Obama calls for longer school year and removal of worst-performing teachers

[sonomak]

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/39378576/ns/today-parenting/

Obama: Longer school year could ‘make a difference’
He also says money alone won’t fix education system

WASHINGTON — President Barack Obama on Monday called for a longer school year for students and the removal of the worst-performing teachers as he sought to give a prominent boost to his education agenda.

Asked by TODAY's Matt Lauer if he supported a year-round school year, Obama said: "The idea of a longer school year, I think, makes sense." He added it could "make a difference" in student performance.

He did not specify how long that school year should be and said that U.S. students attend classes, on average, about a month less than children in most other advance countries.

He said more resources must be matched with reforms, including the removal of teachers who, once identified as underperforming and given the chance and the training to improve, are still not serving students well.....

[speppin]

1. The witch hunt has been going on for a while now and will continue. That

is the message.

[WinkyDink]

30. The beatings will continue until morale improves.

[izquierdista]

2. How about politician removal?

Ones that promise "change" and then underperform?

[Tansy_Gold]

3. +10,000 at least n/t

[Vincardog]

22. Why don't we pass a law that says unless the Average Standard of living goes UP 10% the Senators

for that state can not run for reelection?

[izquierdista]

38. You're on to something....

In every other line of work, someone is always evaluating and can say "you've fucked up for the last time, you're out of here". Except politics. There's Repubs in Congress who came in with Reagan, and even though they fuck up and fuck up, they keep coming back like a greasy chiliburger.

[SammyWinstonJack]

45. +1000

:thumbsup:

[Dr.Phool]

69. + A shitload!

That's more than a google.

[Nevernose]

4. Does he mean those countries that only take the top 25% or so at the high school level?

Apples and oranges, Mr. President.

[Tansy_Gold]

5. How would "underperforming" teachers be identified?

And the answer "by the scores of their students on standardized tests" is NOT a correct answer.

Unless and until Mr. Obama and his henchperson Mr. Duncan come up with a suitable answer to that question, I call bullshit.


TG, NTY

[zipplewrath]

10. Exactly

A big part of this problem is that the people in charge, don't really have a clue. As such, the unions work hard to prevent them from having the capricious power to fire teachers without demonstrable cause. I've know "bad teachers". Predominately what was bad about them was that they had long ago given up fighting the system and spent most of their time sucking up to the principal.

[sarge43]

12. +1

How do all the other factors which could account for "underperformance" be eliminated, Mr President?

As noted above, can you say witch hunt? Bullshit works too.

I have to say I'm disappointed.

[Dappleganger]

58. As always..

Tansy is spot on!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

88. By a number of factors, including standardized tests.

But also by evaluations from supervisors.

:shrug:

[JuniperLea]

109. I've always thought teachers should be given the same tests as students...

My worst teachers were those with whom I had arguments... with my finger pointing to the answer in a text book and the teacher trying to say the answer was something completely different. It was so bad that four weeks into my senior year I went to the VP's office and made a big stink... told them either they put me into continuation school (for students with a wide range of issues) or I was splitting that taco stand forever.

They put me in continuation, I finished the remaining senior classwork in three months, got my GED, and started college ahead of my graduating class.

[LWolf]

6. He doesn't know how to identify the "worst performing teachers." nt

[WinkyDink]

31. Obama believes in sound-bytes.

[LWolf]

98. Yes.

He's a master at triggering emotion and "inspiring" people to look away from the specifics.

[Ian David]

7. OMG! Death Panels for teachers!

[zanana1]

8. Nobody will be going into teaching.

It's a tough, thankless job that many already don't want to do. The pay is so low, most teachers have to find second jobs. Everybody blames the teachers, especially the parents; parents have no idea what their kids are like at school. Teachers need more support, not less.

[WinkyDink]

33. The pay is not so low anymore. Where I worked, a very small district, I made no more than

$62K after 30 years, in 2002. Now I'd be making over $90K.

Just so ya know.

[Goblinmonger]

72. Then you were in a gold mine.

My very small district tops out at about 62K. Can't make anymore than that with a masters + 24 credits and 25 years experience. Now I know that's a good salary, but teachers aren't rolling in it.

[Dappleganger]

78. You'll never see that in the South.

Not even close.

[Kalyke]

83. Uh, yeah you would.

Average elementary teacher salary in Knoxville, TN is $37,000 - to $57,000. When you compare the cost of living between Tennessee and Pennsylvania, then the average, $47,000, is very close to the $62,000 the poster said he/she made.

[Dappleganger]

86. That is one state, which is just barely southern.

I am speaking overall of Georgia, North and South Carolina, Virginia, Alabama, Florida, Mississippi, Louisiana, West Virginia and Kentucky. None of that is adjusted for housing or cost of living.

Southern states pay crap with awful benefits because the states are not committed to fully funding any mandates, as well as most of those states have weak teachers' unions which are choked by the states on a regular basis, leaving teachers with very little bargaining power.

[DatManFromNawlins]

96. Starting salary in my parish is $45K, and that's for a BS in Education

You have no idea what you're talking about, but I'm sure you're just fine about that.

[w4rma]

97. That's hardly anything. (nt)

[Kalyke]

106. Barely Southern?

[PVnRT]

103. Knoxville is a fairly wealthy town, too

Oak Ridge, University of Tennessee...there is more of a tax base to support higher salaries.

Beyond that, though, one spot does not disprove the argument.

[rug]

9. It will be good practice for the new corporate workplace.

[uncommon]

11. I agree with a longer school year. Vacation time could be more frequent without a huge break in the

summer. And frankly teachers should be working year round, not getting a 3 month paid vacation.

[Goblinmonger]

14. Hey, you forgot the sarcasm thingy.

How exactly do I get a three-month paid vacation? 1. I do work year round. The good ones do. I spend my summer making the changes I feel I need to make to my class to address researched best practices as well as the changes I know need to be made not to mention the classes I take and tech training I do (due to my "not working" over the summer, I am 2 tests away from being a Google certified trainer for Apps for Ed and just have to find the time to take the test amid all the grading and prep I have to do). 2. My salary is based on the amount of time that I work. And, for your information, with a Master's degree in Communication, I am getting paid significantly less than I could be making as a consultant with the same degree.

[uncommon]

17. You spend 40 hours a week in the summer working?

No teacher I know does this. Maybe that means they are the "bad" ones. Most of them either don't work or work other jobs and still collect their salary.

[Goblinmonger]

46. I don't get paid to work 40 hours a week in the summer.

I get paid to work 0 hours in the summer. How many hours do you spend working on your job for free? Because every hour I work is just that.

Their salary is no being paid for their time during the summer it is just spread out over twelve months. I have taught at schools where they didn't spread it out over twelve months. It's just a bookkeeping thing and usually done so that the income is consistent every month and not as an indication that they are getting paid for nothing..

[Dappleganger]

48. Don't you just love how lies are spread around?

It really makes me sick. I thought that DU folks could at least do a little better but it seems even the most basic things are too hard. My mother was a teacher for many years and I know she never, ever, ever had a paid summer vacation. She did choose to get her checks evenly divided across 12 months as it was easier for our budget that way.

[Goblinmonger]

59. Even progressives fall for the talking points of the evil empire.

One would think that simple contracts would not be so hard to comprehend.

[Dappleganger]

62. It's easier to just spew whatever they hear on tv

I guess. And most teachers I know DID have additional jobs during the summer to make ends meet, especially those that were the head of their household. They would have LOVED to have had a "paid vacation".

[Dr.Phool]

73. They were even spewing it on The Weather Channel this morning.

[Dappleganger]

77. Really?

Is anything sacred anymore?? :(

[Dappleganger]

47. Getting paid during summer break.

If you think that teachers are paid for time off you're dreaming. Teachers choose to either get their paychecks divided up evenly across all 12 months or only the months they are working, but they are certainly not PAID for summer vacation.

[KittyWampus]

54. Sorry, the point is that teachers do get 3 months vacation. But you are correct

It's inappropriate to call it "paid" vacation.

Both my parents retired from teaching. Both got 3 month vacations.

They wouldn't have liked working through the summers though.

[Dappleganger]

60. No they do not.

But your parents are damn luck that they did.

[KittyWampus]

61. All the teachers I know now get 3 months off.

[Dappleganger]

64. They they are not the norm.

Because it isn't that way in most states. Ask them how they like their PAID vacation!

[uncommon]

105. A salary of $40K that gets paid out over 12 months wherein the payee does not actually go to

work for the summer sounds like a paid vacation to me.

[Dappleganger]

70. Just checking our school calendar this summer...

it looks as if our teachers got 9 weeks off, not counting staying to shut down the classroom or any enrichment they are always required to before school begins. I'm just talking about being at the physical school itself.

NINE weeks.

[kwassa]

82. We get 9 weeks off.

Teachers get 9, the students get 10.

I don't know any school that gets 3 months off.

[Goblinmonger]

68. Couple problems.

1. Vacation, even if technically the correct word which I don't believe it is, carries with it the connotation that it is paid. That is not the case here. Our contract is for a certain number of days. Technically, we are out of work for the other days. Or on a shut down, or whatever the manufacturing industry calls it when they don't have their employees come in and don't pay them but don't want them to be able to get unemployment.

2. 3 months? Our school end in the middle of June and we need to be here in the end of August. 2.5 months AT BEST; actually less if you count the other meetings they rope you into over the summer.

I have almost 3 months of the year that I don't have a job. I'll admit that.

I make a good salary. I make more than the average American. I'm thankful for that. But I am grossly underpaid in comparison to my education (not to mention that those making tampons at the local paper factory make more money than I do). You should be honest and admit that and not fall prey to the talking points of those that wish to undermine teachers.

[NYC_SKP]

75. It's hardly a vacation and it's not three months, not here.

Last days of school are in July and first days of school, or at least inservices for teachers, are in August.

Let's count:

Um, less than one month (July) plus less than one month (August), I get less than two months.

When I taught I worked the summers for extra pay, and I dare say many if not most teachers would prefer not to have so much time out of work and would rather work more days and have a higher salary.

In most districts with which I am familiar, teachers are given the choice of a ten-month or a twelve-month pay schedule.

In any case, I wouldn't call it a 3 month vacation and if it IS one, it's damned well deserved.

[LeFleur1]

100. 3 Months Vacation?

Many, or even most, teachers go to school in the summer, at their own expense. They are paid for 180 or 183 days of work (or whatever the Union gets for them over the 180 for planning days) and they do far more than that. If they get a check in the summer it is because they divide their 180 days of pay into 12 months. They bring work home every night, they check and plan on weekends.

A baby teacher got a sound bite on the news last night saying the union made her work only hours from 9 until 3. I do not know one teacher who only works 9 to 3 each day, or any week day for that matter. There is the matter of evening and morning meetings (sometimes ridiculous time fillers for administrators). AND all of the teachers I know are union members. Her comment was bunk, but gobbled up and praised by an unknowing media.

There certainly are some teachers who are worn out after years, but must stay the number of years someone has deemed enough years for retirement. There are some teachers who should have chosen a different career. But this President's attack on teachers seems to stem largely from test scores in poor areas where parents are depressed, busy, and/or drugged and the lifestyle is reflected in the children's attitude toward school. ALL schools in the USA are not terrible. And most teachers try as hard as they can to reach the children in their classrooms.

Another point. Some children are capable of gaining a huge number of points on tests, once they learn the mechanics of taking the tests, or once they are tested on the curriculum they have been taught instead of some pie in the sky test that does not consider the curriculum of the district. Other children can only improve slightly, under the above conditions, because that is all they are capable of doing.
Our public school system takes ALL children to educate regardless of their background, their skills in our language, their IQ, their motivation, their ability. That is our strength. Our government members should be a lot more thoughtful in their criticism of a public school system that attempts to teach ALL U.S. children. They can't even get the simplest bill passed for the good of the country.

This attack on teachers is sickening. It doesn't differ much from an attack on our soldiers. Some soldiers are bad apples, but most are doing their best under less than perfect circumstances.

[kwassa]

79. I don't get paid in the summer

and I work another job during that time.

I am a 10-month employee, as a teacher. I get paid for 10 months. That is it.

[Dorian Gray]

94. What?

Of course they collect their salary. It's amortized into bi-weekly (usually... sometimes monthly) pay checks.

[KittyWampus]

55. Teachers get 3 months vacation in the summer. It's too bad the previous poster said "paid".

[Goblinmonger]

71. So if a truck driver only drives for 3 days a week.

And doesn't drive for the other 4 and subsequently doesn't get paid, do you say that truck drivers have 4 days of vacation every week?

We aren't working. There is no job. We aren't getting paid for the time that we aren't working.

[earthside]

35. Drudge training.

As long as the Bush-Spellings-Obama-Duncan policy towards education is in the public schools --- the LESS time the kids spend there --- the better.

And, this "good" teacher point is a canard (sorry, Mr. President) ... as teachers are relegated to test preparation for constant testing of a rigid standardized and nationalized curriculum, the notion of a "good" teacher is not what it used to be anyway.

A "good" teacher under the Oprah-Gates-Guggenheim model is one who works without union protection and is absolutely not creative or innovative, but fills-out endless feedback forms and tests unceasingly to provide data for administrators and politicians.

Students under the 'Race to the Top' scheme are being trained to become 21st century corporate 'indentured servants' -- saddled with thousands of dollars of college loans so they can work as drudges in some corporate cubicle.

[Dappleganger]

37. Oh my, I can't wait to tell

all of my teacher friends that they'll be getting a three-month paid vacation next year.

I see a CRUISE to the Bahamas in their future!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[uncommon]

39. Maybe I am meeting the wrong teachers, but every teacher I have known

has spent most of their summers either working a different job or doing nothing.

[Dappleganger]

44. For THREE months?

The teachers I know in NE FL and VA are lucky to get a month and a half completely off. And it's certainly not "paid vacation". The smart ones take off out of town so nobody from the county office will be able to convince them to do anything on their well-deserved (and unpaid) break.

[KittyWampus]

63. OH! Maybe cause those are reddish states? I live in NY>

maybe we treat teachers a bit better?

[Dappleganger]

67. You probably do.

"Reddish states" treat their teachers like crap when it comes to pay and benefits. And they do not get THREE months off, paid or not.

[Kalyke]

84. First, a teacher's contract is generally over 10 months.

Where in the world do they still get three total months vacation? My son starts in mid-August and ends at the end of May. When you consider the time teachers must prepare to get ready for school, finish school out, etc., it's 10 months.

They do NOT get paid for the remaining two months.

However, many opt to get the pay divided by 12 months instead of 10 months, but they aren't making anymore for the 12 than they are for the 10.

[bluestateguy]

13. That longer school year will go over real well

Especially with the summer vacation industry (think Florida's electoral votes, Mr. President), as well as millions of kids whose earliest childhood memory of politics was that you wanted to shorten their summer vacation.

[uncommon]

15. Summer vacation is absolutely gratuitous. And when I was a kid, I would have rather been in school

with my friends than at home with my annoying family. I loved summer vacation for about 3 weeks.

Most people don't spend the summer "vacationing" - they spend it working and their kids spend it in expensive camps and daycares or unsupervised at home.

[bluestateguy]

19. And is that a bad thing?

My parents took me on a vacation to Washington D.C. in the summer of 1991, where I learned more than I could have learned from my mediocre history teacher in 8th grade.

And learning and personal/social development does not and should not just occur in the classroom

And when you get older you can make a little extra money by working, which can teach you some valuable life lessons, and make a little money too. For poorer families, this is not a matter of personal fulfillment, but economic necessity.

[Odin2005]

23. Kids need time away from the classroom to be KIDS and let their imaginations wander.

Our corporate elites don't want that, of course. they want unimaginative drones.

[Barack_America]

85. Wouldn't it be nice if that could happen in our classrooms?

Frankly, I personally don't see any "fix" that doesn't re-evaluate our educational philosophy as being of much worth. The biggest tragedy in our country is not our failing math and science scores, it's our inability to produce intellectually curious children with a passion for learning.

IMHO, of course.

[MadHound]

32. No, it's not,

Basic Ed Psych, kids' brains are wired to learn through play, and they do it quite well.

Not to mention that teachers also need a break, to refresh, recharge, work on their profession and learn new skills.

[WinkyDink]

34. Really? Not much of a swimmer were you?

[Dappleganger]

52. There are plenty of kids who do...

they go visit their grandparents and other relatives for the summer, they're enrolled in sports camps and other types of camps. Older kids can work more hours during the summer (and all of our teens LOVE to work!). Kids hang out with their friends at the community pool or their own (here in FL, most folks have their own).

I am sorry you have such a disillusioned view of the life of school teachers and summer vacation, but try not to ruin it for everyone else if possible.

[Cosmocat]

25. Yeah ...

I agree with the other poster ... Summer vacation is probably too long at this point ...

The "three month vacation" for teachers does get a little overstated, most, as noted, GOOD ones, do start gearing up early in August ... But, many pick up second jobs, too ... They are getting paid really well now, for the most part, no reason not to extend the school year a bit at least ... Nothing dramatic - from 180 days to maybe 210 or so ...

Studies do show a deterioration with that much time off ...

[Goblinmonger]

50. If you extend the school year, the teacher salary is going to go up.

Or at least it should. The salary I get right now assumes that I work for 186 days (if I remember my contract language correctly--it may be a few days more). If the school year is upped to 210 days (which I don't know that I have a problem with), then I would expect to be paid for those additional 30ish days of work. Certainly you wouldn't tell any other worker that they need to do 6 more weeks of work for free.

[Freddie Stubbs]

27. People tend to vacation in FL in the colder winter months, not the summer

[seabeyond]

16. amazing... all this time we had set school year, reaching way into past and seemed adequate

for all of us. teachers were about the same. curriculum much lower than today. and boom

all of a sudden all teachers lousy, they system doesn't work, kids need more time in school

yet does not address the real changes from today and yesterday...

let my kids get out of this system before it is totally fucked up

some of the changes they have implemented is doing more harm than the original issues. but never addressing the real problems.

[Paper Roses]

18. I can't say I disagree with this. Sub-par teachers waste the time and

minds of children. Tenure be darned.


When my girls were in school, we had countless meetings with the powers that be about a couple of teachers whose main job of the day seemed to take attendance. My girls were fortunate that they were academically above average and we worked with them at home to supplement what was lacking in a couple of their classes. Nothing was ever done. There were no special programs for advanced kids when mine were in school. I gather that now, this has been addressed in many places. When one of my girls was in 5th grade, she spent the school day by herself, doing schoolwork that the other kids had not yet reached. She cried every morning before going. Think the school would provide help? Nope.

I do not want to indict all teachers but there are some that should retire or change professions.

Rather than a longer school year, I would advocate the elimination of some of what I consider ill spent time. Study hall? Study at home. One hour of gym a week? I know exercise is important and most kids do not get enough but I doubt this one hour would make a difference. I feel the time would be better spent on academics.

There is so very much for the kids to learn I feel sorry for them but later in life, they will be thankful for all the 'schooling' they had.

Sports? After school but not at 5AM or 8PM as I sometimes see kinds here on the fields. How exhausted they must be to go hope after practice and open the books.

I really don't know what the answer is but I do feel there needs to be a new, universal structure to the school year.

[howaboutme]

20. Why isn't public education 12 months per year?

How many students are needed in 2010 by their families to help harvest crops? This is the historical reason for having summers off. Many schools are already air conditioned. Our schools should be demanding and work to excel and not merely perpetuate the status quo.

As a nation we need to put emphasis on education and reduce the emphasis on sports. Tell the NBA, NFL, NBL etc that they will need to develop their own talent at their expense.

School districts have far too many administrators and staff instead of educators involved in education. We need to compare school districts and states by results and cost per student.

Too much emphasis is on the education bureaucracy instead of on students. I'm not for privatizing education but we need to put the attention on students and results.

[seabeyond]

49. my kids dont stop their education at school end. thru out the summer

they do more reading (and they already do a lot in school) critical think and continual stimulation of the brain.

the summer is as conducive to their learning as the school year, in different manners. IF your child lacks that, you might want to reflect on your responsibilities to your child

[happyslug]

87. Has to do with the job market,

The US has the most mobile working population in the developed world. The people most "mobile" i.e. moves the most are people in their 20s and 30s. Those are the same ages people have children. Thus mobility must include not only mobility of the adults in the household but also the children.

Collages handle children whose parent move by simply saying it does NOT matter where their parents live, but the child MUST finish in their collage to get a degree from that collage. That is NOT true of Elementary, Middle or high school. You can move into a School district the month before graduation and you graduate from that new school NOT your old school (Unless the Schools agrees to keep you on AFTER your parents left the school district, some school districts permit such actions others do not).

Now, must children who transfers during the school year end up missing a year i.e. have to take that year all over again. To avoid this most parents move during the summer. While what each school teachers varies throughout the year, most schools have a similar aim at the end of the year. Thus come the end of the year most children are about what they are no matter what school they are coming from. Now, "about the same" is NOT the same thing as being the same. Some schools teach certain things one year, other another. Today, when a child transfers during the summer the refresher course in the start of the new year refreshes the children who had the subject before AND THOSE TRANSFEREE'S WHO HAD NOT, WOULD LEARN IT FOR TH FIRST TIME AND THUS BE EQUAL WITH THE REST OF THE CLASS.

Thus the three months Summer Vacation solves the problem of NOT having uniform books, Uniform subjects, and uniform teaching manuals (going to the degree what MUST be taught when during the School year) by forcing EVERY Student to go through a refresher course. Thus the Refresher course not only refreshes everyone, it also permits students NEVER EXPOSED TO WHAT THE REST OF THE CLASS HAS LEARNED, to learned the same subjects.

Just pointing out that Summer Vacation today has less to do with Farming (the time when Farming needs the most workers is the Spring Planting and Fall Harvest, both have occurred during the School Year since about 1900), then the ability of families with young children to move from one end of the US to another. It is this mobility that summer vacation facilities and why all attempts to eliminate it has failed. Those few schools that have had abolished Summer Vacation has have to face the problem of HOW do their prepare their students when such transferred are required AND how do they make sure students who are transferred in are NOT skipping things they should be learning.

If I am a 12th grade senior in my school and must move to another school district a month before graduation, that school district MUST graduate me or keep me another year. Which does it do? In a year long school year we will have to face that situation. What would you do, given the 12th grader can NOT be left in his or her old school district for he or she is to young to rent a home of their own AND by law the only Public School they can attend is the School District their parents are living in?

Just a comment that Summer Vacation serves a purpose, it is purpose no one wants to acknowledge for the simple sake to acknowledge it means you have to address that purpose and no one wants to. The reason they do NOT want to address that problem is any solution (other then Summer vacation) would require the Federal Government to set nationwide standards up to and including what is taught when (i.e. addition by October of the Second Grade, Subtraction by January, Multiplication by March of the Third Year, Division by January etc). Any student who do NOT meet these goals will have to have additional instruction on such goals (additional instructions that cost money). Books will have to be standardized, right down to what is being taught in history, science etc. Right now what is in text books is being argued at the School Board Level, but a nation wide system would require Congress to include what is the standards as to text books and that will cause nothing but arguments no matter what Congress does (And Congress is NOT that stupid, whatever text books they select will be opposed by someone and thus selecting a nation wide text books is a losing proposition no matter what they do, thus someone is NOT going to be happy so Congress will avoid making such decisions at all costs, even kicking it back to the School Board to avoid the issue).

My point is someone has done a survey and found that "improving schools" and "year round schooling" are two things most voters agree with, but only if no one really talks about them. They sound good on their face, the problem is in the details on HOW to achieve both AND how do school handle mid- school year transfers? (With no summer vacation, mid school year transfers will become the norm and thus can NOT be ignored as they are today).

[howaboutme]

95. You make very good points

and illustrate the devil is always in the details. But the problem is that the status quo of education is unacceptable. Schools are getting more money while basic results are declining. We need changes and we need pilot programs that get outside of the box. Education has become as much about keeping the institution alive and prosperous, as educating the children. We spend large amounts per child and are getting less results.

I do think that much of it is societal where we have single parents living on the financial edge without the time and inclination to spend motivating their children. Another problem that I see are the huge amount of resources and effort that are expended on keeping those in the standard classroom who sadly are just not capable of achieving. That pushes down the potential achievement of others. My school district has paid large 5 and 6 figure settlements to parents who claim that their special needs children aren't getting a proper education. Then they have the right to keep the names of these parents anonymous.

I'm starting to believe that there should be an annual amount allocated to each student for education as an achiever, underachiever or special needs. It is not fair to spend huge additional resources on under achievers at the expense of those who are motivated.

[happyslug]

99. Why are basic resulting decline? We are NOT removing "bad students"

Schools use to (and still do) improve their Scores by the simple act of removing or other wise driving out "bad students". This has become harder and harder to do over the last 40 or so years, so such "bad students" tend to stay in school and bring down the overall average of that school. The trend to charter schools has made this even worse, by permitting the "better Students" to go somewhere else, thus also bring down the average.

How do you address this problem? The best solution is embrace Deming's philosophy to "Quality" i.e. the best way to improve quality of anything is to attack the worse input (he rejected the concept as going for the "best and Brightest" on the grounds you can NEVER be better then your worse input). Deming gave a speech on quality in Japan expressing his ideas in the early 1950s (When Japanese made product were junk at best) and Japan adopted his policy while American manufactures rejected his advice. Thus the US - Japanese quality difference become a difference between attacking the worse input (Japan) or going for the best and brightest (America). We all know how that disputed ended (hint, American Companies have slowly been adopting Deming's policies since the 1980s when it became clear his side had won).

Thus the Deming policy would be to attack the worse input, these "bad students". The problem with these "bad students" is they are the most difficult to educate AND cost the most money to educate. They tend not to have ANY support for education at home (including an inability to do ANY homework, do to the condition of their households i.e. no place to do homework and/or no peace and quiet to do homework). Furthermore they move the most, i.e. the student may go to the same school, but may have many different homes throughout the year as their parents (and most likely parent) is evicted or otherwise have to move from home to home (I once had a client who moved over 20 times in a one year period with her child). In most cases such students not only change homes but changes schools. Again I am talking of Grade School, Middle School and High School Students NOT Collage Students. By law such students MUST go to the School District where their parents live, not where they use to live even if that is within walking distance.

How do you handle such children? Furthermore given the overall decline in wages to everyone below $100,000 a year (and to a greater degree to those people earning less then $10,000 a year), such movements have become more and more the norm (Especially since Public Housing stop being built in the 1970s, and Section 8 New Construction Housing stopped in the 1980s). This overall decline in income and the resulting instability of housing for lower income people is the main cause for the decline in education NOT anything the schools are doing differently then they did in the 1960s (When Income Distribution became the most equal AND housing in relationship to income was at its lowest).

Just pointing out the "Decline" in education over the last 40 or so years had less to do what is being done by the Teachers and other School personnel, and more to do with the over decline in the economy in relation to the lowest income groups sending their children to school.

Side Note: One of the factors that determine how good a school is, is how much input the Parents have into the School. The greater parental input, the better the school. The Parent-Teacher Association (PTA) insist on good parent amount of parent input and ways to encourage such input. Thus one of the good signs of a good school is does it have a PTA organization. One of the signs of a bad school district is that it has a PTO (Parent Teacher Organization) instead (Or NO Parent-Teacher organization at all). PTO are often set up in School Districts that do NOT want to meet the requirements of the National PTA organization. Thus PTOs are signs of Schools NOT wanting parent input. A school that emphasis its football/Basketball or other team sport over its academics is another sign (Notice I say "Sign" a good school can have a good football program, but the key is what is emphases, football or parental input).

Just a comment, good school is the product not only of the Teachers but the Parents. Together they can make a good school better (or even a bad school good). The administration must encourage such togetherness, but in many schools parents are viewed as the enemy (one step above teachers) and as such must be fought all the way.

What we need is to encourage even had to educate parents to participate in School activities (NOT Sports, but things like Parent-Teacher meetings etc). That improves schools the most. We also need to track the hard to educate and get them an education even if other social programs HAVE to be added to the mix (i.e. Children and Youth, Housing, Welfare etc). These programs HAVE to be coordinated together to help the families of these hard to educate students and unless we are willing to provide what is needed the situation will continue to go down hill for such students (Even as most students prosper under the system we have been using since the Civil War, with just marginal increase in School Days since 1900).

[Odin2005]

21. Longer school year = killing kids' imagination.

[howaboutme]

26. How so?

That's a fairly broad statement.

What age do you define "kids" as they have different creative desires and needs at different ages?

Suburban kids are typically over scheduled with sports and extra curricular activities.

Other kids when they aren't participating in regimented activities waste their spare time on video games.

[AngryAmish]

41. It's science

[TBF]

24. I've been advocating year-round school for years.

It would be easier to fit in the art, music & PE/sports that are now taking the hit in many school districts. Give a week off at natural breaks (passover, thanksgiving, christmas, easter, memorial day, labor day) so families can have a vacation or two.

Along with this higher teachers salaries in line with private industry. I'm not sure about reviews - but test scores seems like a crappy way to do it. How about 360 evals - let the students, teachers & peers all write reviews. You'd probably get a more accurate read on teachers by having a bunch of folks weigh in.

I do agree with the president that there is always room for improvement, but would like to see him embrace the unions to work together rather than grudgingly accept their existence.

[WinkyDink]

28. To what end? The crushing college-student loans or the no-jobs?

Of course, Obama expects no more money to be paid for the extra teaching time.

[w8liftinglady]

29. ok.As one who is not a teacher...I wish the school year were longer.

My ex and I struggled in the summertime trying to take care of kids and work fulltime.We were lucky,as we both worked in healthcare and could change our schedules a bit.i felt really sorry for some of my friends who weren't so lucky.Child care between 75-100.00/week on an already strained budget...and increased stress on the family.a month would be workable.Three months-too much.

[WinkyDink]

36. Schools as baby-sitters? All-righty, then.

[w8liftinglady]

66. it doesn't effect me.I am just speaking as an uninformed parent.

kind of like the nurse that's supposed to get ice and wipe a shitty ass...what I went to college for 4 years for.not the most glamorous part of my job...but it has a good outcome for my patients and their families,therefore,I do it well and with respect and style.i apologize if I came off as putting you down.That really wasn't my intent,I promise.i appreciate all that has been done for my sons by their teachers,and all my boyfriend does for his kids in the 5th grade.

[Goblinmonger]

53. I would need a raise to be a baby sitter.

Let's assume that you would pay me $5/hour to babysit your kid. I teach, on average, 25 kids for 6 hours during the day. That is 150 hours of babysitting for a total of $750 a day. Multiply that times the 180 days of school and I should be making $135,000. I guarantee you I am not making that much money.

I'm not a babysitter; I'm an educator. Let's make decisions based on what is best for the kids and not what is most convenient for the parents. Sorry for your troubles, though.

[w8liftinglady]

74. i think you should get a raise,anyway.teachers are the most critical component to...

the progression of the nation as a whole...well,next to nurses(I'm biased).I do understand what your job entails,and just wish there were a more balanced school year.I am not,by any means,an expert...nor would I expect you to be a "babysitter"...especially not for a 9 or 10 year-old.I just know that my boyfriend...who teaches in a very impoverished neighborhood...says that the kids go largely ignored for 10-12 hours/day during the summertime.i know-it's not your responsibility.I just wish there were some kind of alternative.

[Goblinmonger]

76. Cool enough.

Just hate the babysitter argument and I incorrectly attributed it to you.

Now that my prep period is over I have to go teach (and got basically no work done in the process).

:toast:

[WinkyDink]

40. 1. He knows risibly nothing about school TRANSPORTATION COSTS; 2. He knows equally nothing about

HEATING and AC COSTS; he knows less about INCREASED TEACHER COSTS (oh, you thought teachers would just work more days on the same salaries?).

Ask your school district's Business Office for the financial records. And THEN come back and tout the Year-Round concept.

And Obama can also try articulating WHAT he'd like to SEE and have taught, instead of acting all tough on "poorly-performing teachers."
Does he KNOW what school curricula comprise, even?
Is he aware of how much administrators get to impose on teachers re: classroom teaching and discipline?
Is he aware that teachers do not construct the class day (someone here complained about "study halls", e.g.)?
That teachers must try to adhere to a curricular timeline in the face of student absenteeism, school assemblies, early-dismissal sporting events, early-dismissal "in-service" days, and days (yes, plural) given over to standardized testing?

Now excuse me. It's 10:06 a.m., my next class will be here in 5 minutes (Oops! Some are entering the room now!), the faculty lav (with one toilet per gender; hope there's no line!) is a two-minute walk from here, and my next break is 90 minutes away.
NO EXAGGERATION. EVERY DAY for DECADES.

SUMMER was a respite, even if it sometimes included taking Graduate courses or writing curriculum.

[Dappleganger]

57. +1000000

Our states' education budgets are seriously underfunded as it stands, and then they are still looking for ways to cut costs. They barely have enough money to operate under the schedule we have NOW. There's no way in hell any state is going to be able to come up with enough money in these economic times to pull off more school days.

We need smarter education, not longer school schedules.

[ecstatic]

80. Or it could be that he knows about the extra costs

and is willing to make the investment so U.S. students don't fall further behind? :shrug:

[Dappleganger]

42. As a parent to four...

I would D I E if we were forced to go to year-round school. And no, Mr. President, a longer school year doesn't help enough. Our states are already under-funding education as it is and even discussing cutting back the school week to save even more money. Many districts who went to year-round school are going back to the traditional year as well.

We don't need longer school, we need SMARTER SCHOOL.

[annabanana]

43. Three months on, one month off. .

School
Sept through November
December off

School
Jan though March
April off

School
May through July
August off

[Goblinmonger]

56. I actually kind of like that model

but that might translate to the same or less time in school as compared to this model.

But I think that is a better option. Have smaller breaks so there is less loss of information. You could even make the "summer" break a week longer than the others. Also, you may want to have a 4-unit option for schools that would like to do quarters instead of trimesters.

[LeFleur1]

102. Long Breaks

The reason teachers must review each fall is because of the long break over the summer. Long breaks during the year (a month, three weeks) could result in the same one step forward one back. Teachers sometimes spend up to six weeks each fall reviewing (some not so long). If they have to review three weeks after every break in the school year it could be a catastrophe. (Every child does not 'forget', but many do, and those children are in our schools, too).

[Tatiana]

51. I actually support a more balanced school year (year-round school).

Since our society is not a majority agricultural one at this point in time, it makes no sense to have the long summer break. Year round schools do students a service by allowing them to review, assimilate, and better retain information learned.

And I'm so sick of this attack on teachers under the guise of going after the so-called "bad teachers." If a teacher is bad, a school or school district has options to get rid of them:

a) Don't grant them tenure (if no improvement in teaching has been demonstrated after provided support and intervention, do not hire the teacher back).
b) Grant due process and if it is proven that a teacher has not lived up to state and local expectations, fire them.

We're ignoring a huge problem, which is the lazy (but well-paid) administrator. If a teacher is "bad," the administrator should have ample documentation to prove why the teacher should be dismissed. But oftentimes these administrators do not document as they should, nor do they afford teachers due process.

At other times, the issue of tenure becomes important when a teacher finds himself/herself hated by a particular administrator/principal. Let's face it - we see teachers who have taught at the same school for 10, 15, 20 years. Oftentimes a particular teacher is one of the most consistent and stable persons in students' lives. You usually don't see administrators in the same building for 10 or 20 years. Tenure protects a teacher from losing their jobs due to factors unrelated to job performance (such as personality differences, vindictive administrators, or an administrator's desire to be surrounded with his/her buddies). Tenure protected a teacher I work with, who was unfairly attacked by a new principal (who coincidentally had NO CLASSROOM EXPERIENCE WHATSOEVER but was supposed to evaluate the classroom performance of others). Five years later, the principal was fired for incompetence and the teacher is still there, still writing competitive grants for the school, and still teaching students about English and the creative writing process.

[WinkyDink]

65. Thank you. Funny how the BOSSES never are discussed, isn't it??

[Massacure]

81. If I had to develop a school system

I'll use 2010 as an example. My ideal school would run:

January 11 - March 19
April 12 - June 18
July 12 - September 17
October 11 - December 17

That is 10 weeks on, 3 weeks off. The three week breaks would give less time for student's knowledge to attrition as compared to a three month summer break. This calendar includes 200 days instead of 180. I would contract the teachers to a day which would run 8:00-5:30. Classes would run 9:00-5:00. Students would be obligated to show up at 8:30. Attendance and daily announcements would be done, then free breakfast would be offered. Class would run 9:00-9:50, 10:00-10:50, 11:00-11:50, etc... Students would have either 12:00-12:50 or 1:00-1:50 off for lunch. Teachers would also get an hour lunch, plus two class periods off to do their own work. They would teach during five of the eight possible class periods. Four of the class periods would be an official class, and the fifth would be monitoring a study hall or being assigned to a math or science or communication "resource room" where students could go for extra help with their work. Some students used study halls as a time to clown around in the lunch commons, so the resource rooms would be a place for students to do their work quietly and to get help with it if they need it.

This post is little scatter-brained. Now that I think about this, I think I wrote this with more of a high school in mind than an elementary school.

[JVS]

89. People want that free daycare service that the schools supply for more time.

[DirkGently]

90. Let's chuck entitled, disruptive students and their enabling parents first. Then we'll talk.

[JCMach1]

91. Get the politicians out of Education and we will all be better off...

[B Calm]

92. Get rid of the gang bangers first!

[happyslug]

104. And do what with them?

"Gang bangers" tend to come from the most unstructured of families, moved often while in school (NOT do to disturbance in school, just that their parents had to move i.e. could no longer pay the rent). Changed school districts almost as often as their changed homes. Do to these constant moves, there missed huge section of education (Mostly do to the fact they moved from one school to another, different books and often different levels of education).

"Gang Bangers" have actually been in the decline since the 1980s, tied in with the expansion of Protection from Abuse (PFA). Pre-School Children with their mothers at home see their fathers come home and beat her up. Such pre-school children accept this as normal and when in school become known to other students as mean bullies. These mean bullies find out they get their way (Just like their fathers did at home) so do even more violence. When in Middle School this gets worse and by high school most are into fighting (NOT normal male fighting, which ALL males goes through in middle school BUT mean fighting, i.e. breaking the rules of teenage male fighting, i.e. actually doing something to hurt someone else as to just fighting).

These mean teenagers became the bar fighters when their turn 21 (long after most males STOP fighting) and abusive boyfriends, husbands and Fathers.

Now, young pre-school girls in such households also learn a similar lesson, first it is the right of males to beat up women when whatever the women does is NOT want the male wanted. Such women tend to learn to be "weak" and dependent on others (i.e. NEVER independent). As young teens they tend to mate up with someone who can control them, like their fathers controlled their mothers, and the cycle starts all over again.

Yes, both "Gang Bangers" and their women are products of the same type of home. They find each other. On the other hand when a Women does get a PFA and kicks their abusive mate out, the children learn a lesson. The girls learn that they do NOT have to accept abuse, the boys that abuse will NOT always get want you want. This change in attitude has been slow, but it the product of the increase numbers of PFAs since their were first authorized in the early 1970s. It will take several more generations to make a permanent break but what we are doing today in regards to PFAs is a good start.

Now back to "Gang-Bangers". These type of students have existed forever (Davey Crockett ran across one in his early days of school and the abuse caused him to run away from home as a pre-teen, for his father wanted him to go to school but the teacher did NOT want to stop the bully). Since they have existed forever schools have had to deal with them. The problem is the solution was to kick out such students. The problem with that solution is you end up with a set of violent men who can do no productive work and thus a base for a violent criminal community. How do you break up such a violent criminal community, you get them jobs they can do, but being uneducated they are none they can do. Thus the solution has to include education and thus right back to the public school system.

The better solution would be to kick such students to special schools for such students. Any school can put any child in the special school AND PAY FOR THAT PLACEMENT (For such school will be two to three times as expensive as regular schools, thus the best check on abuse is the fee) but any further action (except removal back to regular school) be approved by a Judge. The Judge will also have jurisdiction over any and all other programs to help families, i.e. Children and Youth, Welfare, Housing etc and his decision in regards to such additional programs will be as binding as to such programs as to the children in front on the Judge. All of this cost money and no one wants to pay, and thus "gang-bangers" tend to remain in non-functional families without any support and whose friends who are also product of such families and overall economic situation.

Just a comment on how to handle "gang-bangers" for their need education more then regular students, but such education also is expensive and no one wants to pay for it.


For more on W Edwards Deming:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming

For more on Davey Crockett:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davy_Crockett

[B Calm]

107. Put them in CHARTER SCHOOLS!

[happyslug]

108. Charter Schools do NOT want them, they cost to much to teach.

Thus the choice is Regular Public Schools, some sort of enhance Public School or no education at all. The last one should be rejected out of hand, but it is the first choice of many schools today.

[B Calm]

110. They prefer they stay in public schools to make charter schools look better.

[w4rma]

93. Obama is officially crazy on education. Totally nuts. (nt)

[spanone]

101. sounds reasonable to me