Pope Benedict XVI to help revive the LATIN MASS!!

[Hardrada]

He is on record now as approving of the old liturgy and will work to remove the obstacles to its use. I don't actually know how to respond to this since I was raised a Lutheran who was nonetheless interested and mystified by the old Missa Romanum (which I attended various times out of oecumenical curiosity).
Of course the dear communicants of DU are all much younger than I and have perhaps no memories of this.

[Common Sense Party]

1. Why would you have to "respond to this"? n/t

[Hardrada]

10. Nihil humanum mihi alienum est.

-Goethe.

[liberalnurse]

65. Did you say...................

"Nothing human is alien to me???????????" Essentially??? :hide:

[Hardrada]

79. Yeah. Be open to experience pretty much.

Don't prejudge people. A good liberal maxim.

[Jed Dilligan]

73. I thought it was Marx?

Possibly quoting Terence?

[Hardrada]

78. Chico?

[frankenforpres]

2. im for it

you will be able to go to mass anywhere in the world and be able to follow along completely


i dont think it needs to be all masses, but at least 1 or 2 on the weekend

[Erika]

5. Are they going to give you prayer rugs also?

This is the garbage that turns off people to religion.

[Rage for Order]

56. How is it "garbage"?

The pope has received feedback that shows members of the church are interested in the tradition of mass being done in latin, and he's recommending that the churches have a couple of services in latin each week. I fail to see how that is either garbage or turning people off from religion. Your respect for other people's faith is truly an inspiration! :sarcasm:

[ima_sinnic]

70. she might be saying, the mindless ritual kind of thing

which is a turn-off to me, also. If it's in Latin it's just a bunch of sounds with no particular meaning (except to those fluent in Latin, which isn't a whole hell of a lot of people), but it would function as a safe, secure ritual with no thinking needed. It would be like attending some kind of staged extravaganza every week.
I grew up in a small-town Methodist church. I could easily understand the sermons, prayers, and songs and did retain many lessons from them that are part of my personna now even though I stopped believing in any kind of "divine being" eons ago. If it had just been noise and pomp it would have had a completely different effect on me, nowhere near as practical or consciousness raising.
But others are free to enjoy it, if that is their cup of tea.

[Goblinmonger]

126. Let's go back to the good old days

of Inquisitions and Crusades. Don't mock it; that's disrespectful.

[Clark2008]

110. Yes, prayer rugs are so awful.

:sarcasm:





:eyes:

Honestly, what could be offensive about that? I happen to think they're beautiful works of art.

[Hardrada]

14. Well, that was one of the arguments for keeping the Latin Rite

since it was so universal. In my own view, I think contemporary liturgical experimentation and music are not very inspiring or convincing and perhaps a more timeless approach is one answer. I am not a theist of any kind but I do have an aesthetic sense.

[hedgehog]

84. But you have to admit, it's nice to go to your own parish and be able to follow

what's going on with a guide book! We're supposed to listen, not sit there and read along.

For what it's worth, my husband had atteneded MAss in Germany, Switzerland and Korea with no difficulty.

[Erika]

3. Benedict reminds me of someone stuck in the 50's

and he should remain there. He is so pathetic.

[Canuckistanian]

37. Yeah, the 1550's

The "golden years".

[leftchick]

39. lol

thanks, so true!

[SharonAnn]

45. Maybe we can revive "The Inquisition"? Sure, let's not go forward when

we can go backward.

And then we can let priest's sons inherit their parishes and diocesses (like Jerry Fallwell's sons inherit their father's).

Wow! The Dark Ages will rise again!

Look, the Latin Mass is beautiful, but not really relevant today. There are many beautiful choral and orchestral Masses that were written by Mozart, Bach, Brahms, etc. but they're not really relevant today as far as regular church services.

The Latin Mass could be performed as a work of art, occasionally, but that's not what he has in mind.

[nadinbrzezinski]

58. The Inquistion never died

the Roman Inquisition is alive and well, just the wrost aspects of it are now not practiced.

[TankLV]

81. or how about the '30's - say Nazi Germany?

It does explain alot...

[Dr.Phool]

4. Why don't he just do Pig Latin, so us boomers can understand it?

[mahina]

6. Great!

I loved the latin mass.

[mahina]

7. But I am one of the few who understands it.

I have to think this is intended to strengthen the blind faith aspect. Stand up, sit down becauase that's what you do. Don't think, whatever you do. But for my own personal experience, I will appreciate it.

[FourScore]

112. so did my husband

He said the latin mass was so melodic that his mind would sort of transcend into a peaceful, meditative state. He said it was wonderful, and going to mass was never the same again when they changed it to english.

[TahitiNut]

8. Icanplaydominoesbetterthan youuuucannnn.

O8)

[Hardrada]

19. LOL!

[kineneb]

28. from Hubby, who went to Latin mass, before V.II

Myfatherplaysbetterchesscheckersanddominosbetterthan your father.

[Hardrada]

50. LOL!

[blm]

71. Domino Nabisco No more Shredded Wheeeeeeat.

.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OneBlueSky]

11. I actually liked the mystery of the Latin mass . . .

as a kid, it was always so . . . well . . . mysterious . . . :shrug:

not that I'd return to church, mind you . . .

(well, maybe once . . . but only if they were singing a High Mass in Gregorian chant) . . .

[Hardrada]

12. Even Lutherans like J.S. Bach set the old Missa to music.

Not to mention freemasons like W.A. Mozart!! (Or so the rumor goes).

[JVS]

18. The reason Bach wrote Mass in Latin is that it was commisioned by a Catholic

[Hardrada]

21. Yes, well. He did a good job though

I have a two LP set of it somewhere around here. Probably for the Dresden court.

[JVS]

24. The Mass belongs in the vernacular, as it is the right of the people to understand what is being...

said. Perhaps Latin might be justifiable for an international audience where no common language can be decided upon, but for regular practice it is improper to distance the spoken element of the Mass from the people's understanding. And while I'm at it the Joint Declaration of the Doctrine of Justification was a hoodwinking that the LWF should never have signed onto, and the fact that the Vatican issued a statement "interpreting" it in a manner disfavorable to the Lutheran confessions is an embarrassment to the LWF. Way to dabble in ecumenical foolishness LWF!

[Hardrada]

52. I knew some of the Lutheran ecumenicists and they were

well-meaning (some of them) but even I could see they would be getting in over their heads.

[MonkeyFunk]

59. Fortunately

the latin mass will not be required. It will be available to those who want to experience it. Catholics will still be able to attend mass in their native language.

[Posteritatis]

13. Does he want to *permit* it again, or *require* it?

The latter would be kinda silly at this point, but I'd have a hard time being bothered by the former..

[Hardrada]

16. Release the requirement that the bishops must OK diocesan useage.

That's not requiring it, of course, but a lot of people apparently miss it.

[Posteritatis]

26. Ahh; if it's up to the individual churches/congregations, I'm cool with it. (nt)

[Speck Tater]

15. Next step, bring back the Inquisition.

"It's just a pity they let the old punishments die out ... hang you by your wrists from the ceiling for a few days, I've got the chains still in my office, keep 'em well oiled in case their ever needed." --Mr. Filch

[Hardrada]

17. Cue Monty Python!

[canetoad]

23. Nah, cue Tom Leher and the Vatican Rag

[JVS]

20. Latin or Tridentine?

Language was not the only change made in Vatican II

[Hardrada]

22. Tridentine.

Or so the article intimated since the Pope has always "appreciated the beauties of the Tridentine ritual."

[JVS]

25. So the priest will be facing East?

[Hardrada]

43. I don;t know about that. Better call VAT-69 to be sure!

Seriously, I wonder how they could do that again since churches have not been designed that way for awhile.

[SharonAnn]

46. What's the difference?

[JVS]

48. The current Mass in Latin would be the Mass of Paul VI, the old one is Tridentine

You can read about the differences here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_of_Paul_VI

[blm]

69. Tridentine - see my post below - my mother was part of that movement since

the early 70s.

[Oldtimeralso]

27. Why does the priest say to the altar boys?

Dominic go frisk em

(And you thought it was going to be a sex joke!)

[mitchtv]

32. et cum Spirit 22-0

Pope's tel#

[Idioteque]

89. LOL n/t

[kineneb]

29. Gloria in excelsis Deo,

et in terra, pax hominibus voluntatis.

etc.

I know the entire Ordinary of the Mass in Latin, courtesy of studying medieval music...have sung many different versions, from chant to the late Renaissance. The lyrics scan much better than in English. Just hand out a translation sheet.

Listening suggestions: masses by Machaut, Ocheghem, Josquin des Pres, Palestrina.

music history geek /off

[mitchtv]

34. Don't forget Missa Solemnis

Requiems Mozart and Verdi, and the great B Minor Mass
I used to love those Latin hymns
St Ignatius in SF had the B minor once a year

[Hardrada]

42. I used to be in choirs which would sing various settings of the old

Missa. Not for church uses but for school competition. The traditional liturgy was not all that much changed in the Lutheran church (originally). The old ordo missae. Of course, Luther did put it in the vernacular after awhile.

[Le Taz Hot]

113. Ah, a kindred spirit.

Another music history geek here. Great suggestions for early Ordinary Mass fare.

[MrSlayer]

30. I'm totally for this.

Even though I'm an athiest/pagan and never attend church except for weddings and funerals I was raised Catholic and I think the Latin would make it more fun. People might actually have to learn something, even if it's a dead language.

[knight_of_the_star]

54. I'm of a similar sentiment

Although I wasn't raised Catholic I am pagan now and from pagan rites do understand that some theatrics, as long as they don't replace substance, are useful in creating a moving religious experience. That and Latin just sounds so impressive when its spoken and sung, like from doing Gregorian chants in choir. That and I have to learn Latin for studying history anyway so no issue there.

Dona a patri et fili et spiritu sanctu, secut erat in principio et nunc et sempre

[blm]

74. Except THIS pope wants to bring ALL the dogma back - if a family member divorces

you must not recognize them, and such. They are the strictest of the strict. They are like Dominionist fundies with even MORE rules.

Trust me - my mother joined this offshoot group in the early 70s - they believed they were PRESERVING Catholicism from the communists who infiltrated the church and relaxed the rules.


They followed a bishop who was outlawed - Lefevbre - who THIS pope worked to restore when he was still working FOR John Paul. Once JP's health started waning, Ratzo kept quietly letting Opus Dei and other banned extreme factions gain a footing.

[Clark2008]

111. You know - one could always get a divorce is a spouse

cheated - even in the Catholic religion. Sure, the priest would TRY to get the couple to stay together, but it wasn't verbotin in that circumstance.

I think people stayed together more for economic reasons that because of the Church back not too long ago - women simply didn't have as many avenues to support a family (and in those days, a LARGE family) as they do now.

[Obamarama]

31. Well, lets bring back sack cloth and ashes, and go back to selling indulgences while we're at it...

What more evidence do you need that Benedict is bent on dragging civilization back a few centuries?

[frankenforpres]

36. how does this drag civilization back??? -nt

[Obamarama]

47. This particular thing alone doesn't drag civilization back.....

On it's own, it wouldn't mean much. But given Benedict's other regressionist tactics, in my opinion it's just another indication this man wants the world to conform to an archaic ideal.

[mmonk]

33. I'm not too young. I had to learn Latin as an altar boy

so I could know when to do what. A few of us here are old timers.

[Blue_Tires]

35. now he can re-enact that scene from "The Godfather"

"Michael Francis Rizzi...Will you be baptized?"

[terrya]

38. I have a feeling this might drive people from the church.

Wasn't the point of abolishing the Latin Mass, as part of Vatican II, to make the Church more accessible to churchgoers?

[Duncan Grant]

61. Those wonderful old adherents to liberation theology are all long gone, aren't they?

My first thought was, "How does one say gay orientation is an intrinsic moral evil" in latin? It's hard to keep my cynicism in check these days. But, in any event, I bet it sounds beautiful...

Denying communion to certain politicians is probably more palatable in latin, too. Ah, how I do miss the good old days.

[nealmhughes]

40. Múnera, quæsumus, Dómine, obláta sanctífìca: et corda nostra Sancti Spíritus illustratióne emúnda.

Why it makes perfect sense, if one understands Latin! Ever notice that even Ratszinger addresses the people in Italian and not Latin? I reckon there's a reason. . .

[Orsino]

41. Just to drive home the great divide between te clergy and the laity.

Sure. "Celebrating" the mass in a language no one else in the room understands is a positive change for the better.

What a doofus. Does he expect the peasants to pack the church for what will esentially be pantomime?

[sniffa]

44. my 2 years of Latin wiLL come in handy

ok, just kidding.

[Hardrada]

49. Ite, missa est.

[RB TexLa]

51. Good, it shouldn't be every one but from time to time it's nice to have Mass in Latin

[rucky]

53. This one's for all you Ancient Romans out there! n/t

[IChing]

55. Why not go further? Speaking of tongues or before God fell Babel?

Nobody in their right mind would wish to understand
the nonsense and idiocy coming out of the
mouth of the "CHURCH" right now.


The latin thing is to make it more obscure.

Even they could not understand that they
are making the language of the coliseum
something we should understand again.


Who are the slaves? Who wants control? Who benefits by this
dictatorial edict?

Language,writing, reading and intellectual thought shall not be
in the dark ages of segregation again.

The religious plutocracy is full of shit
just like this unitary and elective presidential
dictatorship.

[Hardrada]

57. The Russian Orthodox liturgy is in Church Slavonic, not

a people's language, but no one seems to take exception to that. Just thought I'd toss that in here. How many average Americans know Hebrew and yet that's Ok for synagogue services. I don't see the difference.

[IChing]

60. A good teacher like Buddha, Jesus ,CONFUCIUS or SOCRATES

did not dwell in the hypocrisy of an ambiguity of a language
in order to create an understanding of their message.

But half were killed liked socrates or Jesus

and All of them were telling you that you can be like them.

[Hardrada]

77. The scripture readings are in the vernacular and the Bible

is not restricted to Latin anymore (and hasn't been for centuries). It is just that the liturgy has a special status in the hearts of some worshippers and a ceremonial language seems appropriate. And right now, few appear to be taking Christ's words to heart in any language. Another thing is that I WOULD like to understand Pali and Japanese & so on to read the sutras in the original.

[TrogL]

127. What we have now is a Babel

with dozens of different and grossly conflicting translations of the Bible.

Languages don't "think" the same. Latin does NOT translate well to English and Greek is even worse.

[WilliamPitt]

104. "Buddha, Jesus ,CONFUCIUS or SOCRATES"

Pashtu, Hebrew, Mandarin and Greek.

Hm. Original languages.

Imagine hearing a sermon from one of them in their original language.

Kinda like how they'd have spoken it themselves...telling you that you can be like them.

Catholicism is of Rome, as is Latin.

Seems to make sense to me.

[TankLV]

82. And the people who attend those masses understand them!

I did - but it was a hoot trying to keep ahead of the priest racing to the next page while I was trying to follow along!

Only in my case it was the Ukrainian Catholic mass - and they used the Old Slavonic or Ruthenian language - which is understandable but like the old classical High German compaired to modern German - complete with all the old spellings and pronounciations and alphabet...

And - our mass was over an hour long - because everything was said TWICE - once in Ukrainian and then again in English - whew!

[Hardrada]

83. I was at an Orthodox Easter service once!

That was quite an experience for a sedate Lutheran. I think there was a handout with both languages on it. Come to think of it, I have been at Lutheran services which have lasted at least 90 minutes (when there are a lot of announcements, special music, a baptism,communion therefore four or five extra hymns, a lengthy sermon.)It can add up quickly!

[Critters2]

94. And the Old Order Amish speak Platt Deutsch as their vernacular

(along with English), but worship in High German, which few of them understand. I think worshiping in an obscure language meets some kind of emotional need.

[Hardrada]

97. That's something I wasn't aware of. I just assumed they

would use Low (Platt) German throughout. I suppose because Luther's Bible is written in Hochdeutsch.

[JVS]

99. Hold on. The Amish are Swiss German, they don't speak Platt, which is Northern.

Their language is descended from the Allemanic dialect of German, which is a version of High German (High as in location, not as in standard) Some Mennonies speak Platt, but we're talking about the Amish. Also, I wouldn't be so sure that the Amish use Luther's translation. They're Anabaptists and might very well use the translation of Zwingli. In any case the differences between Amish Chuch-language and common language would not be an obstacle to understanding as much as say between English and Latin or German and Latin.

[Hardrada]

103. We have Mennonites here in Iowa. I should really go over

to Kalona and discover which version (s) of the Bible they do use. Are you affiliated with the ELCA by the way? There is a new (!) ELCA book of worship. I guess that's our Lutheran missal, so to speak.

[JVS]

106. No. I'm LCMS. We got our new Service Book and Hymnal in January

Mom is ELCA and it will be interesting to see how the new Hymnal goes over. People still seem pissed off about the introduction of the green book anyway. I guess I'll get to look for myself this Christmas when I visit home.

The new LCMS hymnal was a crowd-pleaser, except for the cutting of the "Let the vinyards be fruitful Lord..." canticle in favor of "what shall I render to the Lord" one, they said it was to make things easier to follow. It took settings IIa and IIb from the 1982 hymnal (identical to settings 1 and 2 in the ELCA green book) and then added the page 15 service from the 1941 Concordia hymnal, along with a couple new ones. This essentially means that no congregation should lose a setting that they're familiar with. I like the green LBW, I hope the infrequently used setting III made the change to the new hymnal.

[Hardrada]

116. My favorite setting were in the old ALC Service Book & Hymnal

which was know as the NEW RED HYMNAL and was at first none too popular in rural congregations since it dropped the intro about Biblical Inerrancy and put the "holy catholic church" in the creed and not the "holy Christian church!"

[Hardrada]

118. O and my aunt went on a few dates with Jack Preus

back in 1939 at Luther College.

[Critters2]

122. Yeah, I think that is the reason. nt

[Maru Kitteh]

114. The average American, by the definition of average is not Jewish and

the few Jewish people I have known had a good functional knowledge of Hebrew.

[xchrom]

62. i have a problem with this pope -- not the language of the mass.

HE is the problem.

his patriarchal, heavy handed, closed minded SELF.

[Endangered Specie]

63. Perhaps you could elaborate the differences?

for us younger ones. Its just speaking it in Latin instead of the local language?

[bleedingheart]

67. here is a good article...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/ritesrituals/tridentinemass_1.shtml

"Tridentine Mass
The Tridentine Mass is the old form of Mass that was authorised for use throughout the Roman Catholic Church from 1570 until it was replaced following the second Vatican Council in the 1960s.

The Tridentine Mass is also known as the 'Old Mass according to the 1962 Missal', and sometimes inaccurately called 'The Latin Mass'.


Catholic altar

In a Tridentine Mass:

everything is in Latin,
the priest conducts the liturgy facing East, leading the community who are behind him
everything happens strictly and precisely according to the rubrics (instructions)
the congregation follows the Mass in private prayer and doesn't play an active part
Before the 1960s the Tridentine Mass was never called by that name - it was simply 'The Mass'; because there was no other sort of Mass.

"

"
Why people like the Tridentine Mass:

It's a theatrical and poetic experience of great spiritual power
It has more of a sense of the mystery and the sacred
It's more clearly sacrificial than the modern Mass
It's part of a tradition of worship that's centuries old
It's always the same - there's no freedom for personal variations
The language has a brevity and power that vernacular versions don't achieve
Modern texts are often banal
Because it was the same in every country, it produced a sense of community with other Catholics worldwide
Because it's what they grew up with
Because they don't like change
Some people also feel that the modern mass downgrades the status of the priest unacceptably, and weakens the theological content of the service in order to make it more readily understood.
"

"The most obvious difference between the old Mass and the new Mass was that it promoted the use of the language of the place where the mass was being celebrated (vernacular language) rather than Latin. (Many people think that Vatican II banned the use of Latin; it didn't do that at all.)"

[Hardrada]

75. The words of the liturgy are all in Latin

The services I went to did have a short sermon in English and a hymn or two in English. I can't recall what else except possibly for some general announcements before the Mass began.

[Idioteque]

88. Here's a good video.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1872714663680800365

This is a missa cantata which is something between a high and a low mass. It's sung like a high mass with incense etc but like a low mass there is no deacon or subdeacon.

It' from an SSPX church. The SSPX are an ultra-conservative traditionalist catholic group that perform the tridentine mass without permission from Rome (unlike the FSSP and indult parishes that do have permission.)

[Hardrada]

117. Thanks! It's useful to know the variances in the grades

of the Mass.

[RPM]

64. good - alienate more people from the church...

...and further seal the doom of the institution. Brilliant.

[bleedingheart]

66. Latin Mass is beautiful, but most people prefer to understand what they are saying

so unless the Pope thinks Latin is making a comeback ...I don't get it.

[blm]

68. This is the SAME CHURCH my MOTHER belonged to - the furthest RIGHT of catholicism

and they followed an OUTLAWED BISHOP - Lefevbre. Some of you may know that name from David Brock's book because his father followed that branch of the church, too.

These people are WHACKED.

I knew Benedict was one of them - they have been working on this since late 60s. My mother joined in the early 70s and they started building their own churches OUTSIDE the official Catholic church and Pope.

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

72. The Latin Mass is beautiful AND the participants knew what was being said

because back then we all had missals in English. We brought them to church with us, we didn't depend on some cheesy pamphlet stuck in the pews in order to follow along. We knew what the priest was saying. We knew what the choir was singing. Forty-plus years since I sang in a Latin choir and I still remember the words (and meanings) to O Salutaris Hostia, Tantum Ergo and Regina Ceoli...

And I also remember, when the switch was made to English, how lead-footed were the first musical adaptations of selections like the Kyrie Eleison and the Gloria. So dull and awkward to sing in English compared with the Latin. Maybe they've written better since then - wouldn't know, haven't attended Mass in a long long time.

The Latin Mass was a transcendent experience because it allowed personal reflection and meditation. The English Mass never made me feel like I had prepared for receiving the sacrament of the Eucharist. The dumbed-down version didn't make me lose my religion, but it made the transition that much easier.

[Hardrada]

76. I think you are exactly right. You did lose the mystical aspect

when the liturgy was changed. I always have felt that when you change the liturgy you really change the religion also. I fell away from the Lutheran Church when it started to go for "contemporary" (non-liturgical more General Protestant worship) and rather amorphous "contemporary" music, (music which can never be contemporary since it can never succeed in catching up to popular so-called culture). Well, for other reasons too. At least the Pope comes out against aggressive wars. And the Lutherans dropped some really beautiful liturgical settings also and I am sad when I hear recordings of them because I know I will NEVER hear them in a church again ever. The old choir standards are being dropped too in an effort, I suppose, to keep younger members interested before they can finally get away to get out to the shopping malls. It's sort of like newspapers (which have failed society in their own unique ways) trying to get "Young People Boards" going and urging teens to send in emails or whatever about current issues.

[hedgehog]

87. I'll agree that som eof the first attempts at contemporary music were

pretty bad, but that was 30 some years ago. There is a lot of beautiful contemporary music out there now. My parish's choir sings all types of music in Latin and English.

[Retrograde]

120. listen to the Latin every day for 8 years and it begins to stick

I liked the cadences of the old Latin mass, and after following along for several years I even learned some Latin. Still know the Nicene Creed only in Latin.

However, I see other signs of recidivism with the pope, including the "priesthood knows best" attitude, which is one of the things that drove me away.

[TankLV]

80. So what - let them - it's not like the Latin Mass is teaching something against Catholic orthodoxy..

The idea of having mass said in the language of the people was so the people could fully understand what was transpiring during the mass.

If people insist on being ignorant just so they can have a certain choreographed "show", so be it - it's their loss.

Not ONE of those clamoring for the Latin mass can speak or read it I bet.

They look on the superficial "show" instead of fully participating.

I understand what transpires completely - that's why I no longer consider myself a Catholic...

It's just like the idiots who refuse to see that 911 and Iraq have NO connection at all..."Don't confuse me with the FACTS - I BELIEVE!!!!!!

[Dorian Gray]

124. That's not entirely true.

My husband loves the Latin Mass, and he can read it fluently. He studied Latin throughout high school and college, and he has even taught it. He would not want to attend Latin Mass every single time, but he loves to go once a year. I know quite a few people who have studied latin and can fully understand a Mass said in Latin. It's not like the priests say the homily in Latin.

[napi21]

85. I thought the change from the latin mass was part of Vatican II.

I'm not sure he can just overturn that.

[Idioteque]

86. I'm an atheist and I love the tridentine mass...

...it's so beautiful and mysterious. It's a shame I don't believe in God anymore.

[hedgehog]

90. The Vatican has already resolved the Latin vs. English question

by ensuring that US Catholics will be forces to use a new English translation that they can't understand!


"(St.) Jerome was a precise translator but not a literalist. He himself said,"If I translate word by word, it sounds absurd."
Liturgical translations must communicate. If liturgical language is divorced from the reality of culture, communication is impossible.....If the language of the liturgy is a stumbling block to intelligibility and proclaimability, then the principle lex orandi, lex credendi is severely compromised."

Rev. Donald Trautman, bishop of Erie PA, chairman of the US Bishop's Committee on the Liturgy
May 21, 2007b issue of America

[Hardrada]

93. If this is turned over to theologians, incidentally, it might involve

some rather frightful obscurantism.

[AnnieBW]

91. We went to a Latin Mass Wedding last summer

My husband's ultra-Catholic cousins got married in DC rather than Virginia because they wanted a Latin Mass, and their VA diocese didn't do that. So, we went with my MIL and her husband, who came up from Florida for the occasion. It was the most BORING thing I'd ever been to. I was a post-Vatican II kid, and I thought that the English Mass was a bore. :D I'd never been to a Latin Mass. I leaned over to my MIL at about 45 minutes and asked "is it over yet?" They hadn't even gotten to the Gospel yet.

Her poor husband (her second one, now deceased) was a Fundie Protestant. He was totally out of his element. Not to mention that the incense was irritating his lungs, which were cancer-ridden. He left the sanctuary, and I followed him, "just to make sure that he was okay." (He knew that I was a lapsed Catholic, but didn't know that I'm a Pagan.) It was one of the few times that we'd ever agreed on anything religious - that wedding Mass was a total BORE!!!

[hedgehog]

92. I didn't trust my memory , but several web sites confirm that before the

switch to the vernacular, both the Epistle (letters of St. Paul) and Gospel were read in Latin. No wonder so many people beieve that Catholics don't know the Bible!

I do have to say, given the use of latinate phrases in preference to Anglo-Saxon, the readings from the leters of St. Paul might just as well continue to be read out in Latin!

[Kingofalldems]

95. No, the gospel was the only thing in the Mass that was in English

as I recall. Wait! In daily Mass the gospel was in Latin, at least it wasn't read out loud. I was an altar boy for daily Mass and the priest kept his back turned most of the time.

[Hardrada]

96. That's probably right.

I have some old altar missals here and I should go check them too but they are, as you might remember, quite heavy books.

[ProudDad]

98. All that latin shit used to confuse the crap out of me

when I was a kid forced into the church and catholic schools for the first 6 years.

It's all such amazing bullshit -- designed to be confusing to the "lay person" so that that group of old white men could exploit the flock...

[Warren DeMontague]

100. It would be physically impossibe for me to care less.

I'd like to see the RC Church get its head out of its ass about birth control, but latin mass isn't a front burner for me.

[Hardrada]

101. Certainly, this issue is not of primary significance to many

but to others it has nostalgic or aesthetic value. And certainly other issues in this Forum take priority. Can't argue with that!

[Warren DeMontague]

105. I'm not Catholic---

but I have been to St. Peters, and I can certainly appreciate the grandeur even if I don't always agree with the policy. If Catholic believers find Latin Mass more stirring than when it's done the other way, hey- more power to 'em.

Probably akin to how it's just not the same for me hearing Bob sing a Jerry song. :hippie: (Pitt, you know what I'm talking about)

[WilliamPitt]

102. Awesome

A Catholic mass in Latin is lyrical.

Pater noster qui est en chaelis, sanctificado nomen tuum...

Cool.

[Hardrada]

107. Dominus vobiscum, Will.

Yes, this is an interesting development indeed. My favorite settings of the old Mass are those by Palestrina and William Byrd.

[blm]

109. Not just Latin Mass, Will. Tridentine. Research Bishop Lefevbre - he was excommunicated

because basically they are the furthest right, the extreme fundamentalists, of Catholicism, and Ratzi is proving that he is one of them.

We should have known it when Opus Dei was allowed back in to countries it had previously been banned, and when Lefevbre's legacy was posthumously rehabilitated in 2001, via Ratzi's entreaties.

It's all political. These people are true fascists. They are the type of Catholics who would have abetted Hitler. Count on it.

My mother, David Brock's father and Mel Gibson's father belonged to this group. Don't know HOW involved Brock's father was with the group, but my mother became involved about 1972 and changed from a charity-driven Catholic to a Nazi sympathizing Catholic within a few years.

[Cobalt-60]

108. I was just a sprout

But it sounded like the Padre was really doing something up there when he used Latin.
What harm could there be?

[Javaman]

115. obie oh obie es maos sub obie....nt

[CatholicEdHead]

119. Have a link?

I read the right wing Catholic World News http://www.cwnews.com and they get all wound up at even a hint of something like this. There is nothing currently on there. While there have been discussions internally there is nothing official from the Vatican on this.

[hedgehog]

121. http://ncrcafe.org/node/1113

"Motu proprio alert: Castrillon confirms ruling is coming
Posted on May 16, 2007 20:43pm CST.
Print Friendly Version

By JOHN L. ALLEN JR.
New York

The top Vatican official in charge of use of the Tridentine Mass has confirmed that Pope Benedict XVI “intends to extend to the entire church the possibility of celebrating the Mass and the sacraments according to the liturgical books promulgated by Pope John XXIII in 1962.” Those books contain the last approved version of the older "Latin Mass" celebrated prior to the Second Vatican Council (1962-65), as well as rites for sacraments such as baptism and holy orders.

The remarks from Cardinal Darío Castrillón Hoyos, President of the Ecclesia Dei Commission, came in an address to the Fifth General Conference of the Bishops of Latin America and the Caribbean. "

[Hardrada]

123. There you go.

Thanks, I didn't have that exact article.

[pingzing58]

125. The Latin Rite Church has been divided into two - never to be joined again.

As I read history, when Paul VI approved the Mass of the Latin
Rite in 1963 there were those who refused to celebrate it
(i.e., Lefebvre and Pius X organization) effectively creating
a schism in the Church.  However Paul VI refused to grant
permission to celebrate the Tridentine Rite for Mass. Enter
John Paul II and his political agenda (end of communism) and
pastoral agenda (re-Christianize Europe, re-Evangelize
Christian nations). JPII gave lots of power to such
spiritual/political movements as the Opus Dei, Missionaries of
Christ and the Neo-Catechumenal Way/Movement with his pastoral
plan in mind.  He also tried to make peace with the
Lefebvrites by permitting with the local bishop's permission
the celebration of the Tridentine Rite Mass in certain chapels
or churches.  He also tried sending then Cardinal Ratzinger to
offer Lefebvre a way out befor his death.  Ultimately the
offer was refused and Lefebvre died a schismatic.  By granting
permission for the celebration of Mass according to the
sacramentary of Pius X John Paul II split the Roman Rite.  By
continuing to strengthen this division, Pope Benedict XVI will
only embolden the schismatics.  Does he really believe that
this pastoral move will re-Christianize Europe and fill the
Catholic churches again with the faithfull?  We'll see.  I
pray for all of us.  

[Hardrada]

128. Thanks for your insight here.

I hadn't known the role of the previous pope in all of this.