A Question: Don't we have hard numbers from the rally yesterday?

[jimlup]

I've been looking and have found nothing solid. Didn't CBS have a satellite photo count of the Beck rally? There must be a satellite photo and associated data somewhere. I've been looking here and have so far been unsuccessful.

[ThomWV]

1. Someone's got numbers, but if they are encouraging we probably won't see them

Anyone who said 200,000~250,000 wouldn't be far off.

[annabanana]

2. If they thought they could prove it ws a SMALLER crowd.. You just

KNOW it would be all over the TV screens.

Their lack of coverage clinches it for me. It was not only bigger.. it was much bigger.

[jimlup]

3. Right... but on Monday morning when the cons strat talking...

We need hard numbers and good source to be able to make the statement that it was bigger. I know they are wrong but they won't know that they are. They will go on and on about how the unions had people bused in and stuff...

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

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[annabanana]

7. Sorry.. If it were smaller than Beck's CBS would have given us the

aerial view with extrapolation to PROVE it was smaller than Beck's.

[Parker CA]

21. You have a link for that assertion?

[pinboy3niner]

5. Numbers, schmumbers

I've seen one sattelite photo of the One Nation rally, and it shows crowd size about the same or even less than for Beckkk's Whitestock. Of course, the schools were out for Beckk's event, but not for 10/2.

I thought the One Nation turnout was great, considering. And I saw a real enthusiasm and solidarity there that wasn't in evidence at the teabaggers' rally. Ours may not have had the phony pzazz of a sobbing/hating media host and a shyster/quitter GOP Barbie, but it sure looked a lot more genuine, something that really had heart--and diversity.

I think the most valuable thing about One Nation is that it brought together hundreds of progressive groups in common cause, expanding horizons beyond narrow interests and alliances to a broader solidarity. That has important implications for the future. Beckkk's event--not so much.

[old mark]

6. MSNBC says that "organizers" claim 175,000 - other media say 150,000...

Freepers say the "liberal media" used old clips of RW rallys...but we know that is a lie - all the signs were spelled correctly.

So can we all vote now?


mark

[EV_Ares]

10. They say that because they got caught themselves doing it along with

Hannity when he got caught and Fox news themselves got caught complaining no other networks covered their little right-wing march sometime back and they themselves were using a photo from CNN who had to be there to have the photo.

Bunch of really ignorant jerks.

[Imajika]

8. The lack of photos and aerial shots is odd...

I have been trying to find photos and aerial shots since yesterday as I knew turnout was what most analysts/commentators would really care about.

From watching the One Nation rally and seeing some photos from the monument, it appears to me that the Beck rally had far more people. The problem is I do not know when the photos that are available were taken. The photos of Beck's rally were at its peak, I do not know when the photos of the One Nation rally were shot. The ones I've seen of One Nation on DU this morning were not particularly impressive.

Some One Nation organizers claim 175-200k. This number is patently absurd, but event organizers always throw out ridiculous turnout claims to shape the media coverage.

I believe Madison claimed during his speech that satellite photos proved One Nation was bigger than Beck's rally. This is almost laughable. Where are these satellite photos? Who made this estimate? Why are these photos that would show a larger crowd not released?

"Didn't CBS have a satellite photo count of the Beck rally?"

Yes, they estimated 87K. If that rally had 87K, my best guess is this rally had around half that number - but that is going on the assumption the CBS number is correct. If the CBS estimate wildly underestimated the Beck rally, that would mean One Nation had far more people - but still around half of Beck's rally.

The rally was pretty good in my opinion, particularly the first hour or two. Re-networking the base, getting our GOTV operation going, excellent speakers at the start, etc. But I do not think One Nation had anywhere near the people Beck's rally had, and no one should have set expectations so high considering Beck had an entire network advocating and advertising his rally for months and months and months.

[Tesha]

9. If the shots show large empty areas, then they were taken before about 1:00.

AFTER about 1:00, the only empty areas west of the WWII memorial
where the areas that were "coralled off" to hold the speakers and
Jumbotrons. There were *NO* unfilled areas in the designated
people corrals. We walked both sides of the event all way from
the Smithsonian to the steps of the Lincoln Memorial and back
again and the area West of 17th street was full! It took a long
time to work through all those crowds!

Tesha

[Imajika]

14. Okay, but where are the photos...

...and aerial shots showing this?

That is the problem, I don't see any photos showing no unfilled areas. The ones I've seen show a crowd significantly smaller than Beck's. You would think if the turnout was this great, event organizers would be sure to release pictures or satellite photos or whatever they have. Turnout numbers effect media coverage, and I find it odd that of 400 groups participating in One Nation that no one saw fit to release photos that prove this huge turnout you mention.

[Tesha]

23. The organizers don't own any satellites. And D.C. is closed airspace...

...so you can't just fly your Cessna over the Mall
and snap a few pics.

Tesha

[EV_Ares]

11. Wasn't there a corresponding rally in LA as well as the DC rally?

[Imajika]

15. Yes, there was...

I don't know what the turn out was for that. I only saw it briefly on MSNBC, but it looked like a good, energetic rally.

[pinboy3niner]

18. Yes--there were dozens of 10/2 events in cities around the country

Many who wanted to be in D.C. couldn't, because they had children in school. Beckkk's event was during the schools' summer vacation.

[krispos42]

12. The DC metro system posts user numbers on a regular basis.

I would look up numbers for yesterday and compare them to the Saturday before, the Saturday after, and the day of the Beck rally to make an educated guess.

[Tesha]

24. Well, at 2:44 at Smithsonian, you couldn't get on a train going to the parking at RFK Stadium.

The trains eastbound were jam packed from the earlier stations
(and the Metro was running full rush-hour-sized trains). We
were headed the opposite direction (out towards Dulles) and
got caught up in this huge traffic jam of people who had been
at the rally but were trying to get away *BEFORE* the 5:00 rush.
(We were leaving to catch a 5:35 flight.)

Tesha

[spanone]

13. here's the definitive answer...

:sarcasm:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9246157

[ProgressiveEconomist]

16. LINK: 'Didn't CBS have a satellite photo count of the Beck rally'? YES: 87,000, +/- 9,000

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20015214-503544.html

CBS contracted with AirPhotosLIve.com for that estimate, which CBS claims was the "only scientific estimate",

If CBS employed the same outfit to come up with the size of yesterday's crowd, that would provide the ideal comparison of Beckapalooza and 'One Nation' crowds.

[IDemo]

17. Not a satellite photo

But taken from a "surveillance aerostat balloon", according to your link.

Unless the few images I have seen are from much earlier in the day, there were significantly fewer people yesterday.
There are large areas of grass visible at the sides of the reflection pool, and the huge open grassy area to the
side of the treeline is all but empty. The areas adjacent to the Lincoln memorial and WWll monument appear about the
same as at Whitestock.

Still, the sum total of IQ points between the two events is roughly a brazillion to seven.

[ProgressiveEconomist]

20. CSPAN showed much or the crowd left pretty early. And doesn't a balloon count MORE people

than other methods of crowd estimation?

If the coverage you saw was for the "Justice" or "Education" segments of the 'One Nation' program, then you saw many fewer people than attended the "Jobs" segment, before 2pm. I saw no green grass on the wide shots of the "Jobs" segment, but PLENTY of green grass later in the day.

Now, about surveillance balloons versus satellites: The Beck count included (1) people standing under trees and, apparently, (2) people seen leaving. Both these categories would be hard to include in counts of the 'One Nation' crowd, giving the Beck count an upward bias due to methodology, don't you think?

From http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20015214-503544.html :

"To calculate attendance at the Beck rally, AirPhotosLive.com used what is called a surveillance aerostat balloon to take pictures from both above the event and closer to the ground. ...

The balloon, Westergard said, gave the company the capacity to move up and down, allowing it to photograph people who were standing beneath trees in addition to taking photos from high above.

'We took a lot of shots under the trees and higher up by just changing the balloon altitude,' he said. 'So what might have been a negative with an airplane and certainly a negative with a satellite was a very strong position with a balloon.'

The photos were taken at noon, which Beck's representatives suggested would be the peak of the event, which ran from 10 AM to slightly after 1 PM. Taking the pictures then meant counting both those who were late to the event because of subway or traffic delays and those who left early to avoid the crowds afterward."

[nessa]

19. Are the numbers really that important?....

Our rally is bigger than their rally, then we win? really? Does it really make a difference?

The only numbers that matter are on election day.

[Zax2me]

22. The numbers DON'T MATTER

beck had more people. Obvious, any speculation otherwise is called denial.
What else did he have?
MONTHS of prep time with daily pep rallies on radio, tv, and a willing MM.
Corporate money, buses, support.
An empty message delivered to a large crowd that wasn't sure why they were even there. A privileged class afraid their privileges are not going to be given to them ANYMORE.