Vegetarianism makes no sense to me

[TonyMontana]

I just had an argument with a vegetarian and she said to me that nobody has the right to kill an animal for any reason, whether it be for food or otherwise. While I agree that killing an animal for fun doesn't make much sense, I don't see how any rational person can think it immoral to kill an animal for food.

First of all, animals kill other animals in order to eat. It's just nature. We are, believe it or not, just another animal in the grand ecosystem on this planet. Just because we're capable of communication and problem solving doesn't change that. Dolphins communicate, too. And dolphins are not vegetarians, last I checked.

The argument then typically shifts to "but humans are herbivores". This is patently false. My front teeth have evolved specifically to cut meat. Ditto my canines. My molars are meant to grind vegetable matter. My intestines evolved to digest both plant and animal matter. Humans are OMNIVORES.

There is nothing wrong with killing animals to eat them.

[Luciferous]

1. ...

:popcorn:

[leftstreet]

Oh God. This should be good

[awoke_in_2003]

80. let's kick it up a notch...

I don't understand circumsised vegetarians who condone breastfeeding at the olive garden.

[grantcart]

160. Circumcised vegetarian fireman who breastfeed while they watch a house burn down

and at the same time discuss the virtue of voting for Crist over Meeks.

[awoke_in_2003]

162. well, shit...

I can't argue with that :)

[11 Bravo]

247. If it didn't happen at the Olive Garden, with a pit bull in attendance, it doesn't count.

[mkultra]

2. i think you made their point for them

they question they are considering is, are we truly just animals.

[elleng]

8. Not 'just,' but we ARE animals.

[mkultra]

111. but are we more

[cleanhippie]

183. more what?

[mkultra]

227. more than just animals

[Codeine]

234. Nope. We're just animals.

Smart animals who manipulate our environment like no other, but we're the same old meat machines our dogs are.

Seriously, defend your thesis -- in what way are we "more" than animals? What makes us substantially different from every other bundle of mammalian biochemistry walking or swimming this globe?

[mkultra]

250. its not a scientific question, its more of philosophical question

or perhaps even a spiritual one. A true thesis is not really applicable. Are you instead asking my opinion?

[blondeatlast]

3. Wow, no one has ever discussed this at DU before!

:popcorn: and jammies...

[monmouth]

4. Steak, medium rare...Oh yeah...n/t

[elleng]

5. It is natural; some are not comfortable with it.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

6. Popcorn, anyone?

:popcorn:

Or would you prefer a hamburger?

[Broken_Hero]

16. I'll take some ...

Popcorn, :)

:popcorn:

[nashville_brook]

19. i'll have some meat-free popcorn.

and a side of pork soda.

[KamaAina]

20. I'll have mine with extra butter

:popcorn:

[Gormy Cuss]

82. How insensitive.

Don't you know where BUTTER comes from?
Have some brewer's yeast on that corn, young man.
:popcorn:

[TBF]

7. Peta says it better than I ever could -

"Every day in countries around the world, animals are fighting for their lives. They are enslaved, beaten, and kept in chains to make them perform for humans' "entertainment"; they are mutilated and confined to tiny cages so that we can kill them and eat them; they are burned, blinded, poisoned, and cut up alive in the name of "science"; they are electrocuted, strangled, and skinned alive so that people can parade around in their coats; and worse.

The abuse that animals suffer at human hands is heartbreaking, sickening, and infuriating. It's even more so when we realize that the everyday choices we make—such as what we eat for lunch and the kind of shampoo we buy—may be directly supporting some of this abuse. But as hard as it is to think about, we can't stop animals' suffering if we simply look the other way and pretend it isn't happening.

Animals are counting on compassionate people like you to give them a voice and be their heroes by learning about the issues they face and taking action. Each of us has the power to save animals from nightmarish suffering-and best of all, it's easier than you might think. If you're ready to join the millions of other compassionate people who are working to create a kinder, better world for animals, please read on to learn how animals suffer in the food, animal experimentation, entertainment, clothing and pet-trade industries. Together, we can make a difference."

http://www.peta.org/issues/default.aspx

[uncommon]

23. Too bad PETA kills animals.

They have no credibility, which is too bad because they do bring a lot of important issues to light.

[ThomasQED]

39. PeTA has more credibility than the USDA, who "inspects" your meals

here's your credibility

[littlewolf]

176. I have always been a member of peta

P eople
E ating
T asty
A nimals

[ThomasQED]

178. Aren't you clever!

And sad.

[superduperfarleft]

182. Never heard that one before.

:eyes:

Idiot...

[tabasco]

9. Then don't be one.

Last time I checked it was a free fuckin' country.

[Electric Monk]

15. WIN

:applause:

[blondeatlast]

22. Wish I'd said that. nt

[county worker]

10. All vegetarians are not vegetarian out of consideration for animals.

There are lot's of other reasons to be vegetarian which I am not going to list out of fear of being one of those vegetarians who preach it.

There is a good book, "Becoming Vegetarian" that list many other reasons to be a vegetarian.

[nashville_brook]

26. couldn't agree more.

i'm waiting for my kung pao tofu to be delivered as i write this.

[county worker]

86. kung pao! HOT!

[area51]

203. +1, thank you.

I'm a vegetarian for health reasons.

[devilgrrl]

11. The "hide thread" button makes complete sense to me.

:eyes:

[slackmaster]

12. "Rational" is relative to one's personal values.

I don't agree with your friend at all, but she may have an internally consistent set of beliefs and practices.

[Iterate]

13. It would if you were a cow.

[On the Road]

74. Actually, If You Were a Cow,

"making sense" would not be an ability you possessed. That's kind of part of the argument.

[Angry Dragon]

223. And you know this how??

[still_one]

14. Fine you don't want to be vegetarian, don't be. Your friend wants to be, that is fine too

I am a vegetarian, but I don't tell anyone what they should or should not do

It is a personal issue, and anyone can think what they want, at least today

[phasma ex machina]

125. +1

[Confusious]

267. The problem is, around here, everyone is always telling us

Why we shouldn't eat meat, and then making disparaging remarks if we don't agree with them, AND THEN it descends into madness.

[blondeatlast]

17. So eat meat. I'm not certain why you would make it an issue? nt

[K8-EEE]

18. WELL there IS something wrong with the inhumane factory food system we have

Personally I think the majority of Americans never think about what they eat and drink. Fast food, HFCS, soda, donuts, alcohol. My vegan friend says "if slaughterhouses had glass waslls everyone would be a vegetarian.

You don't have to reach the same conclusions as your friend but you don't have to argue with her or be a dick about it. At least she's thinking beyond the plastic wrapped tray in the supermarket or the burger wrapper. So just respect her for that and eat what you want.

[chillspike]

21. I imagine the last cannibals

presented a similar argument to yours before they were permanently shunned and driven out of the tribe.

[L0oniX]

212. Damn it! Cannibals are people too. Why do you all hate me?

[Chisox08]

258. Cannibals have rights to!

People should be discriminated because of their choice of food. :crazy:

[JoePhilly]

24. If she lives in a HOUSE, she killed some animals.

Forget the teeth part.

If you live in a HOUSE, trees were REMOVED. The drainage around that house killed or dislocated MANY, MANY animals.

If she gardens, that means she selectively plants, or removes, various "natural vegetation". She plays god with the landscape around her.

If her house has WINDOWS, bugs that might live by entering her house are left out to be eaten by bats at night.

I could go on.

Skip the teeth discussion. Ask her to move into a CAVE so that no animals are hurt ... except for those she displaces from the cave. Unless they eat her.

[TexasObserver]

25. She sounds like a Jain, whose beliefs make her a vegetarian.

That is, if she really doesn't believe in killing any animal for any reason. Some vegetarians are such strictly for health reasons.

Food choices might as well be religions, of course. Everyone is entitled to believe as they want. I don't care if one chooses to be a vegan or live on nothing but red meat.

[Codeine]

27. What a completely unique point of view, and such original arguments.

Your refreshing and enlightening post will guide us in our life journeys through many long years ahead, sir.

[Warren Stupidity]

28. Consider it harm reduction. nt.

[onehandle]

29. Health. nt

[flvegan]

30. I think I got a Bingo just from the OP>

[frogmarch]

63. +1

Perfect.

[Jamastiene]

112. +1

[MH1]

131. great graphic

:applause:

[AmandaMae]

180. +1

[meow mix]

189. LOL rec

good one

[L0oniX]

209. +1000

[oberliner]

211. Can I ask you the source of that?

It's great - I'd love to able to share it with others.

[flvegan]

215. No idea.

It's hosted at thrustlabs.com, so I have to give someone there the credit.

[oberliner]

218. It is right on the money

Very funny - and sad.

[Lorien]

221. The "teeth" defense is one of the most idiotic

our teeth look like any herbivore's teeth. TRUE omnivores are animals like raccoons and bears. There's no way in hell that any human mouth will ever resemble theirs. If human teeth were designed to cut meat we WOULDN'T NEED A FUCKING KNIFE!!

[Confusious]

268. Dup

[Confusious]

269. You haven't taken or read much history have you?

Every time they find an old prehistoric site, there are two things. A dead fire, and animal bones. The reason our teeth are shorter is because we learned HOW TO COOK.

People have been eating meat for a long long long time.

Maybe you would like to tell me how the earth is only 6,000 years old, since those sites are obviously hogwash.

[handmade34]

31. makes sense to me

...though your friends reasoning is somewhat faulty. What I believe is that it is tragic that we abuse animals the way we do at factory farms and that we have been convinced by good marketing that we need to eat as much meat as we do...

"...The FAO report found that current production levels of meat contribute between 14 and 22 percent of the 36 billion tons of "CO2-equivalent" greenhouse gases the world produces every year. It turns out that producing half a pound of hamburger for someone's lunch, a patty of meat the size of two decks of cards releases as much greenhouse gas into the atmosphere as driving a 3,000-pound car nearly 10 miles..."

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-greenhouse-hamburger

[Warpy]

32. I don't get morality vegetarians, myself

After all, most plants don't want us to eat them or their progeny, with the exception of fruits that need animals to eat them to scatter their seeds along with ready made fertilizer. The rest of them would just prefer to live and proliferate, thanks.

I feel better when I live on veggies. If I get hungry for meat, I'll buy some organically raised stuff maybe two or three times a year, give myself a protein blast in a stir fry with a little meat. Eating it all the time makes me feel heavy, greasy, sluggish, and generally not right.

I know people who feel like crap when they don't eat meat all the time. Some people seem to need more of it, although Pollan's suggestion of half a pound a week would seem to be a good one unless they want to croak young of clogged arteries.

I just don't get the interjection of morality into the whole thing, never have. We eat to live and that means eating other living creatures, plant or animal. That's just the way this planet is designed and morality has no part in it outside greed and gluttony.

[JerseygirlCT]

104. I'm with you

I feel like that with red meat. I tolerate poultry and fish ok - but even there, it's small portions. (Makes grocery shopping cheaper, too!) I *could* probably give up meat entirely, but I don't really see any need to do that. Health-wise, I'd probably just eat even more cheese, and that's not the best thing, either! (Vegan is completely un-doable for me. I love my dairy, couldn't possibly live without it).

I'm more than happy to accommodate any vegan or veggie friends, and would never consider asking them to eat differently. So I never understand people who seem to think they need to "preach" about their eating choices, either...

And yes! to your last line. Greed and gluttony are definitely a consideration, though, as you say.

[Dorian Gray]

167. Totally agree with you Jerseygirl

(Quelle surprise!)

Now that I'm pregnant, I do eat more meat than I did before (I blame my cravings for burgers!), but, generally, I can have many meals a week that do not include meat or meat products. I do love dairy, though, so it would be difficult for me to give up. (Though I have made inroads with almond milk!)

I don't understand why anyone would be judgmental of anyone else's choices. I have a friend who went vegetarian recently, and I respect her choice. But, other friends have called her "stupid" for making that choice. I don't get that at all. She doesn't preach or try to convert anyone, so what is it about her diet that threatens other people? Bizarre!

[JerseygirlCT]

171. Hey, congratulations!

I remember those cravings! Always imagined my body was telling me something. With my second, I hate a lot of tuna. He is one smart little man, so maybe what they say about brain food is right? ;) And I remember breaking into tears at the cashier in the supermarket with my first when I couldn't find Breyer's Mint Chip ice cream anywhere. I HAD to have it!

Enjoy it - I loved being pregnant!

[Dorian Gray]

272. Aw, thanks....

I also love being pregnant. I think I'll miss it when the baby comes! (But I'm looking forward to eating fewer burgers and more vegetables! :) ).

[ThomasQED]

33. I don't know what's wrong with sweatshops

I have a job and I make money, and the purpose of that money is to buy stuff. I can buy more stuff if it's made in sweatshops.

Why should I care about the people making my stuff? It's not my fault they were born places where sweatshops exist. I evolved into this privilege and don't mind using it to make others suffer.

I don't see how any rational person can hold any belief besides the one I hold, and especially when mine completely ignores all the individuals suffering, all the environmental destruction and all the health problems that arise from sweatshops. Obviously it is rational to only think about myself.

I have decided not to care, and poof! All the bad things related to sweatshops just disappear when I decide I don't have to care.

There is nothing wrong with exploiting people to buy cheap stuff.

I have spoken.

[Codeine]

34. Game, set, and match. nt

[flvegan]

36. You smacked that one into the upper decks.

[cleanhippie]

184. Yeah, it went pretty deep. Too bad it was a foul ball...

...being a false analogy and all.

[flvegan]

197. Looked straightaway center to me.

Not being a false analogy and all.

[cleanhippie]

207. I guess we just have different definitions then.

Here's mine...


http://ksuweb.kennesaw.edu/~shagin/logfal-analysis-fals...

http://changingminds.org/disciplines/argument/fallacies...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_analogy

http://onegoodmove.org/fallacy/falsean.htm

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/wanalogy.html

[flvegan]

214. Really mastered the ole "block & copy" haven't you.

[cleanhippie]

217. I fail to see what that has to do with anything.

But your personal attack is noted.

[TonyMontana]

41. A false analogy doesn't really work

I don't think I need to go into the details about why your post makes no sense.

[Codeine]

44. In other words, you got nothin'. nt

[cleanhippie]

186. Actually, there's plenty.

IF you understand the concept and definition of a false analogy, there is actually plenty.

[superduperfarleft]

190. So explain to us how it's a false analogy?

:shrug:

[cleanhippie]

192. Okay.

http://ksuweb.kennesaw.edu/~shagin/logfal-analysis-falseanalogy.htm

http://changingminds.org/disciplines/argument/fallacies/false_analogy.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_analogy

http://onegoodmove.org/fallacy/falsean.htm

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/wanalogy.html




I don't think I can do any better than others already have.



For the record, I am not spoiling for a fight or argument. You can either agree or disagree. I mean no snark or sarcasm.

[superduperfarleft]

199. I know what a false analogy is.

You just provided a definition. You didn't explain why that post in particular was a false analogy.

[cleanhippie]

205. It seemed pretty self-evident to me.

No worries if it's not self-evident to you. Maybe I am just seeing something you are not.

[superduperfarleft]

208. Well, explain it to me.

As I'm not a religious fundamentalist, I prefer to make decisions on my ethics based on rational reasons, not on irrational species preference or just the fact that I personally enjoy doing something which may be ethically questionable. Saying, "It just is" didn't work when my loony grandmother tried to dispute evolution, and it won't work when people do the same thing.

And for the record, I'm not looking for a fight either. Just curious...

[cleanhippie]

210. I really don't know how to do it any better.

Seriously. The links to definitions and examples I gave earlier do a much better job than I ever could.

Sorry, brother, thats the best I have on a Sat morn with a hangover and a fussy baby.

[ThomasQED]

48. Oh please do

I suspect it has to do with "But those are huuuuumaaaans, not aaaaanimals" which in no way negates anything I said.

[Llewlladdwr]

85. RAT = PIG = DOG = BOY...

Milk is murder....

Vegetable rights and peace....

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[uppityperson]

96. +1

[cleanhippie]

187. Since when did pointing out a common logical fallacy endanger one's posting privileges?

Just to be sure, I re-read the rules and I did not find anything about that.

I did find this, though...

Do not publicly accuse another member of this message board of being a disruptor, conservative, Republican, FReeper, or troll, or do not otherwise imply they are not welcome on Democratic Underground. If you think someone is a disruptor, click the "Alert" link below their post to let the moderators know.

Do not draw negative attention to the fact that someone is new, has a low post count, or recently became a member of Democratic Underground. Do not insinuate that because someone is new, they are a troll or disruptor.

[Chan790]

137. Actually, he owned you.

You see, the OP argument is not exactly a new one to those of us who are veg*n. It's both not-terribly-novel and fallacious.

All Tom's doing is using a subject substitution to mock your argument...if his fails the sniff test, those faults of logic lie with your OP; it makes no sense, it is only because your OP relies on such a jump of logic and question-begging as to be internally-logically inconsistent. He's not making a good analogy, he's just mocking you for a fool being made foolish on their own petard.

His analogy isn't meant to work, it's meant to humiliate you for your own false analogies and faulty reasoning...or as my grandfather used to say "nail, meet hammer."

[demmiblue]

51. Good, really good!

:thumbsup:

[handmade34]

54. you are awesome!

[superduperfarleft]

107. Serious fucking win.

But you forgot, "Look, you buy what you want and I'll by what I want. It's none of your business if I buy stuff from sweatshops."

[ThomasQED]

179. Thanks! I also forgot this:

Of course I would *prefer* that sweatshop conditions be better, but what am I supposed to do about it? I have to buy cheap crap. I can't stop doing what everyone around me does - what if I couldn't own the same things as them, or had to *ask questions* before I bought something? I'm too insecure and weak to make a stand on my own. I'll just keep on buying my cheap crap in pretty, sanitized plastic packaging, and every now and then I'll say I wish conditions were better, throw up my hands, and keep paying the people who created those horrible conditions.

[SammyWinstonJack]

173. +1.

:evilgrin:

[Codeine]

35. Drive-by flamebait makes no sense to me. nt

[earthside]

37. Vegetarianism will kill you.

I just finished reading this book:
The Vegetarian Myth: Food, Justice, and Sustainability by Lierre Keith

It is a polemical book, not a heavy scientific, nutritional tome. But it confirms much of my suspicions -- humans are not designed to be strictly plant eaters.

Indeed, veganism is especially detrimental to a person's health.

Now, the author is critical of today's factory farming and says that we should be eating, for instance, grass-fed beef.

[Codeine]

That's a profoundly stupid statement, inasmuch as

there are a number of very long-term vegans who post here regularly, one of whom is a bodybuilder and personal fitness trainer. I myself have been vegan for over twenty years and have experienced no health issues of any kind.

[earthside]

50. "Profoundly"?

What an arrogant retort.

But typical of vegans -- so morally superior to all the rest of us.

Sheesh.

[Codeine]

57. No moral superiority whatsoever.

My girlfriend is a meat-eater; she makes the choice that is right for her, and I make the choice that is right for me.

But the fact that there are a bunch of healthy vegans all over the place sort of puts paid to your statement that it kills, right?

[Confusious]

270. There may be some healthy vegans

I had a girlfriend who was one. Sick as a dog all the time. Me, I eat red meat sparingly, more chicken, turkey, ham and fish in small amounts, I was fine.

It depends upon the person how their body will handle it, and they shouldn't be looked down upon because their body may need it.

I have a friend who eats meat all the time. He feels great after a meal like that. I make fun of him when he gets the lamb or something else, but I get the feeling forcing him to eat a vegan diet would kill him.

[Dorian Gray]

168. Dude

what's your damage? Can't someone disagree with you without you equating their disagreement with "moral superiority?"

I'm not a vegan, nor do I ever intend to be one, but who cares if others choose to be? It's their diet and their life.

[flvegan]

43. (facepalm)

[ThomasQED]

45. It's not heavily scientific because the science doesn't support that.

The American Dietetic Association and the UN have both stated that vegetarian diets are healthy for all stages of life.

But I guess your author knows better?

[earthside]

47. Perhaps she does. n/t

[Codeine]

64. She's not a scientist.

She's a radical feminist polemicist with a grudge against agriculture.

[superduperfarleft]

108. She's also known for being severely transphobic. n/t

[Codeine]

49. That woman is a whackadoodle.

Her problem is with agriculture across the board.

[flvegan]

56. THAT is the word I was looking for.

Thank you. Yes, whackadoodle.

[handmade34]

61. silly

some of the oldest, healthiest people I know are vegetarians and vegans (and might I add that they are happy and well adjusted)

[earthside]

97. You can't argue with vegetabletarians.

That has been demonstrated here quite conclusively.

It really is like a religion and a very strict fundamentalist kind of religion.

There are billions of meat-eaters that live healthful lives into old age. Heavens it can't be true, can it?

And, as Jared Diamond has observed in the past, agriculture may have been a "profoundly" mistaken direction for humans to take thousands of years ago.

There is simply no room for debate about how we evolved: as primarily meat-eaters with the ability to eat some nuts, seeds and vegetables.

The fact that there are some nutrients that humans need that are only contained in animal fats is another fact of our carnivorous nature.

But I'm sure that the moral and political superiority of the vegans will cause them to stick fingers in their ears and yell "Na! Na! Na!" endlessly to drown out the inconvenient truth.

Oh, well ... it explains why they are mocked and ridiculed -- they bring it upon themselves.

[flvegan]

101. "Vegetarianism will kill you."

:rofl:

Oh, I just have to keep repeating that...since we're doing the mock/ridicule thing.

:rofl:

[Chan790]

140. You know...

my friend's aunt's neighbor's niece's piano teacher's 99-year old grandma was a vegan and just suddenly dropped dead one day. No cause. Her eyes glazed over and her pulse stopped.

If that's not a clear-cut case of broccoli poisoning, I just don't know what else it could be? :shrug:

[flvegan]

145. Might have been carrot karma.

You know...killing veggies.

RIP friend's aunt's neighbor's niece's piano teacher's 99-year old grandma *pours some out for dead vegan homie*

[superduperfarleft]

109. You want to call people "fundamentalists" but you're making sweeping, wrongheaded,

blanket statements about how vegetarianism "will kill you" and when people call you on it, you get huffy?

Who's the fundamentalist again?

[handmade34]

114. I don't do hyperbole and

I am the(al)most reasonable person I know. I just happen to think the statement "vegetarianism will kill you" is silly. I understand that there are many, many meat eaters that live long happy lives; no argument from me.

The passion that I feel (and that I believe comes from many other people here) is connected to the evidence that shows the negative impact factory farming has on our environment. It is very serious and ignoring the facts is as silly as people ignoring the facts about climate change itself.

When I hear or see people say "nobody is going to tell me what to eat" I cringe. It sounds like "fuck the environment and our children's future, I will do what gives me gratification right now"

I know about being mocked... started getting it from my family and 'friends' when 40 years ago I stopped eating meat and started eating that "funny food" they didn't understand. I never once preached or judged them.... but they sure liked to make fun of me.

This issue is much like any that we are passionate about... we criticize big oil because they are exploitive and hurting the environment. It is the same with factory farms; they are exploitive and are harming the environment... I often wonder why more people aren't up in arms about the harm being done to our environment by factory farming :shrug:

[AmandaMae]

185. exactly!

"It sounds like "fuck the environment and our children's future, I will do what gives me gratification right now"

That's what it sounds like to me to. I don't understand meat eaters who are so defensive about their "right" to eat as many factory farm produced steaks and McDonald's cheeseburgers that they refuse to even examine how their choices might negatively effect others. And we shouldn't let factory farms do whatever they want anymore than we should oil companies.

[handmade34]

194. welcome to DU

:applause:

[JonLP24]

157. Ricky Williams is perhaps a healthier person than you're

Definitely more so than myself. Other than the long term effects that generally come with a career in the NFL, you can see he is a very healthy individual. He has to be to remain on a NFL roster. He is one example and there are many on vegan diets. You can live healthy w/ meat and without.

[ZombieHorde]

230. "as primarily meat-eaters with the ability to eat some nuts, seeds and vegetables."

What? The majority of calories consumed in tribal cultures comes from plants. I highly suggest attending a 101 anthropology class.

[blondeatlast]

70. FFS. And I'm an occasional meat eater. nt

[shockra]

165. Review of "The Vegetarian Myth"

http://www.theveganrd.com/2010/09/review-of-the-vegetarian-myth.html

Concluding paragraphs:

It’s true that some vegans are too skinny and are not healthy. They don’t eat enough fat or enough calories or they refuse to supplement with vitamin B12. Or they make any of the many mistakes that people make with all types of diets. But Keith insists that a vegan diet will damage us all–she is 100% certain of this–and it is simply not true. It’s not supported by nutrition science and it isn’t supported by simple observations of long-term vegans, not to mention vegan-from-birth children.

Interestingly, she never tells us what she ate when she was vegan or what she eats now that she is an omnivore. Except to say that she used to eat “all carbohydrates” (All? No wonder she was sick) and that she now eats mostly animals and their secretions. And while she thinks she understands “moral vegetarians,” she reveals her total disconnect from a vegan ethic with three short sentences in the closing paragraphs of the book, “I have looked my food in the eye. I have raised some of it myself, loved it when it was small and defenseless. I have learned to kill.”

This is ultimately a sad book. Lierre Keith has suffered from multiple health problems all of her life and was desperate to find an answer. She landed on vegetarianism and then spun a tale to support her theory. Her intent seems heartfelt; she sees herself very much as a savior of vegetarians and wants us to learn from her mistakes. And the book has been widely embraced by those who want to believe that meat-eating is healthy and just. The problem is that there is truly nothing in this book that accurately supports that conclusion.

Myths about "The Vegetarian Myth" chapter by chapter.

http://vegetarianmythmyth.wordpress.com/

On edit: Added link!

[ZombieHorde]

229. How do you explain longtime vegetarians? nt

[SmileyRose]

38. you could have saved a lot of words by just posting "olive garden is fantastic"

and accomplished the same thing.

[TonyMontana]

40. OK, once and for all, somebody tell me what that means

I keep hearing about the great Olive Garden flameout...

What did I miss?

[REP]

46. It means your post failed to fail to suck

[blondeatlast]

52. Executon: 2.6 (out of 6). Originality: 1.2.

I liked it better when they had mad skillz.

[TonyMontana]

55. Don't tease

I actually want to know!

[blondeatlast]

60. Topics been done to death. No one changes anyone's mind. All the talking points

from both sides are stale.

Hell, it isn't even fun flamebait anymore, even for the wittiest DUers.

[TonyMontana]

67. OK but WHAT happened at the olive garden?

You're killing me here. What about the olive garden caused such an uproar?

[blondeatlast]

71. It was ugly. 17 tombstoned DUers, a few of us survived. Must donate and search,

I can no longer bear to talk about it. :cry:

[REP]

88. Don't forget the dead Asian woodcarvers

The horror. The horror.

[blondeatlast]

94. Damn you! I blocked that after months of intense therapy.

Now the horror has rushed back. :scared:

[REP]

99. I had "scantily clad" flashbacks and must use the Mental Floss with Chlorox(tm)

[petronius]

72. Nothing happened at the Olive Garden

As far as anyone knows, nobody (except perhaps one person, and maybe her husband) even went to the OG...

[blondeatlast]

76. Oh, I was there. I still remember the bodily fluids. See above. nt

[petronius]

81. There were fluids? Plural? Like more than one kind?

:scared:

I only heard about the breast milk, myself...

[blondeatlast]

84. I. Don't. Want. To. Think. About. It. I never want to hear the phrase

"fresh bssil" again...

[REP]

89. NO. It didn't happen. Nobody went. Do not speak of it again.

[Hissyspit]

126. Oh, I went there. I didn't actually eat. But I went there.

[ReverendDeuce]

191. What's wrong with the Olive Garden? n/t

n/t

[spanone]

42. Tony! Toni! Toné!

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

58. If you don't want to be a vegetarian, don't be one.

Yes, biologically humans are omnivores, but unlike some animals (cats, for example), they don't need to eat meat to survive. They (we) can manage just fine without it. So, some people choose not to eat meat for ethical reasons; others do so for health reasons. Those reasons are valid and they are personal to the people who choose to eat one way or another.

A person's reasons for eating meat or not don't have to "make sense" to anyone else. Eat what you want; let your friends eat what they want. And be considerate. If your friend finds meat-eating to be disturbing, don't argue with her and don't chow down a bloody hunk of rare prime rib in front of her just to rub it in. And I would also hope that your friend doesn't get up on her high horse and insult your diet, either. Nobody wins this argument.

[Jamastiene]

113. Live and let live.

Not everyone likes the same foods anyhow. To each their own.

[petronius]

59. It's not often that we get to see a legend in the making. Tony, I will follow

your DU career with great interest... :rofl:

But, just in case your imagination flags, let me suggest a few possible thread topics for your future consideration:

"No - does it really mean no?"
"Children don't belong in restaurants"
"When you think about it, John Yoo made some good points"
"Kittens are only good for eating"

Enjoy!

[blondeatlast]

62. Oh, he's promising, fer sure, but needs experience. nt

[Codeine]

66. Once he's on his third or fourth account his skill level will be unsurpassed. nt

[ThomasQED]

68. Thanks for the laugh!

Maybe we can redo "Overweight people should/should not be allowed to break manicurists' chairs"

I actually really enjoy those types of threads because often there are good points on both sides and it's fascinating to see how people think.

[petronius]

77. Forgot about the chair question - definitely needs to be revisited

:)

[and-justice-for-all]

65. Sounds like a vegan, they are hardcore ...

the bad aspect of meat eating is our factory farming practices, they are just vile and inhuman. I consider myself a Vegatatian because I eat little to no meat at all, I do so because I despise the cruelty involed in meat production.

Now, if some one is hunting and feeding their family, I have no issue with that; trophy hunting on the other hand, is fucking vile. People are also allowed to believe whaetever they so choose, no matter how irrational it may seem to you. The human animal began as herbivors and then millions of years later began eating meat, but meat eating is not necassary, you can live without it.

[frogmarch]

69. "animals kill other animals in

order to eat."

And may I add, sometimes for fun too, or just because.



Turn about is fair play. Never forget that, Tony.

[Speck Tater]

73. I fought high blood pressure and high cholesterol for years. Then I went vegan...

It took three weeks for my blood pressure to become normal (after 30 years or more of being dangerously high) and 6 weeks for my cholesterol to go from really bad to excellent.

Say what you want, it works for me and I'm not going back. Frankly I don't care one way or the other what other people do, but I know what's best for me. And I've read loads of different studies that indicate that a vegan diet is healthy, long term, so a small hand full of contrary studies (all subsidized by the meat or dairy industry, if you bother to check into it) are not likely to change my mind.

The problem with most vegans, however, is their holier-than-thou attitude. On the other hand, the problem with most carnivores is their holier-than-thou attitude. In fact, the problem with most people when they post anonymously on the Internet is their holier-than-thou attitude. And in that respect I am certainly no exception!

[Codeine]

75. I'll have you know

I am MUCH holier than thou. Much. Like, a ton or something -- a whole lot.

[blondeatlast]

78. Nuh-uh. I am. nt

[Speck Tater]

79. Well, of course we do have to make allowances for those who truly ARE holier than thou.

Such as the two of you. And myself, of course. ;)

[JerseygirlCT]

105. I like your attitude and approach

For me, vegan is unthinkable - not because of meat, but because of dairy. You'd have to pry that cheese, milk and ice cream from my cold dead hands, lol.

But seriously... live and let live. This is one of those choices that's so very personal. It seems rude to make someone defend their very personal eating choices.

Glad that you were able to find something that so radically changed your health for the better!

[Speck Tater]

156. True Confession: I do sneak in a little cheese now and then.

Like maybe once or twice a month. :) I do love cheese, even though it does give me acid reflux when I eat it.

[JerseygirlCT]

172. I won't tell a soul. Promise. :) nt

[awoke_in_2003]

83. I have a coworker...

who was sickly growing up. It wasn't until he joined the navy that he got tested and found his body does not produce the enzymes to digest meat properly. He has been a vegetarian since. He is 67 years old, and my 42 year old self has to work to keep up with him. Not all vegetarians do it for the same reason.

[HuckleB]

87. Telling Others That Their Diet Makes No Sense Because It's Vegetarian, Omnivorous, Or Vegan...

... makes no sense to me.

Granted, if I have a friend whose diet seems to be negatively affecting his or her life, I might decide to talk to that friend. Health care providers should give advice on healthy diets. However, people can follow vegetarian, omnivorous or vegan diets (and I know there are plenty of other/sub categories, too), and eat very well. They can also follow vegetarian, omnivorous or vegan diets, and eat very poorly.

There is no point in rehashing something that doesn't need to be rehashed. Yeah, I know I'm rehashing something a hundred or more other DUers have already posted.

Let the foodism schism end. Please.

:hide:

[LanternWaste]

90. So you believe the justification used by one vegetarian...

So you believe the justification used by one vegetarian is the same fundamental reason used by all?

Regardless, humans have, for whatever reason you may deign, applied many reasons to regulate or even deny perfectly natural functions of the human condition, else we'd all urinate whenever and wherever the urge strikes.

[bergie321]

91. I am a vegetarian

For environmental and health reasons.

[phasma ex machina]

128. I'm a vegetarian because calves cry when someone takes their bottle away from them.

Big eyes, big eyelashes, big tears.

[Warren DeMontague]

92. Everyone generally has one head, one brain, one body, one mouth, one set of sex organs.

They should be in charge of deciding what to do with their own. Not everyone else's.

[Odin2005]

93. I hold the "humans are herbivores" BS in the same contempt as astrology and creationism.

[TK421]

95. My balls itch n/t

[H2O Man]

98. gosh

[MoonRiver]

100. I don't eat meat. It's my choice.

You chose to eat meat. We are all entitled to our choices. BTW, a BIG reason for not eating meat, or not a lot of it, is health. But maybe you feel immortal. Maybe you even smoke thinking there can be no side effects, for you. To each his/her own.

[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TK421]

103. I will never, ever understand why some people are so obsessed with what others

put in their mouths....I will never understand it, like it actually makes a fucking difference in YOUR life (you know what? it fucking doesn't!!)

If people want to eat meat, let them...if they want to eat soy and vegetables and no animal products whatsoever....FUCKING LET THEM, but JESUS FUCK I am so sick of hearing about how much this bothers those of you who disagree with it!! How does their decision on what to eat affect your fucking LIFE?

Can you answer that very simple fucking question? CAN YOU?

[handmade34]

116. large factory farms

slashing rainforests and polluting the waters and directly contributing to global climate change just to provide meat for people that eat an excessive amount of it... do affect my life and my childrens future!

[TK421]

117. Do you obsess over what others put in their mouths every day?

while the reasons you noted are noble ones, nobody will stop eating meat anytime soon

And if you don't want to do it? Good for you

[handmade34]

119. nope, never obsess

...but I do know quite a few people who of late have stopped eating meat and or cut down considerably...

and just because a task is difficult or seems insurmountable, it doesn't stop me from doing it if I consider it positive for society or community.

[nadinbrzezinski]

123. Actually I will correct you

plenty of people HAVE stopped eating meat. No, not for noble reasons, they can't afford it.

Now if you qualified that statement and said that MOST people in the US and a few European countries will not stop consuming unhealthy ammounts of meat, then you have a point.

Reducing your consumption to Recommended levels will do good for you and the environment... just saying.

[TK421]

175. Understood, but this OP is intolerant towards one persons diet

and all I'm saying is I don't care what you put in your mouth, just like you shouldn't care what I put in my mouth....

It is a pointless exercise

[nadinbrzezinski]

188. From a policy perspective in a world with seven billion

and a wall in food production (and peak oil and global weather change) sadly, we will have to start caring.

No, not what YOU precisely eat or not eat, but what your member population does. Why do you think the UN has already come up with statements suggesting that advanced economies reduce meat consumption to healthy levels?

But I can foresee a "food police" of sorts when we start dealing with some of this crap as a global community.

[TK421]

225. In the long run? Yes....but nobody will tolerate food police, especially me

If we happen to have any legislation that flat-out regulates how much meat or other product can be consumed, you or I will not see it in our lifetimes..

Food police, and everything else that goes along with it simply will not be tolerated, and I only eat meat occasionally...in fact, it would be easier for me to go without meat than it would to go without real milk ( I've tried that soy milk crap, and it tastes like shit...I fucking hate it, and soy cheese, too ). Meat? not that much of an impact on me to begin with since, in my situation even that is considered a luxury and something I don't use every day.

Live and let live, as posted above...if you live a vegan-vegetarian lifestyle, then I applaud you for your choice, but when someone wants to impose restrictions on the way someone else eats ( like someone who eats meat regularly ) then yeah, I have a problem with that.

It's almost a non-issue, now that I think of it...we won't see something like that in our lifetimes

All of your points,by the way, I agree with them

[nadinbrzezinski]

236. Au contraire we will.

[TK421]

239. We will what? sorry, it's been a very long day here-

tolerate food police or live to see a policy restricting meat consumption?

[nadinbrzezinski]

243. We are at the point where we, as a species, will have

to make radical changes or face extinction. It is our generation, or best case, my nephew's.

We have reached that moment, and it will include things like WORLD WIDE food policy.

Now truth be told, don't expect to see it before it gets much worst, but we will... in the next twenty five years. I am forty five... it is well within my lifetime.

[TK421]

244. I kind of have a picture of Soylent Green in my head now...I certainly

hope it doesn't get to that point, although I think that film was well ahead of its time

[nadinbrzezinski]

245. Yes it was well ahead of it's time

:-)

Why I do silly shit personally that will not do much of a difference... except if I'm not the only one.

And some are hard to balance. When I order a coffee for here, well there is all this paper being saved, but water that will need to be used, as well as electricity.

But we are blessed to live the Chinese Curse.

And no I don't believe in the end of times of insert religion here... but we may very well be close to something similar. I hate it when prophecy becomes reality due to our collective stupidity.

I have been recommending a book on this conflict, "the Chrysalis Effect," recommended by a DU'er to me a few months back. It really goes into that conflict that we will have to overcome. We're tool makers, so I got hope that when all is said and done we will be able to overcome these challenges. Now that I don't expect to live to see.

[TK421]

246. If we ever live to see it...I know where we can get some awesome strawberries

and ice! :-)

[TonyMontana]

195. The vegetarian was the one making the argument

She was the one who cared about what other people put in their mouth. And no, I don't think all vegetarians think the same way, but a lot of them do it for reasons of morality and animal rights, and this particular girl I was arguing with was making that argument.

And I simply pointed out to her, and in the OP, the reasons for the absurdity of that argument. I see people talking about environmental reasons, dietary reasons, factory farms, etc. But that's not what this girl said to me, and that's what I'm talking about in the OP.

There is absolutely nothing morally wrong with killing animals for food. That's all

I also see a lot of "live and let live" arguments, and I agree. But it's not the meat eaters who have a problem with vegetarians. It's the other way around. They make the moral argument against eating meat, but they can't really back it up.

[TK421]

226. Look at the title of your OP....this kind of thing is bound to excite quite a few DU'ers here

and others, but my point stands: Let everyone eat the way they want to eat, no matter what it is, and stay the FUCK out of my business...I simply will not allow you to tell me what I can or cannot eat...it is THAT fucking simple, and this goes BOTH WAYS, people.. ( meat-eaters and vegetarians ) and I'm not looking to cater to either party here

Your OP states that you don't understand vegetarians...well, how much effort have you put into understanding them? I have friends who are vegetarians and you know what? at first I thought it was odd..until I tried some things they brought to cookouts and they were pretty tasty. There are plenty of veggie alternatives I have tried that I simply do not care for, and will never have again, regardless of the company I keep...but I will be polite about it and say " No thank you ".

I see this war being played out on DU almost every fucking day, and I think most of us here have become numb to it...it just never really ends well. It's like ( but NOT the same thing as ) condemning someone for the brand of toilet-paper they use...it is really pointless.

[peoli]

106. it would be amazing if half of the world thought about the impact of their food choices.

for health and environmental reasons. the planet would be a different place and we would all be better off.

[nadinbrzezinski]

110. No there is nothing wrong but there is an environmental

reason for REDUCING your consumption of meat.

It takes a lot less energy to raise corn than to raise the cow that eats that corn.

It also is less damaging to the environment.

Why the UN is actually recommending that developed countries curb their animal protein consumption.

Part of the argument is that raising one cow takes pasture that could otherwise be used to raise seeds for human consumption.

In reality we have hit a wall in food production, and this is a way to expand calories world wide.

Now morality has nothing to do with this by the way. But we have reduced our animal protein consumption to recommended standards. You know like 4\ oz of meat or chicken per meal, or an oz of cheese.

On a side effect, it's made our health status better. And those are the recommended consumption levels anyway.

Oh and for the record, we have Nanday conure that LOVES his steak.

[stuntcat]

124. yah, the biggest reason

The energy and food that's wasted, and the pollution of billions of tons of waste from the animals' hell-like lives.
Our food animals eat better than many millions of people.

But oh well, since I gave up on humans I just laff heartily at all the ones who don't care to adjust their lives at all to help the future and feed the poor humans as well as they do the animals :)

[nadinbrzezinski]

130. ShH the conure might think you are talking about him

And he does like his meat...

Just not too much either.

They are, shockingly for most humans, omnivorous.

[stuntcat]

133. :gasp:

What a beautiful bird!!

[Jamastiene]

115. sigh

So, eat meat and let others not eat meat if that is what they want to do.

I fail to see the big huge deal about what others eat. It's their life, their choice what to eat. Leave them alone and enjoy your meat.

:shrug:

[handmade34]

118. if only it were that simple....

I never try to tell an individual what to eat or not eat... I do work very hard trying to get information out about how destructive large agribusiness and factory farms are for our environment.....

[Sheepshank]

120. peta'ish fundies

It's seems to me I see and hear a lot more vegetarians crapping on omnivores about their FREE CHOICE TO CHOOSE...than I see omnviros returning the favor to vegetarians. Maybe its just me. In fact, I don't ever remember reading about an omnivore that belittles, attempts to degrade, as often as those veggie puritans.

I tend to really appreciate those vegans, including those on this thread, that realize "to each his own". The others sort of strike me almost like those evangelical fundies that preach brimstone and fire and intolerance, and judge omnivores to worlds without end.

but that's just me.

[flvegan]

134. The irony of your response, considering the OP.

:rofl:

[superduperfarleft]

141. I know, right, horrible grammar, punctuation, misspellings and everything.

Nothing's funnier than someone acting like they're typing with their elbows when they're lecturing you on how veganism can cause brain damage.

[flvegan]

143. Brain damage? Dude

did you miss the economist hack that stated vegetarianism will kill you?

I'm a-scared!

[superduperfarleft]

144. But I read one book! And it confirmed my suspicions! n/t

[flvegan]

147. I just needed one call to the Weston A Price foundation.

[superduperfarleft]

149. Oh, I regularly get my information on nutrition from my dentist.

Okay, I lie. He's just this bum down the street that'll pull your teeth for $5.

[flvegan]

150. Really? See, you can get nutritional info from disgraced feminist activists

for free on the internet. Or you can foolishly buy her book.

[anarch]

121. yeah? well, nothing makes any sense to me,

Humans seem fairly pre-disposed, as a matter of their innate nature, to keep killing each other in competition over territory or resources, but should we? You know, as an ethical consideration?

In a similar vein, loads of elevators play Celine Dion, but that don't make it right.

[undeterred]

122. Humans are omnivores but we can choose not to eat meat

for ethical and health reasons.

Its not immoral to kill an animal for food if you need it, but if you don't need to kill something to survive, its hard to justify.

[damonm]

132. I can see health reasons,

but to my mind, the "ethical" reasons are nonsense. WHATEVER you eat, you take life, whether that life is animal or vegetable. To make the claim that being vegetarian or vegan has some kind of moral cachet is simply ridiculous.
Now the health argument - that is a VERY strong case for a vegetarian lifestyle. My only problem with it is that I really hate the taste and texture of most vegetables.

[undeterred]

235. So there is no difference between taking the life of a carrot and a horse?

Vegetables have a lot of different textures, and there are many ways to prepare them.

[damonm]

274. Taking life is taking life, period.

[begin_within]

127. What if I simply don't like meat?

Does that make no sense to you?

[damonm]

129. Makes perfect sense to me...

Vegetables and I don't get along well, either - perhaps we should talk...

[Codeine]

135. No. That doesn't make sense to Tony Montana.

Knock that shit off, immediately.

[Politicub]

136. I've lost 35 pounds since I've become a vegetarian

and have gone from obese to overweight per the BMI chart. It was the right choice for me, but it sounds like it's not your thing. Whatever.

Glad to know that about the dolphins.

[KurtNYC]

138. ah,... so you have discovered the holy grail of flame bait...

welcome to the middle of the DU universe my son...

I suppose you already know that the other, although less fodder-some, topics for 100% flame bait and 50+ posts, are:

- circumcision
- veganism
- pitbulls
and
- rural / subscription-based fire departments

Now knock it off. ;-)

[ulaes]

139. Wow

[The Straight Story]

142. meh. I still stand by something called choice (sadly, many on the left and the right hate choice)

your body, your choice. What you eat, where you drink (and/or smoke), etc

[Chan790]

152. Do you really want to drag up the tobacco flamewar again?

Because if you do, it'd just be a lot easier for me to get on a bus to Winston-Salem and paraquat the tobacco fields. Nip that shit at the roots, so to speak.

[flvegan]

153. A bus? Buy and drive an H2.

We're talking choices here!

[The Straight Story]

166. you don't seem to like the principle of choice when applied to something you would not choose

when else are you anti-choice?

[damonm]

159. simply put...

:bounce: :toast: :yourock: :toast: :bounce:

THIS.

For The Win.

[RagAss]

146. Has DU come to this?

I remember when we had legendary OPs to reply to.

:hurts:

[Chan790]

148. Yes, clearly.

Because humankind is a creature totally incapable of reason who is slave to its' basest biological desires.

That, right there, is a logical gap you could drive a cattle-hauler through.

[rrneck]

151. I'm a vegatarian at home

because I don't like cleaning up the grease. If I eat out I'll usually eat meat, but not always. That seems to reduce my meat intake a whole lot.

We wouldn't have to worry about it so much if we still had to chase it down with a pointed stick to get it.

[XemaSab]

154. I think of it this way:

Animals in the wild do their own thing. Maybe they get eaten the first week out of the den, or maybe they make twenty round trips between Alaska and Antarctica.

Humans also do their own thing. Some kids die of disease when they are three, and some live to be a hundred and have ten kids.

Humans are not allowed to own other humans because for one person to determine what that person does with their life is not acceptable.

Similarly, for a human to determine that an animal should be in a cage for literally its entire life seems wrong to me.

Note well that animals that are hunted and SOME free-range animals are pretty much allowed to do their own thing before they get killed and eaten. I have much less of a problem with this than I have with keeping animals captive in confined spaces.



Consider these scenarios:

If a kid kept a hamster in a cage and took the hamster out once a month and the hamster lived to the age of 5, would you not say that the human was being selfish?

So if a person kept a chicken in a tiny cage for two months and then killed the chicken, made a sub-standard baked chicken, ate half of it in 10 minutes (while thinking that it was poorly cooked), and threw the rest away, would you not also say that the chicken really got a raw deal there?


I'm not opposed to eating all meat, I'm opposed to thoughtless cruelty for the sake of a McDonald's hamburger eaten in the car during stoplights.

Capisce?

[apocalypsehow]

155. It makes no sense to anyone truly a part of the larger human experience of life, joy, & cuisine.

That said, I doubt you'll change many minds on either side of the divide.

[ThomasQED]

193. The joy of force-feeding geese until their necks tear so you can eat diseased livers? (foie gras)

Yes, haute cuisine is truly a thing of beauty.

And obviously a vegan meal cannot have any joy in it at all, and vegetarians dislike life so much they refuse to ingest it.

In case it's not clear, your comment is possibly the most ridiculous one in the whole post. It really deserves an OP of its own so that everyone will understand that you can only be a human, joyful and eat if you eat dead animals.

[apocalypsehow]

196. You couldn't have made my point for me more if you'd tried. And your spittle-flecked reply wasn't

really trying - it was screeching with pixels. Thanks for helping out. :thumbsup:


Edit: typo.

[ThomasQED]

237. I was wrong. This was the most ridiculous post.

[apocalypsehow]

238. LOL - twice you've affirmed my position by your replies.

Those reduced to silly name-calling automatically forfeit the debate. Your concession is duly noted - thanks for playing. :thumbsup:

[superduperfarleft]

240. Seriously, don't bother. n/t

[Renew Deal]

201. Have you ever had foie gras?

It's delicious.

[Name removed]

202. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proteus_lives]

158. Who gives a shit?

I eat meat and I don't care about the eating habits of others.

If I didn't eat meat I still wouldn't care.

Carnivore shows me a picture of rotting veggies: "Let's get a salad."

Vegan shows me a picture of a sweet innocent calf about to be slaughtered: "Let's go get some ribs."

I don't give a shit what other people put on their plate.

[TK421]

242. This is almost exactly what I said upthread, and how I feel about this crap n/t

[Taitertots]

161. Put on the asbestos suit

"she said to me that nobody has the right to kill an animal for any reason"
Give her some tape worms and see just how inconsistent she is. Oh, wait that only applies to animals they like. Not lice, stomach worms, spiders, cockroaches, chiggers.....

[DailyGrind51]

163. If early hominids had remained herbivores, they never would have developed larger brains!

Only the protein available in meat promoted brain development and the evolution of more sophisticated thought processes.

http://berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/99legacy/6-14-1999a.html

[old mark]

164. Judgung from some of the "arguments" against meat here, that larger brain thing

is not universal.

Remember, Hitler was a vegetarian.

mark

[shockra]

169. "Hitler was a vegetarian"

That really should be on the Defensive Omnivore Bingo Board.

[superduperfarleft]

174. It is.

Of course, Stalin was an atheist meat-eater.

[DailyGrind51]

232. Hey, he was smart enough to kick Hitler's ass and con both Churchill and FDR!

Not that I'm an admirer of the guy who enslaved my relatives in Poland, you understand!

[Confusious]

271. BOTH hitler and stalin had mustaches

So ergo.... anyone with a mustache is Hitler/Stalin.

They also wore clothes... SO ergo, anyone who wears clothes is Hitler/Stalin.

[DailyGrind51]

273. The DOBB?

[quaker bill]

170. There is no requirement for it to do so.

The world and the people in it are not constrained by your sensibilities anymore than mine. Adjusting to that reality makes things generally go better.

[HopeHoops]

177. McMeat isn't food. Hunters kill real food. I've been vegetarian for over 20 years.

At least hunters take responsibility for what they eat. Factory meat is abusive to the livestock and really doesn't qualify for food - gross shit, that.

[TheManInTheMac]

181. What makes no sense to me

is posters who complain about the dietary choices of others. Was this person you were arguing with attempting to deny you entry to a KFC or McDonald's? If so, shove them out of your way or call the cops. Otherwise, live your own life the way you want and let them live theirs the way they want.

Hell, man, I LOVE meat. I've known a lot of vegetarians and vegans and I don't go around picking a fight with them. And I can't remember a time IRL when one of them got on a moral high horse around me. They typically do it for health reasons. If the subject is broached at all it usually has to do with how to ensure they are getting the proper amounts of protein and fat.

[Renew Deal]

198. Thank you for standing up and speaking the truth.

Don't let those lettuce loving ninnies try to intimidate you. Animals are part of the human diet, as they should be.

[superduperfarleft]

204. TRUTH TO POWER!!!!!111ONE

[JNelson6563]

200. We are omnivores.

Hence the incisors.

Being able to eat such a broad range of things is why we have done so well as a species.

Julie

[demmiblue]

216. Lol... BINGO!

:rofl:

[Yeahyeah]

206. Mah toofs were made for chompin on critters.

[Stargleamer]

213. "But animals eat other animals. . ."

c'mon don't you have a mind? One capable of thinking and making moral choices while other nonhuman animals have to rely on instinct? You have a choice, they do not.

Don't animals have their own lives to live, before you quickly dismiss reasons against killing them, in a paragraph or two?

Can't people, despite their molars live perfectly healthy lives as vegetarians? You can at least look at the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition before dismissing it out of hand.

[Cali_Democrat]

219. Way to go Tony!

[Lorien]

222. Sorry. He's even less clever than that moron. nt

[Lorien]

220. If humanity is to survive it's the ONLY thing that makes sense

I doubt if you'll read this, but you should. Everyone should: http://www.mcspotlight.org/media/reports/beyond.html

[stuntcat]

257. nice, ty

bookmarking, TY

[gauguin57]

224. Pass the popped vegetable, so I can enjoy the fireworks.

I'm mostly vegetarian (pescatarian), and my biggest issue is how industrial farms treat livestock before they're eaten.

When animals kill other animals out in nature, they don't trap them in cages so small the other animal can't stand up, etc. etc.

[ZombieHorde]

228. "First of all, animals kill other animals in order to eat. It's just nature."

A lot of animals rape. Is that different?

Many animals eat their own young; how do you feel about humans eating their own young?

Do you really think we should use other species as an example for our own ethics?

[Codeine]

233. Taking lions as my cue

I killed both of my girlfriend's kids when we got together so as to ensure I would waste none of my effort protecting someone else's genetic spawn.

[superduperfarleft]

241. I'll do you one better.

I was locked in a room with my sister for a number of months, so because we were both unaltered, we proceeded to have wild incestuous sex, and ended up with a couple of litters. Unfortunately, only three of the brother-sister love children survived. (I admit, I did eat one, but the rest were totally not my fault).

[blondeatlast]

255. Dear brother! Of all the places we could encounter each other after all these years! nt

[woo me with science]

231. You really ought to be ashamed of yourself.

For the sake of the cats, put away the laser pen.

Now.

[Nye Bevan]

248. Does this person wear leather shoes? Does he or she have any leather furniture?

Does their car have leather seats? If so, he or she is a hypocrite.

In any case, who gave us the right to brutally kill innocent plants?

[flvegan]

253. Vegetarian, not vegan.

And your second statement is too stupid to address.

[Nye Bevan]

256. Vegetarians who own anything leather are hypocrites.

Additionally, vegans owning furniture made out of cheese would also be hypocrites.

[flvegan]

259. No they aren't.

And once again, your second statement...to stupid to address.

[Nye Bevan]

275. So why is it OK to kill animals to rip their skin off to wear (or sit on)

but not OK to kill them to eat?

[Flaxbee]

249. If you want to eat meat, then it is your absolute responsibility to demand that

food animals are treated HUMANELY, treated well during their lives, and slaughtered humanely.

What we do now is horrible, inhumane, hideous, and uncivilized.

Humans don't need to eat so goddamn much meat. Eat less, and demand that what you eat has not had a miserable, filthy, sad and pitiful life.

[Panaconda]

251. Many animals are killed

to transport an avocado 2,000 miles to support the December whims of the Montanan vegetarian.

And then there's the killer tomato:

Attack of the Killer Tomato, by Peter Bahouth

...

http://www.susandoreydesigns.com/insights/killer-tomato.html

[stevenleser]

252. Say Hello To My Little ALERT!

Nice Flamebait "Tony"

[Ken Burch]

254. Oh boy....

:popcorn:

(with margerine, of course).

[TK421]

260. Do you add salt to yours? I do!

because its not healthy...I do it:)

[Ken Burch]

261. Yeah, it's not healthy, but it's also not meat.

I like to use this olive oil margarine I've found-It's got a really great flavor.

[TK421]

262. Olive oil margarine? I've never heard of that, but I would like to try it

you know what brand that is so I can look for it? It wasn't that long ago I picked up Hellmans Mayo with olive oil, and its pretty damn good!

[Ken Burch]

263. Here's one brand.

[TK421]

264. I know Fleischmanns, and I'll keep an eye out for it..thanks Ken!

:)

[Ken Burch]

265. Glad to help.

n/t.

[Robeson]

266. Nevermind. Not even worth it.