1 Ohio school, 4 bullied teens dead at own hand

[marmar]

MENTOR, Ohio — Sladjana Vidovic's body lay in an open casket, dressed in the sparkly pink dress she had planned to wear to the prom. Days earlier, she had tied one end of a rope around her neck and the other around a bed post before jumping out her bedroom window.

The 16-year-old's last words, scribbled in English and her native Croatian, told of her daily torment at Mentor High School, where students mocked her accent, taunted her with insults like "Slutty Jana" and threw food at her.

It was the fourth time in little more than two years that a bullied high school student in this small Cleveland suburb on Lake Erie died at his or her own hand — three suicides, one overdose of antidepressants. One was bullied for being gay, another for having a learning disability, another for being a boy who happened to like wearing pink.

Now two families — including the Vidovics — are suing the school district, claiming their children were bullied to death and the school did nothing to stop it. The lawsuits come after a national spate of high-profile suicides by gay teens and others, and during a time of national soul-searching about what can be done to stop it. ............(more)

The complete piece is at: http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-national/20101008/US.Bullying.One.Town/

[xchrom]

1. recommend

[raccoon]

2. Off to Greatest with you. nt

[SpiralHawk]

3. Four dead in O-hi-o

Four dead in O-hi-o.

[Scuba]

4. I hope school administraters everwhere take heed. n/t

[Posteritatis]

67. I think we all know they won't. (nt)

[Ken Burch]

101. Of course not. The administrators don't give a shit.

If anything, they secretly LIKE the existence of the bullying culture because it gets kids used to a life of obedience to the strong and the ruthless. In other words, it prepares them for what Reader's Digest calls "Life In These United States".

To fight against bully culture, you have to resist most if not all of the dominant values of this society. And no school district anywhere is prepared to do that.

[ck4829]

5. Bullying a child to death over an accent? What is wrong with these kids?

K&R

[slackmaster]

12. What's wrong is that their self-esteem is so low, the bullies get to them

Kids need to be taught to love themselves, and to fight back.

[Warpy]

19. Their self esteem can be pretty high before the bullying starts

Once it starts, forget it. There's no self esteem left and then they kill themselves.

All it takes is something to make a kid stand out, even slightly, and the bullies zero in on him or her.

Focus on the bullies, not on their victims. Those are the kids who need to be kicked out of school and put into treatment. The only way to stop bullying is to stop the bullies.

[slackmaster]

21. I had to start wearing glasses at age 10. I know a lot about "standing out" and being targeted.

:hi:

[femrap]

35. I'm surprised someone

hasn't gone 'columbine' at this school. I lived in NE Ohio when I was a senior in high school...one of the worst years of my life. There's something about that area...people get a real kick out of being nasty and mean to others. I mean it was their idea of FUN...it was entertainment to them.

That was my experience and I know there are good people in NE Ohio, but they let the bullies run wild. I'm sure the parents are bullies as well....well, at least one of the parents.

RIP. May the bullies know pain that is a zillion times worse than what you four endured.

[1monster]

64. And that was what the school administration alledged would happen when my

son was shoved into the path of an oncoming car in our neighborhood... not anywhere within the school's authority. "He might get a fellow student to bring a gun to him at the bus stop." I was told.......

My son had/has no violent tendencies at all and never had and they knew it. But he fit the profile in that he was small and had been bullied for a long time.

Not all school officials are uncaring jerks. In another school, a student came up to him and said, "Why don't you make the world a better place and just kill yourself?"

After hearing about that, I went to one of the school guidence counselors and told him I was not seeking vengence or punishment, I just wanted the torment of my son stopped. A few days later, my son came home and said that the young man who had told my son to kill himself came up to him and apologised for saying it. And while the two of them never became close friends, they did become friendly.

The guidence counselor was able, somehow, to make the young man understand the damage he was causing with such behavior and it stopped him cold. Some kids are mean, hateful bullies who don't care. Other kids just follow the crowd without ever thinking about what devastation is being wreaked on the victim.

Some bullies are incorrigible and need to be separated from the general school population. Others are just thoughtless and can be taught better.

[femrap]

72. I'm so glad

I'm old. I went to 5 different schools (3 different high schools) and never saw bullying. Getting expelled or suspended was NOT what one wanted. There was a respect or fear of the principal. The worst we had was a fight between 2 dudes in the parking lot after school...and that was broken up pretty quickly.

I'm sorry your son had to endure that. Where is all this cruelty coming from?

[knitter4democracy]

98. I taught there for three years. I agree with you.

Some of the most difficult students I've ever dealt with and some of the worst bullying I have ever seen took place there. I wasn't surprised when I saw it was Mentor.

[femrap]

144. I'm glad you got out.

Was the principal a bully? Or simply scared of the bullies? Were the parents bullies as well?

I feel so sorry for the kids growing up today. It's much crueler than in my day. I was a fat kid and got my fair share of 'fatso.' But in my mind, I felt that if my feelings were hurt, I could hurt their shins. I wouldn't take it. And the 'fatso' diminished.

[Enthusiast]

131. There are good people in

NE Ohio and there are bullies everywhere, in every corner of every state. School administrators and teachers can rein this in, if there is a will to do so.

[femrap]

143. I believe I stated that

exact point in my post.

However, I do believe there are degrees of bullying....I'd bet there are fewer cases in say, northern CA as opposed to NE Ohio.

And now we have congressional candidates from Ohio playing 'Nazis.'

The world has changed...people are following the example of W. He never apologized. He never admitted he was wrong. He acted like he was stupid. He spoke like an illiterate.

Being intelligent today in Ohio...all I get is 'Who the hell do you think you are?' Stupid is good. The world is upside down.

[Enthusiast]

147. "The world is upside down."

Since the day of the Bush v Gore decision the country has never been the same. They have ruined our beautiful country. And they have plans to finish it off.

[femrap]

149. Yep....

it's Third World America. It is so sad to me that I hope Mother Nature beats them to it....at least they would have to suffer along with the rest of us.

It feels as if we are reaching some sort of crescendo of anger. loss of faith, and ignorance.

[Enthusiast]

150. Maybe someone in 'their' ranks

feel if our anger and ignorance reach a high enough level they can goose step us off into a quest for world conquest. I do wonder sometimes.

[femrap]

152. I've read about

TPTB....they're really not in it just for the money (since they've never had to work for it). What they get off on is Social Control...the ability to manipulate people. As I look around, I wouldn't be surprised to see a WW3 and TPTB make money selling weapons to both sides.

Sometimes I think we are close to a false flag or even a true flag....I can't tell anymore.

But I do know that war is a racket.

I'd prefer if Mother Nature stepped in and shook the world up.

[MedicalAdmin]

42. Yes, stop the bullies but part of that is teaching the victims ...

how to fight back and fight back hard.

I think that mobilizing the school community is key. If anytime a bully bullies, they know that someone is going to speak up then they will stop. Keep in mind that bullying, like abuse, is a learned behavior. Often these kids who bully have been the subject of abuse themselves. Having said that my sympathies go with the kids who have been bullies. (because there are kids who have been abused and bullied and who choose NOT to bully others - once you cross that line then you should pay the price)

[1monster]

69. How naive. Victims who fight back are likely to get into serious trouble themselves.

If a student is punched and raises his/her arms, even just to protect him/herself, it can be considered participating in or reciprocal violence... and they will be suspended at the least. The schools have the option, which is often used, to press charges. I know of a case where there was a shoving match. The kid who was being verbally tormented got three months in jail. The guy who was doing the tormenting got five days suspension.

And the kid who was sent to jail -- his father had died three days before. He was, understandably, an emotional mess.

[slackmaster]

74. That is much more true now than it was in the early 1970s

A minor could get away with a lot of things then that would be likely to bring criminal charges now.

My "Revenge of the Nerds" buddies and I understood the importance of not leaving traceable evidence.

[Ken Burch]

108. That means teaching them to give the bullies what they want

In part, bullies bully because they want to provoke other kids into violence, just to prove that everyone, deep down, is as ugly inside as they are.

On one level, if you teach a kid to fight back physically, you teach that kid to lower her or himself to the bully's level. Which helps keep the cycle going.

[Moonbat2]

127. Absolutely

never fight back
never stand up for yourself
never argue
never make eye contact
If someone hits you roll into a ball and cower
Dont even vote(it may anger the other side)
Don't go for that promotion at work(someone else may want it)
THESE ARE THE KEYS TO A HAPPY LIFE
I hope my posting this did not anger anyone one x(

[Ken Burch]

130. Dude...what the hell?

How did you go from my opposition to a violent response to saying nobody should stand up for themselves in any way at all?

And..."don't even vote"?

I wasn't advocating cowardice.

Or a life based on surrender.

Nothing in my post justified your response.

[Wednesdays]

105. Amen.

I'm tired of hearing about approaches to bullying that calls for the VICTIM to change his behavior. :banghead:

[Ken Burch]

107. +20 bazillion!!!!!

Nothing EVER justifies bullying.

[Cid_B]

118. That doesn't really translate to real life...

... Whats the old adage? The only person that I can control is myself.

[Warpy]

139. Unless you're 11 years old and just different enough to be a target

even when that difference is something that has gotten you high praise before. Once a bully singles you out, it's all over.

While your adage might make sense for adults, it's a meaningless bromide to kids, especially kids being tortured by some of their peers while the rest look on.

That's why it's necessary for adults to step in and separate the bullies.

[Dash87]

27. You can only fight back so much.

What if there are dozens of bullies, in groups, and the name-calling is for years? Nobody can sanely get through that. :(

♥

[slackmaster]

29. The forum rules don't allow me to post what my teenage self would have done in that situation

:hi:

[MedicalAdmin]

43. I was bullied. I finally snapped.

It was systemic and it lasted for years. Finally some bad shit had been happening at home (serious illness in the family) and I had had enough.

I told them to stop. I practically begged them. And then ... I warned them and their response was "waddayagonnadoaboutit?" I punched a door off a locker and proceeded to beat the shit out of them with the metal door. The principal finally pulled me off. I was suspended, but then so were they. When we came back EVERYONE gave me a wide birth.

I'm not saying this was rational or that it would work for anyone else, but sometimes drawing a line in the sand and then sticking to it is a good way to go.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

46. "I'm not saying this was rational or that it would work for anyone else"

You aren't? Well, I am.

It is rational and it can work for lots of other people.

[Nay]

88. It is rational, and it worked for my son 15 years ago. It's too bad

it had to come to that -- talking with the school and the bully's parents only made it worse -- but that's what it took.

[SmileyRose]

61. Worked for my dad 70 years ago.

As told to me by my Dad's brother..... He said couple of kids were merciless all through grade school, finally Dad had enough, knocked out the head bully with one punch behind someone's barn. That was the end of the bullying. My uncle said Dad never had fisticuffs with anyone before or since then.

[Joe Bacon]

87. I know all about being bullied...

It was bad enough in the 3rd grade, my hair was styled as an Afro. Still remember when my snide sleazy 3rd grade teacher decided to name me "N" head. And she encouraged everyone in my class to call me "N" head too. Christ, I hated that goddamn witch!

From 7th to 12th grade, my life was hell in high school. Constantly bullied and the ringleaders were a pair of teachers, my 8th grade algebra teacher and the school football coach. Both of them encouraged the chosen ones (the jocks, since all my high school cared about was the football team) to beat me as much as they could. I still remember when that scumbag 8th grade algebra teacher saw me walking down the hall, he yelled "Get that little bastard" to his jock boys. And the teacher LAUGHED as I was being beaten by half a dozen punks. The only refuge I had was chess at home reading Soviet chess magazines and Chess informants, but the chess club sponsor forbade me from joining the chess club because I "wasn't good enough" even though I could play hundreds of games from theory and quote Soviet chess analysis. Didn't matter. I wasn't good enough. Still remember one time when I was discussing Soviet analysis with one of the boys in the chess club. I didn't realize the football coach was behind me until he yelled "Bacon is a faggot" and his punk football boys picked that up and yelled "faggot" at me. When I got to the room for the next class, the teacher looked at me, she heard what those assholes said. She decided to join in saying "Well, the faggot's here". I hated that place. It was a goddamn urinal masquerading as a garden.

The happiest day of my life was the moment I walked out of that fucking jail for the last time. I have no love for the public school system and I especially hold teachers in utter contempt.

Every time I get my ballot for the upcoming election, there are school bonds issues on the ballot. Just looking at them triggers cold sweats, panic attacks and PTSD. There have been times I've been at the polling place marking my ballot and coming to those fucking school bond questions, I go into a full blown panic attack. I have to turn my back and recompose myself for a few minutes until I have the ability to pick up the marker and punch the NO by those questions.

School scarred me for life. That's why I never had children because I couldn't handle sending them to the same kind of fucking torture chamber I was imprisoned in for years.

Even now, I have a facebook page and some of the assholes who made my life a living hell want to friend me. I've rejected their requests and sent a nice reply that tears another asshole out of those punks. Sorry, but when you were endlessly tortured, there is no way you can even think of forgetting what they did. Yet there are those who say out of ignorance, "Get over it"...

But the scars never heal.

[Enthusiast]

132. Sorry you had to endure that.......torture.

This is why I say torture is the greatest crime. Honestly, you have my heartfelt sympathy. I have witnessed similar abuse from teachers and coaches in my day. And I agree with you, there is no getting over it.

[Joe Bacon]

145. And it was the Union President who led the bullying!

That was the thing that really got to me. The asshole 8th grade algebra teacher who enjoyed torturing me was the same one who would boast in front of TV cameras and radio microphones that he was fighting for the kids.

Still remember my friend who was tortured by that rat bastard even more than me. He had a day where the football coach would walk into his classes and ridicule him for being a "pussy". Every class Nick went to that day, there was that coach. And Coach's jockeys joined in the name calling and beating him. Nick couldn't take any more. At the end of the school day, Nick walked to the bridge, jumped into the river and killed himself. He left a suicide note in his gymbag saying he couldn't take any more. Didn't bother the coach one bit. But it sure bothered Nick's dad. His dad never got over his son's murder. Nick's dad abandoned his shop and became a recluse for the rest of his life. Wouldn't set foot outside his home for any reason. And what did the teachers and administrators do when they heard about what Nick wrote?

Nothing. They all shut up and closed ranks.

[Enthusiast]

148. That coach

probably thought calling Nick out in front of the class would toughen him up, or some such nonsense. What an idiot! You call it murder and I agree.

[LanternWaste]

80. Or simply not to bully

"Kids need to be taught to love themselves, and to fight back..."

Or simply not to bully or be abusive. Weakness and meekness are not absolute wrongs which need to rectified, bullying on the other hand, is.

[TheMadMonk]

126. Not enough. Bullies need to learn the lesson that there is ALWAYS someone...

...or something, big enough and tough enough to take them out in interesting and both physically and emotionally painful ways. Applied early enough these lessons don't even have to leave conscious scars. The humiliation of three adults wetting themselves laughing at your headbutting the cupboad a few milliseconds after (fresh from the bath) you bend over to pick up a dropped toy in front of the oven, very, very effectively reinforces the lesson of HOT.

When I grew up, we had "The Town Bully", the one kid at school you couldn't make an impression on with an axe. And yes it's true that no amount of arse kicking would modify their behaviour, but at least they were known quantities, good for bruises, contusions and possibly the odd broken bone. And ready to "wear it" if a victim (or acceptable champion) managed to set them on their arse.

Bullies today, run in packs like jackals. They slash with teeth that can't be seen and leave wounds that can fester for a lifetime. And because they work in packs "blood in the water" can trigger a frenzy where each trys to best the last attack on a victim.

Dr Spock (as he even acknowledged in his latter years) has a lot to answer for. Yes, his methods, and modern refinements do work, for those with the INTELLIGENCE AND DILLIGENCE to make them work. Just making "Super Nanny" methods work as a parent takes near average or better quantities of BOTH qualities. As a teacher it takes exceptional amounts to get someone able to succeed in the face of parents who aren't even on the same planet, let alone page and the truth is, there are not enough people on the planet with such qualities to put one in every classroom. Truly great teachers (the ones Hollywood makes movies about) are very few and far between. If they weren't Hollywood wouldn't make the movies.

(A small asside here, or perhaps a major epiphany: A truly smart society would draft those bloody exceptional teacher, pay them a kings ransom and put them to work in the juvenile prison (not justice) system.)

And you don't think the little bastards can't figure it out for themselves when we try to play mind games with them and fail? They see (in a general sense) what we were trying to do and try it out for themselves on their peers, and when they do it as packs, crudity of technique is more than compensated for by numbers and sheer relenlessness.


Yes physical violence is crude and primitive. However it has one ultimately redeming factor. It bloody well works. And whether we like it or not, the truth is physical violence as a means of enforcement, has to get well and truly out of hand before it does lasting damage. People dismiss the argument "Well I was spanked as a kid and it didn't do me any harm." out of hand, even as the opposing arguments they hold up as examples are of the form, "My dad took to me with the plough chain. I'll NEVER hit my kids."


But even if we are to eschew the rod as entirely too backward, society must still retain some form of "ultimate sanction". We have to stop handing out final chances to people who have repeatedly proven that they don't deserve them, even (perhaps especially) when they are children. If a child's behaviour is the parents' "fault" then society has to choose: take the child outright; enforce therapy on the entire family; or isolate the child with their parent(s) and deal with them when they become adults.

Yes I know what I am advocating here. However, is it not a far more SANE choice to enforce a SANE society, than to allow the current insane one to continue to evolve unchecked?

We have done nothing to erradicate violence except outlaw entirely responsible people using limited physical violence in set situations in addition to a perfectly adequate raft of laws which already catered for unwarranted or excessive physical attacks. We've "tackled" the visible aspect of "violence" while (by setting greater and greater stock in individual liberties, as well as extending those liberties to purely legal entities) making it harder and harder to deter emotional attacks on others. Apart from overcomming the old "sticks and stones" argument, how do you legally demonstrate injury BEFORE it manifests itself in tragedy?

Get over an absoulutist 1st Amendment. Dehumanising speech is NEVER free speech. The moment ANY preacher resorts to the Bible for justifying the enforcement of "God's Will" on society at large he forfeits his constiutional protections. No absolutist position should enjoy a constitutional protection. The Revered Phelps may have every right to say what he says. He however, should have absolutely no right to attempt to force those who do not want to hear him to listen. Nor should he, or anyone else, have any automatic right, or assumed permission, to use another's private life in the furtherance of his cause. How is picketting a funeral not an invasion of privacy?

[get the red out]

137. Fight back?

Against a crowd often-times? Should a girl fight back against larger boys who bully her (I had that happen in Jr High)? One boy who bullied me, shoved me into the bleachers without a thought, or a word from the teacher, in PE class went on to be a starting defensive end on a football team in the Southeastern Conference in college, could a girl have "fought back" successfully against someone who ended up sacking D-1 quarterbacks a few years later?

He wasn't the worst though by far. There were the gangs of girls that threatened me en mass, and a boy who threw my books down before English class every day in 7th grade, and I tried to fight back, but he would grab my arm and twist it behind me and tell me over and over he was going to break it, I would end up bruised and hurting from that. What I endured was nothing compared to my best friend, I don't know how he kept from committing suicide, strongest person I've ever known. He is gay. My problem was having curly hair and large breasts at an early age. I thought I was hideously ugly because that's what I was told every day, growing up all the adults told me I was so cute and had "Shirley Temple hair", but in the teenage world their opinions count for nothing, they have zero impact on one's social status or whether they are treated like a human being or not.

This was in the 70's, I think things are so much worse now.

[EnviroBat]

15. I don't know anymore.

When my now ex-girlfriend and her daughter lived with me in my home, the daughter was 16 then 17. She was one of the most self-centered, vindictive little bitches I've ever seen. And what she wanted, she was going to get no matter who she had to hurt, manipulate, or screw over to do it. Eventually it became clear that her mother was really the root of the problem along with the step-father/ex-husband who was nothing more than a "Carney", white-trash asshole who talked a good game when it came to discipline, but had zero follow-through. This wonderful little princess walked all over her mother, and I had to sit there and watch it happen, over and over again. I eventually had enough of both of them, and relationship ended quite abruptly, and badly. Last I know, they are back up there where they came from. I really hope this kid is not indicative of all kids in that age group, but from what I've seen, these little shits seem to think they are 10 foot tall and bullet-proof these days.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Uncola]

37. More importantly...

... what's wrong with our society in general, and our school administrations in particular that allow this stuff to continue to happen? This doesn't happen in a vacuum.

[valerief]

53. Parents watch Fox. nt

[1monster]

63. And sometimes the bullied kids are punished by the school powers that be for

being bullied. Mine was. The principal was a bully, too. I'm so glad that he disgraced himself that one too many times that he is no longer a school district employee so that he can not destroy more kids like he did my son and so many other kids.

on edit: left out a phrase that clarified my meaning

[fascisthunter]

75. their parents probably taught them this attitude towards...

people who are different from them.

[Kievan Rus]

102. Trust me, a lot of these "in crowd" types hate ANYTHING different

At least in my high school, anybody that wasn't a WASP that lived the stereotypical life in white suburban hell and cared about anything other than material possessions and vain gossip was a target. Several were avowed racists and no stranger to the n-word.

[quakerboy]

116. To be fair

thats pretty typical of all the groups, not just the "in crowd. The alternative kids and the nerds were just as unwelcoming of someone different as the jocks when I was in school.

Strangely the only place I was ever really welcomed was a christian school. And even there, only by a small few.

[ThomCat]

120. Bullying a kid over anything that makes them different.

No matter how trivial. :cry:

[whathehell]

6. Her tormentors walked by her casket....and laughed as her family watched..

:wtf:

"Suzana Vidovic found her sister's body hanging over the front lawn. The family watched, she said, as the girls who had tormented Sladjana for months walked up to the casket — and laughed".

"They were laughing at the way she looked," Suzana says, crying. "Even though she died."

I believe there can be no doubt of this being s sociopathic behaviore...What is turning young people into sociopaths?

___

[DBoon]

14. "What is turning young people into sociopaths?"

I'd say 40 years of right wing ideology lacking in empathy and compassion, where self-centered greed is the highest value and people who are not rich, beautiful and charming are losers who brought it on themselves

Under Reagan people started mocking the poor. That virus has spread throughout our country

[musette_sf]

30. +1

I too trace American sociopathy back to Reagan. I kept asking friends and neighbors, are you OUT OF YOUR MIND voting for this stuffed shirt Nixonite hand puppet??? He was no more qualified to be president than Clem Kadiddlehopper.

[kath]

41. "He was no more qualified to be president than Clem Kadiddlehopper."

You've got that right.
+1000.

[1monster]

70. Clem Kadiddlehopper would have had more empathy and human understanding.

After all, his creator was Red Skelton.

[QC]

33. +2

[whathehell]

34. Probaly plays a part, at least. It's a horror to behold. n/t

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

65. Americans have developed a deeply rooted ideology of virtuous cruelty

It isn't just a superiority complex, it is that the ability and willingness to be an asshole is seen not as a tremendous social defect but as virtuous resolve. Be it firing 10,000 employees, tormenting perceived "sinners" or reaching a masturbatory frenzy at the mere though of lethal injection while lamenting it can't be a crucifixion.

[Lorien]

111. Witness the popularity of "24". nt

[Enthusiast]

133. This nation is right

on the edge of WWII style fascism. The cruelty and coarse speech we hear directed toward "others" is an clear indication of where we are headed. We hear the right wing advocate dismantling every segment of the social safety net with no mention or concern for the consequences. This should raise an alarm for students of history.

We hear hate radio pundits rail against politically correct constraints. This is how it started in early Nazi Germany. The hateful speech directed at Jews eventually escalated into violence. This is why, imo, politically correct speech is the last bastion against inflaming hatred and intolerance of every sort.

Since the moment the Bush Administration engaged in torture this country fundamentally changed and there appears to be no effort to bring it back.

[Number23]

81. I have no idea what "right wing ideology" has to do with it

The glamorization of all things thin, beautiful and rich is not relegated solely to the "right wing." People who act as though their appearance is the only thing of importance and that the way they look and having a cadre of "friends" (no matter how mean and/or stupid they may be) is INFINITELY more important than the type of person they are cross all political ideologies. This type of self-centered "it's all about me!" crap is the precursor to just about every type of pathology afflicting kids and young people (and a whole bunch of not so young people) right now.

Hollywood and the American media that tells all of us -- particularly those of us with ovaries -- how to look, how to act, and what should be "important" is about as NON-right wing as you can get.

Lots of segments of American culture are to blame for this, and certainly not just the "right wing."

[Enthusiast]

134. It is the result of the constant

cruel and coarse language of the right wing. After a while intolerance and hatred become the acceptable norm. The right wing hate radio has certainly contributed to this more than any other factor.

[donheld]

93. The Sociopathic role models like Focus On The Family and Rush Limpballs

[oldhippydude]

99. yes i remember..

Madonna singing material girl...was like a cultural tipping point... it seemed like the whole culture was "coked out".. worshiping uncle Ronnie

[Lorien]

112. But the song was actually mocking materialism

and sadly most people missed that.

[Lorien]

110. Yep. Seems to be the case. There are some similar cases in Britain

but overall this mostly seems to be an American phenomenon

[Moonbat2]

128. YOU NAILED IT

Life was perfect prior to 1980

[Selatius]

129. No, this is what happens when you de-fund MENTAL HEALTH SERVICES.

You have mental health problems in the population that would otherwise be identified and treated but instead left to fester. Social Services is stretched to the bone, and they cannot handle all the suspected cases where children are growing up in households where physical or verbal abuse occurs. If these kids are so heinously cruel, it is likely because their parents are cruel to their kids, and these kids take it out on their environment, including the most vulnerable among us. How many households exist where parents are physically abusive? And how does that act as a predictor of how violent some of these kids grow up to be when they get out there on their own? It's questions like that that are not being answered, and the cost of not addressing them is the disintegration of the community at large to the point where nobody cares about anybody else or the community or cares beyond the day-to-day concerns.

[Gaedel]

136. I dunno

I got bullied during the FDR administration when I was in kindergarten. The kid's name was "Eddie" and he kicked me in the shins whenever the teacher wasn't looking.

[Statistical]

23. Self centered, egotistical, soulless parents that decide to breed.

Parents who are dead inside and via actions and words teach kids the way to feel good about yourself is to destroy other people.

Sad thing is if that cycle isn't broken the next generation of kids will be twice as bad, and the generation after that ...

Kids aren't bullies. It is learned behavior. The person who kids have the most exposure to (especially in early years) is parents.

[nannah]

38. we are a violent nation that worships greed and aggression

our political and religious institutions have managed to convert the human being's natural bent to cooperative survival behavior into this travesty of rapacious acquisition and cruelty. As a nation we choose to gain access to the resources of others or solve conflict by killing and waging war; Fundamentalist religions sing the glories of "smiting the enemy". Institutionalized contempt for "the other" is a building block for cruelty and violence against "the other". It would be interesting to look at the demographics of this community.

[Blue_Tires]

39. +1

[Cid_B]

119. Yet again...

A persons pet ideas stick out in any conversation.

Really? You think that bullying is just in America? or is even the worst in America?

[nannah]

142. if you are referring to "my pet idea"

that cooperation and community are the building blocks of a sustainable culture.... guilty as charged. Also I didn't notice any comparison in my post, naming America the worst or the only. We were settled by the masters of cultural destruction. But now, we need to evolve into a culture that doesn't threaten the survival of the planet.

[MedicalAdmin]

47. What is turning young kids into sociopaths?

How bout 40 years of Reaganism?

[Kievan Rus]

106. Agreed. Reagan was one of the worst Americans in history, IMHO

[ThomCat]

121. I hope the parents of that kid were there to see what a monster they raised.

x(

I hope everyone in that town saw and knows who that monster is.

[mrmpa]

153. Their asshole families and schools that are afraid

[HughBeaumont]

7. Menturd, Ohio.

One of many of Northeast Ohio's redneck/Hitler-youth-breeding suburbs (see Strongsville, North Royalton, Aurora, Bay Village, Vermillion and Brunswick). A majority of their students and citizens will insist up and down that this is being blown out of proportion, the victims "brought it on themselves" and would like nothing more than this unwanted publicity to be swept under the rug. Typical of the cities listed above, and just like many across the state and country.

Plenty of stories like this one; I lived it and so did many others. When I was a freshman, a girl tormented by bullies committed suicide in her garage. Our school was a Columbine waiting to happen and nobody's learned a goddamned thing from it.

Is it any wonder when I tore apart my basement with a sledgehammer, I thought of former classmates with each hit to this day?

Sometimes, you just can't turn it on and off like a light switch and forgive and forget.

[YOY]

8. I'm from Brunswick.

There is truth to what you say.

I can never forget some of the shit I heard people say there in regards to bullying. They pushed me damn near the edge...even now my wife can easily spot when my memory goes back to places I'd wished I'd never been. She says it's like watching a darkness decend over me.

She's right.

In my adulthood I see something very wrong with the societal values of that place. Something wrong with the adults that gets passed on to the kids. It's not "just human"...I've seen other places and countries...many...and there is something very wrong with where I grew up...perhaps even further out.

[HughBeaumont]

9. When/if you have to go back there . . .

. . . do you get the feeling coming over you that feels like disgust mixed with volatile anger at the same time?

Because that's exactly how I feel whenever I have to visit that cesspool hellhole Vermilion. Nothing but bad feelings. Hands tensed up, eyes in perpetual peripheral vision, obvious unease.

This is what hellholes do to a kid, even in adulthood. The worst part of it all is knowing you'll never get even one "sorry" and it ALL goes unavenged and gets passed down.

You mention "societal values" . . . when we think of small towns and their "values", the deluded think "Rockwell paintings of the barber shop, the local malt, the candy shop and quaint older houses". What they really are would be the embrace and acceptance of racism, sexism, male supremacy, homophobia, exclusivity, cliques, bullying, herd mentality, firmness of "station", assault, abuse, isolation from and rejection of "coastal cultures" and sweeping anything that makes you look bad under the rug.

[EnviroBat]

17. That's the feeling I get when I drive through Mansfield OH

That place is a fucking shit-hole of a city, and most of the people I've ever met there I wouldn't piss on if they were on fire.

[YOY]

25. I get the feeling that 15-25 years later when I infrequently return. I still want revenge.

Then I see them. They never left. They work dead-end jobs. All the things they did come back when I infrequently see my parents.

Except two. their daddies had money. When one of their cohorts died from (heart exploded) steroid abuse/meth/cocaine use Freshman year of college one "Doug" got away scott free from the police investigations. I heard Doug works in Florida now. Sales BS. Tried to "friend" me on facebook. I wish Facebook had a "fuck you, you racist, homophobic, xenophobic, asshole" option. I suppose I should thank Doug...he made me the hater of bigots that I am today. I still want to kick in his face. He is the reason I liked wearing Steel toed boots for a while...self-defense.

The other was a serious 'roid head named "Dave". I remember when I was down to 165 Lbs a friend of mine said to me at a party (that Dave crashed) "Have you lost weight? Looking good man!" That fucker Dave said "Nafeed to lose a whole fucking lot more." just itching to beat me up again...from any reply. Gigantic fucker...raped a friend of mine. Holly would never tell anyone but me and my friend Greg. Dave was just her neighbor who came over when her parents weren't home and raped her. She never called the cops. Only Greg and I knew. I'm 36 now and I still can't sleep some nights... Just thinking about it makes me want to kill. Nobody knows what happened to DAve. If ever pass him on the street...screw what he did to me...for Holly.

The dead guy's name was "Kenny"...for those of us who were at the end of their roid rage BS (and we were hardly the "rejects", "dorks", "Geeks", or "nerds" by any stretch of the imagination...that's the crazy part!) it sparked a wonderful "Oh my God! They killed Kenny" jokes...guess subtle revenge is the best. He was an asshole too. I remember the time he beat up a gay kid for just that. The kid was obviously gay and struggling with life. He just beat the "queer" right on the sidewalk. No repurcussions. Even as a sheltered "conservative" teenager I knew that was just wrong. So very wrong. I think about that gay kid sometimes..."Jason" was his name. I hope Jason is OK.

...and of course in that wonderful Midwest monkey tradition all the girls loved them and put me on the "nice guy" list at best or tried to insult me the same at worst. They attacked my self esteem so badly that I had trouble talking to girls into college and even after college. They robbed me....I know it...and I hate to talk like the victim because I fought back. I fought back hard. One of those fuckers has teethmarks on his leg to this day from trying to sit on my chest and punch me in the face...enjoy you filthy animal.

My wife doesn't understand how a man can have such a huge ego (I do) and low self esteem at the same time. She wasn't there.

I protect my daughter...she will never be raised in a place like that. Not with those villager-mentalitied animals.

[Posteritatis]

68. Got out of a place like that about that long ago myself

Haven't been back in a decade. Cautiously got in touch with a few other people from there who did get out since then, and they say the hole hasn't changed a bit.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

73. They probably got revenge on themselves,

I was not personally bullied, as I would have had to show up a little more often to even be recognized as a potential target... however bullying was absolutely rampant and the school was a huge part of the problem since their attitude was that any active discipline to the bullies would jeopardize their futures. Because one day the bullies would wake up, feel terrible for what they had done and turn their lives around - or something.

The thing that resonates with me is that when I look at those who were bullied the worst there is a former model who is now herself a photographer, she was tormented by other girls for being very tall, very skinny and modestly busted. Then the 90's hit and she found herself pretty much living on the Concorde. A guy who was tormented ruthlessly for being a geek wound up on the leading edge of non-linear video editing and is today one of the most sought after editors in Hollywood. Another guy who was tormented for allegedly being gay is a rockstar, married with children to a bombshell just bought the house next door so he could knock it down, he is out of space to store his cars.

Meanwhile about ten years ago some pictures began to circulate of one of the worst of the "mean girls" - in these photos she was looking methed out, on hands and knees, wearing a dog collar and being urinated on.

Living well is the best revenge, your tormentor staring in extreme fetish porn is just icing on the cake. None of the bullies for whom I know their whereabouts have done a thing with their lives. The ones who aren't dead are just fat, balding unemployable losers reminiscing fondly about being assholes.

[Joe Bacon]

154. +1,000,000

I know precisely how you feel, because I felt the same way when I had to go back to Ambridge, PA when my mom and dad died. I felt exactly the same way. On the other hand, I saw what was left of the town after all the steel mills shut down. Deader than dead. Yet the school district still poured a lot of cash into their football team and stadium. That hadn't changed.

No way in hell would I ever go back to that town again. Never again!

[blm]

60. yep, and it's also bully mentality who get in their cars and speed, endangering lives every day...

Innocents die every day, just like those two beautiful teens from Strongsville.

There are so many ways that bullying kills. It's a mindset. A tragically wasteful mindset. George W Bush had that same mindset.

[FedUpWithIt All]

10. We left Mentor, largely because we were fearful of our kids thinking that the "Mentor attitude"

is acceptable. There were several suicides the year we left.

[POAS]

18. One common denominator for these cities

is that they all became havens for the bigots that fled Cleveland to avoid desegregation. They are also still considered "safe" places for the racists to go now that many of their first choices (ie Lakewood) have become increasingly integrated.

As long as we are talking Cleveland burbs, let's not forget the ongoing struggles with race being experienced in inner ring burbs like Parma and Brooklyn. White flight found these places first and now the bigots that infested these otherwise nice communities and now (for at least the last 3 decades) is exporting that hate into the exurbs like Mentor.

[kath]

44. Yep, you've got it. Other "first ring" suburbs like Euclid also had whites leaving in droves for

further-out exurbs like Mentor. The waves of white flight go on and on as bigots move further and further out.

[Kolesar]

56. For fun, I ride my bicycle through Mentor to the lake

I think it is quite nice. Lake County has a good government, the people fund the parks, I get good service in stores. There is a lot of this country that is a lot worse, especially starting at 200 miles in one particular direction.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

95. It has been going on for decades...my daughter got off the bus crying everyday for 11 years EVERY DA

she attempted suicide once in 10th grade....I was at that school monthly...evrey board meeting ....seems like hundreds of faculty meeting...the teachers even said to me once..."Stephany is just over sensitive, she needs to grow a thicker skin. Then in her senior year just 5 months before graduation she took an over dose of pills...in the end she wanted to drop out of school and I agreed to let her.

The school did nothing except try to blame the victim. They tried to blame us as parents and said "that it must be her home life". I asked them if that the case then please explain to me why my daughter has never tried to run away from home? Why is it that my daughter spends every waking moment trying to think of ways to get out of going to school?...crickets

She got her GED at age 26...they told her she aced it and holds the record for highest score ever for the county. They were curious as to why she had dropped out of high school to begin with.

She is the foremen and wrangles horses at a dude ranch and works is a vet tech.... in college studying to be an equine veterinarian.

Sadly I doubt that anything will ever change in regards to bullying in our schools.

[Dr.Phool]

100. My next door neighbors (in Florida)elderly father was shot by Mentor police last year.

For refusing an EMS ride to the hospital.

[ThomCat]

122. OMG! I hope he's alive and well, despite that.

And I hope he and his family are suing the hell out of them for what they did. :(

[slackmaster]

11. Kids need to be taught self-esteem AND self-defense

:nuke:

[UndertheOcean]

16. No , The bullies need to be SEVERELY punished first.

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[slackmaster]

20. Punishing them after the fact does no good.

Is it possible to write a defensible legal definition of "bullying" so that it could be criminalized?

I think there have been bullies since the dawn of multi-family groups. People have been dealing with bullies forever. I was bullied, and I survived by joining up with other victims and fighting back.

[Statistical]

24. There isn't a single act so there is plenty of time to punish "after the fact".

Bullying to the point of suicide often goes on for months or years, sometimes an entire childhood. It isn't a single act but hundreds o acts, thousands of acts.

There are plenty of times to punish Bullies after the fact and it would do good. Someone who is spending every single after noon in after school detention for bullying will eventually get the point. Maybe they don't stop because it is the right thing to do but maybe they stop simply because they are tired of spending hundreds of hours stuck in after school detention.

[slackmaster]

28. I discovered that there are ways to make bullying stop immediately

It's very simple once you find the key, and every bully has an Achilles' heel. However, some kids don't have what it takes to do what is needed to make that happen.

[Kolesar]

57. I am way skeptical of that claim

You are expecting a child to plot out a scheme with the maturity and presence that only an adult has.

[slackmaster]

59. Put several highly intelligent resourceful teenagers together some time and see what they can do

:hi:

[Kolesar]

138. An unrealized adolescent revenge fantasy

I am not surprised.

[mentalsolstice]

49. What happens when nobody wants to stand by the victim?

All of your posts blame the victim, advocate fighting back. Sorry, but a lot of times non-bullying kids don't come to the side of the victim because they don't want to attract the attention of the bullies to themselves.

You say you were bullied because you had to wear glasses...sorry but I don't believe being called "four-eyes" rises to the level of the mental and physical torment some kids have to endure.

[slackmaster]

58. Maybe it's different in a small town than in a suburb, which is where I grew up

I was able to find enough other boys in similar straits to form an effective anti-bullying gang. Someone in a small town could end up completely alone.

...sorry but I don't believe being called "four-eyes" rises to the level of the mental and physical torment some kids have to endure.

You're applying a stereotype in an effort to minimize my plight. Nice display of prejudice.

I haven't ever posted what I had to endure, and I really can't. Nor can I give any specifics about what my friends and I did about it. Being called names was just a small part of it. Very small.

[mentalsolstice]

77. I don't know when you grew up

Really, you were mentally and physically tortured because of your glasses? To the extent that gay kids and kids with real physical disabilities were? Hell, I was bullied by some of my teachers in the 70s (pre IDEA), as a kid with a "minor" physical disability, they were saying I should be at a "special school." I was physically and sexually accosted on a daily basis, grades 6-9 (it stopped when we moved, and was the primary reason for my dad changing jobs and moving, luckily he had that option). NOBODY wanted to come to my rescue, adults or other students because they didn't want to call attention to themselves. I spent weeks home nursing the physical injuries I suffered. Did you? If you did, then the fact you wore glasses isn't the whole story.

I find it hard to believe you had to put up with this kind of abuse, otherwise you wouldn't glibly put out there the self-defense, mob-mentality crap. How are gay kids supposed to mob together? They're still having a hard time finding support within their families. And then they have to group with other "open" kids...yeah right.

[MedicalAdmin]

48. It occurs to me that if we teach victims self defence then...

the bullies will get severely punished.

[mentalsolstice]

50. How does that help a kid with disabilities?

Or kids who are not prone to any kind of violence. That's kind of like saying women who take self-defense classes are not going to get raped...and if they don't, then maybe they should share some of the blame.

[quakerboy]

117. Better yet

we can just get them all concealed carry permits and derringers!

[ThomCat]

123. Right, then only the kids with disabilities will be fair game.

Only the kids who can't defend themselves will be the easy targets. Is that the idea?

I think we need to find a solution that doesn't rely on being violent right back.

[Joe Bacon]

151. Really?

My dad sent me to karate school on a daily basis. He thought one good whack against a bully would stop my torture.

Didn't work out that way when half a dozen jocks hold you down while others beat you. Never could get my Dad to comprehend that. The Karate lessons were useless.

[treestar]

66. That is true, but also the bullies need to be dealt with

and not ignored or just considered part of life like they have forever - it enables them.

[LanternWaste]

82. I doubt that works or is appropriate in as many cases as may want to believe.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9279539

I doubt that works or is appropriate in as many cases as may want to believe.

[aikoaiko]

13. Should would be nice to see schools pay as much more attention to bullying.

I worry for my sweet five year boy.

[Statistical]

22. 4 dead in one school that isn't a problem it is an epidemic. n/t

[Dash87]

26. I was just going to post this, and then ask the question,

"Have we reached the point of national sociopathy?" How could somebody walk up to a casket and laugh?

Sorry if this sounds like stereotyping, but it seems like the richer the community, the more bullying. These kids are bullies because their parents are bullies too. That's how they made their money. :(

♥

[slackmaster]

31. I found that some bullies have parents that are normal, reasonable people

But even bully parents will listen to reason if you communicate with them in language that they understand. Sometimes you have to take it down to their level.

[Statistical]

32. Bullying is a symptom for a larger issue.

The children and the parents don't like themselves. They are missing "something" and they feel empty, hollow, worthless.

They have found as a coping mechanism that destroying other people makes them feel a little better.

[felix_numinous]

36. Unfortunately I think some kids are absorbing bullying culture

from the gangsters who are in high places in our society. I am so sad to see this, and know as a child what I experienced in school in the 60s sounds mild compared to what is happening today. My heart goes out to each of these kids.

[d_b]

40. mccain and joe dipshit campaigned there?

nice

[uncommon]

51. :(

One of my good friends grew up in Mentor. This is very very sad. I hope her family gets some kind of justice from all of this.

[political_Dem]

52. Good God. This has to stop. This is horrible.

My heart breaks over all these stories. Kids shouldn't have to put up with this crap. Doesn't anyone realize that bullying only serves to bring down the intellect of our nation by driving our best and brightest out?

The book has to be brought down on the bullies so that they (and their parents) learn that there are serious legal consequences to their behavior.

Enough is enough. :(

[blue sky at night]

54. I live in Ohio....I know about mentor....

I had my car keyed badly there in 2004 for having the nerve to express myself via signs in my car. EXTREME REPUKE TERRITORY THAT IS!! Is it no wonder this kind of tragedy would happen there.

[Odin2005]

55. Evil fuckers! Let me at them, all beat the shit outta those bastards.

:grr:

[bobbolink]

62. And yet if any of us expresses pain, all most of you resort to is the same old "permanent solution

to a temporary problem."

We are a dead society, with the majority of people not able to have empathy or compassion.

This is the result, and it will continue.

[marmar]

71. self delete, intended as an OP

[fascisthunter]

76. breeding sociopathy

[teewrex]

78. I wish Michael Moore would do a movie on bullying.

Most schools are in denial that it happens.

[InvisibleTouch]

94. I'd like to see that too. Would be a worthy project. n/t

[Joe Chi Minh]

79. No belief in externally-imposed moral commandments any more.

Isn't everyone supposed to be free to make up their own opinion on what constitutes moral behaviour these days? With the law as the final arbiter? The trouble is, the law is for sanctioning the law-breaker after the event, and is designed to deal with the miscreant. The further it has moved from its Christian origins, the poorer it has proved at even doing that.

What it does not do, now more than ever, is play a significant positive, part in training the consciences of young people, in creating a basic ethos in which bullying is restrained, while bullying the afflicted is regarded - as it used to be - as beyond shameful.

Bullying has always occurred in schools to some extent, but I don't know if bullying to the point of driving its young victims tosuicide ever occurred in the forties, fifties and sixties. What certainly didn't occur was the suicides of even young children in the junior schools, as has been occurring in the UK. Or attacks on disabled people in wheel-chairs, also by young adults. The children in one family even get bullied because they all have ginger haired! Feral isn't the word for it. Of course, the real villains of the piece are the nation's leaders.

[Number23]

83. Three dead in ONE FAMILY

Good God...

"A year after Rezak's death, the older of her two brothers, 22-year-old Justin, also shot and killed himself. His death certificate mentioned "chronic depressive reaction."

This March, her only other sibling, Matthew, died of a drug overdose at age 21.

Their mother, Nancy Merritt, lives in Colorado now. She doesn't think Meredith was bullied to death but doesn't really know what happened. On the phone, her voice drifts off, sounding disconnected, confused.

"So all three of mine are gone," she says. "I have to keep breathing."

[myrna minx]

84. .

:-(

[earcandle]

85. Our kids have become worse than animals. Our young adults, genociders... our old folks miserable.

[inna]

86. sad beyond words. kr

[KurtNYC]

89. Reality television is stoking this fire

there is more to it than that but nasty, eliminate the "weak" TV shows and prank shows are stoking this fire.

[Enthusiast]

135. I agree..nt

[WorseBeforeBetter]

141. I absolutely agree with that.

I watched "Master Chef" a few weeks ago and mostly enjoyed it, but I tried tuning in to "Hell's Kitchen" the other night and lasted about 15 minutes. Between every other word bleeped and the contrived working class cooks v. privileged Beverly Hills High school students theme, it was ridiculous.

I watched "Candid Camera" as a kid, but it didn't seem to have the viciousness of today's offerings.

[1776Forever]

90. Terrible news! I remember bullies too but now it is like it is 1000 times worse!

It must stop and our laws must change to protect the innocent!

[alp227]

91. From reading these responses it seems that selfishness and a narrow mind contribute to bullying

And bad parents. And elitism. Racism. Homophobia. Bigotry. (The latter three sometimes in the name of "traditionalism". Among other factors.

First there was the week of gay kids committing suicide. And now in one high school four kids. In a crappy economy where way too many people out of work. Sad times now.

[Drale]

92. Ok

why all the suicides lately? Kids have been bullied for centuries and teens have been depressed for century's. There has to be some influence or reason that more teens are choosing to end their lives. I was bullied for years, but I never once ever thought about killing myself, but it seems that today this is one of things constantly on teens minds today.

[Liberty Belle]

96. 1 of the case was cyberbulling; ridiculing a kid online to the whole school,

as opposed to private taunts. The girl has sexted a photo of her breast to a boyfriend; girls found it and spread it all over. She was called whore etc., couldn't get any peace for months.

[Drale]

140. Ok thats bad

but you dont think girls called other girls whores before? I still think there has to be an outside reason, for this.

[Liberty Belle]

146. It was much worse. I read an article on it, don't have link.

The cruelty was unbelievable. She had to have groups of people surround her when she walked down the aisles at school but the minute she'd be alone they'd attack her again and again. It went on for months until she finally snapped.

[Name removed]

97. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lorien]

113. I wonder why they were allowed to go to the funeral

If I had been among the girl's family members I would have had them escorted away at once. Pure evil, those girls. I hope they get the karma they deserve.

[Smarmie Doofus]

115. e-z does it, spank. see it as a call to action. nt

[AnArmyVeteran]

103. Bullies & their parents whose actions lead to someone's death should be tried for murder.

If parents became criminally and financially libel to prosecution for the hateful actions of their children maybe then they would attempt to actually be parents. If the cause someone's death put all of them in prison. Most bullies come from parents who are thugs themselves. Parents should be punished the same ad their abusive children.

[undergroundpanther]

104. some kids

are just sociopaths, while some are not.Even among in siblings one can be a sociopath and the others not be. .Alot of people,do suffer the viciousness of the conscience-free assholes existing among us..But be aware most victims NEVER go on abuse others!(it's called the vampire myth look it up.)But a few kids who are bullies do get a signal bullying is excused so they will keep on bullying because they know they can get away with it and no one will stand up for the targets..

[Lorien]

109. I defriended someone on Facebook today over these stories

He posted several hateful status updates against the gay teens and college student who had been bullied to death. He actually said that they weren't "strong enough to survive" and therefore "It's better for the species that they be culled from the herd. Only a weak, cowardly loser would allow words to drive them to suicide" He went on to praise the bullies for "revealing the weak among us and ridding us of them" and said that they were only exercising their free speech rights. I told the asshole off and promptly de-friended him. He was one of those "friends of friends"; so I explained to our mutual friends (all liberals) why I did what I did. They may do the same. Unfreakingbelievable!

[Smarmie Doofus]

114. Two of the four, then, were glbt-related. Yes?

The article seems to want to shy away from that fact.

Let's at least be clear about the facts before we try to analyze the problem.

[countmyvote4real]

124. I guess this is why Ohio is considered a swing state.

Or is it the water? I'm not trying to be smug or snarky, but there is something wrong there.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

125. My old man got the hell outta Ashtabula in the early '30s. n/t

So that's why I am one-half Yankee & one-half Texan.