If we have to blindly vote for Democrats what incentive do they have to change?

[no limit]

When it came time to do healthcare reform they sold us out to insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies.

When it came time to do the public option they sold us out to healthcare providers.

When it came time to do financial reform they sold us out to wall street by watering down all reforms.

When it came to fighting for repealing Don't Ask Don't Tell the democrats ran like hell as soon as the republicans uttered filibuster.

Gay marriage? Obama already told you he won't support that long before be was even elected.

Today we find out that when it came to the worst oil spill in our history what did they do? They sold us out to BP.

When it came to rendition, warrantless wiretapping, cap and trade, closing GITMO, probably torture, campaign finance reform, lobbyist reform, they sold us out on all that too.

When it comes to social security we already know they will sell us out on that as soon as the elections are over.

So my question is this. If I'm supposed to support them no matter what because they are still better than the other guys what possible incentive do they ever have to change? The answer clearly is that they have none. And why should I just accept that? I am not demanding the right to vote for only hard left liberals, all I want is the option to vote for actual Democrats.

I should clarify by "them" I mean the white house and the democratic leadership (especially in the senate).

[catbyte]

1. At this point in US history, I'm sorry, but the answer is yes

I'm as pissed off as the next Liberal/Progressive over the timidness and inaction of the Democrats in Washington, but the Republicans are so far beyond the pale that putting any of them in power just to "teach Democrats a lesson" is tantamount to treason. I'm terrified of what this country will become if the GOP gets another toehold. We're done for.

[kenny blankenship]

3. You didn't speak to the question

The question was what possible incentive do they ever have to change?

[no limit]

4. But I guess that means voting for Democrats will always mean voting for these kind of democrats

because they have absolutely no reason to change.

[sinkingfeeling]

2. Do whatever you want. Vote or sit at home.

[no limit]

5. Thanks for answering my question

[HereSince1628]

6. Contemplate your choices, cast an informed vote

that reflects your considered interests. I'm willing to trust you on that.

And, remember, you can always vote for a Democrat who shares your interests if you write in your own name.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[no limit]

10. Thank you too for answering my question. I guess you are happy with the status quo

[scheming daemons]

33. The status quo, while not ideal, is preferable to what a GOP-led government would bring

You have to make choices in life.

The choices aren't always between utopia and status quo.


Sometimes the choices are between good enough and horrible. This is one of those times.

[no limit]

43. Wait? You think this is good enough?

[Javaman]

73. Here is my opinion...

regarding the current state of things from an OP I posted a while ago...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8412571

Tue May-25-10
The enemy of the good is the perfect, right? That's fine, but what if the enemy of the merely okay is the good?

Have we fallen so far down the rabbit hole to mistake good for perfect? Has our own level of integrity been so influenced, so diluted; that now, what we demand of ourselves, of our elected officials, of our nation, which is so far from being even close to perfect; looked upon still as being perfect?

>snip<

We have to stop demanding only good and only receiving okay.

I want perfect, because I know in the end, I will get good.

Perfect is not the enemy, it's the level to which we must strive in order to get the good.

I'm so tired of acceptable. I'm so tired of the excuses. I'm so tired of the daily parade of crooks, liars and cheats. I'm so tired of "this is the best we can do" when the best is far from good, far from acceptable and far from "I can live with that".

We have not been dumbed down as a nation, we have been beaten down by a force far more powerful. We have been taught to accept things for what they are and not demand more of ourselves and from our politicians.

To me, that is the biggest crime.

[no limit]

75. Thanks for reposting that, I didn't see it before. I agree with it.

[MuseRider]

99. Very well said.

Thanks. Missed it before.

[Marr]

83. That's it-- right there.

I've long thought the self-described "centrists" are really just registered Democrats who have got theirs, and so wish everyone would just shut the fuck up and cheer for the team. For a whole lot of people, the status quo is not even close to "good enough", and asking them to simply vote *against* Republicans is absurd.

[RaleighNCDUer]

50. More like between worse and worser -

I'm still waiting for 'good enough'.

Will privatizing SS be 'good enough'? BOTH parties on planning on it.

Is insuring 30 million out of 55 million 'good enough'? Not if you're in that other 25 million.

Is 'saving' the economy 'good enough' when the men who stole our billions still walk free? Not in my mind.

If we tell the Democratic leadership that what they've done is 'good enough' why would they strive to do any better?

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DrDan]

8. would you please just turn around and bend over one more time?

oh yeah - you are to enjoy it

[no limit]

9. I am getting fucked already, wouldn't be that much different.

[VMI Dem]

11. I don't blindly vote for Democrats.

For the reasons you outline.

[HughBeaumont]

12. Right-of-Center Corporate Milquetoasts vs Batshit Insatanists.

Thanks for the big menu, 'murka.

Even if we wish for temporary American destruction to get voters to think more about who they vote for, the Greedbag Corporate Cancer, sadly, still remains and controls nearly everything. I don't really think anything's going to change until we physically demand change from the Greedbags.

In other words, make them fear us. Right now, they don't fear anything because they're getting everything they want.

[Scuba]

13. To win the next primary.

[no limit]

14. We tried that. We were called fucking retarded for it by the leaders in this party

[scheming daemons]

31. Yes... you lost in the primaries in some cases.... so here's what you do

You work harder next time... in the primaries.


In the general election is no time for a temper tantrum. Vote for the left-most candidate in EVERY election.


The DLC is to the left of the GOP. If the candidate in your district is DLC... then he/she is *STILL* to the left of their GOP opponent.


In *EVERY* race... be it primary or general... vote for the left-most candidate.



and if your candidate loses in the primary... suck it up and vote for the winner in the general. You aren't going to win every primary election. You have no right to expect that EVERY candidate you support will win the primary or you're taking your ball and going home.

[Scuba]

42. Bingo!

[no limit]

59. Yes, we lost. Why? Because not even the white house would throw support behing us

they chose to throw their support behind the people that obstructed them. And I'm supposed to support these democrats why?

[dionysus]

105. we get that you're not a democrat, and you want to see them lose. we really do.

[scheming daemons]

113. In every race, the White House supported a Democrat

The fact that not all Democrats agree with you seems to be the root of your problem.

[lumpy]

121. That is a lie. You know nothing.

BS

[no limit]

130. Exhibit A:

Are you familiar with the name Blanche Lincoln?

[Divernan]

15. If Dems lose the House, maybe Obama will get a clue about his veto powers.

And the surviving D house (and Senate) members will get a clue that Blue Dog is not the way to go, no matter how many special interest bribes they get from lobbyists for "Big" interests. No matter how big their war chests, they still have to con/delude/bribe/trick voters into going to the polls and voting against the voters' own best interests.

Have you noticed that the local true believers have gotten the word from the White House that they should soft pedal the name calling of progressives? Now they refer to us as "gullible, at best". After November 2nd, they can revert to the "retard" level of attack.

Nobody called us gullible or retarded when we gave greatly of our time and money, supporting Obama in the primary and national election.

We are witnessing nothing less than the corporate interests spreading their lethal tentacles into the Dem party to control it just as much as they control the GOP. The Supreme Court decision allowing anonymous foreign contributions has put us in a life and death struggle for the survival of the Democratic Party. The Blue Dogs are opportunistic turncoats.

And re the OP's list of sell-outs - now we find that as weak as O's "health reform" legislation is, now he's giving "waivers" to the health insurers so they don't even have to abide by the legislation. What a guy!

[alcibiades_mystery]

16. I find this post unhelpful at this time

All due respect to the poster.

[no limit]

18. See this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4566941#4567250

What do we do to change this shit? I'm not trying to argue, but this type of thing really pisses me off and I'm sick of being asked to support it.

[Name removed]

124. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[a la izquierda]

129. why is that the answer to everything?

Seriously, how the hell do i vote for a governor who: doesn't support gay rights, doesn't support the right of women to choose, but does support the right of everyone to own guns and the death penalty is a-okay with her. Please inform me, oh wise WhiteTara, how I vote for Jari Askins, the "D" candidate for governor of Oklahoma, who calls herself, in her commercials, an Oklahoma conservative. And I have to vote for that, or I should go hang out at FR? Give me just a small break, okay? I wrestle with this decision every single day. I've called my local Dem headquarters and told them, under no circumstances should they expect me to do a damned thing in support of her campaign (yet I'll work for all other local Democratic candidates, who actually STAND for Democratic values).

[AlinPA]

77. I do too.

[katandmoon]

17. K&R. They don't. But Obama has already kissed my last vote goodbye.

[scheming daemons]

34. So who will you vote for?

[Erose999]

95. Dennis Kucinich. Seriously. I favored Kucinich in the primaries before he dropped out and then I

supported John Edwards.

As a Kucinich supported Gibb's comments stung a little bit. Almost as much as being called a "fucking retard" by Rahmbo.

My next vote is going to go to someone who will at least have the respect for me not to openly insult me in front of the press.

Bring on the 2012 primary challengers, I say.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dionysus]

107. +1

[TreasonousBastard]

19. You don't vote for congressional leadership-- you vote for...

two Senators and one Representative. They vote for their leadership. If you don't like the leadership, you have a huge mountain to climb getting two Senators you like in there to work for new leadership.

And you are not the only one to vote for them-- roughly half a million voters are in each Congressional district and in California maybe 20 million choose the Senators. (Although that's who can vote-- only about half do vote.)

So, it comes down to just who are you to dictate how your representatives act? Is the Democrat better than the Republican? Is the state or district conservative enough so your personal favorite would go down in flames?

You do not decide-- you are just one of many voters who decide. And you definitely have nothing to say about MY representatives unless you live in my district. You can whine all you want about somebody else's Blue Dogs but they are somebody else's Blue Dogs and you have nothing to say about them.

So, yeah, keep voting Democratic in the national elections if only to avoid Jim DeMint getting even more power or the beautiful future under Speaker Boner.

[Bonobo]

20. Your question is too frightening and threatening to confront.

Do not expect anyone to answer it because the answer would rock everyone's faith WAAAAY too much.

Expect lots and lots of strident attacks against you personally.

[LoZoccolo]

21. It looks like someone has forgotten the primary process. n/t

[Zorra]

82. The primary process is often subject to the amount of money a candidate has

to campaign and advertise with.

Pro-corporate RW "Democrats", just like republicans, can be funded in certain ways by multitudes of wealthy special interests with sometimes unlimited funds in order to get a candidate elected that will serve their own agendas rather than the will of the people.

The primary process, like the general electoral process, is not an equitable one. Average individuals, labor unions, etc., do not have anywhere near the enourmous cash supply to support the campaigns of genuine Democratic candidates that wealthy special interests have to support the campaigns of their "hired hand" RW "Democratic" candidates.

The recent SCOTUS decision regarding campaign support by special interests has magnified this phenomenon to the extreme unprecedented levels that are literally a threat to our national security.

[Jamastiene]

22. Primaries are our only real power.

Vote consistently for the most progressive in the primaries and ignore who the DLC wants us to vote for.

If we actually start nominating progressives, who will actually fight for us, we can start to change things.

That's the only strategy I can figure out.

Everything else is just as you say. The have no incentive to actually fight for us if we just continually vote for them not to, like they have been.

[Johonny]

23. I don't blindly vote democratic

I understand the issues. I certain understand how much better this last democratic congress was with a dem president than a conservative one would be. I certainly understand they past more democratic stuff than anytime since Carter was in office. I certainly voted in the primary for the most liberal Dems I could get. And I certainly will vote for the best candidate come NOV and it certainly as hell won't be a Republicans. I suggest you get active and stop watching Faux.

[no limit]

28. You think I watch Fox News because I made this post?

[scheming daemons]

24. You DO realize that if the GOP wins, the Democrats will move to the RIGHT... dont you?

The Democrats WILL change if they lose.... but not in the direction you want.


See 1994.

[no limit]

25. How much further to the right could they possibly move?

I wasn't paying my attention in 1994 seeing as I was 9 at the time. But after they made the move to the right what happened to them in 2000?

So why are you asking me to learn my lessons? Why shouldn't they learn theirs?

[scheming daemons]

30. The time to move the Democrats left is during the primaries...

No matter how the Democrats SHOULD behave after the general election... I'm telling you how they WILL behave if they get slaughtered.


They will move hard right.


Saying "How much farther right could they go?" is very naive on your part. The Republican party is way, way, way to the right of even the DLC. If you don't think they can move farther right, you're politically naive.


Because of your youth, you haven't seen enough elections to know this.


But you will.

[no limit]

35. Thank you for your condescending tone about my youth

name some policy positions they will move further to the right on?

They already support cutting our social security, they are willing to have secret votes that help banks foreclose on homes, along with everything I mentioned above.

And we did try to get change in primaries. Not only did we get no support from the establishment democrats we were called fucking retarded for it.

And maybe because of your old age you are too fragile to fight for what you beleive in so you are willing to sell out your vote and use experiance as an excuse. (see, being condescending is easy).

[scheming daemons]

44. If all you got out of what I posted was the age-related condescension...then you're hopeless

Reality is going to smack you in the face after November 2nd.... when you find out just how far to the right they can go... on taxes, on SS, on health care, on immigration, on LGBT rights, on you name it.

I was your age in 1994. I thought like you did. Reality smacked me in the face.

Clinton turned hard right after the 1994 election. *HARD* right. And it got him elected in 1996.


If he hadn't screwed around with Monica Lewinsky, Gore would've won a landslide in 2000.... running in the CENTER.



I'm trying to point out how naive your politics are.... because A) I was you... and B) The barbarians are at the gate. And the barbarians have an "R" next to their names.

[no limit]

52. You call me young and naive but you don't seem to recall anything that happened during Clinton

Monica Lewinsky did not hurt Clinton and democrats politically, it helped them. Clinton's approval ratings shot up, not down. The reason Gore lost was that a lot of his support went to Nader instead. Why? because of the hard right turn you just described.

And I actually disagree that the hard turn right happened because they lost the midterms. They were turning right long before that. The sanctions against Iraq were uphelp before the midterms. NAFTA was passed before the midterms. As soon as he got elected he ran on a platform of deficit reduction by reducing many democratic programs. DADT was also introduced before the midterms.

The few good things that we got from Clinton came after 1996, such as SCHIP.

So is it that your old age is affecting your memory? I wasn't even in this country at the time and I was under 10, and I seem to have a better understanding of that time than you do.

And you are yet to name specifics on where the democratic party can turn right on. Taxes? They will cave to republicans. Social security? It's getting cut. Immigration? Not getting done. LBGT rights? Forget about it. So please, name something specific.

[lumpy]

122. Stick around, you'll learn with time that this democracy isn't

heaven,but so far it is closer to heaven than any other democracy has ever been. Gee, I should have realized that you are a newcomer to politics.

[scheming daemons]

26. Also... you work for change in the primaries... then fall in line for the general election

That's the way to progress things.

Move the Dems to the left in the primaries as much as you possibly can.... then vote for the Democrat in the general election, since the Democrat in the general election will almost ALWAYS be to the left of the Republican.


Vote for the left-most candidate (that can win!) in EVERY election. In the general election, that means the Democrat.

[MuseRider]

27. They have no incentive

as long as we blindly vote. I used to do it, no questions asked. It was easy, I did not have to think because I knew in my heart the D's were more to my liking than the R's ever would be. Now I find that neither of them come even close to what I used to vote for. They have no incentive to change if we do that, none at all however I don't think they have any incentive to change no matter what we mere people do anymore. They are after far more than we can offer them.

[NYC Liberal]

29. So then don't vote or write in other people. Easy...it's YOUR choice. nt

[Divernan]

46. Excellent idea re my despicable Blue Dog Congressman

who is being groomed by his corporate enablers to run for the Senate in the near future. I'll write in the name of his excellent, but underfunded primary opponent. Blue Dog will win this time around because of all his corporate moneybackers.

[Winterblues]

32. IMO this is their NOTICE...

I and many like me will vote for them in this election, but I want them put on NOTICE that I will not continue to tolerate their "Wall Street not Main Street" attitude.. Obama coined the phrase "Main Street not Wall Street" and then when on to give unconditional support to Wall Street and absolutely none for Main Street. Their watered down financial reform bill and unworkable Health Insurance Reform bill are both essentially worthless. Why have they not introduced any legislation dealing with the Supreme Court ruling that gives everyone, domestic or foreign, unlimited political spending without giving any identity..America no longer has any chance what-so-ever if we allow anonymous laundering of huge amounts of money into our political arena. The Chinese or Terrorist Organizations will pick our Congress and President....They have two years to either "shit or get off the pot" as my father would have put it...If Democrats are not going to produce then it truly no longer matters..

[JoePhilly]

36. No one votes for them blindly.

Do this ... stay home, and let the GOP decide who ends up on the Federal courts, and in the supreme court.

One of the worst outcomes of the Bush administration was how he stacked the courts, and dismantled the executive branch.

So stay home. Pout.

And enjoy 3rd world status when the GOP is through.

[no limit]

39. Republicans in the senate and house get to appoint judges. Thanks for that government lesson

[JoePhilly]

116. They get to approve them, or not approve them, or just block them .... you dope.

Take a civics class.

Congress has a very powerful role in this, and how everything else gets funded.

But again ... STAY HOME AND POUT.

The GOP will appreciate your convictions.

[EC]

37. That's what the primaries are for,

not the general...unless you like repub rule...

[backscatter712]

38. ++. Get out there in primary season.

[no limit]

40. Just rememeber that if you do the establishment will call you fucking retarded

and it will fight against you.

[scheming daemons]

45. So? Reality check... two sides often call each other names

DLC calls progressives names. progressives call DLC names.



Battle it out... and whoever gets the most votes wins.... THEN vote against the damn Republican in the general.

[no limit]

51. Right, progressive liberals with no money against the DLC machine with endless money

good luck to us I guess. Not to mention the white house, who's supposed to be looking out for us, throws its support happily behing the blue dogs while calling progressives names.

[jaxx]

48. well......................

[Renew Deal]

89. You have two choices

Deal with it or Leave. Pick one.

[no limit]

91. So now you are playing moderator too?

[Renew Deal]

92. I wasn't referring to DU

I mean in the party. There are solutions to the problems you mentioned, but you must understand that not everyone agrees that there is a problem and what that problem may be.

[no limit]

93. Actually I already don't consider myself a democrat, I stopped sometime after HCR

Thanks for the advice anyway.

[dionysus]

106. "I already don't consider myself a democrat".. no way!!11!!!11!!

:rofl:

[no limit]

109. I can't remember the last time I saw a post from you which was actually worthwhile

[dionysus]

110. i am truly dashed. you have cut me to the quick. does this mean we ain't pals?

[muffin1]

127. + a brazllion n/t

[LynneSin]

47. So you would rather give the power to Mitch McConnell and John Boehner?

We have a chance to fight against these 'bad' democrats (and I put 'bad' in quotes since everyone's definitino of a bad democrat is differnt) by finding great candidates for the primaries.

That is the time to fight, not now.

[no limit]

60. Did any establishment democrats support us during the primaries?

No. So why should we support them?

[derby378]

49. As someone who has no Democratic representation on the Federal or state level...

...I am supporting all of my Democratic candidates for public office. I realize I should support them more, but I am still getting over both the death of my wife and the loss of my job. But I'm rooting for Grier Raggio to replace Pete Sessions on Capitol Hill, John Wellik to replace Will Hartnett in Austin, and everyone else on the roster.

I also know Carol Kent's mother very well, as we have been friends for many years before Carol was elected to the State House.

If there are some compromising, corporatist Democrats that you cannot bring yourself to support, I understand and support your right to think for yourself. Me, I have nowhere to go but up. And that means all of the Democrats on my November ballot get my vote.

[Dawgs]

53. Because MORE Democrats will eventually get us 'single payer'/end of DADT/etc..

Not electing Democrats, good or bad, is the ONLY way to guarantee none of those things happen.

[ecstatic]

54. If we *don't* vote, it gives the impression that the public prefers RW policies

which in turn, makes them move further to the right. That is the cycle we keep finding ourselves in. If liberals would agree to just support the dems unconditionally for 10 years, a LOT would change. But the constant back and forth between supporting them then turning on them sends mixed messages.

[no limit]

62. You're right. That's why voting for 3rd party doesn't seem like such a bad idea

it will send the message. As it did in 2000. Too bad the democrats never learn their lessons.

[ecstatic]

86. umm... no... If Ralph Nader is your idea of the perfect answer

then I'm not sure anyone can really help you.

[no limit]

88. If you think selling your vote to corporate whores is the perfect answer

then I'm not sure anyone can really help you.

Wow, strawmen arguments are easy.

[pintobean]

56. None

Do whatever you think is right and can live with.

[SidDithers]

57. So don't support them...

What sort of a response do you want from this thread? Do you want people to plead and beg for you to vote Democratic? Are you hoping to convince others not to vote Democratic?

WTF?

Sid

[no limit]

58. So you are saying if people are disappointed as I am by all the things I posted in the OP

they shouldn't support democrats?

Thanks, that's what I was asking.

[SidDithers]

66. No, that's not what I'm saying...nt

Sid

[pipi_k]

61. I don't believe they will ever have an incentive to change...

no matter what.


If we don't vote at all, that means the R's win and the D's don't really have to change...all they have to do is wait long enough for the R's to hang themselves.


If we vote for a Third Party candidate, same thing. R's win, D's realize that not enough voters are going to vote Third Party and it's pointless for them to do it except as some kind of foolish "statement" type of thing which some will keep doing to their own detriment, but whatever. The disillusioned either refuse to vote at all after that, or go back to voting D. No real incentive to change.


And this is my own opinion, but I believe that anyone who thinks that a Third Party would be so very different from R's and D's is naive.

A person or party can start out with the best of intentions, but I don't believe it can be that way for very long, politics being what it is.

A lamb might be able to sneak into a wolf pack and survive for a while, but unless it becomes just like the other wolves, it's not going to last a real long time.

[independent_voter]

63. 'surely there is no one among you who wants to see Jones come back?'

From Animal Farm, by George Orwell

(Jones was the farmer ousted by the animals, who now run the farm, for 'themselves' (pigs?))

The mystery of where the milk went to was soon cleared up. It was mixed
every day into the pigs' mash. The early apples were now ripening, and the
grass of the orchard was littered with windfalls. The animals had assumed
as a matter of course that these would be shared out equally; one day,
however, the order went forth that all the windfalls were to be collected
and brought to the harness-room for the use of the pigs. At this some of
the other animals murmured, but it was no use. All the pigs were in full
agreement on this point, even Snowball and Napoleon. Squealer was sent to
make the necessary explanations to the others.

"Comrades!" he cried. "You do not imagine, I hope, that we pigs are doing
this in a spirit of selfishness and privilege? Many of us actually dislike
milk and apples. I dislike them myself. Our sole object in taking these
things is to preserve our health. Milk and apples (this has been proved by
Science, comrades) contain substances absolutely necessary to the
well-being of a pig. We pigs are brainworkers. The whole management and
organisation of this farm depend on us. Day and night we are watching over
your welfare. It is for YOUR sake that we drink that milk and eat those
apples. Do you know what would happen if we pigs failed in our duty? Jones
would come back! Yes, Jones would come back! Surely, comrades," cried
Squealer almost pleadingly, skipping from side to side and whisking his
tail, "surely there is no one among you who wants to see Jones come back?"

Now if there was one thing that the animals were completely certain of, it
was that they did not want Jones back. When it was put to them in this
light, they had no more to say. The importance of keeping the pigs in good
health was all too obvious. So it was agreed without further argument that
the milk and the windfall apples (and also the main crop of apples when
they ripened) should be reserved for the pigs alone.

[no limit]

64. Thank you for posting that, I never saw it before.

[independent_voter]

65. kinda fits, doesn't it?

written in 1945

some things never change

there's nothing new about what's happening here

[treestar]

67. You have to change the VOTERS

for crying out loud. You think you can just force the ELECTED leaders to do your bidding without regard to the other fuckin' voters who put them in!

This is the constant whine of the terminally disappointed. They are just too lazy to deal with convincing the voters to pick people further left. Then when the voters pick centrists they think the centrist representative has a duty to veer left, just because. They accuse them of cowardice (fear of not being reelected) when it could be just trying to honestly represent their constituents.

It's much HARDER than just voting for the party most likely to win that at least won't do damage (as if there were no Republicans, I might add). We have to convince the other voters. Which is not too likely when we don't bother with issues but just trash the reps THEY picked.

Honestly, the laziness of the left is the only real explanation for the country's rightward drift. Or, their lack of passion.

[independent_voter]

68. Both parties sold the middle/working classes out with 'free' trade

in tech workers are forced to train their foreign replcements before they are FIRED, and the new replacements then outsource the operation to India

BOTH parties support this

that's what this is about

when a party you've supported sells you out of your whole livelyhood, then tells you to 'quit whining, you should know that we're what's best for you', that's pretty damned offensive

[treestar]

108. then talk the voters into voting for some other party

in enough numbers to get them elected. And do it on another board, since this is for Democratic candidates' supporters.

FCOL! If you really think the Dems have sold you out, WTF do you think the Republicans are going to do? Outsourcing was likely their idea to begin with. If that's your one-issue concern, you're really stupid to fail to back the Democrats until you've gotten off your ass and gotten candidates of the Anti-Foreign-Employment Party in.

[independent_voter]

125. your attitude is becoming too typical

in condoning what's going on

[philly_bob]

69. I hope DU admins relax policy on discussions of 3rd parties

after they see results of survey.

[SidDithers]

81. And I hope discussions of 3rd party support continue to be locked by the admins....

after they see results of the survey.

Sid

[philly_bob]

98. We both hope DU admins publish results of survey, right?

I figure the key question is how many DUers consider themselves progressives and how many consider themselves democratic party members (I forget the question's wording).

I suspect progressives outnumber democratic party faithful on DU 3 to 1. Anyway, it will be interesting to find out.

[independent_voter]

70. ....

[no limit]

71. 70% of americans supported a public option. What's your excuse for that?

Similar numbers when it comes to tax cuts.

I am not asking for candidates that are far left. I am asking for democratic candidates.

[treestar]

117. Then they should have voted for the right candidates

Instead of watching Dancing with the Stars. They should have paid attention.

[Hello_Kitty]

96. When we do try to persuade voters on policy we get called "fucking retarded"

Remember why Rahm said that? It was because progressives were running ads asking voters to pressure Blue Dog Dem representatives on health care reform.

At rallies for health care reform in Arizona in 2009, single payer advocates were told by Dem party officials to put down their signs or were blocked from appearing on camera. The party was doing this, I swear to god, because they were worried that people advocating for single payer would lend credence to the teabagger accusation of a "government takeover" of health care.


So fuck right off with the "laziness" charge and, oh yeah, you use of the phrase "the left" once again with the clear inference that you are not among them is giving you away.

[treestar]

118. So you get called fucking retarded big deal

Soldier on. A little insult turns you into blubbering jelly? Shows how little you really cared about that public option that it would stop you.

[Hello_Kitty]

123. And what are you working hard for?

What policies, progressive or otherwise, are you going out into your community to champion?

[Renew Deal]

72. The time for this argument is in the primaries.

If you allow the republicans to win, what incentive do they have to change?

[independent_voter]

74. translation 'speak when spoken to'

and do as you're told

[Renew Deal]

80. Your translator is broken

[independent_voter]

100. the 'quit whining' arguement presupposes that voters believe the party has acted in 'good faith'

and just had a hard time delivering everything everyone wants

and not everyone believes that

[no limit]

76. Im not asking the republicans to change, I don't expect them to

I'm asking democrats to be democrats. And primaries don't seem to be changing that, especially since the white house and the democratic leadership fights against us in those primaries.

[Renew Deal]

79. Maybe you're not fighting hard enough.

Republicans have been able to successfully primary a bunch of elected officials. Or maybe it's time to accept that Democratic voters like their candidates?

[no limit]

84. So you like our candidates? You are okay with everything I listed?

[Renew Deal]

87. I like my candidates

Schumer and Gillibrand. I like my congressperson who is a Dem. I'm OK with my candidate for Governor (Cuomo). I am very happy about my candidate for state attorney general. I'm so happy with them that I actually did something constructive and donated money last night. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9270690

[no limit]

90. To be fair I like Schumer too, wish I could vote for him.

[Jakes Progress]

78. No incentive. Hence the DLC.

[semillama]

85. you could take an example from our opposition

Look how many Republican incumbents were tossed to the side in favor of militant nutbags who were even more conservative.

If you want Democratic politicians to change, the place and time to really effect that is during the primaries, where it will have the most impact.

[HughMoran]

94. U&H

[pampango]

97. Of course, not voting for Democrats rewards obstructionist repubs/teabaggers. You can't win.

And that's the problem. Oh, repubs shot down cap-and-trade, not Democrats.

[Name removed]

101. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Egnever]

102. Blind is

Not recognizing the diferences between a center left democratic party in general and a far right republican party.

Blind is pretending there is no difference and that sitting it out and allowing the right wing nut jobs to come to power will teach anyone a lesson. If anyhthing the lesson that will be taught is that the dems werent leaning right enough cause god knows the electorate wanted more wingers in there right?

[independent_voter]

103. what bugs me about all this talk about 'the republicans' is

when i was in grade school, and a teacher wanted to talk to me about something I did, my bringing up another student's behavior went NOWHERE

i was sharply and correctly reminded that the talk was about me, not them

It's a standard I expect from others, as an adult

[dionysus]

104. bless your heart for campaigning against the dems so hard, every day... you are my hero.

:eyes:

[DailyGrind51]

111. I'm voting "Green" in at least two contests in Illinois and informed the Dem campaign offices why.

"No change from the status quo, no vote!"

[Name removed]

114. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zax2me]

112. Using the house fire (shudder!) as an analogy - just vote Dem

You address how the owner will pay for services rendered after his house is saved. Discuss any additional fines, and finally the overall problem of what to do about people that choose not to pay for protection - but expect it when needed.

You vote for Dems to save seats, control of the house, control of the senate, governorships.
Once the party is safe in place after Nov.2nd, we then go to work to solve our problem - why Dems aren't responding to middle America's wish for a progressive agenda. (Which was spoken loud and clear in the 2008 elections).

Don't let the 'house' burn. All that you are left with is a smoldering mess - more republicans in power.

[Zorra]

115. Frustrating. Makes my head hurt when I think about it. Don't know why.

:banghead:
Well, I guess maybe I do.

I keep myself sane by thinking about all the totally awesome Democratic legislators that we have.

The ancient gypsy curse I put on the bad ones should take effect shortly.

[BzaDem]

119. "And why should I just accept that?" Maybe because it is TRUE, whether you like it or NOT?

Why do you think you are entitled to LIKE the choice you have on election day? You aren't entitled to shit. Your choice is to vote for the Democrat or to enable the Republican. Just because you don't LIKE that choice doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

You could scream, whine, complain, trash the room, mope, cry, stomp, or whatever else you want. But none of that changes the choice you have. You could even deny that voting third party IS enabling the Republican. But that doesn't it isn't true. You could say the sky were red, but that wouldn't make it red. You might REALLY REALLY want Congress to act your will into law. But just because you REALLY REALLY want something doesn't mean what you want is EVER going to happen, under ANY scenario. Most people learn of this possibility when they reach the age of 5, and discover that trashing the room doesn't result in them getting what they want. (It just results in them NOT getting what they want, PLUS a trashed room.)

"all I want is the option to vote for actual Democrats."

If you don't consider the general election candidate an "actual Democrat," that is just too fucking bad for you. You can get a "fake Democrat" or a real Republican. Eventually, you will come to your senses and RUN to the polls to elect whatever Democrat is on the ballot. The only question is how much MORE pain you have to suffer under Republican rule before your survival instinct takes over.

If you think you are somehow "punishing" a Democrat by voting them out, you should call one up and tell them that. Call them up at their new lobbying gig, where they are making MULTIPLE TIMES what they were EVER making as a Congressperson. They would likely laugh in your face. The Republican-enacted policies that follow would just hurt you -- they wouldn't hurt the ex-Democratic-Congressman.

[no limit]

132. So you are saying that this won't ever change and as a result we shouldn't try

great advice, but I'll pass.

[lumpy]

120. Fucking sick and tired of whiners who expect instant

gratification. There are many things that need fixing in this country. Pissing and moaning about them won't change a damn thing. Don't sit back and expect others to do the work you can be doing. Letting you feelings be known on a political forum ain't going to do the job. Join/form another party and work at it if you don't like this one. If you like this party get out and do some campaigning on your own for the people you can support. That's the only alternative other than staying home and letting others do the voting. It isn't easy to make changes but US history proves it can be done.

[independent_voter]

126. the party has been going along with the globalization/'free trade' movement for 18 years

it is a movement that busts labor's bargaining position, period, and puts labor on it's knees begging before the employer

to me, the Democratic party was a 'super union' that bolsters the position of those in a union, and gives some defense to those who dont have the option of working in a union (which is most workers). it's completely unacceptable to spend 2 full decades taking a baseball bat to labor and still expect to be considered a 'work'in man's party'. this movement has busted both blue and white collar

absent a true commitment to working people, i dont see what's left that's really worth much to me. and no, i'm not going to just shut up and vote as a result. it's disturbing that the party now seems to be moving on to silencing legitimate dissent as a reaction to people noticing what has happened

asking the party to take steps to reverse after 18 years in what is probably a depression is hardly asking for 'instant gratification', and saying it with profanity hardly legitimises your position. in a severe jobs recession, the job market is still being glutted with 'guest workers'. Is there a 'shortage of jobs' or a 'shortage of workers'? which is it? Does anyone really believe that every guest worker brought in is doing a job 'americans cant do' when the american is training their own replacement before they're fired?

this isnt something that is putting a little damper on working people's lives, it's something that is completely wiping them out

for 16 years, party members have heard 'if only we had the house, the senate and the white house, THEN we could do something...'

well, they've had it

and done nothing

[no limit]

131. Did I say anything about staying home?

[muffin1]

128. K&R

I feel your pain. Our choices always seem to boil down to a 'Palin' kind of candidate (who is obviously batshit crazy) or a 'pragmatic' Dem (who shows his/her disdain for us in more subtle ways). I also hate giving approval to these Dems by casting my vote, but the alternative is scary as hell.

How depressing to be this depressed so early in the morning. ;(

[brooklynite]

133. The incentive to change comes in Primaries...

With a month to go, for better or worse, these are our candidates. And they are not as bad as the Republican alternative.