I'm making enemies of my Democratic friends

[azureblue]

Many of them on facebook, but others in the real world. Why? Because of the way they respond to Repubs and teabaggers. Some have posted political things on FB, and the Repubs chime in with insults and LOLs and a lot of lies. When someone engages them, they simply refuse to talk about facts and fling more insults and derision. Attempts to reason with them fail, so they basically "win" the thread.

Until I came along. I respond with attacks and facts, calling out their tactics and lies. In fact (horrors) I actually call them liars when they lie. And when they bring up the "God said so" line of crap, I respond with, "but that is the opposite of what Jesus told you to do and you know it. You are a failure as a Christian." I do not respond to their attempts to dodge the facts and I hammer them with the GOP track record of failure, and always ask, "then why on earth should we vote for a Repub if their track record is one of lies and failure?"

I feel that this is the only way to shut these idiots up for good. Corner them, hammer them, call them liars and fools, call them anti Christian for not doing what Jesus told them to do, call them anti American for their willingness to destroy this country so they can be in power. It is a waste of time to try to reason with Goopers and baggers. It is not a waste of time to call them out and make them angry and rub their noses in their hypocrisy.

I have tried to conduct civil and reasoned discourses with Goopers and they firmly believe that civility, attempts at unity, and reason are signs of weakness. Now some of my friends don't like me and have told me to not respond to their political posts because I am too "insulting". Maybe I am. My friends think I should tone it down and take the "high road". I do not. Maybe I am wrong, but I am not going to sit back and let these loud, stupid people who call themselves baggers and Repubs, ruin this country. This is the time to say, "no more of your BS" and shut them down. Hard. Speak up, and loudly. Now.

[OregonBlue]

1. Wow!! I'm impressed and I'm proud of you for standing up. If we won't who will?

[azureblue]

2. Nobody will

especially if we think it is better to not make waves or upset people, and let somebody else speak up. No. We all have to and now. When I have spoken up, practically every time, somebody has chimed in with a "I am glad you said that, I wish I had." Now is the time to say it. Do not back down in the face of these bullies- push back and hard.

[Trajan]

3. I appreciate that ....

But I have taken another tack - I shut down the political BS on FB, in my circle at least ...

We enjoy speaking with our kids and friends there .... We share music and stories and family pictures and stuff like that: The LAST thing we want is a political meltdown that ruins the atmosphere for everyone ....

Politics is off limits on our FB pages, at least for now ....

[marlakay]

12. I am the same mostly no political talk

since its for family and friends and they are on both sides of the aisle. I did encourage my daughter who lives near DC to go to the rally for Jon & Stephen. And I friended Patty Murray & Michael Moore so its obvious to anyone that knows me how I feel.

Its not so much that I won't stand up to them as I have a few republican family members that I am trying to stay in touch with. I use to argue with them but my new approach is more lead by example instead of with words....

[Better Today]

4. I'd ask you to quit, too. Honestly,

Typing "but that is opposite of Jesus told you to do and you know it," is sufficient. Calling anyone a failure as a Christian or any other type of direct insults only makes the person you insulted dig in deeper to their offensive defense, hence ruining any possibility of actually getting through to them. As much as I dislike the neo-cons, and the teabaggers, I don't want to ostracize them from ever having that "aha" moment and joining our side. I'm a convert from back in 2000, so I know conversion is possible.

I agree with your friends. Grow a pair and fight with facts not emotional insults.

[azureblue]

7. no this is what you say

when they say things like "I hate fags and God says gays are an abomination." Or " those poor people are poor because they are lazy and don't want to work." or "if they don't have health insurance, then let them die." Or any time they use the Bible to justify their hate. Or anything from a long list of things that the winguts claim as moral values, but are in direct contradiction to Christ's teachings. and are thus, anti Christian by the very definition. You do know the difference, don't you?

[Better Today]

9. You make no sense. I said I agree with commenting, but you claim

in your OP that you also add personal insults which are completely unnecessary. I have no problem with you noting the problems with their christianity or their bigotry, but to then add the personal insult at the end is stupid if you are trying to make a difference. If you want those people to remain in their bubble and to remain your political and social enemies, then keep up the personal insults. It will reflect on you as being just as emotionally extreme and stupid as they are, but so be it.

[azureblue]

13. it's not a personal insult

and it is telling that you took it that way. It is a simple question to ask of someone who may or may not have taken the time to examine their religious beliefs, to separate church dogma from the teachings of Christ, and examine them to see if they are in agreement. Most Christians have not. "Do you know the difference?" is not an insult, unless someone is looking for an insult.

Now why is this, knowledge of the teachings of Jesus, so important and relevant to politics? Because the principles of the Democratic party are very similar to the things that Jesus taught, while, OTOH, the principles of the Republican part are the very things Jesus preached against. Democrats care about the sick, the elderly, the infirm, health care, the poor, helping the weak, furthering mankind as a whole, living in peace. Helping our fellow man. Contrast that to the Repub so called values. All greed, hate, fear, war, and F' you I got mine, and power. Jesus never said hate gays, Muslims, to subjugate women, to trample the poor, but there are a lot of people who will wave the Bible and try to tell you that is is OK, because "God said so". But Jesus didn't and there in lies the rub. It is one of my theories about Republicans is that the reason they hate Democrats is that we remind them of the way life should be, and, just like the Beatles' "Yellow Submarine's" Blue Meanies, they will do anything they can to stomp us out. And they will, unless we speak up, and be louder than they are. I almost think YS is an allegory about what is going on with American politics today.

I note that you do not talk about the insults that Repubs fling in their posts, just how I respond to them. So you are saying it's OK to try to reason with a person who starts out insulting and lying? It is really unrealistic to expect a reasoned approach to work on these people? They prove their unreasonableness right out the gate, and they will continue to fling their poo until they are shut up. When reason and civility doesn't work, then what? Shut up and go away? Forget about it? Hope that someday, they will come to see the light? Dream on. Sorry, we would have never had Bush as president, if these tactics worked. Remember the circumstance of his coronation - a co-ordinated attack on democracy, that we, the "reasonable" people of America were totally overwhelmed with. If we had pushed back and Gore was allowed to be president things would be much different.

Guess what- the Repubs will keep doing it - lying, attacking, stealing, intimidating. It worked once and again, so why not keep doing it? That is the way they work, and, just like responding to a bully, and they are bullies, there are few ways to stop them, but the most effective is pushing back hard enough to make them stop and see that they had better not try it again. Hit them hard in a sensitive spot.

If you saw one of my responses to a bagger, you will see a method: I respond in the same manner they do, using some of the same methods to get the ball rolling, then go in with the facts, and emphasize the Repub failure track record and the fact that all they have is hate and fear and failure, and no proof that they can lead, then lay enough bait to get them to respond- make them think they can spout more BS and get away with it. The bagger will always respond with more lies, derision and hate, and that is when I do not respond but bore in with the point that this is proof that their party is a failure, and back it with facts. Pattern: use their bait words and phrases against them, attack as proven failures and back with facts, and keep at it when they do not respond to the facts or come out with more lies. You have to know at all times that you are dealing with a bully who only knows power and rules by fear and intimidation, but does not know his own weaknesses.

[Better Today]

14. Your long answer is a waste of time to read. You put in your OP, "You are a failure as a Christian"

That is a personal insult. Apparently you're too obtuse or dense to figure when to shut up. Your friends are right, if you can't avoid or apparently even recognize the personal insults you throw, then you should honor their request to stay away. I know you sure wouldn't be welcome in my home or on my FB page (if I had one.)

[BeFree]

19. Heh

So what does BT do? Launches into personal attacks.

I guess you are uncomfortable around fighting Dems?

""Wouldn't be welcome in my home" you say? Are you feeling personally challenged here, in this 'house', the DU house?

Seems as if you are uncomfortable here. Hmmm

[Better Today]

29. Exaggerate much? Just because I dislike seeing namecalling

from our side because it lowers our collective IQ, it makes us similar to the assholes we're fighting, shows us as being as if not more immature than they, etc. doesn't make me angry. I am not nor was I yesterday, angry about this. Just commenting on it. It's only a forum and not worth getting worked up about. I do however type briefly and I suppose that can come across as terse or angry.

It's just really discouraging to see the namecalling of anyone, when facts should be sufficient, or some of the other BS I see here and from our pundits like screwing up people's names in a clearly derogatory way (Keith is particularly annoying with this one). IMO, when we have FACTS on our side as we definitely do, we should focus on those, we should win using those, not by reverse engineering their bullying tactics.

[passy]

25. You sound like you are a failure as an intelligent human being.

Would that be a personal insult?
You are no doubt getting upset, because your own chosen personal beliefs, make you find it offensive to call a fellow christian a "FAILURE" when he fails to behave in an appropriate manner for somebody who is supposedly meant to follow the teachings of the Christian faith. Ask yourself why that is.
A doctor who cures a patient's headache by chopping his head off, is a failure as a doctor.
If you call yourself a christian and refuse to behave like one then you are a failure as a christian. It's as simple as that.
So would it be possible to insult someone by saying that they are a failure as an intelligent human being?
Well to start with it is almost impossible to define what an intelligent human being is and there is absolutely no dogma associated with being a human.
However when you say that the person you are replying to is obtuse and dense, well I guess that is the closest you can get to calling him a failure as an intelligent human being. Is that a very christian thing to do, to insult someone's intelligence?

[Better Today]

31. Yes, in my book that would be a personal insult, and entirely reflective of the

person speaking/typing rather than on the person it was said against.

[passy]

34. I don't mind you participating but read replies now and then...

It seems that you have yet to learn how to read a text properly. You should try to read it in its entirety and then maybe try to understand the argument the author is proposing. You failed to do that previously when you got hung up on a little phrase that somehow upset you for personal reasons, which led you to criticize the author and to totally dismiss his argument. Then I post a reply addressed to you questioning your motives and calling you out for actually insulting the author and what do you do, well you only read the first two lines of my reply and that's it.
If you feel the need to participate in a discussion please try and do it a manner that doesn't embarrass you, by actually commenting or replying to what is being written.

[ThomCat]

5. Everyone uses their own tactics.

If you like to be confrontational, do it! Good for you! :)

If others like to be friendly and take a more gradual, reasoned approach, thinking that republicans can be reasoned with, well, good for them too! I hope they are right, but I have rarely seen that be true. People do not go into discussions or debates looking to have their views changed, and the more you prove them wrong, the more they dig in their heals and believe whatever they believed.

There was even a study posted not to long ago about this, that people can't be convinced by reasoned discourse, because people actually take pride in their views no matter how much you prove them wrong. The more wrong you prove them to be, the stronger their defense of those beliefs become.

I don't know if the study tracked those people over time though, to see if their beliefs changed later on, after having time to go away, sleep on it, and think and reflect back on what was said. Maybe after they have satisfied their need to defend their views, maybe they go away and think about changing their views when they are safely alone. :shrug:

I would like to make one suggestion if I may. Please break your post into paragraphs. It would make your post easier to read. I have poor eyesight, and I'm sure I'm not the only DUer. Even on a large print size, your post is physically painful to read because of the density of it. :(

[azureblue]

8. thanks

I broke it up a bit...

I am not confrontational by nature. But I have seen that it is time to be confrontational, to stand up and speak loudly, to call out the lies and hate. Certainly, their are still a few Repubs who will reason, but they are being brainwashed by Fox, ad nauseum, and no news sources are pushing back. Many of them do not search for facts or sources on the net, so they start accepting lies as fact, because the lies have been told too many times. And we have until Nov 5 to get them to see the reality of the Republican party. We cannot sit by, risking the chance that another Repub tool will get elected by uniformed people- the spectre of another Repub takeover is scary. We cannot sit by and try to be reasonable while another gay kid kills him or herself because they were bullied. How would you feel if you decided to just keep quiet, and discovered that you could have said something that would have a positive affect on somebody's life? Or gave them a reason to change their minds and vote for people who care about this country and its citizens? Think about it.

[AmerVoicesUnited]

6. AWESOME!

I truly believe there are more Democrats engaged in this election than what's being reported. Some speak out and loudly, like you. Others hold their thoughts quietly, but strongly. I'm just hoping that both types of Dems get out and vote. Trying to reason with a tea-bagging Repub is useless. Like you said, you get nothing but lies, hypocrisy, and insults.

[heide70]

10. You have Boldness my friend:-)

I do basically the same, but not by calling the Reps stupid, just blatantly blind, and brainwashed.:-(
I send them debunking material in form of intelligent writings I find on the Internet.
In Germany, my native country we don't zip our mouth, but speak up loud with factual information.
Actually I have made some died in the wool GOP friends who are now leaning toward the
Democratic party. It took me some time and also taking some insults, but it can be done.
One thing you need; you have to know what you are talking about, and talking we need
to do. I understand that many Reps are sick of the so called Tea Party. Good for us:-)

[Fumesucker]

11. I used to post on RW sites quite a bit..

The easiest and quickest way to shut them up is to stick strictly to the facts and logic, leave personal insults out completely.

I found that was the quickest way to get banned from RW sites, they _want_ you to get personal and throw insults it confirms their prejudices against liberals, they really hate it if you stick strictly to facts and logic.

[Hawkowl]

15. A kindred spirit!

I do the same in person. I just can't let them get away with it anymore. I will embarass, ridicule, shout, whatever it takes to let them know that liberals can fight, and can fight and win! Kudos to you!

[tulsakatz]

16. God said so?

how do they know God said so? Did he personally tell them? Or did they read something in the bible and then interpreted it to mean 'coming from God'.

If they tell you God talked to them.....there could be a LOT of things you could do with that! Beginning with, they could be hearing voices that are not really there. As in a possible mental disorder.....

[Hannah Bell]

17. i generally agree. kudos for you.

[DirkGently]

18. Absolutely. The thesis being pushed is that angry screaming = fact-based reasoning. It doesn't.

[pipi_k]

20. Not to burst your bubble or anything...

but it's unlikely you'll "save" the country by telling people to shut up.

You will silence them, yes.

But you will not change their minds, and you will not change the way they vote.


so, basically, you're doing it for the express purpose of fighting with others. If that's your idea of a good time, then what the hell...go for it.

But nothing changes except you've silenced someone who is STILL going to vote the way s/he wants.

whatever...

:shrug:

[BeFree]

24. bull mularkey

We will change their minds by telling the truth.

If the truth hurts them deep inside, good.

Their lies and cheating have caused untold millions a great amount of undue suffering. They need a taste of their own medicine.

[pipi_k]

28. Well good luck with that...

I do have a suggestion, though.

Find yourself a nice group of RW nuts or "teabaggers".

Beat them over the heads with the TRUTH.

Harangue them. Call them stupid for not seeing the TRUTH.

Keep doing it for as long as they continue to allow themselves to be harangued, then ask if you've changed their minds.

Then come back here and tell us all how it worked for ya.


I'm sure they'll probably be trying to do the same with you. Both sides believe they have the key to THE TRUTH, but we know we're right. And righteous.


:eyes:

[bigmonkey]

33. Somtimes, by arguing back strenuously, you convince the onlookers.

I'm not convinced that strong argument doesn't convince. It's unlikely to convince the person you're arguing with right then, but:

1. They may continue thinking about it and realize later that you were correct. This has actually happened to me, and I mean by that that I've been contacted by the person I was arguing with to tell me that.
   
   
2. The people who are watching the argument, either online or in real space, can be convinced by the arguments they hear.
   

I try to stick to facts, but if the person is claiming authority through their superior Xtian qualities, pointing out that they are in fact failing to follow Jesus' teachings or example is appropriate. Similarly, if they want to use the Old Testament to justify their actions, it seems mean but is appropriate to point out that those rules were explicitly superseded by the New Testament.

[pipi_k]

35. I guess it depends on what you mean by "strenuously"

Remaining calm and rational, citing facts, yes. I can see where it might succeed, but only with people who don't have strongly held beliefs...only wrong facts that can be countered with actual facts. And the individuals have to be rational.


But the majority of people lots of DUers like the OP seem to run into appear to be the irrational type.

Those are the ones it's pointless to engage in debate/conversation unless the aim is to discharge pent-up anger and then feel all self-righteous.

[bigmonkey]

55. Arguing with the irrational type _publicly_ can have a positive social effect.

Yes, the one you're arguing with is irrational, but people watching see them countered. It's worth something to do that.

[Kahuna]

53. Some people actually do react positively when confronted with

a common sense approach to seeing things. If you talk to five people and only one person is able to see things your way, that is progress.

[lumberjack_jeff]

21. Civility is overrated. n/t

[BeFree]

22. "No more of your BS" ---- Write ON!!

Saw some elected pubbies last night and told them I used to have respect for republicans but over the last ten years have they lost it, totally.

They know. They really do know that their party is a sham. That their ideas are false and their leadership is criminal.

I almost feel sorry for them. Trapped as they are.

Over the next five weeks they must be pummeled. Reminded of the truth.

Ask them, why are they a republican. They have no good answer.
They should be ashamed and publicly humiliated until they repent.

OP's like this make me proud. Write On, azureblue.

[flamingdem]

23. K + R

[TheKentuckian]

26. Largely support your path. The asskicking wing needs to grow relentless and the Alan Colmes posse

needs to recognize that their tactics do not work and generally seem to make matters worse. Pukes do not respect weakness or compromise.

The namby pamby wing believes most people think like them and in that, they are truly delusional.

[Scruffy1]

43. You got that right-liberals have just never figured out

that you can get nowhere being nice to assholes. The media makes me sick the way they kiss the ass of these neo-fascists.

[felix_numinous]

27. Goopers

:thumbsup:

[AuntPatsy]

30. Read this yesterday but did not have time to k&r, glad I still had the time...

all bets are off, don't back down..good for you...I have found that alot of what is going around as far as using the internet emails to further bash the democratic party is nothing more than unfunny jokes that nine times out of ten are bordering on racism though all are spiteful and meaningless in the long run, sadly for some still holding on to their own personal racist issues, its more than enough to keep their vote..sick and twisted...thankfully I honestly believe the majority of american citizens do not fit the mold of sick and twisted so we will win in the end...

[lib_wit_it]

32. I'm glad you're challenging their lies, but as others have said, it is probably better to avoid

outright personal attacks. I am prone to responding angrily, myself. I am just so sick and tired of the RWers spewing out their lies and bigotry that I want to scream. And it only gets me more upset that few ever call BS on them.

Most people are petrified of any sort of confrontation. Some are so fragile that they can't even stand for people to disagree openly. To those I say, Buck up, matey. Since the RWers are always out there shooting their mouths off, if no one ever disagrees with them, they always have the final word. Their lies and distortions stand, unchallenged.

Others can handle it if the disagreement is very low key. The problem here is that, despite their own tendency to be the ones who start the political talk, RWers bristle at any push-back, no matter how civil. They are very easily insulted. In these cases I ask, If you can't stand the heat, why did you turn on the stove?

As long as I've stuck to the facts and held my tongue about how idiotic I think they are, I expect others to respect my right to express my opinion. If friends or family get upset then, I find it ridiculous.

If I lose my temper and name call or attack personally, I have to respect that few people want to witness that and often will side with the RWer, even if they don't agree with their positions.

This has happened to me a lot, so I'm working on presenting facts. I assume that the person who launched the "Here's what's wrong with the evil liberal Democrats (even though often they are attacking rather centrist positions as "radical"), will not be influenced by the facts. However, others who read the exchange may be more open-minded and may actually learn something that supports progress.

If I can't handle it this way, I try not to respond. If I can inject some reality and factual information into the discussion on facebook, comment sections, etc., then, I think I may be helping the cause. I will often just post facts without directly replying to any particular poster's comments. And I think if more of us do that, our cause will benefit.

Let the RWers be the angry ranters. Let us focus on the facts, minus the fact that the RWers are evil and/or idiotic. This is my goal. None of us is perfect. Just ask Christine O'Donnell. She's not a witch.

[femrap]

36. I am a fighter like you....

call them on their BS. Sometimes I think Dems are too nice.

[The Uncola]

37. What's a Facebook?

:silly:

No...

.. seriously, with all of the grief people seem to get from there, why would I even consider using it?

[rucky]

38. What did your friends expect?

They post a political item to their friends - some of them they know are political on both sides of the spectrum - and there's a place for comments. What did they think would happen? Duh.

[Bigmack]

39. I've been told that I'm "negative"...

because I call them on their FWD FWD FWD FWD bullshit viral emails. I hit them with snopes, politifact, answer.com, whatever, and point out that if somebody wrote that email, it was a lie, and the people who send them around without checking are abetting that lie.

My two favorite phrases for ending my emails...

"You do believe truth is better than lies... don't you?"

"Facts have a notorious Liberal bias."

[BlancheSplanchnik]

40. It's RIGHT to call the "right" what they are!!

Telling the truth IS the high road



I'm sick of the "diplomatic" approach

[Martin Eden]

41. Are you getting any support?

I'm the captain of a senior softball team (50+ competetive tournaments) and the group passes around the usual funny emails -- but lately one of the teabagger types (we are after all a bunch of middle-aged white guys) has been forwarding RW political BS. I finally had to respond, and without being too insulting I destroyed the lies in the email with irrefutable facts. Despite most of the team being of the GOP sort, the only 3 responses were very supportive of my position.

However, after that I issued a plea for no more political emails. We are a team that gets along and plays very well together -- and I don't want to ruin that with the political acrimony that is so prevalent in this country. There is a time and a place for everything.

[lonestarnot]

42. Like trying to argue with the bag that called in for her Sunday edition.

"WHERE is my SUNDAY paper?!"
The irate customer calling the newspaper office, loudly demanded to know where her Sunday edition was.


"Madam", said the newspaper employee, "today is Saturday. The Sunday paper is not delivered until tomorrow, on SUNDAY".
There was quite and long pause on the other end of the phone, followed by a ray of recognition as she was heard to mutter,
"Well, shit, that explains why no one was at church today."

[pgodbold]

44. Big hug and a wet kiss on the cheek! Wonderful!

[ElsewheresDaughter]

45. we need more like you on FB....stand tall and hold your ground..keep fighting the good fight!

I will do the same.:yourock:

[The Wizard]

46. Two standard replies

No one cares what Republicans have to say unless it's under oath, and no one believes them even when they are.
Kindly furnish me with a peer reviewed document that supports your allegations.

[varelse]

47. You have the right idea

thanks for sticking to your guns.

[bertman]

48. Just had a conversation with a friend today who lives in an area infested

with rightwingtards. She was bitching about how some of them are on disability and get food stamps and housing assistance, yet they are Republicans! She can't understand that.

I do. It's called stupidity and ignorance.

Azureblue, your method may not be gentile, but it confronts them with the REALITY of their ignorance and stupidity. That in and of itself is important. Rest assured that some of them are going to have your words ringing in their ears and they may actually start to THINK instead of reacting.

Good for you!! Rec.

[Kahuna]

54. Yep! And if not now, maybe later when they personally observe

the truth in what Azureblue has spoken. :patriot:

[creon]

49. There are ways

There are ways to get your point across without being insulting. use your imagination and way with words and sense of humor to disarm them. You are not reallly talking to them; rather to other people who are reading what you write.

[elocs]

50. People believe what they believe and will only rarely change their minds

or even consider an opposing viewpoint, and that includes us.

How many of us would even consider that somebody from the other side might even have a point? Very rare since the dichotomy is one of good and evil. We obviously consider our beliefs and viewpoints to be those of good and theirs evil. They believe the same of us. And since they hold the view that compromise is a sin, then it is difficult to find any middle ground of agreement.

In the end arguments have little to do with changing minds. They may be good as an instrument to make you feel good about your positions or that you really put the other side in their place, but in the end minds were not changed and the battle lines are more deeply drawn and the entrenched viewpoints reinforced. In the end it would seem more of a matter of motivating your side to act on their beliefs and get things done than in changing other minds.

[blackspade]

51. Right on.

When they lie, say so!

[peabody]

52. I'm sort of in a similar but different

situation. Ever since joining facebook and hooking up with old friends, I found out a lot of them are right-wing zombies. I've resisted commenting for fear I might lose a friend over it but it's just getting out of hand now. And I feel that unless I speak up, they just won't be challenged and keep thinking that they're right and everybody else agrees. So, I think I'm going to challenge them more and start putting up more links to progressive and liberal sites. I'm bracing for war.