What the fire story reveals

[nadinbrzezinski]

No, not that some regions of the country are backwards... whatever.

No what it reveals is a deep chasm, in values and what is acceptable in different regions of the country.

It also proves once again the Grand Canyon between rural and urban.

It also has revealed that we have different ways of thinking, with VERY DIFFERENT values inside, ostensibly, one nation.

And no, I cannot comprehend how a fire crew could sit idly,. but for some of you it makes perfect sense.

Now let's clarify, this is not the south, even if it geographically happened in the south... it is just an alien and foreign way of thinking to me. Just like I am sure, my way of thinking is alien and foreign to some of you.

Yes, there are parallels to other periods of US History, and we are staring at the face of something that ain't gonna be nice...

But that is what ultimately it has revealed... that deep, grand canyon sized chasm.

[doc03]

1. I live in a rural area and when we have a fire it's common

practice for the neighboring departments to come to a fire if they are not busy themselves. There is no way a fire department in these parts would sit and watch a house burn down, people would want to lynch them. Maybe this is old fashioned but I figure a fireman, EMT or a Doctor has an obligation to help first and worry about money second. I don't know maybe that's how southern people think I certainly don't understand it. Our fire department gets money from a tax levy, they also raise money renting their hall, selling flowers for Easter and other fund raisers. Sometimes they will go door to door for donations if they need new equipment but if you don't give they wouldn't dream of watching someones house burn down it's just unthinkable.

[TwilightGardener]

2. I've lived in small towns, this is also how it's been done--with volunteer departments

responding to fires from neighboring towns when they were able.

[Hannah Bell]

62. the majority of firefighters in this story are volunteers. only 20% are paid.

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. It is NOT the south

but it is a way of thinking. Why I said this was physically localed in the south... but it is NOT limited to the South. Hell, I got a State Senator who'd love nothing less than a zero taxes for the state... no I am not shitting you.

But it is alien and VERY DIFFERENT values than the ones I hold.

[tavalon]

9. I like your old fashioned values

I've lived rural and I've lived urban and I don't see why this is okay anywhere or anytime. To make it personal, as a healthcare provider, I would never stand by and watch a disaster happen if I could do something to help.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

3. "Am I my brother's keeper?" Even if he can't/won't cough up $75?

I don't much about this story, but I can't help wondering if the FD would have stood by if it was a $1,000,000 house.

I agree with your post but would add that the "chasm" also exists because of the value we put on property/money over lives or even human decency.

[Desertrose]

4. I think your last sentence nailed it.

"I agree with your post but would add that the "chasm" also exists because of the value we put on property/money over lives or even human decency."

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. Well this also goes back to the

borderer cultuare, my clan and only my clan, of the home country. Read into Enclosure Acts... it might explain WHY they feel that way... even if it is alien to me.

[Fumesucker]

5. The "chasm" is between those who wish to have government provided services..

And do not mind paying reasonable taxes for those services..

Like the residents of South Fulton Kentucky.

The other side is those who refuse to pay even after the fact for services that have already been provided and that have saved their asses.

Like the residents of Obion county Tennessee.

ETA: Unless you live in an area politically dominated by wingnuts you really don't grok in fullness how they will suck any source of services dry and then laugh and call that source names if it goes broke in the process because they refuse to pay.

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. A chasm and I don't pretend to understand that foreign country

but it has revealed it.

And no nation can survive when these values, 180 from each other, live side by side. That is the fucking point.

[tavalon]

10. So this is just an obvious look into a house divided

The Civil War never did really end, did it?

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. Nope and some of these values

go back to the Scott Borderers of the 1500's and earlier, The War of the Roses didn't end either...

[hedgehog]

11. Thinking about this, I can give another view of the chasm.

One group thinks, "It'll never happen to me, why should I care?" and the other group understands, "It could happen to me."

[Amonester]

12. Don't forget the third (larger) group.

The "It could happen to my irresponsible neighbor." group.

[hedgehog]

13. True. I often say that any group of people includes a number of

absolute jerks. It's just that generally the media only condemns poor jerks. White collar crime is ignored, but there is always room on the front page to talk about the woman on welfare who got an extra $350 because she didn't report that part time job she had.

[Amonester]

16. By mentionning that larger group, I wanted to make sure

the group I consider myself, and 99.9% percent of everyone I know, to belong to, where "compassion" is just a natural trait, wasn't excluded.

[hayu_lol]

15. In this particular case, the person who started the fire...

had a fire at his own place about 3 years prior. He also neglected to subscribe the yearly fee. He also did not pay at the time, or later, for services rendered.

[Amonester]

18. He's a nitwit.

And so are all those who consider that FD acted correctly: they didn't.

[tavalon]

37. Yes, exactly

It's not a case of one is right and the other wrong. This is wrong on all levels.

[LiberalAndProud]

20. Right? They laugh at us! That isn't hyperbole. That is truth.

So, if they want to get hit by a 2x4, who am I to stand in their way?

[LiberalAndProud]

14. I had been thinking about the different mindsets too.

I wonder if those of us who believe the fire department acted reasonably are surrounded by Republicans with a libertarian bent. I am. I read that Obion County has been authorized to establish a county fire department in 1987, and I immediately understood the frustration that the mayor and towns people have been laboring under for the last 13 years. Nothing has been done to resolve the problem and nothing will be done until the cost for inaction is exorbitant. People in urban centers can continue to pay and pay and pay and wrestle with budget shortfalls every year. The "keep my own money" crowd will have no remorse. In fact, they believe they're getting one over on us.

I deal with people of the "no government is good government" and "don't tax me" mentality all the time. In the end, they get the government they deserve. That's harsh, but it's true. Unfortunately for me, I get that government too.

[derby378]

17. I've visited ghost towns that still maintained fire departments

No stores, no schools, no courthouses, a skeleton population of 15 at most - but they still managed to pool together enough funds to maintain a volunteer fire department.

[SargeUNN]

19. what it also reveals is

how we have lowered our standards for greed and profit. We now feel cruel and unusual punishment is ok and thereby we dishonor our constitution, our principles and our values. I am highly concerned that we can't see what a disgraceful and hideous road we are putting ourselves on and I am grateful that I only have so much longer because this is not the country I can be proud of. I don't even know if Americans are respectable people anymore if this is where we are today.

[Rex]

21. What it tells is a truth about America - it is easier to let a fire burn down

a house than take the time to save it. IF money is involved.

[superduperfarleft]

22. I think it reveals how wonderful the "Hide Thread" button is.

[seabeyond]

23. fire is in back yard. animals in house. house not on fire. owner could get animals out of house

before it went up

tell me WHY those animals died.

[hedgehog]

24. Thinking about it, I'm wondering if the mindset that refuses

to pay for community fire protection is also responsible for giving us Senators Alexander and Corker!

(No offense to Du'ers from Tennessee. I know it's not your fault!)

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. And Miller

and Angle...

you got it.

[struggle4progress]

25. Standard operating procedure for Republicans, nadin: don't offer vital services then point fingers

when vital services are unavailable

Almost nobody in Obion county has fire service. That's the choice of the overwhelming majority of the Republican county commission. Voters could force the county commission in a different direction -- but haven't

According to press reports, this is not the first problem fire on the Cranick's property. South Fulton has contacted the Cranicks repeatedly to encourage them to opt into fire service. The Cranicks have elected otherwise. Having had previous fire problems, and having refused to participate in the city-FD-based program, the Cranicks nevertheless continued to engage in uncontrolled trash-burning on their property, with predictable result

I'm generally sympathetic to idiots, being too often to one myself. But the fingerpointing is tiresome. Nothing prevents Obion county from taxing its residents to provide uniform city fire service to county residents or to set up its own fire department. Failing that, nothing prevents county residents from establishing volunteer fire department service for county residents. Whining "I deserve city fire service even though I don't live in the city and won't join the fire program" is just bullshit -- and the Cranicks's point of view is illustrated completely by Tim Cranick's assault on the city fire chief

[ieoeja]

26. I grew up on a farm, and the nearest fire department (volunteer) intracounty refused to service us.

Two other fire departments (volunteer) outside the county did. One of them was actually closer than the department in the same county. But that one went bust while I was still a kid. The other was equal distant to the one in our county. So it didn't matter to us one way or the other.

That said, I am pretty sure that had the other department announced that they would no longer be doing this, my dad would have happily paid additional property tax to support them. As it was, he supported them voluntarily (it seemed like he had a list of folks across half the state to whom he gave periodic supplies of venison or beef).


Actually, most times it was Civil Defense and just plain ol' neighbors that handled any fires. But those two volunteer fire departments did come across the county line occassionally.


Having grown up on a farm and spent most of my adult life in Chicago, I know the gulf whereof you speak. But it does not apply to this situation. Some voluntarily serviced us anyway. But the nearest and largest city (pop. 2500) in the county, did not. They didn't even give us a buy-in option. We happened to live half way to one county line (and the farm straddled another). So we were just fine. But it did happen on occasion that homes on the outskirts of that city caught fire, and the fire department could not respond. So help had to come from 18 miles away. And when city officials, like cops, did occasionally venture across that line ... boy, did the town folk scream about their tax money being wasted!

And in this fire story case, you have the same situation. Except that there was no fire department nearby willing to help like we had. So, if your post is trying to imply that city folk don't understand that rural folk find this disgusting ... well, it was rural folk who decided not to help! Chicago fire departments have helped out with suburban fires on many occasions. And few Chicagoans ever raise a stink about that.

[nadinbrzezinski]

86. It is not just urban vs rural, even if at times this is "obvious"

it is two world views... the geography can be my next door neighbor.

[stranger81]

27. Another thing I've learned from this dustup: a lot of us are assholes.

Pure, unashamed, irredeemable assholes. And they call themselves Democrats.

:puke:

[eyepaddle]

28. Yeah, I took 6 or 7 months off of DU, and have only recently cme back

There are a gigantic number of complete assholes posting on this topic.

And they know who they are.

[SargeUNN]

30. I am not far behind and maybe Skinner and Mods should take note

that next funding raising might be tough since so many are getting to feel that DU is not a place to have reasonable and sensible discussion without getting subjected to remarks from those who we prefer not to be associated with. DU really needs to evaluate what it trying to do and decide what the limits are and what is over the line. I am so close to at least taking time off because I don't want this cancer I am seeing take over this board.

[hfojvt]

33. I don't know who they are

Are they the ones who can understand why the fire department did what it did, or are they the ones personally attacking that first group?

[stranger81]

46. If you don't know who they are, you might be one of them. [n/t]

[TonyMontana]

29. That chasm you speak of is called morality

The people who think this guy "had it coming" because he didn't pay a fee are small minded and selfish. They care only about themselves and have no regard for other human beings in times of need, except of course, when their time of need comes. Then they become massive hypocrites.

It is simply reprehensible that they let this house burn down. I don't care if the man never paid taxes in his life, I don't care if he stubbornly refused to pay the fee, I don't care if he started the fire himself, I don't care if the man is the biggest asshole on the planet. You don't sit by and watch a house burn down when you have the ability to stop it, for any reason.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

31. I don't want to live in that world --

where a fire crew could sit there and let a house and animals burn, regardless of the circumstances. :( Sorry, I don't like that place at all. I don't think there should be a place for that in our country.

[stuntcat]

72. +1

you said it

[lumberjack_jeff]

32. Moral hazard

We're too dismissive of the concept. The homeowner who refused to participate in the fire service after the previous fire knew exactly what it was doing. "No mandates for me, by golly!"

The Ayn Randian bullshit idea that everyone can stand on their own two feet independent of their neighbors is exactly that. However, once a community decides to live that dumbass ideal, it is counterproductive for the conscientious few to invisibly carry the burdens that the ignorant majority decline.

I think it takes events like this for people to get it.

Yeah, public safety shouldn't be an option. But if you're going to go down that path, your safety shouldn't become someone else's sole obligation.

[JVS]

42. Exactly. It saddens me to see here that so many DUers want those of us who advocate better...

policy to quietly sit around and eat the shit sandwiches that get made when we have to pull the chestnuts out of the fire for these assholes.

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. I guess I should have let that two year old

die in that fire.

They did not pay taxes nor have a title to the land they were on.

Yep, we should not have risked life and limb to rescue her.

And sadly that is what it will take for people to get it.

And no, I do not need a sarcasm tag on this.

Different values...

[lumberjack_jeff]

54. Yes. The two year old is exactly like this homeowner. n/t

[dionysus]

77. uh, they would have done something if lives were in danger. fail.

[nadinbrzezinski]

88. Given they did not follow the creed

I don't count them on it

They don't want to do this, I get it, cancel the mutual aid agreement and STAY inside city limits.

[blindpig]

34. No such thing

From time immemorial rural folks have had to band together to get anything done, harvesting, barn-raisings for example. People have to look out for each other, this thing ain't no rural thing.

What this situation illustrates is creeping libertarianism, ruling class dogma gussied up with cross and flag. It is to be seen in the drive toward privatization pushed by both parties.

Ya know, I've spent the first 28 years of my life in a big city and the subsequent 28 years in a small city/rural setting, there are differences, but you ain't hitting on them.

One thing that doesn't seem to change is the arrogance of city slickers, took me a while to figure that out but I'm a better person for it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. Actually there is this difference

it is a critical difference and a simple one.

And it is not city slickers who are uptight. It is also the rural people.

[tnlefty]

35. I've read through this thread and perhaps there are side

topics that need to be considered. FYI, I live in a community that was mostly rural, surrounded by farms until investors bought the farms either from aging farmers or their heirs. One section very close to me was turned into a golf course with McMansions and then it was extended across the street to make an even bigger connected golf course and gated McMansions.

People in this part of my county and the surrounding....Bradley, Meigs, Polk have seen their jobs disappear. My spouse works for the local electrical cooperative around here that stretches up to the KY line. We never discuss names, but the numbers of people who are on the cut-out lists (gonna pull the meter for non-payment) has increased drastically during the past 5 yrs. The food banks are stressed, and people who had jobs for years now have no jobs. They try to make ends meet by picking up work where the can, but are increasingly stressed and my spouse has told me many stories about 'grown man who has always worked sat across from my desk crying and quietly asking for help'.

People who are struggling also see shit like this:

People who are paid very well at TVA cut corners and the end result in a nasty coal ash spill. No one at TVA is held responsible, nor is that entity paying for it's massive fuck up, we rate payers have the pleasure of doing that.

While so many are struggling and staving off foreclosure or have been foreclosed on already, they see the assholes who caused the meltdown in the first place being bailed out and rewarded with bonuses. And locally it was revealed that the county mayor, Claude Ramsey (R-shithead) spent $89K on office furniture. That money could have done something to move along the project for the homeless, but to middle-classers and those really struggling this is outrageous.

The sweetheart deals extended to VW to locate a plant in this county were outrageous: just one part, they won't pay property taxes on property that taxpayers funded the development of for 30 years. If you're struggling trying to keep a business open here, have laid workers off, an out of work person trying to save to pay your property taxes, this shit pisses people off to no end. Oh, and that was a bi-partisan effort. :puke:

It's my understanding that the TBI has been downtown (Chattanooga) in the offices of building inspectors and then going after builders...again people knew/know they're being screwed. I've had many people in Bradley Co. tell me that the permitting, inspection system there is corrupt as hell, so hopefully the TBI will spend a couple of days there.

Point being, people are struggling, can't always pay what they need to and don't ask for help until they absolutely have to, play the odds, but people from both sides of the spectrum (I don't mean people who are active in a political party) feel they try to do the correct thing, and are still getting screwed.

And yeah, while I didn't ask for help there was a time in my life when we paid our fire subscription fee in installments.

Are there assholes who just try to get out of paying for anything? Yeah. We have a stupid school board member who has advocated for parents not to pay school fees, etc. (Rhonda Thurman) but she doesn't really want the schools adequately funded. Parents who can afford to pay them usually do and do more, but there are families who pay them in installments or can't pay them at all, and it's not because they agree with Thurman, they just can't pay the fees.

Hope this is somewhat clear. It's more complex than the guy is a teabagger, and my volunteer fire dept. could've probably used the $89K that the county mayor spent on fucking office furniture.

There are many more struggling disillusioned people who fee or know that they're being screwed.

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. Absolutely it is more complex

but at the most basic of levels (and this is NOT limited to the SOUTH, let me repeat this)... it is also a chasm between two sets of values that are 180 of each other.

You could see it PARTIALLY in a party and how a party things, but it goes to this... two very different sets of values.

[tnlefty]

47. Okay, if you say so...

I'm willing to bet these types of more complex scenarios, and no, it's not always a 'set of values' or a party, when people feel screwed over by elected officials from both parties, but continue down this idea path that it's a great divide, when it truly is more complex, but he bottom line is truly people who try, but are feeling totally screwed over.

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. Read Atlas Shrugged

pay attention to John Galt. Them are the values you are seeing.

[tnlefty]

53. Did years ago, and no it's really not...

but keep thinking that way...which part of feeling screwed over by both parties do you fail to understand?

Hints: union folks who used to always vote for democrats, don't so much anymore...NAFTA, trade agreements that decimated textile mills in the south, the furniture industry in NC, and on and on...

IT jobs in OH and elsewhere, radiology outsourced, a lot of this put on steroids under Dimson**, but locally people feel the disconnect between what they struggle to do and what elected officials get away with.

[nadinbrzezinski]

56. You actually belief that a LOCAL fire department

has to do with NAFTA?

WHO KNEW?

[tnlefty]

60. NO, but it does have a lot to do with people losing their jobs

and not having money, but I suspect you didn't FULLY read any of my other responses. WHO KNEW? Oh, and most of these folks don't have much of an income anymore, but if you'd bother to read my responses, that would've been OBVIOUS.

Oh, and it is BELIEVE, not BELIEF, but have your fun. It's late here and I must be off to bed.

[nadinbrzezinski]

70. So you have no problem with pay for fee services

And if you really want to do an archeology of knowledge, look farther back, like five centuries back to the home country.

[smokey nj]

78. tnlefty didn't say that at all.

If you'd come down off your high horse and actually read her posts, you'd realize that she's merely providing first-hand insight about what people are coping with in her neck of the woods. The T-N in tnlefty stands for Tennessee.

[nadinbrzezinski]

79. I did read the posts

and the end logic is... a la carte security services.

But that is ok. Not just me saying it.

Here, where we are heading, or perhaps should...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9267852&mesg_id=9267852

[smokey nj]

82. Then try reading for comprehension because that's not what she said.

[nadinbrzezinski]

83. Okie dockie

[tnlefty]

95. Actually, no, it's not...

but this is what we're left with, and if you think that you can convince anyone to pay more in taxes for services then I shall state again:

People pay their taxes, people struggle to pay their taxes and the 'sweeteners' offered to VW to locate in my county piss people off from the rational folks of both sides of the political spectrum....in addition to a lot of other crap, millions were taken from my county school district, even though part of my county taxes go to pay for schools in poorer counties. I don't mind that so much except the wealthy in those counties should pay more than they do.

$60 million was pulled from the college/university system to pay for VW, and yes, the tuition for my oldest (in his 3rd year at MTSU) went up this year. NONE of this was revealed to taxpayers, even though many requests were made for over a year
, until after it was a done deal. I suppose that was the best way to avoid torches and pitchforks.

Developers are going under because they built houses (not emaculate, nor huge), but they were planning for $17 -$19/hr wages being paid and then 2 yrs. later it was revealed that the starting wage would be $14.50/hr.

No, my logic isn't a la crate services, but what people will endure. And what happened in one county in TN, carried through by a bunch of assholes, doesn't reflect most of the people in this state, who will help people that they don't get along with in an emergency. I hope what the assholes did, in one county in TN, haunts them for the rest of their lives.

[mmonk]

39. The lack of human empathy bothers me.

It's not what I associate with a decent society.

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. Me too

[TheKentuckian]

45. I don't know about rural and urban or whatever but there is plenty of the Libertarian douchebaggery

in the formula.

This attitude is in direct opposition to about everything I believe in and the heartlessness is mindblowing.

Shit like this makes me want to run for the hills screaming the west has failed. Very scary sentiment that is increasingly pervasive.

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. I get it

and why I went out of my way to point out that while this happened geographically in the South, it is NOT limited to the South.

:hi:

I get the same reaction.

As I pointed in another thread, this taken to the end conclusion, the city should cancel it's mutual aid and let them sink or swim. If there is a MAJOR fire approaching their jurisdictional line, man up and be ready to FIGHT it on your side of the line.

Of course this is absurd, but that is the logical end of that thinking.

[Little Star]

50. [phone] That is the point that seems to keep being missed.

[nadinbrzezinski]

51. And trust me as a former rescue worker

it gives me chills to even suggest it.

It did horrify a few folks though. And that is good.

[Canuckistanian]

52. It's a chasm, all right

Between humanity and INhumanity.

[riderinthestorm]

55. I completely disagree this is "rural" vs. "urban" thinking

We're a country that has historically had a deep respect and concern for rural affairs. From the Rural Electrification projects to farm subsidies (spare me the lecture on how THAT program has become distorted but you understand the basic premise I hope).

I've lived in both urban, suburban and rural communities and I don't see any Grand Canyon like divide over values that are specific to each community - what I do see is a disturbing new parsiminiousness (is that a word? heh) in our attitudes manifested in every community about our fellow human being/communal society. This is manifesting itself in our debates over universal health care, "bailing" out the banksters vs "main st", creating a WPA type work program, extending benefits to the 99ers etc.

Even amongst DUers there have always been that percentage who have been "burn baby burn!" cuz somebody didn't save up enough to forestall a medical bankruptcy, or because their unemployment bennies ran out before they found a job. I don't see this as a rural/urban divide at all. It's just a fact of life in 2010 regardless of community.

[nadinbrzezinski]

57. IT IS a divide nonetheless

showing values that are 180 from each other.

No country can survive in a situation like that.

[riderinthestorm]

58. That's fine, I agree with this post, but your OP is too simplistic, that was my only point.

"Rural vs urban values" isn't realistic imho. It's much deeper, complex and universal to be simplified to two "opposing" communities - black/white.

[nadinbrzezinski]

59. Actually I think we are seeing a chasm

not unlike that of oh late 1859...

No it wasn't that simple back then either...

[LiberalAndProud]

94. Could a legal separation be negotiated?

I think we could set up reasonable visitation rights for the teabagge(R)s. Maybe an acre-for-acre land swap. It could be an amicable thing. It would be an interesting (if horrific) case study in Libertarianism to let tham have a government of their own.

But rain falls on both the righteous and the sinner. (I think that's in the Bible somewhere.)

[sweetapogee]

61. my 2 cents on the matter

I work for a manufacturing company but in my off time I play the part of a volunteer firefighter/EMT. I don't do this to have people praise me for my efforts, I simply love to be a firefighter. However, I should mention that this endevor takes up between 15 to 25 hours per week of my time and we do get emergency calls at the time when normal people are in bed or eating supper. Yesterday for example, I used up one of my vacation days to teach fire safety in the local elementary school (it's fire prevention week) and tonight I have a CPR refresher course after work. Thursday night is our fire company open house and Saturday we are doing a demostration at a local harley davidson dealership. Sometimes this calling is simply a pain in the ass.

I really don't consider this a Democratic vs. Republican issue at all. In my semi-rural NE Pennsylvania township, way north of the mason dixon line, my volunteer fire co was NOT established by ANY government entity or political party, rather in 1969 a lay group of concerned citizens decided that the township should establish it's own fire company instead of relying on the nearest town (also volunteer) because the response times were too long and the work load too great. 40 years later we still are NOT a government department, the township supervisors cannot dictate to us how we operate, the tax payers DO NOT own the equipment, buildings or our 20 acres of property. The Fire Company gets all but about 15% of our operating capital from donations and fundraisers.

It is true that we respond to fires in other fire districts via. "mutual aid" AGREEMENTS. Key word AGREEMENT. If we are asked to respond to a fire district that we don't have an agreement with, we are then considered in firespeak to be "free-lancing". This is dangerous and possibly illegal. We don't do it ever. There are so many things that can go wrong responding to fires that folks outside of the fire service cannot even imagine.

At the end of the day, every individual is responsible for their own fire protection. This is an individuals responsibility to themselves. Smokey the Bear says it best, "only YOU can prevent forest fires". The people in the fire district where this house burned are responsible for their fire services, not the city nearby. They (the citizens, not the politicians) are going to have to put down the remote control and put together a plan to offer themselves fire protection and then find some way to fund their fire protection. This is going to require a real sacrifice in time and dollars, I know, being a volunteer fire fighter is a hell of a lot of work.

When I took my oath to be a fire fighter, my oath was to protect lives and property and visitors in MY FIRE DISTRICT. Just doing that task is almost a full time job that doesn't put any food on my table. I will help the fire district next to ours when they need help because they will do the same for me when I need it. I love to fight fires but it cost time and money and we cannot, we cannot, we cannot protect areas outside of our district without a MUTUAL AID AGREEMENT period. You may not understand it, it may make you mad, you may hate me for saying it, but this is the facts of life.

I'm under NO obligation to render assistence to anyone just because they have a need. It is true that I carry basic life support equipment (first aid supplies) in my personal vehicle. A few months ago I performed CPR and deployed my AED for a patient in full cardiac arresst before ALS arrived. I'm pleased to have been in a position to do this for the man but I did it because I had the time to do it, I was under NO OBLIGATION and I had to perform the duities within my scope of practice and according to state protocols. And the only reason I can carry my BLS gear is because I'm a firefighter and certified QRS squad member, otherwise I have NO BUSINESS carrying this kind of medical equipment in my car. Simply being an EMT or having first aid training is not a valid reason to posess O2, AEDs, suction devices or other meds in ones car or use them just because there is a need.

Again, when the people who live in that Tenn. fire district finally realize that their fire protection is their responsibility not someone elses and finally decide that maybe they should turn off the TV once in a while and organize their own fire company and figure out just how much sacrifice this endevor requires, they will, when all is accomplished be thankful that the mean old city put their foot down. And in time the two fire districts will begin to understand what a MUTUAL AID Agreement really is and my prediction is that the (hopefully newly established) county fire service and city fire service will work together to protect the common good. It takes at least TWO to work TOgether.

End of sermon.

[nadinbrzezinski]

74. As a former EMT-P south of the border

yes I get it, I edited a thesis between emergency runs.

Oh and WE COULD NOT get tax support even if they offered it... that pesky thing called International Law and AGREEMENTS between an NGO and the Federal Government... so I raise you on complexity legally speaking.

And yes fire safety is my responsibility TO A POINT. I guess I should go shopping for a CHEAP American LaFrance Pumper and get the neighbors to pitch in. This is WHERE that attitude is leading to.

But thanks for actually illustrating some of the divide, and yes thank you for your service. 20 hours... try being an instructor too... sleep was a rare thing.

(OF note there are a few of us who are former emergency workers too, or active... but thanks for the sermon)

PS even though your local municipality has no say (so you think) on how your fire service works... there are a slew of certs you have to meet... both state and federal, and you know that.

So no, you are not alone.

[LWolf]

63. While there is a big divide between rural and urban,

I don't see that in play here. I live in a rural area, and I think everyone has a right to fire protection. I fully support public services, and fully oppose any kind of privatization of those services.

The only local firefighter I know is a republican. There is no way in hell he would sit back and watch someone's house burn. When he's not at work, he's volunteering in his community: food and clothing drives, teaching CPR classes for no pay at the local school, getting a permit and cutting beetle-killed trees in the local forests, splitting them, and providing locals who are struggling financially with firewood for the winter (for many of us, our wood stoves are our only heat source.)

There is a local ballot measure in November asking us to merge the town fire dept. with the regional rural fire dept., making them one entity serving all, instead of separate cooperating departments.

[mwb970]

64. It's getting harder and harder to see The Others as even being Americans.

Americans? Today's soulless, mean-spirited conservatives appear to be totally lacking in empathy for others, a hallmark of humanity. In addition, they absolutely refuse to use logic and reason, also a distinguishing characteristic of humans. It's as if they are of some other species!

And, these "American" "people" claim to be "Christians", even as they speak and behave in appalling ways that completely defy and defile the words and deeds of their alleged Holy Savior.

What is wrong with our nation that we have brought forth from the depths of Hell such a cadre of inhuman, un-Christian, un-American a-holes to bedevil us? When O when will they finally, finally be gone?

[sweetapogee]

65. not sure but...

I'm not sure but I think the actual firefighters in the city that didn't respond to the country house fire were volunteer labor. Many people in big cities are surprised to know that the vast majority of firefighters in the US are volunteers and even cities like nearby Bethlehem PA have some paid fire and some volunteers.

I also know that based on my involvement in the volunteer end of it that many of the firefighters are of the religious faith you think is responsible for this tragedy. I know based on my being in the service and an officer in my county fireman's association (we are 100% volunteer in my county) that there are less than 1% of the guys that I would consider a-holes as you call them, not to say that I would like to be best friends with each and every one but they are all a special breed in my opinion.

[mwb970]

66. It's the mindset that is the problem, not the firemen.

Many, even most, of the people who hold the right-wing attitudes I find so odious, un-American, etc. (see previous post) are, in every other respect, fine people. The very same folks who e-mail each other so hysterically about the Communist Nazi Kenyan socialist terrorist Hussein Obama who is destroying the America he hates so much will invite a stranded stranger into their home for dinner and help pull his car out of a ditch! (This happened to me.) Everyone knows how nice and friendly small-town folks are, until the talk turns to politics.

The problem is that these same generous, sweet people seem highly susceptible to a political mindset, pushed on them by Glenn Beck and his ilk, that is oriented around fear and hate for.....well, apparently, for gays, blacks, Muslims, Latinos, Jews, immigrants, liberals, atheists - the list goes on and on. They are also taught to obediently fight for the right of corporations and the super-rich to rape the public at will. I guess we must forgive them, for they know not what they do.

The fact is, the "a-holes" are the liars and demagogues on right-wing radio and Fox "News", not their trusting fireman victims.

The disconnect between the genuinely decent nature of rural conservatives and their horrific Beck-based right-wing attitudes and crippling fear of non-existent threats (FEMA concentration camps, anyone? Has Obama taken your guns away yet?) is what bothers me the most. Their mindset has driven them to behave in ways that do not reflect well on them: specifically, the seeming lack of empathy and distrust of reason I mentioned before.

[sweetapogee]

67. ok....

...but I'm struggling to take what you are saying and applying it to all that I know about firefighters in general and volunteer firefighters in particular.

You know, I read in an article, I think it was in the AP that the homeowner didn't have insurance coverage. True or not I don't know but again using my personal knowledge as a guide it would make sense that a person who wouldn't pay $75.00 per year to have a fire truck come when needed wouldn't also have a homeowners policy.

If it's accurate that the homeowner was uninsured, then even if the firefighters did put out the fire, the end result would still be the same. The homeowner would still have to pay out of pocket to either repair the badly damaged home or tear it down and rebuild. It sounds to me like the home was a total loss anyway because the house was fully involved when the 911 call was made. This type of fire is fought defensively, in other words, no one would go into the home to attack the fire, instead you do a "surround and drown" which in a rural area with no hydrants is a code word for "total loss".

I know of many cases in my county where this has happened, that is an uninsured homeowner has a fire and can't rebuild. It (the ruins) ends up being sold years later at county sale for back taxes. I know of an un-insured double home where a fire gutted one side and forced the other side owner out although if the fire side had insurance the whole place would have been fixed. I know of a place where an un-insured single burnt and started leaning onto the neighbors home (they were only inches apart) and this forced the other home to be condemned. If the fire home had been insured, the place would have been demolished and the neighbor would still have their home.

On edit: May I add one thought? In my years of fire service I can say this one thing with certainty. Among firemen, the most talked about subject is ....fighting fires, followed by doing rescues of all sorts then followed by fixing trucks, buying trucks, buying tools, running calls, EMS issues and so forth. The least talked about topics in my experience anyway is... politics, followed by religion. When the tones drop, there is only ONE topic of conversation. At least in my experience.

[mwb970]

68. You know, now that I've heard more about it....

....I'm thinking that the firemen are a-holes too! What kind of "fireman" STANDS THERE watching a house filled with precious memories and possessions burn down because the owner didn't pay $75? Good God! What a heartless, cruel act that was. I don't know anything about these guys or how great and generous they are in other settings, but what they did here is just plain despicable.

How can you defend "firemen" who behave this way? Once I heard the whole story, I was outraged. Why aren't you? Or are you?

[sweetapogee]

69. as ...

...as I mentioned before, the house was fully involved before the home owner called 911. At that point, there were no memories left to watch burn down. The fire trucks were at this point at best 10 or 15 minutes away. There was nothing to save, it would amount to pumping water simply for the joy of pumping water. So tell me what would be the point???

One of the hardest things to accept as firefighter is that homes do burn down, memories are lost. Dude, one time we were finishing up monday night drill when we got a call. We were still wearing our bunkers! Anyway, we were in the trucks and out the door before the dispatcher finished reading the dispatch. Even with that fast of a response, when we arrived on scene, the house was FULLY involved, fire in every room. Nothing to save, nothing. The fire went undetected too long, the owner waited too long to call! We tried, over a 5 hour period we pumped probably half a million gallons of water onto this house, all of it trucked in via tanker truck. Three hours later I reported to my real job to begin my regular work day. Thats the life of a VFF.

Another time I remember being on station when we received a call for a MVA rollover. Again, out the door in seconds and we worked like the devil to free this teenage girl from the wreckage, control bleeding, maintain a patient airway. She died anyway, it sucks but there are no guarantees in life.

If you consider us volunteer fire fighters a-holes then so be it. I'm sorry you feel that way but I can't do much I guess to change your mind. I personally love to put out fires, help people in need. I don't know if that fully answers your question, which I think is unfair for you to ask of me personally as i feel that I have nothing to prove to anyone with respect to my commitment to the fire service and EMS.

[mwb970]

75. Did you read this?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9265731

[sweetapogee]

92. i guess you...

..don't feel like answering my questions.

[nadinbrzezinski]

71. Two notes on this

I have read this exact same post on FR... replace conservative with Lib'rul.

By the way that is a symptom of the chasm.

Second point, the last time this country was this divided it was 1859 in the calendar.

[TriMera]

73. +1n/t

[dionysus]

76. nadin, do you realize that the "city" in question is 2500 ppl, while the county is 15k + and

wealthier?

this tiny "city" is carrying the burden for the whole county. thats not right.

[nadinbrzezinski]

81. That is why they should STOP responding

unless the country agrees to raise TAXES.

This is where we are going as a country by the way.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9267852&mesg_id=9267852

By the way there are LEGAL ways of recovering costs

[dionysus]

85. then maybe i misunderstood you.

[lost-in-nj]

80. never mind

lost

[nadinbrzezinski]

84. You want me to respond TWICE?

Or you missed it.

I agree with you that it should not be happening... but this http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9267852&mesg_id=9267852

is where we are heading and some folks have no issue with it.

For the record this is one of the weirdest posts EVER, and I have been on the net from oh the years of Usenet, and on DU from early on.

And it does take the cake.

[lost-in-nj]

87. no I don't want you to post twice, I posted this in the wrong thread

thats why I
deleted it....

sorry

didn't mean to upset you


lost

[depakid]

89. "... it is just an alien and foreign way of thinking to me."

Agreed.

[JI7]

90. It does reveal ignorance and backwardness and whatever of Libertarian type policies

[JI7]

91. "alien and foreign way" NO this is what Tea Baggers want our country to become

latest polls show that Sharon Angle is ahead of Reid in polls. What happened with this fire is what these people are advocating in every area in the country and around the world.

[nadinbrzezinski]

93. Here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9267852&mesg_id=9267852

That is their future.