Do you think that President Obama will evolve in his view of gays before he leaves office?

[VMI Dem]

Will he acknowledge that he is on the wrong side of history in his view of gay marriage?

Do you think that his religiously influenced opinion on gay marriage shades his decisions with respect to other gay rights issues, such as DOMA and DADT?

Do you believe that he has lived up to his pledge of fierce advocacy for the GLBT community?


I cannot even begin to imagine how much it sucks to be a GLBT American. The party that is supposed to be on your side essentially views you as a second class citizen. You are cajoled and bullied into voting and donating and then given lip service. The leader of the party doesn't even believe you deserve basic civil rights.

The Log Cabin Republicans are fighting harder for a DADT repeal than this administration. Ted Olson is leading the way in getting Prop 8 overturned. Ted Fucking Olson? Ted Olson should be referencing the Bible on gay marriage, not our President.

This Presidents view on gay marriage and civil rights is a mark of shame on his Presidency and his character. I sincerely hope that he changes this view, both for his own sake and the sake of our fellow oppressed citizens.

[MadMaddie]

1. Here's what I think

I think he is more evolved then many grasp. I believe his game plan all along has been to have these cases work themselves through the court system. We have seen 2-3 recent cases where gay rights won. The fact that these cases are in the courts and are making headway is a major milestone.

[bliss_eternal]

2. just here to support you...!

:hug::hi:

[DURHAM D]

6. drivel

[MadMaddie]

7. So what you are saying is with his signature he should change

the law immedietly? Well that's great for what two years or 6 years and when and if a Repug President gets back in with a swipe of the pen he dismisses our rights?

Short term satisfaction does not equal long term security!

[DURHAM D]

8. straw

[MadMaddie]

9. I don't think so

If anyone thinks for a minute the Republicans are not rotten bastards and would not make this the first thing they did when they got in power they are sadly misguided. If DADT and DOMA are not rooted in law they will become a ping pong for the Republicans to play with.

[DURHAM D]

13. You either didn't read the OP or just don't like the questions.

Instead, you have changed the subject to something you can preach about.

again, drivel

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

29. You are very, very smart and understand the realities of how politics works! n/t

[muffin1]

30. Obama does NOT believe in marriage equality.

He has said on more than one occasion that he believes marriage is between a man and a woman. Because of his religion, of course.
The same religion that prohibits wearing clothes made of different fibers, that prohibits eating shellfish, that advocates women keeping their mouths shut and walking behind their husbands, that advocates killing women for not being virgins on their wedding day, blah, blah, blah. I don't see him and Michelle following any of those archaic rules. Just like 99% of Christians, they dismiss pretty much anything that they don't like to follow personally. But they sure as hell point out the homosexuality passages as GOD'S WORD.

If we can't get equality from a Harvard Law Professor, who is also black and understands FIRST HAND what discrimination does to people, I don't have much hope for ever getting it. It makes me sick. And sad that I encouraged my best friend - who is gay - to vote for him.

[girl gone mad]

42. ^^^^^^

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[Withywindle]

47. +1000!

He should also understand about marriage equality and what a crock "states' rights" is when it comes to treating human beings like human beings. If he'd been born in MY home state in 1961, he'd have been legally illegitimate (what a terrible thing to call any child, but that's how it was then) and his parents could have been arrested.

[Bluebear]

51. I grasp that he says that marriage is one man & one woman and he doesn't believe in my equality

But thanks.

[DURHAM D]

3. No.

No.
Yes.
No.

We make him uncomfortable.

What does that tell you about him?

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

32. I totally understand what you're saying, but I for one will never forget when he came to a black

church in Atlanta where I grew up and chastized the black community for its homophobia. Mind you, this is a tought crowd and I remembered the response he received.

I'm sorry. While I do understand where you're coming from and empathize (I wish he would do something to get rid of DOMA and DADT TODAY!!!), we also understand what he's facing with his detractors, his enemies, and the general American public.

I do think that the president is really for gay marriage. I truly do. I think he's politically unprepared to himself address this right now precisely because of the political environment. I think it is something that he'll be forced to do either in his last two years of his first term. I just don't think we should be willing to give up now.

[Newsjock]

4. K&R

But it wasn't enough to undo those who preceded me in this thread.

Just as DADT seemed like an almost-OK idea at the time, history will -- as you say -- acknowledge that Mr. Obama was gravely wrong on this point, regardless of whatever other accomplishments or failures he might amass.

[Radical Activist]

5. Will he change his belief that same-sex couples deserve full equal legal rights

but to give it a different name than marriage at first, and that it would only be a next step toward gay marriage? I don't know. I think your question will be more relevant when the rest of the country catches up to Obama's position and we get equal legal rights for same-sex couples.

[msanthrope]

11. Nicely done. n/t

[mitchtv]

12. er don't you mean

"Separate but Equal"?

[VMI Dem]

26. Separate but Equal. Exactly.

Don't people who excuse and justify this realize it makes him look even worse?

[EFerrari]

15. The last poll ABC took was 47% in favor, 50% opposed

which likely puts the difference in the MOE. Roughly half of the country is already on board and ahead of Washington, not the other way around.

http://www.pollingnumbers.com/poll-of-polls/gay-marriage.html

[Radical Activist]

17. I'm glad the poll numbers are getting better.

Yet, how many states have just civil union laws? When even a more liberal state like California passes Prop 8 it makes it obvious that we have a ways to go. Obama's position pulls the country in the right direction toward full equal rights.

[EFerrari]

22. Prop 8 had very little to do with California at all.

And no, Obama is not leading on this issue. That's a pretty silly claim.

[Radical Activist]

24. ??? Did it happen in some other state?

I looked it up and only fifteen states currently have some form of civil union or domestic partner law. Most of those don't offer the full legal benefits of marriage, as Obama supports. So no, the country is not ahead of Obama and he is pulling the nation in the right direction.
I agree that Obama should be in favor of calling it marriage, but I don't believe that's a reason to spin where he stands. Don't you agree that it would be a huge step forward if the entire country adopted a civil union law that included all the same legal rights as marriage?

[EFerrari]

25. Good grief. No, it would not be a huge step forward to settle

for civil unions, less than what half of the country supports any more than it was a huge step forward to settle for an insurance bail out when half of the country wanted the public option. But you can continue to snatch defeat from the jaw of victory at your leisure.

I frankly don't care what Obama thinks. He's made himself largely irrelevant to the issue.

[inna]

53. exactly. nt

[Zhade]

50. Separate but equal never is, AND I WILL NOT FUCKING SETTLE FOR LESS THAN FULL EQUALITY.

What people like you always forget is that we're not going to give up, no matter how many times our "allies" advise us to accept injustice.

[Radical Activist]

52. Good.

I would never suggest that anyone settle for less than equal rights. I do tend to see progress toward a goal as progress.

[ruggerson]

18. the country is 50/50 on marriage equality

shouldn't a Democratic President be in the 50 that's progressive and forward looking?

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

33. Exactly! Another reasoned argument! The problem is that the American people simply aren't

ready to do the right thing. We need to work to change the climate. As long as that is the prevailing issue, it will be nearly impossible for Obama to move on this.

[TBF]

41. In trying to be clever you really make Obama sound

like a fool. You're either for equal rights or you're not.

[mitchtv]

10. I don't care

Not interested in what he does or says then.If only he would just get out of the way since he isn't helping. Excepting that Easter Egg Roll of course

[108]

14. Honestly, I don't think he personally cares about ones sexuality in private,

but I think he believes he needs to keep some sort of appearance for the public, or it will be fought against that much harder

[DURHAM D]

19. "Honestly, I don't think he personally cares about ones sexuality in private"

You have absolutely nothing to base that on. A secret non-homophobe. Really?

Edit: I should of said "a closeted non-homophobe"

[MrMickeysMom]

16. I don't want to diminish the plight of the GLBT community, but-

I can't imagine what being black was like during the lead up to the 1860 elections, either. Here you had Lincoln taking what would have appeared to be the "non-committal" side of the road, yet...

History was made.

I'm sorry it takes this long, but then I'm sorry we take so long to evolve, too. That outcome sucks for the rest of the whoever shares the planet with our woefully slowly evolving asses, doesn't it?

[EFerrari]

23. I don't this this is a matter of evolution. We'll get equality when

Washington decides not to use gay marriage as a wedge any more OR when the courts do the right thing. Likely the latter because politicians don't give up issues that work for them very easily. The rest of the country is way ahead of them.

There's only something like 28% (the Bush 28%) that think gay couples shouldn't have any kind of recognition at all.

[MrMickeysMom]

36. Agree about that 28%...

... which is the same minority that seems to be recognized and bankrolled by the same 1/10th of the top 1%.

Hey, if "the rest of the country is way ahead of them"... how come they don't vote? We must really not be evolving in the right areas, we majority are quite silent where it counts.

This is the 90th anniversary of the 19th amendment, so do you think women will weigh in to show how far ahead "the rest of the country" is?

Note to self: do not hold breath waiting for women to recognize how to respond to wedge issues used in Washington.

[EFerrari]

38. The political class frames the debate and pretty much decides

what we will vote on and when. It only sometimes coincides with what we are ready to do or not as far as I can tell.

[MrMickeysMom]

40. Isn't that a fucked up marketing scheme?

That's the best way I can reckon what you theorized. Marketing plays a big role "framing the debate", and they have a network all their own run by some demented Aussy.

:-(

[LynneSin]

20. The problem isn't Obama's view on homosexuality, the problem is he's playing both sides of the fence

I think Obama, the person is probably 100% in support of gay rights. His problem is simple - as president, he tries to hard to appease both sides of the issue that he makes no one happy.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[gkhouston]

44. I think this is probably true, but the time for weaseling is over. If he wants to

have a meaningful positive legacy, he needs to strive for more than the guy who bailed out the boat, he needs to actually take a risk. So far, he's been risk-averse. I'm hoping that the midterm results will embolden him.

[depakid]

27. Short answer: Nope.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

28. Here's what I honestly and truly believe. Most Democrats who claim to want it both ways...

Suggesting that while they're for civil rights and equal rights for gays, but that it doesn't extend to gay marriage, it's a LIE! A total LIE! I think they really ARE for gay marriage but find it difficult to come out in favor of that until the country changes. I think most Democrats--Clinton, Obama, Kerry, Edwards, Gore--they ALL were against gay marriage because it's politically expedient to just claim to be for civil marriages. Only now have Bill Clinton, John Kerry, and Al Gore come out in favor of gay marriage as their political careers have settled down.

But, don't get it twisted: Hillary Clinton believes as her husband. She is not for gay marriage. So, wishing for her instead of Obama doesn't make sense. Every single one of these Democrats hold the same view about gay marriage. But, it seems that people are hold Obama to a different, higher standard, even though he wasn't responsible for putting these laws into place in the first place. They seem to be giving President Clinton a complete pass and have forgiven him for it. That really bothers me.

To President Clinton's credit, he is "now" FOR gay marriage. Well, it's all too convenient that he is. His political career is over. He left a mess for the current president to clean up and now Obama has to figure out how politically he can do what needs to be done to undo the damage.

Same with Al Gore, who now says that he is FOR fay marriage. Again, cowardice! Cowardice that those on DU and many gay/lesbian activists seem to be willing to forgive without realizing that Gore is only coming to this conclusion *AFTER* leaving political life.

The bottom line is that the Democratic Party is, by and large, a collective coward on this issue, except for those in the party who are opening for gay marriage and extending full civil rights/liberties for gay/lesbian Americans. It is more politically safe and expedient to claim to be for "civil unions" but against "gay marriage." It's a red herring that they believe helps them in elections. But it's not just about the president. The party itself needs to evolve from this. It needs to grow a spine on this issue. Attitudes towards gays/lesbians are changing. Attitudes against gay marriage are very slowly changing.

It will require some strength on the part of the president to admit that he really is FOR gay marriage, because I sincerely believe that he is but is too politically afraid to admit this. I felt the same about the Clintons, Kerry, Gore and the Democratic Party in general.

[VMI Dem]

31. How does this crazy theory work when about half the population is ok with it?

You do realize these crackpot justifications only make his views look worse?

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

34. Yes, indeed I do believe that it makes them look worse. If you would calm down and re-read what I

wrote, you'd see that I called them COWARDS!! Because that's what they are! COWARDS!!!

They believe that the country has not changed, no matter what the polls say. There are enough bigots in this country who can move things backwards. So, sure while the country is evolving on this issue, it isn't enough, in my opinion, to push for drastic, immediate change.

I'm not suggesting that it is right! I'm merely trying to understand where these folks are coming from. It's all politics! We have to work hard to continue the fight and get our politicians to do the right thing.

But we also have to face the reality of what's at stake. As a black woman who has a gay father who I love and support immensely, we both understand that change didn't just occur overnight. You work to chip away at people's ignorance. It is now heartening to see that people don't cringe when they see my dad with his partner. But that was a very long time coming!

[DURHAM D]

37. You are just typing a whole bunch of words

to try and excuse a basic lack of leadership.

Its not working.

[muffin1]

35. One thing is for sure

if Obama does not change his stance on equality before 2012, he will not get my vote. I don't give a shit who the alternative is.
There is no excuse for his inaction on this issue. NONE. He is too fucking smart to believe it's okay to discriminate against anyone.

Lead, President Obama. LEAD.

[Greyhound]

39. K&R for attempting a discussion here. n/t

[HuckleB]

43. Well, here are my short answers.

I don't think he will acknowledge that he on the wrong side of history, until he's much older, and out of office, if ever.

I don't think his religion is actually the issue. I think he is focused on what he thinks is a balance in regard to the politics of the issue. He may cite religion, but I suspect that he thinks gay marriage should be legal, etc...

No, he has not lived up to his pledge. However, I suspect that he feels that he must be cautious because the economy is killing his basic support levels. I don't think that's right, but I have to acknowledge that is probably a part of his equation.

I have no disagreement with any of your statements about Obama on these issues.

Cheers.

[Starry Messenger]

45. Probably years from now, when it is "safe".

I think he thinks the Democrats are good on this issue because they oppose the Republicans' more extreme Dominionist homophobia (much like people *here* who think they are "good" on this issue...). That's what happens when you allow your party to be constantly defined by the right-wing opposition. The further right the RW goes on this, the more "moderate" the pragmatists can be. We see the same thing happening all across the platform.

I have no idea what he meant by fierce advocacy. I always thought it was a rhetorical flourish. There are very few fierce Dems on anything, lol.

[Withywindle]

46. No, I don't. And I used to sincerely believe that he would.

I don't expect him to be a Superman with a pink triangle on his chest. I don't expect him to overturn all the bigoted laws single-handedly. I know he doesn't have that power.

I do know that he is a strong, eloquent, charismatic speaker who could certainly make his support of equality VERY clear--if he really supported it. That is a power he does have. His unwillingness to use it (unless he's at a fundraiser for Human Rights Campaign or a TV show with a largely GLBT audience, that is--I mean, use it where it counts, to the general public or Congress) speaks volumes.

A man as verbally gifted as that--well, his silence speaks pretty loudly and clearly too.

[begin_within]

48. No, because he's fueled by his belief systems, and belief systems never change.

[Zhade]

49. I hope so, probably not, yes, and HELL FUCK NO.

NT!

[elana i am]

54. he was for it before he was against it...

and no that's not a criticism per se. actually yes it is, but i think he's a chicken shit not a bigot.

i think he's way more tolerant than you seem to think he is. but i still think that a president in support of gay rights is a politically untenable position. the 3 G's + abortion, still politically untenable. but maybe that makes me an odd duck. i also think that we progressives hold views that are every bit as extreme to the general voting public as the extreme right wingers we hate. i don't like to delude myself.

[Jamastiene]

55. No, I do not.

Once someone wraps themselves in either the Bible or the flag, they never change their minds. Both the Bible and the flag are like a cloak of "you can't argue with my wrongheaded opinion now. So there!" It closes down any hope of even having any kind of debate.

So, no, I do not think he will change his mind on that.