The Final Word: Fire Fighters Condemn South Fulton, Tennessee Decision to Let Home Burn Down

[Better Believe It]

For Immediate Release
Contact: Tim Burn
October 5, 2010 202 230-7167

Fire Fighters Condemn South Fulton’s
Decision to Let Home Burn

Washington, DC – International Association of Fire Fighters General President Harold Schaitberger
today issued the following statement on the September 29 fire in Obion County, Tennessee:

“The decision by the South Fulton Fire Department to allow a family’s home to burn to the ground was
incredibly irresponsible. This tragic loss of property was completely avoidable. Because of South
Fulton’s pay-to-play policy, fire fighters were ordered to stand and watch a family lose its home.

“Everyone deserves fire protection because providing public safety is among a municipality’s highest
priorities.

“Instead, South Fulton wants to charge citizens outside the city for fire protection. We condemn South
Fulton’s ill-advised, unsafe policy. Professional, career fire fighters shouldn’t be forced to check a list
before running out the door to see which homeowners have paid up. They get in their trucks and go.”

The International Association of Fire Fighters, headquartered in Washington, DC, represents more than 298,000
full-time professional fire fighters and paramedics and is the leading advocate for health and safety of first
responders in North America. More information is available at www.iaff.org
##

http://www.iaff.org/Comm/PDFs/SouthFulton.pdf

[itsrobert]

1. I'm so glad this is the FINAL WORD.

ok

[Better Believe It]

4. I'm also glad that fire fighters have the final word. And they are right!

:)

[COLGATE4]

2. One man's opinion. And you know what they say about opinions...

[Better Believe It]

6. One man's opinion? He's speaking for an organization representing 300,000 fire fighters!

[COLGATE4]

28. You can't make that assumption. The fact that he holds the office

doesn't mean that his opinion is that of all his membership.

[emilyg]

36. You can't make the

assumption that it isn't.

[Hannah Bell]

49. well, the first comment is:

Submitted by dtallmanpa on Thu, 10/07/2010 - 1:04pm.

I empathize with comments on here - both directions. First, I work for a career dept and 100% loyal to the IAFF. And, my career began in the Volunteers. I still work and serve with Volunteers. This case illustrates the problems with our economies across the nation; instead of the focus being on the failure of the county/city etc. to provice protection for it's citizens the anger is being directed a the very people who are sacrificing their lives and time to provide the service.

It takes money to run a volunteer FD just as a career dept. The problem is nobody wants to pay in either case until the flames are under their butts. Then they begin finger pointing. Subscription service is the founding history of the fire service - but, it too went away because truly, can $50 or $100 or what's the real amount the really pays for the service? Communities need to incorporate fire service in their tax base so all citizens receive the same level of service and I'm certain that's what the IAFF President is saying. Best to all of you!


the second comment is:

Submitted by vollie7300 on Thu, 10/07/2010 - 11:28am.

Several factors must be considered. First, how long has the property owner chosen not to pay the subscription fee? One year, two? Second, how many people are in the subscriber base? A thousand, ten thousand? How else might the FD successfully generate revenue? If the FD responds to an event for a non-subscriber, what allows the FD to think some insurance company would pay for the response?

My Vol. FD relys on subsriptions to remain viable. Our only other source of revenue are fundraisers. These are difficult because not all FF's choose to participate. We have received grant money in the past but this all too infrequent.

We have four vehicles and a fire house that can only hold three. Our brush truck is in a barn about 3/4 mile away. There are 278 properties from whom we can solicit a subscription fee of $50 - six of these chose not to pay last year and probably will not pay this coming year. Just at 10% of the homes in our community are for sale. What might be the number who opt out of paying this next year?

There is no guarantee that an insurance company will pay us to fight a fire (or show up for a medical event) at some non-subscriber's property. We have a bank loan for our tanker and pumper and our insurance went up nearly 10% this year.

Our FD has made every attempt to educate our subscribers that their fee is a very important ingredient in the grand overall plan. They, hopefully, understand - if you do not subscribe for services than you cannot expect to receive services.



then there's this one:

Submitted by Sam D. Fahrman on Thu, 10/07/2010 - 9:11am.

Does the IAFF extend it's benefits and union privleges to firefighters who don't pay dues to the IAFF? Just wondering...

[Matariki]

39. NO, he's speaking in his official capacity as head of the Internation Association of Firefighters

On their official letterhead.

You are arguing a lost cause.

[RaleighNCDUer]

19. IAFF is not 'one man'. nt

[Gormy Cuss]

24. One union's opinion.

One union representing 298,000 firefighters.

[COLGATE4]

30. Same point as above. Or is there some evidence somewhere

that he polled his membership or in any other way determined what the sense of the entire membership was on this question? My guess is no. So, regardless of the title on the door, this is just one man expressing his opinion. Nothing more.

[derby378]

37. You can call it opinion all you want...

...but facts are facts. The house should have been saved. End of discussion.

[Gormy Cuss]

38. When issuing a position as head of the union, he is speaking on behalf of the membership.

That's how it works.

[The Uncola]

70. You have it exactly backwards...

.. which isn't surprising coming from someone with a clear ANTI Union bias. It's when rat scabs speak that it's "one man's opinion." You know, the self -interested, I'll kiss the company's ass to keep my crappy job, I'm too gawddamn cheap to pay a modest amount of dues towards the betterment of ALL my Union brothers and sisters welfare, rat scabs.

Presidents of Unions do indeed speak for their members. IT'S PART OF WHAT THEY ARE ELECTED TO DO. Scabs don't get elected, they just run off at the mouth.

[joe black]

76. Well done..

My union brother. We stand tall and proud. FUCK THE SCABS.

[jaxx]

3. And that is that.

[Bunny]

5. Final Word? Really?

It's not the final word until WE say it's the final word.

[Better Believe It]

8. Yes! Case Closed.

:)

[Divine Discontent]

7. these actions regarding fires will eventually let people burn to death if not stopped. Go IAFF.

[Incitatus]

31. Some here would still say they deserved it if that did happen. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. Parse it, they are asking for an investigation too

worst case, and I mean this as the absolute WORST CASE, Fulton FD will lose it's certification.

Getting it back will be not just expensive, but will cost a few in the brass their jobs.

Oh and NO FFD fire fighgter will be able to find employment for the next five years ANYWHERE ELSE. That goes without saying.

So if the worst happens no certified fire department... no fire department.

For all those sayin' they did the right thing... well I hope they are also happy with THESE consequences.

Oh and forgot, this is FAR from the final word. This has entered a whole new level of discussion...

I would not be too shocked if Fulton FD CANCELS it's mutual aid agreement with Obion county within the next month, and the same goes for everybody else who has a mutual aid agreement. Obion will have to pony up for a FD or houses will just burn.

[Freddie Stubbs]

10. So, the people of South Fulton should pay to provide fire service for the entire state of TN?

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. No Obion CO should raise taxes to fund a FD

is this so complex?

That said, mark my words, Obion CO will start having a small issue getting OTHERS to do their firefighting.

[Tempest]

14. A tax that would only cost pennies a year per parcel

I read it would only take 13 cents a parcel per year to fully fund the fire department for the entire county.

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. I know but that is like socialist and shit

[Freddie Stubbs]

15. Of course they should. But if they do not, is South Fulton obliged to provide fire service to

people outside of their city who are not paying for it?

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. If you are there YOU ACT

why do you think I said that Fulton FD will CANCEL a mutual aid agreement? Why do you think I said that the other places they get FD service will CANCEL mutual aid agreements?

It is not worth the liability.

I hope you realize the International Association asked for nothing less than a cert review. The mere cert review will be FAR MORE than the 75 bucks.

Oh and I also hope you realize that no firefighter from that department will be able to find work anywhere else for at least five years.

As to Obion they WILL HAVE some issues finding anybody else to contract with as well.

You will of course defend those consequences too.

Me the last one sure. They want to be on their own and too cheap to pay taxes... well then I hope they can fight fires on their own.

That is the competing vision they like. And they will blame everybody but themselves for it.

[Better Believe It]

47. Did they show up at the fire? If so, why not turn the hoses on?

[PVnRT]

42. That's not what the statement says

It puts the blame entirely on South Fulton for not providing services to everyone.

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. Cert review, re-read the statement, that is what they are

asking for.

They responded,

Cert review, it will be much more expensive than the 75 bucks for Fulton.

And if Fulton wants to PROTECT itself from THIS liability in the future, the ONLY way they can do it is... NOT to respond, hence cancelling the mutual aid agreement.

DO you get it now? Do you understand it now?

[PVnRT]

54. Yes, I've gotten it for a while, oh wise one

I have no problem with them cancelling the mutual aid contract. Of course, that makes me one of the evil libertarian Glen Beck lovers here now.

[nadinbrzezinski]

62. No what makes you in agreement with Beck is that

you seem to agree that they did the right thing.

Not by any professional code of ethics I am familiar with in the modern era. Though very much in line with the code of ethics in the 18th and 19th century.

[txaslftist]

69. Ermmm. The firefighters were government employees.

How does their misconduct have any bearing on libertarianism?

[TwilightGardener]

12. This is what I would expect, and restores my faith in public safety personnel.

When the shit hits the fan, you do the right thing. Everything else can be addressed at the appropriate place and time.

[TexasObserver]

73. Most understand that the fire fighters are right on this.

The tiny group of loud voices chanting "burn, baby, burn" is akin to the Tea Party phenomenon. Being loud, being repetitive, getting up in everyone's face - these are the activities of a very small but noisy group. There are a small numbers of "let it burn" advocates.

[K8-EEE]

13. They must be SOCIALISTS!!!

Glenn Beck says it's OK....

[Better Believe It]

16. Yes! They only put out fires of people who can produce their "professional left" membership cards

[Swede]

17. Does the IAFF extend it's benefits&union privileges to firefighters who don't pay dues to the IAFF?

Lots of differing opinions at link.

http://www.firehouse.com/news/top-headlines/iaff-condemns-tenn-depts-decision-not-fight-fire

[petronius]

20. I'm not even a firefighter, but I could really use a pension. In fact, I'd say

that I have a strong and compelling need for a pension...

[Better Believe It]

27. It can't represent and win public employee benefits for fire fighters it does not represent.

The IAFF can't represent and win benefits for fire fighters who don't wish to be represented by the IAFF.

Please post a link on the views of fire fighters who disagree with the fire fighters national association.

[PVnRT]

44. Yet the IAFF says that South Fulton should shoulder the burden for protecting the entire county

[Better Believe It]

46. The fire fighters were there. All they had to do was turn on their hoses. They were on the clock!

What would you have done?

Would you really have stood there and watch the home burn down while youre on the clock and collecting a paycheck?

If they are charging "fees for service" what's the money going for?

And if they are volunteers why did they not volunteer to turn on the hoses since they were at the fire?

[Hannah Bell]

48. south fulton's fire dept is mostly volunteer, sorry. even volunteer fire depts cost serious bucks.

one pumper truck = $600K.

here's the first comment on that statement:

Submitted by dtallmanpa on Thu, 10/07/2010 - 1:04pm.

I empathize with comments on here - both directions. First, I work for a career dept and 100% loyal to the IAFF. And, my career began in the Volunteers. I still work and serve with Volunteers. This case illustrates the problems with our economies across the nation; instead of the focus being on the failure of the county/city etc. to provice protection for it's citizens the anger is being directed a the very people who are sacrificing their lives and time to provide the service.

It takes money to run a volunteer FD just as a career dept. The problem is nobody wants to pay in either case until the flames are under their butts. Then they begin finger pointing. Subscription service is the founding history of the fire service - but, it too went away because truly, can $50 or $100 or what's the real amount the really pays for the service? Communities need to incorporate fire service in their tax base so all citizens receive the same level of service and I'm certain that's what the IAFF President is saying. Best to all of you!

[Better Believe It]

50. Well, they could have "volunteered" to turn on their hoses!

And "volunteered" to put out the fire.

No one can fire them!

[Hannah Bell]

61. i wonder if their insurance would have paid for their injuries or damages

to their equipment if they had.

[Better Believe It]

51. They didn't say that. They just commented on this specific incident.

And what would you have done had you been a fire fighter?

Stood around with your thumb up your you know what?

[PVnRT]

56. Let's say they fight the fire and bill the guy

Guy doesn't pay, you know, like he did the last time this happens. Then what? Who the hell is going to pay the subscription fee now, when they know someone will come out anyway? What would a super-awesome liberal like you do, then? Raise taxes on city residents? That's obviously the "fair" thing to do in DU-world.

"South Fulton wants to charge citizens outside the city for fire protection. We condemn South
Fulton’s ill-advised, unsafe policy."

So, if they're not saying that South Fulton should simply pay for it themselves, what are they saying? That the magical money fairies will rain operating funds on them? I'm curious here.

I guarentee you, you and all the other holier-than-thous at this place would be screaming BLOODY MURDER if they had billed the guy after the fact.

[Hannah Bell]

60. here's one of the responses to their editorial

Submitted by Raz on Wed, 10/06/2010 - 8:30pm.

While I am sure the Firefighters and the Chief would have like to put out the fire there are potential liability if they did. This department had a legal obligation to respond to calls within their jurisdiction, if they were fighting this fire and were unable to respond to a call in their jurisdiction they could be held responsible for the losses of a home or a fatality. As far as billing for the cost of fighting the fire good luck.

We responded to a structure fire in an unincorporated area of our county (with no hydrants), the house was valued at over a million dollars. In addition to our department three other departments assisted with Tenders. We saved over three quarters of the home and contents.

WHEN A BILL WAS GIVEN TO THE HOME OWNER HE REFUSED TO PAY SAYING IT WAS THE INSURANCE COMPANY'S RESPONSIBILITY. THE INSURANCE COMPANY REFUSED TO PAY SINCE WE HAD NO LEGAL OBLIGATION TO RESPOND. WE PUT OUR MEMBERS AT RISK AND DECREASED THE LEVEL OF RESPONSE AVAILABLE TO THE CITIZENS IN OUR COMMUNITY.

We have since shifted to a response for life safety not suppression. Keep in mind if everyone had this attitude there would be no departments to respond.

[Better Believe It]

65. 1. It was not an editorial. 2. It is not a response to the IAFF news release.

And if you had been there as a fire fighter you would have stood around and just watched it burn down?

[HuckleB]

18. 73...

[petronius]

22. Looks like you'll be able to stop doing that: "Final Word" has been declared!

:rofl:

[SargeUNN]

21. we can only hope it is

I am trying very hard to make this my final comment on the matter but the thing that gets me is the punishment was exteme and the guy has paid well in excess for not paying the fee. I think that is what is alarming and wonder why that doesn't scare the hell out of us.

[WeekendWarrior]

25. Thank you, IAFF

from those of us who are sane, here.

Irresponsible indeed.

[PVnRT]

45. I guess "responsible" means

that 2,500 people should pay the costs of providing fire services for 32,000 more who make, on average, more than them.

[Matariki]

55. No. The county should change their tax code to cover basic services.

[PVnRT]

57. They tried. It was voted down 19-1.

So....now what?

[Abq_Sarah]

29. They represent paid firefighters

Which are the minority of firefighters in the USA. http://www.usfa.dhs.gov/statistics/departments/index.shtm

Additionally, their position that South Fulton is wrong to charge the county for fire service is absurd.

The IAFF is opposed to volunteer firefighters and some locals have taken the step of prohibiting their members from being volunteer fire fighters when not on the clock. I understand they want all firefighters to be paid union members but large swaths of the country have counties with a population density under 10 and it's cost prohibitive to pay professional units to cover those areas.

[Pithlet]

32. You'd think they'd be on the side of these firefighters then.

It would make more sense. These firefighters wanted to be paid. That was the whole point. This county gets away with it? This one goes belly up. Bye bye paid fire departments.

[Abq_Sarah]

35. Cognitive dissonance

Strikes again.

[musiclawyer]

33. Volunteer firefighting will never go away in rural areas

Ever. Most small fire districts and companies already have professional chiefs , assistants etc. But the rest of the ranks are filled by volunteers. Indeed, these areas don't have the money to pay for full time professional staff, unless the people tax themselves ( alot) or the state legislatures change the laws so that revenues get earmarked to have full time pro staff even out in the sticks....... Don't hold your breathe. ..........But that's not the point. The point is that firefighters should never stand down when they are capable of responding, checklist be damned. That's the real sin here. The silver lining is that perhaps state legislatures will now pass laws that simply make response costs a lien on the property in the event of necessary response to non-paying parcel owner. That's how Code Enforcement works in most places.

[Pithlet]

40. In most instances I actually agree. I think it should almost never happen.

This was a rare instance where I think it was actually warranted. The situation was pushed by the county because they were relying on another municipality while at the same time refusing to pass a tax to fund them. I mean, who does that?? The city finally had to say "look, we'll show up, but you have to pay us first" This was after they were repeatedly showing up when many residents hadn't paid. I'm only backing this incident because it's an extreme situation. If they hadn't insisted on upfront payment, it's likely the city could lose their fire department.

[Pithlet]

41. In most instances I actually agree. I think it should almost never happen.

This was a rare instance where I think it was actually warranted. The situation was pushed by the county because they were relying on another municipality while at the same time refusing to pass a tax to fund them. I mean, who does that?? The city finally had to say "look, we'll show up, but you have to pay us first" This was after they were repeatedly showing up when many residents hadn't paid. I'm only backing this incident because it's an extreme situation. If they hadn't insisted on upfront payment, it's likely the city could lose their fire department.

[Better Believe It]

43. Do you have any credible links to back up your attack on the fire fighters organization?

Their members protect 85% of the nation's population and you belittle their efforts!

The IAFF is not opposed to people volunteering as fire fighters in areas that can't afford to pay professional fire fighters.

Perhaps you can provide us with credible links that prove your claim that they oppose volunteer fire fighters.

As you should know, the IAFF is a labor organization and as such can't and doesn't represent volunteer workers who are not paid for their work and have no one to bargain with collectively!

It seems to me that you're mainly attacking the fire fighters organization because it is a labor organization!

Do you really want to see a "union free" environment among fire fighters?


About the IAFF

The International Association of Fire Fighters, headquartered in Washington, DC, represents more than 298,000 full-time professional fire fighters and paramedics who protect 85 percent of the nation’s population. More than 3,200 affiliates and their members protect communities in every state in the United States and in Canada. The IAFF is one of the most active lobbying organizations in Washington; its Political Action Committee, FIREPAC, is among the top one percent of the more than 4,000 federal PACs in the country.

[Abq_Sarah]

59. Don't be absurd

I'm opposed to their policies because they consider VFD's "rival" organizations.

Here's your links:

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2002-02-27/news/0202270017_1_paid-firefighters-volunteer-fire-george-county

Here's congressional testimony regarding the Assistance To Firefighters Act that specifically mentions local unions that prohibit their members from volunteering:

http://www.nvfc.org/news/hn_2004_s2411.html

Here's an article about a Union member who was brought up on charges by his union for his volunteer efforts:

http://statter911.com/2010/03/03/firefighter-quits-union-after-charges-are-brought-over-volunteering-the-story-of-michael-schaffer-in-cherry-hill-new-jersey/

Tell me again how noble they are?

[kentauros]

34. The writer is certainly appropriately-named:

"Tim Burn"

:P

[hayu_lol]

58. In Obion County...

there are a total of three fire departments(VFD)who go with the yearly service fee for fire suppression. Of the three departments, only S Fulton, has and does, service the rural areas around their city boundries. The other two do not service rural areas. The tax base for all three such departments comes from the taxpayers of the city who voted to have fire departments. Most of the firemen volunteers are unpaid.

Obion County does not, and never has had, any fire department of any kind.

Union City, just a few miles from S Fulton, does not cover rural areas outside of it's own city lines. Does Not.

The people in the rural area around S Fulton have had service for years. The people of S Fulton have paid the full costs of this service and finally, due to increased costs, went for service fee provided service. They pay the costs of fighting fire in the rural area as well as within their own town limits(2500 people).

Long past time for the Obion County commissioners to raise a tax to support their own fire department. If they fail to, the fire department of S Fulton should stop making rural calls.

If you cannot understand this, I really feel sorry for you.

Pay for service or have no service...Obion County's choice.

[Hannah Bell]

53. I wonder if IAFF extends its benefits to firefighters who don't pay into the union?

i think they should, out of compassion.

[Better Believe It]

63. The benefits are paid by the employers that fire fighters have a contract with., not the IAFF

So the IAFF has no wage or other benefits it can give to fire fighters who are unpaid volunteers or who do not wish to be represented by the IAFF.

What makes you think that labor unions can "pay" non-union workers the benefits that union workers receive from employers under collective bargaining agreements?

Don't you really understand that those wages, pensions and other benefits are paid for by employers and not by labor unions?

Before a labor union can negotiate and win wage and other benefit improvements it must first win union recognition from the employer. And that can only happen if a majority of workers decide they want to become members of a labor union.

I thought everyone understood this.

Would you like some links to labor organizations so you can learn something about what labor unions are and what they do?

[struggle4progress]

64. Maybe IAFF could arrange for Obion county to fund uniform county-wide fire service

Or maybe IAFF could lobby the Tennessee legislature for changes to Title 6 of the Tennessee Statutes to allow cities to sue counties and county residents for fire service bills

[JVS]

66. I have two questions for him.

What are his thoughts on the "free-rider problem" which has been observed to adversely effect both the revenue of labor unions and the funding of public services?

Do IAFF locals ever go on strike?

[Better Believe It]

67. I've never heard of IAFF affiliated fire fighters going on strike.

But, you should write to the IAFF and ask those questions and any others you may have.

The main "volunteer" fire fighters organization, the National Volunteer Fire Council, (NVFC) points out on their website that most of their "volunteers" receive some financial compensation and "length of service award programs" (LOSAPs) pensions.

"Despite the job title, most volunteer fire fighters are paid something, but the remuneration is commonly minimal, and in many cases is also taxed."

http://www.nvfc.org/page/626/show_item/1231/News.htm

http://www.nvfc.org/page/626/show_item/1208/News.htm

[Better Believe It]

68. The Final Word: Real fire fighters rock who don't refuse to put out fires!

Is it OK if a doctor refuses to help a sick or injured person they see on the street because they don't have health insurance or cash up front?

Is it OK if a cop doesn't help a person in a car accident or respond to a 911 call because they haven't paid some parking tickets?

[joeybee12]

71. I'll take a firefighters word over that of a libertarian dickwad...KNR.

[TexasObserver]

72. “The decision ... to allow a family’s home to burn to the ground was incredibly irresponsible."

See? It's not that hard to figure this out.

Fire fighters gave a sane, rational, compassionate, responsible, adult opinion on this matter.

[lame54]

74. "Nice house. It would be a shame if something were to happen to it."

[Lucian]

75. This should be the last word.

It's the firefighter's union. And he's right.

I'm getting tired of these threads now. When is the next scandal coming?