So do the teachers here feel sufficiently bloody, bruised, and bludgeoned?

[Orlandodem]

Are you ready for more of a public flogging?

Are you ready to continue to be blamed for society's problems?

Have you been humiliated and raked over the coals enough yet?

What young person in their right mind would go into education under these circumstances?

[DrDan]

1. my wife is a teacher

she hasn't had the time to read a paper since school started two months ago.
She never watches TV.

I don't believe I will share obama's vision when she gets home. She will be in no mood to do her 3 hours or so of necessary school work.

[Orlandodem]

2. Obama has put a knife in my back and twisted it while smiling.

I worked for him. I talked to my neighbors about him. I contributed to him.

Forget him.

[DrDan]

3. my wife teaches in the Orlando area, btw - LMHS

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KittyWampus]

74. LOL! Is your wife an underperforming teacher who needs help with her skills?

[alsame]

4. My 18 year old niece just started college to become a teacher. She's

wanted to be a teacher all her life - she was a little girl who used to play 'school' for hours. It's her dream and she is young and enthusiastic and idealistic.

Last week I called to ask about her first week at college and she was really upset about all the teacher bashing she keeps hearing. It's not changing her mind, but it's upsetting her that "everybody hates teachers now."

We had a long talk and I kept assuring her that it's the most important job there is, with the potential to positively impact many, many lives over the years.

It's really sad that it has come to this.

[ecstatic]

13. (sigh) Everyone does not hate teachers nt

[alsame]

28. That was just her perception, it's what she said to me. nt

[Recursion]

19. Depends on whom you ask

it's the most important job there is, with the potential to positively impact many, many lives over the years

Or, it's a job that absolutely cannot be measured by outcomes, because family and neighborhood life determine everything. I don't see how it can be both.

[Fumesucker]

21. Class sizes are not big enough to reduce the likelihood of statistical flukes to a minimum..

What happens to the good teacher who gets a "dumb" class, or one with a disruptive student or two?

[Recursion]

36. Their progress is measured

Or are you saying a teacher cannot improve those students?

(BTW, are people under the impression that outcome-based assessments simply judge the students' test scores, rather than the change of those scores over time?)

[Fumesucker]

45. A superior teacher gets a "bad" class while an inferior one gets a "good" class..

If a good teacher has to spend a significant portion of their time with disruptive students in a "bad" class they may well not improve that class as much as a less talented teacher might with a more easily led class.

Students and classes are not interchangeable products, each is unique and some are going to be easier to teach than others. My point is that class sizes are such that it is quite likely statistically for teachers to be unfairly judged by the progress of the class, both in a positive and a negative sense.

Some students and some classes are going to be harder to make progress with than others, are you aware of any plan that takes this fact into account?

[Recursion]

49. Yes, like every other job, there's a lot of unfairness in assessments

But that's still better than, say, the situation in DC where 94% of teachers were assessed as "highly effective" or "extremely effective" (looks like grade inflation happens for teachers, too).

Students and classes are not interchangeable products, each is unique and some are going to be easier to teach than others.

Yup, and there are ways to take that into account when measuring student improvement. Weight for ELL, special needs, poverty, etc. I know this name makes DUers burst into flames, but Rhee was doing that.

My point is that class sizes are such that it is quite likely statistically for teachers to be unfairly judged by the progress of the class, both in a positive and a negative sense.

Which is probably why every assessment scheme I know looks at multiple years with feedback and remediation plans.

[Fumesucker]

52. You are a DUer and I don't smell any smoke yet..

I'm not a teacher but I have a great deal of respect for those who do that job, it's a thankless and difficult one, I remember how bad a student I was and shudder at what some of my teachers had to go through just with me.

I've been around enough to know that workplace politics trumps damn near everything when it comes to employee evaluations, a politically astute hack will get good evaluations while a brilliant boat rocker will get poor ones, that's just the way humans roll.

Frankly I don't trust the motivations of those who are telling us that teachers are mostly scumbags, that hasn't been my experience as a student, a parent and now a grandparent.

[roody]

68. One or two disrupters would be great!

I have more than that.

[The Philosopher]

5. I'm in constant anxiety about going into teaching

Because I don't see there being sufficient protections. I'm gay and without a strong union, I could be fired easily (well, that can happen in any job, really). Without protections, the administration can claim anything they want and fire you.

It also seems to me that a lot of the firings done are based on money rather than performance. It's cheaper to go with a new teacher than keep around the experienced teacher. If I happened to get a Masters degree, I might be unemployable because they'd have to pay me more! So I have to be a dumber teacher just to get a job. Then I have to hope I don't rub the administration OR the parents the wrong way. Then I have to hope that I have excellent health benefits so I can afford the medication for my severe depression from the stress of being closeted and celibate (or worse, forced to marry someone of the opposite sex).

However, I am excited about exposing kids to literature. So maybe it's all balanced in the end.

[Quantess]

15. I must correct you on one point:

Having only a bachelors degree does not make you a "dumber teacher" than one with a masters degree. Less educated, sure. But you might be more effective than some better educated ones. I have a masters degree, but I stunk at crowd control. I have good teaching skills, but it's very difficult to teach when the classroom is out of control. This is just one example.

Also, please don't marry someone of the opposite sex if you are gay. I'm guessing that you graduated High School recently, which would mean you are young and shouldn't feel pressured to marry anyone.

[madfloridian]

6. It's a shame. Public shaming of teachers day in day out.

I gave you a rec, but it did not even register.

[66 dmhlt]

7. NBC has given its full measure to

Teacher and union bashing.

And you could just tell Brian Williams and Matt Lauer just loved doing it, corporate-asshole, right-wing sycophants that they are.

[girl gone mad]

11. What reporter was ever held accountable for failing to do their job in the lead up to Iraq?

Fuck Brian Williams and Matt Lauer. They should both be on the streets washing windshields for spare change.

[Swamp Rat]

14. You're too kind.

I'd have them cleaning latrines in Afghanistan for no spare change.

[Recursion]

18. Well, Judith Miller went to jail NT

[Hannah Bell]

40. +100. and not just them; something like 98% of the entire media corps.

That was a massive, massive fail.

Where's the accountability?

We could continue in that vein: there's an ongoing attempt by GM to rachet down the wages of its workforce & shitcan them so they're ineligible for benefits -- nearly completely ignored by the mainstream media, who is instead assigning it crack investigative corps to cover two union guys who bought beers at lunch.

FAIL, FAIL, FAIL.

bought-off, lying HACKS.

[proud2BlibKansan]

62. +1,000

[wcast]

32. I had to turn off the weather channel this morning because it was pusing the NBC program

They had some cock and bull story about how only 35% of students in the US read at a proficient level. Give me a break. Of course, what proficient is is never defined, but even so, 35%!!

[Tatiana]

8. Well, we expect this sort of thing from Republicans.

But it really does sting coming from Democrats, who I thought supported public education.

[Quantess]

9. I am glad I gave up being an educator years ago,

even though it was in the special education field, where there is generally better job security. Plus, I didn't have to worry about NCLB testing, only IEPs. Still, there were enough reasons to never want to work in the educational system again. If I could go back in time, I wouldn't do it again.

[Bigmack]

10. I did 30 years in a HS classroom... doesn't hurt anymore.. nt

[cyr330]

12. I used to be a teacher for 10 long years. . .

and I BARELY scraped by financially, just making about $21,000 a year. When I added up all the hours I was putting in at school, it came out to be LESS than minimum wage! I know that jobs are not all about $$, but it's hard to see teachers being criticized for all of society's ills when they are so badly paid!

[Recursion]

16. Too much funding differences between districts

Public school teachers can actually make a pretty good salary in an urban school system; DCPS pays teachers more than Sidwell Friends, for instance (though the DCPS teachers call it hazard pay). They start at like $54K and get COLAs and scheduled raises. But then in smaller districts teachers like you are forced to live on less than minimum wage. We need to de-localize public school funding, somehow.

[Recursion]

17. I've never seen a profession value itself less than teachers on this board

I've never seen a group of people state so emphatically that they are absolutely powerless to effect positive changes, and that the results of their work are entirely random. It's kind of disturbing.

[Fumesucker]

20. Teachers are not in control of the curriculum, administrators and politicians are..

They are also not in control of which children are assigned to their classrooms, that would be the administrators again.

I'm not nor ever have been a teacher but I understand their dilemma.

[merqz]

23. That seems to be very much a public school thing

At the private high school I went to, the teachers were the ones primarily responsible for the curriculum they provided. I had a very unique freshman English teacher, who used some teaching materials and style that would NEVER fly in a public school. He was immensely effective and loved, but he could have neverr fit into the public school system.

I am sure there are some private schools that have top down curriculum defined, just like public schools. But at least some private schools give teachers far more autonomy, although far less security.

[Fumesucker]

26. In my neck of the woods the private schools are almost entirely of the "Christian Academy" sort..

I was talking to a smart sixteen year old who had attended one of these academies for most of his education a while back, the kid was very interested in science but had never heard of Neanderthal man.

Needless to say my opinion of private schools took a distinct downturn at that point, I know they're not all that way but far too many are and those are the ones whose students I'm mostly exposed to around here.

[merqz]

29. Mine wasn't.

It was Christian, but hardly like that. Our biology teacher spent tons of time on Darwin, etc. My freshman English teacher I mentioned had us read James Joyce. He also had us memorize our choice of passages from Shakespeare. He created a whole mythology around a character he created and told us stories about him throughout the year. He just never could have survived in any conventional public school. My school required we take a 2 week course in aspects of Quakerism, and didn't allow any clothing that suggested or supported the military.

Most of the kids at my school were not Quaker. I had a friend at a local Catholic school who was Jewish, but his parents sent him there for the education and discipline. He liked it.

[roody]

70. and much less pay.

[ladywnch]

25. ditto. teachers are much like soldiers....they can only carry out the orders

given them......the curriculum and budgeting are NOT their doing......they are as much a victim of it as the students are.

Do I doubt there are lousy teachers? hell no. There are people who suck at their job in EVERY profession but entirely blaming teachers for the plight of the education system is just plain wrong.

[madfloridian]

24. Teachers are held in check by administrators.

They can be called in and admonished for even writing a letter to the editor on school matters.

They can be marked down for speaking out against policy.

[Recursion]

37. Is there a job where that's not true?

Anywhere in the US?

[EFerrari]

34. Could you please show me where any teacher here at DU

said they were absolutely powerless to effect positive changed and that the results of their work are entirely random? Thanks.

[Recursion]

35. People say assessment of student outcomes is meaningless

Because teachers can't overcome the disadvantages students bring to the table. Have you actually not seen that? I can go dig up any number of threads.

[EFerrari]

38. Any teacher that claims to be able to overcome the disadvantages

a student brings to the table is suffering from some kind of delusion. We don't overcome anything. We work with the student that shows up that day and we try to bring them forward.

But that isn't what you claimed is it?

[Recursion]

39. So it's possible to bring them forward?

Then that can be assessed, and the whole frame claiming that these kids are not educable is wrong.

If they can be educated, some people will be better at doing that than others.

[EFerrari]

42. Do you seriously believe any teacher on this board

thinks or argues that their students can't be educated?

Could you please show that?

[Recursion]

46. Yes

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9205136&mesg_id=9210563

(No idea if that poster is a teacher, just the most stark example of a sentiment I've seen many times.)

If you say students' home lives preclude teachers' reliably improving their academic performance (which is what you're saying when you deny outcome-based teacher assessment is meaningful as a concept), you're saying they can't be educated.

I'm not talking about people saying that this or that assessment method is wrong (most of them I've seen are pretty lame), I'm talking about posters on this board consistently claiming that measuring student improvement as part of a teacher assessment is a non-starter.

[proud2BlibKansan]

57. That's not a teacher.

Fail.

[Recursion]

61. "Fail" is less dramatic when I put that same caveat in myself NT

[roody]

72. How do you get them to go to bed at a reasonable

hour and to come to school on time?

[EFerrari]

22. I'm going back to teaching early next year

just to piss them off.

lol

:woohoo:

:rofl:

[Whisp]

27. the teachers here with the loudest mouths say there are no bad teachers.

that is pretty well hard to accept as in my time on this earth there is no group of any sort that is exempt from the regular weaknesses all us humans have - well, except teachers. All of them are super duper wonderful always forever and firing one for bad performance is like killing an angel.

Plus the ridiculous lies posted here by certain parties do not make for a climate of discussion in any serious matter. The few teachers that dare question the posse get a scolding and put on ignore so the conversation is pretty well the duplicate of the last one, and the one before that - that obama is a teacher killing devil with his minion duncan salivating at the thought that american children will be even less educated than they are now.

The pile here ons are fucking riduclous.. They sound like 6th students not the supposed responsible adults in charge of kids. the nyah nyahs, the inability to respond to some valid criticisms and questions.

[BlackHoleSon]

30. I have no skin in this game

In fact we took our 8 year old out of school earlier this year due to her being punished for not taking the full 45 minutes on her standardized reading exam - in which she scored in the 95th percentile.
So if anything, at this point in time, I'm not particularly fond of her former 3rd grade teacher.
That being said, even a blind pig can see the scam that is being perpetrated on the masses in the name of saving our kids from bad teachers, saving the teachers from themselves, teachers, teachers, teachers, bad, bad, bad, fail, fail, fail. It is a money and power grab, plain and simple, an issue that is easy to demagogue.
If you can't see this assault on teachers as being ripped from the same playbook as the run up to Iraq, the attack on SS and Medicare, the "Ground Zero Mosque" etc., really how much more is there to discuss?

[Whisp]

31. what attack on SS and Medicare?

please, give me some kind of information because as far as I know the 'catfood commission' :puke:
has not come up with amything yet but the rumours sure do fly about that Obama is not only going to starve the teachers but he is also going after the bones of the elderly and the sick.

gimme a fucking break.

[BlackHoleSon]

54. I didn't mention Obama

But now that YOU mention him, I think he is contributing to the narrative that the problem with education lies with the teachers, their unions, etc. Show me a school district where the PARENTS have little tradition of educational achievement and I will show you a district that doesn't perform well. I can goddarn guarantee you that is a bigger factor than under-performing teachers.

[eridani]

64. The people on the catfood commission have spent most of their lives attacking

--Social Security and Medicare. What kind of a naive sap do you have to be to think that they won't do it again?

[Quantess]

51. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[EFerrari]

33. Can you show me where any teacher here at DU said

there are no bad teachers? Thanks so much.

[fascisthunter]

44. what in the OP bothers you?

forget about the people here who take this issue seriously. Just focus on what in this OP is wrong and try not to attack people personally.

[PVnRT]

63. Bullshit

Go find a quote from someone saying "There are no bad teachers."

[QC]

76. Could you please link to such a statement? n/t

[Radical Activist]

84. Yep.

Anyone who disagrees is ganged up on right before they cry about being insulted. The only thing it has done is make me reconsider my opposition to charter schools. The series of misleading persecution narratives doesn't lead to any kind of intelligent discussion.

[Uzybone]

41. A motivated young person will still go into teaching

those who spend most of their time looking for praise from media figures instead of praise from students and parents will continue to moan.

[EFerrari]

43. So, you think that educators need to look for PRAISE

from students and parents? :wtf:

[Uzybone]

47. No..the shouldn't look for praise from the media either

and they certainly shouldn't feel bruised and bludgeoned by bad talk from media figures if they are doing their jobs.

Its like asking if young people will become lawyers since everyone makes fun of them. People who care about their jobs shouldn't be so sensitive.

[EFerrari]

48. It's not practical to ignore a nationwide PR campaign

to finger teachers for a complicated situation. Not pragmatic and not prudent, either.

[Uzybone]

50. ok

as long as we find ways to improve all our public schools I'm happy. The hurt feelings of some teachers are way down on the list of things we should worry about.

[EFerrari]

53. Well, disrespecting teachers on a national platform isn't good for our schools,

for the kids, let alone for teachers, the profession or young people thinking of going into education.

So "the hurt feelings of teachers" shouldn't be way down on the list because it is only the tip of an ice berg.

[JVS]

83. It's a shit job and it's losing the one thing that made it worth doing: security.

In a few years the only people left who will want to teach are a few idealists, freshly minted college grads who need something to hold them over until a better job or more schooling appears, and of course the pedophiles.

[johnaries]

55. The current Public School System sucks.

No if's, and's, or but's. We need to fix it. We need to look at every aspect, and no aspect is sacred. That includes Teachers. I'm sorry if Teacher's feel "attacked" because they are included, but if you are not part of the problem then you should be able to prove that.

We need to fix the public school education system for our children. And hearing a bunch of teachers whining "why are you looking at me?!?!?!?" makes me think that maybe we should take a closer look at why they are whining so hard and what they are trying to cover up.

I'm not trying to hurt anyone, I just want our kids to actually LEARN something.

[Lorien]

58. We need to fix it with funding

when there's overcrowding in nearly every school in America and teachers have to purchase all their own supplies there's little quality education that can happen.

[Lance_Boyle]

60. Just like we need to fix crime by building more prisons.

Throwing money at a problem does not make it go away. Giving a bad teacher more funding will accomplish what, exactly?

I have never seen a group of people so afraid of a little sunshine - many of DU's teachers come across as more secretive than Cheney. Expose the bad and reward the good - that takes evaluation. And evaluation takes... evaluation. Teachers cannot be exempt from job-performance scrutiny, and their union really needs to understand that point. Perhaps people would be less suspicious of the system if we could see into it.

[eridani]

65. Schools in affluent districts don't suck, and their achievment scores

--compare very favorably to international standards. They seem to be able to deal with having the occasional bad teacher.

[roody]

73. Our K-3 just went from 20 kids per class to 30.

I guess the fix is in.

[Occulus]

88. "but if you are not part of the problem then you should be able to prove that. "

That's called "proving a negative" and is impossible.

[proud2BlibKansan]

56. Please master, may I have some more?

Those coals aren't quite hot enough.

[maryf]

59. I discourage my students from considering teaching...

K&R

[Bucky]

67. Well that's pretty shitty.

I teach and I have a professional life full of joyful frustrations and regular successes. I've had quite a few kids of mine tell me they want to be teachers. It's got it's challenges and its setbacks, like any job, but I know and can see almost daily the positive difference I'm making. I can't imagine me loving any job more than this one.

[maryf]

79. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE my job too

but I'm concerned about where the teaching profession is going, and I hate to see my students get really screwed later...I'm glad I'm not young...

I think discourage might have been a strong word, more like forewarn them of the hardships...not of the kids, they are the best part of the job...

[Bucky]

80. Well, I mighta got up on my high horse too quickly.

My experience is that even when I'm not having a good days, the kids can tell when a teacher cares about how well they do. That more than anything is what encourages them to do their best on their own. That's something the kids's tests scores may never catch, but is what's most important of all in their education.

[maryf]

82. I agree!

:fistbump: solidarity...

[LWolf]

66. Whether I've had enough or not,

I have a feeling there's more coming. :(

[spanone]

69. under what circumstances?

[snooper2]

71. They shouldn't feel anything, should be at work right now..

not reading message boards :)

[The Midway Rebel]

77. Yeah, you are right....If they have full-time jobs.

Many of us don't.

[Iris]

86. The original post was a little before 4:00 p.m. By then, most teachers have already worked more

than an 8 hour day. I think they deserve a break to read a discussion board.

[Nye Bevan]

78. The *good* teachers should not feel bad at all.

I love good teachers. They deserve more respect and more money.

Bad teachers, on the other hand, should receive less money or in the worst cases be fired.

And I'm kind of sick of the "Oh, but it's SOOOOOOOOO difficult to figure out who the good teachers are!" attitude. Any DUer who is a parent, and talks to the other parents in their kids' school, knows *exactly* which teachers are great, which are good, and which are terrible.

[Bucky]

81. So you want merit pay for teachers to be based on parents' gut instincts?

At some point, you have to have objective assessments, even if they do distort the big picture. They'll distort the truth a lot less than merit pay based on what a parent "knows" about "exactly which teachers are great." What you've described seems little more than a popularity contest.

[Iris]

85. I've been wondering about that as well - who would choose to be a teacher now?

[frogmarch]

87. My mom was a teacher

in the 1950s. She worked on lesson plans and corrected papers till almost midnight every night and all weekend, every weekend. We rarely had meals at the dining room table because it was her desk, and the papers on it were piled high.

Fifty years later, one of my daughters-in-law became a teacher. Same story. She worked very hard too. Time after time, she purchased books and class supplies for the students out of her own pocket because the school board wouldn't foot the bill. Her students excelled at science and history fairs because of her generosity, her seemingly boundless enthusiasm and her love of teaching. After five years of burning the candle at both ends, she stopped teaching (temporarily, she'd said) and took a nice, relaxing job in a bio-tech lab. She's still there.

Anyone who disses teachers is no friend of mine.