My time as a volunteer firefighter

[MadHound]

Years and decades ago I moved to a lovely, rural area in SW Missouri. There was a lake and surrounding it, state park land. Lots of it.

Being an Army Corp lake, there were no buildings on the lakefront, which meant that the lake was, and remains one of cleanest lakes in the country. This also meant that there weren't that many tourists who came to the area (unlike our larger neighbor, Lake of the Ozarks, which allowed lakefront building and the quality of the lake has suffered immensely because of that). It also meant that the tax base was really, really small. The county government was doing good to keep the roads in good order and sheriffs on those roads. There was no money for a fire department.

Which meant that the residents formed a volunteer fire department, funding it by subscriptions, along with the odd grant money we could scrape together. We relied on ancient equipment, some from WWII, most dating from the decade after WWII. We maintained and refurbished that equipment (that was my secondary job on the fire department, I'm good with engines of all sizes and types, thus I spent my free time working on everything from the engine on a 1949 Jeep which had been converted into a brush buggy to the PE-75 electrical generator, which dated back to 1943 (gotta love Briggs and Stratton engines, they just keep running).

I forget what our subscription price was, but I do know it was fairly reasonable. The price for those who utilized our services without having paid for their subscription was indeed pretty steep. This was to encourage people to pay a subscription up front. Most folks paid, but there were some holdouts, as there always is.

January 30th, 1983, I've gotten together with a couple of fire department buddies to watch the Super Bowl, Redskins vs. the Dolphins. I really didn't care about the teams, I hated both of them, but it was the Super Bowl, it was football, and being in winter, it was when the touristas had left and us locals went back to a much slower life. There was beer involved, tequila, and good food. The first half was promising a good, close game, and we were all well into that lovely, mellow drunk that good friends, food and drink can produce.

Just as we had gotten settled in for the second half, the ball had been kicked off, that's when the fire phone rang. I don't know about how it's done now, but back in the day firefighters got their alert over the phone line. If your phone went off on one loooooong ring, which would be repeated until you picked up, there was a fire somewhere, and you were needed.

There is nothing more sobering than a firephone call. Adrenalin kicks in, your mellow drunk disappears, and within moments you are straight as an arrow. I have never, ever experienced that before, nor since. But within the space of two minutes, three men were straight and sober, and running for Fire Station #2 (which was conveniently located about one hundred yards away).

We had just experienced one of the worst storms in a decade. A storm had pulled in out of Oklahoma right before the weekend, laying down a two inch sheet of ice, then dumping a foot and a half of snow on top of it. When the storm pulled out, the skies cleared and the temps plummeted. The sun had set and we were facing low double digit temperatures that would drop below zero later on that night. Which is probably why we had this fire. It was a chimney fire, truly a sight to behold. This was an old, three story wood frame house, built late in the nineteenth century. It sported lightning rods and a ten foot chimney, which was now shooting fireballs into the night sky that we could see from a mile away as we came racing through the night, skidding and sliding our two old pumpers on road that far from clear or safe.

We were the first ones there, three of us from the football game, and three others who met us there. The others from the eastern fire department would get there soon, but we started setting up, hauling hose, and securing the scene. It was the home of an older couple. The house was paid for, it was their only real asset. They lived off of Social Security and his small pension, and since the Reagan recession was still ravaging Missouri, times were tough and they had been forced to drop their subscription fees in order to pay for their medications and food.

No matter, at that point we just cared about putting out the fire. It had caught the roof on fire, and was running around up in the attic. If something wasn't done quickly, this old house would catch like the tinderbox it was and become a pile of ashes.

Long story short, we beat that fire. It took a lot of effort, it took three hours. All of us were beat to hell by the weather, cold, with icicles hanging down the back of our helmets, while our faces were bright red from being toasted by the fire. The couple's house suffered some upper story damage, and smoke damage throughout, but it stood and insurance took care of the repairs.

The point of this story is that we didn't care that couple hadn't paid for their subscription fee. We didn't care that we had been called out from our leisure on a bitter winter night. All we cared about was putting out that fire and saving that home. After all, these were our neighbors, members of our community, and you simply don't turn your back on them over lapsed fees. You take care of the monetary details afterward. When the firephone rings and the shit is hitting the fan, you do what firefighters have always done, run towards the burning building when everybody else is running away.

When we got back to our station, the game was long gone. Bob went down to his house, retrieved the beer and tequila and brought it back up to the station. We had a couple of good stiff belts while we put everything back in order and made ready for the next time we got the call. We laughed and made jokes, got a bit silly in the middle of the night. But most importantly we basked in the glow of the fact that we had once again done our job, and had done it well. We were firefighters, and its what we're supposed to do.

The couple did pay us for our services, though they had to make payments for a couple of years. They also found the money to pay for the subscription fee. And for the next ten years, until the wife died, the local fire department gathering for the Super Bowl always got a huge pan of delicious brownies. We loved those brownies, but the fact is what I love most is that when I still go back for a visit, that grand old three story farm house still stands. The old couple passed away long ago, but their one of their kid's family moved in, and are now approaching retirement age themselves.

The point of this rambling recollection is this: If you are a firefighter, when that firephone rings, you answer it, you go do your job. It doesn't matter if you're drunk, if you're missing the Super Bowl, if it is cold, slick and dangerous outside. It doesn't matter if somebody has paid their fee or not. What matters is that when others are running away from danger, you are running towards it. Nothing else matters, not money, not fees, nothing. If, as a firefighter, you are not running towards that danger, for whatever reason, and especially for monetary reasons, then you are a disgrace to the uniform, a disgrace to the profession and frankly you should be kicked out of the force for good.

What these "firefighters" did in TN was simply unconscionable. This so called "fire department" is not a fire department, but rather a gang of extortionists, using fire to wring money out of the population. Frankly, they should all be kicked off the force, and the entire department cleaned out. Because they have lost sight of the firefighter's prime duty, to run towards danger when everybody else is running away. It's that simple.

I know that there are umpteen million threads on this right now, and I had promised myself yesterday not to post a thread myself. But the reactions of so many people here have utterly disgusted me, this cavalier, libertarian attitude of many people here. Thus, I thought I would share my experience in this matter, thinking that an opinion from somebody who had been through something similar would be relevant. Take it for what you will, but for those of you who have not been involved in emergency services, you simply don't realize how strong the call is, how strong that pull is, how strong that dictate is, that you run towards danger when others are running away. It is that simple, and if you don't have that drive, like these folks in TN, then you need to find yourself another profession.

[Jamastiene]

1. K&R

[SharonAnn]

85. If they responded to a non-subscribers fire, they might also have assumed liability issues.

Here in Tennessee, that's a really big issue.

How do I know? Because I spend the last two years on a task force trying to figure out a way to improve firefighter coverage in our community. Lots of government meetings, meeting with legislators in Nashville, area fire chiefs and the state fire chief, lawyers, and volunteer fire departments. It's not an easy issue here. You have lots of state laws, liability issues, and what unincorporated areas are permitted (or not permitted) to do by statute.

It's pretty incredible, but if the county won't officially fund a fire department, there are few options. Subscription is one of them, but you have to absolutely abide by it or you are exposed to liability issues. Your fire department is not protected by the protection that municipalities, county governments, and other agencies are when you operate outside your legal structure. The subscription method is a legal structure.

[MadMaddie]

86. Instead of subscription why not just add $75.00

to their yearly home/county taxes? I am guessing they would fight that because....gasp it's taxes.

[Hannah Bell]

109. yes. the county has declined to do that several times, most recently in 2009.

[4_TN_TITANS]

132. Another big issue is firefighting while drunk...

I know what you mean about the adrenaline negating much of the alcohol when the call comes in, but the liability is just to great to risk it these days. People are too sue-happy, even if you're just there to help out.

[rrneck]

133. How do you keep a firefighter from fighting a fire?

That's the first thing I wondered. From what I understand they were ordered to stand down (and probably keep it from spreading). Why were they ordered to do so? Was the fire chief a callous prick who would split hairs over seventy five bucks? I doubt it.

I suspected, and those suspicions have been confirmed by you, that there were serious liability issues at the root of the problem. Behind those liability issues there is hiding at least one, and probably several, multi billion dollar insurance companies.

With all the wrangling over the injustices of our health care industry is there any reason to believe that property liability insurance and workers compensation insurance are any different?

Behind this tragedy is a ruthless corporate business model that views essential services as just another source for a revenue stream and the people they designed to protect as a threat to corporate profits.

How many progressives on this board spent their time blaming every little guy they could find and never mentioned the real culprit?

[MadHound]

134. What liability issues?

Frankly I think that these firefighters and fire department just opened themselves up to a lawsuit because they refused to fight a fire. The IAFF and every other fire fighting organization are calling this morally reprehensible, and if they wind up on the stand, that fire department is toast.

[rrneck]

139. Could be.

I don't know the extent of their liability. I don't know that much about how to insure municipal property. I don't know what kind of workman's comp plan they have or what kind of health insurance each firefighter may have. And it wouldn't surprise me one bit if the fire department is toast. They were probably damned if they did and damned if they didn't. It seems to me that the only people who will not see any negative consequences are the insurance companies that won't have to pay dime one as a result of the tragedy.

It looks to me that this is just another example of a corporate oligarchy pushing risk down the economic ladder. But I would like very much to be wrong about it.

[Hannah Bell]

170. It's not municipal property. It's county property, the county won't pay for fire service,

& the municipality has no obligation to put out fires in the county.

No lawsuit is coming.

[One_Life_To_Give]

188. IAFF Really? I can recall their ordering union FF's to stand by

Manchester, CT has had a long running dispute between the Town of Union department and the Volunteer 8th Utilities District. IIRC Union rules for a fire in the District included rescuing people but to not put the fire out unless requested for Mutual Aid by the 8th district FD.

[joeybee12]

2. Ab-so-freaking-lutely! Good for you! KNR

[TexasObserver]

3. And that is the attitude of most who choose to fight fires.

[BoneDaddy]

4. amen brother

thanks 4 being there

[lapislzi]

5. Best thread to date on this done-to-death topic n/t

[MadHound]

7. Like I said, I initially hesitated to join in on the fire dept. threadapalooza.

But the response of a lot of people here really disgusted, discouraged and demoralized me. I thought that a thread from somebody who was once on the force would shed some light on the subject. Thanks for your kind words.

[Blecht]

6. There are good humans around!

Here is proof! Thanks for the story.

[pecwae]

8. There are times when

1 rec isn't nearly adequate.

Thank you for caring and being there when others needed you.

[canetoad]

9. Rec for a great story

It seems to run against human nature to watch something burn and take no steps to put the fire out if you are able.

In the state of Victoria, Australia we have a 2-tier fire fighting structure. The Metropolitan Fire Brigade (MFB) which services the CBD of Melbourne and roughly a 30km radius from there, and the Country Fire Authority (CFA) which handles rural areas, outer suburban, growth corridors etc.

I live in an area serviced by the CFA. It has a multi-million dollar budget which is funded by (75%)fire levies on insurance policies and 25% state government. Apart from management and some high level administration & communication staff, the entire CFA force is volunteer. They are provided with protective clothing, high level training, state-of-the-art vehicles, equipment etc.

In our fire-prone state,every CFA station is the backbone of the community and the volunteers who are called out to fires are treated like gods! Ordinary men and women, risking their lives in often the most extreme conditions. There is no argument over who is deserving or not because they contributed more. When the call comes, they just get out there and put our the fires.

It's nearly two years since the horrendous fires of Black Saturday. The local CFA is 500m from my place; all I heard that day were the sirens as the fire trucks headed out and the ambulances came back in. We lost a couple of these brave volunteers that day but it hasn't made a dent in the volunteer rates.

I can't imagine a world where fire fighters are bound by bureaucracy and whether or not someone has paid their bill.

[COLGATE4]

10. Try funding a township-sponsored fire department with the

good wishes of the people who hadn't paid but who got the benefit of the services anyway.

[MadHound]

15. Then again, what you do is put out the fire,

Charge the non-subscription residents out the ass, and if they fail to pay up, take 'em to court. Gee, it's a system that has worked for decades and decades now.

Sorry, but the crew that refused to fight the fire in TN isn't a fire dept. but an extortion racket using fire to get money.

A true firefighter never walks away from a fire, no matter the status of the resident's fees.

[COLGATE4]

30. I assume we're analogizing this to the Cranick house burning. There is no legal

basis for the town FD to charge Cranick, or take him to court if he failed to pay. That's why his situation was a prepaid subscription service. (And, BTW, the fact that the old folks in the OP eventually paid and even sent brownies is nice, but I sincerely doubt that, if they had failed to pay there would have been anything that could have been done).

[MadHound]

40. If there isn't a legal remedy for collecting unpaid service fees, such as the Craniks' had,

Then that is the fault of whoever drew up the emergency services contract. All of the volunteer fire departments that I know have such legal remedies in their contracts as standard boilerplate.

Oh, and since you are speculating on something that you know nothing about, and I was a witness to, let me set you straight on your misconception. There were people who tried to worm their way out of the service fee we charged for saving their house. They failed. Most paid up upon getting a polite but firm letter on county prosecutor letterhead. The others were taken to court. They then paid the fee, along with all legal expenses.

Try speaking to things you know about, not shit that you speculate on.

[Hannah Bell]

171. Um, since there's no contract, there's no obligation to pay.

[sabrina 1]

83. I have no doubt about the story the OP told. Until two years ago

we lived on an Island off the east coast of LI. And because there were only approx. 2,000 year-round residents, they had to have their own volunteer FD. My SO belonged to it, proudly.

I could tell similar stories to the one in the OP and our friends who are still members there, are still doing what this Firefighter and his Dept. did.

Not once did they ever ask if someone had donated to the FD when there was a fire. Many times I'm sure, people who couldn't pay had their homes saved, and if they were too poor to pay in cash, they would try to help, volunteer for fund-raising events such as the annual Chicken Barbecue.

That Dept. has the best equipment as the community in general donates and volunteers to help them raise money. Several years ago they were able to buy a Fire Boat.

Sorry, but you have far too little faith in people. People get the concept of the 'common good' when they live on small, not very wealthy communities. The wealthy Summer crowd chipped in also.

Where there is a will, there is a way, as many, many small communities like these have demonstrated.

The community where this home was allowed to burn to the ground, needs some community spirit to operate from, rather the rightwing attitude of authoritarianism and punishment. What a horrible way to live, especially when it is not necessary.

[Hannah Bell]

102. tell it to the county that refuses to fund fire services or start a volunteer fire dept

(one engine = $250K).

they're the ones without that old community spirit.

the city's provided them free fire protection for decades.

unincorporated county = 15K
city 2500K

[fasttense]

122. There are other ways to get the money....

The owner was willing to write a check. Get a very large check in hand and prosecute for writing bad checks if it bounces. Every state, county, and city in the US has laws against writing bad checks.

Maybe it would cost the FD money to prosecute but that can be recovered and soon people would get the message.

There are always other methods of getting money, you don't have to let the house burn to the ground.

[Hannah Bell]

151. he says he was. this dispute has been going on for years. do you think the city is unaware of

your "other ways"?

[EFerrari]

17. Try reading the OP. n/t

[Amonester]

25. Why not try funding it with just a small fraction of the unnecessary wars

of aggressions for BP&Co's execs pension checks: http://www.costofwar.com

And after you're finished funding for every FD in the U.S., you'll still have more than plenty left for everybody's healt CARE needs, urgent or not.

For "free". No questions asked.

[calimary]

26. Hear hear!

Endless money there! That would fund SO much that we need here at home, without making us a single additional enemy from our stuipd, misguided imperialist aggression.

[Amonester]

29. Sadly, can't have that, for apparently (for the nutcases) that is a scary

Communist idea... :banghead:

[COLGATE4]

31. Wonderful idea. Now, let's see how to do it????????

[Amonester]

33. Good! How about a massive hunger strike in every street

to begin with?

oops, nobody shows up... (or down)

[Daemonaquila]

54. Sounds like the OP's department did EXACTLY that.

It worked then, it works in other communities, and there's no reason it can't work everywhere.

[InvisibleTouch]

11. Wonderful post, thank you! n/t

[AspenRose]

12. Amen.

My little boy loves firefighters (going to an open house this weekend - it's Fire Prevention Month). I haven't shared the story about what happened in TN with him but maybe I should, because I don't want him to get the idea that all firefighters are like that, or that this kind of action is acceptable among professions who are called to save and protect (police, fire, nursing, MDs, paramedics, etc.).

God bless firefighters :patriot:


K & R

[Erose999]

13. Kick'd and Rec'd. The "cavalier libertarian" attitude of late is destroying our communities

Its a big part of why people don't know/trust their neighbors anymore.

My dad is having a bad experience with some young "libertarians" at his local American Legion. Years ago their post developed some of its property and rented it to retail stores. The agreement was that the income generated by renting out the property would pay lifetime dues for the members once they reached a certain age.

The younger members went on a "libertarian" kick and outvoted the oldtimers to sell the property, and use the money to remodel the Legion hall (when the one they had wasn't even being used to its full capacity). Now the guys like my dad who struggle to get by on Social Security and VA pensions are high and dry. I know my dad has volunteered for color guard on at least 100 military funerals, the liquor license (and the liability that comes with it) was in his name for years, etc. And these "libertarian" douchebags sold him out just to add more pool tables and TV's.

[Spazito]

14. Excellent OP...

Having lived in a rural area serviced by volunteer firemen, and having known most of them, they thought and felt just as you do, "...how strong the call is, how strong that pull is, how strong that dictate is, that you run towards danger when others are running away."

Recommended.

[Dappleganger]

16. Great post, a giant K&R!

[AuntPatsy]

18. This needs a R&K along with Hannah's op I feel, two apparently different views but both

important, thank you for being who you are and for helping that poor couple, there are always two sides to every story, sometimes people are never made aware nor care about both and that I have found out is humanity's biggest fail...

[Agony]

19. Not so sure about the drunk part, but as a fellow adrenalin junkie ROCK ON!

You are dead on.

I don't care whose house it, I don't care if they paid or didn't pay, I do not care if they are a total asshole or not. I am going, period, end of story.

The fire department budget will survive while we work on the politics. if it takes decades to change attitude.

Cheers!
Agony

(sorry that should have been REGGAE ON!)

[ceile]

20. Thank you for posting

Agree 100%.

[Fumesucker]

21. Thanks for a good story, I appreciate your position and I'm reccing even though I disagree..

To some extent.

Kudos to you for what you have done..

[Amonester]

22. You truly are a hero to me and most DUers here, thank you so much.

I am so grateful to you for writing this awesome testimony of courage and humanity here.

Bookmarked for keeps, and if it could be possible to rate my bookmarks here, your story would rank at the top forever.


OTOH, how many $75 in this waste: http://www.costofwar.com would cover everybody, their heath CARE needs, their pets and vegetables?

[Parker CA]

23. Killer post! Excellent!!! nt.

[bvar22]

24. Well Said!

We put out fires.
We do NOT let anybody's home burn.

[Bluerthanblue]

27. K&R with thanks

for spelling this out so clearly and correctly-

:hi:

[SidDithers]

28. Great freakin' post...

"You take care of the monetary details afterward."

Exactly. Put out the fire first, worry about the bill after. Let the lawyers fight it out in the courts, if need be. Maybe, if a few judgements go the way of the Fire Department, the stupid system that allows for a subscription fire service will change, and this crazy situation will go the way of the Dodo.

Sid

[struggle4progress]

32. Obion county has chosen to provide no fire service, not even volunteer fire departments

In fact, the county explicitly rejected a plan to set up a county volunteer fire department. The only fire services offered in Obion county are offered by city fire departments, funded by city residents. But about three-quarters of the fire calls answered by these fire departments are from fires outside the cities -- because most people in the county aren't city residents. Moreover, the average city resident has substantially lower income than the average county resident living outside the cities

The demand that the city fire departments ought to provide services to everyone in the county, without any criteria, is an unconscionable demand for a smaller and poorer segment of the population to subsidize services for a larger and wealthier segment of the population. It's quite simply disgusting that the more affluent majority in Obion county expects a less affluent minority of its citizens to provide free fire services for them -- and it's even more disgusting that the more affluent majority there is seeking to shame city residents into providing such free services by pointing fingers at the city firefighters. The cities have a fiduciary responsibility here: they had a limited revenue stream, and their first obligation is to the taxpayers who actually fund the existing fire departments with their tax dollars

I'm sorry the Craniks' trailer burned. According to reports, the city fire department has saved their bacon before: I have read that the Craniks hadn't paid their subscription fee the last time the city fire department rescued them and that they were nevertheless ungrateful enough to stiff the city fire department on the fire call fee for that visit. The fire season is Tennessee is fast upon us, and the hazards of burning are in the news; nevertheless, the Craniks were burning trash in an uncontrolled manner, and I should suspect they were burning household trash in flagrant violation of state law. It's a tragedy, but not an entirely innocent one.

Almost all the city firefighters are volunteers, and they are no doubt brave and dedicated folk who would much prefer that no one's house burned down. But their moral responsibility can only be meaningful if it has appropriately limited scope: they cannot be effective if their service district responsibilities exceed their capabilities or if their operating costs exceed their budget. Why should city volunteer firefighters have infinite sympathy for a county that refuses to establish a volunteer fire service for the unincorporated regions that account for three quarters of the county fire calls? County residents currently stiff the city fire departments for tens of thousands of dollars annually in agreed-upon but unpaid fees for fire calls to county fires outside city limits

Such tragedies can, of course, be avoided: with a paltry property tax of 13 cents per $100 assessed value, Obion county could guarantee fire protection to everyone. The Republicans of Obion county instead chose a less satisfactory opt-in contract-with-the-city arrangement for residents, but want to point fingers when the city does not provide service to non-subscribers. It is clear that the city fire department does not much like the current arrangement but the city cannot force the county to provide uniform fire protection. Various grants and matching funds are also available

[HelenWheels]

34. Why did the fire department even show up?

[COLGATE4]

37. Because a neighbor (who HAD paid his service fee) called

them because he was afraid the fire would spread to his house. They came to protect him, not Cranick.,

[MadHound]

35. It still comes down to one simple principle, you put out the fire, period.

You worry about the monetary issues afterward. If the Craniks' were trying to stiff the fire department on fees, you throw it to the county prosecutor for breach of contract. If your legal beagles foolishly set up the contract without this stipulation, then you take them to civil court.

But under no circumstances do you allow anything, money, politics, personal feelings, get in the way of fulfilling your primary duty as a firefighter, namely putting out that fire.

It's that simple.

[COLGATE4]

36. There's no contract. There's no breach of contract. The County

Prosecutor handles criminal, not civil matters.

[MadHound]

38. Wow, you really don't know a damn thing about how such fire services operate, do you

Of course there is a contract, there is always a contract when it comes to emergency services. If you go look at Hannah Bell's thread on this topic, you can even download a copy of the contract.

The breach of contract comes about like this, at least in an emergency services contract that is worth the paper it's written on. Each and every homeowner is informed about how the fire department is set up. They are given the contract to read, sign and return. In most contracts it specifies the amount of the subscription, on a monthly basis. It also informs you, as a homeowner, that if the fire department is called to fight a fire, and you don't pay a subscription fee, then you are liable for X amount of money, generally a standard fee, plus any fees incurred from damage, etc. to the fire department equipment (for example, if you have an above ground gas tank that explodes and damages one of the tankers, you, as a non-subscriber are liable for those damages, above and beyond any other fees to be paid). It also states, in any contract worth the paper it's written on, that if you fail to pay these fees, as a non-subscriber, the types of legal actions that can and will be taken against you, including criminal prosecution, liens, etc.

This is all put in place so that these very types of situations don't occur. Having these sort of contracts are beneficial for all, since they insure that there is full fire coverage no matter what, thus lowering insurance rates for everybody in the district.

[Hannah Bell]

47. where is this contract you speak of? you cite my post but i've seen no such contract.

the only people the city has a contract with are those who pay $75 for fire protection.

[MadHound]

50. Wow, the city was more negligent that previously advertised

Who did they have running their legal department, clowns?

You don't take on the responsibility of providing out of district fire service without establishing contractual relations with those people that you are going to be potentially protecting. You are protecting a district not individuals.

[liberation]

53. I don't think "negligent" means what you think it does...

... not if you go around putting words on other people's mouths, and when confronted with that fact you simply move on as if it never happened.

BTW, technically the whole point is that that house did not belong to the district to begin with. You don't seem to understand that a "contract" involves more than one party.

[EFerrari]

58. The department does inded have a service agreement with

the district in which the residence burned down. It's on their website.

[Hannah Bell]

92. link?

[Hannah Bell]

91. link for your assertion?

[MadHound]

98. Oh, there is no link for contracts between emergency services and community members

You know that, that's why you're trying to score one on the cheap by peeping up with "Link, link." However I'm sure that you are willing to take the time out to educate yourself, so I suggest that you hie thee off to your nearest volunteer fire force, and ask them about the terms of service contracts. I think that you'll find that they are much the same as I describe.

[Hannah Bell]

101. look, someone said it was on a website. i looked for the website & couldn't find it.

you say there's a contract with the county as a body. such agreements in my town *are* usually noted in city & county meetings on the web.

i;m asking you to back up your claim. i've seen no evidence of any contract with the county as a whole. the county as a whole didn't want to contract with the city. which is why it opted to let *individuals* contract as *individuals*.

so if there's a contract between the county & city, i'd just like to read it. no need to get pissed, you made the claim.

but i don;t think any such generalization can be made as you did about "normal" policy at this level of government for all 50 states & their various subdivisions.

[struggle4progress]

41. You want to perpetuate a scam, in which county residents claim

city firefighters have some moral responsibility to protect them but are unwilling to contribute to the costs. The foreseeable outcome of your stance is that city residents bear the cost of county fire protection, either by jacking up city tax rates to cover those costs or by skimping on equipment maintenance/replacement, so that less reliable equipment and inadequate teams respond to fires

The current sucky libertarian arrangement ($75 annual subscription fee + $500 per fire call) is what the county's Republican rulers decided they want: the city does not seem very happy about it, and I imagine the firefighters would much prefer to take the view you outlined in the OP. But the positive moral responsibilities of individuals and organizations cannot extend beyond their actual capabilities: if the city fire department does not have an adequate budget to respond effectively to all county fires, without risking equipment failure or staff shortages associated with operations not supported by budget, then one cannot sensibly claim the city fire department has any positive moral responsibility to respond to all county fires

Pointing fingers at the fire department here is just a red herring: it's useless noise without pragmatic solution of the realm problem. If one wants to avoid such incidents in the future, one ought to try to extend uniform fire coverage to the whole of Obion county: that is the only solution that makes sense. I made some remarks about that in my prior post

[MadHound]

42. Not perpetuating a scam, I am perpetuating what is the moral and ethical duty of any fireman

What it sounds like here is that the city and county came to an agreement that had no provisions for enforcement. That was utterly stupid on the part of whoever drew up that emergency services contract.

But for a fire department to fail in their primary duty, no matter the legal, political or monetary situation is simply wrong.

[struggle4progress]

43. You insist the city fire department has a primary duty outside the city limits

But the city fire department is a city entity, established by city taxpayers, and its primary duty is to fight city fires. Because the county has REFUSED to establish a fire service, the city for many years has responded to county fires, at a cost to city residents. Since there are three times as many fire calls from outside the city, the county's failure to provide uniform access to fire service represents a substantial abdication of a clear county responsibility

Many county residents won't pay for fire service but expect the city taxpayers to provide them with fire service for free. It's a scam, and all the political noise about "firefighters' moral responsibilities" is just bullying to support the scammers

[MadHound]

45. It is the simple fact that they are a fire department

That establishes their primary duty.

If the county sets up a contract on subscription basis, fine, but they need to set up the contract with an enforcement provision.

You don't show up to a fire only to sit and watch it burn. That is not right, that is not moral. It is that simple.

[Hannah Bell]

46. they didn't show up at the fire only to watch it burn. they didn't respond to the call at all.

they responded to a different homeowner's call later, put out his fire, and left.

[MadHound]

49. And thus they failed to do their duty.

You get a call, you see a fire, you put that fire out.

I suppose on that night, long ago, when I was coming home and saw an overturned car by the side of the local dead man's curve, I should have just rolled on, hmmm? After all, I hadn't gotten a call about this particular car being overturned, and it was the car of an out of state tourista who you just know didn't pay the local subscription fees.

Good thing I did, wound up pulling a couple of kids out of the car, one of which was in desperate need of medical care.

[EFerrari]

56. Good samaritans enable the libertarian takeover of America.

That guy I found with heatstroke in the Outer Sunset, I should have just left him on the sidewalk. Who knew by helping him I was enabling the destruction of this country.

And that homeless guy passed out on Lincoln Avenue that I almost ran over -- I should have left him in the street. What am I, a volunteer EMT? He probably doesn't pay taxes, anyway. If he got run over by the next driver, that's just logical consequence.

Same for that lady that I stopped from beating on her kid with a hairbrush. That kid just wanted a free ride in that stroller. Do I look like the beat cop? Moocher. There is no free law enforcement in San Francisco.

[Hannah Bell]

99. i think you realize your analogy won't hold up to examination.

[olegramps]

125. What about the moral obligation of the homeowner?

It is your contention that the fire department had a moral obligation to put out the fire. That is your opinion and basically I will agree with you. However, doesn't the homeowner have the Primary moral obligation to protect his family and pets as well the entire community by ensuring that he has fire protection? It appears to me that the fire department is taking all the blame for this intolerable situation when it is the homeowner that deserves the most blame.

[Hannah Bell]

93. wait, before you said they had a contract with the district. now it's just because they're a fire

department. which is it? what are you saying?

my city has a fire department too. is it obligated to fight fires in obion county?

wtf?

[sabrina 1]

147. But if some ARE paying, then the City has agreed to

go out of their area of responsibility, haven't they? There had to have been an agreement for that. That is what people are saying. And if there was not, then it was being done on the honor system. 'You pay $75 to the City FD and they will show up if your house goes on fire'. I cannot imagine they do not have some kind of written agreement for that since there is money involved.

[droidamus2]

115. Absolutely agree

The fire department and the firemen should not be a pawns in the political and economic games between the City and County. As you have stated over and over the firemen should be left alone to do what firemen do and that is put out fires. If the idiots (I would guess when people say 'the county' it is either a few officials or an election was held and the 'I don't want to pays' won which means even those that voted to pay are subject to having the fire department let their houses burn if the don't, forget or can't pay the fee)in those government entities can't get their acts together then they should be removed from office and replaced with somebody more competent. Again, this is two separate questions not one. Question one, what do firefighters do? They fight fires, period. Question 2, how do you pay for the services that firefighters provide? That is the problem of the government entities involved and the firefighters should never have been put in the position to even be worried about that.

As an aside, yes maybe Crannick is a jerk and cheap but to equate that to he deserves to have his house burn down and his pets killed is ridiculous. As the OP writer said, to paraphrase, 'you help your neighbor and then worry about the money.

[MsPithy]

64. It is not about the money!

The family offered to pay whatever it would cost, like the couple in MadHound's OP. It is all about the sick libertarian, "I got mine, so screw you!" every man for himself, mentality of Republicans, conservatives and teabaggers.

Thank you, thank you, MadHound for taking the time to write this beautiful post. I can't tell you how discouraging and downright frightening this story from Tennessee and the ensuing comments have been for me. Thanks for restoring some of my faith in humanity.

[struggle4progress]

74. The family apparently still hasn't paid the bill from the last time the city fire department

drove outside the city limits to save their asses, even though they were not subscribers

And, of course, you know perfectly well that a contract executed under duress is null: so an offer made to pay while the house is burning is unenforceable as a contract

It's not about the money you say. Well, the city fire department has to have functional engines and pumps and hoses and protective equipment ready-to-use when the fires occur, and unfortunately under our economic system nobody gives the fire department this stuff for free: it has to be purchased, using a finite budget. Unless you are personally providing those funds, I'm not impressed when you bitch that the city fire department is using its equipment within its financial limitations

[EFerrari]

76. The International Association of Fire Fighters "bitched", too:

International Association of Fire Fighters General President Harold Schaitberger issued a statement Tuesday regarding the fire.

“The decision by the South Fulton Fire Department to allow a family’s home to burn to the ground was incredibly irresponsible. This tragic loss of property was completely avoidable. Because of South Fulton’s pay-to-play policy, fire fighters were ordered to stand and watch a family lose its home. Everyone deserves fire protection because providing public safety is among a municipality’s highest priorities."

“Instead, South Fulton wants to charge citizens outside the city for fire protection. We condemn South Fulton’s ill-advised, unsafe policy. Professional, career fire fighters shouldn’t be forced to check a list before running out the door to see which homeowners have paid up. They get in their trucks and go.”

http://www.myeyewitnessnews.com/news/local/story/Firefighters-Let-Home-Burn-Owner-Didnt-Pay-Fire/w9Bg1HxTrkmRg2pxSyw9Ag.cspx?rss=59

[MsPithy]

79. We are talking about an unpaid bill of $75 freaking

dollars! Not really enough to pay for the fire engine, now is it?

Could you provide the link that proves the family had other bills that were not paid?

[IdaBriggs]

138. They hadn't paid since 1990, including a previous response

(which would have cost them $500).

$75 x 20 years + $500 = $2,000 - a reasonable contribution to a county wide benefit over the course of 20 years.

But the folks in question "saved" $75 a year - woo hoo for them. Sigh....

[MsPithy]

144. Again, can you provide the link,

that proves the family didn't pay? Sounds like the kind of "fact" that flies around the right wing sites. And, the family offered to pay the whole cost. I'll say again, this is not about the money, it is about authoritarians teaching "them" a lesson.

I think this issue has gotten so much attention because it draws a sharp distinction between two different types of people. People who recognize that America is a community of humans who care about each other, that it makes us stronger when we act in a way that helps our neighbors. Basically these are people like MadHound and liberal/progressive Democrats in general. I think we could all agree that Jesus was this kind of person.

The other kind of people say, "See, they didn't pay the $75. and THEY GOT WHAT THEY DESERVE!" First, in what universe does losing you house, all your possessions and letting your pets die by being burned alive, sound like a reasonable punishment for not paying $75.? You are on the side of authoritarian republicans who say "Every man for himself," and "I've got mine, so screw you!" If you think you want to live in this kind of world, read some Charles Dickens or take your next vacation in Somalia. And by the way, do you think Jesus would have said, "Let it burn!"

[IdaBriggs]

187. Here is one link:

http://www.wistv.com/Global/story.asp?S=13283472

This is why I think/thought they hadn't paid since 1990 (although a closer reading says it might be the policy - its kind of confusing):

"South Fulton City manager Jeff Vowell confirmed the Cranicks had not paid the fee, which has been the department's policy since 1990. Cranick said her failure to pay was an oversight."

You can also read this and some of the other articles (via Google) where the family who lost their home still doesn't want to be "forced" to pay taxes (but wants an apology for what happened).

[Jokerman]

39. "run towards danger when everybody else is running away"

Damn right!

That's one of the many reasons I have so much respect for first responders.

[1monster]

44. Amen! Grew up with a volunteer fire company. Every community had a volunteer fire company

where I grew up. The fire fighers were a family and they showed up to fight the fires no matter what the situation. I remember a night in Januay when the thermometer was in below zero territory and the fire siren went off in town and the phone calls, CB radios, police scanners, and phones all broadcast a fire.

My father was on the roof fighting that fire that night and was in the hospital by morning when the fire was finally out. He was suffering from hypothermia with a temperature of 93 degrees. He wasn't the only one who required medical attention. But every last one of those firemen would go to the next fire and the next one to save lives and home. All the companies would stand by for the company fighting the fire, in case there was another one at the same time. And all of the companies would respond if a fire was so bad that one or two companies could not put it out on their own.

None of them got any pay and any money they raised went into the infrastrucsure, maintenance, and overhead, i.e., electricity, etc., of the fire company.

Being a fire fighter is a way of life -- a community service based life.

[Hannah Bell]

48. obion county, however, has *no* volunteer fire dept.

[1monster]

60. And that excuses it? No way, no how. And the argument that there was no law

allowing the fire company to sue to collect payment for services rendered holds no water (pun not intended) either because, unless it was left out of the article, there is no law disallowing it either. Ergo, it would be up to the judge and/or jury.

The fire company my family belonged to received some grant moneys from the (very small) city, but mostly raised funds themselves. That company started as a community volunteer (no public funds) effort and was well over 100 years old when I left there thirty-six years ago. Any and everyone of those fire fighters and all the others I knew from other companies would have been absolutley appalled by the attitude shown by the city officials who ordered the firemen to let the house burn.

I know well that it costs money to run a fire department, volunteer or no, but there is no excuse to allow a fellow beings domicile to burn down for lack of a $75 payment. And the home owners agreed to pay whatever costs that ensued from the fire department responding and putting out the fire. That is a verbal contract and would have held up in court had the fire department fought the fire and then the homeowner tried to wiggle out of payment.

Ms. Bell, I've read a lot of your postings and I'm glad I don't live in a world of your designing.

[Hannah Bell]

90. a world of my designing wouldn't have user fees. this is not a world, or situation, or my designing

but i don't believe in bankrupting public institutions in order to show "compassion" to people/groups who've repeatedly shown themselves to be anti-social & unwilling to contribute to the common good even though they have adequate means to do so.

democracy is not a suicide pact.

this situation has been going on for decades. it's easy for you to say "go to court, verbal contract, blah blah". do you think the people involved haven't considered the obvious things you bring up? And in case you weren't aware, most of the city's firefighters *are* volunteers. There is a station, call system, vehicles & equipment to maintain & state & federal mandates that *cost money.* And federal funding has been *cut*.

i'm tired of this emotionally-based bs. "firefighters are this, firefighters are that, these people aren't true firefighters..."

firefighters aren't saints, they're people like everyone else & they display the same range of attitudes and behaviors. i can go to the firefighters' forum & find the same range of opinions on this topic i find at DU. You don't speak for all firefighters, & yours is just one opinion out of many.

The city has no responsibility for fire protection outside the city limits, except to those people who've contracted for it.

The city is not required even to offer the service outside the city at all.

It's unfortunate it's come to this, but it's the county's idiotic, adamant anti-tax attitude that's the root cause -- *this* is the policy they decided on after *two years* of negotiation with the providers, who'd been providing basically free service for decades.

A certain poster keeps talking about the "mutual aid agreement".

There is no mutuality, there is no "mutual aid," the county provides *nothing* and is a parasite on publicly funded goods.

[MaryKelly]

104. Even in this world

None of the arguments you cite justify letting a person's home burn down. Period. Even if they're birthers or they didn't pay or if they didn't pay when they could afford it or if they get farm subsidies or if they're spongeing or if the county should do it or because there's "no mutuality" or they're outside city limits and the tax policy should be different. No one deserves to have their home burn to the ground for any of the reasons you cite when firefighters could have put it out.

Coincidentally, I just got my fire tax bill. Whether I'll ever need the service is immaterial to my decision to pay it, like I always do. I feel a responsibility to pay it. So do most people. Even if we all realize at the same time that we'll get the service without paying for it, most of us will continue to pay it. And for those few who don't, I--and apparently most people--still want their fires put out.

My thanks to the OP--your story was like a balm after some of the comments here. Also, in deference to the OP and firefighters in general, according to Gene Cranick in Keith Olbermann's follow-up, many of the firefighters themselves were distraught. Common decency is good for communities too.

[Hannah Bell]

105. thanks for registering just to tell me that, mary.

but sorry, in this county history shows that "most people" have not paid. even when billed for fire service, most people didn't pay the bill.

[MaryKelly]

106. You're welcome

But I've been registered since 2008 actually, as if that has something to do with anything.

So you're saying most people didn't pay the bill (link?), yet somehow there's still a fire department, not bankrupt. There goes your argument.

[Hannah Bell]

107. that's why they now charge subscriptions for county residents, mary.

$250K for a fire engine, $600K for a pumper truck, mary.

[MaryKelly]

108. That continues to be an insufficient reason for letting homes burn down, Hannah

[Hannah Bell]

110. what is your solution, mary?

the city fire department has no legal obligation to put out the county's fires, mary.

[Hannah Bell]

111. still waiting, mary.

[MaryKelly]

113. Still waiting? Ok

Like the OP said, put out the fire and worry about the $75 later.

[Hannah Bell]

116. that was the former policy, mary. more than half the people never paid.

[MaryKelly]

112. We're talking about a moral obligation, Hannah

[Hannah Bell]

118. moral obligations don't pay the bills. even volunteer fire depts cost serious bucks.

i'm just asking all you moral giants how to pay the bills when the county won't tax itself.

and the city has only 2,500 people.

[MaryKelly]

119. Once again

These are insufficient reasons to let people's homes burn. The people who pay will always pick up the slack. We do it with people who need emergency room care, help feeding their families, help keeping the lights on. Some people "scam" the system to get out of a $75 fee, some people get "extra" food stamps, some people don't pay when they can and should, and the rest of us pick up the slack. And I'm fine with that. I'm fine with helping a neighbor stay in his or her home even if they took out a stupid mortgage or didn't pay their fire tax. I'd rather pay for that than Lloyd Blankfein's "God's work," but not even he deserves to have his house burn down.

[Hannah Bell]

145. i didn't ask for another lecture on morality. i asked how to pay for the fire dept, since

75% of its calls come from the county & there are less than 2500 people paying taxes.

[MaryKelly]

149. Well maybe you need one-this isn't the stuff of 'moral giants,' it's Human Being 101.

And you've already undone your other arguments. There's a still a fire department, they're not bankrupt, they have access to water--put out the fire.

[Hannah Bell]

150. lol. another lecture on mortality. you guys are beings of light.

the water was provided by the fire dept. in a pumper truck that now costs $600K.

because there aren't fire hydrants or "city water" in rural areas.

they're not bankrupt because they stopped fighting fires for people who won't pay, even though they have the means.

[MadHound]

153. And it seems that you are bent on seeing people punished because of their beliefs

You seem to think that somebody with a libertarian POV needs to get their comeuppance, and you take great joy in it when they do. That's rather, well, disturbing. Where is your humanity?

Let me ask you this, what if the house didn't did belong to the Craniks', what if it belonged to some old couple who were just barely scraping by on SS and Medicare, what if they simply couldn't afford to pay the subscription fee, would you be just as indignant, just as insistent that the fire department did the right thing and let their house burn down to the ground?

[Hannah Bell]

154. no, i don't give a damn about their beliefs if they fund the fd. if they don't like public services

& don't want to fund them, then why should they expect them to be there when they need them?

it's insane.


from the comments to the fire union's editorial:


Submitted by simpleguy68 on Wed, 10/06/2010 - 2:33pm.

"Where is the IAFF when so many volunteer departments are struggling to raise funds just to keep responding?"

I'll give you the short answer: Not unlike the town that doesn't respond to the homeowner that doesn't pay his dues to the town - the IAFF doesn't respond to fire fighters that don't pay their dues to the IAFF.

Not a jab... but a simple fact.

[MaryKelly]

156. From IAFF General President Harold Schaightberger

Fire Fighters Condemn South Fulton’s
Decision to Let Home Burn

Washington, DC – International Association of Fire Fighters General President Harold Schaitberger
today issued the following statement on the September 29 fire in Obion County, Tennessee:

“The decision by the South Fulton Fire Department to allow a family’s home to burn to the ground was
incredibly irresponsible. This tragic loss of property was completely avoidable. Because of South
Fulton’s pay-to-play policy, fire fighters were ordered to stand and watch a family lose its home.
“Everyone deserves fire protection because providing public safety is among a municipality’s highest
priorities.
“Instead, South Fulton wants to charge citizens outside the city for fire protection. We condemn South
Fulton’s ill-advised, unsafe policy. Professional, career fire fighters shouldn’t be forced to check a list
before running out the door to see which homeowners have paid up. They get in their trucks and go.”
The International Association of Fire Fighters, headquartered in Washington, DC, represents more than 298,000
full-time professional fire fighters and paramedics and is the leading advocate for health and safety of first
responders in North America. More information is available at www.iaff.org
###

[Hannah Bell]

169. some responses from firefighters who understand the politics involved to iaff's statement:

Submitted by dtallmanpa on Thu, 10/07/2010 - 1:04pm.

I empathize with comments on here - both directions. First, I work for a career dept and 100% loyal to the IAFF. And, my career began in the Volunteers. I still work and serve with Volunteers. This case illustrates the problems with our economies across the nation; instead of the focus being on the failure of the county/city etc. to provice protection for it's citizens the anger is being directed a the very people who are sacrificing their lives and time to provide the service.

It takes money to run a volunteer FD just as a career dept. The problem is nobody wants to pay in either case until the flames are under their butts. Then they begin finger pointing. Subscription service is the founding history of the fire service - but, it too went away because truly, can $50 or $100 or what's the real amount the really pays for the service? Communities need to incorporate fire service in their tax base so all citizens receive the same level of service and I'm certain that's what the IAFF President is saying. Best to all of you!


Submitted by vollie7300 on Thu, 10/07/2010 - 11:28am.

Several factors must be considered. First, how long has the property owner chosen not to pay the subscription fee? One year, two? Second, how many people are in the subscriber base? A thousand, ten thousand? How else might the FD successfully generate revenue? If the FD responds to an event for a non-subscriber, what allows the FD to think some insurance company would pay for the response?

My Vol. FD relys on subsriptions to remain viable. Our only other source of revenue are fundraisers. These are difficult because not all FF's choose to participate. We have received grant money in the past but this all too infrequent. We have four vehicles and a fire house that can only hold three. Our brush truck is in a barn about 3/4 mile away. There are 278 properties from whom we can solicit a subscription fee of $50 - six of these chose not to pay last year and probably will not pay this coming year. Just at 10% of the homes in our community are for sale. What might be the number who opt out of paying this next year?

There is no guarantee that an insurance company will pay us to fight a fire (or show up for a medical event) at some non-subscriber's property. We have a bank loan for our tanker and pumper and our insurance went up nearly 10% this year. Our FD has made every attempt to educate our subscribers that their fee is a very important ingredient in the grand overall plan. They, hopefully, understand - if you do not subscribe for services than you cannot expect to receive services.


Submitted by Sam D. Fahrman on Thu, 10/07/2010 - 9:11am.

Does the IAFF extend it's benefits and union privleges to firefighters who don't pay dues to the IAFF? Just wondering...


Submitted by hazfire12 on Thu, 10/07/2010 - 12:19am.

Everyone needs to give this department and these firefighters a break. Until confronted with the exact same situation, which none of you know the full extent of, you don't know what you would do. At first I was quick to pass judgement and say that I would never let that happen. If the fire service hadn't become so expensive to operate and function, none of this never would have happened.

I blame the current standards we have to operate by and the fire service equipment industry. Why does a part for a fire apparatus cost four times as much as the same part for a commercial truck? I wish I didn't have to pay my automobile or home insurance until I had an accident or a fire, this situation is no different. If no one had to pay for their fire protection subscription until they actually had a fire, this department probably could not have the equipment they need to respond anyway. I'm sure any department in the world would have responded had there been a life in danger, as it is there wasn't. Just my thoughts, don't be so quick to judge.


Submitted by Raz on Wed, 10/06/2010 - 8:30pm.

While I am sure the Firefighters and the Chief would have like to put out the fire there are potential liability if they did. This department had a legal obligation to respond to calls within their jurisdiction, if they were fighting this fire and were unable to respond to a call in their jurisdiction they could be held responsible for the losses of a home or a fatality.

As far as billing for the cost of fighting the fire good luck. We responded to a structure fire in an unincorporated area of our county (with no hydrants), the house was valued at over a million dollars. In addition to our department three other departments assisted with Tenders. We saved over three quarters of the home and contents.

When a bill was given to the home owner he refused to pay saying it was the insurance company's responsibility. The insurance company refused to pay since we had no legal obligation to respond. We put our members at risk and decreased the level of response available to the citizens in our community. We have since shifted to a response for life safety not suppression. Keep in mind if everyone had this attitude there would be no departments to respond.


Submitted by rbh125 on Wed, 10/06/2010 - 8:29pm.

While I do not necessarily agree with the decision, that is apparently the policy and in far more than only one jurisdiction as I understand it...

The bigger question for me is this, who cares what the IAFF has to say. That organization is no better than other media mongers who only spout when they see a camera or a spot light. This situation is unfortuante for the homeowners and their pets but the fact remains, if you live in a neighbor with an HOA, you know you have to pay your dues and if you live in an area with a fire fee, you pay your fee.


Submitted by jtilbe on Wed, 10/06/2010 - 7:19pm.

This is a very sad situation for the family and for the firefighters who had to stand by and watch this house burn. I suspect that it did not go down well with them.

However, there is a theme at work here that is being played in other places in a slightly different way. The man lived in unincorporated territory. He did not want to pay taxes to the city or town. He did not want to pay the $75 fee for fire protection. BUT he still expected services. Where have we heard this before? From the angry mob demanding lower taxes, but who still expect first class fire protection, superb EMS and 24/7 police patrols. They also want the best schools for their children and roads that have no potholes and are plowed the minute a snow flake falls.

You can't get something for nothing.


Submitted by justincfd on Wed, 10/06/2010 - 6:39pm.

I wish people would read the WHOLE story before spouting their mouths... these individuals WERE insured, this incident occured OUTSIDE the FD's normal response district which they provide their service (for a SMALL fee,) the homeowner did NOT pay the fee (which they were WELL aware of and had paid in the past) and the FD arrived to protect a property that HAD paid the small fee to protect their property.

Now, I am a full-time career fireman and have been for almost 10 years - I would HATE to have to put into this situation (probably as much as the FF's that had to watch this property burn.) The big picture in MY eyes is that if these FFs WOULD have began fire supression operations on this house - they would have faced a punishment which may have been "up to and including termination."

ALSO, what would have happened if one of these FFs had gotten injured or God forbid died while fighting this fire? I'm sure the city would not cover the insurance bills and it would NOT be considered a LODD by our great International... who would take care of THEIR families? Remember Brothers - we need to remember our families at home!


Submitted by JonPearl on Wed, 10/06/2010 - 6:20pm.

Submitted by simpleguy68 on Wed, 10/06/2010 - 2:33pm. "Where is the IAFF when so many volunteer departments are struggling to raise funds just to keep responding?"

I'll give you the short answer: Not unlike the town that doesn't respond to the homeowner that doesn't pay his dues to the town - the IAFF doesn't respond to fire fighters that don't pay their dues to the IAFF.

Not a jab... but a simple fact.

etc.

http://www.firehouse.com/news/top-headlines/iaff-condemns-tenn-depts-decision-not-fight-fire?page=3



btw, the iaff apparently doesn't understand that the unincorporated county isn't part of the municipality of south fulton & doesn't pay taxes to it or fund its fire dept:

“Everyone deserves fire protection because providing public safety is among a municipality’s highest
priorities."


another org spouting off without fact-checking.

[MaryKelly]

178. Yeah, once you enlightened him that it's not part of the municipality I'm sure

he'd take it all back and say they should have let it burn. Way to miss the larger point (which you can't speak to) that people of conscience don't let people's homes burn down, no matter where they live, or if they paid their fee, or if they're rich farming government hating libertarians.

[MadHound]

157. So, if it was an older, poorer couple that were struggling with the choice between food and medicine

Who simply couldn't afford the subscription fee, you would still be in the fire department's corner for letting the house burn?

[Hannah Bell]

173. That's why we tax by property value & income to fund universal public services instead of

letting individuals decide whether or not to pay a flat fee -- like the county does.

You don't seem to get it.

[MadHound]

185. This is what I get,

A fire department refused to fight a fire, watched it burn to the ground. It doesn't matter what the residents of that county did or did not do. It doesn't matter how the monetary arrangements were, or were not handled. That fire department watched a family's house burn down and did not lift a finger.

That is akin to a doctor watching a person die of a heart attack at a ball game and doing nothing because it was her day off. That is akin to a soldier abandoning his post or a cop refusing to stop a crime because he was off duty. Firefighter's take oaths and though they vary from one district to another, each one that I heard, read or taken talks about helping all who are in need, courage in face of danger, and to run towards that danger when others are running away.

I don't know a single firefighter, those that I served with and those that I met before and after serving, who wouldn't have disobeyed any order to stand down because of monetary reasons, none. Standing down, watching a house burn, doing nothing, that's simply not something a firefighter, or as far as I'm concerned, a humane person would do.

Do you get that?

[MaryKelly]

186. Well said and thank you

There are no circumstances that justify letting a person's home burn down. Not an outstanding bill, not proximity to city limits, not presumed political views or being the beneficiary of farm subsidies or whatever the latest ridiculous attack is.

Still none.

[MadHound]

160. So, are you going to answer the question I posed in post 157 above?

I really would like to have an answer to that one.

[MadHound]

164. Well, your silence on the question is an answer all its own,

An answer that isn't terribly flattering towards you.

[Hannah Bell]

174. look, i don't sit by the computer waiting to hear from you. & i'm under no obligation to answer

questions phrased in the form of personal attack.

i answered your question when i read it.

your whole schtick is ignoring the responsibility of the county & its residents to fund fire protection & dumping on the publicly-funded fire dept.

[MaryKelly]

155. From what I've read this is the only the second time they've withheld services

--twice was all it took to keep them from bankruptcy? Really? The fact is, even though it troubles you, the morality of this IS the point, Hannah, it's not beside the point. Accordingly, STILL nothing you've said justifies letting homes burns down, not even in some petty bureaucrat's rule adherence wet dream. Cities and towns all over the country have somehow managed to come up with better solutions than 'let it burn,' so the suggestion that the options are let it burn or go bankrupt is preposterous.

[Hannah Bell]

158. you didn't even understand the jurisdiction issue, so i seriously doubt you read anything like that.

and no cities in obion county have come up with "better solutions".

there is no "better solution" when county residents don't want to pay for fire service, even though they are better-heeled & more numerous than the city residents.

[MaryKelly]

159. Doubt whatever you like. Here's a link:

http://www.nwtntoday.com/news.php?viewStory=46801

Speaking of which, I'd like to see the links to all the data you cite as well.

And yes, there is a better solution: Put the fire out. You and South Fulton are on the wrong side of this and no bureaucratic argument changes that.

[Hannah Bell]

172. please point out the part that says "this is only the second time they've withheld services"

The fire that sparked the controversy apparently broke out about 2:30 p.m. Wednesday at Gene Cranick’s property on Buddy Jones Road, located outside the city limits of South Fulton.

Vowell explained that the property owner was not a paying member of the rural fire subscription service offered to county residents by the City of South Fulton. He said as per city policy, established by city ordinance, the call was declined and the city’s fire department could not respond.

“I have no problem with the way any of my people handled the situation. They did what they were supposed to do,” he said. “It’s a regrettable situation any time something like this happens.”
He said the South Fulton Fire Department did respond to a request to protect the property of the adjacent property owner, who is a member of the rural fire subscription service.

Vowell said county residents do not have guaranteed fire service since there is no countywide fire department to cover rural areas, but many municipalities offer rural fire coverage to residents in specified coverage areas for a nominal annual fee. South Fulton’s fee is $75.

However, Vowell said residents in those rural areas cannot be forced to pay the fee and it’s their decision whether to accept the coverage.

“We are a city fire department. We are responsible for the City of South Fulton and we offer a subscription (to rural residents). If they choose not to, we can’t make them,” he said.

He said Obion County government has been thoroughly studying rural fire protection and “has looked at it 100 different ways,” with details of a proposal still being worked out. Ironically, the matter began to be discussed seriously just over two years ago following a similar situation where South Fulton firefighters could not respond to a rural call.

[MaryKelly]

176. Please show me where it says it's more

You're right, Hannah--I took the fact that they just started to discuss it seriously two years ago "following a similar situation" and the collective stunned horror at this particular incident to suggest two instances. If you have evidence to the contrary, I'd like to see it. In fact, I'm still waiting to see any links from you supporting any of the numerous pronouncements you've made--the number of times they've refused non-subscribers, how that rescued their bottom line, the data showing more than half don't pay, etc., etc. None of which would change the fact that as a moral and human issue you don't let houses burn down if you can prevent it, but I'd like to see for myself where you're getting your information.

[Hannah Bell]

177. i made no claim on this point. you did. i asked you to support your claim.

you can't.

i wrote a whole op with links, maybe you should find it.

i don't help ill-tempered people whose first response to disagreement is personal attack & name-calling.

byee.

[MaryKelly]

179. I did and I'm asking you to support yours

I won't speculate whether you can't or won't, I'll just point out (again) that you still haven't.

[Hannah Bell]

180. no, mary, the link you gave me doesn't say what you claimed. now go look for my op if you're

interested.

which i doubt you are.

& i'm no longer interested in any discussion with you.

[MaryKelly]

181. Interesting edit

You obviously can't back up your claims. I get it. No need for your dishonesty and obfuscation. Be well, Hannah.

[MadHound]

129. There are legal remedies for collecting unpaid money

But the moral obligations of the firefighters, quite frankly, overrides all other concerns.

What it looks to me is that you are more concerned that libertarians getting the comeuppance so to speak, than you are about doing what is right, moral and just. Well sorry, but that's not the answer, and that kind of stance only leads to you becoming just as bad as that which you hate.

[Hannah Bell]

146. again with the moral lectures. skip it, i can get it at church.

[MsPithy]

183. So morals are for "at church," only?

Do you think about what you are writing when you write it? I thought the whole point of religion was to take what we learn in church out into our daily lives. If you think the punishment for not paying $75, should be losing one's house, all belongings and having one's pets burn to death, then you need to spend a lot more time at your church, missy!

[Hannah Bell]

184. ooh, another person who signed in to give me a piece of their mind.

morality has nothing to do with windy blathering & little sob stories about puppies and kitties.

and the sermons from some of the posters here are worth about as much as those i can get at the local church in terms of dealing with brass tacks.

which is to say, nothing.

i understand:

city taxpayers should fund fire service for county teabaggers who make more money than city residents, but are too anti-tax to fund their own fire service.

that's your morality.

whatever, dude. or dudette.

[droidamus2]

120. Wait a minute

'provide the service for free for decades'? So the city provided the service for 'decades' and didn't go bankrupt. Isn't that surprising. Is the situation screwed up, yes. Are the government agencies and powers that be idiots for not coming to a better solution absolutely. Are the 'agencies or people' in the county (still not clear on what people mean when they say 'county', was there a vote? Was it just a few country officials?) idiots for not securing a better way to pay for fire protection, yes. All that aside, and I guess we will just have to agree to disagree, it is never, ever right to just let somebodies house burn, especially when you are the only one with the capability to put it out. If I heard correctly the family tried to use garden hoses to put out the fire but they weren't enough.

[Hannah Bell]

148. no, it's not surprising, given population growth, movement outside the city, & increased costs,

partly due to increased federal & state mandates.

since you're not clear on what people mean when they say the *county* i suspect you don't understand the situation.

the city of 2500 people funds the fire dept by assessing taxes on city residents.

the unincorporated county of 15000 people doesn't pay those taxes, but 75% of fire calls come from the county.

the county has repeatedly refused to tax itself & pay the city for fire service, or fund its own volunteer fire dept.

[droidamus2]

166. Further explanation?

Where I am confused about the term 'county' is this. When you say the 15000+ people don't pay the taxes, did those 15000+ vote on some kind of referendum to not have fire service and not pay a tax to cover the towns costs or was it their elected representatives that refused to negotiate in good faith with the city? Same result but in the case of a vote many people may have voted to pay the taxes and they still get included in the pay to play idea.

I still say it is two separate ideas. First, you put out the fire whether the fee was paid or not period. Second, the city and especially the county have a duty to negotiate a contract that is acceptable to both sides and assures all county residents have fire coverage and the appropriate amount of money is provided to the city from the county. Doing it that guarantees universal coverage because again the firefighters should not have their hands tied by the politics of the situation their job is to put out fires.

[Hannah Bell]

182. obion county, tn = a bit over 32,000 people. about 18K of them live inside 8 incorporated towns.

the rest live in the unincorporated county. "in the country" if you will.

the towns have fire depts which are paid for by the residents' city taxes. the average size of these towns is about 2000 people.

these towns have historically provided fire service to county residents -- basically for free. they would bill for fires after the fact & more than half of county residents served didn't pay.

the unincorporated county has no fire dept, no residential fire service at all, and has repeatedly decline to either fund its own volunteer fire service or assess a tax on all its residents to pay the towns.

even though the unincorporated county has a higher median income than any of the towns.

adjoining counties spend an average of $288K/year for fire protection.

obion county spends $12,000. it's two federal grants of $6000 each that fight grassfires & carfires in a "limited area" of the county.

there is no residential fire service in the county whatsoever except that provided by the towns.

[droidamus2]

189. I understand all that

I understand the financial situation what I am trying to get you to explain is when you say 'the county chose' (either way the choice was probably made through the election process) was it a decision made strictly by county elected officials or was there some kind of election process where the citizens of the unincorporated county voted as to whether they would rather set up their own fire departments or pay a fee. At this point not questioning in any way the financial situation just curious as to how things got to where they are at.

[TorchTheWitch]

57. that's how it is in all the communities around here

I thought that all non-cities had volunteer services paid with local taxes and donations until recently when I found out about this ghastly 19th century subscription racket.

Every year the local department sends out donation request letters to the residents and commercial properties, and people DO donate. Though I'm a renter and it's my landlord's responsibility to pay the fire protection through her taxes since she owns the propery I still like to donate a little something every year. This year I just didn't have a dime to send since I'm in bad financial circumstances right now. If my community had a subscription service I wouldn't have been able to pay the fee and would need to worry about my house burning down with everything I own and my dog who to me is like my son or worry whether or not my landlord was paying the fee.

This subscription service shit is an abomination and not something that any community should be ABLE to vote on anymore than voting on whether or not to have a police service or road/water/gasline service or any other of the VITAL community services that effect far more people than the one person in a family or commercial property responsible for paying the fee.

[txaslftist]

51. Amen brother.

I don't know what kind of a jackass fireman doesn't take a fire call.

[pasto76]

52. Mountain Rescue is always free of charge, thank god for that tradition

the notion of charging is absurd, and precludes any similar situation as this headline from TN. It allows us to do what you said we should all do- use our training and skill set to help people, In a decade of volunteer rescue, I never once had to think about someone paying for anything I did.

[PVnRT]

55. "libertarian attitude of many people here"

When your only recourse is to just keep repeating strawmen like this, you have no argument.

Fuck it. It's time to start using the Ignore button again.

[MadHound]

62. Yes, given the responses to this situation,

I would say that there are a number of people with libertarian attitudes around here. As far as repeating that "strawman" as you put it, I mentioned it just once in this thread, at least before this post. And frankly, if you think that is my only argument on this subject, well, perhaps you need to reread my OP.

But hey, if you want to put me on ignore, fine, no skin off my nose. It's you who has to deal with living in your own little bubble, with your own little self.

[nadinbrzezinski]

59. I only have ONE exception to that rule of running

towards the fire when everybody else is running away.

It is unique to places like Mexico, or believe or not, Italy...

Liquid Gas Tanks are a common feature in homes, and the gas is used for cooking and other things... When those things get way too hot and you cannot cool them down they WILL go off spectacularly.

I've seen firefighters drop hose and RUN... mostly so they can go back to work after the explosion to try to save OTHER property. And usually it is done when it is ALMOST too late, or for some reason the pumper died or the tank ran out of water.

And trust me... you RUN in those cases.

And yes, there is nothing like approaching a fire scene with fireballs shooting up to the sky... it is something that I fear ONLY those in emergency services get.

Oh and working on old engines... your memories are about engines... mine is about completely rewiring an old Ford Van we converted into an ambulance... running a whole new electric harness to support all the crap an ambulance needs. Took two years to be honest... best rig I ever rode on, well except the 1957 hearse\ambulance. That thing was a SWEET ride. But not so much as a modern critical care ambulance.

[MadHound]

61. It's not that uncommon in the US either

The proliferation of those small propane tanks has made going into garages, trailers, etc. dangerous as well. Saw one of those take out the entire front end of a double wide once, pretty damn spectacular.

Yeah, there are things that first responders see and experience that nobody outside of the field can really comprehend. I was once battling a forest fire, deep in the woods, trying to establish a firebreak so that we could then set a back fire. A wind came up, and the whole thing went to hell. I never will forget running for my life, along with my buddies, as fire leapt from treetop to treetop overhead, with fire, sparks and embers raining down on us.

Then there are the more mundane, yet funny things. Like the old codger who was on the board of the fire department. In his mind this made him king shit firefighter, so one fine, wet spring day when we got a call for a brush fire, he promptly ran across the road, hopped in one of the brush buggies and took off. We followed, saw him turn into a field adjacent to the fire and promptly buried the buggy up to the floorboards in the mud.

I love working on old engines and old cars. Just picked up an old Civil Defense PE-75 generator powered by a B&S engine, my winter project. What happened to that old hearse? I've always wanted one of those. I wouldn't mind rewiring an old Ford van, but I couldn't even begin to imagine the nightmare of modern ambulance wiring. My car skills are limited to anything from the late eighties on back. Modern computer driven vehicles simply frustrate me.

[nadinbrzezinski]

63. Told the boss to SELL that thing to a collector

that would have been good money... but NOOOO... he sold it for much less to another delegation in the interior for cheap.

And to the LG tanks... think about it this way. The one on my parent's property in Mexico City is the equivalent of what twenty of those small ones?

Yes, they are scary. There are larger tanks as well. And funny thing, they always scared me shitless.

The delivery trucks are down right scary...

oy...

And embers falling look VERY PRETTY in a very dark night. I know, sick.

[MadHound]

65. Sick, hell, that's mild firefighter humor,

Let's get a bunch of smoke eaters gathered around a burnt out car joking about crispy critters, now that's sick. But folks on the front line have to have a sense of humor to keep on going, no matter if it's a sick sense of humor.

That's one of my regrets, that I didn't go back down to my old unit and buy up their old vehicles when they were selling them in the '90's. But at the time I was living in my first house, a small one on a small lot in the city, and my wife certainly wouldn't have appreciated an old '55 LaFrance pumper taking up the front yard. One of her greatest joys in moving out to the country was the fact that we had a large outbuilding where I could park my fleet of old iron, out of her sight. Some people just don't appreciate the aesthetic of a '49 DeSoto Deluxe.:shrug:

Twenty times the size, damn, that would make one shit one's drawers.

[nadinbrzezinski]

69. It took efforts not to go into the crispy critter jokes

with the San Bruno fire on them threads... trust me....

I was at San Juanico, so I got flashbacks too.

They are mostly gone now.

Some of the fire rigs the Tijuana fire ran were also 50s era American LaFrance.... so I get it.

[MadHound]

71. From one old hoser to another, thanks for your service

:toast:

[nadinbrzezinski]

73. Thank you too,

but I got to pick up the pieces mostly... (and drag hose when needed)

[Booster]

66. In my mind, you're one Hell of a guy. I thank you.

[MadHound]

67. Thanks for the kind words,

But really I just look at it as doing my part for this country. I never was attracted to the military, so I figured that this was an alternative form of serving my country.

[provis99]

75. what the hell have you got against the military?

If you don't stand behind the troops, feel welcome to stand in front of them!

[MsPithy]

80. Are you kidding?

There are plenty of ways to be a hero. Running to fight fires in one's community, if his neighbors paid their subscription or not, like MadHound, is heroic in my book!

[MadHound]

84. Never said that I had anything against the military,

At least not against those in uniform. How our military is used, that's a different matter.

What I did say is that I wasn't attracted to the military as a way of serving my country.

Perhaps you should get that hair trigger problem looked at:shrug:

[BzaDem]

68. +1.

The attitudes of some here make me sick.

[MadHound]

70. Hey, thanks, seriously

We have our differences on a lot of things, but it's nice to see we agree on doing the right thing when push comes to shove. :toast:

[BzaDem]

72. Indeed. :)

[pacalo]

77. Beautifully said, Madhound.

You're a beautiful soul.

:hi:

[MissDeeds]

78. Thank you so much for sharing this with us, MadHound

I don't know which came first, the goosebumps or the tears. You and your fellow firefighters epitomize the very best in human nature and make us all proud. Thank you for your selfless service.

K&R

:patriot: :applause: :grouphug:

[elleng]

81. Thanks, and great story, told well.

[MsPithy]

82. I am very worried that this kind of thing

will become more popular. Low information voters who refuse even necessary tax increases (for fire equipment, for example) just because they're taxes, might force communities to this kind of subscription. (They are too stupid to realize that their tax increases if shared by everyone on a progressive scale would be less than the $75. subscription fee.)

There is no way that these essential services subscriptions won't end in some kind of spectacular tragedy. Some kids will be in the house that nobody knew about, the list could have an error and the wrong house will burn to the ground, the firefighters will be watching a house burn and the wind will change and the fire will be too big to put out and a whole neighborhood will be lost, a desperate homeowner could run back into the house to force the firefighters to act, there are about a million ways this wrong-headed policy could end in tragedy.

[Gamey]

87. Thankless rules!

[webDude]

88. Totally agree. There was a way around what they did.

[Swamp Rat]

89. Thank goodness for people like you!

:yourock:

[Bonobo]

94. Rec from a fellow volunteer fireman!

[rasputin1952]

95. As a Volunteer Firefighter on Shelter Island NY, our calls were

relatively few when it came to "Signal 13's", a house/structural fire; most of what we dealt with were grass fires and the like. We were all cross trained in our jobs and I was an S/R firefighter, heading out of a jumpseat in full bunker gear, (including the old Scott Air-Pak), dragging an 1.5 hose off a reel to keep doors open and have a lifeline to get out if necessary, until we could get some serious hose inside. I saved dogs, cats, and once cradled a baby in my arms as I ran like hell to get him out, (little guy didn't get burned. I did this because it was my service to my community. I agree w/you here, "If, as a firefighter, you are not running towards that danger, for whatever reason, and especially for monetary reasons, then you are a disgrace to the uniform, a disgrace to the profession and frankly you should be kicked out of the force for good..

I will add, that the "chief" of that FD needs to be stripped of his uniform, have it burned in the public square, then tarred, feathered and driven out on a rail.


ETA: We had the old "Plectrons" to notify us...no idea if they still exist...:)

[howard112211]

96. Nice story. However completely different from the current one in many significant areas.

Your story is about volunteering to help the poor without charge on an individual basis. The current is about widescale systematic exploitation of a public system by deadbeat rich who choose to reject any responsibility for society but expect that same society to be there for them in times of need.

In reality, when looking at the big picture, resources are always scarce and the question of how they are distributed is always there.
I would view the current story very differently if we were talking about a family that actually could not afford the fee.

[rasputin1952]

97. The man offered to pay the fee on the spot...

he was refused...that is despicable. He lost his house, two pets, while at least one cleanly pressed "firefighter" sat in a nice new truck. The only thing missing were marshmallows...Appalling.

[Hannah Bell]

103. he says he did. the firemen came out to put out the neighbor's fire, not to watch this guy;s

fire, so i fear you are indulging in hyperbole.

that firetruck, btw, costs $250K & was paid for by a town of 2500 people.

75% of the town's fire calls come from the county.

which doesn't pay.

[rasputin1952]

117. I lived on a 23 sq mile island, we had numerous trucks...

(mine was 1958 American-LaFrance 500gpm.)

We received our vehicles from various entities, (in one case we received a 5000 stainless steel tanker from the USAF, on "permanent loan".

I am not a hero, but when I came out of that house with that baby, all I could do was sit by a tree, take off my Scott Mask and cry...my fellow firefighters wept with me. You go into danger with a purpose...and often that purpose pays lifetime dividends...often, it pays with a life.

$75, in an errant bill is hyperbole.

[Hannah Bell]

152. did the folks from the surrounding islands expect you to row over & fight their fires for free?

because you're talking about a fd in one jurisdiction & this case is about 2 jurisdictions, only one of which has a fd -- & is smaller than the one that doesn't.

[rasputin1952]

161. Nope, it is a singular island between the two forks of Long Island.

The ferry did bring the Geenport FD over when a blaze got out of hand...and they did not charge them a fare.

[MadHound]

100. Wow, you know where I lived thirty years ago?

If you truly did know where I lived, then you would recognize that the district was a mixed bag, poor folks, middle class folks, vacation spots owned by fairly wealthy people, etc.

And frankly, when the flames are shooting to the sky and the shit is hitting the fan, you don't stop and ask a person's socioeconomic class, you run out the hose and start fighting the fire.

But as several people, neighbors, eye witnesses, etc., the owner of the house was willing to write a check on the spot, so was his neighbor. But the firefighters, they just sat and watched.

[aikoaiko]

114. I support the fire fighters who serve and protect in today's political and economic realities

Not the myths from days of yore.

[disillusioned73]

124. I see no "myth" in the op.,

actually you touch on one of the main points of it. Fire fighting & politics don't mix, and nor should they..... fire fighters were not involved in this unfortunate case, mercenaries is a better description.

[TBF]

126. "Myths from days of yore" are what we call history -

you'd be wise to read a bit.

Your attitude is so common amongst today's youth, and the reason we are ending up with the democratic party of today. No empathy or solidarity at all with your fellow man.

Personally I blame Reagan for this attitude.

[MadHound]

130. Are you saying that I'm lying?

When you call me out for propagating a myth, ie a lie, you had better have some damn fine evidence to back your happy ass up with.

You don't know me, you don't know my life, you just don't like what I have to say and are trying to denigrate it by calling it a myth. That's a bullshit tactic used by a weak intellect. So why should we even consider whatever weak shit you have to say as relevant or even valid?

[aikoaiko]

175. Sorry if I offended, but some firefighters have chosen to not respond to fires.

Not you per se.

Perhaps, I read too much into you post.

I do not think you lied.

Edited to add: After rereading my first post to your and thinking about it some more, I want to extend a sincere apology to you. It is true that I doubt all firefighters have been as brace and selfless as you and your colleagues were/are, but I shouldn't have written anything that made it sound as if what you wrote was untrue or denigrated.

[Blue Diadem]

121. It makes me wonder if anyone would be comfortable with city fire departments checking first to see

if someone was behind on their real estate taxes before fighting a fire.

I live in an area with a VFD. Our equipment is funded through taxes and grants but our guys/gals are the best for volunteering their time and risking their lives to save people and their homes.

Thanks for sharing your story Madhound and what a great story it is. Firefighters have a calling and I've never known one who hasn't done their duty.

I agree, a fire department that would stand and watch it burn isn't a fire department at all.

Oh, around here they were still using those fire phones in the late 90's. My daughter was married a volunteer firefighter and EMT for our township, turned deputy now and I remember her talking about the phone ring. They switched to a pager system sometime at the end of that decade.

[IdaBriggs]

123. From what I read, it wasn't the firefighter; it was the dispatcher.

Under the "what they don't know won't cost us money" philosophy, the firefighters weren't notified (otherwise I am confident they would have stepped up, as firefighters *ALWAYS* do).

And thank you for your service! :patriot:

[IdaBriggs]

137. ON EDIT: My mistake. Initially, they weren't called. Then they watched it burn.

How sad. And I have read since that the family who owned the home hadn't paid their fee since 1990 (saving a buck/looking out for themselves), were burning trash in violation of a banning burn, and STILL won't commit supporting the local fire departments!

You can't fix STUPID....

[TBF]

127. K&R nt

[PavePusher]

128. There is also a huge difference...

in "can't afford to pay" and "chose not to pay even though they could easily afford to".

And that is the difference between the two stories.

[MadHound]

131. But the point of the story isn't that difference,

The point of the story is that, no matter what, as a firefighter you have a moral obligation to put out the fire. Doesn't matter if they can't pay, or if they chose not to pay. You as a firefighter have a moral obligation to put that fire out, it is that simple.

[PavePusher]

162. I don't see it that way.

If you've been paid to assume the risk, and you accepted the salary,then yes.

Why should someone (a fireman) risk their life to save the property of a person who isn't upholding their end of a social debt/contract?

Where is this moral obligation to protect property? You sure can't find it in the Gungeon, where apparently it's wrong to defend property from thieves by use of violent means. Why should it be different here?

[MadHound]

163. Because we're not talking about the Gungeon, we're talking about real life here

And frankly it doesn't matter if you're being paid a salary or not, as a firefighter, the moral obligation remains the same. I wasn't paid, I fought fires that weren't part of our subscriber base, yet the moral imperative was still there. It's real simple, when you become a firefighter, you head towards the danger while others are running away.

If you don't get that, that's OK, I understand. But understand that is the underlying moral framework that every first responder operates from, and if they don't have that sort of moral framework, then they need to find another line of work.

[G_j]

135. bravo

:applause: :applause:
:applause: :applause:

[hamsterjill]

136. The right thing to do!

"No matter, at that point we just cared about putting out the fire."




You fought that fire because IT WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO!

Good grief. I cannot believe we are having any discussions otherwise here on DU. If you see a person in need, you do what you can to help that person. It's simple humanity.

[tpsbmam]

140. Too late to rec but thanks for posting & for your service!

I agree 100%. Wasn't aware of the liability issues but damn, have we gotten so pathetic that we let a person's house burn down (possibly at the loss of life) because we're afraid of getting sued if we don't? This society has gone so wrong it's heartbreaking. Glad to hear your experience to hear a voice of reason & compassion.

[Kajsa]

141. Thank you, MadHound!

Thank you for your service and
for posting this.
After reading posts by those who justify
the burning down of this house,
I am very grateful to read your OP.

You restore my faith in humanity.

:)

[disillusioned73]

142. Proud to kick....

:dem:

[TwilightGardener]

143. I rec'd yesterday, but just wanted to chime in with my thanks for you

and all who serve the public in times of need and danger. :patriot:

[20score]

165. That was great! Unfortunately, too late to rec.

Mind if I post this on FaceBook? With credit to you, of course.

[JPZenger]

167. k and r

I also blame the state for not giving the county the authority to levy a fee for a basic service. I understand the people of the unincorporated part of the county refused to approve the mandatory fee. It should be mandatory by law. In PA., the local governments can levy a specific real estate tax that goes directly to the fire services (including volunteer services), and that everyone has to pay.

[G_j]

168. k