On "punishing" the successful with higher taxes

[eridani]

You'd think that people smart enough to achieve success in business would have played Monopoly at some time in their lives. Anyone who has played knows what happens when one player eventually (and inevitabely) gets all the money. The game stops, period. Would you call it "punishment" to divide up the cash and start another game? Only if you think that continuing to play the game is a bad thing.

We have seen what happens when you deregulate finance and pursue policies for 30 years that have made 2% richer and lowered average income for everybody else. Eventually you run out of financial bubbles and people realize that they don't have much extra to spend, nor do state and local governments. There is no single winner in the economic game that our society is playing (and therefore not a total end to economic activity), but the 2% who are the only winners ought to realize that they will need to pay more to support public investment in infrastructure, or the game will slow down a lot for a very long time.

[KT2000]

1. what gets me is that

the volumes of tax codes, accountants and tax lawyers exist for the wealthy, much of it to take advantage of all the tax breaks possible. They are feeling punished over "net" income - not gross income.

[gateley]

9. Everything exists for the wealthy. I was on a cruise and bought a little locket

hand made by an artisan on Grand Cayman. I was told I didn't have to pay duty on it because it was considered Art. I bought a Roman coin there, too, and was told I didn't have to pay duty because it was considered an antique. I checked with the customs agent when we got back to the US and yep, no duty on art or antiques. Hmmmm. Who can afford to buy art and antiques (the real stuff, not souvenirs like I got) while traveling? Meanwhile my friends are sweating the number of tee shirts and rum cakes they were bring home from Jamaica. You just wonder how these exemptions get passed.

[KT2000]

11. Good example

and Grand Cayman is one small island.

[HuskiesHowls]

2. Taxes are the dues we pay, to live in the country club

called the United States.

That is paraphrased from an 1898 civics textbook.


edit to correct "fat fingers"

[niceypoo]

4. Paying your taxes is patriotic

Patriots personally sacrifice for the common good of their country. Whining about taxes and constantly worming and squirming trying to get out of paying them is non patriotic.

[EC]

10. A civics book? Teaching that is wrong...

we are paying for services...taxes are not a membership fee...

No wonder people don't realize who pays for their police, fire fighters, teachers, city planners and civil engineers, etc....


on edit: I have to add that it would cost us more if we had to pay for all of these services as private corps...

[MajorChode]

16. I wouldn't call them either

Calling it "dues" or "paying for services" implies that each person has an equal responsibility, which I don't believe. Taxes are the price we pay for our society(which includes services and everything else). If you derive more benefit from that society, you owe more to it. That's the reason progressive taxation is justified.

[niceypoo]

3. The republicans are not capitalists

Supply side economics is NOT capitalism. Capitalism is not dependent upon government largess to survive. The US survived just fine for 220 years without the Bush tax cuts and will do fine without them.

[Jackpine Radical]

5. The rich consume more government resources than the poor.

The cops & fire departments exist to protect them. 90% of court activity is business-related. The gov't licenses doctors & restricts trade in many ways that pend up profiting the rich. The rich get gov't contracts. The military protects corporate interests abroad. Etc. If you stop & look at it, the poor subsidize the rich in many ways.

[mediaman007]

8. So true!

I doubt that that the terrorists have much interest in coming to get me. They certainly don't want to attack the poor. Face it, they want after the corporations and the wealthy. That's who the military works for.

[leftstreet]

13. +1

[Daphne08]

19. True. n/t

[Mimosa]

23. WooHOO! Jackpine! n/t

[lonestarnot]

6. Gollums of the world breed too.

:puke:

[mediaman007]

7. We're on the death spiral!

Earlier today someone posted a little note about washing machines:

An American company pays its workers $20.00 an hour to produce a washing machine that is sold for $600.00.

Another company outsources its labor so the washing machine can be built for less. They then bring the washing machine to America and sell it for $600.00.

We are eating our own.

[Touchdown]

12. CEOs are not successful. Their positions and wealth are pre-ordained.

Just wanted to get that out.

[eridani]

17. True, but I was focusing on the conservative meme and how to answe it n/t

[HughBeaumont]

25. Pre-ordained no matter WHAT kind of job they end up doing.

See: Fiorina, Carly (one of several dozen).

[JHB]

14. The most powerful effect of high marginal tax rates is not the "punishment"...

...it's in changing the decisions made by people and for corporations about the things they do to get "punished" the least.

Once you're at a level where more income is just extra gravy, is it really worth it to have that work done overseas when Uncle Sam stands to take a big chunk of what you'd save in payroll? Which increases your personal wealth: maneuvers to goose the quarterly reports or slower but steadier building asset value? It made more financial sense to control your money by spreading it around -- using it for carrots instead of sticks for your work force.

In the not-too-distant past this wasn't theoretical -- it's how things actually worked.

Corporations funded divisions that weren't great profit centers themselves (may even lost money), but tax deductions and "loopholes" made them a net plus. Divisions like research laboratories, news divisions with bureaus in many places, not just a few superstars parachuting to hot spots. Worker training programs, to keep good people and develop them (can't find someone with the right skill set? Make one.)

That was the big irony of "trickle-down economics": it took away the mechanism that provided a financial incentive to actually let money trickle downward.

The top-heavy tax rates imposed a "top line" to consider in financial decisions. It was a flexible "line", more like boxing-ring ropes where the more you push against them the more they push back, but having it meant the bottom line wasn't the only thing to consider.

And this sort of "extra gravy tax" helped do all this without "government micromanaging" of business.

It had its problems -- everything does -- but it helped create widespread prosperity, not liquidate it the way we do now.

It used to be policy in this country. If supporting it makes me a socialist, then I'm an Eisenhower Socialist.

[Agony]

26. ***THIS***

[surrealAmerican]

27. Brilliant post.

We would have to go back to the tax code from before 1980 to get back to that point, though, and even if we did, it would take decades for corporations to readjust.

[jgraz]

15. They're not "successful", they're just the ones with the most money.

For some reason, we still had "successful" people when the top marginal rate was 94%.

And it's not like we're asking them to pay something disproportionate to the benefits they get. The top income earners make most of their money off of investments. That means they take a little cut from every piece of infrastructure and government in the country. When you drive to work, part of the cost of the road goes into paying the investors in your company. Without "your" road, the investors can't sit by their pools raking in cash.

We need to push back every time someone says it's "their money" that they "earned". Setting aside the fact that it's impossible to "earn" the kind of compensation these executives get, the wealthiest among us make money off of OUR labor, not theirs. It's time they paid for what they've taken.

[eridani]

18. But to get more people convinced of that--

--we have to first kick our elected Dems into selling the "public good" meme as effectively as Repubs have been selling the "less government" meme.

[jgraz]

28. The media ain't gonna do it

We need to repeat this at every opportunity, on every internet forum. New memes travel fast these days.

[spinbaby]

20. The way my husband put it the other night was...

...Republicans are the pro robber baron party. That about sums it up.

[Dappleganger]

29. That would make an awesome bumper sticker...

"Vote for the Robber Baron Party!"

[quaker bill]

21. Taxes are not a punishment

we use prisons for that.

Taxes are the dues you pay to live in a civilized society, where the roads and utilities work, the water is safe to drink (mostly), the sewage gets treated, people don't live by salvaging from landfills, kids get a public education, highways and railways are constructed and maintained, the markets and currency are kept roughly stable, law enforcement and fire protection respond to your calls, food is tested for safety (at some level), the garbage gets picked up, and such.

There are plenty of places in the world where taxes are far lower and some to all of these things are missing. Folks who desire a more Galt-like existence are welcome to try it out. Afghanistan could be a good place to start, despite our efforts there is apparently not all that much government there.

[raccoon]

30. This is great and I want to repeat it:

Taxes are the dues you pay to live in a civilized society, where the roads and utilities work, the water is safe to drink (mostly), the sewage gets treated, people don't live by salvaging from landfills, kids get a public education, highways and railways are constructed and maintained, the markets and currency are kept roughly stable, law enforcement and fire protection respond to your calls, food is tested for safety (at some level), the garbage gets picked up, and such.

[quaker bill]

32. The truth

when plainly stated can sound profound. It is not really all that profound, it is just the truth. Feel free to repeat as often as you like, we all should.

[DailyGrind51]

22. Punishing the Bernie Madoffs of Wall Street?

THEY received bail-outs and bonuses, what did WE get?

[unblock]

24. the ultra-rich didn't become ultra-rich by thinking generously of other people

their "smarts" extend only to the uncanny ability to figure out how to make money accumulate in their pockets at the expense of others. this is fundamentally at odds with any sense of fairness, which is why an attitude like warren buffett's ("tax my class more") is such a rarity.

[OnionPatch]

31. You're absolutely right, but there is another reason they need to ante up.

Rich, white Republicans are the ones who were cheer-leading for these wars and calling everyone against them "traitors". Well, they got their wars and they need to pay for them. It's nuts to think they can start a war and not pay for it.