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davidswanson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 11:17 AM
Original message
Don't You Know That You Can Count Me Out - In
Edited on Tue Sep-28-10 12:02 PM by davidswanson
Ted Rall's new book "The Anti-American Manifesto" advocates for violent revolution, even if we have to join with rightwingers and racists to do it, and even if we have no control over the outcome which could easily be something worse than what we've got. We have a moral duty, Rall argues, to kill some people.

Now, I much prefer a debate over what radical steps to take to a debate over whether it's really appropriate for President Obama to whine about people's lack of enthusiasm for voting. Should we try to pep people up for him or gently nudge him to appoint a new chief of staff who's not a vicious warmongering corporatist? Decisions. Decisions.

Rall's book is packed with great analysis of our current state and appropriate moral outrage. I highly recommend it for the clear-eyed survey of the tides in this giant pot of slowly boiling water where we float and kick about like frogs. To an Obama proposal to create 17,000 jobs, Rall replies:

"The U.S. economy needs to add one hundred thousand new jobs a month to keep up with population growth and keep the unemployment rate even. At this writing, in March 2010, it would require four hundred thousand new jobs each month for three years to get back to December 2007.

"Seventeen thousand jobs? Was Obama still using drugs?"

I recommend Rall's manifesto as a call to action. The only question is what action?

There, the book is much weaker. As people come to terms with the need for radical action, we need to provide them with a serious debate of the alternatives. Many will drift inevitably toward violence, unaware of any choice. To not present the alternatives, whether to argue for or against them, is less than helpful.

According to Rall, "no meaningful political change has ever taken place without violence or the credible threat of violence." And, "without violence, the powerful will never stop exploiting the weak." From these statements, scattered throughout the manifesto, one would have no idea that anyone else believed there was a third choice beyond violence or doing nothing. There is no indication here of the role of nonviolence in evicting the British from India or overthrowing the ruler of El Salvador in 1944, or even in ending Jim Crow in the United States and Apartheid in South Africa, in the popular removal of the ruler of the Philippines in 1986, in the largely nonviolent Iranian Revolution of 1979, in the dismantling of the Soviet Union in Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Czechoslovakia, and East Germany, in the resistance to a stolen election in the Ukraine in 2004-2005, and in hundreds of other examples from around the world.

Now, Rall could try to argue that many such movements have violent as well as nonviolent components. He could claim that nonviolent activism can constitute a threat of violence. That is, even though the actors themselves may prove their willingness to die rather than use violence, the understanding of those in power as well as of activists like Rall who think only in terms of violence could be that violence is being threatened. But Rall attempts no such arguments, so we don't really know what he would say.

Rall does make the following claim about U.S. political struggles: "Pacifism has been the state religion of the official Left since the end of the Vietnam War. Can it be a coincidence that progressives cannot point to a single significant political victory since the early 1970s?" It could be a coincidence, yes, or it could be that what we have lacked since the early 1970s has been serious resistance to power -- which does not answer the question of which would have been more effective and which still could be, violent or nonviolent resistance.

The two points I found most persuasive in Rall's case for violence were points he may not have intended as planks in that argument, an argument that -- again -- he does not so much make as assume. The first point is that, even as people are refraining from killing CEOs and politicians, they are not refraining from killing. In increasing numbers, they are killing themselves. They are losing their homes, their healthcare, their savings. They are being forced into debt-slavery, humiliating misery, and hopelessness, and -- for lack of any other approach -- are killing themselves. It's not clear that assassinating the powerful wouldn't make things even worse, but it is worth noting that people are killing the innocent and not the guilty.

The second point is that people are not just killing themselves. They are killing random innocents as well, former coworkers, family members, and strangers. We are perfectly capable of ending such violence. Redirecting it is not our only available option. But in contemplating violence, we are not starting from a nonviolent state.

And, of course, the impoverishment of millions of people has resulted in a shortened life expectancy in the wealthiest place on earth, a place where some are able to indulge in the greatest and most wasteful luxury ever seen. But Rall makes no argument for his root assumption that our choices are to kill people or "sit on our asses." Rall wants jobs created at a rate that approaches the actual need. He wants corporations nationalized and brought under control. He wants an end to eight-figure bonuses on Wall Street. His solution is "a hundred thousand angry New Yorkers armed with bricks (or guns)."

Now, I'm not suggesting you have to know something will go perfectly before you try it, but shouldn't you try the approach most likely to work the best? And shouldn't we know what has and has not worked before? Rall claims that the 1999 Battle of Seattle slowed corporate globalization because a few people broke a few windows. Yet, many people who were there and engaged in that struggle point to the nonviolent blocking of the streets that prevented the conference from being held, and the moral force of the broad coalition that took over the city and won allies even within the halls of corporate power. This was done despite, not because of, a few jerks smashing windows.

I share with Rall his concern that people think they have no choices and his conviction that something must be done. If it were impossible to organize committed, independent, uncorrupted nonviolent resistance with the dedication necessary to succeed, if violence were our only option, we'd certainly have to look into it. But I suspect organized violence would be even harder to bring forth than organized nonviolence. Rall attempts no argument to the contrary. He predicts a hellish nightmare with or without his violent revolution. I predict peace, sustainability, and justice if we nonviolently resist. A deeper debate is needed.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
1. It is high-time
for people to actively participate in the tactics of Gandhi and King.

Recommended.
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el_bryanto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
2. The more radical the cure the more you have to force it on people
Which is essentially what Rall is talking about. Forcing change through violence.

"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche

Suffice it to say that if Rall or his followers decide they are willing to sacrifice their fellow citizens on the alter of revolution, I will resist them.

Bryant
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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. I'm with you. There is enough suffering and violence in the world without
us contributing to it too. Didn't we learn anything from the neocons?
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
3. Ted Rall's take on Pat Tillman:
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Dr.Phool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
4. Maybe Obama should appoint Bill Ayers as his new Chief of Staff.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. lol
Edited on Tue Sep-28-10 11:46 AM by HiFructosePronSyrup
Ward Churchill, attorney general.
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pattmarty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #6
15. I probably am as "left" as one could get, but Ward Churchill was a.....
...........fucking NON INDIAN clown. He should not have been persecuted for his statement on 9/11, but I've seen him a couple of times on Cspan and other media venues and he was a CLOWN.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
5. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. So what progress are you looking to effect.
It's fine to lob verbal grenades in this general direction behind the protection of a pseudonym, but what exactly would you have us kill one another over?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Chuckling at the second item on your wish list....
teabaggers will never do anything about something they do not recognize in themselves.
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Up against the wall, eh?
Bad idea, in general.
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
10. What's interesting to me is that both the extreme right and extreme
Edited on Tue Sep-28-10 12:14 PM by MineralMan
left seem always to be hinting about revolution and drastic change. They seem to want different sorts of changes, though. Would the two revolutionary movements fight with each other over which set of ideas would be implemented? Would they somehow merge into a larger revolutionary force?

It seems to me to be extremely unlikely that either will actually do anything violent in an organized way, but it's interesting to see two revolutions-in-the-mind competing over the vast majority that wants neither of them. On the right, the erstwhile "revolutionaries" seem mostly to be aging old soldiers who want to relive their "glory days" as supply clerks. On the left, the equivalent group seems to be folks who express anti-war statements and "revolutionary" zeal in the same breath.

I think neither will actualize their thought experiments and things will go on working (or not working) in traditional political terms. There's an election in November, as there is every couple of years. What happens next depends on that, not the idle musings about "revolution." That's the American Revolution's continuation, and it happens every two years. That's the only Revolution that's needed.
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friendly_iconoclast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. And the extremists never seem to realize that most revolutions fail,
Edited on Tue Sep-28-10 02:59 PM by friendly_iconoclast
and the ones that do succeed usually end up eating their own.

Got Robespierre, Rohm, or Trotsky, anyone?
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Those who fail to learn history...and so on...
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. You are correct
you may want to read up on US history. The New Deal did not come out of thin air, but out of the revolts in mining communities earlier in the century, the march of the vets and the clear threat of violence.

And that is just the BEST, but mostly forgotten, example from US history.
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dotymed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-29-10 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #10
25. Agreed, unfortunately
Edited on Wed Sep-29-10 07:57 AM by dotymed
our voting process has been vastly corrupted. Between the electronic voting (not verifiable..:wtf: and the legalized selling of our "elected officials":party: ) real Americans don't stand a chance of electing anyone.
IMO, this is where we must start. REAL ELECTION REFORM.
IF we can accomplish that, then we can continue the "revolution" at the ballot box.
Personally, I believe that dedicated peaceful resistance is the only chance we have.
We already live in the worlds largest police state, even a peaceful resistance will be ugly. That ugliness, coming from the PTB would work in our favor.
Again, IMO,a violent rebellion would work against the type of change that most Americans are seeking.

edited for spelling
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Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
13. if I rise up against the government...
will Ted Rall have my back? You're right behind me, right Ted? Ted?
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ooglymoogly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
14. Hmmmm, what have I witnessed?
Edited on Tue Sep-28-10 01:19 PM by ooglymoogly
Stonewall was violent and it was successful. It brought immense political power to gay folks across the country and changed the landscape of police brutality in NYC.

White Nights Riots, causing hundreds of thousands of dollars of damage to city hall; Over the Mascone and Harvey Milk murders and the whitewash that followed; Rewarding their murders with a slap on the wrist to the murderer; Dan White (Twinki Defence); Was violent, culminating in the election of Dianne Feinestein as mayor; Who appointed a gay police chief, changing the entire landscape for GL forever in SF and the country; An act that keeps her in congress into perpetuity by the eternally grateful.
Now schools and public places are named after Milk and Moscone.

The more recent cold blooded murder of an innocent man in Oakland by bart police and its subsequent whitewash; Caused riots that culminated in change that is ongoing.

A fascist constabulary has gotten much better at riot control; While the pug stacked courts back their fascism to the hilt. so future riots will be severely dealt with; Which in itself will force change as did the Kent state efforts at severely controlling protests; The shooting of 13 and killing 9; Caused the impeachment of Richard Nixon, though some might argue that point even though it is well recorded in the weeds of history.
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
18. ..
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 06:24 PM
Response to Original message
19. Nevah happen - add the ability to surveil the public and the new
domestic terrorism laws and look at the recent spate of raids on leftist houses, and you have NO chance of getting a revolution off the ground.

Show me a military who won't round up the usual suspects for rendition and I'll show you a blackwater (or XE, or Say, or Way, or whatever the fuck they are calling themselves now) who will.

Maybe that's the real purpose of Blackwater.

I saw some photos of those assholes on a drug bust with the DEA in Sandy Eggo.

a private company helping the Fedgov on drug raids???

please....
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. "Maybe that's the real purpose of Blackwater." Not 'maybe'. No doubt about it!!
Katrina was the first exposure. Americans got to see a PRIVATE FUCKING ARMY patrolling the streets of an American city, and what did we do? We sat on our fat, lazy, collective asses and did nothing.

Those assholes aren't just training in SandyEggo, they're doing it here on the East Coast too. And who knows where else.

The Democrats and the Republicans have allowed this private militia run by a "christian" crusader to thrive via our tax dollars.

Bad medicine.



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Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. Who knows where else?
Hint: rhymes with "Fizzrael."
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 11:07 PM
Response to Original message
21. The tree of liberty must be refreshed time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 11:14 PM
Response to Original message
22. I'm afraid that I side with Rall
insofar as US history is concerned. Ranging from Bacon's rebellion to the threat of violence at the New Deal, and the Coal Wars earlier in the century, as well as the threat of violence of the 1960s... I agree with him.

Don't worry. Americans will continue to sit on assess until it is too late... or beyond. Propaganda has worked.

Oh and the threat of violence could be just as effective. Try organizing a strike, let alone a national strike.
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-29-10 09:09 AM
Response to Original message
26. what's he gonna do, bravely draw some more crappy cartoons?
:rofl:
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-29-10 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. Wearing combat boots....
:rofl:
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zeemike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-29-10 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
28. May I offer a solution that avoids all of that.
And that is for people to take back the land literally.
For instance...what if all the homeless people got together and went to some corporate owned mega farm and just homesteaded it.formed their own city and government and elected their own sheriff to protect them....and they declared by right of eminent domain that this land was not owned by a person and so they were taking it because they could better use it.
I know the violence would ensue but not by the homeless...they would be defending the moral right to life and could hold the moral ground in this fight.
What if those strikers at the door factory that occupied the building instead just filed in cort the necessary papers to take the property by right of eminent domain...and continued producing doors with out the financial burden of management and owners?
Our biggest failing is that we do not realize how powerful numbers are and that organized we are invincable...and because of that fact the powers that be use every trick in the book to keep us divided.
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