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Rachel Maddow: "I plan to scream bloody murder" if we go to war against Pakistan

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Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 10:03 AM
Original message
Rachel Maddow: "I plan to scream bloody murder" if we go to war against Pakistan
Edited on Fri Oct-01-10 10:07 AM by Enrique
edit: she said this on teevee. Watch here: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/ns/msnbc_tv-rachel_maddow_show/

http://maddowblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2010/10/01/5213537-us-test-drives-scary-new-war-in-pakistan

(....)

"This is Laos and Cambodia 1970. I don't care if people want to talk about 'AfPak' like it's a single place, about Pakistan being an extension of the existing war. What this really is, is war in another country. It is a another war -- Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan.

"No matter how much we like to say, 'Oh, we're just here to help,' you know what? They do not want us there. And so it's ultimately going to be a war, not with, but against a country that has got a government, that has got an army, that has got a population of over 160 million people, more than half the population of our country.

"They've also got a global diaspora of people from there all over the world, who, in some sense, think of their country as in a war with America. And oh, yes, Pakistan has nuclear weapons.

"What seems to be going on right now is that the U.S. officials and military leaders are testing the idea of the war in Afghanistan being expanded into Pakistan. And they're doing it quietly.

"But they're talking about it as if it's unavoidable, as if it's a natural extension of what it is we're already doing in the other war. If that is what's happening - if that is what's happening, if they're test driving, floating this idea of the war expanding into Pakistan, it is not a secret, and it is not going to be a secret. I guarantee it. I don't plan on being quiet about it. In fact, I plan on screaming bloody murder about it."
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Oceansaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
1. wooooohoooooo !!...nt
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HowHasItComeToThis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #1
73. IT IS THE GAS PIPELINE ..
ENRON KARZAI UNIOCAL AND OON AND ON
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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #73
76. it is u.s. imperialism and it is obama. nt
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-10 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #73
107. It's Lithium. IT'S IMPERIALISM. The last gasps of the American Empire.
People at home are struggling and our military budget keeps growing. We didnt learn the lesson of the Roman Empire.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-03-10 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #73
116. Yes.
It's path is to be through Afghanistan and Pakistan to India. It has to go through a heavy Pashtun area (read Taliban).
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
2. recommend
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Rhiannon12866 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 10:06 AM
Response to Original message
3. K&R! Off to The Greatest Page!
:kick:
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 10:06 AM
Response to Original message
4. K&R
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StandingInLeftField Donating Member (382 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 10:09 AM
Response to Original message
5. I may be old, but I can still march!
On Washington, that is.
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Liberal_Stalwart71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 10:13 AM
Response to Original message
6. Joe Biden was right. He has always argued that the central problem was and is...
Pakistan.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. Follow the money -- it's the Saudis.
They don't really like us any more than we like them. Some of us, however, have been very useful idiots.



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Liberal_Stalwart71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #10
20. My God. We'll be here all day dissecting the many corrupt, criminal ways of the Saudis
and their friends over at Faux and the Crawford Ranch.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. The really scary thing is that they have competition. With more popping up every day.
Nobody can keep a monopoly - particularly on corruption.
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grahamhgreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #10
58. Who bought the Bush's
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #10
65. Most of the 9/11 hijackers were of Saudi ancestry -
but no one talks about that.
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the redcoat Donating Member (510 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #65
78. How can you be so sure?
Don't forget, 7 have come forward as still being alive.

Maybe no one talks about it because the more they do, the more alarming little tidbits start to pop up.
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-10 02:12 AM
Response to Reply #78
88. 7 People who's ID and passports were used by the hijackers have popped up.
Not the same thing.

Nobody who boarded those planes is ever popping up anywhere, ever again.
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the redcoat Donating Member (510 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-10 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #88
110. That's what I'm saying.
The passports belong to people that weren't on the plane, there is no real indication of the nationality of the real hijackers.

Therefore you cannot make an assumption about the hijackers' nationality.

I was responding to a post saying "most were Saudis" to remind them that there is a big question mark next to that statement.
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-10 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #110
112. Well, we can be pretty sure none were suspected of being Iraqi
or we would have been beaten about the head and neck with it in the pre-invasion lie fest.
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the redcoat Donating Member (510 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-03-10 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #112
115. Haha, Amen!
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-10 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #78
102. Well personally I'm not even sure it wasn't an inside job -
I am going with what they reported "officially" so as not to get this thread dumped into the dungeon.
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Chulanowa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #6
52. Joe Biden is a dumbass on that score
Edited on Fri Oct-01-10 04:37 PM by Chulanowa
The only "problem" that Pakistan poses is that it has a weak government that is not totally able to secure its border with Afghanistan. Not that anyone could secure that border, at any rate; might as well be the moon.

I'm with Rachel, and Biden can go fuck himself.
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #52
69. What exactly did Biden say? Thanks. nt
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-03-10 06:51 AM
Response to Reply #69
119. Here's what Joe Biden said on October 3 2001. It's a real shame his "bold proposal" never happened
Video: http://www.c-spanvideo.org/videoLibrary/clip.php?appid=596279065

Transcript:

Mr. BIDEN. Mr. President, I rise to speak in a matter that is very hard to discuss these days, when we are dealing with the aftermath of the destruction that has been visited upon our country. I rise to speak of a matter that is at the very heart of our fight against terrorism.

Today I met with the Secretary of State, along with my Senate Foreign Relations Committee colleagues, including the occupant of the Chair, for about 2 hours. I applaud the actions of President Bush and Secretary Powell and the rest of the administration throughout this terrible crisis. I applaud what he had to say at our meeting.

Of all the topics Secretary Powell discussed with me and other members of the Foreign Relations Committee, none was more important in my view than this: We must make a bold, brave, and powerful decision to provide generous relief and reconstruction aid to the people of Afghanistan and neighboring countries, even as we move toward war. We must wage a war against the vicious thugs who attacked our nation, but we must not permit this war to be mischaracterized as a battle against the people of Afghanistan or the wider Muslim world.

If we can't make this critical distinction, all our efforts are doomed to failure. The people of Afghanistan, who are looking for a way of ridding themselves of the Taliban regime, might direct their anger at us rather than at the brutal warlords who have caused them so much misery and pain. The people of Muslim countries from Morocco to Indonesia could turn against the United States, with disastrous consequences for many years to come
--notwithstanding my belief that we will prosecute this military effort with discreet and precise efforts to minimize civilian casualties. We have already seen how those who wish us ill can portray legitimate, restrained military action as an indiscriminate attack on innocent civilians, and how such an argument can be persuasive to so many people in the Middle East. Saddam Hussein, a man who has killed far more Muslims than any American attack before, during, or since the gulf war, has depicted the United States-led actions against Iraq as an assault on Iraqi women and children, an assault on Islam. That is a guy who has killed more believers of Islam than just about anybody else--and yet he is able to put out a boldfaced lie, the lie that our soldiers have gone out of their way to hurt innocent civilians. In fact, our soldiers have always gone out of their way to avoid collateral damage to civilians, even during the height of the gulf war.

The United Nations' sanctions imposed since that time place no restrictions on the delivery of food or medicine to the people of Iraq. Quite the opposite. Yet Saddam has won the international battle. He has convinced a significant portion of the Islamic world that we are the reason the people of Iraq do not have food and medicine in sufficient supply. It is Saddam who is starving his own people, deliberately sitting on billions of oil dollars earmarked for humanitarian aid to the people of Iraq while he pursues his weapons of mass destruction and builds himself more palaces.

The reason I bring this up is that throughout much of the Muslim world Saddam's propaganda remains convincing. People see these images of children and their mothers scrambling for food, the footage of destroyed buildings, and they know the United States conducts bombing raids to enforce the no-fly zone and we are leading an international coalition to maintain sanctions. So they conclude, with his distinct urging, that we are not acting in accordance with U.N. resolutions and the consent of the world community, but that we are acting in the way Saddam Hussein portrays us as acting: victimizing his people, oppressing women and children, and causing great hardship.

No matter how we cut it, he has won the battle over who's at fault. If you had told me that was going to be the case after the gulf war, I would have told you that you were crazy. One of the reasons he has won is we are so accustomed in America to not beating our own chests about what we do for other people, we are so accustomed to thinking that people are going to be open minded, as we are. It is almost beyond our capacity to believe anyone could think we were responsible for those women and children and old people in Iraq starving, being malnourished, and not having adequate medical care.

It is very simple in the Muslim world right now. When America bombs, America is blamed for anything else that happens. And not just blamed for what we have done, but we are blamed for what we have not done. It is not fair, but it is the fact. As the world's only superpower, we receive a lot of misdirected blame under the best of circumstances. The nuances and subtleties of geopolitics don't get translated to the language of the street. And once the bombs start to fall, any vestige of nuance is blown away with whatever they hit.

We cannot allow what happened in Iraq to happen in Afghanistan. Osama bin Laden and the Taliban leader, Mullah Omar, have been trying to cast the current conflict in terms of religion and have been calling our efforts a crusade against Islam.

You mention the word ``crusade'' in the Middle East and it has a very different context than when we use it here. It is not accidental that the word is used by bin Laden. It conjures up several hundred years of painful history.

This is not a crusade. It is not a war against Muslims. And we cannot permit bin Laden and the Taliban to portray it as such. So how do we prevent it from happening this time? We have all said the right words. President Bush, Secretary Powell, and most Senators gathered in this Chamber have all spoken out forcefully. Our rhetoric has been fine, but if we want to convince the world's 1.6 billion Muslims of our sincerity, it will take much more than our rhetoric. It will take action, real action, to save the lives of real people.

After my long-time involvement with and strong advocacy for Muslims in Europe, whenever I go to the Balkans I can barely take a step without being reminded of this dynamic. If my name is mentioned among Muslim leaders, I am thanked for being one of their saviors; I am thanked for being one of the people who has fought to help them--and I'm sure all those American servicemen and servicewomen over there now protecting the Muslims in the Balkans feel the same. But none of that message has gotten to the Middle East. It is ironic.

So what we need to do is back up our words with our wallets. In my view, we must do this ahead of time.

We say we have no beef with the Afghan people, and we do not. But one out of four Afghans--perhaps 7 million people--are surviving on little more than grass and locusts. We say our fight is only against the terrorists, along with their sponsors, and it is. But the people of Afghanistan have been subjected to constant warfare for the past two decades. They are looking for help, and they are looking at us.


We did not cause the terrible drought that brought so many Afghans to the brink of starvation, and we did not cause the Soviet invasion or the civil war that followed. We were interested in Afghanistan, but only when it suited our own interests.We paid attention during the 1980s, but then came down with a case of attention deficit disorder. As soon as the last Russian troops pulled out in 1989, our commitment seemed to retreat along with them. And I was here, so I share this responsibility.

The years of bloody chaos that followed were what gave rise to the Taliban. If we had not lost interest a decade ago, perhaps Afghanistan would not have turned into the swamp of terrorism and brutality that it has become.


I say this not to cast stones, because I was here. We do not need to ask who ``lost'' Afghanistan. There is more than enough blame to go around. It is not a matter of political party or ideological outlook. Nobody--Republican, Democrat, liberal, conservative--stepped up to the plate when it counted because we did not take it as seriously as it turned out to be.

It is time we all stepped up to the plate.

In fairness to the folks who were here, like me and others, the truth of the matter is we get called on from all over the world and we find ourselves responding to whatever the crisis of the moment is.

It is time to reverse more than a decade of neglect, not only for the sake of Afghanistan, but for our sake. Not only for the sake of Pakistan, which faces growing instability exacerbated by the enormous burden of sheltering millions of Afghan refugees. Not only for the sake of the Central Asian republics, all of which are threatened by chaos fomented in Kabul and Kandahar. We have to take action not merely for their sake, but for our own sake.

The tragedy of September 11 served as a stark reminder that isolation is impossible.
What happens in South and Central Asia has direct impact on what happens right here in the United States. If we ever were able to think of our nation as one buffered from far-away events, we can no longer maintain that illusion. So what can we do? Let me make this very bold proposal as to what I think we should and could do. The plight of the Afghans had reached a crisis point before September 11, and the prospect of military action has made matters even worse. The U.N. places the number of Afghan refugees at about 3 million, and in Iran at about one half that, with another million displaced within Afghanistan itself. These people are living--if one can call it that--in conditions of unspeakable deprivation. One camp in the Afghan city of Herat is locally called, quite appropriately, ``the slaughterhouse.'' The expectation of U.S. attacks has already prompted more desperate people to flee their homes, and a estimated 1.5 million may soon take to the road.

U.N. Secretary Kofi Annan has issued an appeal for $584 million to meet the needs of the Afghan refugees and displaced people, within Afghanistan and in neighboring countries. This is the amount deemed necessary to stave off disaster for the winter, which will start in Afghanistan in just a few weeks. We must back up our rhetoric with action, with something big and bold and meaningful. We can offer to foot the entire bill for keeping the Afghan people safely fed, clothed, and sheltered this winter, and that should be the beginning.

We can establish an international fund for the relief, reconstruction, and recovery of Central and Southwest Asia. We can do this through the U.N. or through a multilateral bank, but we must be in it for the long haul with the rest of the world.

The initial purpose of the fund would be to address the immediate needs of the Afghans displaced by drought and war for the next 6 months. But the fund's longer-term purpose would be to help stabilize the whole region by, as the President says, draining the swamp that Afghanistan has become.

We can kick the effort off in a way that would silence our critics in the rest of the world: a check for $1 billion, and a promise for more to come as long as the rest of the world joins us. This initial amount would be more than enough to meet all the refugees' short-term needs, and would be a credible downpayment for the long-term effort. Eventually the world community will have to pony up more billions, but there is no avoiding that now, not if we expect our words ever to carry any weight.


If anyone thinks this amount of money is too high, let me note one stark, simple and very sad statistic. The damage inflicted by the September 11 attack in economic terms alone was a minimum of several hundred billion dollars and a maximum of over $1 trillion. The cost in human life, of course, as the Presiding Officer knows, is far beyond any calculation.

The fund I propose would be a way to put some flesh on the bones, not only of the Afghan refugees, but on the international coalition that President Bush has assembled. All nations would be invited to contribute to this fund, and projects for relief and reconstruction could be carried out under the auspices of the United Nations. Countries that are leery of providing military aid against the Taliban could use this recovery fund as a means to demonstrate their commitment to the wider cause.

Money from the fund would be used for projects in several countries. In the short term, it could help front-line countries handle the social problems caused by existing refugee burdens or the expected military campaign. This would further solidify the alliance and give wavering regimes, especially Pakistan, a valuable ``deliverable'' to present to its own people.

The fund would also be used for relief efforts within Afghanistan itself. This could take several forms. It could help finance air drops of food and medical supplies. It could support on-the-ground distribution in territories held by the Northern Alliance and other friendly forces. And perhaps, most significantly, it could provide the Pashtun leaders of the south with a powerful incentive to abandon the Taliban and join the United States-led effort.

Think of the impact. Many Pashtun chiefs, including current supporters of the Taliban, are already on the fence. If the Pashtuns, who are now going hungry, saw relief aid pouring into neighboring provinces or in from the air, with their own leaders stubbornly stuck by Mullah Omar and refused such aid well, we could suddenly find ourselves with a lot of new allies. The seemingly intractable problem of forging a political consensus in Afghanistan might become a whole lot easier to solve.

A massive humanitarian relief effort will not guarantee a favorable political solution.

But it clearly is within the realm of possibility. We can establish our credibility by committing ourselves to providing this aid now, before the first bomb falls.

The funding that I propose will address not only the short-term goal, but the more important (and more difficult) longer term ones as well. Whatever we do in Afghanistan--whether it involves the commitment of military, political, or humanitarian assets--must be geared toward a long-term solution. We cannot repeat the mistakes of the past. If we think only in the short term, only of getting Bin Laden and the Taliban--which we must do, but that is not all we must do--we are just begging for greater trouble down the line.

We have a unique opportunity here and right now--a window of opportunity that will not be open forever. Now, while the attention of the country and the world is focused on this vital issue, we can create a consensus necessary to build a lasting peace in the region.

This will be a multinational, multiyear, multibillion-dollar commitment. And if we take a leading role, I am confident that other nations will follow.


Today is not the time to speak about political reconstruction of Afghanistan. The situation is extremely fluid, and delicate negotiations are in progress. This Chamber is not the appropriate place for such a sensitive discussion.

Today is also not the time to discuss all the details of the long-term economic reconstruction package for the region. Once the immediate refugee crisis is dealt with, there will be plenty of opportunity to deal with the nitty-gritty of how best to help the people in the region rebuild their lives. I will not presume to lay out a long-term agenda today. But some of the foremost items on such an agenda might include the following: Creation of secular schools, both in Pakistan and Afghanistan, to break the stranglehold of radical religious seminaries that have polluted a whole generation of Afghan boys. The Taliban movement is an outgrowth of this network of extremist seminaries, a network which has been funded by militant forces around the world and has fed off the lack of secular educational opportunities.

We can also be involved in the restoration of women's rights. The Taliban created a regime more hostile to the rights of women than any state in the whole world. Women under Taliban rule have been deprived of even the most basic of human rights. A critical element of the new school system, I should emphasize, will be providing equal education for girls and boys alike. If Afghan girls and women do not have a chance to go to school, they will never be able to have the rights they are so cruelly denied now by the Taliban.

De-mining operations: Afghanistan is the world's most heavily mined country. Clearing these mines will take time, money, and expertise. Until these fields are cleared, farmers--whether currently trapped in refugee camps or trapped by drought--cannot start farming their land.

Creation of full-scale hospitals and village medical clinics in Afghanistan and throughout the region. As in the case of schools, the absence of such services has created a void filled by radical groups.

People sometimes ask why extremist organizations have been so successful in recruiting support in the Muslim world. Let me tell you, they don't do it all by hate. Many militant groups provide valuable social services in order to gain goodwill, and then twist that goodwill to vicious ends.


Another thing we can provide is a crop substitution program for narcotics. This week, the Taliban reversed its short-lived ban on growing opium. As part of a long-term solution, we have to help the Afghan farmers find a new way to support their families. We cannot let Afghanistan resume its place as the world's No. 1 source of heroin.

Building basic infrastructure: Just as Saddam manipulated images of war in Iraq, the Taliban could have success doing the same. We have to counter this effort by drilling wells, building roads, providing technical expertise, and a whole range of development projects.

We are portrayed as bringing destruction to the region. We must fight that perception: we must prove to the world that we are not a nation of destruction, but of reconstruction.

This afternoon, the members of the Foreign Relations Committee and I had a very productive meeting with the Secretary of State. Everything I have said here today is an attempt to support Secretary Powell and President Bush in their efforts to send the world a simple message: Our fight is against terrorism--not against Islam. We oppose the Taliban not the Afghan people.

We stand ready as a great nation, as a generous nation, as a nation that has led the world in the past, a nation whose word is its bond, and we stand ready to match our words with our actions.

I thank the Chair. I yield the floor. I suggest the absence of a quorum.


Here's what actually happened...

When $4.5 billion was pledged by several countries in January 2002 to aid Afghanistan I got my hopes up that Biden's "bold proposal" had been taken seriously, but as history shows us, those hopes were in vain.

Timeline of the reconstruction efforts since the invasion: http://www.historycommons.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=afghanwar_tmln&afghanwar_tmln_us_invasion__occupation=afghanwar_tmln_economic_reconstruction

Timeline of the redirection of forces and attention to Iraq: http://www.historycommons.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=afghanwar_tmln&afghanwar_tmln_us_invasion__occupation=afghanwar_tmln_us_redirection_of_forces_to_iraq

BTW...

Here are some details on how there are now 6,000,000 children going to school there compared to less than a million boys during the Taliban reign: http://www.ungei.org/news/afghanistan_2343.html
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cpwm17 Donating Member (383 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #6
56. The problem is Washington DC
Washington has for over a century declared itself entitled to bomb and invaded any third-world country around the world.

The body count is over ten million. The number of countries overthrown (including many democracies) and dictators supported is staggering.

The US is currently committing mass murder in Pakistan. The prime problem is clearly in Washington DC.
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #56
83. And the soldiers who enable them. A little mutiny is in order. nt
Edited on Fri Oct-01-10 11:24 PM by valerief
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Larry Ogg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-10 05:41 AM
Response to Reply #56
96. I'm sure we will never know the exact number of victims to our foreign policy
of melding in other countries, overthrowing democracies, installing and supporting brutal dictators etc... And by some estimates Hitlers reign of terror pales in comparison to the United States... http://existentialistcowboy.blogspot.com/2008/03/cia-holocaust-claims-twenty-million.html">CIA Holocaust Claims Twenty Million Victims

And of course the numbers are growing...

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truth2power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #6
64. Biden is not telling the truth. It's ALL about pipelines...
Edited on Fri Oct-01-10 06:52 PM by truth2power
Ever wonder why there's so much military activity in Helmand Province? Because the proposed gas pipeline goes thru there. And continues right through Pakistan.

That's ALL it's about. I am sick and tired of all the lies.






ETA> Everything's going according to plan.

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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #64
70. What did Biden say exactly? You're the second person to say Biden is wrong,
but I sincerely don't know what you're referring to. Enlighten me!
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truth2power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #70
75. I apologize. I don't mean to act like I know something when I don't. ...
Although I did find a link to a recent Biden statement, which I'll post below.

I was responding to liberal stalwart, #6, upthread, when he said that Biden always considered Pakistan a "problem". I don't think it's a coincidence that we're concerned with rooting out terrorists in areas and countries that are in the path of the pipeline.

Here's a link to some of Biden's recent thoughts:

http://www.voanews.com/english/news/asia/US-Vice-President-Biden-Pakistan-Biggest-Security-Concern-84112382.html

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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #75
85. Thanks for that -- I went looking and got waylaid because I found an article on
a new Biography of Biden. :7

But then I found this -- it was before he became VP but could be what liberal stalwart was referring to:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joe-biden/we-need-a-pakistan-policy_b_71399.html

He makes some good, valid points so I'm glad I found it and read it again and I still think the general sentiment is pertinent.

But I so totally agree that it's not a coincidence that we find people in need of "our help" who are sitting on oceans of oil or in this case, a pipeline route, otherwise we'd be in any number of other countries who are in dire need of our aid. But as you know, he recently voiced strong opposition to a troop escalation in Afghanistan, which doesn't jibe with the pipeline path -- I think he wants out of there but is constrained now that he's in that VP slot and can't really speak out against Company Policy, as it were.

I just get so discouraged by where we are today as a country. :(

:hi:
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Martin Eden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #6
68. What PROBLEM would that be?
If Pakistan is the problem, please elaborate on what kind of problem you're talking about.

Sincerely, I'm just trying to understand the point that you (and Joe Biden) are trying to get across.
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #68
71. I'm trying to find out what it is that Biden said, too. Just trying to understand
what he's wrong about. And even though I'm a die-hard Biden-head, I do disagree with him at times, so I'm looking for some explanation as to what we're referring to here.
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Martin Eden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-10 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #71
111. There are lots of problems associated with Pakistan ...
... including problems with Pakistan's dealings with the Taliban.

But what I'm trying to get at is the problem that requires our continued military intervention in what is evidently an unwinnable FUBAR. To be sure, Pakistan has nuclear weapons and we wouldn't want those falling into the hands of jihadists -- but is that something our continued military intervention will help to forstall?

BTW, I liked Joe Biden in the 2008 primary, but I could not in good conscience vote for anyone who voted in October 2002 to give Bush authority to invade Iraq. That's why I couldn't vote for Hillary either.
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liberation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-10 03:15 AM
Response to Reply #6
90. I'd like to see Mr. Biden pointing Pakistan out of an unmarked map first, though...
Edited on Sat Oct-02-10 03:15 AM by liberation
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DeltaLitProf Donating Member (459 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-10 03:24 AM
Response to Reply #90
92. Wow.
If you think Biden is an airhead, you know nothing about Democratic politics for the past 38 years!
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molly77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-10 04:31 AM
Response to Reply #6
94. The central problem is US imperialism
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jeanpalmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-03-10 04:46 AM
Response to Reply #94
117. The fact that this isn't common knowledge
is scary. Looks like even some on DU are not aware.
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jeanpalmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-03-10 04:56 AM
Response to Reply #94
118. We're already there
with drones and a 3500-person assassin squad trained by the U.S. Wasn't this one of Obama's campaign pledges -- to go into Pakistan if necessary. In fact it represented a diagreement with McCain, who said it would be a mistake to go into Pakistan. Looks like Obama is just carrying out a campaign promise with this creeping involvement.
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FirstLight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
7. so is this the Pres & VP making these choices?
...or are the commanders on the ground making the decisions and justifying it to the Pres?

either way, it's bullshit and ALL our soldiers need to be DONE and come HOME
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molly77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-10 04:37 AM
Response to Reply #7
95. Or is it the oil companies making these decisions.
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bullwinkle428 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 10:19 AM
Response to Original message
8. Under the bus with you, my dear Rachel!!
:evilgrin:

(K&R)
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SargeUNN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 10:20 AM
Response to Original message
9. War is something I don't want either
Unless it is like it was with the Fascist and WW2 where we have no choice, I say stay out war.
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PoliticAverse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
11. How many drones before it counts as a war?

And they have nukes, Iran doesn't...

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alsame Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
12. I hope she doesn't get fired like Phil Donohue did when he spoke
out against the Iraq invasion. I'm assuming she knows the risks and is willing to speak out anyway :thumbsup:
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. Rachel can only go up from where she is.
Could you see her as chair of the Democratic Committee?

--imm
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chimpymustgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #12
24. I was just about to post, "Rachel might want to have a little chat with Donahue..."
Folks...it's endless war.

WTF are we fighting for?
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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #24
54. Don't ask me I don't give a damn...
My next stop is Pakistan...

And it's five, six, seven open up the pearly gates...

I ain't gonna ask or wonder why...

Whoppee, we're all gonna die..
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DirkGently Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
13. Rachel rocks. And it kinda looks like we ARE at war in Pakistan.
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AlabamaLibrul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #13
27. We've always been at war with Eastasia. n/t
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Ghost Dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #27
45. I have already forgotten that Pakistan was with Eurasia just last month.
Unthinked.

The USA is permanently at war (or shadowboxing) with largely auto-projected 'external enemies', it seems, in order to avoid, by deviation and deflection, radical upheaval and reformation at home.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
14. Better get to screaming then
K&R
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ThomWV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
16. Aren't the Drones a form of war, or don't they count?
I thought we were already at war with Pakistan.
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #16
28. They're hoping they don't. Just like contractors doing special ops in Pakistan.
As long as troops aren't stationed there they hope they can get away with their operations there.
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Luciferous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
17. K&R
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 10:51 AM
Response to Original message
18. We all should be screaming bloody murder about what's going on RIGHT NOW!
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City Lights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. !
:thumbsup:
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krabigirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #18
26. Exactly
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irislake Donating Member (967 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #18
72. I agree!
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Individualist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #18
84. +1
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
19. 1. We are not going to war against Pakistan
2. It is up to Congress, not her.
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dixiegrrrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #19
30. Think not?
Read this test balloon.

Officials think bin Laden involved in Europe plot

By LOLITA C. BALDOR (AP) – 56 minutes ago

WASHINGTON — U.S. counterterrorism officials say they believe that senior al-Qaida leaders, including Osama bin Laden, are involved in the latest terror plot against European cities.

The multi-pronged scope of the emerging plan — which was to launch coordinated shooting sprees or attacks in Britain, France and Germany — is an al-Qaida hallmark. One U.S. intelligence official added, however, that the details of how the plan was directed or coordinated by the group's core leaders is not yet clear. Bin Laden and his top lieutenants are believed to be in hiding in Pakistan.

Several officials spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss intelligence information.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5h8LWFCvyMV2yCOw-vyCSMFIq2WtQD9IJ14SO0?docId=D9IJ14SO0

Yes, it is up to Congress, who has already decided.
The law giving any President power to chase "terrorists" around the globe
( ie: go to war against any country on the excuse of fighting terrorists)
was passed by Congress, on Bush's watch, and that august body has not indicated any willingness to do anything to change it.
Thus Bin laden is hauled out and dusted off every time the US wants to expand imperialism into other countries.
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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #30
38. Thats been the case since the inital invasion of Afghanistan
Its not really a test balloon when its a widely held belief. Remember? Thats what the whole talk about Bush letting Bin Laden escape from Tora Bora by using Afghan regulars instead of US troops.

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dixiegrrrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #38
50. ah..memories.
Cool that you had that image.
those pesky Al-Kada are so convenient.
One weekwe are killing their #2 man for the umpteenth time, then we have them all cornered and boxed in, then suddenly they are popping up in Yemen or some other country so we simply MUST stick a bunch of troops plus a contracted base there.
Meanwhile, those of us who NOT in the business of killing people or taking everyone's money are barely scraping by.
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ChiciB1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-10 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #50
101. It's Like Bin Laden Is Playing "Hide-And-Seek" & We Keep- Following
him around with MORE guns & SOLDIERS! As long at this continues, and I imagine he must be LOL by now, we look THE FOOLS!

I'm so fed up and sick of this, but then who really cares what so many Americans REALLY think?

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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-10 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #50
104. yes, reality can be pesky at times.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-10 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #50
108. The American Empire is not sustainable. nm
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Chef Eric Donating Member (576 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #19
60. Right. Because we can rely on Congress to keep us out of unnecessary wars. nt
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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #60
77. oh, sure. congress never met a war it didn't like. nt
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-10 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #19
106. "Up to Congress" LOL. Kinda like it was up to Congress to invade Iraq and Afghanistan.
A lot of good that did.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
23. We are already at war in Pakistan. n/t
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Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #23
32. And that is the correct answer.
We have been since O got in office. Funny how so many haven't noticed it. Well, played, President Obama, well played. :(
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
25. We have always been at war with Eurasia. nt
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Ghost Dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #25
47. I have already forgotten that Pakistan was with Eastasia just last month.
Unthinked.

The USA is permanently at war (or shadowboxing) with largely auto-projected 'external enemies', it seems, in order to avoid, by deviation and deflection, radical upheaval and reformation at home.
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CrownPrinceBandar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
29. When will it end?..........
THIS ENDLESS WAR
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dixiegrrrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. Obama just extended it. Look at this:
The White House
Office of the Press Secretary
For Immediate Release September 10, 2010

Letter from the President on the Continuation of the National Emergency with Respect to Certain Terrorist Attacks
September 10, 2010

Dear Madam Speaker: (Dear Mr. President :)

Section 202(d) of the National Emergencies Act, 50 U.S.C. 1622(d), provides for the automatic termination of a national emergency unless, prior to the anniversary date of its declaration, the President publishes in the Federal Register and transmits to the Congress a notice stating that the emergency is to continue in effect beyond the anniversary date. Consistent with this provision, I have sent to the Federal Register the enclosed notice, stating that the emergency declared with respect to the terrorist attacks on the United States of September 11, 2001, is to continue in effect for an additional year.

The terrorist threat that led to the declaration on September 14, 2001, of a national emergency continues. For this reason, I have determined that it is necessary to continue in effect after September 14, 2010, the national emergency with respect to the terrorist threat.

Sincerely,

BARACK OBAMA

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9236448
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grahamhgreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #33
79. Terra, terra, terra!
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FiveGoodMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #29
35. Possibly when the rest of the world sees us as the new Nazi Germany or Soviet Union
Edited on Fri Oct-01-10 02:04 PM by FiveGoodMen
and forms a military alliance against us.

You can be sure it's already being discussed.
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CrownPrinceBandar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #35
48. Or we go bankrupt like the Soviets did...n/t
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FiveGoodMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. Yes, and I think we're getting close to that.
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
31. Sorry but I would...imo THAT is where the real problem is...and if it goes 'rougue'...
..the planet will be in a world of shit because that will be Earth's first nuclear conflict...
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Chulanowa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #31
53. "If maybe perhaps" is not a valid argument for launching a war.
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ShamelessHussy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #31
55. suit up, solider... and that would be the worlds 2nd
nuclear conflict.

:crazy:
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-03-10 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #55
114. Really, who were the parties involved in the first one?
.."suit up soldier"..no thanks...we already have the soldiers that are much beter trained than me...but if you are fine with religious nutters in Pakistan lobbing nukes at their neighbours, fine, but if it's okay with you I'd rather not have to deal with that if we don't have to..
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ShamelessHussy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-03-10 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #114
120. the 2 most horrid words in the American lexicon... Hiroshima, and Nagasaki
i personally believe all countries should have nukes, as that may make imperialist think twice, before invading and murdering other nations, as it is those actions that destabilize the world.
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-04-10 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #120
121. In that instance only one party had nukes...a Pak v India situation both sides would have nukes...
...and neither side values human life so highly that they wouldn't start lobbing them at one another...and that would be VERY bad for the entire planet..
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
34. Enjoy the underside of the bus, Rachel.
War is the new Peace.
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Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
36. Go Rach!!!!
Hopefully there will be a lot of other voices joining you!

A war with Pakistan???? What insanity!!!!
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Dr.Phool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 01:40 PM
Response to Original message
37. Kick and Rec!
It's time to stop this money-guzzling, empire-building, immoral madness!

All of it.
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metapunditedgy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #37
59. "*Any* of it" would be nice at this point. n/t
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
39. NATO is launching air strikes in Pakistan.
I think deserves further scrutiny before loyalty oaths are issued.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/27/AR2010092706603.html

I :loveya: Rachel.
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Uzybone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
40. you better start screaming them
We have been at war with Pakistan in one form or the other since 2001.

Unless you guys think the Taliban have nothing to do with Pakistan.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
41. Thank you , Rachel.
Everyone else who doesn't understand: Wake up, please!
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old mark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
42. K&R...and this is would really be Obama's war, not like the others. nt
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
43. It sure would make a lot of people scream, but this is premature. Kerry
Kerry, Pakistan PM Gilani, discuss NATO strike

WASHINGTON (AFP) – Senior US Senator John Kerry said Thursday he and Pakistan Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani had discussed a NATO strike inside Pakistan that roiled ties between the uneasy "war on terrorism" allies.

"We had a good conversation about it. I think we will work through this," Kerry told AFP after Pakistan shut down the main land route for NATO supplies into Afghanistan after charging the NATO raid killed Pakistani troops.

"Obviously they are concerned -- and ought to be -- when there is collateral damage. We need to try to avoid it, and we do," said Kerry, who as Senate Foreign Relations Committee chairman has worked to improve US ties to Pakistan.

The senior Democratic lawmaker has made multiple trips to the region and shepherded legislation to vastly increase US assistance to Pakistan in a bid to soothe Islamabad's historic mistrust of Washington.

"They have some very critical day to day challenges right now and I think that's really what's preoccupying them to the greatest degree," Kerry said, without elaborating.

<...>


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jesus_of_suburbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #43
62. Some people will be first in line to criticize those who scream if it does happen.
Just a prediction (premature).

:-)
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
44. Ruh oh. Time for Obama to invite Rachel to have a chat at the WH just like he did a few months ago
to shut her up.
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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-10 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #44
105. I haven't forgotten that either.
I wonder how long it will be?
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frogmarch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 03:13 PM
Response to Original message
46. K&R!
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
51. It is not like Laos and Cambodia (although it "stinks" big time)
The war in Indochina was a proxy war for the war between the US and USSR
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grahamhgreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
57. But we've always been at war with Pakistan.....
:sarcasm:
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 06:33 PM
Response to Original message
61. how long to MISSION ACCOMPLISHED - Pakistan?
I think we may have already ended "combat missions" in Pakistan..
How long till we win!
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
63. "War against Pakistan" or "War in Pakistan"? Since Pakistan is a nuclear power....
the former seems unlikely. The later, however, has been going on for years.
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Eyerish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 07:58 PM
Response to Original message
66. Hear Hear Rachel!!
K&R
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 08:12 PM
Response to Original message
67. So Obama wins a Nobel Peace Price, and starts a NEW WAR?
Without ending any of the previous wars?

With a new country larger than any of the others that has NUKES?

:wtf:

Is this what any of us voted for? Is this what YOU voted for?
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Rosa Luxemburg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 10:07 PM
Response to Original message
74. Pakistan has several nuclear bombs so it wouldn't be wise
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jillan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-10 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #74
89. +1000000
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pauldp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 10:58 PM
Response to Original message
80. It's not Laos and Cambodia. The ISI was essentially created by the CIA
and we fund them big time. Will will send more contractors in - Blackwater has been there for a while.
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LLStarks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 11:05 PM
Response to Original message
81. Pakistan doesn't have to help us. Let them wash their hands of us. nt
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 11:11 PM
Response to Original message
82. Weird
Edited on Fri Oct-01-10 11:13 PM by Turborama
When this historical news broke in LBN it was largely ignored.

There's also the possibility Rachel is making a mountain out of a mole hill.
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elzenmahn Donating Member (124 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-10 07:31 AM
Response to Reply #82
98. Possible, but...
...governments have that tendency of turning molehills into mountains, i.e. Iraq.

Rachel's trying to get out ahead of this. Better to be wrong and risk looking the fool than to be right and not say anything, and become an accessory.

I'm with Rachel on this.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-10 11:57 PM
Response to Original message
86. YOU GO, GIRL!
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-10 12:00 AM
Response to Original message
87. Oh, we won't attack Pakistan. Like Saudi Arabia, they get a pass.
We might slap the kid sitting next to them, but not them. They have the bomb, and they're none too stable. Watch out, Syria.

We should have sought regime change in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, not Iraq and Afghanistan.

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liberation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-10 03:21 AM
Response to Reply #87
91. The regimes in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are both our allies...
... even worse, the regime in Pakistan is our doing. Maybe, just maybe... we should just stay the fuck away from changing other people's regimes and mind our own business for once. So we destabilize them first to prop the military puppets, and then we don't like them, so we need to change their regime... we need to make our own damned mind. Because in the end we're responsible of countless deaths in our name. Not that most Americans give two shits, after all most of our kids can't even point out in a map the countries we've bombing around the clock for the past decade.

Also, last I checked we're bombing Pakistan with drones quite often. If that is giving someone a "pass" to you, I shudder to think what the actual slap should be...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-10 04:14 AM
Response to Original message
93. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
emald Donating Member (718 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-10 05:52 AM
Response to Original message
97. no more of this war stuff, enough
I will scream with you Rachel. This has gone far enough and it is high time for some sanity in America.
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The Uncola Donating Member (519 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-10 07:57 AM
Response to Original message
99. Big K&R..
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DCKit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-10 08:27 AM
Response to Original message
100. If we HAD to spend the money at home instead, the number of green jobs would offset...
the military layoffs AND be better for the (real) economy.

Let's let the other energy-greedy countries pick it up from here.
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-10 08:53 AM
Response to Original message
103. kick and recommend!!
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-10 09:34 AM
Response to Original message
109. February 15, 2003 anti-war protest
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ProgRock8 Donating Member (11 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-10 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
113. Me too
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-04-10 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
122. Go, Rachel!
She is outstanding. :)
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