Some extreme anti-smoking advocates need to get a life

[theHandpuppet]

There are times such as these that even good causes are made to look ridiculous.

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20100930/SPT04/10010340/Smoking-complaints-for-Reds-cigars

Cincinnati Reds' celebration cigars bring smoking complaints
By Jane Prendergast • [e-mail] • September 30, 2010

The Cincinnati Health Department will investigate the Cincinnati Reds for violations of the state smoking ban after people complained players smoked cigars indoors while celebrating their National League Central Division title Tuesday night.

A lot of players could be seen on TV smoking the cigars, and Reds owner Bob Castellini was passing them out. But video doesn't affect the investigation - the health inspector has to actually see someone smoking, said Rocky Merz, health department spokesman.

Five people called a statewide smoking ban complaint hotline, Merz said. Those complaints were sent to the city health department today for investigation. Castellini will get letter soon notifying him of the alleged violation....

[Mimosa]

1. Really. ITA. n/t

[callous taoboy]

2. extreme anti-smoking advocates need to get a life... Are you trying to be funny?

[theHandpuppet]

3. Nope

My subject header might seem like an ironic play on words, I'll grant you. But instances such as the one I just cited make an otherwise good cause look foolish.

Funny no one objected to a clubhouse full of guys guzzling bottles of champagne and then getting in their cars to drive home.

[Javaman]

22. Actually, I do complain about that. And have written to the

NY Yankee foundation regarding it.

[SidDithers]

30. Yup. Ironic headline alert...

Good catch.

Sid

[Honeycombe8]

145. I agree: Extreme anti-smoking folks need to get a life. This was a special occasion.

Not a "he's smoking indoors at his desk all day, every day" situation.

Illegal? Maybe. Should people have been tolerant on that one occasion? Yeah, I think so. No one's health is going to be damaged from half an hour of indoor cigar smoke once a year.

If only the people who got fired up about things like that would get as fired up about car emmissions, factories spewing smoke into the air 365 days a year all day, building environmental hazards, chemicals in the workplace that we have to live with (like chemical cleaning products, whatever drywall is made of, etc.). These are the sorts of things that really cause health damage. Exposure every day, all day, for years on end. I have never heard a person who screams about someone smoking outside by the building door also scream about all the other pollutants s/he just experienced for 8 hours indoors.

It was very effective PR campaign...the anti-smoking campaign. People fell for it. Yes, it's harmful. But it's one of a million harmful things. Obesity is causing more harm these days.

(Note: I am a reformed smoker and a health nut. But I'm a person with some toleration and common sense...and I don't tend to fall for PR campaigns.)

[Hannah Bell]

4. seriously. it's some kind of moral obsession, like anti-sex crusaders.

[Nye Bevan]

24. For me it's no more of a moral issue than farting.

I don't care if people spend their entire day farting or smoking. So long as I don't have to smell it.

[Hannah Bell]

49. then you're not who i'm talking about.

[prolesunited]

63. Yes, as an asthmatic who wants to be able to breathe

outside of my home, I'm *just* like an ant-sex crusade.

I don't care how much you smoke in your own home -- as long as it's not a building with a shared ventilation system -- but my right to breathe life-sustaining clean air supersedes anyone's right to pollute it.

Sex doesn't affect my ability to live. Smoking does.

[Hannah Bell]

78. i didn't realize seeing jocks smoke on tv could trigger asthma. who knew?

[Zanzobar]

143. The next time you get a breath of clean air, call me!

I'd love to take a trip to whatever planet you're on.

[sabrina 1]

66. Yep, they are rabid, some of them ~

[rexcat]

83. For the reason why smoking in the locker room at the Cincinnati stadium...

is wrong please see post #82. You should really know the issue before you put your foot in your oral cavity.

[Warren Stupidity]

5. OMFG I AM SO OUTRAGED BY THIS

oh wait, I don't actually give a shit.

[Zoeisright]

6. Grow up.

Keep your stinking pollution in your own body and I don't care if you burst into flame. I am sick to death of smokers who think they have the right to blow that toxic shit around. Do you know what an asthma attack brought on by cigarette poison feels like? God, I hate smokers.

[taterguy]

7. The feeling is mutual

Unless you're one of those consistent anti-toxin types who doesn't do anything that has an adverse impact on anyone else.

Oh wait, that would be impossible.

So we're just arguing over degree of annoyance.

Pardon me, I'm about to go enjoy a cigarette before choking on exhaust fumes while I bike to work.

:toast:

[MH1]

45. +1

and, as a non-smoker, I hate when smokers stand in front of a building entrance and create a cloud so I have to hold my breath when walking in.

but c'mon, cigars during a victory celebration in a clubhouse?

and I agree with your point about exhaust fumes. Not to mention probably fearing for your life generally to even ride a bike on many streets.

[name not needed]

79. Took the words right out of my mouth.

[rexcat]

84. Obviously you don't know the facts concerning the state of Ohio...

It is illegal to smoke in an indoor workplace in the state of Ohio. The locker room at the Great American Ball Park, in Cincinnati OH, is considered a workplace. If you don't like our laws don't come to Ohio. We won't miss you because we really don't like people to come to our State and break our laws.

[taterguy]

93. No worries. I'm not planning any trips to Ohio

I was merely pointing out how annoying anti-smokers can be. Ya know, the ones that post seven times that a law has been broken, as if we didn't hear you the first six times you said it. And the ones who don't know that 'state' isn't capitalized.

ps: Stay the hell out of North Carolina. We export that demon weed tobacco.

NO OUTER BANKS FOR YOU!

[rexcat]

94. I go to North Carolina on business all the time...

Not somewhere I would want to move to because I prefer the superior primary and secondary public education my children receive here in Ohio as compared to any state in the southeast.

To the original point, we have non-smoking laws in Ohio and the baseball players who were smoking in the locker room were breaking the law. There seems to be irrefutable video proof of it. That is a fact and even if the people had not complained about it the State would have investigated it and levied fines on the Reds organization for allowing the players to willfully break the law. That has nothing to do with fanatic non-smokers but you seem to have a disconnect with the facts. If you tolerate people who break the laws in NC that is your business but we in Ohio have decided that smoking in an indoor workplace is wrong and has been against the law for sometime and if someone breaks the law in Ohio and is caught there are consequences.

And by the way Ohio is one of the largest producers of burly tobacco in the country but that does not mean the general population is so clueless as to tolerate smoking in the workplace, including restaurants and bars, such as some states in the southeast still do!

[Name removed]

95. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[theHandpuppet]

8. I guess you just made my point

I'm sure you could smell those celebratory cigars in the Cincinnati clubhouse all the way to Minnesota. I'm sorry you suffer with asthma and I actually support laws banning smoking in public places. But getting outraged because some players in a clubhouse celebrate with champagne and cigars isn't something i'm going to be up in arms about.

And you don't have to lecture me about asthma. My brother is on disability because he developed life-threatening asthma from years of breathing diesel fumes while work on the RR. Do you drive?

[Javaman]

21. So you are okay then with other people in that same locker room

who maybe allergic to cig smoke , such as I am, or just don't like it or don't smoke themselves, inhaling those fumes, the way your brother inhaled diesel fumes?

The law is the law or are you okay with people puffing up in waiting rooms, elevators or other closed quartered areas as well?

wow.

[dogday]

114. I have COPD from years of smoking, yet when someone lights up

I just leave. I can remove myself from the smoke as much as the smoke can be removed from me. This entitlement shit works both ways. Don't want to deal with it, remove yourself from it, I do. It is also called manners.

Now if it is so important I can't remove myself then I politely explain to the person what is going on, and I have never had one say they would not put their cig out. All it takes is some manners and working with others.

[ReverendDeuce]

9. Attitudes like that are part of the problem...

n/t

[Javaman]

46. And telling people to "get a life" is better? nt

[TreasonousBastard]

10. Right on! I'm diabetic and nobody knows the neuropathy and circulatory problems...

I've seen. And the kidney failure I fear.

Cakes, pies, potatoes, and pasta MUST be declared illegal.

All pastry chefs must die.

[Lilith Velkor]

11. LOL

[gratuitous]

42. So someone else eating a piece of pie near you could cause a diabetic coma?

I've never seen that! You should contact a medical journal and get your case written up. The first-ever instance of a sugar-contact diabetic coma.

On the other hand, until tobacco smoke is as fully contained for the consumer as the sugar from a slice of pie, and the law says that there's no smoking in public buildings, then I'd have to say that the baseball players are in violation of the law, and should be subject to the appropriate sanction.

[TreasonousBastard]

74. Just like watching some guys smoking cigars on TV could throw you into convulsions.

[proud2BlibKansan]

12. Sounds like you're the one who needs to grow up

Or maybe grow a pair.

[RainDog]

13. you might want to try smoking pot (upon a doctor's rec)

it is a bronchial dilator that, counter-intuitively, opens bronchial passages when inhaled.

Cannabis has been used as an anti-asthmatic for centuries, in fact. It also shrinks lung tumors among cigarette smokers and acts as an inhibitor among those who smoke both.

I hope you are equally nasty toward people who drive cars because they do far more to foul the air than any cigarette smoker. In fact, that probably means you should hate yourself.

[ScreamingMeemie]

15. They probably hate you too.

:hi:

[krabigirl]

41. Yawn. Oh and no, i don't smoke.

[Honeycombe8]

144. First, It was cigars. Second, no one had an asthma attack.

It was a one-time event.

I'm a reformed smoker. And a health nut to a degree. But these frantic anti-smokers seem to take some inner frustrations out on the smoking "cause." They don't get equally upset by factory spews, car emmissions, or a number of other things, which have been shown to be far more harmful than second hand smoke outside, which is experienced for about half an hour once or twice a year.

Get a life. Toleration.

[Dash87]

14. Wait, so they smoke cigars in celebration, and people are freaking out?

:rofl:

I've never smoked and never will, but I have to agree that this sounds pretty ridiculous. lol

♥

[rexcat]

86. There appears to be a lot of people posting on this issue...

who really don't know the issues. Try looking at post #82 for an explanation of the situation. The Cincinnati Reds can receive some big fines from the state for allowing the player to break the law.

[bigwillq]

133. Hello

Welcome to DU! :hi:

[Nye Bevan]

16. I fully support the right of everyone to smoke, provided that I never have to smell it.

And that includes on the street, on the beach, by the pool, etc. Why should I have to smell disgusting stinking fumes just because someone wants to indulge in a cigarette? I enjoy having a beer or two on occasion but I don't spray my urine around at people who happen to be nearby.

[jgraz]

17. Wait... we're not supposed to spray urine at people?

Who knew? :shrug:

[pipi_k]

18. No shit! Remind me never to party with him...what a spoilsport!

Pipi, long-time urine sprayer

[immune]

20. I can't stop laughing.

:toast:

[smirkymonkey]

52. Does that mean no more projectile vomiting in a crowded bar too?

Crap,all the fun has gone out of life.

[JerseygirlCT]

73. I'm with you with the caveat that I care very much about kids smoking

and do not support any such "right" for them.

[kelly1mm]

75. Really? How about this:

I fully support the right of everyone to drive a car, provided that I never have to smell it.
And that includes on the street, on the beach, by the pool, etc. Why should I have to smell disgusting stinking fumes just because someone wants to indulge in the priviledge to drive? I enjoy having a beer or two on occasion but I don't spray my urine around at people who happen to be nearby.

[SOS]

77. Remember, all air pollution is harmless, except tobacco smoke

Automobile, truck and industrial pollution is actually good for you!
These dismal rankings for Cincinnati are caused exclusively by ball players smoking cigars:

The 25 most ozone-polluted cities:

#15: Cincinnati OH

The 25 most polluted by year-round particle pollution:

#8: Cincinnati, OH

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30476335/

[Nye Bevan]

81. I walk my kids to school along a busy street, with many cars,

and I never even notice exhaust fumes. If cigarette smoke was as unnoticeable as exhaust fumes then it wouldn't bother me.

[kelly1mm]

101. What about others that it does bother? Or, keeping with the theme:

++++I walk my kids to school along a busy street, with many people smoking outside their offices, and I never even notice cigarette smoke. If exhaust fumes were as unnoticeable as cigarette smoke then it wouldn't bother me. +++++

Isn't someone with those sensitivities as worthy of consideration (meaning banning the privilege of driving in public to help clean the air we breathe) as you?

[Nye Bevan]

105. I've never met anyone with those sensitivities (nt)

[kelly1mm]

113. Assuming there is one, would you say there right to breathe clean

air should mean everyone's priviledge to drive should be eliminated? Or, even better, should people be banned from wearing perfume/cologne in public places? Surely you have heard at least of people being sensitive to perfume/cologne. Should their right to clean air be as respected as yours?

[SOS]

116. They exist and they are dying

Automobile exhaust is literally killing people who live near a highway.
By the thousands.
But who cares? Americans like cars.

As noted above, both the Six-Cities Study and the American Cancer Society (ACS) Study found associations between PM and lung cancer. Follow-up studies using the ACS cohort and the Six-Studies cohort that controlled for smoking and other risk factors also demonstrated significant associations between PM and lung cancer. The original studies were subject to intensive replication, validation, and re-analysis which confirmed the original findings.

http://www.ehjournal.net/content/6/1/23

Conclusions: The subjects living in areas with high levels of air pollution showed higher prevalence rates of respiratory symptoms and a larger decrease of FEV1 compared with those living in areas with low levels of air pollution.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1740751/

[LanternWaste]

137. Cost/benefit analysis.

"smell disgusting stinking fumes just because someone wants to indulge in the priviledge (sic) to drive?..."

Cost/benefit analysis. Remove smokes from culture and there's no fundamental change. Remove autos from out culture and, well... there's a direct and negative impact to the lives and livelihoods of the vast majority of inhabitants of western culture.

[Javaman]

19. What of the players, in that same locker room, that don't smoke?

fuck them?

The law is the law. Sorry if that pisses you off.

[Elwood P Dowd]

23. I don't think you understand.

Celebrating a championship by puffing on cigars and spraying champaign in the locker room is a tradition that's been in professional sports for almost 100 years. 99% of the players are not smokers, but almost all of them enjoy blowing the cigar smoke for a few minutes after a major championship. What are smoking nazis going to outlaw next?

[hayu_lol]

25. In answer to post #16...

your problems are solved. All you have to do is quit breathing for about 10 minutes. You'll never be bothered again--guaranteed.

Wait until pot smoke inundates the air we all breathe.

[RainDog]

26. hysterical much?

LOL.

[LanternWaste]

138. Almost as hysterical as the use of...

Almost as hysterical as the use of "smoking nazi" is... :shrug:

[Javaman]

27. So inhaling pollution is a tradition?

right, go with that.

:eyes:

Sometimes traditions go away...for a reason.

[Elwood P Dowd]

34. Sure is, and the players love it.

However, I'm sure the smoking nazis will keep pushing until it becomes a felony. After the smoking is outlawed, the alcohol nazis will then stop the champaign celebration.

[Javaman]

37. ?

you're response doesn't even make a wit of sense.

I'm not a smoking "nazi" thank you very much. I'm a clean air "nazi".

[Kievan Rus]

36. One simple question: are you pro-choice?

Do you think it's repugnant if somebody tells a woman what she can and can't do with their reproductive issues? I certainly do and hope you do too.

As far as I'm concerned, if consenting adults want to smoke in a private setting, let them. I could understand your position if they were doing it in a restaurant or out on the field. But the team locker room is closed to the public. I don't get what the issue is here.

The health and safety paternalists are just as bad as the anti-choicers in my book. "My body, my choice," goes beyond abortion. Don't like smoking? Fine. Don't patronize places that allow it! Don't like foods with trans fat in them? Fine. Don't eat them!

The health and safety paternalists on the left are a great recruting tool for the GOP, especially its libertarian wing. I know a few young people that are otherwise socially liberal and are accepting of people of different races, religions and sexual orientation, but are Republican because they can't stand some of the paternalists on the left. I've had to tell them more than once that all liberals aren't like that.

Now that the health and safety extremists are going after the Cincinatti Reds, I think I've found which team I'm going to be rooting for in this year's MLB playoffs.

[Javaman]

38. So you are comparing the right of woman to choose what she wants to do with her body to

someones privilege to smoke?

Nice try, not going to work.

If you give birth to cigars and cigarettes, get back to me.

Last time I checked, it's recommended that women DON'T smoke when pregnant.

[Kievan Rus]

44. There is moral equivalency

What's the difference between health and safety paternalists telling people they can't smoke in a private setting, and patriarchalists wanting to tell women that they can't get an abortion or use birth control? There isn't any. Both are cases of overzealous people simply wanting to control other people's lives.

I understand banning smoking in public settings. However, a team locker room is a PRIVATE setting. I still don't understand what the big deal is here.

For the record, I don't like smoking, either. However, my solution is simple: I don't smoke and don't go to places that allow it.

If you don't like smoking, there's a simple solution. Don't smoke, and don't patronize places that permit it. You have no more right to tell a consenting adult that they can't smoke in a private setting than to tell a woman she can't get an abortion.

[Javaman]

50. you can argue as much as you want. it won't hold water.

I wouldn't use this as a tactic. It's not going to win you any sympathy.

Try something else.

A better tactic would be driving or something else that is a privilege.

Using pro-choice as an argument is fail from the start. Just not going to work.

Even if you try to argue from a moral point of view, trying to separate it from the larger issue is virtually impossible.

One involves the intrinsic nature of humanity aka birth, while smoking is neither intrinsic to humanity nor a morally defensible position to use as your starting point, because we don't need to smoke to live. (although some smokers may disagree with that LOL)

People smoke, it's not a natural right. It, like driving, is a privilege.

Try again.

[prolesunited]

65. You need to take a logic class

FAIL

[AlabamaLibrul]

47. (Assuming that the players are dumb enough to inhale a cigar) n/t

[Mike Marble]

59. You need a better outlet for your outrage.

[Javaman]

72. you haven't been around here long enough to...

even know what rage is. LOL

You haven't seen nothing. I'm more amused by these half assed threads than anything. They pop up all the time.

I would like to call it sparing with donuts as gloves LOL

[rexcat]

89. I think your Nazi comment is way over the line...

Obviously you don't understand the issue at hand. It is illigal to smoke in an indoor workplace in Ohio. The locker room is considered a workplace and I do beleive the locker rooms at The Great American Ball Park in Cincinnati Ohio is indoors and in the state of Ohio. What part of breaking a law don't you understand. If they want to be stupid and smoke go outside!

[LTX]

57. So the players were the ones complaining?

I thought the people complaining were, like you, just a bunch of sanctimonious busy-bodies who weren't even close to the "offensive" cigars in the locker room, were utterly unaffected by the celebration, and just wanted to be sure that nobody has a good time and that the whole world lives according their rules.

[Kievan Rus]

28. I agree 100%. Anti-smoking nuts are just as bad as anti-choicers in my book.

My body, my choice goes beyond reproductive issues.

[Nye Bevan]

29. My choice is not to smell other people's second-hand smoke.

My lungs, my choice.

[RainDog]

32. again - do you drive a car? take a bus?

because the hysteria of some anti-smokers just looks like idiocy - or an attempt to pretend that if you drive you are not doing more to harm your own damn lungs than any smoker.

the hypocrisy is actually pretty funny - if the people spouting it weren't such asses so often.

[Nye Bevan]

33. Not hysteria. I just don't like the smell.

You are welcome to fart or smoke. Just not where I can smell it.

[SidDithers]

31. Alright then, it's a deal...

you don't smoke around me, and I won't force you to have an abortion.

Sid

[uncommon]

53. Except that smoking indoors effects everyone in the room, not just the smoker.

Your analogy doesn't hold water in this case. However, I do agree that efforts to ban smoking outdoors are absolutely ridiculous.

[rexcat]

82. The locker room at The Great American Ball Park in Cincinnati Ohio...

is considered a workplace. In the state of Ohio it is illegal to smoke in a workplace. Work places also includes restaurants and bars. I happen to support the law but if you think breaking the law is okay please don't come to Ohio and break our laws. It is not appreciated and we really don't want law breakers coming into our communities here in Ohio!

[rexcat]

90. So you think breaking the laws in Ohio is acceptable?

Please don't come to Ohio. We really don't like criminal types coming to our state. We have enough problems here in Ohio without more people breaking our laws. In the state of Ohio we passed a law several years ago that banned smoking in indoor workplaces. The locker rooms at The Great American Ball Park in Cincinnati OHIO are considered workplaces. What don't you understand or do you have a deficit with critical thinking?

[Jokerman]

35. Bottom Line: Were the players breaking the law?

I'm against most of the smoking bans that have been passed, mainly because I think there are better ways to accomplish the stated goals, but if I were in Ohio and subject to a law that was being openly flaunted on TV by a bunch of over-paid jocks, you can bet that I would complain.

[Iggo]

43. Exactly.

"Extreme anti-smoking advocates."

Hyperbole, much...?

[Jokerman]

48. Amazing that most of the posters on this thread don't get that.

Bringing attention to the hypocrisy or the unequal enforcement of a law can be a powerful argument against that law.

:fistbump:

[Javaman]

51. while I agree with you in principle...

the issue at hand is less about the inequality of the law than it is about rich athletes flaunting the law.

That is the issue to me.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jokerman]

69. What the fuck are you talking about?

That has got to be one of the stupidest attacks I've ever seen on DU.

[krabigirl]

39. I agree. So tired of moralizers of every stripe.

[leeroysphitz]

40. I've been "smoke-free" for 3+ years now and I STILL can't stand anti-smoking busybodies.

They don't need to get a life but keeping their sanctimonious, self-righteous noses out of another adults business would be nice...

[KansasVoter]

55. So millionaire ball players should be exempt? LOL

[Regret My New Name]

56. I wonder if anyone in the room complained or if it was only people who saw it on TV...

[kwassa]

58. It is impossible to be too extreme as an anti-smoking advocate.

There is no justification for smoking, at all. A lethal addictive drug that impacts all the non-users in the environment.

Smoking simply should be outlawed altoghether.

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kwassa]

80. You're welcome, 14 Posts

[superduperfarleft]

62. Right, because outlawing it works so well with pot and alcohol. n/t

[proteus_lives]

64. Yeah, cuz Prohibition works so well.

:eyes:

[Throd]

76. Actually, I think it is possible.

[hughee99]

85. So if there's no "non-users" in the environment to be affected

should smoking STILL be illegal because its bad for you?

[kwassa]

107. Smoking has no benefit to anyone.

Even the smoker.

it is just another drug addiction, though this one is unusually legal, grandfathered in.

[hughee99]

108. So things that don't benefit anyone should be outlawed?

Is this what your suggesting?

Caffeine, fatty foods, and pornography are also addictive but legal.

[kwassa]

110. Things that kill 440,000 Americans every year should be banned.

Don't you think?

[hughee99]

111. What about unhealthy, fatty food?

Coronary heart disease kills at least that many.

[kwassa]

112. Sure, I think that would be a good idea. Ban high-fat foods.

Your analogy is poor, however, because of this essential difference: we need eat food to live. We don't need to smoke to live, and in fact smoking takes away life.

[hughee99]

115. We need to eat, we don't need to eat just anything.

So if I understand you correctly, in principle, you really are okay with banning things that are bad for people.

[kwassa]

117. Why should I pay high health premiums for somebody else's self-destructive behavior?

Many diseases are preventable or can be seriously reduced, through lifestyle changes.

You are, however, attempting to draw me into an extremely simplistic argument. I am into banning some things that are bad for people, when they have no other social benefit or supply an important social need.

[hughee99]

118. I'm trying to find out if you're willing to make a philosophical exception

for a bad habit you have a particular issue with, or if you are consistent in your belief that it's the government's place to decide for people what they can and can't do.

And is your issue REALLY that you won't want to pay higher premiums for someone else's destructive behavior, because it sounds to me a lot like if it didn't cost you a dime extra, you'd still favor banning it.

[kwassa]

119. You are barking up the wrong tree.

What I am talking about are the rights of the individual versus the rights of the community. Both groups have rights, though we tend to talk only about individual rights.

I think it is the government's role to tell people, as their elected representative, what they can and cannot do IF it impacts the health and well-being of the remainder of the community.

And, no, I have no problem with people killing themselves as long as it doesn't have a negative impact on the rest of us who don't participate.

[hughee99]

121. Well then, would you be willing to concede that it is possible

for someone to smoke in such a manner that their smoke does not "impact the health and well-being" of the rest of the community, like in the privacy of their own home, if they live alone, in the country, a mile from the nearest neighbor?

[kwassa]

122. but when they develop lung cancer or emphysema ...

that impacts health insurance rates each one of us pays, ultimately.

[hughee99]

123. So it comes down to dollars and cents being more important than personal freedom?

Perhaps we need to stop people from engaging in all sorts of "high risk" behavior because it will impact our health, life, or property insurance rates.

My brother, a freeper, has suggested that the "secret plan" that Democrats have is to get government more involved in health care specifically so they would have justification to tell people what they can and can't do with their lives because it will save money.

I said that I can't imagine any scenario in which a true progressive would, when discussing health care, suggest that the "bottom line" would trump personal freedom. Perhaps I was wrong about that.

[kwassa]

124. no, it is about the rights of the community versus the rights of the individual

When personal freedom infringes on other people's rights, then some type of judgment needs to be made about it. You apparently don't believe that communities have rights.

[hughee99]

125. Does money = rights?

If someone's personal freedom results in you maybe having to pay a little more for insurance, are they infringing on your "freedom"?

[kwassa]

126. Is irresponsibility a right? Or does freedom come with responsibility?

I don't think I should have to pay for someone else's irresponsibility. They can be just as free as they want, and I can be freed from paying for it.

[hughee99]

128. I have a number of family members who feel exactly as you do.

Though usually they're discussing government social programs, single mothers receiving assistance, programs for drug-addicts, etc...

[kwassa]

129. You don't understand my argument.

as I see by your responses.

[hughee99]

131. Self Delete, Dupe. n/t

[hughee99]

132. I understand your argument just fine.

I just think you're not realizing that the logic you apply to this specific situation is strikingly similar to the logic that freepers apply to other situations.

[kwassa]

139. but you don't contest the logic ...

you just try to compare me to a freeper.

Doesn't work.

[hughee99]

141. I'm just making sure I'm clear on where you are.

Personally, there seem to be a lot of "progressive" positions that hold this logic invalid. You're suggesting that we have no responsibility to help those who may be in a bad spot because of what might be related to a series of bad choices, like AIDS patients, the poor, drug addicts, single parents, the homeless, etc... and in fact, to make us pay to help them out is depriving the community of our "rights". To me, you seem to be pointing to an individual's responsibilities toward the community, while ignoring the community's responsibility toward the individual.

[Kievan Rus]

127. So you think the common good always trumps individual liberty?

You know who else thinks (or thought) that way?

Mullah Mohammed Omar
Kim Jong-il
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad
Adolf Hitler
Benito Mussolini
Vladimir Lenin
Joseph Stalin
Josip Broz Tito
Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini
Fransico Franco
Mao Tse-Tung
Saddam Hussein

I'm of the belief that as long as somebody's personal choices aren't directly harming another individual, then the community has no say in their own lives.

The common good does not always trump personal liberty.

[kwassa]

130. You are too funny.

You comparing me to these guys is exactly like Glenn Beck comparing Obama to Hitler.

What lunacy.

this second part I pretty much agree with.

I'm of the belief that as long as somebody's personal choices aren't directly harming another individual, then the community has no say in their own lives.

The common good does not always trump personal liberty.

I think we would disagree on what harm is direct harm, but aside from that, I agree.

Was your answer written by two different people?

[Kievan Rus]

134. I don't get how consenting adults smoking in a private setting is harmful to others

I certainly understand banning smoking in public spaces, restaurants and most workplaces.

From a personal perspective, I abhor smoking. Yet, if consenting adults want to smoke in a private residence or at a privately-owned business that has been properly licensed lets its patrons smoke, I think the government has no right to tell them to stop. If you don't like smoking, then don't smoke. If you don't like businesses that permit smoking, don't give them your business.

Consenting adults smoking in a private setting does nothing to adversly affect the common good, in my honest opinion.

[kwassa]

140. Consenting adults in a private business?

I don't think any business that deals with the public, which is all of them, should allow smoking. Thankfully, none of them do, in this state. Smoking is a public health threat.

Smoking in a private residence, while a threat to those who do it, probably is a matter of consent, so long as there are no children present. If there are minors there, it is a whole different story.

[Mike Marble]

96. Ah, the Ugly Prohibitionist rears his head.

Do you have enough prisons for all the criminals you would have to detain?

[The Straight Story]

98. Yes there is. And besides, it involves PERSONAL choice., Don't like it, screw you. (nt)

[kwassa]

109. but you didn't tell me what the argument is. Suicide is painless?

[DatManFromNawlins]

103. I'll stop smoking when you stop breathing

All your hot air is choking the life out of people with common sense.

[kwassa]

106. Common sense? Smokers don't use it, really.

Speaking as a smoker who quit.

in 1984.

it is a drug addiction, nothing more, nothing less.

There is no rational argument in favor of smoking.

[JuniperLea]

61. Getting isn't the point... preserving is the issue here...

Smokers should be allowed to smoke only in controlled environments that do not impinge on the rights of others to not breath in the heinous toxins.

Smokers have no right to ram their smoke down other people's lungs.

If you want to smoke, fine... knock yourself out. What you cannot do is force me to smoke too.

[cynatnite]

67. I don't have a problem with this...

People will smoke if they want to bad enough, but I should have a choice whether or not I want to be around it.

I used to smoke and it was a bitch to quit. Being around smokers won't make me want to smoke, but the smell is just so awful and I've already done enough damage to my body as a result of my poor judgement and addiction.

I want the choice and I resent anyone who feels the need to inflict their addiction on me.

[EstimatedProphet]

68. I want to make sure I understand this...

What you're saying is that the people who complained were nowhere near where this actually happened, right? This was seen on TV, not in person?

It's one thing IMO if people that were there complained. That I get. That I support completely. No one should have to be around smoke in a restricted space if they don't want to. But if the people weren't there in the first place, then why the outrage? If the players actually wanted to be part of this, and they were the only ones there, then why should someone not involved in it at all become involved in it at all? How is this any different than, as an example, someone complaining about someone else smoking in their own house while on ChatRoulette? I'm not sure I get the difference.

[rexcat]

91. In Ohio it is illegal to smoke in indoor workplaces...

The locker rooms in The Great American Ball Park in Cincinnati, OH are considered workplaces, as are office buildings, restaurants and bars. Every person who smoked in that locker room violated Ohio law. If it was on tape every infraction can me fined and the Cincinnati Reds organization is responsible and could be fined for each infraction, not the stupid jocks. So before you make comment on a topic may I ask you to get to know the facts before you react.

[EstimatedProphet]

99. Really?

Everyone who has ever sped on a highway has violated the law. Every person who has ever jaywalked has broken the law. Someone who reports those things to the police just because they observed them is considered a busybody, by police as well as almost everyone else - except, apparently, you. So before you decide to be a smarmy prick and call people out just because they dare to ask questions they you in your self-superior smug opinion think are unworthy just because you disagree with them, perhaps you should shut the fuck up.

[rexcat]

100. The point I was trying to make and I did not get through your...

rather thick cranium was in Ohio we take the ban on smoking very seriously. There have been a lot of violators of the law in Ohio since the ban was put into place in 2006 and smoking in the workplace, restaurants and bars needs to stop. Personally I don't care if they were smoking in the locker room but smoking and athletics, IMO, does not mix well. It is also not good because some kids look up to these athletes as role models.

Your foul language must indicate that you may have a maturity issue or an anger management issue that might require professional help. All I was saying is look at the facts, just don't react to something you have no real understanding of until you research the issue thoroughly and before you make silly comments that might make you look less than smart!

[HuckleB]

70. Come on, it was just a few Cardinals fans trying to stir up %#@&.

[PopSixSquish]

71. Oh for the Love of God

The people who called and complained were watching the celebration ON THE TV!!! They were not in the clubhouse, they were not smelling the smoke and they were not effected in any way.

It's been 15 FUCKING YEARS since the Big Red Machine went to the playoffs and if the owner wants to light one up in celebration IN THE CLUBHOUSE, let him!

Sweet Jeebus!

[rexcat]

92. I don't think god had anything to do with it...

and secondly, it is illegal to smoke in indoor workplaces in the state of Ohio and The Great American Ball Park is located in Ohio and the locker rooms in the ball park are indoors and considered a workplace.

It might be okay to smoke in the workplace in Georgia but not here in Ohio. Please consider in the future to know the facts of a situation because someone might think you are being silly and not smart and I am sure that is not the case with you for you are a member of DU.

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

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[Swamp Rat]

88. It's been years since I smoked a cigar

but for some odd reason I would like to smoke one right now. :shrug: :D

[DatManFromNawlins]

104. The makers of the Pinar del Rio national brand have a shop on Canal St.

[The Straight Story]

97. Your body, your choice - of what bars you go to, etc. (nt)

[Orsino]

102. Perhaps one of the millions that nicotine addiction has stolen. n/t

[Lucian]

120. I don't care if people smoke, just so long as I don't have to breathe in their stinky air.

I don't want their carcinogenic smoke damaging my lungs. Just because they choose to damage their lungs doesn't mean I want to damage mine.

[JuniperLea]

135. Umm... that's what they are trying to do...

Get a life... or keep the one they were issued... that means don't make me smell, inhale, be around your smoke.

I've been clean from the nicotine for four years... I'm your worst nightmare:)

[LanternWaste]

136. I imagine both sides have their dogmatic adherents...

I imagine both sides have their dogmatic adherents who rail against "them" whilst denying their own dogmatic intolerance; hence the melodramatic (flailing?) use of the word such as nanny and nazi which so often pops up into these conversations.

[Name removed]

142. Deleted message

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