Something that has been missing from all of these discussions about education reform: bad parenting

[bluestateguy]

We have kicked around topics like charter schools, unions, teacher tenure, getting rid of bad teachers, more money, school discipline, charter schools and clueless administrators.

But where do parents fit into all of this? Amid all of the chest thumping about personal responsibility, professional standards, accountability--all of which I am for--where do parents fit into these questions?

I can tell you that over and over again what I saw as a student was very common: students with parents who valued education and made it a priority did well in school, while parents who were negligent and indifferent about education had children who did poorly.

[Hannah Bell]

1. parents income is the factor which most closely correlates with school performance.

[FreakinDJ]

9. Same with Lower Income and Alchohol and Drug Abuse rates

what is your point

[Hannah Bell]

10. my point is that if you want the "underclass" to have the same results the middle or upper classes

do, they need to become middle or upper class.

no amount of charters or educational privatization will change the basic fact of class hierarchy -- which reverberates with effects in every aspect of social life.

[izquierdista]

21. You do homage to your avatar

I think that one thing that has happened is that class struggle has been turned upside down. Used to be that people struggled to move UP in class; knew that a better life for their children would happen if they emulated higher classes. Not so much any more. Now there is a certain popularity to being a "gangsta", and children aspiring to that class are taking the elevator down to the basement.

I would lay the blame on the "haves and have-mores", that top 1%. They certainly don't like the light shining on them (no cockroach does), so they keep the classes below them in turmoil, fighting against one another while they skim off the profits.

[Hannah Bell]

110. i think you're guilty of vast overgeneralization.

1. involvement in gangs & crime *is* (or can be) a path to upward mobility & status, & every poor group in the past has had members who used that path -- as shown by the historic transitions in which ethnic groups were the public face/majority membership of "gangs" during which period/place (it's been jews, irish, italians, chinese, latinos from various places, blacks (native-born & immigrant), & more.

2. At the same time, there were always members of those ethnic groups/classes pursuing legitimate advancement/work.

3. At the same time, there was a synergy between the criminal side & the legit side, with gang leaders financing legitimate businesses under the table, as "angel" etc. One easy example = Sinatra, who reportedly got his start in mafia-owned clubs & with gang money greasing the PR wheels -- & continued to associate with gang figures even after he became a "success".

There are similar cases in the music industry today.

Nothing in particular has changed that I can see -- except some of the rungs in the ladder that once led to "advancement" have been kicked out & low-wage work pays less (adjusted dollars) than it did in the 50s.

[MajorChode]

94. Most of the time they are further handicapped by poorer school districts

Throw in single parent households and all the other things mentioned and few have any chance at all.

I don't think it's necessarily true that you have to bring them up to the same income level for the kids to succeed, but you'd need to spend a lot of money on environmental and societal issues like after school activities, child care, tutoring, nutrition and so forth, not to mention resource issues like better teachers and equipment. It's just that the easiest way is to bring up the incomes, as you suggest.

[Hannah Bell]

114. spending money on hiring others to "help" the poor is a sop to the middle class, &

increases the alienation & anger of the poor.

No one wants to be the object of charity. It's degrading when one is always in the "down" position. And it's equally harmful to those in the "up" position, though they often don't realize it.

[MajorChode]

116. It's a mute point to begin with

It's not as if anyone is going to go to all that effort in the first place. It's easier just to ignore them or reinvent the education system and/or blame it all on the teachers.

[AngryAmish]

145. moot

[MajorChode]

149. Thanx

[donquijoterocket]

158. issues

I find most of the issues discussed in relation to education to be secondary. It's long been my contention that we'll not really get anything done in the area until we, as a society, decide what constitutes a "good" education and a "well-educated" person.Without those specific targets to aim at it's just like mad minute in the free fire zone.

[defendandprotect]

159. Correct ... these children/parents and communities are impoverished ....

yet some expect the same results of "enrichment" from them as we see from

wealthier communities with well-cared for children by well-educated parents!!

Amazing!!

:)

[proud2BlibKansan]

11. Because of what I teach, I get to keep my kids for several years

I have kids who came from very poor families and I can't put into words how much I admire some of their parents. It's been a joy to watch these children grow up in such wonderful families. One mom went to school at night for 5 years while working fast food. Dad was in an accident at work and is permanently disabled. Some kind of head injury. Mom finally earned her associates degree and is working in a day care center now and loves it. She is also in school to become a teacher. And yes, her children are great kids, hard workers who rarely miss school. Mom asks me to help her with term papers and other writing assignments. She even offered to pay me to tutor her. I told her it was such a joy I could never ask for money. So every couple weeks, her daughter handed me a big brown envelope with Mom's paper in it. And yes, I gladly looked it over.

Another family I just love has 6 children. Every single one has perfect attendance in school going back to kindergarten. Mom is disabled. Not sure what her disability is exactly but she can't drive and is homebound. Also in the hospital every year or so for a week. But every time we had any function at school, she found a way to get there to support her kids. Dad works 2 jobs and uses public transportation to get to both. (Not easy in this city.) Last year their landlord lost the house (foreclosure) and Mom managed to find a new house in our attendance area and move the entire family - without a car - in 10 days. And yes, the kids came to school every single day. We accidentally found out at school they were moving and I called Mom and said please, let us help, what can the teachers do for you? And she said not a thing. She was already unpacking in her new home. So we took up a collection and gave her some money. She called me crying to thank us.

Not all families let poverty keep them from being good for their children and teaching them valuable life lessons.

[auntAgonist]

27. I wish I could K&R your post.

Very uplifting stories. Thanks for sharing your experiences with these children and their parents.

Amazing families.

:applause:

aA

[lumberjack_jeff]

142. +1 n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

2. Well parents aren't employed by school districts

So how can we hold them accountable? We have child neglect laws that allow child protective services to step in when parents are grossly negligent. But what can we do before it gets to that point?

I teach elementary school and every year deal with parents who can't manage to get their children to school daily and on time. It's unreal. A kid told me he didn't come to school because he was tired. So I asked when he went to bed and he said midnight. He's 8. Several others don't bother to show up for weeks once school started. How hard can it be to get your child to school on the first day? Apparently too hard for some.

Yes obviously I want parents held accountable but I don't know how we are supposed to do that.

[seabeyond]

4. reality? all the changes, all the fixes come to not when a child does NOT want to learn. nt

[sandnsea]

14. ALL children want to learn

And I think if you think for a second, you'll realize you meant to say something different.

Some kids may have issues that aren't conducive to them learning in a classroom, but it's not that they don't want to learn. They want to learn something, even if it's how to burn down the school! That was a little joke.

[seabeyond]

30. are you mad!!! no, many children, more and more do NOT wnat to learn

refuse to learn. put heals down and say no no no. they when they flunk out, the parent blames the school. i see it over and over. the families that have the expectation of academics as a priority, the kid. the info is all on computer if parents to follow. they dont. the tutoring before and after class is there, the kids dont go and the parents get pissed when teachers insist.

i see over and over where academics has no priority in the family.

i totally disagree with you premise. i think it is more apt to be the kid doesnt want to do the work.... but if they are in an environment where there is NO alternative, they do it.

that is about like... all adults want to work. no, not really. they do it cause they have to.

[sandnsea]

35. That is pure crap

I'm really sorry and disappointed you believe that.

I have worked with kids my entire life, from Head Start to day care to sports and scouts. I have not met one child, NOT ONE, that didn't want to learn something.

You have really been bamboozled by the blame the parents crowd.

[seabeyond]

no. head start and young, one of the best programs that is being cut, is a time kids will learn.

about middle school the kid learns he does not have to learn. no one can force him to do shit. without the foundation and structure the kid is going to do as he pleases.

i am around many kids myself and see.

what we else would you like the schools to do?

as far as i see with the schools, kids cant get away with shit, the education is there for them if they want, the tutoring is offered if they need...

what more do you want to make sure the older kids get to class.

[sandnsea]

39. If schools haven't laid the foundation

in the lower grades, then that middle school student has no chance. If the schools have laid that foundation, then even if that middle schooler gets beligerent for a year or two, they still have that foundation to pick up and go on. Most do eventually. Provided they aren't in a school that helps them drop out instead of helping them to succeed. I've seen the difference.

It is just so sad to me that so many people live in the kinds of environments where kids are just thrown away and they don't think a thing about it. It doesn't have to be that way. Again, I've seen the difference. With my own kids and many others. Change to a different school, in the same city, and the kid suddenly does miraculously better - just because they have a different discipline policy or teachers who are more invested in the kids.

[seabeyond]

59. my youngest couldnt get multiplication memorized for anything. a couple years

teachers worked on multiplication.

still, 7th grade has forgotten again.

not the teachers fault. they taught him. they worked it. they did their job. do i blame them that still i am going over multiplication with my child? now that he is starting the new year, going thru them until he memorizes them again, for the time, until he forgets?

foundation.

multiplication is the foundation

the teachers certainly taught him and put in the time

this is on him

not teachers

[mzteris]

85. here's some books for ou

A Mind at a Time

The Myth of Laziness

both by Mel Levine

Please read them. It sounds like there may be some non-identified learning issues.

Also read up on dyscalcula.


Peace.

[seabeyond]

90. i read a mind at a time for my oldest.

both my children's have their peculiarities in studying that we have had to embrace and figure out.

i might have given my copy to another. i may have to read again.

i had the kid tested two or three times over a 6/7 yr period in early days. he has a whole grouping of issue from ticks, to swallowing issues, to poor motor skills. we just have not found that particulars. his doctor and i chose to accept who he is in the unknown.

oldest, his issues were easy.... fuzzy brain. lol

i know... nothing in our family and two out there kids.

thanks though.

[reggie the dog]

115. i teach in high school

and i can tell you that by the time they are teenagers some kids give up and only come to school to sell drugs, set up drug deals, insult members of rivial gangs and hit on girls/guys.....

how do you teach history to a kid who just wants to sell heroin on the street corner so they can pay for eyeglasses for their little sister????? really lots of kids are fucked and just want money to buy basic things and education is just not the way they see themselves going (after all their parents who are dirt poor work) so they give up on the system and decide to be gangsters and therefor dont need an education and refuse to learn.

[uncommon]

124. Perhaps with older children, but younger kids always want to learn and that passion

could survive into middle and high school if they had the support of parents and engaging programs at school

[seabeyond]

133. i am referring to the older student that has the ability and desire to mae own decisions

young kids are easy.

once they get a certain age, if they dont want to learn, they wont. if they dont want to succeed, no matter what school, parents or court system doe, they will not succeed.

people, adult, across the realm, are trying.

[Gin]

8. but if that kid scores low on his tests, YOU are held responsible

and that is not fair to the teachers..don't know how to overcome parental neglect...teachers have a tough job.

[JVS]

38. You could have a system where better rated parents get first choice of good schools.

Something along those lines would hold parents accountable.

[proud2BlibKansan]

45. How do you rate them?

What happens when they fail to score at an acceptable level on this rating?

[uncommon]

127. This would amount to sending kids who are already horribly disadvantaged to the shittiest schools

possible.

This does NOT serve the students.

[seabeyond]

3. exactly. right on. truth. nt

[FreakinDJ]

5. Stop it Right Now with the Reality Check

[sandnsea]

6. Teachers always blame the parents

They do it in the education forum every single day, every hour of the day. You probably just haven't wandered over there.

New schools use curriculums that include the parents on an almost daily basis. They also don't tell the parents to shut up when they share information about their child or express an opinion on a teaching or discipline method.

Funny that all these kids with bad parents go to different schools and succeed.

It's not the parents. Any kid can learn.

[Curmudgeoness]

17. You really mean to say that parents do not have any responsibility

for how their kids are shaped? Really? A teacher is not with that child nearly as often as the parent. The child comes to a teacher with years of learning already from birth to starting school. Unlearning some of the habits they have been taught can be a challenge.

I will not give a pass to the parents. They have to step up to the plate and take some of the responsibility for their child. There is plenty of blame to go around, but bashing teachers is the politically correct thing to do these days, I suppose.

[sandnsea]

37. Love how people distort what I say

Because they don't want to deal with the fact that there are just bad schools out there, from the top to the bottom.

Have you never seen a child who refused to do what their parent says... because "teacher" said they were supposed to do something else?

I just had my 5 year old grandchild refuse to follow my directions when getting off the bus. Turns out they've implemented a new policy since I rode the bus and it makes much more sense. But I didn't know that. So don't tell me that everything at school begins and ends with parents. It doesn't. Kids do what the teacher says way more often than what the parent tells them to do.

And yes, a kid in a failing school can be moved to a different school and voila, succeed. Sometimes the school approaches the parents differently, sometimes the school has a better special ed teacher, sometimes the school has a positive discipline policy, all kinds of things that the SCHOOL does can make the difference.

[Curmudgeoness]

53. I did not distort what you said. I focussed on what you said

about teachers always blaming it on parents. I do not disagree that there are bad teachers, or that there are students who can do better with a different teacher or a different school. What I do disagree with is that the blame is "teachers". You obviously agree with me, even if you don't realize it. You are blaming schools. Schools are much more than teachers, in fact, teachers are working under rules set up by a number of adminstrators who are above them in authority.

Are there bad teachers? Certainly. But if you have had a bad experience with a school or a teacher, that does not mean that every teacher or every school is bad. In fact, there are times that a particular student responds to different methods or individual teachers, not that the "bad" teacher is really bad, but that the other teacher just has a different style.

Teacher bashing, without any responsibility on parents, is just wrong. Getting a teaching certificate does not include a magic wand that can be used to change a student. Teachers are only humans, working under the conditions that have been set up in that school.

[seabeyond]

55. you know what hapens when my kids gets a "bad" teacher, or teacher whose style is contradictive to

my kid

i tell him to suck it up. it is his job to figure out how to pass that class. i will hire tutors, he can get friends, whatever it takes, doesnt matter. it effects him. it is his future.

no whine. no excuse.

real world. we will have people we work with that does not have our best interest, or that does not jive with our personality. so what.

[sandnsea]

93. Wow. That's the exact wrong thing to do

I'm not about to let my kid sit in a classroom for a year with a shitty teacher. I had one dumbass that had my kid writing his misspelled words ten times a piece. Well see, that particular kid had a diagnosed writing disability and the teacher was simply reinforcing the misspellings - and making my kid too tired to be able to do any of the rest of his school work. I just pulled him out of that school altogether.

I can see that the problem with a lot of kids IS the parents - but not in the way these teachers think it is. Telling your kid to suck it up for an entire school year is BAD parenting. Sorry, it just is.

[seabeyond]

102. and my kids can deal with any particular teacher and continue to be successful

oldest has had one teacher i would consider bad, and only cause her english was so bad it was hard for him, in spanish. another, her style was laid back and because of sons learning issues he needs a quiet, well structured class... all the other kids excelled in her free flowing class. he was only second grade, so we were able to go over the work at home, one on one attention, for his particular issues and he did well. the next year i asked for the most structured teacher and got it. she also had masters in learning behaviors so we spent the year dealing with his issues. another, 7th grade math teacher, personality difference. he never gets a cop out for personality differences. he shuts down and refuses to learn. not ok. he had to deal with it.

my youngest has had ONE teacher last year in english. he didnt like her. she might not have been good. yes... suck it up and keep your mouth shut and learn....

[sandnsea]

106. Well clearly no they can't

Because you just said up above that you've got a child who can't seem to remember multiplication tables from year to year. Either you've got a child with learning disabilities that you aren't addressing, or you're in a shitty school that Is Not putting in the appropriate time or implementing the appropriate strategies to teach your kid.

And THAT is why kids don't learn. You let the teachers blame your kid instead of YOU getting your ass to some other schools and figuring out if there are BETTER ways to teach.

There is NO reason for an otherwise good student to not know and remember multiplication.

[seabeyond]

107. i have had this kid tested at about 4, 6 and 8. i have had from regular doctor to allergy

doctors to neurologists testing him, sucking blood and looking in every directions to figure what is up with the kid. i took him into two different learning institutions to be evalutated. i have had cat scans on the child.

they dont have the answer.

no one has the answer.

so we allow he has these issues and is part of who he is, without an answer.

we dont know why he has particular problems with multiplication. but since the third grade ALL the teachers have worked with him, hands on. he is in algebra now, in the 7th grade. he gets straight A's with a B in math.

you think i am going to beat the kid up?

i have yet to have a teacher "blame" my kids for anything. my kids dont get in trouble in school, to be blamed. dont know wtf you are talking about with that.

because my kids have the particular issues in learning, we do not see them as an excuse. we recognize their issues and we work with the issues. and every teacher the kids have had, every last one of them, has listened to me when i tell them the issues, and deal with it also.

yes, i believe as my kids get older to deal with the issues that are presented them so that as they walk out in to the real world they are well and secure in their abilities to deal with all issues and people. such a bad idea.... but it works for us.

you might look at post 90. i discussed it with the other poster, when instead of being all pissy, she actually offered help with a book. a particular writer i am familiar with because i have already read it on children different learning styles....

[sandnsea]

97. I said "It's not the parents"

Any kid can learn.

And any kid can.

There are a whole lot of reasons that every kid isn't.

But I didn't say it was ALL the teachers. You assumed that's what I meant when I said "It's not the parents".

Further, not every school is set up to direct the way the teacher teaches or even the curriculum the teacher uses. My current school district is completely teacher directed, in every class room. There's no cohesive education going on at all. It's not like those schools where all first graders are doing dinosaurs in the 6th week and doing the planets in the 23rd week, or whatever. Those schools tend to work better, imho. In my current school district, if a kid in one English class can't pass the Oregon CIMS, they just go to an easier English teacher. They can literally get straight A's one year and F's the next, all because there's no continuity in education and they don't all learn what they need in each grade.

That's the school. And that's parents supporting the teaching profession and the ability of teachers to know how to teach their class.

Uh huh.

There's a lot going on in schools out there and I think most college degreed folks don't see them the way us peons do because you're not treated like we are.

[Curmudgeoness]

105. The beginning of this thread "Teachers always blame the parents".

That is where the discussion started.

But with that said, I am shocked that your school district is so disorganized. It makes no sense to me to have no set curriculum. I believe that teachers should have leeway in the classroom, but I also think that no direction at all creates havoc. I would hate to move to a different school in that district midyear with a child. That is a problem.

[yurbud]

31. the kids with ''bad'' parents don't go to charter schools

the problem with school choice is it only works for parents savvy enough to sift through the choices.

The rest of the kids get left in the neighborhood school with ever dwindling resources that are being siphoned off to feed the for profit scammers.

[H2O Man]

7. It's definitely a factor.

It plays a role.

[EFerrari]

12. Why do these discussions always begin with a scapegoat and work backward to a rationale?

That doesn't seem to me a very good way to solve anything.

/oops

[sandnsea]

13. Exactly. It's not any one thing

But there are models that address ALL aspects of successful schools and can be used in transforming failing schools. I really don't understand the opposition.

[waiting for hope]

22. What I don't hear in this discussion is how the family

model has changed over the years. Both my husband and I work, and he's working out of town right now so I know even more what it would be as a single parent. By the time I get out of work, pick up my two from after care, get home, it's almost 6:00. In a span of two hours, I have to get dinner on the table, help with homework (my Kindergartner needs the most, my 4th grader does most of his at after care, but not all), eat, bathe and in bed around 8:00. I went one week without having dinner with them because I was too busy taking care of things around the house, laundry, bills, cleaning up kitten stuff .. What is it like for a parent that has to work two jobs? Or when the child is being raised by a grandparent? Communities need the help, families need more resources for after care, women need to be paid a living wage for Christ's sake. Every teacher I have come in contact with loves their job and is excellent at it, every parent I have come in contact with wants their children to succeed. Yes, there are bad teachers and parents out there, but that number is small compared to all the good ones that are doing what they can to support the kids.

[Pisces]

28. Your post is very accurate. Everyone is doing the best they can, an unfortunatly

that isn't always good enough. I don't know why some feel threatened or scapegoated by anyone who is trying to help the children of today. I don't blame the teachers, or the parents. It is obvious
that we need a new model to reach some of the children most in need. If we want to break the poverty chain, education is the only way. Maybe those most opposed to these new methods should
use their passion to get their ideas included into these programs.

I can't understand how we as a nation can accept that a portion of society doesn't matter. That their children don't matter. If someone is trying to help them and there are results to show that the program is working we should take a closer look. We shouldn't try and tear it apart if our end goal is to educate children.

[seabeyond]

33. i agree with both your posts. nt

[EFerrari]

63. I've long thought that this nuclear family stuff

was mostly a set up for working families. :shrug:

[lumberjack_jeff]

26. +1

[seabeyond]

32. they PARENT is the childs ADVOCATE. the parent is the front line. the parent is the ultimate

one responsible for that child. scapegoat my ass.

teacher can accomplish NOTHING without the parent.

[etherealtruth]

51. That's not true

Good parenting definitely gives children an advantage .... children that have home lives that are less than ideal (ranging to horrid) are educable and worthy of the effort. It is part of the equation and part of the job. Good teachers accomplish a lot with these children; without "help" from parents. It is certainly less than ideal, but it is part of the job.

By and large most parents do the absolute best they can ...all of us are limited by income (abject poverty complicates everything), intellect and education levels, mental illness (and the subset of addiction), illness ... I could go on and on.

I am LUCKY .... I am a single mother and my children have done very well in the public school system. The children have two college educated parents, things are rough financially (but we are by no stretch of the imagination poor), I work extremely long hours but have a lot of support from my extended family .... we are LUCKY .... no more or less than that.

[seabeyond]

54. some of those kids will make it. many of those kids will not.

i am totally empathetic to the single parent and the two working house family. totally....

again, still not on the teachers shoulders. they can only do so much.

at a certain point, there is only so much even a parent can do

it is not a black and white. it is not an easy. it is a societal issue

and what about the kids that are not education material. there have always been the kids that dont do well in school. and even some that are not college material. we are not all created equal....how we journey in life. doesn't matter what a teacher, school or parent does for some kids.

i was smart. school too easy for me and STILL i could not stand school. didn't like be around people and didn't have the drive. i had the drive in work. so that is where i excelled. though without a degree.

some kids need vocational. and some kids wont even take that opportunity.

we are not going to be able to create utopia.... ever

[etherealtruth]

72. All kids are "education material" ... not all kids are interested in college

My two oldest children are high academic achievers. The youngest has never been interested in school (further complicated by a degenerative eye disease that has progressed rapidly over the course of the last two years).

I "retired" from nursing when my children were born and was a "stay-at home-mom" for a decade. LUCKY. On the flip side of the parenting issue ... I have also lived in areas where some (read many) parents have treated teachers like "lackies" or servants. I am sure that is similarly trying for teachers. As a teacher I would hope one would go into it accepting the good with the bad.


I have no problem with children that do not have the desire to attend a university.

I respect mechanics, bakers and crafts people as much as I respect nurses, attorneys, teachers .... we can't do without any of them.

"bad" homes have been around forever (I am not talking about homes that reach the definition of abusive or negligent, educating these kids is part of the job .... I can only imagine that reaching one of these children is more rewarding than reaching a child with every advantage.

[seabeyond]

74. plumber, mechanic, landscape business.... lots of professions out there

that are just as valuable as any college degree. success to me is not a degree. that is not my criteria. i understand not all are college material. it is those that insist all kids need a college degree. not gonna happen

[Codeine]

80. I really don't buy the notion that everyone is "education material."

Some people are just dumb. Thick. Dense. Not so bright. Pretending that everyone has a high-functioning intellect and an inquisitive nature is a recipe for disappointment, 'cause some folks just don't have a ton of brains. :shrug: Intelligence is a continuum in any population, and while some folks are geniuses others are imbeciles.

[seabeyond]

84. agree, again. and that is cool. it is ok. i mean, there has to be a below.... in average.

[Codeine]

88. Exactly.

I dated a really nice girl for a while; she was sweet, kind, loving, thoughtful, and just as dumb as a bag of hammers.

She functioned just fine at her level - held down a job and took care of herself - but she would have been completely lost trying to deal with higher education. It didn't make her a bad person, just a dumb person.

[etherealtruth]

87. ...and the dumb are not worthy of an education?

There are those that could not perform calculus .... those that can't solve a basic algebraic equation ... I have no problem accepting this. I do have a problem writing people off as simply "dumb" .... all (with the exception of the severely disabled) are educable and should be encouraged and guided to reach their highest potential!

[Codeine]

89. I mean college-level stuff.

Everyone should be able to learn to read, do basic survival-level math, and develop critical thinking skills. It's just folly to expect them to a college degree, provided that we're not going to dumb such a degree down ever further so that it eventually loses all educational significance.

[etherealtruth]

95. I think my post clearly stated that not everyone could or should be university bound

I have a problem with attributing lower intelligence levels to trades and crafts people. I also have a problem assigning more "worth" to those with degrees. On a very basic level those that pick up the trash are as important as those that design the sanitary landfill it is eventually deposited in.

[Codeine]

96. You'll get no argument from me.

I work RETAIL! :evilgrin:

[etherealtruth]

99. Oh God ... I'm sorry

;-)

[uncommon]

143. Amen - I had a terrible childhood and family life and excelled in school.

[EFerrari]

57. Yes, when you start with a conclusion and work backwards

to an argument, what you're starting out with is a scapegoat whether you're talking about parents or teachers or your ass.

And I got very good grades despite coming from a home with a single alcoholic parent. My teachers did just fine, thanks.

[seabeyond]

62. is it an all or nothing? are you suggesting all kids that fail have bad parents? all kids that

fail have bad teachers? all bad parents have kids that fail? all connected aprents have kids that succeed?

no black and white. issues all over the place

[EFerrari]

66. No, lol, I'm suggesting nothing of the sort.

Did you even read my post? I'm not talking about parents, but about how people approach a problem.

[TBF]

15. I agree parent involvement/encouragement is a big part -

but as a stay-at-home mom I also know I have a great advantage over a mom who works 40+ hours, does housework when she gets home, and also tries to fit in homework with her kids. People are being stretched to the limit right now, and that's only if they are still employed ...

I pick up my daughter at 3:00, let her ride her bike for a bit to get some exercise, and then we sit down to do homework. At about 5:00 I go to pick up her little brother at daycare (he goes to preschool even though I'm home because I have some medical issues so I choose to budget & send him). We all relax together and eat dinner, talk about the day. I don't have to worry about doing laundry or other tasks because I did them earlier in the day. How many people even have a traditional lifestyle like that anymore? Many might like to take off some time when their kids are young (male or female) but how many can realistically do it?

I have a lot of empathy for both parents and teachers right now.

[seabeyond]

34. +1. nt

[yurbud]

16. divorce, single parenting, and both parents working have changed the ball game

when a lot of us were kids, if the school called home, we would be in serious trouble.

When I was a student teacher, I called the mother of one girl who was acting up in class, and she said it was probably my fault for not being entertaining enough--and she was a teacher herself.

When I worked as a sub, a lot of kids had no fear of authority. I sent one girl to the office, which was straight down the hall from the classroom, and the vice principal was standing outside the office, and while both he and I watched, the girl ducked out the exit in the middle of the hall.

A lot of parents know they aren't there enough for their kids, so they try to make up for it by being their buddies instead of their parent.

It makes teachers jobs a lot harder than in the past.

The ways to make up for it are smaller class sizes and more after school programs for latch key kids, and maybe make the latter mandatory for certain ages if they don't have a parent waiting for them at home.

[DevonRex]

18. We have no control over parents. And we can't give up on a child because his/her

parents don't give a shit. Children want to learn, no matter where they come from or what their situation is in life.

[seabeyond]

36. it isnt "give" up. no we have no control, it doesnt change the fact, without the parent

there is NOT a lot that can be done. schools have everything on line. they made things as accessable for a parent they can. school has tutoring before and after.

they have done everything they can do to get these students thru.

they are as helpless and we are to have control over the parent.

what do you suggest a school do to MAKE the kid learn?

[eilen]

46. Children may want to learn but not necessarily

the stuff in school. They want to learn how to reach the next level in their video game.

Come to think of it, that's one of the big problems, video games. They are like crack to kids. My 12 year old nephew for one, doesn't think he needs to learn anything else-- he says that the kids at school won't think you are cool if you get good grades. He is in a city school district in a Southern state. His brother failed every class but gym and they still promoted him to the next grade, setting him up to fail. Their grandmother is very involved but it is very hard for her to motivate them to do their work. It exhausts her. Their father falls asleep most days by 6:30-7 pm exhausted from work-- he barely graduated H.S. did a tradesman track and never went to college. He wants them to do well but can help little with his 16 year old's work and the 12 year old can picks up what he is doing very quickly, he is just lazy and doesn't want to "waste his time" on it. Their mother, who does not live in the state is a middle school drop out-- she never attended high school and she has little contact with them. The kids have more energy and staying power than their father and grandmother who due to fatigue and ill health, cannot be 100% all the time on message for school homework and study. Since there were no consequences for my older nephew when he failed all his courses freshman year, what will motivate him to do better? Districts have stupid policies. They withdraw instruction for an entire day if a kid's shirt isn't tucked in--the kid gets ISS. That is just stupid.

When I was a kid, we didn't have them but our schools sucked anyway. I had some good teachers but the seventies weren't known for their rigorous academics. I don't know that I would have passed had I gone today. One year in middle school Social Studies, all we did was color maps. The parents were not involved in school at all. If they weren't out finding themselves or another partner, they were working very hard and keeping a roof over our heads was their job, our job was to go to school and get a passing report card. My parents participation started and ended when I received my report card and either got punished for a C or praised for an A and occasionally was given a dollar for a good one (which we would then fly to the corner store to buy some Bubbleyum). I read all the time but was not good at math (a consequence of not seeing the board at Catholic school and then being put in the hall for the rest of the year because I didn't have my homework). After my Dad disappeared and my mom couldn't afford the school, I went to public school and they quickly supplied me with a tutor and a speech therapist (I guess we were getting AFDC since good old dad wasn't sending any child support-- come to find out later he remarried and went to Bermuda for his honeymoon while his kids wore high waters and were referred to the Big Sister/Big Brother program). Eventually I "got" the multiplication tables, long division and fractions.

I hardly ever did homework though. I really did forget. I was a daydreamer and once home from school -- school disappeared from my mind. Mom and Step dad were working 2 jobs each. She had 3 kids, He had 8 to support.

The public schools were much better at helping kids who needed support than the private ones even then.

So it is a combination today of what is causing children not to learn. One big problem in my area is just having children socialized, able to sit at a desk, pay attention and follow directions. For some reason that is a huge struggle. I bet that is why there are kids who go to bed at midnight, their parent can't control them at home either.

[Curmudgeoness]

81. I have always thought that we should have some control

over parents. Or more precisely, that parents should also have a responsibility in their children's education.

My opinion has been that one of the options a school should have is to require a parent to come to school for a day with their child if the child is causing too much trouble, or sleeping all though classes because they stay out all night, or disrupt classes. It is a punishment for the child, a punishment for the parents, a motivation to the student to try harder so it doesn't ever happen again, and eye opener for parents who think teaching is a piece of cake.

Or maybe all parents should be required to do volunteer work at the school at some point. This happens at many for-profit schools, and could well be a reason those students do better in their studies. Having parents helping at schools would also lower the costs for the district.

I know, I know, this is not possible because........whatever hundreds of excuses.

[stray cat]

19. Maybe we should pay the parents instead?

good parents can get the extra merit pay and we can take the kids away from bad parents and put them in charter boarding schools....

WE should also encourage homeschooling for kids - cuts down on a waste of tax payer money for parents and kids who are hopeless....

[Bitwit1234]

20. One thing every one seems to miss also is the disruptions

in the class rooms. The students have no respect and have behavior problems. I know a kid who got kicked out and I asked her why. She said every body else yelled and threw stuff she was just caught. She said they all do it and those that want to learn are called sissies. Don't know if it happens all over the place but I bet that has a lot to do with kids not being able to learn. The gang effect.

[sandnsea]

42. No it does not happen all over the place

And it doesn't need to happen anyplace. If you can't control your classroom, get some help or quit teaching. I have never seen a classroom, in any grade, in any town, where kids threw stuff and were wild. My kids got detention for not bringing a red pen or forgetting a book, in schools that weren't very effective by the way. Throwing stuff across the room?? Sure it may have happened on occasion, but not regularly and not all over the country. Some of these kids might need to hook up online with some classrooms that don't act like that so they know just how ridiculous they look.

[eilen]

47. It doesn't happen in the suburbs. nt

[sandnsea]

48. I live in rural America

So that's two places it doesn't happen. It doesn't happen at places like Harlem Children's Zone Promise Academy Charters. I imagine there's lots of city schools where it doesn't happen.

[Pisces]

23. This issue has been raised that is why the SEED charter is set up like a boarding school

Mon - Fri. So that the kids can get the academic support necessary for success. I think everyone can agree that parental involvement is the number 1 factor between successful schools and failing
schools.

[woo me with science]

24. There are always going to be variables beyond your control.

Sometimes they are big-ass huge variables, like parenting.

I guess I am curious what your thinking/point is in raising this. Are you suggesting that the schools need to find ways to help/force/cajole/compel parents to become more involved and accountable? If so, how would you propose doing that, specifically, and where is the line at which such efforts become intrusion into private family decisions?

Or are you arguing that time spent discussing teacher evaluations and school reform is wasted, because the parenting problem is so significant? Because in some cases I have heard that argument used as a cop out to discount the possibility of any meaningful reform at all. There will always be variables that you cannot fully control, and some of those will be major variables. Part of being effective is recognizing what you can control versus what you can't, and focusing your energies on what you can.

[LWolf]

29. I'm not the OP, but I'll bite.

I'd love parents to be more involved and more accountable. I don't think schools are responsible for societal failures. I think schools are scapegoats for societal failures, and I think the scapegoating is deliberate.

I'd like to see the nations focus on eliminating poverty. Poverty is a bigger factor in student achievement than school or teacher. It's also a factor in family dysfunction and parental non-involvement.

Time spent discussing teacher evaluations is fine, as long as those evaluations don't include the use of things that teachers do not control, like test scores. Tests are an evaluation of test-takers. School reform is needed, and should be part of the conversation. Corrupt "reforms" that harm the system rather than helping it, though, should not be on the table.

The discussion about teacher evaluations should include a list of characteristics of good teachers which include professional competencies and people skills. Education is not a business nor a factory, students aren't standardized materials, and each student's achievements are based, in a significant part, on what the student brought to the learning process. We won't be standardizing children any time soon, and there won't come a time when teachers get to sort through the materials and reject those likely to produce less than others.

Reforms that try to ignore this reality, that are based on standardized test scores, privatization, and union-busting, aren't going to "fix" anything.

And, at this point, that's about all that IS on the table.

Your last sentence: "Part of being effective is recognizing what you can control versus what you can't, and focusing your energies on what you can."

That has been repeated so often in regards to public education over the last decade that my automatic response is to :puke:.

Why? Because it's always followed by a threat; we will be measured by focusing on data that is affected by factors outside of our control, and if that data don't shine, our institutions and careers are threatened.

Too often, the things we CAN control aren't those things that are being measured to determine our "effectiveness."

[YvonneCa]

75. Beautiful post. n/t

[lumberjack_jeff]

25. Seriously? You come around here much?

If you don't agree that many kids are simply ineducable because their parents suck, you won't find a lot of support here.

One of my favorite movies is "Stand and Deliver".

[mopinko]

40. "bad parents" don't need accountability measures. they need

support. i think pretty much every parent does the best they can. after all, it is the prime imperative of the species to support our little dna carriers until they can pass on the packet. most of the parents who aren't cutting it are usually doing their best. even if they are crackheads, they are still doing what little they can. it's just that that 'can' is very small.
and so many parents, as so many have said above, just don't have anything to give. even beyond substance problems, working 3 jobs, and all that, sadly, parents are human. marriages fail. people suffer illnesses, physical and mental. on and on.
accountability, punitive measures do nothing but make things worse, they drive a wedge between the parent and child.

the best schools are the ones that give those kids heart.

[proud2BlibKansan]

43. I am in favor of driving a wedge between a parent and a child

when the parent beats the crap out of the child, or fails to get medical care for a sick child, consistently fails to send them to school, put food on the table, pay utility bills or fails to take parental responsibilities seriously. Those children deserve better. Bring on the wedge.

[Codeine]

91. A brave statement.

And one with which I thoroughly agree.

[mopinko]

98. those children belong in the family courts.

those parents should be the recipient a pair of handcuffs. and they routinely are.
i don't think that is what we were talking about exactly.

[Ex Lurker]

61. a lot of them don't need support, they need a kick in the pants.,,

it's not that they'd do better if they knew how. It's that they know exactly what they're doing and don't see anything wrong with it.

[Codeine]

92. And you'll never convince the useless assholes that they're wrong. nt

[YvonneCa]

76. I agree parents need support, but do you realize that what little they do get is often...

...from teachers? Yet we (some of us) continue to demonize teachers.

[silverlib]

41. And I'll add a problem that most seem to totally ignore - drugs...

I'm including alcohol. I'm a firm believer in legalization, but not for the young and our schools are full of them.

[Codeine]

83. Too true. I watched a lot of my classmates become really shitty students

when they discovered speed.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Duer 157099]

49. And how do you explain my situation, I value nothing higher than education

and yet have a teenage son who detests school and all that goes with it?

Also, I came from a family that didn't really seem to value education and yet somehow it became #1 priority in my life.

Explain, please, since you seem to have all the answers.

[seabeyond]

52. without snark... is it the teachers fault? now what?

another thing i do not believe is all kids are college material. he doesnt like school. i can see that. he doesnt like it, he isnt going to do it. so what? what does he want to do. get him thru school, get him to take the GED and get him into a vocation training program that he does want to do.

there are options, but ultimately at a certain age i dont believe parent or school has any control... it is all on the child and the decisions he makes

again, may not be popular, i believe it though

[Duer 157099]

58. How could it be "the teachers fault"?

He's had dozens of teachers throughout his life, I can't imagine that they ALL were so bad that they soured him on education. No, it was not the teachers' fault.

He is who he is, and has never liked school, no matter what. He's gone to some of the best public schools in the state, too. It's NOT that. And it's not because I don't care.

Some things just are.

[seabeyond]

67. i agree with you. nt

[YvonneCa]

77. Maybe it has to do with the fact...

...that he is growing up in a time when education and educators are disrespected and often ridiculed in the media and elsewhere?

[Duer 157099]

78. Maybe. But after observing him for 16 years, I have come to believe

that it is just his nature. I have to accept it and love him for who he is, period.

[YvonneCa]

79. I have a grandson like that...

...and he has many relatives in education. :7 We just love him through it. ;)

[seabeyond]

86. yes. and an environment both my sons fight against, were stupid is cool

especially for boys. they had a time they had to get beyond that and say screw it, then i wont be cool

[Codeine]

82. People don't like to accept that some folks are just downright unteachable.

We acknowledge the teacher's role, and the parent's role, but we avoid the question of the student and their responsibility to learn the material. Some do not and will not ever care, and others are simply intellectually incapable of doing it. The human experience is not as rosy as we would wish.

[cilla4progress]

50. I just think all these ideas - while accurate -

are nibbling around the edges. The true cause of our undereducated, underachieving youth is

OUR CULTURE JUST DOES NOT VALUE ITS CHILDREN ENOUGH.

From global warming, to nuclear proliferation, to defunding youth services - e.g., education, to our dysfunctional politics...kids aren't stupid! They get the message, and our funding and focus proves the point: we aren't grownups to our children, we (overall, as a society) don't value them as much as we should, and as much as we do material wealth... Hell, 1 out of 5 American children grow up in poverty in the US - among the richest countries in the world.

[seabeyond]

56. OUR CULTURE JUST DOES NOT VALUE ITS CHILDREN ENOUGH.

agreed.

[bik0]

103. When I see a drug abusing mother who couldn't care less about her child's education...

I don't blame "culture"... I blame the mother. It's not "culture's" responsibility, it's the parent's responsibility.

Generalizations are a disconnect from reality.

[seabeyond]

104. i will go with that too.

but then you wont find me on this thread excusing parents either

[cilla4progress]

117. Completely separate issues.

Truly, how many "drug abusing mothers who couldn't care less..." do you really think there are? Enough to form a basis for policy or overall perspective? I think THIS is a generalization. And what about looking at possible reasons why: hopelessness, disassociation from society's goodies - the American dream. Cyclical, institutional poverty and related problems are not caused by the "victims" thereof, but of a culture or society that leans toward the monied classes and elitisim - that lets GWB into Yale and on to become Pres of the US for 2 terms!

My view, anyway...

[seabeyond]

118. a lot. and looking at the reason is a good thing. if we can help society as a whole

then the school environment and success rate will improve. youa re right on

now

how is that the schools fault?

[cilla4progress]

130. I don't believe there are "a lot"

of drug-addled moms...what I DO believe is there is not a lot of institutional (cultural, societal) support for families or single parents. For example, free, quality child care and a social safety net in full, a la western European, Scandinavian countries. Therefore, in many homes, parents are NOT present to oversee kids after school, enforce homework requirements, etc. So I agree, there are issues at home that interplay with underperformance at school, but I still don't "blame" these parents...I think extreme capitalism as we have in the US doesn't create an environment where these non-material values can flourish, or are prioritized.

I've just never believed or accepted that it is those on the lower rungs (in terms of power and money - the values that "matter" in the US) who are responsible for our problems. It is up to our leaders to lead, by example and cogent policy.

[seabeyond]

134. there are a lot. but then i am not claiming that is the only issue.

i agree with your furthering discussion of the issue, too. a single parent, two working home family, the entitled child....

[cilla4progress]

141. Whew - I think we have found our common ground, then!

Clearly, home environment has a huge impact on student outcomes. It's just that, I don't think our families get the support they could (as evidenced by other western Democracies) from our government, economic system, or society in general, for optimal outcomes. I mean, why would (again, in general) kids from wealthier families do better in school, right? Definite correlation between income level and student outcomes; proven over and over again. It's just a question of what is at the base of that...

Thank you for an enjoyable and productive discussion! Have a great week!

[bik0]

160. Not a generalization... I said when I see "a mother" (singular)...

How may are there? A lot. In my wife's kindergarten class 14 out of 18 students were from single parent families. A lot of her students are abandoned by the mother and are being raised by the grandmother. How many care enough to show up for parent/teacher night? Maybe 2 or 3.

When a child is born these "victims" have responsibility. Poverty did not force them to have a baby. Poverty did not force them to abuse drugs. Poverty did not force them to abandon their children and not take an interest in their education.

[Taitertots]

60. Bad parents don't want to hear it/won't listen

They don't realize that the single most important thing in their children's education is them. The expectation that school will provide all the education children need is rampant.

[Codeine]

64. How about the REAL third rail;

Some kids are just shitty little unteachable, ill-mannered, horrible wastes of oxygen. In every generation there are some people that just completely and utterly suck ass.

[seabeyond]

70. +1. ok, not a chance i would use your adjectives, but.....

i agree with the essence.

[Codeine]

71. I really do have a potty mouth.

:blush:

[Hello_Kitty]

108. Andrew Breitbart to a tee. eom

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

65. this is why every teacher I know has quit the public system

Just couldn't deal with the white trash and ghetto bullshit, private schools come with their own frustrations but you aren't likely to be threatened and called a "fucking bitch" for phoning a parent at work.

[Taitertots]

68. It would take a very short amount of time for that to cause me to....

Quit or do something that would certainly cause them to fire me.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

112. Most of them held out for years,

but it all boiled down to the same issue, they were teachers and not social workers or parole officers. And they were being setup to fail since they were neither equipped or particularly well supported in such a role. They can't fix the social problems of red and urban america and that completely detracts from their role as teachers.

For one the last straw was attendance at a mandatory seminar put on by the sheriffs department on how to recognize kids who might be living in a meth lab.

They can't fix everything and they certainly can't fix that.

[Codeine]

69. Parents eager to excuse any behavior and defend the most horrible

behavior by their little assholes blow me away. When I got in trouble in school I got in even bigger trouble at home. Now when a kid gets in trouble their parents attack the teachers and tell the kid that the school has no authority and they can behave in whatever fashion they'd like.

[seabeyond]

73. i watch it. both brothers with their kids. and then they blame the teacher.

like the child doesn't learn something with that.

all those kids say.... teacher lost my homework. brothers get pissed at teacher and believe their kids. my mouth drop open. i glare at the kids. i say.... LIE. lol. not a single time has my kids homework got lost by the teacher. they KNOW not to try that one. yet these kids, time and time and time again.... the teacher loses it.

pisses me off so.

both brothers rail at the school for their cumulative four kids. tell me they have to listen to both sides.

not me.... i back the teacher. kids have to figure out how to be successful....

[Hello_Kitty]

101. And those kids grow up to be helpless and exploitive young adults.

I swear, I know several people with young adult kids living at home who are TOTAL parasites.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

111. The cursing parent wasn't looking to excuse the students behavior

He was outraged that the teacher had dared phone and let lose a stream of threats and profanity. He then called the principal who rather than backing up the teacher apologized and promised the school would never call him again unless it was a life or death emergency. The student was flunking everything, seemed worthy of parental involvement.

[Confusious]

100. WHAT?!? ARE YOU INSANE?

Don't SAY that! You'll never get elected or make money off the backs of children!

It's all the teachers fault. The republicans can destroy the union and the democrats will help.

:sarcasm: except that last part about the republicans and democrats.

[bik0]

109. The students in my wife's kindergarten class or mostly from single unwed mothers...

The quality of parenting can make or break a child’s education. It is extremely difficult for even the most qualified, competent and experienced teacher to overcome a negligent home environment, behavioral disorders and/or learning disabilities.

My wife is a kindergarten teacher at an inner city public school - she's been teaching there for over 20 years. The teacher is an extension of the parent/authority figure in a child's life. If the parent doesn't establish positive expectations and continuously monitor the progress of the child from grade to grade, then the chance of success in learning is extremely difficult.

Most of my wife's students come from one parent families (14 out of 18 last year), usually female, and a lot of those are grandmothers. These are children born out of wedlock to teen age women (some as young as 12) with no parenting skills. The father abandons them in most cases and the kid is passed off to the grandmother many times. A typical parent/teacher night or open house attracts maybe 2 or 3 parents in her class.

The ability to learn is severely impaired by the stress on a child from one or a combination of things... when the parent is single, unemployed, on drugs, alcoholic or abusive. A teacher is almost powerless to overcome these obstacles. My wife has seen a direct correlation with parental apathy, abuse etc. vs. learning ability, comprehension and staying on task.

Kids with learning disabilities are usually from abusive families and also suffer from personality disorders as well. These are angry children where learning is way down the list of priorities. They're angry about being abandoned and not cared for by a mother who's more concerned about getting high then how they do in school.

By the time these kids get into high school with 3nd grade reading skills and realize what opportunity was squandered - it's too late. They become unemployable following the path of their role model parents by dropping out of school, abusing drugs, having babies out of wedlock - and it becomes a vicious circle. No amount of money, vouchers, de-unionization will fix this problem.

If I could point to one sector of society where change could make the most difference within our education system it would be to focus on young, unwed single mothers. The money that is wasted trying to raise the standards of teachers and increase the performance of those students who are abused, unwilling or unable to learn would be better spent on drug counseling, sex education, parenting skills and life coaching for teenage single mothers.

[uncommon]

131. While teenagers having children is not desirable, I would not be so quick to

deride "single, unwed mothers" as the problem. Single women have been raising children successfully for eons and will continue to do so.

This is an issue of individuals not doing all they can to help their children succeed - it has little to do with the institution of marriage (which can be very detrimental to a woman).

[bik0]

161. You left out "young"... that's a big piece of the problem...

Girls in my wife's school district start having babies at the age of 12. There is no way a 12 year old can have any sense of parenting skills...


"Even when they have the same academic abilities, children in single-parent families are three times more likely to drop out of high school than children from two-parent families <13; 15>. Because they are the primary and frequently sole source of financial support for the family, single parents have less time to help children with homework, are less likely to use consistent discipline, and have less parental control, and all of these conditions may lead to lower academic achievement <1; 9; 13>. Among children in single-parent families, those from mother-absent households earn lower science grades than children from father-absent homes. No matter which parent is missing, children from single-parent families generally find it more difficult to connect with school <9>. "

http://library.adoption.com/articles/single-parenting-and-childrens-academic-achievement.html

[Lydia Leftcoast]

113. One of my mother's cousins began teaching high school in the 1950s and

retired in the 1990s.

He said that the biggest difference was the attitude of the parents.

If a student behaved badly in the 1950s, all he had to do was call up the parents, who would apologize and say, "It won't happen again." And it usually didn't.

By the time the 1990s rolled around, a call to the parents would yield responses like, "Your classes probably aren't interesting enough," or "You have to realize that my child is very sensitive to criticism" or "All you teachers keep picking on my child!"

He was delighted to reach retirement age.

[lumberjack_jeff]

119. Boys are 33% less likely to go to college than girls. Are parents only failing sons?

If we start from the assumption that parents value their sons as much as their daughters, then the reason is schools.

One of three things explains the difference;
a) boys are less intellectually capable. This is patently sexist.
b) changes in the family structure harm boys
c) school is tailored primarily to girls needs

In my experience, both b) and c) are real, but especially c).

[seabeyond]

120. we have talked about it before. there are things our boys need today

we need to address

[lumberjack_jeff]

121. Boys embrace dumb as cool because they have to...

...they're ignorant.

We're confusing cause and effect here. No one decided dumb was cool until someone looked around and realized all their friends were as ignorant as they are.

They didn't start out that way, and it wasn't always the case.

Any discussion of the issues which start from the basis that education is blameless won't yield solutions.

[uncommon]

132. You think girls don't?

Historically, "dumb" has been a very valuable asset in a woman, and girls know this.

[lumberjack_jeff]

135. There's dumb and then there's faux dumb.

The fact that women are graduating from college makes it both more difficult and more important to maintain the facade, because the boys are increasingly ignorant, and one out of every three educated women will have to settle for an uneducated guy.

[seabeyond]

138. yes, most of the girls that i see play dumb, also do their studies and dont get behind to where

it is too late.

they may continue to play dumb, but they arent.

where as the boys are stopping the learning. they think they will be able to provide thru some other means. back in the day a male adult could provide for family without an education. women have never been able to provide without an education. today, .... those jobs arent so much there for men.

[seabeyond]

137. and then the young girls. my niece and her friend, well shit... both nieces

another young gal...

i tell them, i dont do dumb, dont think it is cute....

go away. lol

i cannot stand the..... oh, i am soooo stupid, look at me.

geeesh

[seabeyond]

136. my son saw it in middle school. dumb became cool, not learning was hip. it pissed him off

7th grade he went into a rant about he was outside the crowd cause so many things they were doing to be cool was unacceptable and would not be allowed or tolerated in this house. man, i still remember that rant of his... more than three years ago. he was in such pain, because of the conficting messages from firends in school and to be a part of it, and what he knew was the norm in the house

a good child, thinking thru child, never a problem child, having melt downs over it.

he had his choice on path that year. i see it with every 7th grade male. dont hang with the girls so much, so dont know. seeing it with youngest son this year, and we are addressing it immediately, patiently and strong line of acceptable. talking our way thru.

[w8liftinglady]

125. my boyfriend is a middle-aged ex-military who teaches behavior problems

i could be wayyyyy off,but many of the kids he teaches...and yes,75% are boys...come from single parent households with little male influence.He offers a strict kindness and lots of positive reinforcement for very minor accomplishments...basically teaches the boys how to respect themselves and others.the influence of a positive male in their lives can't be understated....just like a positive female influence.this has nothing to do with sexual orientation.It has to do with self-respect.

[lumberjack_jeff]

129. Yes, self respect and someone to identify with. +1 n/t

[seabeyond]

139. yes yes yes yes YES YES YES..

agree

[uncommon]

122. Amen to that. However,

some parents will never care or get involved or are unable to. There needs to be a way to make sure those kids don't fall through the proverbial cracks.

[lumberjack_jeff]

123. +1 n/t

[seabeyond]

140. but... regardless of what the schools try, and they are aware of this, they fail

because a child NEEDS that foundation in the family structure and from parents.

the school will never accomplish what you suggest.

[uncommon]

144. Not true - I was an excellent student - top percentiles across the board - and my parents

were abusive drug addicts.

ANY child can succeed. It's just harder when the backup isn't there.

[seabeyond]

146. few children do, and rah for them. i mean that sincerely. but that is not the odds.

for whatever reason, there will always be those that will be able to triumph against the odds. but it is against the odds.

head start is one of the better programs that address this. social networks are so need for these children. but all these have been cut adn ALL the responsibility is on the teacher.

we need mentors.
our boys need responsible men

to fill the void.

some will make it. some always make it. but too few.

and teachers cannot fill that void. they have a large number of students, even in smaller classrooms.

[uncommon]

147. There have been numerous studies showing that preschool/head start gains do not

have long term effects on students - that the gains they make are quickly diminished every year until they are on par with the students who did not take part in these programs.

Don't get me wrong - I'm all for early childhood education, but I really think that family support and cultivating an atmosphere of learning at home is more valuable.

[seabeyond]

148. sigh... sure. that is the issue that so many are talking.

yet you are the one to say without, you succeed.

you betcha i am for "family support and cultivating an atmosphere of learning at home is more valuable"

but seeing that it lacks.... programs will haev to do

people are suggesting a teacher will have to do. not doing.

[uncommon]

150. That was incoherent.

All I was saying is that students can achieve even when family support is lacking - if the school does everything it can.

[seabeyond]

151. yes you said that. the odds are against them. some can achieve. many cannot

then you went on to say family support when i mentioned programs....

[seabeyond]

152. btw.... i am really glad to hear

that regardless of your shitty upbringing, you were able to make it. and pull yourself out of that lifestyle. i am watching two nieces struggle. but they are trying

and two nephews that have given up and embraced, only to live what their parents did.

[uncommon]

154. It's not easy -

I understand that. My comment on programs was specifically about head start and preschool programs - over the long term, effective programs for ALL students are obviously incredibly important. Parenting is important, but it can be overcome if enough other adults care about a child.

[izzybeans]

126. I think if we were honest about how to manage both bad parents and bad teachers

then we can actually talk about issues that are important to us all.

Bad parents and bad teachers exist, something has to change and it can't be on the backs of the good ones (parents and teachers).

As a parent in Chicago Public Schools, I see bad parents everyday. I also have the misfortune of having a child whose teacher is dialing it in, can't communicate with parents, shows up late to school, never responds to our offers to volunteer, etc. The school let go of two vibrant performing arts teachers and a couple of other teachers this summer. We nearly transferred when we found out she was our son's teacher, but we had just moved in to the neighborhood so that we could get our youngest son into this wonderful performing arts school (our oldest got in through lottery). I don't dare say why this teacher was kept on staff on this board.

The frustrations are endless for good teachers and good parents.

[flamingdem]

128. Parenting. Exactly the problem in Los Angeles

according to a teacher I know. The root is socio-economic-cultural. Many immigrant parents do not have an education themselves so they don't properly support the student at home.

[Skidmore]

153. We have a national culture that does not respect knowledge or its acquisition.

Let's start there.

This attitude is perpetuated by an entertainment media trying to suck young people in to consuming media and its technology. Our young men are taught that toughness and bullyboy oneupmanship and conniving are desirable traits. Our young women are taught early that wiggle, giggle, and jiggle are more important than developing the mind. You hear about people killing each other over football games and spots on the cheerleading squad or in a beauty pageant.

From my own experience as a child and a parent, I can tell you that I grew up as one of the great unwashed masses in poverty and with much deprivation. The one thing my mother instilled in us was that it was important to learn and she READ to us every damned evening, no matter how tired she was. When we were able to read on our own, she made certain we had library cards and we were expected to use them. I used to pack home 8-10 books at a time, walking the mile to the library and back. Sometimes those books were big and heavy but I loved the escape into them they afforded me and the exposure to other peoples and ideas. My mama did well. Of the eight of us, six worked their way through college. We didn't have trust funds or savings bonds because there was no money left for that. We worked for it because we understood it was our ticket out of poverty.

I was lucky also to have a couple of different teachers who saw potential in a shy, skinny little girl in handmedowns and who gave me extra work because they knew how much it meant to me and my self-esteem. My 5th grade social studies teacher brought me books about history to read. My 7th grade literature teacher taught me the rudiments of critiquing what I read and did not hold me back to just doing oral book reports. She let me do the work. My high school history teacher taught me how to write a college level term paper--my first 20+ page effort, one of my proudest accomplishments because it taught me that I could expand beyond the basic requirements. My high school journalism teacher made me editor of the school paper and picked me up at home to take me to the county newpaper office to run the linotype headliner. She taught me that a child of poverty could achieve beyond the societal expectations. I am forever indebted to these people.

As a mother who single parented for almost a decade of my adult life, I can tell you that I set the same expectations for my children--that they read and have access to books of all stripes at all turns. The one thing that didn't work as well for me as a mother as it did for me as a child was that I needed to work and finish my own education, both fulltime jobs. I couldn't support my children and try to boost my earning potential AND give contact time with school as much time as I desired. I did my best, reinforcing what I could at home. I actually missed a couple of parent teacher conferences because they plain old just got lost in the hectic activity of work and education and remembered when it was too late. I was running on empty a lot. The kids and I got through those years though. Many were the night when all three of us were sitting around the table doing our homework together. Somehow we managed to put together a couple of fine adults, both of them college graduates. My daughter has four children who are also being taught the importance of education. They are afforded every opportunity to access knowledge. Gifts in that household are invariably books. I love going to her house because it is like a library. Tall shelves line the walls of the dining and living area and each are filled with books. The children each have large book shelves full of books in their rooms. O is reading chapter books now and E is just starting to. G just read her first book on her own this last week (she's 5) and little L read pictures with great verve. If one of them wants to read, we put aside what we are doing for a few minutes and make time to cultivate their minds....and the television is turned off except for 1 hour per day. When I last visited, I went to help the girls tidy their room and discovered that E was having trouble making her bed because she had a library stuffed under the covers with a flashlight for night reading. The other difference I see in the way they are raising these kids is that the little girls are dressed like little girls and not little modelwannabees and the boys are dressed appropriately too. They are taught respect for one another and that problems are not resolved by using your fists or name calling. They are taught to share too. Now this is not to say that they don't squabble or pitch a fit now and then, but these children are very often more involved in actively learning about the world around them than anything else.

Yes, parents are part of the equation. I'm a firm believer in setting an expectation to learn for the child. That the teaching of the importance of acquiring knowledge is just as critical as learning itself. It is harder to do when a family suffers deprivation and is focused on meeting basic survival needs.

[nadinbrzezinski]

155. I wish I could recommend your post

You hit it out of the ballpark.

The anti intellectual tradition in the US goes back to the 17th century. And chiefly that is what has to change... at the most basic of core issues.

[flvegan]

156. My cat's breath smells like cat food.

[lumberjack_jeff]

162. That's where I saw the Leprchaun. He tells me to burn things! n/t

[defendandprotect]

157. And we have "bad parenting" because .... ????? I'm sure parents want to harm their children--!!!

We have parents and communities which are disadvantaged -- impoverished --

usually because of government support for elism/corproatism!!

Change that behavior of government and we would have parents and communites

better equipped to enrich the lives of their children!!

What a nonsense post -- !!

[alarimer]

163. No, not bad parenting. Economic inequality.

The single biggest factor in determining performance in school by kids is their parents' socio-economic status.

The school privatization movement is designed to strip already poor districts of money and to create a two-tiered system, which benefits the rich and middle class at the expense of the poor. Same as it ever was, I guess but disgusting none the less.