The whole thing with the house being allowed to burn in TN is a metaphor for America right now.

[arbusto_baboso]

The whole fucking country is burning down, and the Republican/Libertarian types are standing around asking "What's in this for ME?"

[Enrique]

1. our country is burning like a Tennessee house

k & r

[TexasObserver]

8. yep

[pansypoo53219]

2. i have been saying that for months.

butt using the vietnam? burning a village to save it. but idiot amerikans can't see the forest for the trees.

[Scuba]

3. It's an apt metaphor.

[madmax]

4. +100 This tragedy should

become the poster child of what the Right Wing nuts want to do to this country with everything from, fire, police, ambulance, etc.

I live in NC my town Ambulance service costs 140.00 per year. I didn't' sign up - we have insurance that covers that. Plus, I feel I have time to do that since I'm not that old and have family and neighbors available to take me to the hospital. Granted they don't have the equipment that might save my life.

WTF - where's the humanity!

[arbusto_baboso]

5. Humanity is now apparently secondary to cost efficiency.

And if someone is stupid and/or a deadbeat, they apparently deserve to lose their home, too.

Some "christian nation" we are.

[JuniperLea]

18. Whatsoever you do for these the lesser of my brothers, you do for me. - JC

So, if Jesus' house was on fire, I'm sure we would need to check a list first.

That little story about not worrying about how many fishes and loaves you have when you go about feeding the multitudes clearly only applies to those who have money, or when the multitudes are people you can get something you want from.

You know, I don't even care if this guy was a loser, a scammer, whatever. There's no shame and no mistake when you opt to take the high road.

[arbusto_baboso]

19. Precisely. There's NO justification for this. NONE WHATSOEVER.

Anyone who says, "Well, you just don't know the details of the story" is simply trying to justify inhumane behavior. PERIOD. END OF REPORT.

[JuniperLea]

25. Spot on.

I have little tolerance for the justification of barbaric behavior.

We all know the details, inside and out. This is a matter of priorities. Some of us put the priority on perceived monetary fairness... then there are those of us for whom none of that matters, and the only thing we care about is doing the right thing.

I don't go through cosmic intellectual machinations when faced with life and death dilemma. I do the honorable thing, and sort it all out later.

[madmax]

52. dupe delete

[madmax]

53. Those who profess to be the most righteous

are the biggest hypocrites. I'm with you JL.

This is why I dislike all organized religion. They make up their own shit along the way.

[JuniperLea]

59. As a recovering Fundy...

I wholeheartedly agree!

I'm their worst nightmare! I was raised earning ribbons and Bibles for learning verses, I taught Sunday School, I was in the Sunday morning regular choir, and the Sunday and Friday night youth choir... Sunday morning I went to Sunday School, and regular services that followed, I went back on Sunday night to sing in the choir and hear another sermon, I went back on Tuesday night for Bible study, back on Wednesday night for youth choir practice, Thursday for regular choir practice, Friday night was the regular youth service and choir performance, and at least two Saturdays a month were dedicated to church activities.

I learned a lot, I got into trouble asking a lot of questions, I got slammed by church elders for bringing rock tunes to the choir... pft... the hypocrisy started getting very easy to see.

I still have my Bibles and ribbons... and I haven't forgotten the scripture either. Hypocritical Christians hate me... real Christians know better than to hate anyone;)

I feel pretty damn agnostic these days.

[nadinbrzezinski]

61. I am an agnostic too

for other reasons

But when I meet the Jewish versions of fundies who do the same crap...

I just walk away shakin' me head.

[JuniperLea]

64. Every cult has them...

And I do believe cult is the correct term.


I have a cousin who is a Christian missionary... she lives in Israel with her missionary husband and their two daughters, who are also studying for mission work. We were raised in the same church. She was way Fundy, obviously more so than I! LOL! But you'd be amazed at how her tune has changed since she learned to speak Hebrew and started studying. She's very down on the hypocrisy we saw as kids, and she and her mother (my aunt) have really butted heads over the dogma so thickly spread these days, and over her mother's anger at how she and her family keep a lot of traditional Jewish holidays, feasts, etc. And don't even get her started on televangelists! LOL! It's pretty funny!

[nadinbrzezinski]

69. I got a few stories from my local fundies

of the Jewish variety, including a family that does the home schooling and kids don't have 'cess to any modern media, and of course the world if 57 and whatever the Jewish Calendar reads this year.

Oh and only good fearing Jews will know god when they die, translation those who follow the law that is, aka them!

Yep, they are cults.

I recommend "The Chrysallis Effect." Great book, and it will illuminate their rise.

[JuniperLea]

74. I'll put it on my list!

I keep a Word doc on my desktop so I can keep a good list, and I always note the person from whom the recommendation comes.

Thanks!

[nadinbrzezinski]

78. Somebody else on DU recommended it

and as you can see i got it... brilliant book.

[madmax]

68. Not raised the same but,

was searching. Everywhere I went it was ok, until I asked questions. Then it was, 'that's why God gave you one mouth and 2 ears". sorry, not good enough. I wasn't asking deep questions - I'm not a deep thinker. Anyway, I just gave up.

By chance picked up a book, 'The Sermon on The Mount' by Emmett Fox. Made more sense to me and I have what I'd call some faith in something AA calls, 'A Higher Power'.

Thanks, for sharing your experience. :hug:

[JuniperLea]

71. Sharing is good...

:hug:

We are all in this mess together!

I'm putting that book on my list... right next to the one nadin just recommended.

Thanks!

[TexasObserver]

6. So true. Even here, this bastion of progressive thought, we have some of it.

It's selfishness and a lack of human compassion.

[Fumesucker]

7. Proudly unrecced for not understanding the situation in Obion county..

[arbusto_baboso]

11. Blah, blah, blah. Get back to me when you have something valid to say.

I've seen your justifications for this on other threads, and they're all bullshit.

[Fumesucker]

14. Opinions are like noses..

Just about everyone has one..

Where were you on my OP about DU taking up a contribution to help the good citizens of Obion county get universal fire protection?

You think the citizens of S Fulton should provide it for free to those who refuse to pay but you won't contribute yourself.

That is a hypocritical stance.

[arbusto_baboso]

16. I do not think this word means what you think it means.

In fact, you need to take another look at your own opinions, before you start throwing around "hypocritical".

[Fumesucker]

20. Why do you refuse to help the good citizens of Obion county get universal fire protection?

You think they deserve it and you want someone else that does not live in Obion county to pay for it.

[arbusto_baboso]

21. Nice Straw Man, Gomer!

Not gonna fly here. Piss off, and take your thread hijacking elsewhere.

[Fumesucker]

23. Why do you refuse to help the good citizens of Obion county get universal fire protection?

Come on, I know you have an excuse why someone other than you should pay..

[JuniperLea]

27. Fucking tax me

make it federal and fucking tax me so that EVERYONE has firefighter services. Sign me up.

[Fumesucker]

33. Some of your fellow citizens disagree..

I would not be averse to fire fighting being paid for through federal income taxes but a hell of a lot of people disagree with that.

[JuniperLea]

35. Fire is a danger to us all...

It's not just a matter of one home, it can easily spread to many. We either pay taxes on the front end, or we pay out even more on the back end. It makes fiscal and humanitarian sense.

I don't want my damn tax dollars going to fund stinking lousy wars... do I get the choice not to? NO. Tough shit to me; tough shit to those who want to risk everything they have, their lives, everything the rest of us have and our lives. It's just too fucking bad, isn't it?

I don't particularly car for many things my hard earned tax dollars go to... it's just tough shit, isn't it?

[Fumesucker]

38. Someone commented to me last night that we don't pay people to dig holes and fill them back in..

I pointed out that we pay people a million dollars a year each to blow up mud huts on the other side of the world, I personally would far rather pay those same people a hundred thousand a year to dig holes and fill them back in, it would be far less costly and more productive as well.

[JuniperLea]

41. FAR more productive...

It would stimulate the economy, and aerate the soil. War is good for "absolutely nuthin'."

[sabrina 1]

81. I saw no one refusing to help. I know you were trying to make

some kind of point, but it failed, miserably. So intent on making whatever point you were trying to make that even when people said they WOULD help you moved the goal-posts. You are not arguing in good faith, not attempting to find a solution, just interested in 'winning' by playing a game of 'gotcha' a game as old as the internet, in relation to a subject that is no game, that involves lives and property of real people.

The issue of what to do about Obion county was discussed, argued about and finally several who had disagreed, came to an agreement on a solution. I didn't see you there seriously trying to solve the problem, too busy still trying to find someone to play with you, and still failing miserably.

There are solutions, when people put their heads together and think, and are willing to stop playing internet wise-guy, an incredibly useless phenomenon peculiar to the internet where anonymity gives some false courage and which the immature still insist on playing.

Maybe you could take a breath since no one wants to play your games anyhow and give this topic some serious thought. What exactly IS your solution? Even if everyone on DU sent a donation to them right now, what about next year and the year after? Your solution has no merit, it is a quick fix with nothing in mind for the future.

Thankfully more thoughtful commenters HAVE come up with some solutions that would be permanent, guaranteeing that this will not happen again.

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. Proudly rec to counter your unrecc

by the way thanks for illuminating the OP.

[Fumesucker]

49. Ever take the Political Compass test?

I'm right there with the Dalai Lama.

http://www.politicalcompass.org/index

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. many a times and I am social democrat

google that up

[Fumesucker]

54. Do you think being in the same spot as the Dalai Lama is a bad place to be politically?

I don't think even the Dalai Lama would expect the poor to provide services to the rich when the rich refuse to provide their own.

[nadinbrzezinski]

58. Here you are espousing libertarian views, sorry

and yes, there are left wing libertarians...

Again, sorry.

[Fumesucker]

60. Yes, the Dalai Lama is a left wing libertarian..

And you are expressing authoritarian views because the opposite of a libertarian is an authoritarian.

[nadinbrzezinski]

62. How?

I am not telling you how to do anything.

Just pointing out... that your views fall in perfect line with left libertarians. You MIGHT want to google this up. And no, it is not in that test either.

But then again political science is a smidgen more complex than that test.

And if you espouse CLASSIC libertarian views I will tell you such.

By the way the provision of basic services is a CLASSIC social democrat stance as well.

Of course it includes taxes...

And by the way, you are not alone and ALL of us will espouse views at times that are shocking and surprising when the correct name is used.

[Fumesucker]

63. Sure, you want to tell the taxpayers of the city to provide for the much larger county..

CLASSIC authoritarian.

ETA: My view is that the taxpayers of the county should pay sufficient tax for their fire protection, that's hardly a classic libertarian view.

[nadinbrzezinski]

65. Nah I want to tell the county to pay their own taxes and fund

their own FD.

Alas the COUNTY BOARD OF SUPERVISORS voted against it.

But whatever.

Perhaps it is time to grow my iggy list, or perhaps not. This is proving to be way, and I mean this WAAAAYYYYY too revealing about a good portion of the Democratic base.

I knew we had LEFT WING libertarians. I just didn't think that many.

On edit, those taxes (since that fee is a flat tax) should be progressive.

[Fumesucker]

67. A very large percentage of DU falls in the lower left quadrant of the political compass..

ISTR it's an outright majority..

Take a look at the people in the other three quadrants of the PC, do you *really* want to be where they are?

[nadinbrzezinski]

70. LOOK at that quadrant, study it carefully

what is at the bottom?

Libertarian.

What is to the left?

See how you could indeed have a left wing libertarian? I mean even THAT test shows that pattern.

Now I am further to the left than down... just saying.

Progressive taxation is a LEFT wing value. JUST SAYING.

You think people are horrified by these views because we live in cities and far away from RED country?

MY EAST county is as red as they come. MY County board of supervisors, ALL republican, have not made the FIRE DISTRICT optional.

[Fumesucker]

75. I strongly believe in progressive taxation...

How does that make me a bad person in your eyes?

[nadinbrzezinski]

77. It does not

I am just telling you that you (and we all do this from time to time) espoused a few views that are down on that quadrant.

We all shock ourselves from time to time.

[Fumesucker]

79. I haven't shocked myself at all..

You have disappointed me with your insistence that a small and poor community should forever provide services to a larger and wealthier one if they refuse to do so for themselves though.

[LostinNY]

85. Fire protection

Is not cheap. My husband is a city firefighter and is paid through city taxes. As an aside, having fire protection helps businesses and therefore people in cities by helping them save a shit load in insurance costs, so having that paid fire dept always on call can actually save people money.

On the other hand, out in the country fire departments are usually volunteer. They need cash to operate. We live outside of the city my husband works in so we are covered by a volunteer fire dept, a very good one. Each year they submit a contract to the surrounding towns and they negotiate a set price for fire protection. This fee appears on a separate line on our town taxes, and we know exactly what we are paying. There are public hearings and the public can voice any concerns before the contract is finalized, but no one can opt out of the fee. Nobody ever expects a devastating house fire, but they happen. I don't think fire protection should be an option. You need to pay to protect your family as well as your neighbors. Also, I put blame on the elected officials that voted to make this fee optional. What were they thinking? What if a family died in a fire as they slept over $75.00? My husband is a paid firefighter as well as a volunteer, he would have helped these people, by the way. But if money doesn't come in, there would eventually be no fire dept to call.

[Motown_Johnny]

66. +1

[madmax]

80. lol wtg nadine

I like this thread. ;)

[TexasObserver]

9. Proudly recommended for getting it right.

It's not a difficult issue.

[stuntcat]

10. I think so too

The idea of people standing there with a firetruck watching a house burn.. It shows me I'm 100% right about humanity.

[Marr]

12. Very true-- in several ways. One is

that too many of our rural areas are dominated by right-wing politics, and people who want to freeload off of more responsible, more civic-minded metropolitan areas. We've got way too many ignorant fools insisting that government 'keep it's hands off my Medicare'.

[JuniperLea]

13. There is no more accurate measure of society...

Than how they treat those in need. That goes for the poor, the homeless, the uneducated, victims of crimes and most certainly, anyone whose house is on fire. There is no asterisk at the end of this statement. There is no ridiculousness supporting allowing any of the above to happen.

[Bluerthanblue]

34. ....

...:hug:

indeed

[JuniperLea]

37. ...

:hug:

It really gets me that so many DUers are apparently heartless Libertarians at the core. I was actually called a bleeding heart liberal here... as if it were a bad thing.

[madmax]

72. You have the power to reach more

people than one of those MegaChurhes. You're a good person JL. Keep on sharing your insight, it's a gift.

[HuckleB]

15. 88...

[SargeUNN]

17. Randi Rhodes just said

what people who support the decision on the fire story don't seem to realize it was extortion on the part of the county. The truth I believe is that it was an extreme reaction, very heavy handed, and unreasonable.

[Fumesucker]

22. Extortion on the part of the county?

The county does not have a fire department..

There are so many people commenting on this story who are completely wrong on the very basic facts..

[SargeUNN]

28. who made the decision? That is who she was referring

I understand the county made this decision but if I am wrong please tell me who did. Thanks for your clarification I certainly want to be correct and gladly will correct any incorrect statement.

[Fumesucker]

31. There are multiple people who made decisions..

The voters in the county made the decision not to tax themselves for universal fire protection.

The voter in the city made the opposite decision.

The home owner made the decision not to pay the $75 subscription fee for fire protection.

The city FD made the decision not to put out the fire at the house. (because they were not getting paid often enough when they did do so)

Which is the truly critical decision?

[JuniperLea]

39. Fine...

When do we pacifists get to vote on funding war?

[donheld]

84. +5000

[prolesunited]

24. It's as much extortion as paying taxes is extortion

The county had an option to pay for fire service as a tax or as a fee. The voters opted for a fee. Fire service had to be paid for through some avenue.

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. Actually it was not the voters, but the county council

on an 19-1.

But this is a FLAT TAX, to avoid raising PROGRESSIVE taxes.

So unless you can show me that Mr. Cranick was part of the County Board of supervisors.

[Fumesucker]

83. I'm guessing you think the city council membership list was handed down from God?

In actual fact it was the voters of the county who elected those officials to decide issues for them.

It's known as representative democracy.

[Uncle Joe]

26. If the Fire Chief were a judge and the homeowner a criminal.

The action of allowing his house to burn down because he didn't pay a $75 premium would violate the home owner's Eighth Amendment Rights.

Article VIII; Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Thanks for the thread, arbusto_baboso.

[Scout]

29. since the fire chief isn't a judge and the homeowner isn't a criminal

then your "point" is moot.

[Uncle Joe]

30. Whether it's moot or not depends on whether you believe cruel and unusual punishment should ever

be justified.

Apparently the Founders didn't believe that cruel and unusual punishment should be tolerated against criminals, so I find it ironic that we should do so for free citizens.

[Fumesucker]

32. Some of us believe there is a difference between "punishment" and "predictable consequences"..

The city FD asked for a $75 subscription fee to cover homes outside their normal area, the homeowner chose not to pay that fee..

The predictable consequence of that decision was that the FD would not respond to those who had not paid the fee.

[Uncle Joe]

40. Although by no stretch of the imagination is punishment perfect in it's application, it is

nonetheless a "predictable consequence."

If you murder, rape or rob someone, you will be punished; should you be caught, the same holds true for minor offenses.

But by all moral/ethical guidelines, the punishment should fit the crime, a person should not be put in prison for stealing a candy bar nor executed for simple assault.

The same holds true for "predictable consequences" if you don't pay your electric bill they can cut off your electricity but they don't do it when it's freezing because the consequences could be too severe for the offense, the same holds true for allowing a person's home to burn to the ground for not paying a $75 fire protection fee.

[Fumesucker]

42. So the much smaller city should continue to provide fire protection to the larger

And wealthier county for free forever?

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. Nah some of us have told you the LOGICAL

LIBERTARIAN solution. CANCEL mutual aid, PERIOD... only respond within city limits.

Yes people will die... but that is the kind of America with logical consequences for that John Galt paradise.

[Fumesucker]

47. I actually agree with that..

But it's not libertarian because libertarians don't believe in government services at all and the city FD is a government service, it's just not a service for the county because the city government and the county government are two entirely separate entities.

I wish there was another solution but I honestly don't have a clue what it might be given the overwhelmingly popular ideology in Obion county.

[LanternWaste]

51. Is it really a zero sum equation...

Is it really a zero sum equation with merely two solutions, or could it be a somewhat more complex problem with multiple, imperfect solutions?

I really don't see this as being either/or.

[Fumesucker]

57. Given the political realities of the area I do indeed see it as a zero sum equation..

Mainly because I live in an area that quite similar politically and I see these kinds of battles around me on an ongoing basis.

Drive twenty miles and the politics switches from a medium blue to the brightest red.

[cemaphonic]

55. not to mention, no punishment either.

The Fire Department didn't start the fire, though with the degree of abuse they are taking, it wouldn't surprise me to find that people believe they did.

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. Thankfully this is a CIVIL matter

though I think the FD acted wrong and should have fought the fire.

Libertarians don't agree.

And I said this because a lot of people do not realize that the VIII applies to criminal matters, and I think you know that.

:hi:

[Uncle Joe]

86. Yes I do know that.

The only reason I brought up the VIII Amendment was to highlight a moral basis in regards to the punishment fitting the crime or offense. In this regard the Founders thought that proportion was important.

In a very real sense the FD chief was punishing the homeowner because the $75 fee wasn't paid and I see the FD Chief's actions as being done more out of spite or to set an example than due to actual economics.

The man stated he would pay any additional expense.

There was no legal requirement for the FD to fight the fire, just an ethical/moral one.

Peace to you, nadenbrzezinski.:hi:

[Bluerthanblue]

36. a ME rica? or

the "united" states.

It's up to us to set the example- our caring, empathy, and values shouldn't be witheld because someone didn't pay a fee. Money has become the god/king/lord/ruler of this society- and what is money anyway other than something invented by humans to give them power over others???

I'm rec' this, because it IS a sadly apt metaphor.


:grouphug:

[LanternWaste]

48. How we treat the weakest among us...

How we treat the weakest among us illustrates quite a bit I'd imagine. Regardless of whether the weakness is chronic, or happened due to an unwise choice.

How we treat those who speak out on behalf of the weak may say quite a bit too.

[Fumesucker]

56. In the fire situation it appears that who is seen as the weak is the major variable..

Personally I see the residents of the city as the weak, they are poorer and much less numerous than the residents of the county. And yet they have been providing free fire protection to the county for decades.

Apparently you see it differently.

[Motown_Johnny]

73. more of a microcosm than a metaphor IMO

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Microcosm

mi·cro·cosm   /ˈmaɪkrəˌkɒzəm/ Show Spelled
Show IPA

–noun
1. a little world; a world in miniature ( opposed to macrocosm).
2. anything that is regarded as a world in miniature.
3. human beings, humanity, society, or the like, viewed as an epitome or miniature of the world or universe.




http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Metaphor

met·a·phor   /ˈmɛtəˌfɔr, -fər/ Show Spelled
Show IPA

–noun
1. a figure of speech in which a term or phrase is applied to something to which it is not literally applicable in order to suggest a resemblance, as in “A mighty fortress is our god.” Compare mixed metaphor, simile ( def. 1 ) .
2. something used, or regarded as being used, to represent something else; emblem; symbol.






The house burning isn't a symbol, it is much more of an epitome.

[rbnyc]

76. Indeed (nt)

[grahamhgreen]

82. That's it in a nutshell!!!!