For the mentally challenged: Fire departments are not insurance companies.

[backscatter712]

They're not in the business of charging premiums, evaluating risks with actuarial tables, or denying services in the same way Aetna and Anthem Blue Cross/Blue Shield denies service to cancer patients.

Fire departments are a government-provided service. If they're not funded through taxes, they should be. If they don't cover everyone in their jurisdiction, no questions asked, they should.

Their job is to fight fires and protect public safety, PERIOD.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

1. What if they are in the next state over?

Which state taxes should cover the service?

[backscatter712]

4. Do sane fire departments not assist each other when needed?

First, let's assume that the people in the next state over have their own fire departments because most of the time, it's true.

Second, fire departments do send trucks and firefighters across city limits, county lines, state lines, etc. all the time to assist each other with big fires that are more than one company can handle.

[WolverineDG]

9. when they have agreements, yes

and in this particular instance, the agreement was to provide fire services only to those who paid for it.

dg

[Hassin Bin Sober]

10. Yes. With big fires. Not as their de-facto on call department for every day service.

[Pithlet]

11. Dupe

[Pithlet]

12. When needed, they should. Absolutely.

Should they on a consistent regular basis even though that community repeatedly votes not to fund them, till the fire company goes bankrupt? Because that's the situation going on there right now. This is a city fire department. Not city/county. A referendum did come up to fund them and the county voted it down more than once. The city says they'll provide service, but only if the residents pay because they can't levy a tax on them themselves. The residents haven't been paying on a consistent basis. Why should the city comtinue to provide service regularly? This is the question I and some others have been posing. I don't feel they're morally or ethically obligated to do so at their peril. I think the county needs to get off their ass and help fund or start their own. Not bleed the city dry. If they keep showing up and fighting the county's fires, they'll go bankrupt, because they don't have enough funding to keep doing so.

[TheMadMonk]

28. More than that, if they provide the service when the levy has not been paid...

...eventually the providing city might just get jack of it, and withdraw the service entirely. Then everyone suffers for the greed of a few.

And it's not actually the greed of a few, it's a consistent majority who vote down providing the levy out of county funds/adding a levy to everyone's property taxes.

[JVS]

2. Fire departments are also not the mayors' offices, where policy makers do consider such things.

[backscatter712]

5. In this case, we have a mentally challenged mayor or city manager

who decided that his fire departments should act like Aetna and Blue Cross/Blue Shield, and the result is the brain damage we have today, with fire departments standing and watching while houses burn down.

Insurance is the wrong business model for firefighting. We've tried it before. In the 19th century, fire brigades were privatized, would sit and watch if you didn't pay an insanely inflated firefighting fee, and the result was a lot of houses and buildings burned down. The solution was eeeeeeeevil socialist government fire departments paid for by taxes that cover everyone. That eeeeeevil socialist model seemed to work just fine in the U.S. for many decades.

[JVS]

7. The mayor was protecting the interests of his community, as it is unfair to expect his...

town of 2500 to support fire services for the surrounding countryside without a mechanism to bring remuneration.

[rhett o rick]

13. Ah yes,rationalism is the key to happyness. I am guessing you are happy. nm

[JVS]

14. Is ignoring the facts going to fund that department?

Is cost benefit analysis the stem cell research or theory of evolution that is just not acceptable to some DUers?

[seabeyond]

16. reality is not rationalizing. ignoring reality keeps you in happyland.

but it causes the people dealing with this issue a huge pain in the ass.

[rhett o rick]

21. So you are the one that knows what reality is? Please let the rest of us know. nm

[DJ13]

3. But....

Personal Responsibility!

Bootstraps!

Supplyside!

(I agree with you, K&R!)

[WolverineDG]

6. They're not required to cover areas outside their jurisdictions either

for the obviously more mentally challenged.

dg

[SharonAnn]

26. Exactly! Fire Depts are funded by taxes or subscriptions or donations

In our county, people don't want to pay taxes. So, they don't get the services that taxes would provide. We must have a Sheriff's Dept., jail, and schools. Those are required according to state law. Everything else is optional. So we have very few services and rely on a volunteer fire department.

But I wouldn't be surprised to hear somebody complain about inadequate fire fighting services.

They just don't get the connection between the cost of taxes and the value of services.

[Lars39]

8. Can't find the post, but a new poster suggested that

the fee actually helped pay for the volunteer firemen workman's comp. So...no fee, no insurance for the firemen. Reason #489 to have single payer.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. While he had a small point

lord knows I paid for life insurance too as a medic in Mexico... trust me, when going mutual aid in the US, that life insurance did not quite cover me. Something like it did not cross borders.

We still went when needed.

:-)

And yes, one of many, but with the current libertarian world view, don't expect it to happen.

We live in a country with two very different and opposing world views.

[Lars39]

22. I believe he meant *health* insurance.

Insurance from a firefighter's regular 8-5 job probably wouldn't cover any injuries from firefighting.

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. He meant both life and worker's comp

[seabeyond]

15. yes. so the county should tax and fund and allow firefighters to get back to their jobs.

oh, but the county does not want to tax its citizens.... or pay for fire service.

now what

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. I took it to the logical conclusion

This is a CITY FD, from a neighboring STATE. Since the COUNTY in question refuses to fund their own FD. They should cancel the MUTUAL AID agreement and stop responding. Let the county live with the consequences of this way of thinking, or raise the three bucks\month to FUND their own FD.

Apparently taking this to the logical libertarian conclusion was way too harsh. And yes I know people WILL die, which gives me no pleasure but those defending this... should realize this is the logical conclusion.

Of course the other is... have TAXES to fund COUNTY services in Obion County, and a Mutual Aid agreement for when their own FD is not enough. But that would be like SOCIALIST and shit.

[JVS]

20. Actually, I don't think it's too harsh, but it seems a step harsher than the coverage by fee system.

I'm ok with your plan causing more fires too though.

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. Nah, the county don't fund it

forget about ANY fire protection... that is the Galt fantasy. WHOOHOO!!!!

And let those who CAN AFFORD it to buy a fire truck or two, to protect ONLY their own property.

[petronius]

19. "Mentally challenged"? Why don't you just say "retard" - it's clearly what you mean

:shrug:

[Speck Tater]

25. People who vote against funding public services should get what they want: no public services.

It's called natural consequences. It's how people learn that it is important to act with the general welfare of the community in mind.

In other words, selfishness has consequences, and unless those consequences are allowed to unfold then there is no incentive for people to learn to grow beyond selfishness. To enable the selfish, or reward their selfishness merely perpetuates their selfishness by denying them the opportunity to learn and grow as people.

[frustrated_lefty]

34. +1000

[lapislzi]

36. Good luck with that.

It's the equivalent of trying to teach a pig to sing. Some people cannot, will not learn. Some people cannot draw a straight line from (in)action to consequence. It's a bizarre form of cognitive disconnect, but it exists, apparently in spades.

[struggle4progress]

27. Obion county's Republican commissioners have decided not to tax Obion county residents

to provide fire service. And public-spirited Obion county residents seem not to have set up a volunteer fire department. So the fire departments in Obion county are city fire departments that city residents support with their city taxes. And Obion county's Republican commissioners like the current deal, where county residents can opt into city fire protection by paying an annual fee plus a per-call charge. It's a sucky-stupid arrangement, and if the residents of Obion county are unhappy enough about it, they can lean on Obion county's Republican commissioners to change the arrangement or they can elect a new slate of county commissioners who will take a more enlightened view of the importance of fire protection

Meanwhile, lots of people in Obion county don't have fire protection. I suppose city residents in South Fulton could tax themselves enough to provide fire protection to everybody else in the county, but they're not obligated to do that, no matter how swell it be for them to be so generous. South Fulton's fire department used to put out fires for anybody, subscriber or not, and they used to send bills to the non-subscribers for service call -- and surprise! most of the cheapos who wouldn't pay the subscription fees would also refuse to pay the bills for actual fire-fighting service calls. South Fulton decided some time ago they couldn't afford to swallow the losses: I know it's fuckin hard to believe, but South Fulton has to pay for firetruck tires and gasoline and engine maintenance and hoses and garage facilities and a slew of other stuff to keep its fire department running, and the costs go up with the number of service calls, because pumps and hoses and tires wear out and firemen get hurt and such. If the South Fulton fire department shows up at a fire in the city, with a bunch of worn-out dysfunctional equipment because they've been off fighting fires for county free-loaders, heads will roll: the mayor knows it, the fire-chief knows it, and the firemen know it

Is it a sucky story? Damn straight, it's a sucky story! Should Obion county offer uniform fire protection? Damn straight, Obion county should offer uniform fire protection! Should we point fingers at the South Fulton fire department? Hell, no: we should point fingers at the jackasses in Obion county who object to a tiny property tax increase (of 13 milrays for every $100 of assessed property value) to provide fire protection for county residents

[jobycom]

29. Well, if you see any mentally challenged people here, be sure to call them out.

I'm sure the mods would like to know who you believe are mentally challenged.

[jobycom]

30. And when the government doesn't provide the service, as is the case here?

What then? Just some random other group of people should provide the service? How about you? Why don't you pay for Obion County's fire department. Write them a check so you can put out their fires the way you expect other people to put out their fires.

[dgibby]

31. Unrec for offensive title. n/t

[TexasObserver]

32. Fire departments are NOT insurance companies.

And those who argue they are similar don't appear to know much about fire departments or insurance companies.

[LWolf]

33. And health care should be, too. nt

[aikoaiko]

35. True -- and true of all analogies A is not B is required of any analogy by definition

But the ways that A and B are similar can still be meaningful.

[sweetapogee]

37. two issues

The OP is not quite right on two issues:

1. The OP said: "Fire departments are a government-provided service. If they're not funded through taxes, they should be. If they don't cover everyone in their jurisdiction, no questions asked, they should."

MY COMMENT::: This is true in most cities but not in many rural areas. My township government does not own our fire company, it is completly separate from the township and is not a government department. Residents are not granted free access to the fire hall and uninvited visitors could in theory be arrested for tresspassing. The township supervisors have next to no say in how we run the fire company. We are not funded through fire taxes although (for now) we do respond to every call in our fire district. What is being ignored by many is the now famous incident in Tenn is that the fire was not even in the cities fire district.

2. The OP said: "Their job is to fight fires and protect public safety, PERIOD."

MY COMMENT::: Scratch the last word "PERIOD." The number 1 responsibility of the firefighter on the firegrounds is to the firefighter. Our safety is #1, public safety #2 protecting property is #3. This is not an item that can or ever will be changed. Any attempt to change this will result in there being no firefighters country-wide. Also, I hope you understand that it is impossible for anyone to protect that which is already lost. Dead and injured firefighters are no help to the victims. Sometimes, despite all efforts, a house is lost, a motorist dies and a lost child is found too late.

Reality sucks sometimes but that is the way it is.

[Baalath]

38. Well stated!

:yourock: :grr: