Here is an idea!! Let's open our borders not just to Mexico but to every country in the world.

[Robson]

Here's an idea.....we can get even and competitive with the third world.

Our open trade policies that allow the products of most any country into the USA (even if they restrict ours) could be extended to our borders. How about we just open our borders to any country, to all people that wish to migrate to the USA regardless of skills or education or background...even if they won't allow us or our products into their country?? Let them tap into our social security, medicare and whatever else we still offer to those of us with moderate means in America. While we are at let's bring in TB and leprosy.

We certainly could then compete with China, India, Mexico and Philippines all the countries that our multi-nat corporations are outsourcing jobs. This open door policy would end the need for outsourcing. No one could say we are racist.

BTW we could cut of our nose to spite our face.....and their certainly are politicians on both the right and left (Kennedy and McCain, etc), religious leaders, and business heads on both sides that would just love to have it that way.

AND....in relatively short order we could finish the rise and fall of the USA, if we allow those disconnected parties from reality in DC to have their way.

[soothsayer]

1. it's a way to stick a knife thru the heart of social security ("how can we possibly

afford it with all these new folks?") and to finish off the detested middle class.

[Robson]

2. Social Security, Medicare, and the middle class are gone if we allow this to happen

My qualifications on the right to immigration into the USA are straight forward and simple.

BUT.....two things that don't matter are race and country of origin.

However....what does matter is criminal background, what can the immmigrant offer the USA to both maintain and improve our standing in the world, improve the greater good of our country, improve our fiscal and financial position, and most importantly what will you (the immigrant) do to improve the standing (as opposed to destroy) the middle class of the USA.

That means immigrants must have more to offer us than we offer immigrants.

[Warren Stupidity]

6. Oddly enough a flood of new (young!) workers

would fix our SS "problem" overnight. But don't let the facts get in the way.

[Robson]

11. How about new young workers on minimum wage and their parents on welfare

My friend it takes skills and education before one can earn enough money to add to our US economy.

Without that one is a net negative.

What we have with the illegal population are young people that have little to no skills and don't speak English, and we have some old people ready to dip into our social security...some are the parents of the young people.

But the REAL problem is the vicious cycle where American citizens who have some of the above are being squeezed where they are having less.....yet the rich who benefit from all this cheap labor and squeeze on the middle class are moving ahead economically like a jet in afterburner.

If you want to feel good about yourself, why not join the missionaries and move to Africa and help them, instead of pushing proposals that hurt Americans?

[Warren Stupidity]

12. Well I have to admit that is at least a novel argument.

So basically to get around the rather obvious fact that immigrants are young productive workers who would actually help our social security demographics problem, you are theorizing that they bring their aged parewnts with them and that somehow their parents end up on welfare. Other than the fact that this is total bullshit it is an interesting attempt to get around the reality of the situation.

[amandabeech]

48. Chain immigration.

Fake IDs. Work a few quarters at a low wage job, and viola! This is especially true for the "young old"--folks in their early '60s.

Lots of bennies for seniors even if they haven't paid into social security.

I'm seeing more and more of this. I've even worked with a few of them, and I hope sincerely that my small sample is not indicative of the lot. I have found that a surprising percentage of our newcomers really don't like African Americans, and the older ones are the worst.

Relations between Euro Americans and African Americans have never been good. I don't think that it is a good idea to bring in people whose prejudice has not been tempered by reality and historical knowledge. But how can we really screen for that?

[Warren Stupidity]

67. "I've seen more and more of this"

Well then you can of course document that immigrants are a net drain on the economy. Please do so.

Meanwhile in reality immigrants tend to be young healthy and hard-working. They represent exactly the demographic that the boomer generation needs to get them over the ss/medicare funding hump exacerbated by dumbfuck's pernicious evil war-fraud treasury looting.

[amandabeech]

74. I believe that the economist Borjas has, at least with respect to those

nearer the bottom of the economic pile. This is DU, so I suppose that would concern you, along with the unfortunate fact that among the native born, African Americans are far too likely to be in that group.

I have seen reference to other, newer studies that suggest that illegal immigration, indeed, mass immigration, has not been a benefit to people who are already here, except perhaps those who now can afford more hired household services and live-ins and don't have to worry their beautiful minds about hiring African Americans. Next time I see those, I'll check them out and drop you a line.

[uppityperson]

15. New immigrants can not get social security.

You have to work for a number of quarters in order to get it.
edited to add the needed "not"

[rucky]

18. And Pay Taxes...

something not mentioned so far.

[BlooInBloo]

62. But they aren't the "right kind" of young workers.

[Unvanguard]

45. Um, the best thing you can do for Social Security

is to add a large number of workers to the payroll tax-paying base.

[amandabeech]

75. You can also raise the wages for those at the bottom, and extend

social security taxes to higher earners.

You could also add a small surtax on any and all income, wage or investment, upon which social security does not now apply.

That way, you'd get those who are now making out like bandits to pay for the retirement and disability of those that they are now exploiting.

[wildhorses]

3. ~~

:eyes:

[BlueJazz]

4. I don't agree (of course)......but you can be sure that there are a few...

...people on this board that would LOVE to see our borders completely open.

They remind me of someone who, while in line at the grocery store, would let 10 people in front of them and then expect the 20 people behind them to applaud their "Kindness and consideration"

"Well...gosh...I'm so nice" (While fucking over everybody else)

Oh..and they're nasty and mean also...

[Robson]

8. May I applaud your analogy?

....because it is absolutely on target.

Some think they are righteous while they shaft everyone else.

Again....I love your analogy because it is right on the money. And those that do it don't grasp the impact to others. It's all about how they feel about themselves.

[BlueJazz]

10. Thank You!....That's nice to hear...Especially after being raked....

....over the coals after voicing the (Quote) "Disgusting Racist remarks"
(I thought that folks who enter the USA illegally should not automatically be given amnesty every few years)

[GirlinContempt]

43. I find this interesting.

"Some think they are righteous while they shaft everyone else."

Sounds like the entire country.

"And those that do it don't grasp the impact to others. It's all about how they feel about themselves."
That is a very succinct, on target description of the American way of life.

[amandabeech]

49. And how they view the treatment of their ancestors

By those who were already here.

I'm a boomer and many of my friends are still pissed about how their immigrant grandparents or great-grandparents were treated.

My filthy Irish and big-dumb Swede ancestors weren't exactly welcomed, but their treatment doesn't affect my views on what I think is the right thing for the U.S. now. Others see it differently.

[Warren Stupidity]

5. I agree free trade and free labor.

Instead what we are brewing is a global corporate feudalism with us serfs penned into our lord's domain to be used as he sees fit.

Along the way we ought to make it fair trade and fair labor.

[pampango]

7. Anyone who opposes your idea must be a racist.

According to some, the only reason to oppose a completely open border would be racism. ;) Not just racism towards the brown Hispanic, but towards Africans, Asian, Middle Easterners, etc.

[Robson]

9. Racism is more about me than others.....ask them if you don't agree

The odd thing about those that claim racism is that it is usually about them, not others.

[Warren Stupidity]

13. No wait I'm rubber and you're glue!

Racism is what it is. Calling it out does not make one a racist.

So exactly what horrors would occur if all borders on planet earth were open to all people?

[TahitiNut]

16. The U.S. already leads the world in (legal) immigration ... three times as many as #2.

So, the question becomes one of unilaterism vs. bilaterism (or multilateralism). But, to repeat, it's NOT a question of "immigration" as much as it's a question of exploiting labor - labor that cannot vote, cannot file civil suits, cannot unionize, and has no proclaimed or demonstrated interest in 'immigrating' in many/most cases.

Read http://journals.democraticunderground.com/TahitiNut/386

I personally agree with Hartmann - "It's an Illegal Employer Problem"

As long as the shit-flingers persist in throwing the 'racist' epithet around there cannot be rational discussion leading to consensus - the basis for positive populist political activism.

[Warren Stupidity]

19. Well that doesn't really answer the question.

To pretend that the situation with respect to our southwestern border region, a territory we took from Mexico, a region whose population is and has been mexican first, a 'problem' that we have periodically solved with the vile 'solution' of mass deportations does not reflect a long racist history in this country is either dishonest or ignorant. You may in fact not be a racist, but to me 'illegals' is the 21st century socially acceptable replacement for 'wetbacks'.

If the problem is simply illegal immigration, then as most of these illegal immigrants are mexicans working illegally in the southwest, lets legalize that situation. Lets stop making this multi-decade long economic arrangement criminal. Then lets enforce labor laws such as minimum wage, osha regulations etc. Somehow that does not satisfy those who are so angry about the 'illegals'. As it does not satisfy them, I long ago came to the conclusion that this is not about illegality it is about ethnicity, it is racist.

But back to my question: suppose all the borders on earth were as open as the borders within the EU, what exactly would be the problem?

[hansberrym]

21. Government of the people, for the people and by the people

would persish from the earth. (not just in the US, but everywhere)

Our nation would be replaced with government of the global corporations, for the global corporation, and by the global corporations.

Without our Constitution and representative government we would be in the same position as the serfs. The rich would run roughshod over your pipe dream of a global workers paradise.


If we in the US can not keep control of our own country and the rights we now have vis-a-vis the globalists who call for open borders and the undoing of our Constitution, how the hell can we have any influence once a global government is put in place?

Who will write your global government's constitution?

How many wars will the globalists have to fight before they subjugate all the peoples of the earth?

What is happening right now in Iraq ought to put the lie to Bush's assinine assumption that everyone, everywhere in the world is just like us. If that were so, the Iraq war would have ended long ago.


Whatever happened to the workers paradise called the Soviet Union ?

[Warren Stupidity]

22. I have some bad news for you.

Our republic was long ago replaced by government of the corporation, by the corporation and for the corporation. Since approximately the civil war we have been at best reforming the corrupt rule of the corporate elites, and more typically, as in the current crisis, suffering under their avaricious malevolent rule.

[hansberrym]

31. And your plan is to give over what remains?

Yes, the Corporations have been at work eroding our Constitution (corporations are "people" protected by the 14th amendment and all that crap)
for more than 100 years. However the solution is not to simply give them the global government that they want.


The genius of the Constitition is that it was designed to prevent any one faction from gaining complete control. The corporatists have gained enormous influence, but the obvious answer is to repair the damage by using the Constitution and laws to rein in corporate power, not to trash our Constitution in favor of a new one written by the same corporations that have undermined the government we now have.


The game is not over, resistance is not futile, world government is not inevitable, and standing up for Independence is not racist despite what the jack-offs at the world street journal say.

[Warren Stupidity]

32. I do not view a planetary social democracy as a bad thing.

And as far as control over this nation state goes, the game has been pretty well over for a long time. The reform era of FDR was 75 years ago. Since then the slow erosion of our rights and the modest reforms of that era has cascaded into a complete capitulation. We are pretty much back where we started from around the gilded age, updated with a modest to miserly social welfare program, and even that is under continuous assault. The corporate elite are firmly in control not only of our nation, but of the entire system of the world. You are so worried about 'world government' but you are blind to the fact that we already have one, it is not democratic, it is not public, it holds its meetings in Davos and other elite resorts, and it runs the whole show without our having even a symbolic say it what goes on. Yes sure I'd trade an official democratic system of world government for the despotism we now suffer under any day. We can start to get there by realizing that we are all one people, it is all one small planet. The earth north of the mexican border is the same as the earth south of it. A field mouse has more liberty to live where it wants than you do.

[hansberrym]

38. I view it as, at best, a pipedream. A foolish one at that.

If we in the US, with our education, wealth, and resources(both natural and political as in our laws and Constitution, can't control the influence of the global corporations, how do you plan to control them on a global scale?

Power tends to corrupt, but absolute power corrupts absolutely.


If you think the US is under a despotism now, just wait to you get your wish for world government.

[Robson]

35. Amen bro... the WTO, "free trade" etc. - a strategy to break the back of labor

The major agenda behind the World Trade Organization has always been to promote the free transfer of labor and the weakening of national sovereignty. Their goal is to trade off sovereignty and the commensurate political power of citizen labor in order to increase corporate influence and profits. BTW it doesn't take PHD in economics to see this.

Immigration has always been about providing US business with market growth and labor supply. Temporary VISAs and illegal immigrants do the same but they are politically more palatable as no one has to approve a 2 million a year increase in our country's permanent population. But their effect is the depression of wages and benefits and lowering of standard of living for US citizens, which means there will be fewer Americans able to afford college or other higher education that will increase our technical position and the medium income level. The result is a downward spiral in the standard of living in the USA not to mention stress on our environment and overpopulation.

WANTED: A political party that unambiguously will stand up and support American workers. There are some politicians on both sides that see the light, but not a political party with that as their primary objective such as was the Democratic Party at one time. Bill Clinton signed NAFTA and Ted Kennedy would invite the world here if given the chance.

[hansberrym]

39. Our best chance is to sway the Dems back to their roots.

I don't think the Repubs have a chance of shaking off the globalist yoke, with Bush, Newt, Hagel, and McCain leading the way.

And a third party is a real longshot.

[Madspirit]

42. Thank-you Warren...beautiful post...n/t

[treestar]

14. It's worked up to now

Think of the world as a hotel. The rest of the countries are like the rooms, locked. The US has always been the lobby, where anyone could go.

So which country became the richest and most powerful?

One has to understand economic reality to see that restrictionist policies are the ones that hurt the economy.

[Robson]

17. Your hotel analogy is good except

I disagree on your analogy that the USA was the open lobby where anyone could come and go. We never had an open door policy.

We as a sovereign nation had a locked room as do the others, except we were more hospitable. We were more open to having guests but we still required that they knock and be invited in before they entered. That's common courtesy and shows respect for the host.

[Warren Stupidity]

20. Few immigration restrictions until early 1900s.

The exception being the hideous Chinese Exclusion Act in the late 1800s. Our great immigration waves prior to the current one were with our doors wide open. We prospered as a nation while taking in huge numbers of people, essentially anyone who wanted to come.

Now the robber barons are more interested in penning workers up in little fiefdoms so that they can manage the relative wage disparities as they shuffle capital freely about the planet. They are deliberately nurturing xenophobia in a classic divide and conquer prison planet strategy to keep us workers from organizing effective post soviet labor movements to counter their plundering of our labor and the planet's resources. They laugh at our squabble here, things are going well for them indeed.

[hansberrym]

24. Horse bleep

The rober barons have always been for open borders. Once the labor movement got any traction and managed to organize to an extent that they could win hire wages, the rober barons would simply bring in more immigrants who would work for less than the previous wave. (example of Bush Bullshit: we just want to match willing workers with employers)

Then, as today, it is the rober barons who scream racist! at anyone who disgreed, and they would foment racism to prevent the people from coming together to oppose them. Same shit different day.


Next you will tell us that the North Americian Union is really a grass roots effort by the citizens of Mexico, Canada, and the US to throw off the shackles of Constitutional government.

[Warren Stupidity]

27. No NAFTA is a steaming pile of shit

However you should note that it only frees capital and goods to move about, not the workers who create those goods. A better example is the EU, where within the EU people are more or less free to work anywhere they choose. The 'rober' barons are all for exploiting illegal immigrants, not so hot on legalizing them. Why is that?

Imagine a planet where wage, benefits and working conditions were regulated world wide. Can you do that? Who would benefit most? Who has the most to lose?

[hansberrym]

33. We agree on NAFTA, but I suspect for different reasons.

The 'rober' barons are all for exploiting illegal immigrants, not so hot on legalizing them. Why is that?


In fact it is the robber barons in the US who are clammoring for a path to citizenship for whoever wants to come, and they are pushing for a merger of the US with Mexico and Canada, as well as world governemnt. The NAU is not a grass roots movement by the citizens of the US, Mex. and Can.

Regulated by the Global Corporation, for the ....

Who wrote NAFTA? Who wrote the EU Constitution? Who will run Europe if the EU Constitution is ever ratified? Who will run a world government?

Thank god for the French!



Imagine a planet where wage, benefits and working conditions were regulated world wide. Can you do that? Who would benefit most? Who has the most to lose?

Yes I can imagine what global government will bring -it is a nightmare. Imagine Iraq on a global scale.

Who would benefit most?
The globalists say it is the people of Iraq, but I have my doubts.


Who has the most to lose (I respond by asking asking who has lost the most in Iraq) ?

1) Haliburton or the people of Iraq?

2) The US treasury and taxpayers or the multinational corps that are getting rich on the war?

3) The US soldiers who are dying and wounded by the thousands or Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, and other master planners of the crusade to advance The New World Order?

[Gold Metal Flake]

28. Silly, don't confuse with facts.

The Bush Progressives are trying to erase the history of the labor movements of the 20th century. The tactics of the Bush Progressives to enslave labor have not changed, but, as Ann Couter said, they have the media now.

Now report to your stoning station and be reduced to nutritious green squares to feed the cheap labor masses being driven from their countries by the Bush Progressive Overlords that infect their governments onto our shores. Profits must be increased by reducing the costs of shipping product, y'know.

[Unvanguard]

47. Strange. When I attend immigration rallies

I don't see very many robber barons. But I see a whole lot of people advocating not only amnesty and liberal immigration policies, but also living wages and economic justice for EVERYONE.

They are very explicit about it.

[amandabeech]

60. Do you actually expect the captains of finance and industry to

associate with the masses, any masses?

They never have done it, and they never will do it.

They will however, finance it.

[Unvanguard]

68. Prove that they finance it. n/t

[amandabeech]

76. Maldef and La Raza get a lot of support from foundations like

the Ford Foundation.

Check for yourself.

My point, however, was less specific than you took it.

These folks know and have always known what is in their best interests. That is how they make money.

I suggest that you read up a bit on labor history. They're a bit more subtle now.

[Robson]

78. That's proven by the posts of some .......

who believe that those who post against expanding immigration and opening our borders are xenophobes or racists. They might mean well but they've been manipulated by the forces of greed and evil. I call robber barrons evil and greedy. They do fund the groups such as La Raza that work to bring in unlimited labor but the tracks will be muddled and covered.

This is about protecting our labor force and our middle class and our standard of living against robber barrons who live in gated communities, protected by Blackwater and have a dozen homes across the globe and in high rent areas such as Switzerland.

[amandabeech]

81. Thank you for your support.

I usually don't get involved in these threads because I'm sick of being called a racist and a xenophobe, even though I often point out the effect that mass immigration has on the African American community, which no one ever comments on, by the way.

Sometimes, I think that I need to leave the Democratic party. I'm sure that plenty of people here would cheer at the thought of all us racists leaving.

Have you thought about leaving?

[Robson]

83. Corporatist elites versus middle class Americans

Yes I do have grave concerns about our country and the political system. There is a huge constituency that would support the libertarian philosophies proposed by Lou Dobbs and others that see the real threat to our country, and I suspect this group would leave both parties in a heartbeat. There is a growing anti-incumbent, anti-establishment anti-institution mood in this country that I suspect many politicians are not tuned into yet. The 2006 election outcomes are one indicator.

The problem is that the Democratic Party was hijacked by those who had their own pet issues that alienated many historic Democrats, much as the Repubs were hijacked by the radical religious right. These issues were important to them and legitimate to an extent, but it resulted in the Democrats losing clout. That's how the south and poor blue collar workers were lost.

There are important issues and then there are very important issues that will affect our country and its standing for decades. Right now the corporatists are still in charge. They still have huge influence with Democrats with DLC.

[amandabeech]

85. I'm far from being a libertarian myself.

I'm an old-fashioned FDR type.

When I lived in Texas for a year in the early '80s, a prominent Democrat, who is no longer with us and who did many, many, good things in his life, came into my office with a button on. It was black, had the word "exotics" written on it in white, and had a white circle with a white slash over "exotics." I asked him what it meant. He said it meant that the "exotics" were taking over the Democratic party. I asked him who the "exotics" were. He said "the blacks, the gays and the women." All of whom he supported, but I get your point. It's a matter of emphasis.

I also think that many of the exotics and the extreme anti-war types, and I detested Vietnam, were happy to dump traditional blue-collar Democrats over the war and affirmative action. The former won, and the latter became Reagan Democrats. They have been screwed over royally by both parties since, IMHO.

Frankly, I don't see how the corporatists will be sought until there's a Constitutional Amendment stating that money is not equal to speech in the political arena at least. Until then, the leaders of both parties "will dance with those what brung them," as the old Texans might say.

[Warren Stupidity]

63. Odd isn't?

And I see people and families, lots of families, who are loving and caring and a lot like me and my family. Who benefits from dividing us up?

[amandabeech]

66. I see families, too.

I see pictures of families all over the world.

I don't think that it is a good idea for all of them to live here, however.

I am more than happy to help them improve their own countries, however.

[Warren Stupidity]

70. They won't all live here.

Do you really think that everyone in the world would move here? Our skilled jobs are all going 'over there', a problem we simply forget about when 'the illegals' start causing us anxiety. It is not our economy that is growing in double digits. We are no longer the center of the world. We are not that big a draw anymore, except with respect to latin america, and that is a problem of long historical standing made worse by global free trade foolery.

The point is that it is part of the strategy of control to divide us up and pen us into our quaint little nation states. Meanwhile the global elites shift their vast capital resources about the planet leveraging the artificial advantages they create here and there to maximize their profits, waving their Free Trade banners and demanding an end to any and all barriers to their activities. They play us off one against the other and we willingly, entusiastically, join up for the fracas, fighting one another in the race to the bottom.

When we realize that we have reached wage equilibrium with India and China we might wake up, but I doubt it.

[amandabeech]

73. I'm well aware of outsourcing and the problems of free trade.

I've been concerned about them since the 1970s. Do not assume that those whose oppose illegal immigration, and in my case, mass immigration, are not aware of other evils in the world.

Where I disagree with you is that the idea of the nation-state is quaint. This is the place I was born, and I've seen lots and lots of warts, but I don't really want to leave. I am a product of its culture and a student of its history. I'm going to miss the Memorial Day service in my hometown's cemetery on Monday because I waited too late to get a flight, and I'm not happy about it. This stuff means something to me in a way that it does not appear to matter to you. It is a feeling that I think is shared by many, many humans and is a part of our psyche. Sure, I could live elsewhere in the west (I like Canada and Sweden) or perhaps in other places where women are treated well. But I don't want to live abroad permanently, and unless I marry a national of someplace else, no other country is going to take me. I'm sure that many of my immigrant ancestors felt the same about their own countries, although others didn't and were very happy to be here rather than there. But I'm sure they would not disparage me for my loyalty to this country.

My patriotism does not make me stupid, however. Corporate globalism is larger than any one country. I am very interested in joining with folks in other countries to fight these b****ds, because they are out to destroy the homes of each and every one of us. At the same time, I do not want to do anything that I think would adversely affect my own country, particularly in light of the damage that I see global warming and reduced energy availability doing to the planet.

Call me names if you will. I'm sick of being silent.

[amandabeech]

51. Who cares about being the most powerful?

Power madness has in part led to the mess in Iraq and former messes all over the world. It's one reason why we have this huge military-industrial complex and an exhausted country.

And riches for whom?

Under PPP (purchasing power parity) we are not #1. And if PPP applied to median income, you can bet that we are sliding down the list. Check the GINI list.

[THUNDER HANDS]

23. something tells me you're being sarcastic

;)

[Robson]

36. I guess you could say that about the title, however

it wasn't meant to trivialize what open borders would do to our country. We need a government and laws that first and foremost provide for the welfare of our citizens. I agree we should help other countries and peoples if we can, but most in America now see this country as being in decline in many ways. We're not the powerful nation we were when the world owed us a debt.

[Gold Metal Flake]

25. Labor rights are so 1940s.

Labor rights and a prosperous middle class are concepts that have been rendered "quaint" by the Bush "progressives". The absorption of all peoples of all countries of all of the world by the US in order to drive down wages for all except the wealthy few would bring more happiness and joy to Americans, who should fall to their knees to worship at your brilliant plan. We will only achieve true justice as a nation when all American citizens must compete for jobs paying fifty cents an hour with guaranteed benefits of physical beating and occasional sexual assault. When we compete for those jobs against our own children, the system will be perfect. Of course, all unions should not just be dissolved, but their members killed and processed for food to feed the teeming masses for those who would join our new sub-dollar workforce.

Hail the corporate overlords. The constant cries of "racist" by the Bush Progressives will be the alert to where the stones of freedom shall be thrown to eradicate the pro-labor/Chavez devils.

Take a sarcasm gif and shove it where you need to.

[Unvanguard]

46. How are labor rights and immigration rights mutually exclusive?

Have open borders, AND protect all workers from exploitation.

[Gold Metal Flake]

50. Yes! Open the borders to all!

Wages must be surpressed! A large and liquid labor pool is what the Bush Proressives demand and by God we must give it to them! Why should they go offshore to pay workers pennies an hour and deny them health care, retirement or any other profit-robbing extra expenses! With a giant, liquid and uncontrolled influx of workers, all can be exploited equally and the wealthy will never again be held hostange by a unionized and organized labor force able to fight on equal footing for a living wage (workers have no right to live) or safe working conditions (if they don't know what might hurt them, fuck them).

[Unvanguard]

53. You didn't answer my question.

Why do open borders mean economic exploitation?

Population increases in and of themselves certainly don't... because more people means more consumption, and thus the demand for labor is increased with the supply.

[Gold Metal Flake]

69. LOL! What supply? What labor?

In America? Our manufacturing has been offshored by the cheap labor/pro-limitless immigration overlords. What remains for the middle class is under extreme pressure to lower wages,reduce benefits, decrease safty and increase working hours. Yes, I want to have to compete for my job from someone who just walked across the border and will do the work for 10 bucks an hour less. In fact, lets make ALL jobs subject to the same sort of competition. And ae laws? Unneeded? Lets get the 8 year olds back in the mines! Keep 'em off the video games. And we all spiral down to the bottom together and the rich get richer. Boy, you Bush Progressives are funny!


This child is not getting an education. He doesn't need it in Bush Progressive world!



The children of the Bush Progressive future. At least they aren't looking at internat porn! They used to work for $10 a week, but a massive boatload of child imigrants from China (our largest labor trading partner!) has pushed the price down to $5! Hooray for Bush Progressives everywhere!

[Robson]

90. Bush Progressive ...I agree and know what you mean

As Bush says you are with us or against us. Somehow I don't think he put capitalist corporatist elites into that equation. Our political parties must align themselves with EITHER Bush capitalist corporatists or with middle class working Americans. There are no other options if we want a country that our offspring will survive and flourish in.

The subtle nuances that some equate to a live or die issue are really of a secondary nature. Our country is about a strong middle class with a median income that increases annually. Anything else is insignificant. BTW I consider the Iraq War as a corporatist wet dream. The other issues that the Democrats get entangled with need put on the back burner.

[amandabeech]

52. Theoretically.no.

Practically, ask Dick Gephardt about those NAFTA labor and environment side letters.

The WTO would not allow it, either. China would object. They run the show now, you know.

[Unvanguard]

54. I don't believe the WTO can interfere with domestic labor regulations.

And there are certainly WTO members with much stronger labor protections than the US.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

26. Works for me. The United States was built because of open borders and immigrants.

Your thesis is full of holes.

You argue that the immigrants are uneducated and unskilled. So, what jobs are they going to get that threaten the majority of Americans' jobs seeing that most Americans are educated and skilled?

You say that they are going to drain SS, education, and healthcare, but ignore the fact that if they were citizens they would be paying taxes to pay for those services.

Your Dobbsonite allusions to TB and leprosy are merely contemptible. Why not throw in ringworm and dandruff?

[Warren Stupidity]

29. you fogot the dreaded coocaracha nt.

[sadiesworld]

34. Actually, stopping unlimited immigration in the 20's was

one of the major factors in ending widespread poverty and deplorable working conditions in this country. Keeping down the importation of cheap labor has always been crucial to keeping wages at a liveable level. This was something Cesar Chavez and liberal democrats understood when they worked to keep growers from bringing illegal labor across the border in the early 60's.

It simply isn't logical to expect US wages and benefits to remain reasonable when "scabs" are permitted (encouraged) to cross the picket line at will.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

40. In answer.

Samual Gompers - Founder of the AFL was born in London
Walter Reuther - President of the UAW was a son of German Socialist immigrant
Joe Hill - IWW organizer and songwriter was born in Gavle Sweden
Mother Jones - IWW organizer and strike leader - Born in Cork, Ireland
Mike Quill - One of the founders of the Transport Workers Union in New York - Born Gortloughera, County Kerry, Ireland
Rose Schneiderman - President of ILGWU and suffragist - Born in Chelm, Poland
Emma Goldman - Anarchist, Revolutionary, speaker for the IWW - Born in Kaunas, Lithuania

And, many more.

[dave_p]

41. I'd question that

Income inequality went on growing in 1924-28, despite immigration having been halved from its prewar peak. And the subsequent Depression didn't ease poverty, although immigrants stopped coming by choice rather than through statutory exclusion. The New Deal and another another war to make the breakthrough. Immigration was low by then, but I don't see a strong case for any substantial direct causal link.

[earth mom]

44. Great post! Proof positive that people refuse to learn from history. nt

[amandabeech]

61. People learn from history when it suits their purposes.

Now, it suits their purposes to accept huge corporate donations and import more possible democratic voters.

[Robson]

84. That is if one is a politician, the rest get screwed - NT

[amandabeech]

55. Look around you.

There are plenty of high-school drop-outs and high-school graduates around who are having a hard time supporting themselves or getting their similarly educated kids into the labor force.

I don't know where you come from, but not everybody here goes to college, is qualified for college, wants to go to college or can pay for college. And not everyone is suited to working at a desk.

You might want to check some statistics before you make blanket statements about the educational and skill levels of all U.S. residents, particularly those who were born here, which is the group that I assume you are describing.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

59. The same was even more true when the other waves of immigrants came here.

Somehow, the Republic survived and, I would say, was enriched by their arrival. And, the same scare tactics were used against them as are being used now.

[amandabeech]

72. When the great wave of immigrants in the late 19th and early 20th

century came here, there were very few college graduates and many, many fewer high school graduates. Many, many more people were involved in agriculture then, at least 50%, IIRC, and few went to school for it.

The U.S. at the time was building factories and railroads like mad. Now, of course, we are deindustrializing but may build more railroads because they are much, much more energy efficient than tractor-trailers, which is another discussion.

Very few U.S. African Americans were allowed to do the work. They didn't get into the factories until WWI closed off immigration and demand soared to supply the export market to the European war zone. Young men only went off in 1917 when we entered the war close to the end.

After all the building was over, 25-40% of the "Great Wave" of immigrants went home because there were no jobs. Outmigration continued in the 1930s because the U.S. was hit very, very hard by the Great Depression, harder than Europe.

The U.S. really did not see mass immigration between the start of WWI and the 1980s, but did see WWI, WWII, the Great Depression, Korea, Vietnam, the Cold War and a much needed cultural revolution in the 1960s. Somehow, the Republic survived.

[Robson]

89. If I had to make a guess......,

you might associate yourself more with the illegal immigrant population than those who are being screwed by them....particularly young black American citizen males who have been considered as employment risks by many employers who hire illegal Mexicans first. No risk of law suits or risk of labor hassles if one hires an illegal and pays cash.

[YankmeCrankme]

30. The US pushes for NAFTA type agreements that allow...

capital to flow freely between countries, but not labor. So, corporations can go looking for cheap labor and greater profits, but labor can't freely go looking for better paying jobs. Hence illegal immigration; as labor, in spite of one sided laws or pacts, will go searching for better pay. Of course, in country companies take advantage of that with the dwindling number of unions and selective enforcement of laws to exploit cheap immigrant labor, both legal and illegal. For capital it is a win/win. You get cheap labor overseas and drive down labor costs in US.

[dave_p]

37. Thank you

Free capital movement means corporations can employ people on even lower wages outside the US. But if those workers are living & working in their country of birth, nearly all their earnings are spent or saved locally rather than in the US, whose rich gain on the lowered wage bill but whose workers lose out on production to satisfy immigrant spending power.

[Deja Q]

56. Isn't that already being done? And why is it about 'competitiveness'?

The only way America CAN compete is if our wages our lowered.

Fine and dandy.

When will our cost of living match India's or China's, then?

They want "globalization", so it has to be even, full, and immediate. Right now it's tantamount to slashing one's wrists to give a blood transfusion. And the people we're giving the lifeblood to - do they like us? Are they really our friends? The media hasn't made up its mind; the politicians seem mute. They must be our friends; I prefer forward thinking to gloom and doom whenever possible.

Remember Michael Moore and his good deed of recent. As they say, no good dead goes unpunished; that $12,000 donation didn't make the guy re-think Moore's point for even a moment.

[Deja Q]

57. Isn't that already being done? And why is it about 'competitiveness'?

The only way America CAN compete is if our wages our lowered.

Fine and dandy.

When will our cost of living match India's or China's, then?

They want "globalization", so it has to be even, full, and immediate. Right now it's tantamount to slashing one's wrists to give a blood transfusion. And the people we're giving the lifeblood to - do they like us? Are they really our friends? The media hasn't made up its mind; the politicians seem mute. They must be our friends; I prefer forward thinking to gloom and doom whenever possible.

Remember Michael Moore and his good deed of recent. As they say, no good dead goes unpunished; that $12,000 donation didn't make the guy re-think Moore's point for even a moment.

[stirlingsliver]

58. Wonderful Idea! Where Do I Sign The Petition?

This is a wonderful idea.

There is NO reason why the US should not have open borders.

Where do I sign a petition to show my endorsement for this idea?

[Robson]

77. You didn't catch the sarcasm...sorry

This was meant to demonstrate that we need to control our borders unless we want to become a third world nation unable to help anyone except the robber barons.

[mudesi]

64. This OP sure is chalk full of xenophobia

What is it about other human beings who may not speak your language, or have different cultures or customs, that frightens you so?

[EFerrari]

65. The OP needs to change his sig to "Liberty & Justice for Some!

:puke:

[Madspirit]

86. Yup

...but hey, it's just Meskins we're talking about so who cares.

Lee *an "open borders" supporter*

[Madspirit]

87. Wow

I totally agree with you and I'm a Texan. I live in one of the states on that border and have many illegal friends. I will help them any way I can.
Lee

[DemGa]

71. Here's a crazy idea:

Prosecute corporations and employers who hire people who are here illegally. Not legal? No Green card? No work. Hire illegals and PAY big time.

I know, it's way out there.

[YankmeCrankme]

88. Here's another crazy idea

In addition to financially penalizing companies that hire illegals, how about a tariff on goods imported to the US. Since the world isn't a level playing field with regard to economics or trade many companies/corporations in rich countries exploit the labor/economic situation of poor and undeveloped countries. So, if a company that made a product that cost $30 and sold it for $40 decided to relocate manufacture of that product to another country where it would only cost $3 to make, importing it back into this country would incur a tariff of $27. That money (tariffs and fines) would go to a fund that would distribute it to high schools, vocational schools and public colleges/universities.

[timtom]

79. Can anyone guess

THE most signal event that heralded the decline of the Roman Empire?

[hansberrym]

80. It was racism pure and simple.

History teaches us that open borders is a sound policy, and anyone who opposes unlimited immigration is unenlightened racist scum.


(sarcasm intended)

[JVS]

82. Odoacer deposing the last (western) Roman Emperor?

GO GERMANIC TRIBES :woohoo:

[timtom]

91. This is more symbolic

than historic.

The book, "How the Irish Saved Civilization" (Thomas Cahill) graphically depicts how the (Rubicon? I can't find my copy of the book) froze over, allowing hordes of Gaulish tribes to flow effortlessly into the Italian peninsula.

That's a weird little bug that scuttles back and forth across your post.

[JVS]

92. I read that book. It was the Rhine and it was Germans who poured into Gaul

[timtom]

94. Thanks!

I still can't find that book, but thanks.

[TankLV]

93. Then we'd be back to where we were at the turn of the last century

which was a time of great growth and prosperity...

I would support such an "open borders" solution - seriously!

[JVS]

95. Woohoo! Let's enjoy the prosperity the Jurgis Rudkus got to experience!

Let's get rid of child labor laws too so that American youth can experience the joy of gainful labor. Maybe they'll even get eaten by rats!

[qdemn7]

96. Why don't we

Just annex Mexico, ALL of Central America and everything in the Caribbean, that way we would save lots of time, AND get a new flag to boot. :evilgrin: