WHAT THE FUCK IS IT? WHY CAN'T WE (DEMS) EVER WIN?

[KoKo]

the TeaParty Stuff has BIG MEDIA CAMPAIGN AND BUZZ.

This is ordinary people. Folks here on DU and elsewhere trashed "United for Peace and Justice" and "A.N.S.W.E.R" for all the marches they sponsored around the USA to stop the Invasion of Iraq and after we Invaded Iraq the mass marches went on for years. But, there was backlash by Dems here and the Dem Party about it.

Folks trashed both organizations and they eventually got into a turf war and aren't able to organize anything these days that matched what they did for those of us out here who were so angry we didn't know what to do. They had the permits they had the organizers...but they are both more for Global Human Rights and that didn't sit well with many folks here and across the Democratic Landscape so they trashed the organizations and much of the funding for both got cut when Kerry ran.

We in the Dem Party on the Left (which used to be mainstream) have tough times to deal with. Money cut waiting for Obama to fulfill his promise and a Media that is the worst it's ever been ...even worse than the "McCarthy Era" where you were put on a "List."

Anyone here who thinks they AREN'T on a LIST is a DREAMER. It's worse than McCarthy...and it could go even darker without loosly coalesced groups who showed up in DC Today.

I'm not figuring Comedians are going to save us...but ordinary people. The Comedians will get coverage and Lookers but the GRASSROOTS are those people who turned out in DC Today! Underfunded but sincere...trying to get Obama to listen to them...because they are hurting and disappointed that this Administration promised so much...but the delivery seems to not be working out well for them. Maybe if the Obama Administration/Dem Party had Obama's back then there would have been huge push back over the Negative Tea Party/Koch/Murdoch funded outrage.

But....the fact is...Our Dem's let us down... The DLC Dems/Wall St. Wing of the Party...let us down..

Time and Again...they let us down. And, they have our Presiden'ts EAR... So what are we to do? :shrug: We get rag tag groups together and do the best we can. Even though we have no FUNDING..for a PEOPLE's MOVEMENT...that didn't stop other groups in Civilizations HISTORY from getting CHANGE. Most times, though it mean things got so bad there was a REVOLUTION where people die...innocents die and sometimes the Dictators and Fascists gain the upper hand because the imbalances are so huge in the struggle.

HOW CAN WE BREAK THROUGH? :shrug:

[stray cat]

1. By voting and convincing others with reasonable discourse why they should vote dem

[BrklynLiberal]

2. I understand your frustration.....

I am also tired of being the Charlie Brown to the repukes' Lucy..

[KoKo]

37. Kick that FOOTBALL CHARLIE BROWN... ! Down that Long Dark Road Forever..

Reminds me of the "Donkey with the "Carrot and Stick."

WHO ARE WE? WHAT DO WE STAND FOR? :shrug:

[xfundy]

45. It's time to kick Lucy's lying ass.

Metaphorically speaking, of course.

[CTyankee]

3. I've been in this political stuff for over 30 years and I can tell you: get used to it!

The struggle goes on! It does, it does...

Get used to it because we have to keep on, keeping on. One foot in front of the other...that way...

It's hard but I've been doing this since the 60s and nothing has really changed in terms of the struggle. That just keeps on...we've won some really big ones tho...so don't despair, we'll have others!

[SoCalDem]

7. Yep..

Decades ago. the "norm" was defined by media ...and it was not liberal/progressive/or even slightly left.

Anyone who dares to be "different" is labeled as wacko/ hippie/ tree-huggers/druggies/anarchists/ etc..

In America's mind's-eye, an average American is :

Aunt Bea
Andy Taylor
Ward Cleaver
Marcus Welby
etc



This rightwing default is very valuable to them, and that's why they go to such extremes to keep that myth alive...in words deeds & dress.

[merqz]

42. Not really...

You are stuck in the past... try

The cast of Friends
The beautiful teens of Smallville
The firefighters of Rescue Me
The cops of Law and Order
The working class heroes of Deadliest Catch, etc.
The high school kids of High School Musical(s) I, II, III

[SoCalDem]

53. Run those casts by the 45-70 yr olds in red-state-america ..n/t

[merqz]

54. You didn't say "45-70 yr olds in red-state-america"

You said AMERICA, as in "America's minds-eye". I think you are living in the past.

Although the only fundies I know LOVE High School Musical and Smallville, but I digress.

[RoccoR5955]

9. You hit the nail on the head! I've been in this political stuff for over 40 years

And I can certainly attest to people who have been at this longer than we have. Off the top of my head, my good friend, Pete Seeger for one, has been working in "the movement" since the 40s. He's 92 now, and has NEVER given up. Pete was blacklisted in the 50s, nearly killed in the Peekskill riots in the 60s, worked for the environment in the 70s, and 80s, and he's like the Energizer Bunny. He just keeps going, and going, and going! Pete is probably the oldest of my friends who are long-time activists, but I can name plenty here in the Hudson Valley. You wouldn't know their names, but they are upwards into their 60s and 70s. If these people can keep the fight going, I certainly can. It's my patriotic duty to see to it that our country constantly strives to do better. If we give up, what are we supposed to say to those who follow us?

If you doubt that WE THE PEOPLE are the ones who are always the ones who uplift the cause of justice, peace, and equality in this country, you should read "A People's History of the United States," by Howard Zinn. He does a lot to explain things that you never learned in school about the history of our country, and just who got the changes that benefit all of us, and not just the elite.

[KoKo]

11. It "goes on" since JFK for me....so how long before I'm DEAD?

HOW LONG...

Something is WRONG WITH THE MOVEMENT...because if people get so Old they Die...then WHAT GOOD IS THAT MOVEMENT? :shrug: SERIOUSLY!

[CTyankee]

14. Oh, it goes on! It's just a constant struggle, that's all!

What were you expecting? A little tussle and that's it?

Oh, no. Power never gives up without a struggle; it never has and it never will.

Don't mope. It's OK. We're on the right side. It's just that it's a big struggle. We can't win if we don't fight.

So, let's FIGHT, OK?!

[KoKo]

19. A "little tussel" voting for Dems since JFK? Ummm have some years on you "big guy"

...that you have Balls to Lecture.. But...whatever...LOL's ...It's all in the GAME...Isn't it?

TRIVIALIZE REAL COMPLAINTS... MAKE FUN of FELLOW DEMS...who have MORE YEARS "UNDER BELT."

But...I expect you to come forward and say you are in your 60's and you are STILL HOLDING ON! LOL's ...and how would I verify YOUR AGE and CREDS against MINE?

We might be BOTH LYING...but I gotta TELL YOU...YOU CAN BELIEVE...THIS DU'er ISN'T LYING!

[CTyankee]

24. I am 71 years old and a woman. I have been voting in elections since 1960.

Sorry I don't fit your mold, but hey, don't get upset, OK?

Yep, I voted for JFK at the tender age of 21. Been voting Dem ever since.

Yep, still holding on...still fighting...it's a long struggle and you of all people should know that, don't you?

Oh well,...we'll get there one day...

[KoKo]

38. All things take time...but we've voted for CHANGE so MANY TIMES..surely you must be Frustrated?

We shall ALL BE DEAD before we see REAL CHANGE and what about our kids? Do you want to TELL THEM...CHANGE WILL TAKE UNTIL THEY ARE BANKRUPT DEAD?

I can't deal with this. There are MAJOR PROBLEMS.. What do you think they might be? :shrug: That is takes so long you will be DEAD? ??????

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[babylonsister]

5. Because Dems who feel let down are part of the problem?

:shrug:

How about acknowledging for a change things that have happened that are positive? Why do some Dems always feel let down? This is the most progressive admin in many years, yet the moaners and groaners continue.

If you think a progressive can win the nom, name someone. I can't think of one person who has the ability to win over a majority of the country, at least not now. And even if they did, their agenda wouldn't be progressive; it wouldn't be tolerated. Look at all the crap this admin is getting, from both sides, and let me know if a progressive just might do it differently and thus sway everyone's minds.

[KoKo]

8. Go Deeper "Babylon"....you know and FEEL and SEE IT...and you Gotta have a better Opinion than THIS

ONE!

Come on...you see it, know it, feel it...TIMES ARE NOT GOOD...and WAITING? HOW LONG ?????

[RoccoR5955]

12. How long you say? How long did it take to get into this mess?

20, 30 years? Do you think that someone is going to wave a magic wand and make things better? This administration has been under intense opposition, making it nearly impossible to get ANYTHING done. We should thank Obama and his crew for all that they HAVE done. If it was Panama John and Caribou Barbie in office now, do you think that things would have been better, or worse? Most of the time, we have to be grateful for small gains main. At least we are heading in the right direction.

[babylonsister]

13. Pardon me? I don't have to feel let down like you do, sorry.

And I'm using my brain instead of impulses to recognize this wasn't going to happen overnight, or even in two years.

So be disappointed; you're very good at it.

[KoKo]

17. Your last sentence was a "Cheap Shot!" You know I'm a Dem working for Dems...Don't Trash me with

this kind of Crap!

[babylonsister]

21. Hey. You started an OP on a discussion forum. Sorry if you

don't like the responses. Did you think everyone would agree with you? :shrug:

And no, it wasn't a cheap shot, even if you choose to perceive it that way.

[KoKo]

23. You and I have been on DU long enough to know: "We are BOTH SERIOUS!"

GET SERIOUS! What are the ISSUES we could both agree on? Or...can we NEVER AGREE...even though You and I have BEEN HERE ON DU...FOREVER?

:shrug:

[babylonsister]

25. Koko, stop chiding me and lose the caps. I don't need a finger

wagging from you. You're now talking about something that has nothing to do with your OP. Enough.

[KoKo]

27. I chide you...because I see and know your "good heart" for being here with ME...all these years!

Believe me........! I don't chide you lightly!

[vi5]

6. As long as enough dems play the corporate game....

..it's going to stay like this. If not get worse. There is just too large a contingent of "Democrats" who have internalized every republican criticism over the past 40 odd years.

The republicans are having the same effect on the democratic party as they did the media. If they "work the ref" enough so that the party/people in question begin to doubt themselves, then they win.

They trumpeted the "liberal media" bullshit for so fucking long that the media started to believe it about themselves and went out of their way to prove they weren't.

They've trumpeted about Dems being anti business and pro-tax for so fucking long that now a sizable enough contingent of elected dems run scared and try to overcompensate at the slightest thing they do that might be pro the average person and anti-corporate.

They've done the same with the military, foreign policy, and education as well.

[peacetalksforall]

10. I didn't get to watch the entire event and I was hardly in a position to go there because of

our quickly descending income and mounting bills, singly and collectively. Even to the point of allowing our votes to be stolen.

I haven't seen a list of who was not there, but I can guess = the Bilderberg, Tri-Lateral, Council on Foreign Relations Democrate - the psuedo Democrats. The DLC.

Slowly we learn.

Success for the B, T/L, CFR Groups is heavily reliance on no protests,i.e., total submissiveness.

Even to the point of allowing our votes to be stolen without a whimper, spying and immunity, torture and rendition, wall street crimes against the people of this country and the world.

[MineralMan]

15. So, whenever a real lefty progressive tries to run in a primary,

he or she almost always is a non-starter. As long as we have the system we have, that's likely to keep happening. Like it or not, this country doesn't seem to want that edge of the political spectrum to gain power. I don't like it, but I can't, for the life of me, figure out a way to change it.

Dennis Kucinich runs. He never wins a single primary. What lesson do we take from that? I like Dennis, mostly, but he's a non-starter. If someone could name anyone on the left who might have any chance of succeeding at the national level, I'd love to hear the name. So, far, that request has led to nothing but crickets.

I love Al Franken. I helped him get elected. As a Presidential candidate, though, he'd have no more luck than Kucinich did. Not a single primary would he win.

So, if you know of a name, put it out there. But, it has to be someone who has a chance of winning some primaries in places he or she doesn't live. It has to be someone who can bring in votes, not only from the left edge, but from places very near the center of the voting public's sensibilities. There is no other way.

I think that what we have to do is do this on a local level, on a state level, and on an organized educational level. Nothing else can possibly work. To think it can is delusional.

[KoKo]

28. "MM" THEN...HOW do we CHANGE THIS SYTSEM? Excuse the Shout...but aren't so many of us Frustrated?

You seem to be very "down" on Franken...but, yet, I see you as to the Right of where I stand. Like you would have voted for NAFTA/GAT...and you loved Rahm Emmanuel..(thought he was an excellent pick) and would have voted (if you were in House or Senate) to get Ride of Glass-Steagall and been fine with Greenpan's ZERO INTEREST RATES that helped cause the MORTGAGE/CREDIT FIASCO that hurt so many folks out there both Dems and Repug.

YET the REPUGS funded by MORE EVIL than Mellon-Scaife (funding Monica/Blue Dress Semen Stains) funding "Newsweek Mag" and other sites manage to GO FORWARD... They get the MSM falling all over them.

So....Where are YOU on any of this? Seems you are always pushing more misguided Clintonomics/Rubin/Wall Street/Globilization ...when you see your fellow Democrats SUFFERING from ALL OF THIS?

So...WHERE DO YOU STAND? What ARE YOU FOR? What do YOU PROPOSE TO FIX this MIGHTY COLLUSION between CLINTON/DLC and the REPUGS?

WHERE IS OBAMA ON ALL OF THIS...In YOUR OPINON? :shrug:

[MineralMan]

29. Well, to start with, I'm very up on Franken. Remember, I worked

on getting him elected. I do not believe that he could make a serious Presidential run with any success. He's a great Senator for Minnesota, though. I'm not to the Right of you, either. You don't know me at all. I do know one thing, though, typing in ALL CAPS on an internet forum isn't going to get anything done. Where am I? I'm in a place where not electing Republicans is a very, very good thing. We don't seem to be able to elect enough people on the left edge to get anything amazing done, so I'm working to keep Republicans out of office.

As I said, you know nothing about me. You just think you do, I guess.

Carry on...

[KoKo]

33. Well what I know about you ...is that we always seem to be oppostite here on DU on Issues

both of us are involved in and care deeply about. I was a huge supporter of Franken getting IN. I was so proud he MADE IT!

yet, the posts I've read of yours seem to trash some of us who are working for Dem Party Reform. You seem to not understand those of us who feel the two Parties are too Close Together.

I've never felt that you were as much into REFORM of Dem Party as I would have been from your posts. But, if you worked for Al Franken...how could this be?

Does it mean that we here posting have more in common with each other than you would think? :shrug:

[MineralMan]

35. Indeed. We have far more in common that we have differences.

It's a matter of practicality. Right now, there's an election coming up. After that election, I'll be back trying to get real progressives nominated for office, just like I always have. Just now, though, I have another priority, and that's keeping Republicans out of office.

Of course I supported Al Franken. I wish we could get a bunch more like him elected. We barely managed it in Minnesota. I don't think our chances are too good in, say Arkansas, or Alabama, or Arizona. I'll settle for any sort of Democrat in any of those places. Of course, I don't live there, so I'm not part of their politics. I'm in Minnesota. This year, I'm trying desperately to kick Michele Bachmann out of office. Now Tarryl Clark is nobody's rabid progressive. But she's damn sure not a teabagger, and will caucus with the Democrats, so I'm working for her as hard as I can, along with my district's progressive Congresswoman, Betty McCollum.

I'm 65 years old. I do practical things. When I was a younger man, I watched MLK speak in Montgomery right after crossing that bridge. I stood in front of the Pentagon, too, more than once. These days, I'm not on the street, except to knock on doors and try to get folks to vote for the Democrat on November 2. That's what I'm doing. That's who I am right now.

Check back with me after the election. I should have some time for talking about trying to find some progressives who have a chance in future elections. Not right now.

[KoKo]

41. Thanks...I can't agree with your "waiting" but I'm glad to know

you aren't what I thought you were. I hope you will understand when I post that I'm not what you think (pre-judge) what I am, either.

I'm working for better Dems...we might differ on what "better" is. But, at some point I think we could BOTH make a better party... But, I would hope you'd move farther towards My and Mine Positition than where you are now ...in some respects...and that after the coming years we will be more together than now.

I repect you for your honest answer...even if I am more differing than you about "basic problems" and "solutions" for our party.

But...nice reply...and a "hand to you in shakes." But...I'm watching my BACK. :D...just in case.

Peace!

[vi5]

39. Our leadership is part of the problem...

They don't support or endorse or provide the assistance needed for anyone like that to gain any kind of leverage and worse yet, actively seem to work against them or make apologies for them. Most of the people in positions of power within the party, have internalized every right wing talking point about Democrats and liberals over the past 30 or 40 years. So they keep all true progressives in the basement, until they need their presence to get out the liberal vote, support, or money. When our leadership acts like they are embarrased of someone like Kucinich or Franken or Dean or whoever, then how the hell do we expect the media or anyone else to take us seriously?

It would be one thing if I felt like as a party we were putting forth leaders and putting people in charge who tried to do this, and were proud supporters of liberal positions, but they were just beaten back by either the republican war chest, or corporations, or the media or whatever. And those factors definitely hurt us as well. But when we put people in charge who act and behave and lead us as though they buy into the right wing talking points about us, and are embarrassed of or apologizing for or continually compromising liberal positions, then that is one of the biggest factors.

The exception has been when someone like Dean was in charge of the DNC. His focus was on supporting all dems at all times. Not worrying about whether someone or some candidate would make people think the party was too liberal or too in bed with unions or teachers, or gays, or anti-war activists, or too anti corporate.

But sadly far too many in our leadership prove to be our own worst enemies by acting like they are embarrassed of the more liberal elements on the left. Except when they want their votes, support, time, or money.

So yeah, I agree it's an uphill battle. And when we stop putting people in charge of our party and our leadership and what have you who act as ashamed at best or contemptuous at worst of liberal values and positions, and who help us move the party in that direction rather than just enabling some pathetic incumbent protection racket, then maybe I'll believe the "Oh poor little us. It's just the way the country is" type of routine.

And that's not even getting into the notion of when candidates run as progressives, espouse progressive values and positions, and WIN THE DAMN ELECTIONS, and then betray those values when in office or actively fight against them or only half heartedly support them.

So yeah, when so many in our own party prove to be our own worst enemies at times then I'll start believing that this is just the way it is.

[KoKo]

44. Our Leadership in Senate has been so weak...Agree ..it's sad..they don't listen to Petitions/Phone/

Fax...and even though our House Members seem more responsive they have to be voted on every two years which means they get "elected" and immediately have to run to get more money to stay in office. Yet, our Senate seems even worse although it's running every 8 years for them.

WE MUST GET PUBLICALLY FINACED ELECTIONS IN PLACE. Supreme Courts allowance of Corporations (who don't even need to declare in the ad on Cables and Elsewhere...where they get there funding!... That was indeed a terrible blow against our Democracy.

If we thought the Taliban and Al Queda were sponsoring Elections in Iraq and Afghanistan could we JUSTIFY THE TWO WARS WE ARE SPENDING MONEY ON THERE? WHAT ABOUT THIS "FREEDOM/DEMOCRACY?"

Does ANYONE EVER THINK ABOUT ALLOWING "DEFENSE CONTRACTORS" to do ADS CAMPAIGNS FOR CANDIDATES in Countries we are AT WAR WITH...while at HOME/USA...we ALLOW the SAME SUSPECTS (Defense Contractors/NeoCon Interest Groups/MIC/Arms Suppliers and their Connection) to INFLUENCE our OWN ELECTIONS!

WHAT's WITH THAT? :shrug:

It's abominable to Me..but many Dems think it's OKAY...if we are SAFE from TERRORISTS...and the rest of us are just "Peace Niks" who live in some reverie of the "1960's" like we just CAN'T GET OVER IT! :eyes:

[Scruffy1]

40. I think your right.

Been around politics for over forty years and know the great majority of voters are too tied up with their own life and problems to get that seriously involved. I know the years I spent raising children left me no time, money or energy for anything, but now that their pretty much gone I can devote myself to politics. We have always relied on the very young and the old like me who have the time to get the organizing done. If we are to counteract the media we have to do it one person at a time and this can only be done through grass roots organizing. They have a machine with billions. We have a mouth and shoe leather.

Although I would be considered on the left fringe I have no problem working for candidates like Al who I really consider a centrist because they beat the hell out of the alternative and I know people as far to the left as me would never get elected. But I think its important to voice my opinions at least to keep moving the center over.

[Ruby the Liberal]

16. Bill Maher (paraphrased): The D in Democrats stands for passing, but just barely

We need a legion of Graysons, Weiners, Deans...

We have a legion of (Blanche) Lincolns, (Ben) Nelsons and (Harry) Reids...

Harry Truman once said that given the choice of a Democrat who acts like a Republican and a true Republican, voters will choose the latter every time.

Running to the center is the problem. People want our Reps to stand for something. Anything. Just stand for something.

[CTyankee]

20. WE have to be hawking the liberal brand!

I think the people want liberals to just stand up to what is best for the people of this country. As long as we do this, we'll be fine. Get into the message of the other side, find the holes they obviously have, and then go after them...

We should be honoring the working people of this country, not demeaning them, and that is what the Right is doing...it's disgusting and should be characterized as such!

[KoKo]

30. Then WHY AREN'T WE HAWKING the LIBERAL BRAND... Excuse Shout...but FRUSTRATION!

WHAT THE FUCK is going ON that WE AREN'T CHEERING? WHY are we the Underdogs ...Once again?

If it's just the Mainstream Media...then WHY HAVEN't DEMS or OBAMA done SOMETHING ABOUT IT? Why wasn't this the FIRST PROJECT by our new Administration?

We here on DU fought since the 2000 SELECTION for FAIR MEDIA/FREE MEDIA ...we worked so hard and now we are UNDERDOGS once again? AND...we are supposed to BLAME IT ON REPUGS? GIVE ME A BREAK!

[ProSense]

52. "Excuse shout"?

Exactly what are you expecting to accomplish with this thread? The OP is rambling, and this response is equally so.

" AND...we are supposed to BLAME IT ON REPUGS? GIVE ME A BREAK!"

Yes, it's their fault.

If you can't see that, let Senator Sanders explain it to you.

[WeekendWarrior]

18. In order to break through, you have to

take the media out of the hands of the people who currently control it. They control the message.

We've managed to do this to a large degree thanks to the Internet, but when the media controls the message, the politicians cower in fear and follow along. And don't be fooled into thinking it's the other way around.

[alphafemale]

22. A.N.S.W.E.R. was always actually pretty fucking embarressing

My thought was always,to have a rally, we have to put up with hearing this litany of lunatics?

There are plenty of rich liberals or more mainstream progressive foundations which could have just as well sponsored a rally. I gave up on the DC marches because of ANSWER.

[KoKo]

26. I know...I read so many DU Posters carrying on about "Free Mumia" just didn't cut it!

But isn't that slicing and dicing while the Repugs put up the most Idiotic Candidates anyone could NOT EVEN IMAGINE getting MEDIA TIME..Yet they DO...and "MUMIA" is someone that is only a figment of Imagination by "A.N.S.W.E.R." Not worth time...some distraction from Dem Partisan Demonstrations..

WHO THE HELL IS "MUMIA?"

[alphafemale]

31. um...Mumia is a cop killer on death row

Some people think he was framed but he probably did it. That's the kind of shit ANSWER sponsors though.

It's a huge progressive issue. In some peoples mind you're not progressive enough if you're not sure about setting Mumia Free.

And that's why I gave up on the DC rallys.

[KoKo]

32. But...what if "Mumia" really deserves to be FREE? I understand what you say about

folks screaming about someone you aren't sure is guilty or not..and you seem them "off onto side issues."

But, "screaming aside" ...shouldn't MORE OF US BE SCREAMING about FREE AMERICA along with MUMIA and and the OTHERS? Should we leave "Human Rights" on the "side of the road?"

There are groups working for Human Rights for Decades...maybe they will be working for US and the Corporations CONTINUE OUTSOURCING JOBs in the MIDST if AMERICAN WORKERS LOSING JOBS EVERY DAY TO OUTSOURCING?

MAYBE THIS ALL COMES HOME TO ROOST...ON US! AND..that the HUMAN RIGHTS FOLKS saw ALL OF IT...before WE WOKE UP that it's not just MUMIA...it's US!

[alphafemale]

34. No

Those side issues that were brought up just annoyed people

[KoKo]

36. But...Dem Party is "Inclusive" ...fights for those who have No Rights?

Is that what we are about..or Not? :shrug: Gays in Military? They've ALWAYS BEEN THERE...why do they have to FIGHT for THEIR RIGHTS? Along with other's forgotten who have nobody fighting for them except some what many here would call "FRINGE GROUPS" like Human Rights Organizations? Don't THEY have a RIGHT TO SPEAK ALSO! :shrug:

[alphafemale]

47. But...

People came there to oppose war...

They didn't give two shakes of a snails tail about the crap ANSWER speakers lined uo,

[KoKo]

48. I know...but sad thing is that there was no "Anti War Movement" organized to get the Permits...

and those two groups knew how to do it fast. We had to take what we could get to try to STOP BUSH'S WAR/IRAQ and "beggars couldn't be choosers" at that point in history.

Yeah...I know folks felt that the Free Mumia and the Native American who has been incarcerated (seemingly Unfairly for Years). distracted us from the "Anti-Iraq Invasion" but WHO did we HAVE who could organize at that point? The Vietnam folks were long gone...the NeoCons had done their work...and folks didn't know it could get so bad. They needed a place to mobilize FAST and United for Peace and Justic and A.N.S.W.E.R. had the Permits and the organizing. They WERE NOT ASLEEP on the JOB for YEARS...and they COULD DO IT. We had to go with them.

And, that goes back to my question? WHO ARE WE DEMS? Why are we NOT OUR OWN GROUP that we COULD BE TRASHED BY THE RW like WE ARE...and USED AND ABUSED BY COURTS, BUSH I AND II, REAGAIN, NIXON, CLINTON?

WHO ARE WE? We are always "LOOKING FOR A LEADER." WE CAN'T SEEM TO MAKE OUR OWN WORK FOR US! WHY? :shrug:

[Nevernose]

49. Mumia's a losing issue because he's guilty as shit

Thing is, he didn't get a fair trial, either, or fair appeals. That seems to me to be more of an issue for lawyers than for protestors. If you're willing to accept my premise -- that he's guilty but never received a fair trial -- then Mumia just doesn't have the needed moral impeccability needed for a cause.

Peltier, however, is innocent. If liberals really want to fight the good fight, he's the case. I suspect that since American Indians don't have the same money or influence as African American activists do, his case doesn't get the same attention.

I still agree with ANSWER in principle, but they'd be a hell of a lot more productive if they were more focused.

[nashville_brook]

43. and the teabaggers aren't embarrassing? aren't lunatics? wrt media coverage --

this doesn't wash.

[KoKo]

46. Media makes their "movement" BIGGER THAN IT IS...Look at what they've done for YEARS!

READ...It's horrible what is going on. We have little clout against our SUPRME COURT! REMEMBER the SUMPREMES STOLE the 2000 ELECTION...and the other groups stole 2004 against a VERY WEAKENED DEM PARTY.

WHY ID OUR DEM PARTY SO WEAK? AFTER ALL THESE YEARS...and EXPOSURE of WHAT WAS DONE...WE ROLL OVER AND BLAME EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE....

WE need to TAKE REPONSIBILITY!

[unkachuck]

50. K&R....n/t

[alarimer]

51. Because the people we elect don't actually fight for the right thing.

Even if they start out with good intentions, they eventually (most of them) become co-opted by the money poured into their campaign coffers by big business and by the horse-trading that goes on. The problem is Washington insiders, mostly and they ALL become Washington insiders and divorced from our reality.

REAL campaign finance reform would start with public financing of all campaigns. No private money from anyone. Not even yours or mine. Money, especially corporate money, is a cancer on the system and the REAL reason nothing gets done. Both parties are in thrall to one set of corporate interests or another because of the campaign contributions and so they sell us out. They sell us out so their sugar daddies kept the money coming. The money from you and me is just a drop in the bucket in comparison.

They won't listen to us because we haven't got the money. No matter how we organize, it simply will not matter without meaningful campaign finance reform.

[bvar22]

55. When?

When the Working Class & The Poor realize we have more in common with each other than we have in common with the Oligarchs running BOTH Political Parties, we will have "CHANGE".

As long as they can keep us divided on wedge issues, marketing rhetoric, and empty promises, we will keep fighting each other.

The Working Class & The Poor have been successful at reclaiming their governments in Latin America. If we use their blueprint, we can do it here.

[Arugula Latte]

56. Campaign finance reform is the key

Until that happens we are just an oligarchy.

[KoKo]

57. It's definitely the Key..would cut down lobbyists..would change the whole system so that Small State

don't get so much funding from the Lobbyists (for small bucks) that we get folks like Harry Reid from Nevada ruling the Senate.

I'm also in favor of the Austrailian system of fining people who don't vote. How you could do it with our huge population, I don't know...but forcing people in a Democracy to vote is Democratic...because they should have the option of "writing in a candidates name" which might give rise to a Third Party. Or they can say "abstain" on the form but at least they had to get their butt out there and make a decision that the Pollsters and Lobbyists would have to notice.

Getting the money out of elections would be like trying to get "Single Payer" for Health Care through this corrupt system...but we have to start somewhere. It may take a decade or more...but it could be done with effort for CHANGE WE CAN BELIEVE IN!