OK-I have to share the feud we are having at my paper on health care

[w8liftinglady]

"Should be left to the states"...enjoy.(We did all agree Barton sucks :))

http://www.thedailylight.com/articles/2010/09/25/opinion/doc4c9cd9ce9f2b4586268215.txt

LETTER: Rep. Barton, Republicans make a “Pledge to America”
Published: Friday, September 24, 2010 1:38 PM CDT
WASHINGTON: Rep. Joe Barton (R-Ennis/Arlington), Ranking Member of the Energy and Commerce Committee, issued the following statement on Thursday after Republicans presented their “Pledge to America.” This governing agenda was created using the ideas of citizens from across the country who shared them in person and online:

“For the past several months, Americans have been speaking out and sharing their ideas on AmericaSpeakingOut.com and at rallies and town hall meetings. Overwhelmingly, folks have told me they are frustrated about what the Democrats in Congress are doing, from the forced government takeover of health care, to cap-and-tax, to the piling up of record deficits and ignoring our nation’s jobs crisis. The legislative agenda we are rolling out today shows that Republicans have been listening. It gives a voice to people’s frustration by proposing real, solutions that will help everyday people in their everyday lives.

“The biggest concern I heard - ObamaCare. People are angry about all the federal mandates, the intrusion of the government into daily health care decisions and the multitude of tax increases.

“It’s only been six months since the law was signed and our concerns are already being realized ��“ you can’t keep the insurance you like, you can be dropped from health insurance coverage, and deep Medicare cuts are beginning. This agenda reaffirms the efforts already initiated in the House by me and my Republican colleagues to repeal the job-killing, tax-raising, care-rationing parts of the Democrats’ health ‘reform’ law. Republicans are listening and together with the citizens of this country we will work to keep the liberty-destroying portions of this bill from ever taking effect.”

You can read the entire Pledge to America at www.pledge.gop.gov.

Love-Joe Barton(I added that)

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Reader Comments
The following are comments from the readers. In no way do they represent the view of thedailylight.com.
Stan4d wrote on Sep 24, 2010 3:25 PM:

" http://pledge.gop.gov/ is the correct link......God help the GOP while Barton is there.

If you dont pay attention to the details how can you make judgements on the bigger issues. "



Stan4d wrote on Sep 25, 2010 10:31 PM:

" Further: Where in the constitution does it allow for healthcare from the Government?

A PLAN TO REPEAL & REPLACE THE
GOVERNMENT TAKEOVER OF HEALTH CARE
• We will repeal the job-killing health care law
• We will replace it with real reforms, with a plan to:
o Enact medical liability reform
o Grant consumers the freedom to purchase
coverage across state lines
o Expand Health Savings Accounts
o Strengthen the doctor-patient relationship
o Ensure access for those with pre-existing
conditions
• We will permanently prohibit taxpayer funding of
abortion.

Where are there any provisions for this manure? "



w8liftinglady2 wrote on Sep 27, 2010 1:46 PM:

" stan4d:
i am torn.You have brought up some good points-ones that do need to be discussed.As a Libertarian for the first decade of my political existance,I,too,would like to see decreased government intervention in health care.if we lived in an ideal world,our citizens would be able to insure their families and elderly would be able to provide for their health care.Research would be based on benefit and not profit.Doctors could care for their patients with minimal paperwork and financial turmoil.Unfortunately,our corporations, healthcare and pharmaceuticals have placed profit ahead of patient care.6.5 million citizens in Texas have no insurance.As more than a third-world nation,should we see them die because they have no access without help?Are we that profit-oriented that we have lost touch with morality?
As a healthcare worker,I have seen too many people suffer because they couldn't access healthcare...couldn't afford their meds or preventative care.These patients overwhelm charities that used to provide...just ask those at Hope Clinic.They were able to expand thanks to a donation from the Federal Government.
People aren't dropping dead from these things anymore-they are living,loving and contributing to society.Are we to return to the dark ages?
I agree-reproductive choice is not the job of the government.in that respect,I AM still a Libertarian.
Peace.
Beth "



owlnwaxa wrote on Sep 28, 2010 8:48 AM:

" Point to ponder ,Stan. If indeed the healthcare reform was not within constitutional validity, do you honestly think that it would have introduced ,drafted, debated,voted on,passed, and signed into law by a group of freely elected representatives, the majority being lawyers,if there was any doubt of its being viable? If that is not true ,then where are the lawsuits and challenges? Why has not judicial arm of government weighed in? Your point is void. However we do agree that Barton is spreading fertilizer like a good party lackey to keep his job.. Namaste. "



Stan4d wrote on Sep 28, 2010 6:08 PM:

" Show me where Alan. Or have you even read the constitution. Show me where or shut up. "



Stan4d wrote on Sep 28, 2010 6:27 PM:

" It took me a little to answer you, first I had to get past the insinuation that I am an uncaring person and wish to see people suffer due to not receiving care.
I am not that way, I am stating that it is not the federal Governments role.
The base premise that man may not care for his brother so this action is needed is flawed. We do live in a republic. The very playing on emotions such as you have just done is why we are at this point.
Again It is not the responsibility of the Federal Government.
Just a few questions: “Are you willing to shred the 10th Amendment for this cause? Are you willing to abolish State borders and just have one State that decides everything for all? What have you or anyone else done on a State level to address the problems you mentioned?” "



owlnwaxa wrote on Sep 28, 2010 9:50 PM:

" No you show where it says the government cannot do this.No I shall not shut up. Unless you have a degree in constitutional law, you are as I. And yes I have. I just understand it beyond the ability to read the words. Good points and sentiment Beth. Namaste. "



w8liftinglady2 wrote on Sep 29, 2010 6:58 PM:

" Stan4d
I appreciate your response.I'm sorry we can't discuss this without "politics as usual" getting in the way.
As a healthcare provider,i have volunteered with several free clinics-as well as my aforementioned Homeless Veteran association.I have petitioned the State and County government of Texas-including Dallas,Tarrant and Ellis counties to increase provisions for the uninsured,have volunteered rides,cash and care for uninsured and worked with my Party to increase uninsured and underinsured awareness.
There have been Constitutional amendments made as times change.We have the resources,the knowledge,and the personnel to save people.We need to withdraw some of the unnecessary spending we are doing in other countries and channel it here.Preventative care is SO MUCH cheaper in the long run.Wait 22 hours in the ER sometime because you are uninsured and have no other option.Become unable to work because you couldn't see a doctor for a treatable condition.Start dialysis and become disabled because you were unable to get the preventative care that would have helped.
Oh,nevermind.We don't DO THAT in the United States,now-do we?

Peace.
Beth "



owlnwaxa wrote on Sep 29, 2010 7:52 PM:

" Daryl this about human welfare and health not states rights.And he who does not care for his brother,or sister when he can help is not much of a man,in my opinion.Namaste. "



Stan4d wrote on Sep 29, 2010 8:30 PM:

" Beth, again I put forth that what you are saying is a role of the individual states, not the Federal Government. So let me reprase: What have you done to change the legislation in the state of Texas to bring solutions to the problems you mention. Or do you rely totaly on the federal Government? "



Stan4d wrote on Sep 29, 2010 8:33 PM:

" Alan.....you really are pathetic. It is not stated that the federal government can do it so the Tenth amendment applies. Prove it does not. This is the second time the tenth amendment has been mentioned and you probably do not know what it is. So unless you could at least cite where or quote where this is not a state issue, then by all means show your ignorance by opening your mouth. "



w8liftinglady2 wrote on Sep 30, 2010 10:31 AM:

" stan-I think you misunderstood.I HAVE petitioned the local,county(hence Ellis,Tarrant and dallas) and state to increase care for the uninsured and underinsured(not just medical but also dental care).There are very few "State" organizations that are responsible for health care,beyond the TDSHS
http://www.dshs.state.tx.us/default.shtm
,which is overwhelmed due to-you guessed it-less tax revenue.Maybe you can enlighten me as to the state health system?
Rand was either uninformed or selfish when she wrote her Libertarian agendas.Her favorite student,Alan Greenspan,even admitted as much.
Peace.
Beth "



w8liftinglady2 wrote on Sep 30, 2010 10:35 AM:

" Oh,and stan-be sure and read about the State budget reduction for 2011.it is eye-opening.

Budget Reductions
Texas health and human services agencies submitted their response to the January 15, 2010, request from state leadership to identify possible savings in agencies’ FY2010-2011 budgets. Leadership has made decisions on those recommendations and the agencies have now posted their approved plans.

Approved Budget Reduction Plans – May 18, 2010 (link to http://www.hhsc.state.tx.us/about_hhsc/2011-budget/ReductionOptions_0510.pdf)
Budget Reduction Options – Feb. 26, 2010 (link to http://www.hhsc.state.tx.us/about_hhsc/2011-budget/reduction-options.shtml)
Peace.
Beth "



owlnwaxa wrote on Sep 30, 2010 11:49 AM:

" Stan ,the constitution doesn't say the federal government cannot do this.Once again , Obamacares legality would have been disproven if it was so.Reality ,Baby, deal with it and Namaste, friend. "



owlnwaxa wrote on Sep 30, 2010 12:03 PM:

" It's all about people being well and not being forced into poverty trying to stay that way.The costs to you or I personally is minimal in comparison. What do you have against helping people? Why the argument against we as a people taking care of our own that are, through no fault but of circumstance, needy of our help?Or are you also judge of who is worthy? Sad, angry little man you present yourself to be in the eyes of others.Yet still a fellow citizen that deserves every benefit of this great country . Thanks for comments ,my friend.Namaste. "



Stan4d wrote on Sep 30, 2010 5:09 PM:

" So Beth, if I understand.....you tried to implement what you want within the bounds of the constitution, but the voters of the state of Texas were against you. So now you seek the federal Government to overide the State, in violation of the Tenth Ammendment.

Alan, the constitution limits the government. If it is not in it then it is reserved for the states. (again Tenth amendment) I will not respond to you again. You seem to have a knack for insults and it is one reason why I take extended breaks from this site. I wonder if the drop in subscritions or online readership has to do with your incessant insults and comments on every article? "



Stan4d wrote on Sep 30, 2010 5:11 PM:

" One last point.....Alan, how do you explain the suit filed by 20 States on the basis that it is unconstitutional? "



w8liftinglady2 wrote on Oct 1, 2010 9:41 AM:

" Please show me where the voters "voted " to cut state spending..I can't seem to find it.
I will question the 10th amendment if it is the only thing standing in the way of adults and children getting health care.
Here is a link into previous constitutional amendments.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendments.html
the state dropped the ball.
Does the state offer burial service for these people?Just curious.
Peace.
Beth "



w8liftinglady2 wrote on Oct 1, 2010 11:40 AM:

" Also,stan-here is a list of the "few" legal suits private insurance/medical/pharmaceuticals have with the state

http://lawcrawler.findlaw.com/LCsearch.html?entry=health+care+texas&restrict=pro

Pretty interesting,isn't it?Makes ya proud to be a "free-marketer".

Peace.
Beth "



owlnwaxa wrote on Oct 1, 2010 12:17 PM:

" Barton's plan does not cover those who need it the most.The state of Texas does not cover those who need it the most. The insurance companies, though covering those who can afford it, does not cover those who need it the most. It is not a question of constitutional legality but of human morality and compassion. The federal government is just the tool we use to try to make it so.The private sector has failed. And the middle class ,taxpaying majority of Americans are suffering. Namaste and peace and goodwill to Daryl Stanford. "



stan4d wrote on Oct 1, 2010 3:24 PM:

" Didi the voters elect the state representatives? Are you actively campaigning for candidates who wish to change healthcare at a state level.


As far as ignoring the tenth amendment on this issue I have a ironic observation.
In effect you are forcing your morality on others. (Again I wish for something to be done to address the issues you mentioned, but only on a state level. Why should I force what I think is right for Texans on citizens in North Dakota? "

[w8liftinglady]

1. lol..as you can see-I have a lot of free time on my hands.

[elleng]

3. Great work, w8!!!

[bluestateguy]

2. This is a waste of time

If they even get the votes in Congress to repeal (a big if), it will be vetoed and sustained, and that will be that.

[RC]

4. The 10th Amendment has absolutely to do with health care.

It is the Preamble and the 8th Amendment that applies - The general welfare part.
Don't let them get away with with the mis-direction of states rights. We already have too much health care left to the people because they cannot afford any.

Preamble to the Constitution of the United States of America:

We The People "We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, PROMOTE THE GENERAL WELFARE, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Section 8.
"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and PROVIDE FOR THE common defense and GENERAL WELFARE of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;..."

Twice in our Constitution it mentions "general welfare" What constitutes 'General Welfare'?
The old-age benefits provisions of the Social Security Act of 1935 is an example of providing for the 'general welfare'. Medicaid/Medicare are 2 more examples of providing for the 'general welfare'.
Government controlled, Single Payer, Universal health care for the people of the United States IS covered by the Constitution, because the relative health of our citizens does affect the general welfare of the Nation. 45,000 dead people a year are proof the profit driven, privately run systems we have in place now are not working to provide the necessary health care for our nation.
How can our present private health insurance system, with its many insurance companies (each with its own way of doing things), its own highly paid management, its own attention to the bottom line for its share holders, its own claims requirements, its own forms for submitting claims, etc., be more efficient than any government controlled single Payer system, with its single set of rules and forms?

[lysosome]

7. I'd also highlight the "lay and collect taxes" bit if you want to make a teabagger's head explode.

[RC]

8. This was lifted from my web site where I was talking about Health Care.

[amerikat]

5. Bookmarked for later. But I will say this.

I started to read your post. I'm tired, it's late but I appreciate all the work
you put into this.

When I find people that aren't sure what to do about health care, I say
"Health care is a gift every great nation gives to itself". It makes people think.

When I was growing up many years ago my mom worked for the phone company. Her job
or my dads job provided medical, dental and eye care to the whole family.
We had pretty good care. Back then Blue cross/ blue shield were basically a non
profit health care systems.

I often wonder if we as a people could set up such a non profit system again.
A health care co-op.
I'm not sure how to do that. I'd like to see us go back to such a system where
universities do the research and the general population gets the benefits of the
research they do.

I like your posts and appreciate all the letters to the editors that you write.

Keep on fighting w8liftinglady and keep on writing. I was a libertarian too, a couple of decades ago. As a nation of 300 million people we have some power in numbers and we can make
a better health care system.

amerikat

[WillParkinson]

6. “The biggest concern I heard - ObamaCare.

“The biggest concern I heard - ObamaCare. People are angry about all the federal mandates, the intrusion of the government into daily health care decisions and the multitude of tax increases."

I would be more than willing to bet that most of the people don't understand it or don't know what's actually involved in it.

Part Deux

"In effect you are forcing your morality on others."

Because Republicans haven't been doing that for decades.

[Motown_Johnny]

9. Constituality... Article 1 Section 8

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defense and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States.........


It is reasonable to argue that Health Care directly effects the general welfare. Try to get them to explain how health care Doesn't fall under general welfare.




Job Killing Is Bull Shit !!!


Because employers need to foot part of the bill for health care it makes it more expensive to manufacture goods here than in countries where employers don't have that expense. Single payer would have been better but improving health care and controlling costs helps us compete.



Every argument against HCR is BS.


One argument you seem to not be using (and I rather enjoy) is that there are times when the fiduciary responsibility of a company's employees are directly opposed to the general welfare of our citizenry. When this happens in cases like Retirement or Health Care or Prosecuting a War it is unacceptable and the private sector needs to be removed from the process. I use this against the basic underlying idea that the private sector can always do everything better than the government. You need to attack that idea if you are ever going to shut those people up (you won't ever change their minds).



Good luck to you

[hansberrym]

10. General Welfare clause does not plausibly include running health care

The opponents of the Constitution, the Anti-federalists, argued that such phrasing would allow the Federal government to do just about anything as long as Congress claimed it was acting in the general welfare and so would be a dangerous expansion of the powers of the general government. Madison pointed out that such rerasoning is nonsense as the Artciles of Confederation (the then current general government) contained the same phrasing -and no one argued that the Articles allowed such.



From the Articles of Confederaltion:
{i}The said States hereby severally enter into a firm league of friendship with each other, for their common defense, the security of their liberties, and their mutual and general welfare, binding themselves to assist each other, against all force offered to, or attacks made upon them, or any of them, on account of religion, sovereignty, trade, or any other pretense whatever.

and

All charges of war, and all other expenses that shall be incurred for the common defense or general welfare, and allowed by the United States in Congress assembled, shall be defrayed out of a common treasury, which shall be supplied by the several States in proportion to the value of all land within each State, granted or surveyed for any person, as such land and the buildings and improvements thereon shall be estimated according to such mode as the United States in Congress assembled, shall from time to time direct and appoint



http://www.usconstitution.net/articles.html

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/fed41.asp

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/fed45.asp




Even Hamilton's broad understanding of the General Welfare clause is not so broad as to allow allow Congress to do anything that appears to Congress to be conducive to the General Welfare.
http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/a1_8_1s21.html

From Alexander Hamilton, Report on Manufactures:
The only qualification of the generallity of the Phrase in question, which seems to be admissible, is this--That the object to which an appropriation of money is to be made be General and not local; its operation extending in fact, or by possibility, throughout the Union, and not being confined to a particular spot.

No objection ought to arise to this construction from a supposition that it would imply a power to do whatever else should appear to Congress conducive to the General Welfare. A power to appropriate money with this latitude which is granted too in express terms would not carry a power to do any other thing, not authorised in the constitution, either expressly or by fair implication




But reason went out the window a long time ago, and we now have a federal government of unlimited powers, not by design or consent, but by misconstruction and usurpation.

So do not bitch whan the federal government claims the power to read your mail, seize your property, or seize the money in your pockets in the name of the drug war or the national health system. The ninth and tenth amendments have no teeth, and the rest of the Bill of Rights is not far behind, be careful what you wish for.