You think entertainers and athletes make too much?

[edhopper]

I see this often in reference to some entertainer or sports figure.
Look, their work generates a lot of money because we, the public, pay en masse, a lot to enjoy that.
Better they get the money than it all go to the owners. It's their efforts that generate the money.
But the thing is what they make is chump change compared to the leaches on Wall Street who make tons more money for moving around paper.
Wall Street and the Financial Sector have gamed the system so that they siphon of more and more from the economy, no mater what happens.
And i don't think you can show what they do is of great benefit to the country. (and much of it is harmful).
If you want to be outrages about massive amounts of money going to a few people.
If you think teachers or nurses or firemen get little pay for hard work compared to some one. Start there.

[mucifer]

1. No one person should have hundreds of millions of dollars. I don't care if they cured cancer. nt

[mainer]

2. If you think they make too much, become one.

And give your money back.

[mucifer]

4. yeah I'm gonna make a billion dollars as a pediatric hospice nurse. I make plenty of money.

I have no complaints about my pay. But, entertainers shouldn't get crazy amounts of money.

[mainer]

6. So BECOME AN ENTERTAINER. What's stopping you?

That's the thing. Everyone whines that Larry David makes too much money. Or JK Rowling. But no one's stopping you from writing a book or learning to write comedy.

[RaleighNCDUer]

15. Most complainers don't choose to recognize that such a career is usually

very short-lived, and actually attaining that level is very difficult.

For every top athlete with a multi-million dollar contract there are tens of thousands of high-school coaches and personal trainers at local gyms. For every superstar actor, there are tens of thousands who get three commercials a year and spend the rest of their time making home-made jewelry between auditions. For every JK Rowling, there are tens of thousands who had a dozen unpublished manuscripts sitting in a desk drawer (that's the one I claim).

And MOST of the multi-million dollar superstars are all to willing to acknowledge how lucky they are. Only the shits on Wall Street, and those who made their money the old fashioned way - by inheritance - seem to think the world OWES them their food fortune.

[edhopper]

17. K + R

Thanks for getting my point.

[PVnRT]

47. +1

[onpatrol98]

71. +1

[MattyGroves]

20. They should get every cent that the public wishes to direct their way

Whether they should keep all that money for their personal pleasure may be up for discussion.

However, they technically earned it from their "customers" who chose to purchase that "product.".

[Dappleganger]

21. It bothers me

that we idolize those people, when it's folks like YOU who are the real heroes. My best friend was a pediatric ICU nurse at UVA for 11 years and I was able to sneak onto the floor with her many, many years ago to see what she did. I saw things there that will never leave me...people like you are the real heroes in this world!

:hug:

[edhopper]

7. I choose to

create something real in my life.
But if you want to think that the financial sector is not harming this country.
Just keep those blinders on.

[dkf]

3. Financial products are the one thing we produce nowadays.

Sad but true

[edhopper]

5. "financial products"

unregulated, almost destroyed our economy. They do nothing but enrich a very few at the expense of everyone else.

[dkf]

18. We shipped out everything else.

It really worries me that we didn't use this crisis to set up our future economy. We need some serious strategizing on a national level as to where this country is going.

[Scuba]

8. No, I think the poor don't make enough. I don't begrudge...

anyone their wealth, but those with wealth should not be allowed to keep ALL their wealth while others suffer.

[SammyWinstonJack]

9. +1

:thumbsup:

[edhopper]

14. I do begrudge

people on Wall Street or Ceos for making ungodly sums while screwing the rest of us.
Do you really think the people at Goldman Sachs deserve the money they are amassing.

[Scuba]

26. No way they deserve it. But it's a long way from .....

... a $1.4 Billion Bonus to the paltry millions that athletes and other entertainers are paid.

But the real problem is the suffering that goes into making them that wealthy.

[Missy Vixen]

69. Do you think athletes and entertainers keep all their wealth?

Athletes and entertainers pay the tax man. They pay an agent. That percentage is everything from 3% (athletes) to 15% (authors). If you have a publicist, you're paying them as well. There are costs involved in keeping your "instrument" ready to go; I've read about some of the stuff NFL players pay for, up to and including a personal chef for optimal nutrition.

1 in 15,000 young men who turn out for football make the pros. Those who last more than four seasons (league average,) do very well, but they have a mountain of costs along with the mountain of money.

[ZombieHorde]

10. The legal salaries in our society reflect our values as a society.

According to our society's values, Micheal Vick is significantly more important than teachers, nurses, paramedics, pharmacists, etc.

[mainer]

11. They reflect the uniqueness of your skill set and experience

Many, many people can hammer a nail into wood. A fewer number of people can direct a crew to build a house. An even fewer number of people can design that house. The house designer is going to make more money than the guy on the job site who drives the nail into the board -- even though the guy with the hammer may work longer hours, and under worse conditions.

[mucifer]

13. I don't agree. I think Larry David's comedy is very entertaining. But, it's not that much different

than Jack Benny who did the same schtick 75 years ago.

[mainer]

33. Jack Benny was rich, too. So it's a good schtick.

Since it seems to work across generations.

[ZombieHorde]

27. Why do men make more money in our society than women?

Are men more unique than women, does our society value men more than women, or is there another reason?

Are master football players more unique than master Dungeons and Dragons players, or does our society simply value football over Dungeons and Dragons? Are master teachers more common than master football players? Are master hospice workers more common than master football players? Are the employees of Blackwater more unique in their skill set than the US armed forces?

Seems to me salaries reflect values more than uniqueness.

[mainer]

35. Neurosurgeons make more than pediatricians

When more women become neurosurgeons and more men go into pediatrics, then women will make more.

[ZombieHorde]

50. The gender salary differences in the US already take that into account.

I see you avoided all of my other points.

[mainer]

53. I earn more than almost all the men I know

and I'm a woman. Aside from the issues having to do with child-rearing (which are a big stumbling block for most women) I still believe that career choice has a lot to do with earning power.

[ZombieHorde]

56. If I bothered finding the evidence, would you believe it? nt

[mainer]

59. Of course. But it doesn't negate my experience.

and the career and educational choices I made in life, which led to a certain result.

We each have our own sets of experiences. I can tell you of many, many talented and accomplished women who chose their own paths (college and grad school, focus on career). And many women who chose to go down different paths (married early, no college,). The end result is, too often, entirely predictable.

[ZombieHorde]

61. I am not trying to negate your expereinces or hard work.

I am claiming women do not yet receive equal pay for equal work. Generally speaking, a black woman in the US has to work harder than a white man in order to earn as much money.

http://books.google.com/books?id=8yu8YymmxMEC&pg=PA14402&lpg=PA14402&dq=men+women+salaries+same+job+same+occupation&source=bl&ots=-66aFbZID8&sig=TFcDQRzcInfg7LGADmnTCRV8TN4&hl=en&ei=4vCtTK2vNYfEsAPPlITfDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&sqi=2&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false

If you look at the middle column, first paragraph, starting with the words, "Some argue that...," you will see what I am talking about. Though if you read sooner than that, you will see some jobs pay women more than men. Overall though, men have an easier time than women at work.

[edhopper]

12. Again

you point out Vick, who makes a few million a year.
And ignore the hundreds of millions made on Wall Street for doing nothing beneficial to our society, and in fact do great harm at times.

[ZombieHorde]

28. That is a very nice observation. Good job. *Hands you a smiley face sticker* nt

[RaleighNCDUer]

22. Not at all true. Apples and oranges.

If there were five million professional athletes in this country, and five thousand top-flight teachers, you'd see teachers pulling in the big bucks and being featured guests on talk shows, while the athletes were worried about the next round of budget cuts.

Take the salaries of the top 5000 athletes in the country and compare them to the salaries of the top 5000 educators. Sure, there's still a big discrepancy, but the top educators don't have the networks clammoring after them. How much does the Chancellor of your state college system make? Upwards of 3/4 million dollars, I'd bet. In athletics terms, 7.5 million for a ten year contract. Compare that to a ten year middle school teacher.

Scarcity and public presence. That's what makes a Vick worth more than a paramedic. It has nothing to do with what the public 'values' and a lot to do with a wide-spread base contributing pennies apiece to the upward flow of fortune. Teachers and paramedics are not 'up' and don't have a wide base contributing to them. Top athletes, movie stars, superstar musicians do.

[ZombieHorde]

29. "Teachers and paramedics are not 'up' and don't have a wide base contributing to them."

Because they are not as valuable to our society. Football players have a wide spread base because of our values. If we did not value football as much as we do, people would not pay so much money to attend their games. How much does watching people play Magic the Gathering cost?

How many Presidents of the United States do we have at any one time? How many State Governors? One and fifty. How many football players do we have? I don't know the answer to that one, but I know there is more than fifty.

[RaleighNCDUer]

43. Again, apples and oranges. You are comparing teachers and paramedics to

football superstars, not to athletes who are on their level, or to educators or doctors who are the superstars of their own profession. Why not compare the paramedic to the head of the medical center who takes home 2.5 million?

It is not that we hold the athlete in so much greater esteem than the teacher, but the athlete is held in great esteem by 40,000,000 people (pass up to him a penny apiece) and the teacher is held in great esteem by her students, her colleagues, her students' parents, call it 200 people (pass up to her a penny apiece). Collect the pennies, who has more?

You conflate two very different arguments - are they worth the money, and is their money an indicator of their worth? Is WalMart a better store than Nieman Marcus because it has a greater bottom line? Walmart make a LOT of money by getting a LITTLE bit of money from a LOT of people.

Same thing.

[ZombieHorde]

54. Professional Football players make a lot more than $2.5 million.

It is not that we hold the athlete in so much greater esteem than the teacher, but the athlete is held in great esteem by 40,000,000 people (pass up to him a penny apiece) and the teacher is held in great esteem by her students, her colleagues, her students' parents, call it 200 people (pass up to her a penny apiece). Collect the pennies, who has more?

Yes, our society values Football more than teaching. If our society valued teaching as much as it values football, there would be millions of people excited to watch lectures on Monday nights.

You conflate two very different arguments - are they worth the money, and is their money an indicator of their worth? Is WalMart a better store than Nieman Marcus because it has a greater bottom line? Walmart make a LOT of money by getting a LITTLE bit of money from a LOT of people.

Not better, valued more. I am not familiar with Nieman Marcus, so I feel strange commenting on this.

[mainer]

32. There are a lot of professional athletes who aren't millionaires.

And I bet that a minor league baseball player in a podunk town isn't raking in huge amounts. Nor is a 100th seeded tennis player. It's the stars that draw our attention and envy -- because of the simple fact that they are stars.

So I don't see why we focus on athletes or entertainers. Think of all the actors who are waiting tables. Most of them are hungrier than any teacher. Yet we rail about those 'rich movie stars" when they are actually a very small minority.

[political_Dem]

16. Yes, there is something wrong when a whiny kid like Justin Bieber makes that kind of money.

Other artists have struggled and suffered to create real art while this snot nosed little kid is seen on You Tube and in the next moment is singing about his non-existent love life while the Tweens shout out his name.

It only shows that the true value of work and intellect is not valued in this country. Only shallowness and self-centeredness is the crux of America now. :(

[edhopper]

19. For whatever reason

millions of kids enjoy Bieber's music and pay for it.
I am astonished by how people continue to get upset about the entertainers' and athletes' income.
And give the criminals on Wall Street an complete pass.

[political_Dem]

25. I agree with you partially on the point that people do not get outraged enough at Wall Street.

I am outraged at the callousness and gluttony of Wall Street and other CEO's who continue rob the working person's every dime.

But I am concerned over the fact with such visibility given to talentless people like Bieber and Cyrus (not to mention the folks on reality shows). What does it teach the rest of American society about our art and popular culture?

The point being is that we have to stop dumbing down our culture. Something must be done to bring back the value of art, literature, film and other entertainment. Today's entertainment industry caters to repetition and blandness. There are few artists out there who try to produce meaning with their art that impacts an entire society. The ones who truly are artistic are being overshadowed by the ones who are simply out there to make money.

That's why education needs to be fixed in our schools. It would change the way people value entertainment. Smarter people make better art.

[ZombieHorde]

36. The OP is about entertainers, you big silly. nt

[edhopper]

48. No it's not.

It's about the leeches on Wall Street.

[ZombieHorde]

58. I admit the OP is more about "the leeches on Wall Street" than entertainers,

but the OP does use entertainers as a contrast.

[RaleighNCDUer]

24. On the other hand, if Bieber doesn't have what it takes he'll just be another

"Who?" featured on VH1 in ten years and he tends bar between summer stock gigs. Or, he may surprise us. After all, Sinatra started as the tween star of his day and had a career that lasted 50 years.

[ensho]

23. no they aren't paid too much. they work long and hard for their success

its hard work to become a star of anything.

[athenasatanjesus]

30. Not really most modern stars are just using gimmicks and are promoted by the media.

[ensho]

38. gimmicks don't make you a star - and of course the media promotes

nt

[athenasatanjesus]

46. You are joking right?

What about the many actors and musicians that use sex to sell poor acting and musical abilities.In fact how many people basically use sex to make it in every level or entertainment while much more talented people are stuck in obscurity,this is especially true among women in entertainment.
What do you call the modern MSM (which produces stars)the MSM is mostly reliant on gimmicks nowadays using flash,loud opinions,and of course more sex.
How about reality TV,or celebrity gossip which often promotes talentless celebrities just to sell their celebrity.
Look at Lady Gaga a woman with moderate musical talent that just wears random crap but lots of it to pass herself off as creative and of course sells more sex.

[cherokeeprogressive]

64. Hellooooo... Lady Gaga? Gimmicks don't make you a star? n/t

[Bluenorthwest]

67. Lady GaGa, while you might not like her, is a highly trained

artist. She was a full ride, early admissions student to one of the best art schools in the country when she was a teenager. She wrote songs others recorded before she recorded. She composes, plays, sings, designs. She was a conceptual artist in the NYC tradition. GaGa is far more than a gimmick, and you not liking her music is does not change that fact. She is very young, but even she put in years of hard work, daily practice, class, criticism, and the whole deal. What else is there? She's got all the creds anyone in the arts ever has. There are no more to have.

[cherokeeprogressive]

70. Where in my post were her musical talents OR her "creds" mentioned?

[ZombieHorde]

31. Do you believe entertainers work harder than coal miners? nt

[ensho]

40. this thread isn't about who works the hardest its about the money

'stars' make.

[ZombieHorde]

55. You brought up the subject of hard work, and then I commented on it. nt

[athenasatanjesus]

34. The larger the population gets the higher the reward of visibility.

This is what's so scary about our modern globalized world,just being noticed (for whatever reason) will reap obscene amounts of reward since all you need to do is get a tiny % of those people to pay you for your services and you can clean up.

[lumberjack_jeff]

37. Yes. Absolutely yes.

The talents which are valued in this society are a VERY poor reflection of our social values.

[Johonny]

39. no I think they are underpaid

too many sports the owners are shrinking the share of the profits the players get. Even though most owner contribute almost nothing to the actual entertainment value. Most entertainment industries have strong unions. So one can only imagine what it would be like without them (actually you don't have to because we have comparisons in some sports to when they didn't). I support the players totally in any labor negotiation.

Now should the entertainment industry make that much $? You simply can't compare a for profit industry with what should be a non-profit industry like say teaching. If you don't like how much a for profit industry like movies or sports make. Don't watch. The fact people want entertainment seems to indicate it's not going anywhere. For the record most actors make very little. Most athletes never make the major leagues. Entertainment is a very tough industry.

[ensho]

41. kick

nt

[Deep13]

42. We need a maximum wage.

And no, I'm not trying to be funny.

[cherokeeprogressive]

65. Where would you set that maximum wage?

By what authority would you impose it, and by what means would you enforce it?

Should it be a world-wide maximum wage, or am I free to go live in another country to make it?

And there's nothing wrong with being unintentionally funny.

[Deep13]

73. The U.S.A., Congress, there's no global legislature...

...and go where you want, but you do not have a right to loot this country and abscond with its resources. So the goodies stay here.

EDIT: If by "where" you mean "how much," my suggestion is that no corporation may pay its highest paid employee more than 12x what it pays its lowest paid employee.

[Statistical]

44. I don't see atheletes and entertainers w/ obscense salaries to be any better or worse than banker..

with obscene salaries.

Easy way to "Deal" with it in a uniform and fair fashion..... BY PROGRESSIVE TAXATION.

If it were me I would
a) let Bush tax cuts expire
b) raise 2nd highest bracket by 1% MORE, and the highest bracket by 3% more.
c) add 2 new brackets at 43% and 49%. One at income >$1 million, the next at income greater than $10 million.

Right now we have
10% <$8,000
15% >$8,000
25% >$34,000
28% >$82,000
33% >$172,000
35% >$340,000

I would simply make it slightly more progressive
10% <$8,000
15% >$8,000
25% >$34,000
28% >$82,000
37% >$172,000
41% >$340,000
44% >$1 mil
49% >$10 mil

It is insane is days of $1 mil, $10 mil, $100 mil salaries that the max tax bracket is $340K.

Someone making $340,000, $340,000,000, and $340,000,000,000 are taxed at the exact same marginal rate.

[DirkGently]

45. Nothing wrong with entertainers making money. It illustrates a poor set of cultural values, is all.

A middling teacher contributes more to society than a fantastic ball player or movie star. An ambulance driver helps more people than the most popular singer. When someone says one of these exalted "celebrity" professions pays "too much," it doesn't necessarily imply blame for that person, or that we should somehow actively deny the person their wealth.

But the fact is that we, especially in America, frequently confuse actual worth and worthiness with profit. The two are not the same. This same basic fallacy by which people confuse the Europeans' ability to kill off indigenous populations with "superior" culture. Nothing superior about having more guns, germs, and steel than someone else.

And, this is part of why our "smartest" Ivy Leaguers head in droves, not into universities or laboratories, but to Wall Street, where they can become "wealth creators," which, in that particular case, actually is a bad thing, to the extent that the system is so thoroughly rigged to siphon money from the many for the benefit of the few. And to a greater extent, money has become the measure of how worthy something is, e.g. "He's worth millions." As though net monetary worth was interchangeable with actual human worth. It isn't.

When someone says an entertainer or "celebrity" (what does that mean, exactly?) makes "too much," they're just pointing out correctly that the ability to collect wealth for your endeavors in this country is grossly out of sync with the actual value of the endeavor itself.


Editted for speling.

[athenasatanjesus]

49. Alot of big name athlete's salaries are paid for by taxpayers.

Remember most of the stadiums that they play in are funded by tax payers and the money that the owners are saving is used for those massive contracts.
Another reason some top athlete's make so much is that they take much of the profits companies don't spend on their workers lots of low wage earners work at said usually taxpayer funded stadiums and lets not forget how many shoe companies use sweatshop labor,and pay the majority of their workers (even the ones not in sweatshops) crap wages so they can pay for an athletes endorsement.

[LanternWaste]

51. I don't know what too much is...

I don't know what too much is, only what too little is.

[Javaman]

52. Is this the two minute hate topic du jour?

this is the 3rd thread I have seen today regarding Larry David and his wealth.

[edhopper]

63. It's actually about

the wealth of people on Wall Street.

[mainer]

57. Average actor's income: $49,000

http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layouthtmls/swzl_compresult_national_ar17000001.html

What was that about rich actors again?

[Bluenorthwest]

66. Ah, and that is an average, which includes the top earners

The actual income of the vast majority of Union Actors from acting is far, far less than that, far less than a living of any kind. About $5,000. Few make a living, fewer a decent living.
But very good answer! Thanks!

[Locrian]

60. too much disparity

I think there is too much difference between the top and all the rest.

ie the "top" ones make too much and everyone else makes waaaay too little.

[SargeUNN]

62. Yes but as long as the money is there they

will go for it, unless they are like Coach Jeff Bower said when turning down a much bigger pay day than he got at Univ. of Southern Miss. He said he wanted to be at Southern Miss and he was already at a point financially he didn't need more so he was choosing where his heart was. Of course a few seasons later he was forced to resign because he wasn't winning as much as the fans felt he should. The last losing season at USM was 1991 and the current coach is in his 3rd year after 2 7-6 seasons.

[Bluenorthwest]

72. Ah, Sarge. Bower, as you say, was 'at a point financially'

Most entertainers never ever get to a point of financial security. Even with good income, it is rare to meet any performer who feels they have enough to do whatever they wish. If we look at all who make a living coaching, we'd quickly conclude that Bowers was also in a rare, very fortunate position. Most coaches do not get rich. He did. He, like the movie star who returns to the theater, was a lucky exception to the rule.
Bower went for the money, got enough, then went for emotional perks. Lucky him. Many performers do this all the time, working for far less to do quality. All the time. The lucky ones, who have that option. The tiny percentage who become Bower like stars.

[SargeUNN]

75. yep I was in coaching

I saw many talented coaches have to move on because they had to live.

[Bluenorthwest]

68. Most entertainers barely make a dime

And that is the important factor. Most Union Actors do not make a living from acting. The bulk make less than $5,000 a year from acting. They are very much underpaid. Same goes for other entertainers. An entertainer who hits larger income would have to be insane to pass it by, because the following year might bring no income at all.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

74. "..athletes and entertainers.." = redundant.