Unbelievably, the Libertarians have won this Tennessee fireman deal

[divideandconquer]

The vast majority seem to blame the victims, the Fulton fireman and the mooching home owner, the county's libertarian fire department policy seems to get no blame.

[Hannah Bell]

1. the cities are now ganging up on the county pushing universal pay or we won't play.

so maybe not.

[seabeyond]

2. lets hope. but then, isnt that what all of our argument was about. so simple

yet so very fuckin hard

two choices with libetarian. raise the cities taxes to accomodate freebies. pull out.

[Hannah Bell]

4. i'm guessing the undeserved bad press (& public reaction, including death threats)

the cities got is making them join together in a harder line

[SoCalDem]

5. What I don't understand about this whole fiasco is this

Why can;t the assessor just mandate that the $75 be added to all "out-of-town" property taxes.. That way no one would "forget", and no one could "decline to pay" without also not paying their tax bill.

It could also be an included cost for insurance policies, but people could let their insurance lapse, so the issue could come up again.

By making it a part of the tax assessment, no one would be able to not pay...and then everyone would have fire protection.

People should not have the right to "opt out" of a public safety issue like fire & police protection.

[Cosmocat]

9. flood insurance ...

Our home sits halfway up a hill, it would be a Noah's Ark level of flood to hit our home, and like everyone else, we have to have flood insurance ...

[SoCalDem]

12. Our house in Kansas was across the street from where the flood plain ended

and our insurance was half what our across-the-street neighbor's was..

[ChiciB1]

22. Me Too! Of Course I DO Live In Florida, But Am Required To Carry Flood

insurance, even though when many, many years ago (when we had lots of rains, once) we had flooding all around me, and while we had standing water in our yard, there was NOTHING close to flooding going on here!

But, WE are in a FLOOD zone! Go figure! Flood insurance ISN'T cheap either!

[happyslug]

25. Damn Federal Mandates

Flood insurance is a Federally subsidized insurance. If you are in a Flood Plan, as designated by the Federal Government, you need flood insurance for any damage do to water (including water running down a hill) to whatever creek or river is in your area. If you do NOT have flood insurance and your house is damaged by water, your home owner insurance will NOT Cover it. Thus to get a loan on the property from any bank, the bank will demand both home owner and flood insurance on the property.

Furthermore, when Fannie Mae was set up in the 1930s it was a federally charter and federally owned corporations (It was sold off in the late 1960s to help pay for the Vietnam war, the office line was to better balance the budget, but the budget was imbalanced do to the war in Vietnam). Fannie Mae, before it would buy mortgages from banks that had formed the mortgaged, demanded that the mortgages contain certain clauses, no clauses Fannie Mae would NOT re-buy the loan. Do to these requirements most mortgages terms are NOT negotiable (Technically such terms still are negotiable, but the bank wants to re-sell the mortgages to Fannie Mae and thus will NOT accept any other clauses then what is in a Standard Mortgage).

Thus to re-sell the mortgage, the mortgage must have home and flood insurance (in those areas where designated Flood areas). No home owner insurance, and no flood insurance on a home a a "flood plain" No one will give you a mortgage on the property. Technically it is legal to get a mortgage, but no one will give mortgage without those clauses.

Thus Flood Insurance is a Federal mandate in all but name. got Fannie Maw was, till the late 1960s, a Federal program, and after the 1960s a company close to the Federal Government. Thus for all practical purposes Flood Insurance is a federal mandate.

[seabeyond]

13. the county voted that down. they should not be able to opt out but county and citizens

have chosen it.

the municipals would like the county to do just that. would not even have to be 75. .13 per $1,000 property. a very small amount of money. the council and the citizens though chose to set municipal FD as the bad guy and to blame for their "right" to opt out

[tammywammy]

21. A city cannot impose taxes on people that don't live within city limits

The county has voted against implementing an increase to their property taxes to fund a fire dept.

[happyslug]

27. You can NOT mandate a tax on property NOT under your jurisdiction.

Thus you can not have "Out of Town Property taxes", by definition the property is NOT under the jurisdiction of the town and thus can not be taxed by the town. Now the County could mandate the fee as a $75 fire protection tax, and then give it to the towns (The towns in turn can reduce their own taxes by the same amount do to the affect that the city property will also be paying that tax, most will not, $75 a year is NOT that much and can use the $75 for some other city program).

On the other hand a good way to get county wide fire coverage, the city provides the fire departments and the county just collects the taxes and gives the money to the fire departments. It is a overall win-win situation, but takes a good set of politicians to get the people behind the idea.

[whyverne]

3. I don't find it libertarian at all. I think it's authoritarian.

Follow the rules or else. Are your Papers in order? That's what scares me.

But I'm not too bright, I've never figured out how insurance isn't socialism.

[seabeyond]

14. authoritarian would demand pay. libertarian allows option to pay or not. nt

[happyslug]

31. Being Human is Socialism

The key to being Human is living and working with others for the common good. That is the definition of Socialism. All Societies have, to a degree, be Socialist. One of the most Socialist of organizations is the Military (Why would someone fight and if he dies, his wife and children would be left to die in the streets? That punishment is to harsh but that is what Capitalism demand, survival of the fittest, the problem is Armies are all Socialist, they know no one will fight, even for cash, if their family are destitute upon their deaths, but people will fight if they know they family will be taken care of by society as a whole, thus all armies are socialist in nature).

On the other hand Capitalism provides a way for individuals to work within a society for their own good and as a whole makes society richer by watching for their own best interests. This leads to the Capitalist-Socialist dilemma of all human societies, how much socialism and how much capitalism is good. This varies over time but is a constant dilemma.

A good way to look at this is the following hypothetical situation. Three groups of people have to cross an area of jungle broken by five rivers no one can swim across. The Socialist Group, walking in lock step at the pace of the slowest member, gets to the First River AFTER the 100$ Capitalist Group and the Mixed Capitalist-Socialist Group, but starts building whatever is needed to cross the river, be it a bridge, a boat etc. The Mixed group shortly thereafter does the same for the building of such boat, Bridge requires team work. The Capitalist group, not having any team work, never builds the bridge or the boat.

The Socialist Group and the Mixed group gets across the first river, but the Capitalist Group, breaking up after crossing the river gets to the next river first. The socialist group is second. This time the Mixed group, having learn this is something they must do as a team, organize themselves quickly and cross the River, The Socialist group starts building as soon as they get to the river, but gets to the river after the Mixed group.

The Socialist group has a problem, at various times, depending on the terrain, various members of the group are the slowest member. Thus as the terrain varies, they always go the pace of their slowest member. The mixed group, after breaking up after crossing the river, each member goes at their own pace, some faster then others depending on the terrain. This pace varies on each person, but no one is slowed by the pace of another. Thus as a whole over the land, the mixed group goes faster then the Socialist Group, gets to the river faster, but is slower at building the bridge.

At the end of the journey, the Mixed group wins the race. It out paces the Socialist Group in the areas where individual efforts are best, but while slower then the socialist group at starting to build and building the bridge/boat (or what ever team effort that is needed), the fact that they get to each river sooner wins out over the Socialists.

As to the true Capitalists, they never get across the first River let alone the next four so hopelessly left behind, thus humans rejected Capitalism as we became members of larger groups, we value the team as much as the Individual and that is the heart of being Socialist.

My point is the best solution is a mixed Capitalist-Socialist group. Socialist when team work is needed, and Capitalist when it is not. Insurance is one of the way we as humans perform this socialist/Team work situation. We spread out the risk and then demand that the person handling that spread (The Insurance company) makes effort to make sure the risk in minimal. Thus insurance is Socialism, for Insurance is being human and to be human is to value team work and if you value team work you are a Socialist.

[Gman]

6. I don't think it changes any current arrangements

where liens and other things are used to assure payment of these required fees.

[Hannah Bell]

7. there's no such current arrangement.

more than half the bills go unpaid.

[divideandconquer]

8. It seems liberals just can't frame arguments, this should have been a slam dunk

Instead this unfortunate fire department has been excoriated. We mauled our own dog in the fight. Coming to your neighborhood, more libertarian solutions.

[Pithlet]

11. I know. It's weird.

I think the argument can be framed just fine, but the mob mentality just takes over, and nothing gets through. It's been patiently explained over and over in multiple threads. No doing. Of course, outside of DU there's the issue with our lovely media.

[uncommon]

16. Don't they then go through small claims and end up getting judgments against

the non-payers and have liens put on their property?

That's how it should work anyway. Although I've been on your side in these discussions - there was a system in place and this homeowner chose not to participate.

[seabeyond]

18. i read 75%-85% of bills were not paid. the amount of time and cost to go to court for these

and try to get the amount of money, ends up costing everyone more. and even taking someone to court and ruled in your favor is far from getting payment. i hear fire cant put lien. would be something we have to know one way or another.

having owned a business and working in acounting forever and for major corp (coca cola) it is more cost effecient to write overdue off. and that is not having 75%-85% of receivable not being paid.

if it was so easy to collect the money, if it was cost effective to collect money, it would have worked and would continue a good decade ago, when they tried that approach. or even now, as they get roasted by the nation.

i have yet to hear any of the municipals say that is a reasonable approach.

5 out of the 8 municipals dont charge a subscribe. the charge fee for making a call. so many didnt pay, they absorb into their municipal accounting.

[COLGATE4]

43. You're absolutely right. First of all, getting a judgment against

a party in a situation like this is pretty hard to do. Then the really hard part begins - trying to collect. The only sane thing the Town can do with deadbeats is to write them off.

[SOS]

48. Re: half the bills go unpaid

This figure represents all fires in Obion County.
It has nothing to do with the subscription service in South Fulton, Union City and Kenton.
All municipal FDs in Obion County charge $500 to the homeowner (or insurance company) for a call to a fire.
It is 50% of these fees which are uncollected.

Even the municipal FDs in the five communities (Hornbeak, Obion, Rives, Samburg and Troy) which do not have
subscription service and respond without regard to ability to pay, charge the $500 fee.

It is this $500 charge that is 50% unpaid.

Saying that "half the bills go unpaid" implies that the people who didn't pay the subscription fee are somehow "freeloaders".
That is incorrect.
The 50% unpaid $500 fee applies to all departments, with or without subscription.

[seabeyond]

49. i read odion plan. it is worse. 50% are not subscribed. 75%-85% uncollected

of that $500 fee. i had read it was ALL 8 municipal that charged the $500 for a call, but it was not real clear to me, so i only stated the 5 municipals that does not have subscibe and pure absorb these cost into their municipal budget.

so reality it is much worse with 75%-85% not collectable

[glowing]

10. I believe they will have to take the "hard" line.. They are more than likely facing a law suit.

[seabeyond]

15. per county (who has the authority) voting in opt out/in, i dont see how there can be a law suit.

they set this up. owners made the choice. FD hands are tied.

i dont think there is any grounds for lawsuit

[msanthrope]

26. Who would be suing whom? n/t

[stray cat]

17. Unions should help nonunion workers, hospitals should help the uninsured

You and I need to pay for anyone who doesn't pay

[seabeyond]

19. we are already paying for a whole lot of people that can afford to pay themselves adn stray cat....

i dont know about you, but i am hurting. we have our wealthy not paying. our corps not paying. now our middle class not paying.

i cannot shoulder all of the nation, myself.

[ChiciB1]

23. My Daughter Is A Nurse & She Told Me That As A Licensed Nurse In This

state, she is OBLIGATED to help NO MATTER WHAT! She has no choice, but of course she would do her job because that's what nurses do.

As each passing day goes by, I become more and more MOROSE! I used to use the word Depressed, but it's getting more DIRE than I had ever thought it ever could. I have truly tried to to keep myself occupied in other ways, but LIFE creeps in and I just feel HELPLESS in this BIG, BIG world.

I think I understand suicide so much better now, NOT THAT I find that as a option myself, so don't get me wrong. Even though we don't have much, we have still been able to keep our head above water and are able to pay our bills by cutting back and doing nothing that costs any extra money! If it ain't FREE, we don't do it!

This is what this country has become and it's a country I DON'T recognize anymore!

[seabeyond]

24. hospital will transfer nonpay loss to pay customer. so, significantly RAISE city taxes to cover

the nonpaying county?

[sabrina 1]

42. And the cost of rebuilding this house will be passed to other

Insurance customers' premiums. Had they put out the fire, that cost would have been less.

The problem is this system doesn't work. If so many people did not pay, then it is a failed system. But they should have known that. Libertarians swear, and other rightwingers, that we do not need any public services because that is socialism. If people want services, they should pay for them and if someone is too poor to do so, charity will take care of it.

Well, here is a perfect example of why that system doesn't work. Now, maybe that district can give some thought to doing what most small, rural dists. do, start a Volunteer FD of their own, then they can go help out other dists, who in turn, will gladly come to help them when they need it. People working together, it works all across the country. They did not want a Volunteer Dept. either. Now maybe they will see the light and forget those failed Libertarian ideas as the rest of the country has.

[seabeyond]

46. and if they have their own VFD they will receive federal funds from two places they dont receive

now that could go to fire and cost even less for everyone.

another solution

i like

[HuckleB]

20. 85...

[TexasObserver]

28. The overwhelming opinion is that the fire department should have put the fire out.

Contrary to what you have stated, the condemnation of the policy of letting it burn is almost unanimous. There might be 15% who think otherwise, or about the same percentage as support the Tea Party.

The bad policy rests with the city manager.

[hayu_lol]

29. TexasObserver, the fire department answered the call from...

the nearest neighbor who was a subscriber. When the fire crossed the property line, the FD put it out to protect their SUBSCRIBER. Don't know why many don't get the primary responsibility of this VFD...their subscriber.

A further bit surfaced late yesterday: Obion County issued a high wind warning that day followed by a DO-NOT-BURN-TRASH order.

[TexasObserver]

30. hayu_lol, When you have something new, please reply.

Until then, I don't need to read your post wherein you repeat what you've said 100 times already.

Thanks.

[Bunny]

35. I've read each and every one of the 4,000 DU threads on this subject

and all I can say is you should really take your own advice and stop posting until you can say something original. You have been a broken record for several days now over this issue, yet you order hayu_lol to stop posting??? That's pretty fucking funny...

[TexasObserver]

38. And yet, you're still on the Glenn Beck side of the issue.

[cemaphonic]

44. Most of DU "was on Pat Buchanan's side" wrt the Iraq War.

Stopped clock and all that. One of the many reasons that ad hominem arguments are a bad idea.

Besides, Beck's position, from what I can tell is that the homeowner bears the full responsibility of the situation for not paying the fee. I haven't seen any indication that he thinks that that the subscription model is a bad idea in principle. Most of us defending the FD think that the county needs to find a way to ensure universal coverage for its citizens, instead of the current broken system.

[seabeyond]

47. his reasoning teabagger independence. our reasoning liberal, tax all

collective pot, all get service.

[whistler162]

45. beck = broken clock

right twice a day!

[cemaphonic]

32. No good deed goes unpunished, I suppose.

I swear, this whole thing is like a codependent-enabler relationship writ large. The FD and the city that funds it risk their lives and spend their resources for decades to help out their neighbors that can't seem to get their act together enough to create their own fire department (or at least adequately contribute to the S Fulton one). Then, when they decide that they can't really afford to do that anymore, especially on the behalf of someone who already stiffed them on a freebie, they're a bunch of heartless villains who all but started the fire themselves.

Part of it is the simplistic and sensationalist reporting though. Without understanding the history and relationship of the two communities involved, the reasoning of the FD can be hard to understand, especially for people (like me) who have always lived in areas with universal fire protection. On just about every comments page of news sites that have reported on this, there is a comment to the effect of "what are his taxes paying for?" Also, lots of comments that the FD should have put out the fire and billed later, since few news sources have reported that the FD has been doing exactly this for years, and hasn't been able to get people to actually pay up afterward. But all these details get left out in favor of HOUSE BURNS DOWN OVER $75 and OH, THE POOR DOGGIES.

[Bunny]

34. People who are too simple-minded to bother studying the situation

and understanding what is really going on here are reacting out of emotion and fear. It's probably a good thing that none of them are involved in municipal government - I think the complexities of such would overwhelm them.

[seabeyond]

36. and if you are capable of doing just that, you are willing to be hateful adn ugly to a dying girl

you are right on bunny. it is that difference. the ability to see beyond the man whose house burned and the many true victims in this situation. the people that are harmed and hurt... adn they had NO power. powerless. the real victim

the owner had power. he could buy subscribe or not

the others, municipals, neighbors, animals are the victims

a poster on the thread of the dying girl said... anyone who feel like you are capable of bullying a dying child and her family.

i dont know that i have been so mad on du.

[Pithlet]

40. Let us add up the ways we've been villified, shall we?

We're no better than Freepers. We're cruel! We're heartless! They can't believe we're on DU! We're just like Beck. We're Ayn Randian. I'm just like Sharon Angle. We're on the side of the American Family Association. Jesus wouldn't approve. Martin Luther King is frowning down at us from on high. And my personal favorite, we'd torment a dying child. Isn't it grand?

[seabeyond]

41. then... lecture on their compassion, insightfulness, and open mindedness. nt

[Dash87]

33. The fact that pay-for-fire department is even existing in some areas.

Is a failure of our government, imo.

♥

[TheKentuckian]

37. I demand the entire Libertarian county be allowed to burn until they make a solution

they can live with.

I don't want proper socialist fire departments bailing out those with protection money under any circumstances. Let the rich burn with the poor, the liberal with libertarian, the wise and the foolish till the silly bastards are forced to fund their service so they can serve their population and render aid to their neighbors when they have a time of need.

The FD should have never accepted their batshit subscription plan and by doing so deserve a part of the heat for this vile clusterfuck for enabling Randroid Heights to play this absurd Reich wing fantasy.

As soon as some little blond rich babies burn up then socialism will come back in style.

[Statistical]

39. The COUNTY HAS NO FIRE DEPT.

The town has a fire dept supported by socialist taxes.

It offers coverage to those in the county without coverage. If it were for the towns nobody in the county would have ANY fire dept coverage.