My kids' school rents space to a Baptist church on Sunday

[panader0]

At least I think the church pays rent. I know that a good portion of my taxes go to the school district.
I kinda like Buddhism myself, I wonder if the school would rent to a Buddhist church. I doubt it. I thought there was this separation of church and state thing in the Constitution. As a taxpayer I am bummed about this. On one hand, I think it's no big deal, the school probably needs the money, and let it go. On the other I wonder, where does the money go? Would they rent to other faiths? Should religion be in school buildings, even on weekends? What do you think?

[rwenos]

1. After-School Meetings

I can't give you the case cite, but the Supremes have already held that a religious organization can use classrooms for after-school meetings. Sunday meetings are probably the same. It seems weird, but I don't think it will change anytime soon.

As a taxpayer, you have a right to ask your local school board if the Christ-ies are paying rent. My advice: Write the local school board a letter and ask them. CC the local ACLU chapter and the local newspaper.

[patrice]

2. Common practice around here.

School seems like a real good source of leads the for the church, doesn't it. Oh I know nothing official would transpire in making those contacts available, but come on now, there'd be plenty of opportunities for the paths of the facility's dual tennants to cross.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

3. If It's Not During School Hours Then There Is No Problem. This Is Taking The Whole 'Separation'

thing too far in my opinion.

For the life of me I can't understand your objection to this or why you find it so distasteful somehow. Are they hurting you in some way? Why so up in arms? Nothing is being done wrong here.

[panader0]

7. I didn't pay taxes to build a Baptist Church

[rwenos]

11. So . . .

You've been advised this particular practice is legal, and that there are some folks on our side of the political spectrum who have no problem with it. I've even suggested you take some practical steps to get more information.

Yet you still want to make a big thing out of this. Why?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

13. Just A Tad Melodramatic Of A Delcaration No?

Your taxes didn't build one. It built a school. That school is used to educate students during school hours. If they rent out some space to a Baptist church on Sundays during non-school hours then it is not only none of your business but also absolutely nothing wrong with it. So again, this hurts you how? Are they like leaving bibles under each student's desk to find when they return to school, with propaganda stuffed inside to warp their wee little minds or something? What is the objection? Just the fact that some Baptists are innocently using school space outside of school hours to get together and learn peacefully? This bothers you why?

Sorry, but there's not a thing wrong here.

[davidinalameda]

21. what is it Monday through Friday

not a baptist church?

[Redstone]

4. So what? Sorry to sound hostile, but what's your problem with this?

Your town is NOT mixing "church and state," because they're renting out the school to a church during a time when the school is NOT in session.

I'm about the least religious guy you'll find, but my town rents two of the school auditoriums out to churches for Sunday services, and I have NO problem with that.

(And if you want to find out where the money goes, just go down to your town hall and ask. They'll tell you.)

Redstone

[Clark2008]

30. And, personally, I like the fact that they're able to make money

off a building that, on weekends and all summer, doesn't produce anything of value at all (no education or, in this case, revenue).

[TahitiNut]

5. I'm a staunch fan of having the schools be centers of community activities.

The more the merrier, imho. I wish senior centers were co-located with schools and members of the community were integrated into the education process far more than currently exists. The idea of a school as some sterile, isolated, artificial environment might be easier for those whose favorite class was with lab rats and Skinner boxes, but it stinks in terms of offering the 'village' experience that nurtures our emotional and intellectual development. "Exclusive" use facilities are a waste of resources and horribly isolationist, imho.

[Journeyman]

14. Wow. That's a great idea -- co-locate Senior Centers at the schools. . .

have to a be a lot of regulations, and some seniors shouldn't be around children, but for those who can contribute, what a great way to give meaning to their lives and enhance the learning experience.

It's ideas like that -- economical, effective use of available resources that benefit a range of people -- that we as a society need to investigate.

[TahitiNut]

17. Thanks. There's a pre-school at the local senior center that's adjacent to the high school

I noticed the playground outside when I went by and so I went in and explored. It felt 'right.'

I've thought for a long time that schools, particularly the high schools, shouldn't be on isolated tracts of land segregated from everything including housing, the civil courts, the civic center, the library, the post office, the police, etc. It creates an artificial 'world' from which many (students AND teachers) find difficulty finding an exit. I remember high school and having no tactile sense of what was presented - it was sterile. Maybe that's why I felt obliged to add a bit of mess (and drama), a lot like most of us do.

It just seems to me that that 'messy thing' called life and a community is there - an education resource that we couldn't construct in the classroom if we tried. I like lemonade. We ought to make more of it.

[Bluerthanblue]

40. It is a really

great idea! Our local HeadStart Program operates in the same reconditioned "old graded school" building- as the Senior Center, A community DayCare, CAP Offices and Thrift Shop. The Senior Center often overlaps with the HeadStart program as well as the daycare center-
When my kids were little they really enjoyed having so many "Grammies" and "Poppas". :)

The Seniors got serenaded by the kids, celebrated seasons, holidays, b-days together. It is a win/win situation.

I really like your perspective TahitiNut!

There are also a few progressive churches in the area which make use of their buildings as Homeless Shelters, food pantries, Adult Ed outreach centers etc.

We have so many wonderful buildings that are being wasted- and many opportunities to build and strengthen community that are waiting to be re-discovered.

great post! Thanks for the inspirational reminder:hi:

blu

[Balbus]

6. I think...

that your attempt to stir up false outrage is failing miserably so far. Keep at it.

[panader0]

10. I am asking an opinion. I said "on one hand and on the other "

that's two sides. No outrage.

[murielm99]

20. Most of the posters here

seem to think you have nothing to worry about. There is nothing illegal about this, and nothing seems to be unethical.

I would agree with most of the posters, were it not for an uneasy situation that is developing in my small town.

A very fundamentalist church from another community has started a branch here. They rent our elementary school on Sundays. This church has done divisive things in the community. They have tried to cause problems within our community's council of churches. (We have an excellent council of churches. We actually get the Baptists and Catholics to cooperate with each other). This church poaches members from other churches quite aggressively, and has caused family members to argue with each other over membership. Some members pressure their coworkers to attend services, in ways that seem to extend beyond the usual fundie proselytizing.

I would not have paid much attention to them, but one of the Democrats in my precinct called me with her concerns. She wanted to know if they were paying rent, and how the decision to rent to them came about. I told her to ask a school board member, but she was reluctant for a number of reasons. I told her I would find out for her. I told her that I really did not think this should be a concern, even for someone who is non-religious. Then she told me how this church's main branch, in another community, had split her family. She has a sister who does not speak to her. I still thought she was being too sensitive, until I saw these people in action. Some of these fundie types have to be seen to be believed.

It is probably too late for your school board to rescind its decision to rent to the Baptists. And the Baptists are surely doing no harm. The same is not true in my community. Possibly, school boards have to develop written policies with careful definitions about the types of renters they will accept.

[progdonkey]

8. if all groups are being treated fairly, it's fine...

The simple fact that a religious group is using school grounds is not a problem (just as there's no prohibition from the public engaging in religious displays in the public square). The only way it would become an issue is if one group is shown favoritism over another. If a local Buddhist temple goes through the same hoops as a Christian church but the Buddhists are denied the use of the school grounds and the Christians aren't, then the school has a huge problem on its hands. If it seems like every Sunday there's a Christian group having a meeting there, it's not necessarily a problem if they signed up every week like everyone else could, and it's simply the case that no Muslim or Hindu group, etc. decided to sign up.

It's a perfectly fine way for a school to raise some extra funds when they have a huge assembly hall that would otherwise be empty. The only requirement is that the rules for use are clear and fair.

[Solo_in_MD]

9. Many posters think you are trolling with this, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt

1) Its legal, and they have to rent to any group who meets whatever standard is set which normally includes insurance and leaving it clean. Buddist bucks are just as good as Xtian bucks.

2) Ask the school district about rent and how it is spent. Most likely goes into the general fund.

3) Maximizing the use of buildings is a good thing

[MADem]

19. Actually, that is a good point, the maximizing use bit. Especially in winter!

People throw off heat--the more people you have in a building at the weekend, the more you save on fuel to keep the joint heated.

[AlCzervik]

12. if it's a business transaction than i don't see it as a problem, i would ask if they rent

to other religious groups if they asked.

[LostinVA]

34. I et they do, and other community organizations, too

They do that around here, too. The money goes directly to the school.


Some of the "rents" are free, like an ESL class for immigrants.

[Selatius]

15. If it is not occuring during school hours, I believe it's legal according to my understanding

Now, if a Buddhist group were to ask to rent some space not during school hours and were denied without what would be defined as a valid reason, then there could be a bona fide case of violation of civil rights laws.

[Erika]

16. Schools should be used for learning purposes

Whether they be Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, etc.

[Sanctified]

18. If they are paying rent then they are covering the cost.

So your tax money is not being used to fund Christianity.

[peace13]

22. I understand your concerns.

In our area churches, child care businesses, you name it, have rented our schools. I doubt that the pittance of rent collected offsets the wear and tear on the property. There may be some social value for extending the use of the building, however. I would like to apologize for those here who have jumped on you. I have noticed that more and more we have very straight line thinkers here at DU who tend to abuse the poster rather than contribute to the conversation. Peace to you, kim

[Swamp Rat]

23. If they pay rent it's ok by me, with one stipulation:

After hours student/educational events must take precedence with regard to the usage and access of school facilities. Efficient scheduling methods and practices should prevent conflicts of interest.

[Raine]

24. Several of the high schools in my town rent themselves

out to movie and TV companies, they film there all the time on weekends. Also the high school that I graduated from is the one they used on Beverly Hills 90210 and Buffy the Vampire Slayer. It seems that the schools need extra money and it has to come from somewhere.

[sandnsea]

25. More indoctrination

It's legal as far as I know, but I agree with you. I don't see how people are supposed to make up their own mind about religion when it's in the pledge, on the money and at the school on Sunday morning. This is where everybody gets the idea that we're a "Christian nation".

[elocs]

26. It is common where I live too and I have no problem with it.

It's legal and a good number of these people may be my neighbors or coworkers. They are by and large good people and although I am an atheist I am not hostile to religion and give them the benefit of the doubt not wanting to tar a whole group of people by the actions of a relatively few. The Buddhist argument is weak since it is highly unlikely that such a group exists in the town or would want to rent space at the school. If we don't want our kids to be indoctrinated by religion then we should have more faith in them and in the values we have instilled in them. They should not be so gullible to fall for the first religious pitch or testimony they hear. They may just find that people are people whether they are Christian, Buddhist, or nonreligious.

[gollygee]

27. I'm not religious and I don't have a problem with this

This isn't the school trying to indoctrinate students. They have a building that doesn't get much use on weekends, and there's a church group that needs a building on weekends. The building is available, I'm sure they're paying rent, and I am pretty confident they'd rent out to just about any organization on weekends. The only problem with religion and schools is religion and actual teaching and students in schools. It isn't about the buildings.

[KharmaTrain]

28. We Have The Same Here...And I'll Take The Money

Several years ago a church went before our school board asking to rent on of the school's on Sunday morning from 8am-1pm. At first, there was a massive uproar (including yours truly), but then we found out the congregation would be paying $2500 a week...that's nearly 40k a year...the salary of a teacher or the addition of new books or computers.

It's worked well here. The church keeps to themselves...always are polite and clean up after they use the auditorium. These people never have approached any of us or our children to try to convert them and it's provided even more revenues for a school district that is one of many that got "left behind" during the boooosh regime.

It's one thing for a school district to annoint a religion or attempt to include it in a cirriculum...but this is totally seperate...and these are tax paying members of our community.

[SayWhatYo]

43. Wow..

$2,500 for five hours??? That seems a bit high, no?

[KharmaTrain]

45. It Was Set That Way

This is a rich congregation, they just don't want the hassles of their own property...which could cost millions just for the land. I may have the exact figure off, but not by much...there's usually at least 200-300 people at their services and surely the plate gets passed....that's only $10 per person.

[distantearlywarning]

29. This is pretty common.

And yes, they very well might rent to a Buddhist group. The schools where I live rent to all sorts of groups - secular, religious, or whatever. It's just a way to make a little extra money.

It personally wouldn't bother me as long as it wasn't during school hours.

[acmavm]

31. Historically shools have been meeting places for all kinds of things. This

complaining about everything is what makes us look so petty. As long as the Baptists aren't dragging kids off the street and forcing the to sit through indoctrination sessions, what's the beef?

I really hate to have to say this but EVERYTHING IS NOT A DAMN RELIGIOUS/POLITICAL CONSPIRACY. Sometimes, as in this case, it is because the building is an ideal place to meet. And if they rent the place fairly to others who would be willing to pay, why piss and moan about it?

[rucky]

32. I wouldn't sweat it.

I guess that makes me a not-so-radical secularist. A "lame-ass secularist?"

[Ekirh]

33. Let see here . .

It's on a Sunday.. so not school hours

They are paying rent . . so the school makes a nice chunk of change off of it . ..

Nope, don't see any problems here.

I know the middle school I go to also does the same thing.. rents to a group on Sunday. . . . as long as it's not during school hours, and they are making some money from it . . . I don't see it being a problem. Not like they are telling the church to come in and tell our students anything you want to.

[Jonathan50]

35. I tend to agree with the OP.

It makes me just a tad suspicious that it is a _Baptist_ church renting the property.

Perhaps it is because I live in the South and Southern Baptists are very prevalent around here and also very prejudiced against those who do not share their particular faith. There are many Southern Baptists who think that Catholicism is "of the Devil", never mind what they think of Pagans, Buddhists or (gasp) atheists.

Like the OP, I also tend to think that a "non traditional" church would not have an equal chance at renting the property. I've been around small town politics enough to know just how crooked they can be, and school boards are among the worst.

To me, renting out the school building on the weekend to raise money is rather like putting cola machines in the lunchroom for the same reason, a sad comment on the state of our educational system and the priorities of the American people.

I don't really have an objection to renting out school buildings over the weekend _in principle_, I just doubt that it is done in a completely fair manner in practice.

[geek_sabre]

36. Ridiculous

When a "non-trad" religious group is denied, then you have a right to be outraged. But there is no point in assuming that the school would respond to them in a certain way, based on absolutely nothing.

Perhaps you, the OP, and some other like-minded individuals can pool your resources and pay the school to keep the place empty on sundays instead?

[Jonathan50]

41. First, I'm not "outraged"

You are reading more into my post than I put there.

Second, I'm basing my *opinion* on my experience with small town government and school boards in particular.

I have no way of knowing the facts of this particular case, and by the same token, neither do you. All any of us are expressing here are *opinions* and I am just as entitled to mine as you are to your's.

Seldom are such things done in an overt manner, almost always there is an effort to conceal the true reasons for such a decision as to disallow a non traditional church use of the school facilities.

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

37. As a staunch supporter of separation of church & state I see no problem

The whole building doesn't become a Baptist church, does it?

I've known schools that rented art rooms to ceramic hobbyists, theatres to acting groups and gyms for all kinds of events, like a rummage and bake sale held by an interfaith group. It never impacted the nature of the schools themselves.

If you think the school is showing religious favoritism, or misusing your taxes and other funds they receive, why not address your questions to the school board?

[ContraBass Black]

38. "Would they rent to other faiths?"

Ask them.

[Jonathan50]

42. And of course, they would tell the truth..

It would appear that you don't have all that much experience with school boards.

I know two of my county school board members and I wouldn't trust either one as far as I could see them.

It's really funny how people distrust politicians in general but trust certain politicians in particular.

Look at Dennis Kucinich, Mike Gravel and Ron Paul, all of them tell the truth as they see it and not a one has a prayer of being nominated, let alone elected.

[etherealtruth]

39. ...and... ?

[dsc]

44. The district where I live does this

apparently all they have to do is have one person on the staff of the building they seek to rent, so someone can let them in etc. I honestly don't see a problem with this provided it is fairly done and costs are covered.

[dsc]

46. mine claims that all that is needed is one employee who is in the church in question

We have actually looked into this due to considering starting a new church. We aren't Buddist but we would be an open and affirming church which would be a radical departure for our town.