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Grayson's 'Taliban Dan' Video Controversy'. Just how accurate is it?

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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-10 06:02 PM
Original message
Grayson's 'Taliban Dan' Video Controversy'. Just how accurate is it?
CNN's Anderson Cooper, among others in the MSM, have taken Rep. Alan Grayson to task over an ad aimed at his Republican opponent, Dan Webster, in which he calls Webster 'Taliban Dan'. The ad also appears to be unfairly taking a soundbite from a speech made by Webster, out of context, and playing it over and over again in what has been called a deceptive tactic.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_L2VbCtX0MBc/R5fdiubA4yI/AAAAAAAAAjc/-SrVN2E0o6E/s320/Alan+Grayson.jpg


You can see the Anderson Cooper/Alan Grayson interview on the Political Video page HERE

I, like many others who admire Rep. Grayson, had to admit that the ad did seem to be a bit deceptive, even while defending him against Anderson Cooper's attacks considering how the same media ignore the Rightwing Noise Machine's routine and far more egregious lies and smears against Democrats in general.

Still, it did seem that Grayson might have done himself some harm, especially if the charges in the ad could not be substantiated. I know I personally wondered why he would put something out there that he could not back up? He seems way too smart to do that.

So I did some research on Dan Webster since first viewing the ad, and all I can say is that having done so, the worst I could now say about Grayson's ad is that it relied too much on the assumption that people around the country had any idea of Dan Webster's Christian Fundamentalist background.

I did not know much about him, but now that I do, that ad and the title 'Taliban Dan' appear to be pretty appropriate, if a little hyperbolic. The only thing he should have left out was repeating the soundbite over and over without the context. The full speech appears to be unavailable now so Grayson cannot point to it to show why he claims the soundbite was not out of context.

Anyhow, here is an in-depth article from Alternet that details Dan Webster's history of associations with the very, very far Christian Right. It is well worth reading the full article if you admire Rep. Grayson because it clarifies the logic behind the ad and makes it a lot easier to defend the reasoning for it. I do think it was not effective, as it did not achieve its goal immediately. The message could have been far better presented, however, it is not the deceptive ad that Anderson Cooper tried to make it out to be. Either HE knew nothing of Webster's background, or did and doesn't care.



Alan Grayson’s GOP Opponent Directly Tied to Christian Group That Wants Permanent Subordination of Women

The “Taliban Dan” video flap

Daniel Webster’s association with Bill Gothard’s Institute For Basic Life Training has continued into the present, and a speech Webster made at a Nashville IBLP conference in 2009 has now become a source of controversy due to a new Alan Grayson campaign ad. Grayson is currently taking a media drubbing because of an ad campaign ad that calls Grayson’s political opponent, Republican Daniel Webster, “Taliban Dan.”

An assessment from Factcheck.org, a project of the Annenberg Public Policy Center, has charged that a new Grayson campaign ad attacking Grayson’s political opponent, Republican Daniel Webster, takes out of context statements Webster made in a speech at a 2009 conference of a religious organization called the “Institute of Basic Life Principles.”

But die-hard religious right researchers at ReligionDispatches.org are raising questions about Factcheck.org’s charge, and Religion Dispatches editor Sarah Posner calls out Factcheck.org in turn for its benign depiction of Bill Gothard’s IBLP, noting that “Factcheck.org fails… to describe what the IBLP is really about, describing it as a “non-denominational Christian organization that runs programs and training sessions.”

Many across the political spectrum appear appalled by the Grayson campaign’s “Taliban” label but Daniel Webster’s nearly three-decade long, intimate involvement with the Bill Gothard and the Institute For Basic Life Principles suggests that the label may be less than hyperbolic.


All emphasis mine.

Factcheck.org is a reliable source, but in this instance they too apparently, were not aware of Dan Webster's long history of associations with the rabidly rightwing Christian Fundamentalists whose beliefs, in fact, DO compare with those of the Taliban.

More from the Alternet article linked above:

So how close is Republican Congressional candidate Daniel Webster, running against Democratic Representative Alan Grayson for Florida’s 8th Congressional District, to evangelist Bill Gothard? That question is now politically salient because of Gothard’s participation in a radical Christian political movement called Christian Reconstructionism that seeks to impose stoning as a form of capital punishment for crimes including murder, adultery, “heresy,” and “witchcraft.” (for more on Christian Reconstructionism, see story appendix)

The answer to that question would be, very close. The first section of this story documents Daniel Webster’s relationship with Bill Gothard, so close that the religious leader could reasonably be described as a mentor or spiritual guru to the Republican congressional candidate. The second section describes Bill Gothard’s affinity for Christian Reconstructionist ideas.


I would sincerely suggest that anyone who is going to take Rep. Grayson to task for his characterization of Dan Webster in that video ad, first read this entire article, and do some other research on the man and his beliefs. It is truly scary especially since, and I still have to do more research on this, Webster actually does vote according to his beliefs.

Rep. Grayson is one of the best Progressive Democrats in the House. He produced an ad that was not well done in terms of succeeding in getting the message he wanted to get across to the people, leaving himself open to attacks while people like Cooper refused to discuss the actual charges made in the ad. However, now that I have read about this man, Webster, I do not believe the ad was deceptive, as Cooper tried to make out.

I think as more and more people begin to learn the truth about Dan Webster, any harm done by the ad among whose who matter, Grayson's supporters, will be diminished.



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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-10 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
1. The quotes were taken out of the context in which Webster used them in that instance.
But the ad accurately reflects his stated views.

Taliban Dan, indeed.
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-10 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. I didn't see the speech so I am not sure how out of context they
were. Apparently the speech is no longer available. But from what I did see, it does seem as though they were. Otoh, I would love to see the whole speech and I hope Grayson has learned to save material he uses to make a point as things can so easily be scrubbed from the internet.

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jbnow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-10 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. It was very out of context for THAT speech.
I saw it elsewhere. It was a talk at church where he said something like when his wife knew he was asked to give a talk (about marriage?) she said not to talk about the bible says wives have to submit to their husbands, he made a little joke about that. Then he said what he was going to talk about was loving your spouse. Something like that. It was a few days ago I saw it and I am paraphrasing on memory.

But at the time I was very sorry Grayson had done that and wondered if he even knew pr if he was just shown that part.
It was so out of context I hoped Grayson would apologize... even if he used that as a chance to point out how right wing crazy the guy is.

It might well represent the guys beliefs, maybe he even said it other times but on it's own it made Grayson look bad to anyone who listened to the sentences before and after the submit to your husband part. I don't want Grayson looking bad
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. Do you have a link to the speech? I have no been able to find it.
However, his mentor, Gothard, is a proponent of 'wives being submissive' to their husbands. Webster is very close to this 'preacher' and has been for many years. All of which is fine, if he didn't bring his religious beliefs into politics, which he apparently has.

The 1997 Sarasota Times Herald-Tribune story also provided details gleaned from a Gothard promotional video produced in 1984, about the time Daniel Webster became a follower of Gothard’s teaching which, as Alan Judd described, included the following recommendations:


Public education, which teaches children “how to commit suicide,” is the enemy of spirituality, so children should be educated at home, isolated from their peers.

And fathers must lead their families, while women must be “submissive” and “obedient” to their husbands.


There's a lot more about Gothard's and Websters ideas about women, divorce, and Webster's belief that women should not have a say in whether or not to carry a baby to term after being raped. He believes they should whether they want to or not.

However, as I said, I have not heard the speech and would very much like to. I do not think the ad was successful, and already said I did not think he should have used that sound-bite without being able to back it up. But I am far more informed about Webster today than I was yesterday and as a result, I think as I said, the ad while hyperbolic, was not deceptive in the picture it painted of Webster. It certainly could have been done better as far as getting the message across and without people who did not know Webster.
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tsuki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-10 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
2. Groups like factcheck are good, but they are as clueless about the
southern fundamentalist as they are about what an evangelist is.

Talk2action is a far better site.

I grew up in the deep south, and Taliban Dan is an apt description.
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-10 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. It's hard for anyone who didn't grow up there to understand
the fundamentalist mentality or even if they do, to think it still exists to the extent it does. Reading that article made me realize that there is a great deal I do not know even though I think of myself as pretty informed.

Grayson obviously is very familiar with this problem, and I guess he assumed we all were when he approved the ad.
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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-10 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. I agree with you about Talk2Action. I'm a regular reader
because in my opinion it's the best anti-theocracy website out there, although there are several good ones. But Factcheck.org was wrong in this instance, and Talk2Action was right. After learning more about Dan Webster and his male chauvinist pig guru Bill Gothard, I think Taliban Dan is a perfectly appropriate name for him.
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tsuki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-10 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Many reasonable people do not believe me when I tell them that
Fundies basically do not believe a woman has a soul in her own right. They think that I am crazy, but I swear that it is true.
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-10 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. That statement gave me chills 'fundies basically do not believe a
woman has a soul in her own right'. I might have thought you were crazy until I started reading about Dan Webster's mentors and some of the things they actually believe in and all I could think of was 'and we worry about the Taliban'. I hope never to meet any of these people, and definitely they should never be allowed near our government.
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-10 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. I was not aware of Talk2Action. But will bookmark it for future
reference. And I agree, nothing wrong with calling Webster Taliban Dan once you understand who is and how dangerous such to this democracy these fundies really are.
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-10 06:24 PM
Response to Original message
3. Taliban Dan's a delicate, sensitive soul, isn't he?
And isn't it odd how this "nontroversy" keeps getting re-hashed to score Grayson, but straightforward numbskullery by the likes of Jim DeMint about teachers or Sharron Angle about Sharia law, don't even mention a first report, let alone a follow up?
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 05:18 AM
Response to Reply #3
16. Anderson Cooper mentioned he had tried to interview
Republicans about their ads but none of them responded. He should have named them and shown their ads. He lets these cowards off the hook while going after Grayson who did have the guts to show up.

The media is scared of the cowards on the right. I don't know why.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-10 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
5. super post Sabrina!! thanks for all the info!
k and r.
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-10 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #5
13. You're welcome, things look different when you have
some facts. Too bad Anderson Cooper didn't bother to do some research before accusing Grayson of deception.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. the narrative was just too juicy for him to pass up -- i think tho, that the masses
will only remember the "Taliban Dan" part of the story, and ultimately it will work in Grayson's favor.
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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-10 07:40 PM
Response to Original message
8. The Alternet link is to an article by B.E. Wilson (Bruce Wilson),
Edited on Thu Oct-07-10 07:43 PM by Raksha
the same author who wrote an article about Taliban Dan and Bill Gothard on the anti-theocracy website Talk To Action. Link: http://www.talk2action.org/story/2010/10/4/123711/633
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-10 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Thanks for that link. The more I read about Webster the more
accurate Grayson's ad appears to be. I hope Anderson Cooper is doing some research on this and will issue an apology to Alan Graysong.

From your link:

Here's the context - last week, from the right over to the liberal John Stewart Show, media lambasted Webster's political opponent Alan Grayson, contending for a Congressional seat in Florida's 8th district, for taking Webster's words out of context, in a recent Grayson political attack ad.
But the words Grayson took "out of context" were from a speech Webster gave at a 2009 Nashville conference of an evangelist, Bill Gothard, who has been preaching a doctrine of female submission for over three decades, and Daniel Webster has been close to Bill Gothard for over three decades as well

As I've detailed in a recent Alternet story, Alan Grayson's GOP Opponent Directly Tied to Christian Group That Wants Permanent Subordination of Women, Daniel Webster's intimate, over three decade long involvement with evangelist Bill Gothard appears similar to a classic guru-disciple or mentor-pupil relationship and has included speaking multiple times at Gothard's conferences, traveling with Gothard to Korea in 1996, using Bill Gothard's material to homeschool his six children, making an instructional video for Gothard's Institute For Basic Life Principles, and, when Webster became speaker of the Florida legislature in 1996, hiring four of Gothard's IBLP employees as high-level Florida State House staffers.


Having read some of Gothard's 'philosophy' on women, I think anyone as closely associated with him as Dan Webster deserves the title 'Taliban Dan'.
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lame54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 10:29 AM
Response to Original message
18. the worst you can say about the ad is...
that it fed red meat to the media and the repugs (which are often one in the same)

it was a dumb mistake
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. Yes, and the media jumped all over it
And apparently none of them had done any homework on Webster either, or they had and decided not to talk about it.

But Grayson should have expected that and he must know that Democrats cannot do what Republicans do all the time. The media won't allow that.
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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
19. I always enjoy your posts. Thanks for your research on this 'controversy'.
:hi:
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. Thank you very much myrna minx
I always enjoy yours also :-)
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