One thing I think the entire Meek/Crist/Rubio fiasco has illustrated is that...

[Cleobulus]

moderate and "realistic" Dems are no more loyal to the party than the Left they accuse of disloyalty so often.

I do find this amusing, I mean, yes its strategic voting, but by how much? What assurances are there that Crist would be a lot better than Rubio? Rubio is described as a nightmare, but he's going to be one guy in a group of 100, and a Junior member at that. I thought its more important to keep a majority in the Senate, something that a Meek win could assure, but neither a Rubio or Crist win would assure. Crist, even if he caucused with the Democrats, which is doubtful, could easily switch back to the Republicans, Meek wouldn't do that.

It seems odd that so many here can get away with advocating for an outright Republican(Independent), and then still keep a straight face when they criticize the left for hurting the Democratic party's chances in this election. Who is hurting whose chances here? Crist is the spoiler, not Meek.

[hfojvt]

1. you apparently use some strange definitions

here's the way Dave Leip tracks the Florida race

http://uselectionatlas.org/POLLS/SENATE/2010/polls.php?fips=12&class=3

except for the outliers of Research 2000 polls, the Republican has been shown with a 10 - 15 point lead in the polls. Then I guess there was a primary in April that Crist lost and he decided to run as an independent. Since then, Meek has run as a distant 3rd place, never rising above 25% while for a while there Crist was winning until early August. Crist cannot be seen as the spoiler since there is no indication that Meek could win.

Although I am surprised that Florida would be so dark red. To make a Kansas analogy. Suppose Tiahrt had won the Senate primary and the more moderate Moran had run as an independent. I would consider that to be an excellent opportunity for Democrats to win, even with a relative unknown like Lisa Johnston. Maybe not though, she is polling very bad and Lee Jones got beaten quite soundly in 2004 by 69% to 27.4%. So we would need a stronger candidate like former Congressman Jim Slattery who got 36.4% of the vote in 2008.

I guess I would be too optimistic to throw in with the moderate Republican, even in Kansas, but given the polling, I think it is absurd to call the moderate Republican the 'spoiler'.

[readmoreoften]

5. Uh no. The legit Democratic primary winner is not a "3rd Party"

[Dappleganger]

6. Crist is clearly the spoiler.

Or would you rather just ignore the fact that we have a democrat altogether?

[mdmc]

24. sad that OFA / DLC couldn't find a "D" to run with a chance

Its like the GOP in NYS..

[hfojvt]

36. it is, but that is kinda funny too

because when the GOP has no-name candidates like Angle and O'Donnell, they are immediately considered viable. For one reason, because it is expected that they will have funds. From big business and the billionaires club. The FDP and the DSCC should have enough funds to make any Democratic candidate viable in Florida.

[DonCoquixote]

2. True that

However, the reason people bend so much to the moderates is not because they are rewarded for being loyal, but feared because they ARE SO DAMNED DISLOYAL. Allow me to explain.

Two sorts of people finally put Obama over the top in 2008. There were the hard left, who had enough of both Bush, and the moderates, who were best represented by Clinton. The second group were the center/Reagan democrats who voted the way they did because they simply could NOT swallow the sheer incompetence of Bush. These folks were MAD about Clinton losing, for various reasons, but namely that they were not looking forward, but backward, hoping Clinton could restore what they thought of as Bill's Golden age, when they were dominant.

The election happened, and sure enough, many of these folk were Blue Dogs. The Blue Dogs, especially the Senate, knew that is was far easier to slam Obama than to actually get work done, so they did. This fed the vanity of the Centrists. They learned that they could be a bunch of bratty children, always ready to say "I won't play Ball with that punk Obama!" Also, the media fed into the idea, saying "If you do not make those White people happy, you will be screwed!" So, like diners at a restaurant where some minority waitress is yelled at, they keep whistling and yelling, and make a point about how they do not even need to leave a tip.

So, in effect, we are stuck rewarding some really crappy, immature behavior on the part of people that scream about how mature they are. They keep saying "it's Obama's fault!" yet they defend the very Blue Dog Senators like Landrieu and Nelson that do the damage.

[xchrom]

3. DU and the Florida race has been amusing to me. Nt

[readmoreoften]

4. They're all 2000 Bush voters who "changed" after 2004.

Remember all those WELCOME ABOARDS with a million recs from lifelong Republicans who converted. Well guess what? They're still here. And they're perfectly fine with driving the country to the right. They're Republicans who want to use the Democratic Party to fight the Tea Party.

[grantcart]

7. I would question the premise of your argument.

At DU the 'moderate', 'realistic' or 'Solidarity' Democrats are frequently identified as members of the Barack Obama Group.

The overwhelming majority of that group (if not 100%) support Meeks for Senator.

The arguments I have heard from a few DUers about supporting Crist were based in part on the premise tht Meek was not liberal enough to risk a seat for.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hekate]

49. + 1000. The argument has been at DU for weeks, but not from the BOG

Pragmatic Dems want to keep Dem seats. Funny how that works.

Hekate

[Motown_Johnny]

9. how is it that allowing an (R) a win in a major state like FL is good for our party?

It simply strengthens the 'puke machine and makes our job harder the next time around.


I am not taking sides on this issue (since I don't live in FL) but I do understand the logic of playing for a "tie" instead of taking the loss.


From their point of view, anything that weakens the other side strengthens us and it is a reasonable point of view IMO.

[Cleobulus]

10. There are two R's in the race. one is...

Pretending to be independent. You seem to have forgotten that.

[Motown_Johnny]

11. then you think Lieberman is a (D)?

I don't


he left the party


Crist left the party



I haven't forgotten anything. I just can see that some people are choosing the lesser evil. It is a reasonable point of view.



Remember this 2 years from now when Sen. Rubio is out there campaigning for other extreme candidates in your home state. Then again 4 years from now when Pres. Obama is trying to get reelected and we are trying to win back House and Senate seats.


We would be in better shape in the next cycles if Rubio lost.

[Cleobulus]

12. Crist makes no promises on who he will caucus with...

There's a better than even chance it will be with the Republicans. How much damage do you think that will do to the Democrats?

[Motown_Johnny]

13. less than Rubio

[Cleobulus]

15. And that excuses it. how much less damage would it be to have the...

Spoiler win the race? I could easily see more damage done through Crist. Being labeled the "reasonable" Senator means enjoying wider support from the electorate. Making Democratic challenges that much harder. Rubio could easily turn into a one term Senator who ends up being so right wing he will end up alienating most voters.

[Motown_Johnny]

21. that is one possibility. 6 years from now Crist might be harder for a (D) to beat

It is also possible that Crist stays in the center and ends up voting with the (D)s more than blue dogs that call themselves Democrats


I can't tell you what the future will bring. I am simply saying that the people who think Rubio would be much worse for us than Crist have a reasonable point. The accusations made in the OP are false.

[Cleobulus]

28. What's false about it? You either support the Democratic party...

And its candidates or you don't.

[Motown_Johnny]

37. so then in your opinion.. voting for a blue dog dem that will vote with the (R)s over half the time

is better than voting for an (I) who would vote with the (D)s half the time?


The people you accuse of being disloyal are doing what they think is best for getting Democratic Party priorities through Congress. They know that Crist will sometimes vote with the Democrats. They know that Rubio will be a member of the party of "HELL NO!".


If you look at the big picture here they are doing what is best for the Democratic party instead of mindlessly voting for someone who can't possibly win. That isn't being disloyal to the party.

[Cleobulus]

39. At least the Blue Dog would caucus with us. n/t

[COLGATE4]

47. My party - right or wrong? That's not a constructive solution to

a complicated problem. The real issue is that many of us (especially those of us who LIVE in Florida) do not want to see Rubio a Senator. I add myself to the growing list of people who believe that he is particularly dangerous to any type of Progressive government. If (as appears virtually certain now with Meek's decision not to withdraw) Rubio is elected look forward to the rise of a young, photogenic articulate extraordinarily right-wing rethug star. In fact, I would not be at all surprised to see Rubio as their Presidential candidate in 2016. I support what's best for my party, not the party line.

[NJmaverick]

14. By your definition anyone voting Green or independent has no loyalty

[Cleobulus]

16. Yes, your point? n/t

[HughMoran]

18. The point is self-evident

[Cleobulus]

20. That some people don't support the Democratic party?

Throw me a bone here. I was pointing out hypocrisy, does any other point need to be made.

[grantcart]

23. I went three pages deep into GD and found only two threads supporting

Meeks.

They are obviously in reaction to some other threads, probably from yesterday. I didn't pay any attention to the original ones.

What is clear is that some people want to stir the shit.

Now that happens all the time all day long.

[treestar]

17. The mods have made an exception for this race

Yes, there is a difference between Crist and Rubio. Guess people who can't tell the difference between Rs and Ds have trouble seeing the difference between teabaggers and regular Rs.

Keeping teabaggers out is a good goal. It is difficult to understand the stubbornness of the left in pretending they are not a threat.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[grantcart]

25. If you have an argument against the argument then enter the thread and try and keep up

Stop trying to use it as a thread bare excuse to start a proxy war against the people you agree with.


The fact that you think that the Tea Party connection with Rubio as key to the argument seems to indicate that you may have trouble keeping up with the argument.

As I understood it the people who were making the argument were more concerned that Rubio would give the Republicans cover and legitimacy in portraying the Republican Party as being Hispanic friendly.

If you disagree with that argument then try and match the wits with the people in the thread and stop trying to start another proxy war.

[Cleobulus]

26. Even that argument isn't valid when you...

Consider the amount of anti-immigrant and anti-hispanic vitriol comes out of the Republican party and the TPers in particular. He'll attract right wing Cuban exiles, but not broad base Latino support.

[grantcart]

27. I am not making the argument

I am simply pointing out that you don't seem to be following the main argument that I saw a couple of folks articulate.


The point of your OP is to take the random statements of a couple of posters and attribute them to a large segment at DU in order to reignite a proxy war.

If you think you have arguments against those that are arguing for it then enter that thread and try and keep up.

Stop trying to start proxy wars because you can't marshal the facts and logic to make the case you favor.

[Cleobulus]

29. What proxy war? I saw some comments on other threads...

Of people saying Meek should drop out of the race and/or that they are going to vote for Crist. I also noticed that the loudest Crust supporters are some of DU's more well known centrists or "sensible liberals". I find this entire situation to be deliciously ironic. I personnally believe Crust is playing them for fools.

[grantcart]

32. Where are all of these anti Meek threads?

5 pages deep into GD and can't find a single one


Two pro Meek threads and some people are discussing the issue. I don't recognize a single name.


Another attempt by the self appointed ideological bishops to stir the shit and create ideolgical division where none exist.


When you take a particular argument against a couple of individuals and generalize it to a large group at DU it is an obvious attempt to stir shit.


You aren't trying to advance an argument on Crist vs Meeks you are trying to advance between 'liberals' and 'moderates'.


Here is the evidence

moderate and "realistic" Dems are no more loyal to the party
It seems odd that so many here can get away with advocating for an outright Republican


Your arguments are divisive, your facts don't exist, you have trouble following the point of your own OP, you don't seem to understand the main argument you are so deeply angry about but you have successfully clearly and exposed your real intention quite clearly.

[Cleobulus]

38. I didn't say threads I said posts. do you need a course...

In remedial English?

There area significant group here whose purpose is to divide the Democrats and help Republicans win. I just find the situation hilarious and disturbing at the same time.

[grantcart]

41. You didn't use either 'threads' or 'posts'

but you refer to the position of a 'significant' group.

quote

It seems odd that so many here can get away with advocating for an outright Republican

unquote


So many? An entire faction of DU?


And now you admit that there isn't a single thread on the subject but some individual posters.


How many posters do you count? 20? 10? 5?


Or are there 3?


The only thing that is hilarious is that the logic of your OP has been striped and laid bare and yet you continue to enter the thread and undermine your own position.


So let's get it straight.


You think that this "fiasco" clearly demonstrates that a "significant" group's loyalty to the Party is questionable and your evidence of this is not even one single thread started by these "leaders" of the faction you hold in such obvious hatred.

[Cleobulus]

43. Hatred seems like a rather strong word, pity is more accurate.

Never seen so many fools being taken advantage of by a single politician since GW's first "election".

[JonLP24]

40. You'd probably have to go further back

Look I don't why these Meek threads are suddenly appearing but the issue was talked about so much that I consider really talking about it beating a dead horse. People here will vote for Crist over Meek and the arguments are all the same. One example is can't let that teabagger (referring to Rubio) in the Senate.

Anyways I'm just saying the situation existed at one point and rarely brought up after that. Personally it confuses me, because advocating for third parties is not allowed but when it comes to this one race it is OK to advocate for third parties if the Dem is trailing in the polls.

[grantcart]

42. The reason that it is of importance is that some people will want to

take this as cover for advocating for third party candidates in other elections, including the President.


It is as transparent as their allegation that there is a large faction supporting Crist.

[JonLP24]

46. Perhaps

but you can see why it is frustrating to see that being so open, "I'm voting Crist, instead of Meek" when the rules are very specific on this. I'd like to see one set of rules for both R leaning Independents and D leaning I's or G's. It is frustrating for me and it isn't some type of cover thing at least for me. I like the Green running for Governor in my state but I'm voting for Goddard. He is a Democrat who does have the best chance to take Brewer down though if polling indicates, Terry is a goner.

[flamingdem]

35. Glad to hear that the DU Admin understands this special situation nt

[Name removed]

22. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Unvanguard]

30. Thanks for (mostly) engaging with us on the actual issue.

You're obviously right that a Meek victory would be far, far better than a Crist victory. The problem is that the probability of a Meek victory is so vanishingly low that it makes no difference. The choice is simply not "Meek, Crist, or Rubio." The choice is, for all practical purposes, "Crist or Rubio." A vote for Meek, like a vote for the Greens in most other elections, has the same practical effect as not voting at all.

Crist is a total opportunist, but a total opportunist is better than a right-wing ideologue like Rubio. I think, even if he caucused with the Republicans, we would see some Scott Brown-style defections toward our side--the sort of thing you would never get from someone like Rubio.

As for your comment on party loyalty, I am not a "moderate" in any sense, but I do try to be realistic, and to be absolutely clear for the future, let me say this: my consistent rule is to vote for the most left-wing of the viable candidates. Most of the time, this means voting for the Democrat. Sometimes, as in Florida right now, it means voting for an independent Republican. And sometimes, as in San Francisco in 2003, it means voting Green. "Party loyalty" is usually instrumentally useful for this kind of effort--the Democratic Party is, on the national level, the most left-wing viable alternative to the Republicans--but it is not an absolute rule.

[grantcart]

34. Well I did see your comments on the other thread

Apparently you are the famous factional leader that the OP was referring to.


As can happen I seem to have missed the threads that he was referring to.


I did go to your journal. Very interesting.


I found this excerpt from your last journal posting to be on point.



http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Unvanguard


Part of being an intellectually honest person is thinking seriously about an opponent's argument rather than caricaturing or otherwise distorting it.



Ironic isn't it.

[Cleobulus]

44. At least you are honest. I still think Crist is playing you and others like...

A fiddle. As far as your faith in defections happening, well good luck with that.

[Bluenorthwest]

31. I agree with you so very much

[JonLP24]

33. So do I

[The Backlash Cometh]

45. There's many ways of looking at this. This is my take.

You have three kinds of Democrats running to Crist. The first, people who have a way of life to protect. They're Dems who routinely barter with the other side. Old guard Dems. Let's say that for them, the mean justifies the end. The second are the racist who will never vote for a black candidate. And the third are mindless followers.

[suzie]

48. Kendrick Meek supported the white candidate in 2008 whose campaign had the racist

label associated with it to the very bitter end of the primary season.

Until late in this year, Charlie Crist had appeared with Obama far more than Kendrick Meek.

Meek still seems to value appearances with Bill Clinton far more than with Barack Obama.

And yet, you want to smear Democrats who don't support Meek as racists?

Hmmm.

[jaxx]

50. Obama makes radio ad for Kendrick Meek

by George Bennett | October 11th, 2010

Obama
Speaking over a keyboard background that makes it sound like he might burst into song at any moment, President Obama has cut a new radio ad for Democratic Senate candidate Kendrick Meek.

The president, visiting South Florida this afternoon to raise money for Democratic U.S. Rep. Ron Klein, calls Miami congressman Meek “a powerful voice for Floridians.”

Listen to the ad by clicking here. Read the script after the jump…

http://www.postonpolitics.com/2010/10/obama-makes-radio-ad-for-kendrick-meek/


If I could vote for Meeks, I would. Crist is a republican. 'nuff said.

[Stinky The Clown]

51. The love in this thread is heartwarming and palpable

To the obvious commenters in this thread: this ain't *about* you.

:eyes:

This is about the notion that it is even okay to cheer for a repubican (in sheep's clothing) win.

[blondeatlast]

52. Once again, the clown gets it. nt

[sandnsea]

53. Whoa, hold up right there

I don't know any "moderate" realistic Dems who support Crist over Meek. The realistic Dems I know wish that Florida Democrats would have been supporting Meek all along. I most certainly do. It's actually been people who are convinced Democrats can't win this year who are supporting Crist, at least that's what I've seen.