Chilean Miners - better off in Chile or USA?

[howaboutme]

I would suggest that every miner in the USA ponder this one simple thought.

Would their fate be better off under a "for profit" US corporation such as Massey Energy, or would they fare better under a government owned mining corporation as in Chile?

If their fate was under corporations such as Massey Energy, the first decision by the CEO would have been do we continue to drill more and determine that they are still alive, or do we declare them dead after a week and save the costs of rescue?

Would USA corporations have put forth the extra effort of Chile to rescue these miners? My belief is they'd have been declared dead long ago so that the CEO made a bigger bonus. No one would ever know.

I'm sad to post this but believe that in the USA everything has come down to money.

[MineralMan]

1. There have been some pretty dramatic mine rescues here, too.

You may just have forgotten them.

[Fumesucker]

2. Good point, recced..

[MineralMan]

9. Actually, it's a very poor point, and poorly researched.

Mine safety in private mines like this one in Chile is horrible. Much worse than in the United States. Apparently you haven't looked into it either.

I've unrecommended this OP for lack of factuality and USA-bashing in general.

If you don't know anything about something, you shouldn't say anything. That's what my father taught me. That's what I do. Please see my other posts in this thread and visit the links. Knowledge is good.

[Fumesucker]

22. The point is that large corporations such as BP and Massey don't give a damn about safety..

I have worked in the oil field and have first hand experience with energy corporation safety practices, I'd rather take my chances with a government run system any day. The slapdash and cavalier attitude toward safety when it got in the way of production at the Deepwater Horizon is in my experience par for the course.

The specific case may not be true and I suppose I was foolish to rec it without knowing the details, I allowed my personal experience to color my judgement on this, unlike some people I am capable of admitting error.

ETA: Kudos BTW, for managing to get a post in that was free of snark for once.

[treestar]

46. That is why they are subject to regulation

We don't know about Chile. Does it have stricter regulations? Why would its capitalists be any kinder?

The Bush Administration would only passively enforce regulations, or barely do it.

[MineralMan]

3. See the website of the US Mine Rescue Association

http://www.usmra.com/

They have lots of details about mine rescues around the world. The US doesn't do badly. It's good to research before posting, I think.

You're way off-base with this one.

[Divernan]

26. OP touched a nerve and you over reacted.

Given your handle, "MineralMan", and your knowledgeable link to a Mine Rescue Association, I get the impression that you got on the defensive at the suggestion that the US Mining Corporations and the federal govt. are not doing all they could do to protect the safety of US miners. It is a fact that the number of people working as mine rescuers would be reduced by the use of robots, who could do the job faster and with a much higher success rate. Hurts to be bested and replaced by technology. The OP merely asked people to consider the situation. It is certainly appropriate to post specific data about mine safety. Your personal attack on him was way out of line.

[Hekate]

41. Where was the overreaction? MM linked to a website on mine rescues, and links to other factual info

Isn't that what we're supposed to do here?

Incidentally, the OP really is an anti-American piece. The biggest problem the US faces at the moment is the de-regulation brought about by Republicans since Reagan, with special mention of Dubya. At least we HAD regulations, and hope to again. Obama's administration is moving forward in refunding and revitalizing OSHA, especially on the inspection side.

"Developing" nations, not so much. The People's Republic of China has scandalous worker health and safety records, including for mines.

It's not who owns the mines -- it's who writes the regulations, hires sufficient inspectors, and above all enforces the regs. Mining is one of the most hazardous jobs in this or any country.

As for the rescue work, even mine owners who cut corners on safe practices over and over again will seemingly go all out for rescues, especially since the news media are all over any such story.

Just my observations.

Hekate

[Divernan]

42. His replies accuses OP of "hating all things American" & being nasty.

Not exactly reasoned discourse.

And the mine owners cannot "go all out for rescues" since they don't have the effective technology on site during the small time window typically available. You used the right adjective, "seemingly" and correctly see that the presence of the news media is what motivates mine owners. That is because the mine owners do not like the harsh light of publicity on their sleazy operations. And can't you see, that THAT is the precise value of discussing the mine owners'/corporate practices on the internet.

According to your logic, all corporate malfeasance should be laid only at the feet of the government agencies. Following that line of thought, we should not criticize any of the Biggies, i.e., Big Pharma, Big Oil, Big Health Insurance, etc.

Guess you're just fine with BP's continuing coverup about dispersants, etc.

[Hekate]

45. "According to your logic"-- I think not. Your line about BP et al. reeks of an organic...

... barnyard compound.

Hekate

[MineralMan]

44. You are incorrect.

My screen name refers to my former business, which was selling mineral specimens to collectors all over the world. My only connection with mining is that both of my grandfathers worked in the Magma copper mine in Superior, AZ, but that was before I was born. My response was based on the erroneous and contrived claim by the OP that mine safety was better in Chile than in the United States. That is simply not true, and my links were designed to point that out. Thank you for your comment.

[MineralMan]

4. The technology used in the Quecreek Mine Rescue in

Pennsylvania is what is being used in Chile. In fact, there are U.S. mine rescue experts and technicians down there supervising the rescue efforts. Why? Because U.S. mine rescue technology is the best in the world.

Again, you failed to do your research. Have there been mine disasters where all lives were lost? You bet. There have been such mine disasters everywhere mining takes place. Sometimes, there is no rescue possible. Sometimes the miners get lucky and find a safe haven until they are rescued.

I realize that trashing the United States is popular with some, but at least do your research. Chilean mining is far more dangerous than mining here, because there are few regulations and miners are generally considered expendable. It's clear that you know little about mining or you wouldn't have posted what you did.

Yes, conditions in mines in the U.S. are not what they should be. Compared to the rest of the world, though, they're great. You just don't read about most mine disasters in other countries. Here, you hear about every single one.

[Divernan]

30. What good is technology if it is not timely required at ALL mines?

It's like bragging that the US is number one in some advanced medical procedure - but said procedure is only available to the extremely well insured/wealthy.

[MineralMan]

5. Here's an interesting story on that mine in Chile and the lack of safety

measures in the mine. You might want to read it:

http://www.tucsonsentinel.com/nationworld/report/083110_chile_mine

[howaboutme]

23. You made your point

US capability is still valid on many fronts and I say that as someone familiar with and from the coal regions of the USA. My main concern is still about corporate greed versus preventing accidents and saving lives, and I'm willing to say that I hope lives will always win out in the USA versus Chile.

[sufrommich]

6. Those ugly Americans.........

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/10/09/jeff-hart-chile-mine-dril_n_757060.html

[Divernan]

43. So it was a US private contractor who drills for wells in Afghanistan

who came to help - NOT anyone from the mining industry or who is a professional first responder to mining disasters.

Cause his US employer outsourced him to Afghanistan.

[hack89]

7. They worked for a small, private mining company

with an extremely poor safety record.

The mine is owned by Empresa Minera San Esteban, which has a poor safety record and has suffered a series of mishaps, with several workers being killed in recent years.<5><8> Between 2004 and 2010 the company received 42 fines for breaching safety regulations.<9> The mine was shut down after an accident in 2007 when relatives of a miner who had died sued company executives, but the mine was reopened in 2008,<10> despite failing to comply with all regulations, a matter still under investigation according to mining committee Senator Baldo Prokurica.<6> Due to budget constraints, there were only three inspectors for Atacama Region's 884 mines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Copiap%C3%B3_mining_accident

[Hannah Bell]

15. another ref says it's a "multi-billion dollar company".

Ivan Toro ex-trabajador de Minera San José que perdió una pierna, relató la actitud de la multimillonaria empresa, que siempre fue evasiva a la hora de ayudar. Ivan Toro ex-employee of Minera San José who lost a leg, said the attitude of the multibillion-dollar company, which was always evasive when it comes to help. “Dijeron que me iban ayudar a mi ya mi señora, pero fue muy poca la ayuda que recibí de ellos”, enfatiza. "They said I would help me and my wife, but was very little help I got from them," he says.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://www.laalternativa.org/noticias/5730&ei=aA6xTNafMYqWsgP6seHaDA&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=9&sqi=2&ved=0CD0Q7gEwCA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dempresa%2Bminera%2Bsan%2Besteban%26hl%3Den%26prmd%3Div

[hack89]

16. In either case, a private company with a poor safety record

and a history of disregarding their workers.

[Divernan]

24. Like Massey Energy! Or Consolidated Coal!

nt

[hack89]

25. The OP thought that the Chilean miners worked for a government owned mining corporation

I was merely pointing out that he/she was wrong.

[Divernan]

27. You made a valid point, upon which I elaborated.

nt

[howaboutme]

39. You are correct

I had heard that it was Chilean govt mining company. It was pointed out I was wrong.

[Cleita]

8. The mine that collapsed has a poor safety record in

regard to the stability of their tunnels and it is privately owned. The standards set by the Codelco or Chilean nationalized mines is much higher than you have in the USA.

[stray cat]

10. Are you disappointed more miners don't die in the US to rescue dead miners?

People have given their lives to save other miners in the US - you dishonor their sacrifice and those who fly in immediately from all areas of the country to try to rescue victims. What have you ever done?

[MineralMan]

12. Excellent point. It is, in fact, one of those Americans who flew

down to Chile and successfully got that rescue bore drilled. It was his skill and experience that did the trick.

This OP is just a nasty attack against all things American. But, when the shit hits the fan, it is American expertise and technology that gets the miners rescued.

Thanks for posting.

[howaboutme]

17. I agree

but disagree with a corporate culture where money and profits often come before lives. That's what America was in the early 1900s with robber baron mining cos, and what it has become again in the post 2000s. I frankly am not sure that US mining corporations would have put forth the effort of the Chileans, not that we don't have the ability. Hopefully as a nation we would have overcome but I'm not so sure because of will.

[Divernan]

29. OP never said anything of the kind;his concerns were with mining Corporations

Take a look at the personal profiles of many of the attack responders on this thread - their hobbies are simulation war games and reading comics? Why don't you ask them for their bona fides?

There is a world of difference between the greedy corporate owners/managers who cause disasters, and the rescuers who respond. I worked on some lawsuits involving very large, high rise construction projects, and I can tell you that the annual budgets planned on a certin number of workers getting killed on the job every year. It is certainly valid to hold governments responsible for failing to make and enforce safety regulations, and owners responsible for failing to follow said regulations. That can certainly be done without in any manner criticizing the rescue workers.

[Hannah Bell]

31. as of july, 31 us miners have died this year in mines owned by massey energy alone.

5 deaths per month.

maybe massey should hire some of that high-tech help.

10 other US miners had died as of june as well.

all the deaths -- in massey mines & the others -- occured in non-union mines.

hey, maybe they don't need those high-tech guys, maybe they could just follow safety regs & procedures, as union mines -- both here & in chile -- do.

in both cases, the data shows union mines = safer mines, far & away.

[Divernan]

32. Exactly! It needs to be timely available at all mining operations.

[stray cat]

11. Its really not suppose to be a progressive value to insult everything in America contrary to facts

[MineralMan]

13. +100!

[Divernan]

35. But it IS a progressive value to point out how corporations blow off worker safety.

[Codeine]

14. Upon reflection

[HughMoran]

19. "May the fail be with you"

:rofl:

[Better Today]

18. Even if there's no long term evidence to support it, I admit, that was my first thought.

But first thoughts are shallow, and I'm just glad it turned out well.

[proteus_lives]

20. What a stupid OP.

[Divernan]

21. US mine owners have refused to invest in state of the art rescue robots.

Last spring I went to a presentation by Dr. William "Red" Whittaker, Director of and Professor at Carnegie Mellon University's Robotics Institute. He is the person who designed the robots used in the Three Mile Island inspections/clean-ups, and was called to assist in Chernobyle before there was even a public announcement of that disaster. So while I am no expert, he certainly is.

He explained to us via video, diagrams and animation, the typical, extremely complex mazes of coal mine tunnels and the dangers to both stranded miners and rescuers of poisonous gasses, explosive vapors and unsafe tunnels.
In a typical mining disaster, a group of miners in the aftermath of an explosion are trapped deep underground. Following established procedures, they are hunkered down in a refuge chamber, which means they have air, water and food for a few days. Their best chance is to stay put and wait for help, but the clock is ticking. Rescue teams are painfully slow, forced to move at a crawling pace by the need for extreme caution, so that often the miners die before help reaches them.
The (computerized) mining rescue robots can find the miners in a matter of hours, rather than days. Dr. Whittaker specifically referenced some recent US mining disasters where miners who died COULD have been saved, were these robots available. Unfortunately, there are only a handful of them in the country - because our government does not require them as safety equipment, and the vast majority of private mine owners/operators will not pay to provide them. Evidently those who do have them are not going to lend them out, because the whole point of having them is that they be instantly available in that small window of time for rescue, should a disaster occur in THEIR mines.

I can't speak to the safety precautions in use at/required by other countries. But living in coal mining country, and having a grandfather who was a miner, and a Dad who was a miner for several years during the depression(even though he had an engineering degree, since there were no engineering jobs at that time), I have followed news about mining disasters. There is no question in my mind that the US could do much better in setting and ENFORCING mine safety standards. The country/government should do this, not because they have been shamed into it by comparison to other countries, but because working men and women should not have to daily risk their lives to make a living when technology is readily available to save them.

[flamingdem]

28. The miners are sueing the mine company, btw nt

[Freetradesucks]

33. You have got to be kidding me...

If this had happened in the United States, those guys would have been out a month ago. Jesus Christ, take your anti US hatred and stick it where the sun don't shine. I'm so sick of this bullshit.

"The CEO would have declared them dead to make a bigger bonus"! ????

Are you in the fucking sixth grade? Why am I even posting here?

This site really is on the downward spiral.......

[Divernan]

34. You have no real world experience with the bottom-line importance to corporations

And I refer you to the other post re the 31 dead miners in the past year, just among Massey's employees.

If you think being concerned for worker safety or attacking corporate greed is "anti-US hatred", you are on the wrong website, and you certainly ask an appropriate question, i.e, "Why are you posting here?"

[Freetradesucks]

36. Every mining accident has vastly different

circumstances. The fact that these men were able to survive for several weeks in Chile, and other men died in an accident here in the US have nothing to do with each other at all.

We do have more stringent mining safety laws than Chile. If they are not being enforced, that is the responsibility of our federal government.

[Divernan]

37. Since we've never had a mining disaster like Chile's, where

do you get off saying "we'd have had them out of there a month ago." And as I documented in an early post, much more sophisticated safety equipment is available to US mining companies - but they choose not to reduce their obscene profits by investing in it.

[howaboutme]

38. I wish I was as confident in the belief

that international mining corporations in America will spend what it takes to do an extensive search and then rescue Americans trapped in mines, as was done in Chile, but I'm not.

We in the USA have the ability but those making decisions have far too much greed.

[Panaconda]

40. Neither

Displacement of communities

The small village of Palo Ralos was demolished to make way for the San Martin mine. Fourteen families were relocated to a new settlement with the same name 900 metres from the mine. Nine years after relocation nine families have not received legal titles to their new land and houses from Goldcorp.

...

http://bario-neal.com/bn/blog/?cat=4