorney General A. Mitchell Palmer. Though more than 500 foreign citizens were deported, including a number of prominent leftist leaders, Palmer's efforts were largely frustrated by officials at the US Department of Labor who had responsibility for deportations and who objected to Palmer's methods and disrespect for the legal process. The Palmer Raids occurred in the larger context of the Red Scare, the term given to American fear of and reaction against political radicals in the years immediately following World War I.

(much more at the link)

[annabanana]

189. +1 . . . .n/t

[maryf]

192. Has this ever been an OP?

Maybe it would be a good idea? :)

[TBF]

195. Yes, that has been on my mind -

but it needs to happen during the week when more people are around.

[maryf]

197. I'm mostly here on weekends...

pm me when it happens? thanks! :fistbump:

[laughingliberal]

249. Thank you. Same as it ever was....nt

[apocalypsehow]

262. Time for a relevant reply to the issue under discussion. Get back to me when you have one. Thanks.

:thumbsup:

[TBF]

269. The fact that you're not enraged tells me all I need to know.

I will save my time for conversing with those who give a damn about solidarity with other workers.

[BrklynLiberal]

193. sad, sad sad and very scary.

nauseatingly reminds me of:
In Germany they first came for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.

Then they came for me —
and by that time no one was left to speak up.

Pastor Martin Niemöller

[BrklynLiberal]

194. sad, sad sad and very scary.

nauseatingly reminds me of:
In Germany they first came for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.

Then they came for me —
and by that time no one was left to speak up.

Pastor Martin Niemöller

[Sixathome]

198. Remember the Rosenbergs?

They had ties, friends etc to the teacher's union which at the time was very pro-socialist. The court documents and later investigation prove that the government case was full of lies and paid informants. It was our way of TERRORIZING the public about socialism/communism and unions. Two died for our sins of misplaced faith in the "system".
The book ,Invitation to an Inquest, is one of many on the criminal intent of the gov..
Yes, you may be next. Just a show for your neighbors but none the less a message on how to behave!
I have had the man at my door asking about my religion and my intentions on movement....anyone heard of me? Is religion illegal?
The US uses the National Endowment for Democracy and USAID to infiltrate and break unions world wide, Why not here?
In my short time here it seems there are a lot of pseudo free thinkers here ( not that all have to ring in agreement)

[Starry Messenger]

199. Some of us remember. n/t

[Sixathome]

294. Those who do not know history

are doomed to repeat it. Better study.
The entire history of the FBI is one of repression. From the beginning it was an out of control agency. Not the TV Hollywood version of the saintly G-Men.

[DevonRex]

206. This is the most insane OP I've ever seen. nt

[madfloridian]

211. For you to call my OP insane....well

I take no offense. It means it struck a nerve.

[wundermaus]

213. DU could easily fall prey to exactly the same FBI actions.

Dissent is subversion and can be interpreted as terrorist activity. There is no longer any legal due process or evidence requirements. Just the perception of intent to commit a crime is sufficient to trigger search and seizure, rendition, and indefinite detention. We are all witnessing the shift of our nation from liberty to tyranny. Fascism is the rule of law now. And fascism does not need any stinkin' rules of law to do what ever it wants. This isn't a Democrat or Republican thing, this treason to the US Constitution sort of thing. Corporations have no allegiance to human rights or moral imperative to the adherence to the rule of law. Speak out at your own peril because peace activism threatens the corporatist interests now running our government. So here is a hint to those here who think they have the right to speak out. You don't. The meat grinders fascism is in full swing. And We, the People are screwed.

[sulphurdunn]

214. That's a cheery thought

[Hannah Bell]

220. +100.

[MajorChode]

226. As far as I know, DU doesn't openly support terrorist organizations

I still plan on sleeping well.

[Techn0Girl]

235. I'm sure all those who participated in Kristalnacht slept very soundly afterwards...

There's really nothing more to say other than fascism happens as much by the apathy and willing unawareness of the average Joe as it does by the application of force and intimidation by the fascist entities.

[MajorChode]

246. I'm sure those who supported McVeigh thought they were patriots

I'm sure we could opine all day long over things nobody here knows for sure. What I find truly amusing is some here pretend to know those involved are innocent and they hyperbole keeps getting more and more outrageous. As if the allegations of McCarthy era harassment weren't bad enough, now you want to claim encroaching fascism. You might want to wait until a few more facts are known before you start slinging allegations like that. Saves on the embarrassment factor later.

[Techn0Girl]

248. "What I find truly amusing is some here pretend to know those involved are innocent"

In MY country you ARE innocent ... until proven guilty.
True Americans cherish that.

I don't EVER want to be a part of YOUR country.

[MajorChode]

255. You're quoting the standards for the government, dear

Last time I checked in MY country one can express whatever opinions one wants. So YOUR country must be one where freedom of speech is forbidden. I don't think I'd want to live there.

Wow! Your silly hyperbole game sure is fun!

I'm not pretending they are guilty or innocent, BTW.

Cheers!

[Techn0Girl]

268. You can play children's games of shifting around your argument as it pleases you....

But it only makes you look sillier.

The fact remains that REAL Americans know that one is innocent until proven guilty.
If YOU want to declare these people guilty - as you already have - then you aren't really in touch with the Constitution are you?

You either believe in our Constitutional protections or you don't.
So far you have indicated to everyone here that you feel WE have to prove these people innocent.
We don't

I side with the Constitution.
Who do you side with?

Your constantly shifting focus seems disingenuous to me.

[MajorChode]

274. Have you ever bothered to even read the Constitution?

Do you actually believe the FBI can't pursue a search warrant until someone is proven guilty? Do you have any idea how idiotic that is?

[EFerrari]

252. The embarrassment factor goes in both directions and historically,

it goes in the direction of having faith in the Federal Bureau of Invention's attacks on peaceful citizens.

[MajorChode]

259. You mean like Waco and Ruby Ridge?

I had forgotten all about those peace loving citizens. Thanks for the reminder.

Cheers!

[EFerrari]

265. Maybe you've forgotten about COINTELPRO

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO

And then, there is the widespread CHEATING on their due process exams

Putting the 'F' in FBI: Did agents cheat on tests?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38446997/ns/politics/

Not to mention, the FBI always telling the truth about their activities like the good boy scouts they are.

FBI misled Justice about spying on peace group

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/spy-talk/2010/09/fbi_cover-up_turns_laughable_s.html?hpid=moreheadlines

How anyone who can read defends these people is beyond me. Sorry.

[MajorChode]

267. Wow! Only a half-century old too!

As much fun as this has been, I think I'm done here.

Cheers!

[EFerrari]

242. You know and I know that the FBI isn't interested in actual terrorists

or they would have known that their own informant was housing 9/11 hijackers in San Diego.

[MajorChode]

247. I forgot to put on my foil hat this morning

So I can't say I know that.

Cheers!

[EFerrari]

250. Get it out!

Hijackers Lived With FBI Informant

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/09/09/attack/main521223.shtml

There's no real tin foil here. It's just sort of an embarrassing example of how unconcerned the FBI is about actual terrorists.

lol

[MajorChode]

253. So based on one example of one FBI agent, the whole agency is unconcerned about "actual terrorists"?

That's a little too far into tin-foil hat land for me. YMMV.

[EFerrari]

260. Well, I could cite the Bruce Ivins debacle

where no scientist that doesn't work for the FBI credits their "case" against him and where even their rock star scientist said that science can't solve the case.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3976465

The FBI spends more time stalking vegans, peace grannies and Quakers than it does fighting actual terrorism. Although, you may have a quiverful of stories that contradict that. Let's see 'em.

[MajorChode]

264. So now it's my job to disprove your assertion that you never proved to begin with?

Even if I were interested in pursuing your tangential discussion (and I'm not), I'm not going to to play those games. Your own assertions do a fine job of showing how weak your argument is. I see no reason to pile on, however rather than a "quiverful", I'll just give you one much more recent example for you to chew on. From there you can continue on your own.
http://womensrights.change.org/blog/view/fbi_arrests_anti-choice_terrorist_for_north_carolina_abortion_clinic_bomb_plot

Have a nice day!

[EFerrari]

266. That in no way speaks to the FBI's traditional war on peaceful activists.

Nor does anything they did at Ruby Ridge or Waco.

That was their job, remember? They do have a job.

[Name removed]

271. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TBF]

272. Sadly I fear you are right. Gibbs wasn't just talking out of

school - that was a warning.

[EC]

236. Are we really sure that Obama has a clue this is even

going on? Or is this a FBI rouge operation of some sort?

[EFerrari]

243. Does it matter? It still happened.

Maybe I don't understand your question.

[TBF]

254. Is that a serious question? nt

[ooglymoogly]

261. Sure Holder doesn't know anything about it.

Fer Sher dooood.

[Scruffy1]

301. He'll be shocked I'm sure

I think they are so afraid of the FBI that they will let them do anything they want.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

244. There appear to be two Freedom Road Socialist Organizations

http://www.freedomroad.org/

"Although the organization in question has a similar name to ours, we are different organizations. (We are officially Freedom Road Socialist Organization/Organización Socialista del Camino para la Libertad (FRSO/OSCL).) We were not targets in these raids."

The other one:

http://www.frso.org/

[MajorChode]

251. They used to be one and the same

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FRSO#The_1999_Split

The one that is under investigation seems to have a bit more love for foreign terrorist organizations.

[Freddie Stubbs]

302. The Judean People's Front vs. The People's Front of Judea

[Pisces]

283. Maybe they were running a pedophile ring???/