Friend: Charged Rutgers Student Molly Wei Feels Attacked

[JI7]

<Before she entered Rutgers University's prestigious six-year pharmacy program, Molly Wei was known as a sweet, quiet and smart girl with a love of mahjong.

But three weeks into her freshman year at Rutgers, Wei's life changed drastically after the suicide of fellow student Tyler Clementi.

"She feels that everyone is attacking her," a close friend tells PEOPLE after Wei and Clementi's roommate, Dharun Ravi, were charged with two counts of invasion of privacy for allegedly live streaming on the Internet a sexual encounter between Clementi and another man.

Wei's friend also says he has read Facebook comments calling her a monster and saying she deserves to burn in hell.

"She is trying to stay optimistic," he says. "She's really upset about this, she definitely feels bad, and wishes it didn't go the way it did."

According to her friend, Wei is now living the life of a fugitive. "She is going to different places," he says, "because the media is always at her house." >

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20432861,00.html?xid=rss-topheadlines

[Hannah Bell]

1. maybe she's starting to understand how it felt.

[name not needed]

2. Well boo fucking hoo for her.

:nopity:

[SoCalDem]

7. AMEN

maybe she should have thought about her bright future before she terrorized a fellow student into suicide..

I have NO sympathy for that little bitch.. and I know some will tut tut and berate me (a woman) for using "the B word" (aren't we all grown up...have to use euphemisms like toddlers, lest we get our mouths washed out with soap & sent to our rooms with no supper:(..) ..but in this case the word FITS.

[pnwmom]

8. What if all she did was let a friend from high school sit in her room

and borrow her computer?

What if all she did was let a friend from high school sit in her room and use HIS computer?

What evidence have you seen that she did anything more than that? Clementi's roommates emails don't mention her being involved at all, other than the fact that he went to her room to do whatever he did.

[TorchTheWitch]

9. Two pieces of evidence...

1) She was charged right along with her friend. Police need some kind of actual evidence - and pretty strong evidence at that - to bring charges.

2) Not even her own attorney is claiming that she had nothing to do with it. In fact, no one is... not her family, not her attorney, not her friends. It's understandable that she herself would remain silent since she's represented by counsel, but her counsel IS her voice, and her family and friends also have voices.

[WolverineDG]

20. #1 makes me laugh

seriously. Police don't need actual evidence to charge anyone with a crime. The DA can get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich ffs. I haven't done criminal defense for very long, but already I've been assigned to several girls who just happened to be with their boyfriends when the boyfriends decided to do something stupid.

Baby DAs hear about "law of parties" & want to charge everybody with some kind of crime so they can get their conviction stats up. DAs get all kinds of weird when there's a high profile case & they want to make it look like they're "tuff" on crime.

Me, I'm waiting to see what they can prove happened. If it was a case of the stupids, where she let a friend borrow her computer for a short time but didn't know or participate in what he was doing with her computer, that's one thing. Charge her with misdemeanor stupidity for not making sure the friend wasn't using her computer to harass or threaten someone. If she was sitting there, egging him on, sure, hang her.

dg

[proud2BlibKansan]

24. A 17 year old kid I taught in elementary school is sitting in state prison

He is guilty of being in his friend's car while his friend robbed a convenience store.

Surely you know that just happening to be with someone who did something stupid is a crime in our justice system.

[WolverineDG]

25. Uh, what part of my post where I talked about that did you skim over? nt

[proud2BlibKansan]

27. Just trying to point out she's in trouble even if she did just happen to be there

[WolverineDG]

38. As stated here:

If it was a case of the stupids, where she let a friend borrow her computer for a short time but didn't know or participate in what he was doing with her computer, that's one thing. Charge her with misdemeanor stupidity for not making sure the friend wasn't using her computer to harass or threaten someone.

dg

[pnwmom]

130. Being a lookout in car during a robbery is a crime.

Lending a computer to a friend hasn't been -- at least until now.

[liberalhistorian]

306. Well, what was he doing in the car while his friend robbed

the store? Did he not know what his friend was doing? Give me a break. And I don't call robbing a convenience store "something stupid". I call it a CRIME. I've been robbed at gunpoint, I know exactly how that feels, and it ain't just "something stupid." Had there been someone in a car with the fuckup who robbed me, I would have considered him just as guilty. People have to take some responsibility and not hide behind the "I didn't know" crap when it's right in front of them and they damn well should know.

WTF did Wei think Clementi's roomie was doing with and on her computer? If and when someone uses my computer, you'd better damn well believe I'm gonna know what they're using it for and what they're doing on it. Some of his twitter posts indicate that she had every idea what he was doing and did nothing whatsoever to stop it. If you knew that a friend had put a secret camera in his room, WTF would you think he was using it for, especially if he posted about it? And there are indications that she was present when he streamed the sex act live. WTF did she think that was going to do to Clementi? Fuck that bitch. And, yeah, I said bitch, because that's exactly what she is.

[TorchTheWitch]

31. if this was a case of the stupids

her attorney, her family and her friends would be screaming that to the rooftops. They aren't, and it's not like they haven't been given plenty of opportunity, but when they have the mic they only complain that she's being "terrorized".

Sorry that #2 didn't make you go all giggly.

[WolverineDG]

39. :sigh: I just love explaining things to people who just don't want to get it

You *DO* realize that the more her attorney, family, & friends talk, the more things they're giving the State to use, twist, & manipulate, right?

:eyes:

I just love how the presumption of innocence flies out the window on DU sometimes.

dg

[COLGATE4]

79. Wolverine: Trying to discuss legal questions with non-lawyers

is like trying to teach a pig to sing - you don't get anywhere and all it does it annoy the pig. (Attorney 25+ yrs).

[WolverineDG]

112. Yeah, I know

you'd think I'd learn by now.

The hypocrisy on this site gets to me, though.

dg

[Statistical]

293. Nice one.n/t

[pnwmom]

134. Remember how it flew out with the Duke case?

Whenever there is an emotional reaction to the victim -- which happened to me at first, too, in both cases -- the presumption of innocence seems to fly out the window.

[joeybee12]

228. I think that's BS...her "friend" confided in People...their lawyer is probably

trying to work the media already, and, as noted, it's the "terrorized" angle, not that she didn't do anything wrong...a good lawyer would have found a way to say she didn't do anything wrong without getting her into legal jeopardy.

[WolverineDG]

247. A good lawyer would be saying "no comment"

and if anyone was speaking for Molly, they wouldn't say something like "she didn't do anything wrong" because that opens the door for the State to ask what she did do.

dg

[pnwmom]

254. I am so glad for your legal words of wisdom in this thread.

We need them.

[Statistical]

295. Good point.

It is sad that people exclaim the virtues of "innocent until proven guilty" until the very next public case in which they provide "evidence" as to why the person is guilty until proven innocent.

Shit. She might even be guilty but until proven so in a court of law beyond a reasonable doubt nobody has the right to terrorize her.

As my mom always said "two wrongs don't make a right". If she did wrong people going of facebook and telling her to die isn't going to make it right.

[WolverineDG]

298. It shows people don't want to understand precisely what the 5th Amendment means

Any poster demanding that she or her friends say something in order to "prove" her innocence completely misses the point of the "Right to Remain Silent" & "presumption of innocence." *SHE* doesn't have to say one damn word & can be found not guilty. It is the government that has to prove its case that she's guilty of something. And so far, it appears all they've got is a text or twitter from Ravi that he was in Molly's room. There may be more evidence that they're sitting on, there may not be.

dg

[pnwmom]

253. Their lawyer wouldn't "work the media" through other college students.

Not enough control of the situation. I'm sure he's advising her not to speak with her friends about the incident. That's the only good advice he could give her.

[TorchTheWitch]

240. thank you for continuing to be insulting

and unnecessarily rude... and not just to me either. I was a paralegal for a little over ten years. Hated every minute of it. Because of holier than thou rude attorneys that talk down to people and insult them for no reason whatsoever, just like you've displayed here.

Almost every post on this board throws presumption of innocence out the window most particularly when it has anything whatsoever to do with a Republican. Somehow we've all managed to miss the tens of thousands of rude and insulting posts of yours over the years chastising everyone about it complete with sighs, eyerolling, and laughing. You've already missed quite an impressive number of posts right in this thread requiring your chastising, insulting, sighing, eyerolling replies about the presumption of innocence.

And for being an oh so exalted superior attorney you *DO* realize that you somehow missed that I never once said she was guilty or even that I believed she was? How ironic considering it's presumption of innocence that you brought up in relation to my posts in this thread... presuming me guilty of claiming or believing the girl is guilty. Curious that you chose my posts that say nothing at all about whether she's guilty or not or that I believe she was guilty or not to chastise for not applying presumption of innocence when the thread is full to bursting with posts that clearly and quite blatantly do throw presumption of innocence out the window.

And for the record, yep, I do think she's probably guilty as it gets. I also think Bush/Cheney are guilty of war crimes. You may now chastise and insult me rudely for not applying presumption of innocence to them, too.

[WolverineDG]

246. Project much?

How's the bonfire coming along?

And oh, I've dealt with paralegals such as yourself before too. I'm sure the "rude" attorneys you worked for enjoyed your company as much you enjoyed theirs.

Nice strawman, though, but I would like to point out that there is considerably more evidence out there pointing to Bush & Cheney's criminal culpability than Molly. AFAIK, there's only 1 tweet which states that Ravi went to her room. OOOOoooooo, lock her up & throw away the key!

dg

[pnwmom]

252. And his tweet says HE saw the images, not that he and Molly saw them. nt

[pnwmom]

251. You made this claim:

"Police need some kind of actual evidence - and pretty strong evidence at that - to bring charges."

In other words, you are clearly implying that there must be "pretty strong evidence" against Molly Wei. Even though the police have produced nothing.

And even though we ALL know that prosecutors can charge defendants on the basis of little or no solid evidence -- hoping to develop the evidence as they go forward.

I would have thought, based on the Duke case, that you might have developed a little more skepticism about prosecutors and how they handle high profile cases.

[LisaL]

50. Her attorney did came out with a claim that she is innocent.

[pnwmom]

135. Yeah, but he wasn't "screaming it the the rooftops"

or at least loud enough for everyone here to hear it.

[KittyWampus]

87. Wait, you're combing the news for actual supportive quotes from her friends?

Your screen name here on DU is highly ironic in this instance.

[pnwmom]

133. She's guilty because they're not satisfying YOUR view of how

they should be behaving now? Her friends, by the way, ARE saying she's innocent. AND that as soon as the images of two men appeared together on the screen, the roommate stopped the web cam. But you wouldn't believe the friends anyway, so why complain that they're not "screaming to the rooftops"?

[pnwmom]

129. Exactly. I was furious with both of them, in an initial emotional reaction.

Then I read his emails and more about the case, and realized that I hadn't seen ANY evidence about what she did, including in HIS emails.

I don't know why people here are so willing to lump them both together and so quick to condemn before a trial.

[Hekate]

212. Your input here and below is welcome, Wolverine.

I regret that I have to agree with COLGATE4 that for the most part it is like trying to teach a pig to sing. Now I am going to stop reading this thread before my blood pressure rises any more.

Hekate

[pnwmom]

215. +1000. n/t

[WolverineDG]

248. Thanks, it's not often I feel welcome around here

especially lately.



dg

[LisaL]

51. Your #2 is wrong.

Her attorney did claim that she is innocent.

[LeftishBrit]

57. While if she did this, she' s a nasty piece of work and should be severely punished...

it is a bit worrying to assume that just because someone is charged, that is in itself evidence that they're guilty. The thread just below this one is about a man who has just been released after 8 years in prison for a murder that he did not commit.

[pnwmom]

137. It is especially worrying when so-called progressives do this.

I thought it was only conservatives who worshipped at the feet of police and prosecutors.

[pnwmom]

127. Yeah, right. Just like the police needed REAL evidence to charge the DUKE students.

No prosecutor has ever charged innocent people. How could I have forgotten?

:sarcasm:

[proud2BlibKansan]

28. Like she didn't know what he was doing??

I doubt he just sat there and gave her the impression he was typing a term paper.

[WolverineDG]

41. If you have evidence of exactly what went on in that dorm room

why are you posting on DU instead of talking to law enforcement?

At this point, we do not know what Molly did. All kinds of things could have happened, from her being lied to about "writing a term paper" to her saying, "Hey, dude, you need to post that" & hitting the "send" key. To me, that is different levels of culpability.

But I know on DU that standing up for unpopular defendants equals endorsement of what they did, so flame on.

dg

[proud2BlibKansan]

46. I would be stunned to learn she had no idea what he was doing

He was secretly filming his roommate having gay sex and didn't share that with his friend?

Sorry but the 'I was just there' excuse doesn't hold much water here, IMO.

[pnwmom]

142. Better be careful not ever to sit in a room with someone using a laptop.

You never know what you might be charged with.

Because, of course, laptop users ALWAYS share what they're doing with everyone around them. Especially when they're doing something shady.

:sarcasm:

[bettyellen]

185. not just any room - your room. that's the difference. and college kids keeping this for a secret...

for two days after it had been twittered and I chatted all around. yeah....THAT always happens.

[pnwmom]

194. I can be sitting at the same table or couch with a friend or relative

and NOT peer into the laptop they're using. It would be rude -- even if they had borrowed my computer to check their email, or whatever.

Maybe you feel compelled to supervise everyone else's computer use. I don't.

[LanternWaste]

56. Sigh. Seems everyone wants to

But I know on DU that standing up for unpopular defendants equals endorsement of what they did, so flame on..."

Sigh. Seems everyone wants to be a martyr these days...

[WolverineDG]

64. Get off the cross, someone needs the wood

:eyes:

If you would want that presumption of innocence to work in your favor (or in favor of individuals or groups you like), you have to extend it to those you don't like.

dg

[petronius]

71. The'presumption of innocence' is required in court - there's no requirement or even reason

to apply it here. Message boards would be pretty empty places if we were confined to 100% confirmed facts in our conversations.

Personally, I think Wei knew exactly what was going on, but it's true that the DA has not released any actual evidence to show her involvement. So we wait, and speculate...

[KittyWampus]

88. And why do you presume that? What evidence do you have of her character and past actions?

I'm really curious.

[petronius]

99. I don't know anything about her - I base my presumption on my observations of

bullies and dorm rooms. I think it very unlikely that she would be unaware of what was going on in the same room, and I think it unlikely that the spy (forgot his name) wouldn't have wanted an audience right at hand for his 'prank'. If this was the second occurrence, I also doubt that she didn't know of the first one.

Considering that she provided the space, which makes her partly responsible, the only route to innocence for her would be if she was completely unaware of any of it. I find that the hardest possibility to believe...

(But, of course, some of us are sure to be wrong - just like some DUers were wrong about Duke, some were wrong about Merriam, some were wrong about every other contentious topic that we've discussed.)

[pnwmom]

149. You've got your facts mixed up. She wasn't charged with the

second instance, when he Twittered about streaming the event to his friends.

I don't want to live in a world where simply sitting in a room with someone using a laptop for something bad automatically makes you just as guilty. Do you?

[WolverineDG]

113. All your basing your opinions on are

a bunch of statements made to the media by the DA. The DA is not going to release evidence to the media; he'll try to have it admitted in trial.

So yeah, you wait, you speculate, you jump to conclusions & have Molly hung out to dry while at the same time professing to believe that we are all equal & entitled to each & every right granted us in the Constitution (which, btw, includes the presumption of innocence).

dg

[pnwmom]

150. I mistakenly thought people here might have learned something

from the Duke trial.

Sigh.

[pnwmom]

145. Message boards would be a good way to stir up the population

against any defendant that the government wanted to put away.

Better that we make a habit of keeping "innocent until proven guilty" in mind. Even when the victim is as appealing as Tyler Clementi.

[bettyellen]

74. in the courtroom, sure DG..... but here we can have opinions. and if he taped him before and

twittered about it before and again that night. my opinion is she probably heard about it. maybe she;s less culpable than him,or even tried to talk him out of it.... or maybe it was her idea in the first place, that's something we don;t have enough info to even guess now. but the way colleges and twitter feed works, I'm not sure I'd ever be able to believe it;s a case of the stupids. but maybe they can get enough students to testify they kept these pranks secret from her. weirder things have happened.

[WolverineDG]

114. So in the meantime, folks are okay with stringing her up

even though they know jackshit about what her involvement was. Funny how this is the exact reason our Constitution states that all accused are to be presumed innocent & the government has to prove their guilt.

Yes, you are entitled to your opinion, but it should be based on fact, and at this point, there are no facts in this case other than Tyler's roommate was in Molly's room when the streaming took place. Everything beyond that is speculation until it's proven in court.

dg

[bettyellen]

122. no one is stringing her up, for fucks sake. she's being ostracized by her community

and we have courts to make sure they don;t take matters into thier own hands.
i think it;s a damned shame she didn;t stop it from happening, it seems pretty obvious she could have. i think that bothers most of us.

[pnwmom]

171. One of their friends say that Ravi stopped the cam on the first night

as soon as the images appeared of the two men.

How do you know Ravi didn't stop the cam because Molly asked him to?

The point is that we hardly know anything yet. I would rather NOT live in a society where even progressives are so quick to ostracize anyone accused by the police.

[bettyellen]

188. same friend said Ravi only looked at all because he was "concerned", so he's not credible

his behaviour later kind of disproves without a doubt that he ad any "protective" feelings for his roomate.
i guess you read only half that paragraph in the news report, huh?

[pnwmom]

192. So what does that tell you about what Molly knew? Nothing at all. n/t

[bettyellen]

210. it tells me they know he is busted and telling any lie they can to mitigate his asshole behaviour

i'm not seeing how this puts ms wei in a better light, his friends lying for him? I'm missing how it makes her look better. if she knew about the first occurence two days prior, then she should not have allowed him to harrass that poor kid again. and it'll be really interesting to see her try and prove that she had no idea it happened in a busy dorm like that, news like that gets around.

[pnwmom]

219. "She should not have allowed him" to harass again? Is she the dorm police?

And again, we don't know WHAT she did or didn't do -- other than that the police did not charge her in the second incident.

[bettyellen]

230. I think we do we know she didn;t unplug the computer or call tha RA, so....

[pnwmom]

244. That assumes that she knew what he was doing on the computer.

And I haven't seen any evidence of that. If you have, where's the link?

Also, note how Ravi tweets that "I" saw Tyler -- not "we" saw Tyler.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20018088-504083.html?tag=contentMain

"Roommate asked for the room till midnight. I went into molly's room and turned on my webcam. I saw him making out with a dude. Yay," Ravi said on his Twitter page in a Sept. 19 entry posted at 6:17 p.m., according to the New Jersey Star-Ledger.

[bettyellen]

286. let's see he;s giggling excited reaching out to tell the world, and says nothing to his close friend

2 feet away. Sorry Im not buying it, that's for the jury to try and swallow.
why do you come to a thread where people are dscussing it on one hand, defending the kids and speculating , (thus discussing it) and on the other hand, saying it shouldn't be discussed?
why don;t you start a thread in support of her already?

[pnwmom]

169. It's not even clear to me that "streaming" took place that night --

at least, to anyone beyond that room. Ravi planned to stream the next night, according to his Twitter, but Molly hasn't been implicated in that.

[bettyellen]

183. well, we'll see why she has been implicated, won;t we?

[pnwmom]

193. Yes, and that's what we should be waiting for before we all

rush to judgment.

[pnwmom]

152. She wasn't even charged for the second instance, in which

he was Twittering to his friends about plans to tape them again.

[pnwmom]

128. Your doubting it isn't evidence of anything. Why are people so willing

to condemn her on the basis of no evidence? Let's at least wait till the trial, when we might know something.

[Odin2005]

109. why didn't she alert authorities about what was happening?

She is at least complicit with not doing anything about the shit Ravi was doing.

[pnwmom]

139. One of their friends said Ravi shut down the cam as soon as the images

of the two men appeared. And Molly wasn't charged in the second instance. She probably didn't know about it.

[bettyellen]

184. same friend said Ravi only peeked at first because he was "concerned" about him. What bullshit.

[proud2BlibKansan]

19. +1

[blondeatlast]

218. Indeed. May it torment her for the rest of her life. nt

[pnwmom]

262. I'm sure she will always be sad about it. But what do you know

about her involvement that I don't know?

The only tweets to come out don't actually implicate Molly, if you read them carefully. And they don't imply that Molly helped plan the "prank," helped carry it out, or saw the images -- they don't even show that she was in the room.

But the media HAS been twisting them. For example, the Newark Star Ledger paraphrased the tweet as saying "he and Wei" saw Clementi "making out with a dude" when THEY turned on the webcam." But that's NOT what the tweet said. It said that "I" turned on "my webcam" and "I saw him making out." All we know about Molly from that tweet is that Ravi was in her room.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20018088-504083....

"Roommate asked for the room till midnight. I went into molly's room and turned on my webcam. I saw him making out with a dude. Yay," Ravi said on his Twitter page in a Sept. 19 entry posted at 6:17 p.m., according to the New Jersey Star-Ledger.

Ravi allegedly broadcast that encounter but investigators would not say what video site it was posted to.

A few days later Ravi allegedly tweeted to his 150 followers telling them to "chat" him on iChat, an instant messaging sight with live video feed, the Star-Ledger reported.

"Anyone with iChat, I dare you to video chat me between the hours of 9:30 and 12. Yes it's happening again," Ravi wrote Sept. 21.

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2010/10/molly_weis_attorneys_say_rush.html

This is how the Newark Star Ledger twisted the paraphrase to make it appear that Molly was more involved than the evidence thus far shows:

"Ravi posted a message on his Twitter account telling friends he and Wei had seen his roommate 'making out with a dude' when they turned on the webcam remotely from her dorm room."
Only Ravi turned on the webcam and only Ravi saw the images -- according to his tweet. But that's not what you'd think if you read the Newark Star ledger or all the papers that have quoted this article.

[dkf]

3. I don't understand her role in this. Is it her facebook page that it got posted to?

[pnwmom]

6. No. All we really know is that Clementi's roommate sat in her room

while he was doing whatever he did with a computer and web cam. There hasn't been any evidence released about exactly what she did. But there have been emails published that he wrote describing what he did.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

98. There's a lot of evidence not released yet. That's true.

But if you think his good friend from high school and the person whose room/computer he was using to perpetrate the crime wasn't aware of anything related to the crime INCLUDING his Twitter posts ... well ... I have a bridge to sell you.

[pnwmom]

157. The Twitter posts came AFTER the incident that Molly was charged with.

She wasn't even charged for the second incident related to the Twitter posts.

[Ken Burch]

4. ...Yet, she STILL doesn't acknowledge that what she did was wrong.

n/t.

[pnwmom]

5. Okay. What exactly did she do?

The roommate's emails indicated that HE planned the prank, and HE carried it out. All we know about her involvement is that he went into her room and -- maybe -- asked to use her computer. Either that or he asked to sit in her room while he used his own computer. (It's not clear to me whether he used her computer or his.) Maybe she saw what he was doing -- maybe she didn't. There's no evidence out there, one way or another. People are just assuming that if she was in the room, she had to know what he was doing. But that's a pretty major assumption. Haven't you ever been in a room with someone using a laptop? Even if you lent them the computer, do you hang over their shoulder and watch every move?

Maybe we should wait until we actually see what the evidence is before rushing in to judgement. At the very least, we should be open to the idea that the two defendants may have very different levels of culpability.

[proud2BlibKansan]

32. Oh come on

You honestly believe he just sat there and didn't tell her what he was doing?

[pnwmom]

172. I honestly believe that's a real possibility.

Another real possibility is that he told her he was going to spy on his roommate and -- as soon as the images of the two men appeared -- she told him to turn it off. She wasn't involved in his follow-up Twitters or his planning of a second incident (which didn't actually take place.)

[blueamy66]

198. How big are dorm rooms these days?

1100 sq. feet?

We knew what eachother was doing every minute of the day.

Maybe Rutgers has huge rooms??

[pnwmom]

261. Did you always hang over your roommate's shoulder, watching what he or she

was doing on his or her laptop?

You must have been a fun roommate.

[Codeine]

14. Legally she can't. It would compromise her defense.

Morally, she's still a monster.

[pnwmom]

173. I think it's monstrous to prejudge someone on the basis of almost no evidence. n/t

[WinkyDink]

224. Did I stumble into a court of law here?

[aikoaiko]

10. cheesy media outlet reporting on a what a "close friend" says...

...is really not the same as Wei saying it herself and us hearing it in her words.

But if its true, her thoughts show a level of narssicism that is consistent with her alleged part (whatever that part was) in humiliating Tyler Clementi.

This line is truly upsetting....
"She's really upset about this, she definitely feels bad, and wishes it didn't go the way it did."

Tyler is just an "it" to some people.

[Happyhippychick]

29. Could not agree with you more. +1

[mainer]

100. She didn't say "it"

the source, whoever it was, said "it." So now she's getting condemned for mis-quotes or whatever anyone else says about her.

[aikoaiko]

104. I recognized that the article cited a "close friend" and didnt attribute the quote to Wei.

I attributed it to "some people".

[LisaL]

174. I presume IT applies to the situation.

She wishes the situation did not happen. What does it have to do with Tyler supposedly being "it" to some people?

[aikoaiko]

177. the situation

I don't know how you define the situation, but I see two events. Tyler was humiliated by two students (allegedly Wei and Ravi) and Tyler killed himself.

I wish two college students hadn't humiliated him. I wish Tyler didn't kill himself.

I think Wei and Ravi could say exactly the things they wish didn't happen. Of course we havent much of anything from either. Just a supposed close friend.

[pnwmom]

255. Typical. And why attorneys advise their clients not to speak to anyone,

including their friends. Too many ways statements can get twisted.

[aikoaiko]

273. Typical except that "getting condemned for mis-quotes" is not what happened in this subthread.

;)

[Zoeisright]

11. Anyone with an ounce of brainpower and compassion IS attacking her.

And rightly so. I am so sick of these little shits doing something horrible then whining about being called on it.

[pnwmom]

176. You'd think anyone with an ounce of brainpower would want

to see actual evidence against her first.

So far, there hasn't been any. Or do you have some inside information on the case? Maybe you should take it to the police.

I'm sick of people letting their emotional reaction for the victim of a crime overwhelm their judgment about the guilt or innocence of particular defendants.

[xchrom]

12. i weep for her...

oh wait

:rofl: i lied.

[Dappleganger]

13. Maybe she should just drop out of school

and go get counseling. Better yet, I hope the university expels her for violating someone else's rights and harassment.

I don't give a flying fuck how she feels, at least she is still alive!

[Codeine]

15. There's a bridge with her name on it. . . nt

[whistler162]

37. and the difference between you and Dharun Ravi is.....

well nothing!

[Codeine]

47. You're free to believe that. nt

[no_hypocrisy]

16. One can debate the degree of her complicity. But she's still responsible.

You can actively aid and abet a crime.

Or you can fascilitate another performing a crime. The classic example would be the East Orange/Seton Hall shooting three weeks ago. A neighbor was not allowed in a house where a party was held. He went to a friend and asked for a gun. The friend gave him the gun which was used to also shoot a co-ed who was protecting a friend he just shot. She later died.

The provider of the gun is liable criminally for giving the gun used in a subsequent crime.

Molly Wei provided the facilities to allow Clementi's roommate to humiliate him to death, literally.

[a la izquierda]

17. Repost this upthread

in response to the folks questioning her culpability.
I wonder: would these people question her culpability if it was there son? Nah, probably not.

[KittyWampus]

92. if you let a friend use your computer, they downloaded child porn without you knowing >>>

YOU get busted for it.

Should we question your culpability?

[a la izquierda]

249. He was in her room, using her computer.

And she didn't know? Bull. Crap. Maybe I'm overly sensitive on this issue, but I'll call it like I see it here.
For what it's worth, I know what it's like to have a roommate torment me mercilessly. My freshman year, my roommate let her friends "borrow" my stuff (I only found the stuff when other girls' things went missing after my roomie and her buddies had spent time in these girls' rooms), her parents went through my belongings, she would have sex with her boyfriend while I was "sleeping" in the next BED. And I got harassed by her little posse of shitheads from her hometown. My freshman year was miserable because of that dumb bitch, a 16 year old who'd skipped a grade, and was a virginal, angelic Indian girl in the eyes of her parents.
Oh yeah, until I finally got the cops involved. Then she rolled on her friends, saying she never knew they stole my stuff.
So, excuse me for being skeptical.

ETA: I am in NO WAY comparing my experience to Tyler's.
This happened to me, incidentally, at Rutgers.

[pnwmom]

256. His own tweet says that "I saw him making out" NOT "We saw him making out."

He mentions going to Molly's room, but doesn't say either that he used her computer or that she knew what he was doing there -- or even that she was actually in the room at the time.

This is the only piece of actual evidence that the police released, and I don't see Molly implicated anywhere -- other than that he was in her room when he turned on his webcam. If you know something more, please share.

"Roommate asked for the room till midnight. I went into molly's room and turned on my webcam. I saw him making out with a dude. Yay," Ravi said on his Twitter page in a Sept. 19 entry posted at 6:17 p.m., according to the New Jersey Star-Ledger.

Ravi allegedly broadcast that encounter but investigators would not say what video site it was posted to.

A few days later Ravi allegedly tweeted to his 150 followers telling them to "chat" him on iChat, an instant messaging sight with live video feed, the Star-Ledger reported.

"Anyone with iChat, I dare you to video chat me between the hours of 9:30 and 12. Yes it's happening again," Ravi wrote Sept. 21.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20018088-504083.html?tag=contentMain

[a la izquierda]

274. Yeah, yeah, I read the article.

I'm originally from NJ, I attended Rutgers (actually, I lived on the campus those kids lived on) and both my mother and uncle are gay, so let's just say I have a personal interest in this case.
Your mind is made up and I'm sorry, but so is mine. If she wasn't in the room, then why the hell hasn't her attorney said that and spared his client this horror, hmm? How would he have gotten in if she wasn't there? Broken in? They were high school friends. I'm not an idiot.
It was not that long ago that I lived in a dorm and even more recently, I was a dorm RA. I'll call a spade a spade because I've both witnessed and been a victim of the viciousness that roommates can sling at each other. And that her attorney hasn't defended her by simply saying "she wasn't there and is being slandered." Well, that speaks volumes. If she's innocent, good. Hopefully this will be a learning experience, because she's got truly horrific choice in friends.

[pnwmom]

290. Her attorney has said she is innocent. He doesn't have to explain

the reason on our timetable. In fact, it would be stupid to -- because it would be telling the prosecutor in advance what her defense would be.

You should know by what we learned in the Duke lacrosse case that simply saying "I wasn't there" doesn't get you off the hook. One of the defendents who stayed on the hook for almost a year had photographic and other evidence -- a time-stamped bank photo of him using an ATM -- that he wasn't there. The prosecutors insisted on pressing charges against him anyway.

I understand how you feel. I had an emotional reaction to this case at first, too. My father is gay -- and I was the butt of bullies as a child. But then I realized that I hadn't seen any actual evidence so far that implicates Molly Wei -- Ravi's tweets implicate only him.

But my mind isn't made up. I'm waiting for EVIDENCE and a TRIAL. What I'm surprised at is that anyone's mind is made up at this point in time, when we have so few details about what actually happened.

[a la izquierda]

304. The whole case irritates and saddens me.

I hope for her sake that if she was simply caught up, she'll be cleared. Ravi can rot. My reaction is knee-jerk. My mom and uncle are gay. I got tormented mercilessly and had guys not date me (?) because my mom was perceived to have some kind of disease. People are awful, they truly are.
I appreciate your thoughtful responses to my agitated posts. GLBT issues get me extremely hot under the collar. We just had a case here in Oklahoma: a 19 year old took his life after realizing that the adult world isn't much better than the world of torment he experienced as a kid. Makes me so sad.
http://normantranscript.com/headlines/x1477594493/-I-m-sure-he-took-it-personally

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proud2BlibKansan]

33. OMG

Some days I really wonder what has happened to this website. Today will be another of those days.

[dsc]

34. Even if he was say mentally ill

and there is no evidence at all that he was, you take your victim as you find him. In short, she is just as culpable. On a related note, I don't think you understand the abject humiliation he was subject to thanks to both of them. Not only was his intimate life publicized for literally the world to see, but he was outed to everyone he ever knew or ever would know when he was a very private young man. I don't know if I would have survived that had it happened to me.

[Cid_B]

35. Maybe you would have ... maybe not...

... but in the end it would have been your decision. Your strength or your weakness would be the deciding factor based on external things that had happened to you.

[no_hypocrisy]

40. With due respect, you are ignoring the "but for" factor.

But for the public broadcast of his most intimate sharing with another man*, there is no evidence that Tyler Clementi was suicidal or despondent or troubled.

* It would have been humiliating on a lesser level had it been a broadcast of a heterosexual liasson. Mulitiply the angst of a young person having to "justify" his his choice which is subject to ridicule, derision, and hostility.

[Cid_B]

55. Ok... I'll play with that...

... "but for" the fact that one of my wife's student's girlfriend broke up with him there is no evidence that this kid would have taken a leap into an empty swimming pool ( there to lie for several hours in the snow with a broken spine and internal bleeding until he died)

Should we charge the girl? Maybe she knew he was a sad fellow? What if she didn't? Maybe she did it in a mean way? Maybe she told all her friends he was bad in bed? Even in the worst case scenario you still cannot charge the girl.

I stand by my statement that in the end the decision to end his life belonged to Clementi and no one else.

[bettyellen]

63. ending a relationship is the same as secretly taping others having sex + broadcasting it on the net?

no, it isn't. not by a long shot. Ending a relationship means you aren;t going to do anything to a person. it;s a free country no one can force you, of course to stay in a relationship.
doing something horrible to someone else, invade their privacy? that's illegal, and very rightfully so, it;s needlessly cruel. got that? needlessly and very deliberately cruel.

[Cid_B]

68. Maybe to you it isn't...

It was obviously enough for this kid. That is my point.

The external factors are all relative and have to be taken out. The responsibility lies with the person who killed themselves. The kid who taped should be charged with exactly what he would have been charged with if the taped kid hadn't jumped.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

83. I don't think you are grasping the difference between ending a relationship - a legal act .. .

....and wire-tapping another person - an illegal act.

[Cid_B]

85. Fine...

so charge them for wire-tapping. Just as if the kid hadn't taken a leap off a bridge.

The fact that the "straw that broke the camel's back" was illegal doesn't matter.

A guy had a '67 Mustang that his father had given him right before he died. It was his pride and joy and his sole link to his father. A punk comes by, steals it and wraps it around a telephone pole. The car's rightful owner is so distraught that he kills himself. Should we charge the punk with manslaughter?

[bettyellen]

123. The charge is invasion of privacy, genius. if he had iived there probably would be no

charges and no punishment, just like the first time theses aswwipes invaded his privacy.

[MellowDem]

61. But then there is the issue of proximate cause...

"But for" Clementi not being comfortable with his own sexuality, he would not have jumped. Unfortunately, lots of people's sexual liasions have been posted for public viewing, and as humiliating as it is, the question that probably will be is examined is whether a reasonable person would react in such a way. Hopefully they'll even look at is as whether a reasonable "closeted" person in our society would react in such a way, and there have been a slew of recent examples unfortunately, but that would be a very liberal way of looking at it. If it is reasonably foreseeable that by posting the video that Clementi would committ suicide, that would be big. As you point out, it is possible there was no way of knowing that Clementi was suicidal or despondant or troubled per se. Still, I don't think Wei is as culpable as the other guy whose it was to actually recorded it, and in terms of proximate cause, will probably get a fairly light sentance in terms of liability.

[mainer]

117. Violation of privacy is the crime. Not shoving him off the bridge.

I too am astonished by the amount of hatred being expressed here. If someone outed a gay celebrity and he committed suicide, would we attack the exposer as vociferously? If you revealed that a neighbor was having an affair, and he committed suicide, are you guilty of anything besides thoughtless indiscretion?

I'm more inclined to blame society as a whole for making gay people feel they have to hide their sexuality. And feel so ashamed of being outed that they'd rather be dead.

[LisaL]

165. Why exactly do you assume Tyler killed himself simply

because he was outed and not because of the way he was outed? While it's possible his family did not know, I do not think Tyler was in the closet to the point no one knew.

[pnwmom]

271. dsc, I totally understand his humiliation, and that's why I wanted to throw

the book at both of them -- at first. My emotions got the better of my reason. I also was influenced by some newspaper articles that twisted the known facts.

But then I realized that they were two different people -- two individuals -- and that I hadn't actually seen any evidence of her doing anything worse than allowing Ravi to use a computer in her dorm room. And that the newspapers have been guilty of pretty sloppy reporting.

Read Ravi's tweets. He said that HE turned on the webcam (from Molly's room) and that HE viewed the roommate "making out." He didn't say anything about Molly participating. It's not even clear it was her computer that he used. It's also not clear -- no matter whose computer he used -- that she hung over his shoulder and watched what he was doing. Much less encouraged him.

If you've seen any other evidence, I'd be happy to reconsider. But at this point all I've seen are a couple of tweets that don't implicate Wei. And for the second incident a few days later, she wasn't charged at all. On what basis do you think she's equally culpable? Even the prosecutor isn't saying that.


http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20018088-504083 ....

"Roommate asked for the room till midnight. I went into molly's room and turned on my webcam. I saw him making out with a dude. Yay," Ravi said on his Twitter page in a Sept. 19 entry posted at 6:17 p.m., according to the New Jersey Star-Ledger.

Ravi allegedly broadcast that encounter but investigators would not say what video site it was posted to.

A few days later Ravi allegedly tweeted to his 150 followers telling them to "chat" him on iChat, an instant messaging sight with live video feed, the Star-Ledger reported.

"Anyone with iChat, I dare you to video chat me between the hours of 9:30 and 12. Yes it's happening again," Ravi wrote Sept. 21.

_______________________________________________________________________________
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2010/10/molly_weis_att ...

This is how the Newark Star Ledger twisted the paraphrase to make it appear that Molly was more involved than the evidence thus far shows:

"Ravi posted a message on his Twitter account telling friends he and Wei had seen his roommate 'making out with a dude' when they turned on the webcam remotely from her dorm room."

Ravi alone turned on the webcam and Ravi alone saw the images -- according to the tweet he wrote at the time. But that's not what you'd think if you read the Newark Star ledger or all the papers that have quoted this article.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LanternWaste]

58. Coercion reduces choice.

Coercion, whether physical, mental or emotional reduces choices available.

[Gormy Cuss]

60. Right! Because suicide's always based on a rational choice

and there's no shame in being gay in America, let alone having someone streaming your sexual activity live on the internet.

I have no idea how complicit Wei was in Ravi's twisted "prank" but there may have been grounds to charge her even if Clementi hadn't become despondent enough to jump off of a bridge. IOW, she may indeed deserve the blame.

[NashVegas]

62. Know What? You're Absolutely Correct

But that doesn't mean that Molly isn't an asswipe who CHOSE to associate with a fuckhead who CHOSE to betray and humiliate his dorm-mate by putting the latter's sexual escapades in front of the public.

What Molly is getting is the treatment she approved of for another person.

[Cid_B]

67. My spidey senses say...

... that she wouldn't get the same cadre of supporters that the other kid is getting....

Gosh, I wonder why....?

[NashVegas]

93. Not Sure What You Mean

... ?

[Cid_B]

95. If the girl here killed herself due to the "unbearable" public shame and pressure...

I doubt many here would weep and certainly not as much...

"What Molly is getting is the treatment she approved of for another person." - NV

[NashVegas]

97. Why Would You Think That?

[Cid_B]

103. Like I said.... Spidey senses....

nt

[treestar]

72. He was probably depressed

The other man did not kill himself, so it's not just the bad thing happening, that may have been a trigger here but did not have to be. I'm just sad he didn't get any help in time.

But the two who did the filming would be equally blameworthy even if he had not killed himself.

[Odin2005]

110. What a load of bullcrap!

:grr:

[mainer]

115. DId they know he was gay when they filmed him?

And if they didn't know he was gay, would it make a difference in the level of condemnation toward these two? Just wondering if people would be as angry at these students if they were just taping a guy's escapades and suddenly discovered "oh my god, my roommate's gay?"

[kenny blankenship]

132. There's no possible doubt that Ravi knew - he webcammed Tyler on the 19th and on the 21st

the facebook invite to view live streaming webcam video of Tyler Clementi having sex with another guy read, "He's at it again"

I think it's a very fair assumption that between the 19th and 21st Dharun Ravi told his friend Molly Wei about what he had recorded his roommate doing, and that he needed her help to "catch him at it again".

I expect that prosecutors would be willing to drop or mitigate charges against Wei if she would testify about what Dharun Ravi did. I expect that her parents and her legal counsel would have advised her firmly to "just tell the police and prosecutors everything" she saw and heard, in exchange for dropped charges. But she couldn't take that deal if what she told the investigators would implicate her to the same degree as Ravi. And what would implicate her to the same degree as her asshole friend? Foreknowledge of what Ravi was trying to do to his gay roommate. If Ravi testified that she knew he was going to use her computer to live stream his roommate getting naked, having sex with a man, like he had recorded 2 days before, then she gets in the same degree of trouble as Ravi, since it was a conspiracy between them to violate Clementi's privacy. So far, charges against Molly Wei haven't been dropped. So it would seem, although it's still early, that her attorney thinks she's in jeopardy of being found guilty right along with Dharun Ravi if she just starts blabbing. They're going to get Dharun Ravi without a doubt. She can't possibly save him by remaining silent. It's futile to be silent and it's in her interest to talk. Unless of course she's guilty, too.

[alcibiades_mystery]

200. Ms. Wei is charged for the act on the 19th, not the 21st

So, your whole theory relative to Ms Wei falls apart. It's perfectly plausible that she didn't know what would come on the streaming video when Mr. Ravi connected at. Indeed, given the complete lack of charges against Ms. Wei for the events of 9/21, it's not clear that she was involved in the second incident at all. The rest of your post is speculation about what was said and discussed between investigators and Ms. Wei, and hypotheticals about advice from counsel, all of which stems directly from your imagination.

[kenny blankenship]

204. Great - even *more* reason for her to agree to testify for the state

It will be simple to put this all on Dharun Ravi since as you say he's so much more culpable. So why doesn't she cooperate? Her friend is guilty as fuck. She doesn't have to be punished too. The state has some evidence against her, but what they want from her is her testimony against her asshole friend. When they get that, little Ravi will wet his pants and plead and this will all be over, which is all the state cares about.

If she won't testify against Ravi it's because she can't do it without implicating herself or because she can't risk him returning the favor and telling the truth about the degree of her involvement.

[alcibiades_mystery]

209. Well

since as you say he's so much more culpable

I don't say that. We don't know the levels of culpability.

If she won't testify against Ravi it's because she can't do it without implicating herself or because she can't risk him returning the favor and telling the truth about the degree of her involvement.

Who knows?

We don't know exactly how this happened or what happened.

[COLGATE4]

80. You really don't understand the concept of criminal facilitation. nt

[pnwmom]

220. Legally, computers are not the equivalent of guns.

Otherwise, libraries would be responsible for everything their users do on the computers.

[Cid_B]

268. That would only apply if they had held him at gunpoint at the bridge...

... otherwise nada...

[Cid_B]

18. I feel bad for her...

No one knows what she did and in the end the responsibility lies with the kid who killed himself...

[bettyellen]

48. i dony feel bad for her. if it wasn;t her computer and she didn't leave evidence she particaipated

she'll be fine, Maybe she;ll be a bit smarter about who she befriends down the road.

[proud2BlibKansan]

21. Bullies always claim to be victims

I don't feel the least bit sorry for her.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cid_B]

36. A homophobe!? ZOMG!@

Where?! Let's round up a posse...

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WolverineDG]

42. What? You mean the two posters who understand the presumption of innocence?

Is that all it takes to be a homophobe these days?

:eyes:

dg

[Cleobulus]

45. one of them says the suicide victim is "weak"...

The other defends the Catholic Church no matter how horrendious it acts.

[WolverineDG]

65. The blame the suicide victim caught my attention

:wtf:

didn't see the Catholic Church one, though.

dg

[Cleobulus]

76. That's the poster's history not in this thread....

Suggest performing a search of their username for posts about their interesting positions.

[Lyric]

53. Presumption of innocence is a legal term, not a social imperative.

We are not a court of law. We don't have any authority over her Constitutional rights. Nobody here is required to "presume" that she's innocent--mostly because she's not fucking innocent. To believe that she's innocent would require that we believe that she let Dharun Ravi into her dorm room--TWICE--and let him have access to her computer--TWICE--without having any idea in the world what he was doing. Frankly, that's just ridiculous. She was Ravi's friend; she had access to his Twitter feed. In my view, she proved that she was NOT innocent when she let that asshole into her room a second time, knowing full well what he'd already done, so that he could try and do it AGAIN.

And I'll bet the farm that when she's finally convicted of whatever charge the prosecutors and her attorneys settle on, the judge is going to tell her exactly the same thing as the guilty verdict is handed down.

[bettyellen]

69. if she knew he had streamed this illegal taping on a prior occasion then she fucked up by

letting him in to do it again. and with her following him on twitter and in that enviornment... it;s a huge stretch to guess she was cluelss.
shame she could have stopped it, and been a secret hero, instead of being what it looks like it was, an accomplice.

[LisaL]

75. How do you know she follows him on twitter?

Do you know that in fact she uses twitter at all? I've seen tweets attributed to Ravi, but nothing attributed to Molly to suggest that she knew anything was going on.

[Lyric]

102. There are several possible scenarios here.

Scenario 1:

Dharun Ravi: "Hi Molly! Can I come into your room and use your computer for three hours?"
Molly Wei: "Sure, Dharun! And I'm not going to ask you what you're doing or why you need my computer for three hours, nor am I going to see your Twitter feed because teenage college kids like me are not known for using Twitter!"
Molly Wei proceeds to close her eyes, take a nap, listen to her iPod, and generally ignore the person who's in her room
***three hours later***
Dharun Ravi: "Okay Molly! All done. Thanks!"
Molly Wei: "You're welcome! And please, do feel free to come back tomorrow and ask to use my computer AGAIN, at which point I will refrain from asking you why (AGAIN), and will (AGAIN) close my eyes and ears to whatever you're doing. This is because I'm a sweet young lady with a bright future!"

Scenario 2:

Dharun Ravi: "Hi Molly! Can I come into your room and use your computer for three hours?"
Molly Wei: "Sure, Dharun! And I'm going to leave you here in my room for three hours alone, without asking you why you need to be in here or what you're doing, because I'm a sweet girl with a bright future! Oh, and I'm also a teenage college student who doesn't use or read Twitter! Isn't that amazing?"
Molly Wei leaves
***three hours later***
Molly Wei returns
Dharun Ravi: "Thanks Molly! All done!"
Molly Wei: "Anytime Dharun! Feel free to come back tomorrow and ask again, at which point I will leave AGAIN without asking you why you need to be in here (AGAIN). Toodles!"

Scenario 3:

Molly Wei knew what was going on, failed to recognize that it was wrong, did nothing to stop it the first time, and in fact, let Ravi BACK into her room knowing that he was going to try and do it AGAIN.

Which one seems more likely to you?

:eyes:

But if you can think of an alternative scenario in which Molly Wei has a rational, innocent reason for letting Dharun Ravi into her dorm room (twice), logging him onto her computer (twice), and never, ever questioning what he did for three hours the first time he was there, or why he wants to do whatever-it-was that he did AGAIN...well, I'd sure love to hear it.

[LisaL]

191. I presume that at her age you always reported on your

friends when you knew they did/attempted to do something wrong, and did so promptly?

[bettyellen]

126. she doen;t have to, there was a day for the first incident;s gossip to be all over school.

no way she missed all that, college dorms don;t work that way.

[LisaL]

70. Just because it's not required does not mean it can not be

presumed. By the way some people consider it's rude to look over what someone else is doing on the computer. Even if she has access to his twitter page, does not mean she is reading it every day.
She is an excellent student so have it occurred to you she might have actually concentrated on studying and not what someone else was doing on a computer?

[unapatriciated]

203. I don't know what the deleted response to Cid B was

But Cid B's post was wrong on so many levels and blames the victim. It is a little hypocritical to defend on the premise of innocent until proven guilty since he/she does not extend it to the victim.
She is being charged with violation of privacy and somehow he has twisted that violation making the victim responsible. I understand and do not have a problem with waiting until all the facts are in. I do however have a big problem with this statement.

No one knows what she did and in the end the responsibility lies with the kid who killed himself...

[malaise]

22. Molly will get her day in court which is more than

is available to Tyler.

Fuck you Molly! :puke:

[WinkyDink]

23. What--she doesn't see the value in MASSIVE PUBLICITY?? Irony Alert!!

[ellie]

44. Big fat bummer!

[Lil Missy]

49. SHE feels attacked??? That's rich.

[ecstatic]

54. it's important not to stoop to the same bullying tactics that landed Tyler

into the grave. Let's keep in mind she is still a very young, foolish person--and young people make mistakes. The true culprit is the roommate, we don't know how much she did besides loan her computer.

[lumberjack_jeff]

59. Should she be held responsible? Here's an interesting logical exercise.

Molly goes to Dharun's dorm room. While she's there, Molly's roommate is recorded from Dharun's computer and the video posted to the internet. Dharun is charged with invasion of privacy along with Molly.

In that scenario, how much sympathy should Dharun feel entitled to?

It was her room, it was her computer and she was there.

[alcibiades_mystery]

66. Let's try another scenario

Ms. Wei is in her room studying chemistry, fucking around with those little blocks while tapping shit out on a calculator. A knock on the door. It's Mr. Ravi, who she knows from high school. OK fuck it, maybe it's time for a study break. Hey, man. What's up? Hey, says Ravi. I'm kicked out of my room - hook up time. Well, I got shit to do tonight, says Wei. Can I use your laptop for a minute? Yeah, fine. I fucking hooked up a camera in the room to catch this hook-up action! For real? exclaims Wei. Ravi logs in and gets the feed up. Oh, shit! He's kissing a boy! Wei runs over: He sure is! Oh, man, Molly, check this out! Wei watches for a minute, says "You're roommates gettin' busy!," then she gets bored, goes back to studying. Ravi watches for a few more minutes, turns on the teevee. Come on, dude. I'm studying, says Wei.

Granted, this is the most favorable scenario for Wei, and it's a hypothetical that calls her culpability into the most question. But here's the thing: nothing I've seen in any article suggests that it happened otherwise. So, as a thought experiment, let's imagine it happened this way. What is the degree of culpability if this is how it cashed out?

[lumberjack_jeff]

81. The problem is that your scenario isn't a hypothetical, it's the presumption.

"nothing I've seen in any article suggests that it happened otherwise"

Complete with a stereotype-compliant dialog.

How hard do we have to work to excuse her role in the video posted from her computer in her room? Pretty hard, apparently.

[LisaL]

84. Exactly why do you assume you know anything that is not a

presumption about her role in this?

[lumberjack_jeff]

108. I know that the victim of a suicide

was surreptitiously filmed by a webcam controlled by her computer in her dorm room and subsequently posted to the internet.

Maybe there's a benign explanation. Maybe there's not.

[alcibiades_mystery]

120. "Maybe there's a benign explanation. Maybe there's not."

Yes. Exactly.

[alcibiades_mystery]

89. No, because I don't presume it happened like this

I'm not sure what you mean by "stereotype-compliant" dialog. Please point it out so I can learn.

I understand that you're revved up here, but we can discuss this reasonably without hurling insults. I'm not trying to excuse Ms. Wei of anything. I do, however, think that this thing could have happened numerous ways, and it's not clear to me HOW exactly it happened.

Can we discuss this, or do you just want to accuse me of homophobia and be done with it?

[lumberjack_jeff]

111. My response to the OP wasn't presumptuous at all.

I simply reversed the genders of the people involved in documented events.

No one here is homophobic, and it wasn't my intent to insult.

The stereotype on which Molly's entire defense rests is that the nice young lady couldn't have had anything to do with such a nasty business. She was probably too wrapped up in her homework to notice the perpetrator using her computer to surreptitiously record sex acts occurring elsewhere in the dorm.

Fortunately for her, it's a pervasive stereotype.

[alcibiades_mystery]

119. Oh, I don't buy that

I think it's perfectly plausible to think that a college freshman is studying in her dorm room on a Sunday night between 9 and midnight. Indeed, that's a prime time for catching up after pissing away Friday and Saturday :-). It's a severe stretch to call that a "stereotype." I just don't get the charge.

I think it's plausible that Ms. Wei was being a bully, and that it's equally plausible, at least given what I've read, that this thing kinda dropped in her lap as a result of Mr. Ravi's actions and her previous association with him. Indeed, it's plausible that it happened just the way I described, is it not?

I never said you were "presumptuous," so I think you meant to direct that remark to another poster.

[KittyWampus]

94. It's not hard at all, actually. And it's amazing how easily DU'ers condemn someone

when they don't know all the facts in a case that involves BULLYING.

If a friend or acquaintance used your computer briefly and ended up accessing child porn and you get busted cause it's your computer and IP address- you going to take the blame?

[lumberjack_jeff]

106. If my defense from child porn charges was that a friend did it on my computer while I was home

I'd be prepared to face some degree of skepticism.

Of course I don't know what happened. Just like every other DU'er, I wasn't there.

That's kind of the whole point of my suggestion to not jump to her defense based on nothing except a good-girl bad-boy stereotype.

[alcibiades_mystery]

121. The notion that people are "jumping to her defense"

based on a "good-girl bad-boy stereotype" strikes me as a stretch, to say the least. The facts that we do know are there, and they paint a very unclear picture. I don't see how some stereotype comes up at all. It just strikes me as a weird counterargument. I mean, we have the cultural figure of the "mean girl" as a well known trope. Who would suggest that she couldn't be involved because she is a woman? I haven't seen anything like that. The curious fact here is that she wasn't charged with the second incident, and seems uninvolved in it completely. This would at least throw into doubt what happened during the first incident with respect to Ms. Wei.

It would be helpful to have the text of the actual indictment here. I've been unable to find it. It would lead to a more productive discussion, in any case, than charges of "stereotyping" that seem to lack any foundation.

[bettyellen]

125. i think the first incident has charges because the second attempt at streaming failed

that's my understandng of it. and if she knew about the first incident and let him do it again, Im afraid it looks bad for her.

[alcibiades_mystery]

144. It's not at all clear to me that that's what happened

It begs the question of why HE was charged for the second incident.

I'd like to see the indictment. There seems to be a lot of "that's my understanding," which is fair enough, but I think the text of the indictment could clear up some of these questions. I haven't seen anything to say that she "let him do it again." If you have something to that effect, by all means share.

:-)

[bettyellen]

155. i know you;re not trying to be a jerk here. but i made it very clear we are speculating

so back off. i was just trying to clear up the difference between the frst and second incidents,it has been reported that the second stream didn;t work, so the charges if any, would not be the same.

[LisaL]

161. It didn't work because Tyler found the webcam was pointing

toward his bed and turned the computer off (according to what someone presumed to be Tyler posted on a gay oriented website).

[bettyellen]

163. exactly, so there was not another invasion pf privacy that day, just a plan to

[alcibiades_mystery]

170. But Mr. Ravi was charged

Was he charged with an attempted invasion of privacy. I'd like to see the indictment.

It's also not clear that any of this "second incident" stuff happened in Ms. Wei's room, or even that she was involved at all in the second attempt. If she was involved, and they charged Ravi with attempt, wouldn't they charge her as well? Do we have documentation on that? I haven't seen any.

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to "back off" on. I didn't, to my knowledge, and certainly not to my intent, say anything that would cause offense.

Yes, we are speculating. As is everybody who seems to write on this. I'd love to see those indictments.

[bettyellen]

178. back off that nasty attitude because BOTH of us were clearly just speculating

I'll not bother discussing any of the ther questions you have as it seems you are here to scold people here instead of actually talking about it.
see ya.

[alcibiades_mystery]

189. I'm completely flummoxed by your assertion

I don't know what I said that you're perceiving as "nasty," but I suggest that you inspect your own tone here. I am discussing this in a civil and responsible way, so I don't really know what you're talking about.

[woo me with science]

238. What nasty attitude?

I don't see what you're referring to. Looks like a civil discussion to me.

[Heidi]

141. In that hypothetical, she had plenty of opportunity to cowboy up and stop a wrong.

It would have been as easy as, "Don't drag me into this, man," "This isn't right and don't use my laptop to do this," and, "Why didn't you just tell him he couldn't have the room?"

[LisaL]

143. Well if teenages felt comfortable stopping other teenagers

from doing something wrong (for example, underage drinking, using illegal substances,etc), don't you think world would have been a much better place?

[Heidi]

153. I do think that.

I also think the world would benefit from more adults modeling just behavior, which includes civil disobedience related to unjust drug laws. :hi:

[alcibiades_mystery]

147. Oh, for sure

And yet the failure to do that appears much more a passive wrong than the active wrong imputed. Maybe she didn't speak up, or maybe she thought the whole thing was stupid and ignored Mr. Ravi. Or maybe she egged him on, and was unspeakably cruel in her insistence. I don't know. Neither do the people calling for her to spend her 20's in state prison.

[Heidi]

160. I'm not a big fan of prison as a means of changing people's hearts/minds.

I don't know what happened in this particular situation or what Wei's culpability was. But if she was in the room when herr roomie used her laptop to violate someone else's privacy (and in such an especially mean-spirited way), even a little attentiveness and backbone could have saved a life.

[alcibiades_mystery]

168. I don't know about all that

First, Mr. Ravi wasn't her roommate, but somebody she knew from high school. It's likely he came to see her because he knew her, and he didn't know a lot of other people on campus, it being only the third week. I can't even tell, from the available articles, why he went to Wei's room specifically. I know I hung out with some high school friends when I first got to college because I was in a new environment and didn't know a lot of people. I also know that for some of them, I never really hung out with them again after first semester. Was she an active co-plotter, or just the person Ravi randomly visited? I don't know, and neither do other posters, AFAIK.

Second, and I think this is the part that's hardest to grok for people, or to think through independently of the suicide, it's entirely possible that the whole thing was viewed, and could be viewed, as not particularly a big deal. I know. I know. That's anathema, and it was a crime, and all that. I'd just suggest that many, many college students might react in a non-interventionist way in the same situation, and might even view the "secret web cam" streaming as mostly a harmless prank. I know. I know. We can't say that. It was cruel and hateful bullying. Yes, I get it.

But I could easily envision a scenario wherein Ravi asks to use Wei's laptop to see the stream he set up. He shows it to her, and she shrugs her shoulders. Whatevs. And I don't really see any information that would dispute such a scenario. And I think it drastically modifies culpability on her part.

I doubt she'll get any prison time. Probably plead to some lesser charge for probation.

[bettyellen]

180. "could be viewed, as not particularly a big deal" - this is a repulsive thought.

[alcibiades_mystery]

186. As should be clear

I'm describing the possible perception of such activities by a particular population, not my own perception. It's perfectly plausible to think that this sort of thing is not viewed as either aggressive or particularly objectionable by many young people. I get that you're trying to attribute these views to me, and thereby tar me as some kind of bad person, but that's neither here nor there. I was responding to a poster asking why Ms. Wei didn't intervene. It's plausible that she would consider what Mr. Ravi was doing to be bad taste, at worst, and not requiring attention or intervention.

[bettyellen]

190. you can play coy and find justifications for this , fine. I'll tell you clearly it disgusts me, ok?

if you don;t agree with these childish rationalizations, then you;d maybe want to distance yourself from them, but your post doesnt t all.
it dog whistles pretty fucking clearly, thanks!

[alcibiades_mystery]

201. I find your personal attacks objectionable

Your clear implication is that I agree with what happened to Mr. Clementi, and that's just false. What's disgusting is the ease with which you attack me personally rather than discussing the issue.

If you don't want to have a civil conversation on this, then don't. Nobody's forcing you to come here and attack me, and I have certainly not--up until this post, I suppose--been anything less than civil and generous with you. There is no coyness here. I'm addressing what we actually know about Ms. Wei's involvement, and the answer is, very obviously, not much. If there was another answer, you would have already disputed my post with it. Since you seem incapable of doing that, you've decided to just lob ad hominems my way.

[bettyellen]

211. if you don;t want to make excuses for the kids, then don;t, but you are and i called you on it

and that is discussing the issue.

[alcibiades_mystery]

226. I have yet to make one "excuse" for anyone in this entire thread

To "make an excuse," we'd have to know what happened. If, at that point, I sought to mitigate Ms. Wei's role, then I would be "making an excuse" for her. As it stands, we don't seem to know exactly what happened.

That you don't seem to understand the definition of "making an excuse" is not particularly my problem.

It's actually clear what's happening here: you don't take disagreement well. It's the only thing that explains your weird "back off" comment above, and your continuing personal nonsense. The only way you CAN discuss the case is through inventing bizarre things to "call" me on, since you are unable to discuss the actual case.

[bettyellen]

229. "not particularly a big deal. I know. I know. That's anathema, and it was a crime, and all that."

Sun Oct-10-10 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #160
168. I don't know about all that

First, Mr. Ravi wasn't her roommate, but somebody she knew from high school. It's likely he came to see her because he knew her, and he didn't know a lot of other people on campus, it being only the third week. I can't even tell, from the available articles, why he went to Wei's room specifically. I know I hung out with some high school friends when I first got to college because I was in a new environment and didn't know a lot of people. I also know that for some of them, I never really hung out with them again after first semester. Was she an active co-plotter, or just the person Ravi randomly visited? I don't know, and neither do other posters, AFAIK.

Second, and I think this is the part that's hardest to grok for people, or to think through independently of the suicide, it's entirely possible that the whole thing was viewed, and could be viewed, as not particularly a big deal. I know. I know. That's anathema, and it was a crime, and all that. I'd just suggest that many, many college students might react in a non-interventionist way in the same situation, and might even view the "secret web cam" streaming as mostly a harmless prank. I know. I know. We can't say that. It was cruel and hateful bullying. Yes, I get it.

But I could easily envision a scenario wherein Ravi asks to use Wei's laptop to see the stream he set up. He shows it to her, and she shrugs her shoulders. Whatevs. And I don't really see any information that would dispute such a scenario. And I think it drastically modifies culpability on her part.

I doubt she'll get any prison time. Probably plead to some lesser charge for probation.

[bettyellen]

231. i especially like your flippant use of "all that:" well done sir.

coy is the nicest thing i can call that post.

[alcibiades_mystery]

236. Oy vey

Is that the evidence you're hanging your hat on? Hopefully, the prosecutor in this case understands compelling proof better than you do.

:rofl:

[alcibiades_mystery]

233. And?

I will continue to suspect that many college students wouldn't consider it a big deal. That's neither here nor there when it comes to "excusing" her actions. The fact that you'd post this as "proof" that I was "making excuses" really demonstrates that you either A) don't know how to read very well, or B) don't understand what an excuse is.

The way you edited that in the subject line - as if I believed it wasn't a big deal - also demonstrates a rather shocking propensity for dishonesty on your part.

[bettyellen]

239. I posted your post completely, so it;s 100% honest and it does read like you might agree with

the assessment it's not a big deal, maybe just a prank. i can read and hell yeah, that that's the very coy part. too bad the way a small number of college kids (and you? who knows) think has no bearing at all legally.
sorry officer i saw it in American Pie and thought it Wes okay. Ha... yeah, that's just brilliant, and you can split hairs if you want but us grownups call it making excuses.

[alcibiades_mystery]

242. I'm not sure what you mean by

"saw it in American Pie," since I said nothing of the kind. You may be confusing me with some other poster or something, but I haven't read all the threads on this, and I honestly don't know where the American Pie comment is coming from.

It's really tiresome trying to explain simple English to you, but I'll try again. The previous poster asked "Why wouldn't she intervene?" or something to that effect. I replied that she might not have thought it was a big deal, and that that might be a common reaction. That's all there was to it. The question at issue was whether she played an active role (egging on, participating, etc.) or a passive role (seeing what Mr. Ravi was doing, and either shrugging at it or ignoring it).

Now, I'll go slow. Do I think secretly taping people being intimate and streaming it over the internet is wrong. Of course I do. Should it be illegal? Obviously. Will Ms. Wei's legal culpability be viewed differently if the scenario I described above proves to be the extent of her involvement. Yes.

But once again, the point here is that we don't really know what happened with respect to Ms. Wei, and that makes the near frothing responses on her case particularly alarming.

[bettyellen]

283. I'll go slow too, if she saw it and shrugged it off it doesn't matter if anyone thoguth it was "no

big deal" she was wrong to allow it to happen. it's tiesome to have to even explain that. the "american pie" thing is apparently since that movie had a scene where the lead (can't bear to call him the hero) filmed an encounter secretly, and people found it funny. many people are referencing it in regards to this case as a reason that this behaviour has become more common - or like you said, " no big deal". sorry for these kids if they don;t know the law, but it IS illegal. and it is a really big deal. usually the victims are women who unknowingly hooked up with assholes, just like in american pie, and it's rarelt rosecuted, because the victims feel shamed enough. it's really disturbing to hear the boys will be boys shit around here, and Im sorry if i got you wrong, but your post seemed to defend those notions. i think they're wrong headed and have no place in this conversation, none at all.

[alcibiades_mystery]

187. As should be clear

I'm describing the possible perception of such activities by a particular population, not my own perception. It's perfectly plausible to think that this sort of thing is not viewed as either aggressive or particularly objectionable by many young people. I get that you're trying to attribute these views to me, and thereby tar me as some kind of bad person, but that's neither here nor there. I was responding to a poster asking why Ms. Wei didn't intervene. It's plausible that she would consider what Mr. Ravi was doing to be bad taste, at worst, and not requiring attention or intervention.

[pnwmom]

294. Right. And an awful lot of people here have made up their minds

even though collectively all we really know is that a wonderful young man is dead.

It seems that a lot of people are letting that cloud their judgement. We need EVIDENCE before we can know what happened.

[pnwmom]

292. How do you know she saw what he was doing?

His tweet said that HE saw the guys "making out," not that THEY saw it.

How do you know, if she became aware, she didn't tell him to stop. The police aren't charging her in the second incident, so, for some reason, Ravi didn't go back to her room that time.

Which suddenly makes me wonder . . . where did he go? Why isn't someone else being charged? Or did that second incident even take place -- or did it fall apart before it could?

[pnwmom]

258. Nothing was streamed to the internet on the first night.

Or, at least, I haven't read anywhere that it was. Have you? It was on the second occasion that Ravi planned to do so, and Molly hasn't been charged in that incident.

I also haven't seen any evidence that it was her computer or that she saw the images -- or that she was even in the room. If you know better, care to share?

Ravi's tweet indicates only that HE viewed the images while in Molly's room -- nothing more. He doesn't say that "we" viewed the images or that "we" did anything, for that matter.

But let's assume that it was Molly's computer. When you let a friend or a relative borrow your laptop or computer, do you hang over their shoulder and supervise everything they do with it? I certainly don't. And I've sat at the same table with other people using computers, or even next to them on a couch, and never peered over at what they were doing.


Here are two tweets of Ravis. They don't imply that Molly helped plan the "prank," helped carry it out, or saw the images -- they don't even show that she was in the room.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20018088-504083....

"Roommate asked for the room till midnight. I went into molly's room and turned on my webcam. I saw him making out with a dude. Yay," Ravi said on his Twitter page in a Sept. 19 entry posted at 6:17 p.m., according to the New Jersey Star-Ledger.

Ravi allegedly broadcast that encounter but investigators would not say what video site it was posted to.

A few days later Ravi allegedly tweeted to his 150 followers telling them to "chat" him on iChat, an instant messaging sight with live video feed, the Star-Ledger reported.

"Anyone with iChat, I dare you to video chat me between the hours of 9:30 and 12. Yes it's happening again," Ravi wrote Sept. 21.

[ContraBass Black]

73. If she didn't know what Ravi was doing with her computer,

and wasn't directly involved, then that's terrible for her. Either way, she's probably finished at Rutgers and permanently unemployable due to her infamy. Legally, she probably accepted responsibility for anything that happened on her machine or through her ethernet connection when she signed the dorm lease, so that it was her duty to be aware of anyone using her computer and prevent its misuse.

[LisaL]

77. If people who get out of prison after serving time

for serious crime can get jobs, then I seriously doubt your claim that she will be permanently unemployable.

[COLGATE4]

82. Yeah - once she learns to say "You want fries with that" she's

off to wonderful employment in the service sector at $7.25 an hour.

[LisaL]

91. Hey I worked for less.

[pnwmom]

196. I've never seen a dorm lease with a clause like that, and my kids

have signed several.

[seabeyond]

78. interesting quandry. and have we become a societal bully to her, what she was to the guy that died?

if she were to then take her life, would we say tough shit, thumbs up.

interesting

this is all i am saying in this. i am more, action reaction, repercussions....

simply interesting quandry

[dkf]

105. Irony is both are terrified of societal judgment.

Clementi for being gay and Wei for sitting in her dorm room while something was going on. We are all the bullies. Mass condemnation and implacable judgmental behavior is the method we use.

[seabeyond]

118. and internets is a wonderfully effective tool. nt

[pnwmom]

205. And we don't even know for sure she was a bully, do we?

What if she just let a friend sit in her room and use his computer -- or even borrow hers? There's no evidence that she planned the "prank" or had been involved in any other bullying of Tyler.

But plenty of people are enjoying targeting her.

[AngryOldDem]

86. She "wishes it didn't go the way it did."

Little late for that, Molly. Someone who is as apparently as bright as you seem to be should have known from the start that this was most likely going to end very badly.

Oh...and the "contrition" you feel probably won't save your ass, but nice try.

[CraftyGal]

90. Can we please be civil here?

We have know idea as to what happened in Ms. Wei's room other than a video of Mr. Clementi was shot and dispersed from that room. As I read through the thread we are being as judgmental as they were. We have become the bully. Instead of speaking out on bullying and homophobia we are attacking a young woman who is feeling the terror now for make a huge mistake. Non of us a perfect, even if we like to think we are. It took me a long time to come out as being bisexual, especially in a conservative redneck city that i live in. I understand where Mr. Clementi is coming from as I have been there. Let's stop with the bullying tactics or we are no better than they were.

CraftyGal

[Cleobulus]

101. saying we aren't perfect isn't an excuse...

Seriously she either fucked up really bad(tip never let others use your computer). Or she's an asshole, thinking this "practical joke would be funny. In either case she deserves whatever the law can stick on her. And in addition, because of her demonstrated stupidity she should be forbidden from owning anything more complicated than a wind up pocketwatch.

[CraftyGal]

116. errr

I noticed you zeroed in on the not being perfect and not anything else that was mentioned. We are being no better than the bulliers of Mr. Clementi and the others who took their lives because of the bullying.

Crafytgal.

[bettyellen]

131. Fuck that, I am a much better person than he is. Sorry you think it;so benign what they did to him

we are here discussing a predicament she got herself into, at the very least, she kept some shitty company and it will take time to clear her of that.
what Ravi did? No comparison, please do not minimize it like that, it;s bullshit.

[CraftyGal]

243. I didn't say it was benign....

what I said was that we are being just as bad as they were.

This is what I said:

Can we please be civil here?

We have know idea as to what happened in Ms. Wei's room other than a video of Mr. Clementi was shot and dispersed from that room. As I read through the thread we are being as judgmental as they were. We have become the bully. Instead of speaking out on bullying and homophobia we are attacking a young woman who is feeling the terror now for make a huge mistake. Non of us a perfect, even if we like to think we are. It took me a long time to come out as being bisexual, especially in a conservative redneck city that i live in. I understand where Mr. Clementi is coming from as I have been there. Let's stop with the bullying tactics or we are no better than they were.

CraftyGal

This was Cleobulus' response:

saying we aren't perfect isn't an excuse...

Seriously she either fucked up really bad(tip never let others use your computer). Or she's an asshole, thinking this "practical joke would be funny. In either case she deserves whatever the law can stick on her. And in addition, because of her demonstrated stupidity she should be forbidden from owning anything more complicated than a wind up pocketwatch.

My respnse:

errr

I noticed you zeroed in on the not being perfect and not anything else that was mentioned. We are being no better than the bulliers of Mr. Clementi and the others who took their lives because of the bullying.

Crafytgal.

Not sure where you got that...

Craftygal

[bettyellen]

287. we are discussing new events, which is benign. taping someones private moment and broadcasting it

to the word in an attempt to shame them is not. quite the contrary. Ms Wei put herself in this position by at the least, having a shithead friend and giving him the opportunity to hurt someone. and maybe more..... these are the consequences of her actions, and here at DU we are a drop in the pond compared to what the real vicous people are saying and doing. that kid did nothing at all, was attacked for kissing someone, and was humiliated in front of all his peers for it. there's no comparison.

[CraftyGal]

305. I agree it is despicable what happened.

Ms Wei is a part of the bullying cycle. However does she deserve the hateful comments or death threats? I just can't believe if we are so against bullying that you are tcondoning the bullying fo this young lady. I don't believe we have that right. We are becoming like they bullies that we are so against.



CraftyGal

[Posteritatis]

291. I'm a much better person than those who pulled this stunt at Rutgers.

That stunt was more than a "mistake."

I don't have to be perfect for that to be true.

[mainer]

96. If he were straight, would he have committed suicide?

It's something that I've been pondering. Would a straight guy, secretly recorded having sex with his girlfriend, have felt the need to kill himself? If not, then the fault isn't just with these two kids; it's with all of society, for making a young man feel so despondent about his sexuality that he would feel the need to kill himself. Was he out to his family? If he wasn't, then the invasion of privacy could well have driven him to kill himself. But if he wasn't out, why not? Did his family not allow him to feel safe telling the truth? If were already out to them, would he have been suicidal?

And what about us? Would we feel as outraged about the taping if it were a straight kid being taped? While it was a cruel thing to do, it also seems like a typical Animal House prank. Your roommate kicks you out of your room for the evening, so you retaliate by filming him. If the kid were straight, he might have been outraged or embarrassed. But kill himself?

I think a lot of the blame rests with our homophobic society.

[bettyellen]

124. well, Ravi thought it was stream- worthy because he was gay, so that's kinda moot, isn;t it?

[Beaverhausen]

138. correct. If it was hetero sex it would not have been taped and streamed

[LisaL]

140. Yes, such a thing could never happen.

American pie, anyone?
:eyes:

[Beaverhausen]

148. American Pie?

sorry, I missed that masterpiece.

I just have serious doubts that any of this would have happened if Tyler was having hetero sex. But I guess we will have to wait and see what comes out at trial.

[LisaL]

151. Although I didn't watch the "masterpiece," there was a scene in it where the hero streamed

a video of himself attempting to have sex with a female to his friends in school.

[Beaverhausen]

164. What part of "the hero streamed a video of himself..." don't you get?

This is not relevant to what happened to Tyler. Idiot.

[LisaL]

167. Well, for one, in the movie, the female he was attemtping to have

sex with had no idea. Still fine with you, genius?

[bettyellen]

158. how abut reading the little assholes quotes. hey look . dude's kissing dude. Doh.

yeah it wasn;t about homophobia at all, it was about 2 guys kisisng.

[bettyellen]

156. hey Ravi's the one who twittered the "he's kissing a DUDE" not me. live with it.

[LisaL]

159. How do you know he wouldn't have done the same thing

if his roommate was in there with a female?

[bettyellen]

162. because of the glee with which he "unveiled" the fact his roomate was w/ a dude. it was his hook on

twitter, look hes kissing - a DUDE!!! he publicized it like it was a feak show, not buying this american pie thing. it;s not at all a comedy.

[Beaverhausen]

166. I was agreeing with you

I guess my post wasn't clear. Oops

[bettyellen]

179. Im sorry for misreading, but this American Pie defense is bullshit. I saw it done on TV occifer!

[LisaL]

181. A bullshit is to suggest that no way similar situation couldn't have

happened if this was heterosexual sex.

[bettyellen]

182. not after they tweet "hey look guys kissing" which is just what he did.

look i know there are lot of people who post videos of themselves and it;s fine with the partners consent, illegal and fucked up without it.
i know more of it happened after that stupid movie came out. and i know it has nothing to do with this case. he barely knew his room mate, it was viscous, now he's pretending (through surrogated) that he only spied out of concern for the poor kid. what insulting bullshit. this is not a prank, it;s real life nd it;s a crime to invade someones privacy.

[Marengo]

199. Prove that assertion N/T

[pnwmom]

221. Of course not. No one's ever streamed hetero sex before.

:sarcasm:

[bettyellen]

288. does this somehow make it okay to you? because it appears that way.

women are more and more often the victim of this stuff, and they are slut shamed into being quiet about it. because of this, guys get away with t. guess what? it;s still illegal, and not okay at all.

[LisaL]

136. Filming someone having sex without their knowledge and

consent is illegal. So I fail to see why it should be considered a prank.
As for a straight male killing himself over this, while unlikely, we really don't know what someone would or wouldn't do, do we? Let's say the girl he was having sex with broke up with him over this. Then, he goes off and kills himself in despair, possible, no?

[pnwmom]

197. I agree. Society as a whole is to blame, in addition

to whatever these two students might be guilty of.

[Odin2005]

107. Call the WAAAAHmbulance!!!

:eyes:

[11 Bravo]

146. Damn, I hope she doesn't kill herself.

[meow mix]

154. glad to hear it... hateful spying !#(%^%*# deserves worse

people that defend her disgust me as well

[pnwmom]

206. It disgusts me when so-called progressives are so quick to attack someone

when there has been virtually no evidence put forward about anything that she did.

All we know for sure is that Ravi went to her room to look at his room on the web cam. We don't know that she even saw the images. His own emails suggest that he did everything, and they don't implicate her. And she hasn't been charged with being involved in the second incident -- the one where Ravi hoped to stream images to his Twitter friends (but didn't.)

[meow mix]

245. "hey lets spy on this guy and humilate him with your computer" "okay!"

im sure it went about like that.

[pnwmom]

269. It could just as easily have been: "hey can I use your laptop for a few minutes?

"Sure."

[meow mix]

276. ridiculous to think he would be engaged in exposing a person

and keep it secret from his good friend.

i guess you just want to deny sense, in order to make excuses for a disgusting phobic criminal. sick.

[pnwmom]

280. From everything I've read, it sounds like he didn't stream it

the first night. He didn't know what he was going to see until he saw it. He didn't tweet about what he did till AFTERWARDS. And in those tweets he said, "I saw" not "We saw." Why wouldn't he have said "we saw" if that was the case? Just reading his tweet, all that can be determined is that HE turned on the webcam from Wei's room. And HE saw the images. That's it. Wei could have been ANYWHERE, based on the tweet -- sitting right next to him, or across the room reading a book, or even in the bathroom -- you can't tell. All we know for sure is that he said, "I" saw the images -- not "we."

Then, a couple nights later, he tried to follow this up with a ichat with his friends (it's not clear whether this streaming actually happened, but the tweet does exist). Wei was NOT charged in this second incident. Why? If she was such an enthusiastic supporter the first night, why not the second? Maybe she told him she didn't want to be involved.

You're supposed to be an intelligent, progressive person. And yet you're willing to condemn someone on the basis of practically no evidence -- the only evidence actually tending to exonerating her. Sad.

[PVnRT]

309. So, nobody should comment on anything about this

until the trial has been concluded and all evidence is made public, then?

Pray tell, what are we allowed to discuss? Please let me know.

[City Lights]

175. Cry me a river, Molly.

:nopity:

[McCamy Taylor]

195. Poor her. You think she is suffering even a fraction of what Tyler suffered? Not a chance.

What we she think if someone posted video of her having sex online for her family to see?

[pnwmom]

207. You are generally a very reasonable person.

Take a look at the actual evidence, please. A lot of people here are lumping the two defendants together, but I haven't seen any evidence about Molly's involvement in what happened. Ravi's emails talked about what HE was doing -- they didn't say anything about Molly except that he went to her room. There's nothing to suggest that she was involved in the planning of this. And the police didn't even charge her in the second incident, when Ravi was planning to stream the video to his Twitter friends (but apparently didn't.)

What if all Molly did was say yes when a high school friend asked if he could sit in her room and use his laptop? What if all she did was say yes when the friend asked to borrow her laptop?

On a college campus, this kind of thing happens all the time. Roommates get kicked out; they go sit in a friend's room. Maybe they even ask to use their computer. Is it the responsibility of the lender to look over the user's shoulder and supervise everything that's being done on the computer? (Assuming it even was Molly's computer that was used -- the police haven't said, so far.)

I know that when I'm near someone, a friend or family member, who's using a computer, I don't hang over them and watch everything. Do you? Should you be sent to prison because you didn't?

Yes, I know MAYBE she did more. My point is that right now there is no EVIDENCE that she did. Let's wait for the police to develop their case before jumping to conclusions.

[Terra Alta]

202. Molly is learning karma is a bitch

I don't feel sorry for her. She helped to drive a young man to suicide; she deserves whatever she gets.

[pnwmom]

208. Better be careful not ever to sit in a room with someone using a laptop.

Karma might get back at you.

(Unless you have evidence that she did more than that -- which of course I'm sure you're sharing with the police.)

[JI7]

213. nobody who is defending her have said she had no idea what was going on

they say things like she made a mistake and didn't do the actual filming. but none of them have said that she had no idea what RAvi was doing.

i mean, if that was the case with someone i knew or myself i would put that out there. i understand maybe she can't speak but her friends and other defenders are speaking and they haven't denied she knew what was going on.

[bettyellen]

214. and the emails haven;t been published either, I don;t ge where this info comes from

[pnwmom]

257. As I told you, I meant to say "tweets" -- and they have been published.

And they don't imply that Molly helped plan the "prank," helped carry it out, or saw the images -- they don't even show that she was in the room.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20018088-504083.html?tag=contentMain

"Roommate asked for the room till midnight. I went into molly's room and turned on my webcam. I saw him making out with a dude. Yay," Ravi said on his Twitter page in a Sept. 19 entry posted at 6:17 p.m., according to the New Jersey Star-Ledger.

Ravi allegedly broadcast that encounter but investigators would not say what video site it was posted to.

A few days later Ravi allegedly tweeted to his 150 followers telling them to "chat" him on iChat, an instant messaging sight with live video feed, the Star-Ledger reported.

"Anyone with iChat, I dare you to video chat me between the hours of 9:30 and 12. Yes it's happening again," Ravi wrote Sept. 21.

[pnwmom]

222. She made a mistake letting him sit in her room, that's for sure.

We don't know anything beyond that, however.

[JI7]

223. we do know she had friends defending her and none of them have said she had no idea

what he was doing.

we do know that Ravi tweeted about what he was going to do so it's more likely than not that he would tell the friend that was close enough to hang out with and use their computer .

we do know that it's easy to see what other people are doing on the computer ,especially if it;s a small space like a dorm room. even if you aren't trying to see.

why haven't any of the friends defending her said that she had no idea what Ravi was going ?

[pnwmom]

232. We don't know that she had anything to do with what her friends

are saying, either. Her attorney, if he's any good, has already told her not to talk about the case to anyone. Including her friends. (And that's not evidence of guilt -- it's standard procedure.) The friends could very well be guessing, based on what they read in the papers. Just like what everyone else is doing.

Ravi's tweet to his friends came before the 2nd incident that he planned, not the first. And she wasn't involved in the 2nd incident -- he was charged, but she wasn't. Why didn't he plan to go back to HER room for the second episode -- if she was in favor of it? Why would he have to go somewhere else?

[bettyellen]

235. he tweeted about watching it from Mollys room. where did YOU see his emails, anyway?

they weren;t released yet you're sayiing you know they exonerate her? let's see a link, thank you.

[pnwmom]

241. A couple of Ravi's "tweets" have been released.

I misspoke when I referred to them as emails. Note that he said "I saw him making out with a dude" NOT "we saw him." He also doesn't say whose computer he was using.

"Roommate asked for the room till midnight. I went into molly's room and turned on my webcam. I saw him making out with a dude. Yay," Ravi said on his Twitter page in a Sept. 19 entry posted at 6:17 p.m., according to the New Jersey Star-Ledger.

Ravi allegedly broadcast that encounter but investigators would not say what video site it was posted to.

A few days later Ravi allegedly tweeted to his 150 followers telling them to "chat" him on iChat, an instant messaging sight with live video feed, the Star-Ledger reported.

"Anyone with iChat, I dare you to video chat me between the hours of 9:30 and 12. Yes it's happening again," Ravi wrote Sept. 21.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20018088-504083.html?tag=contentMain;contentBody
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The emails that the police are subpoenaing now are related to Clementi's contacts with Rutgers.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20018868-504083.html

Prosecutors have subpoenaed Rutgers University to get a hold of e-mails concerning how the school handled complaints from freshman Tyler Clementi that his roommate used a webcam to broadcast video on the Internet of him in a sexual encounter with another man.

[kevinbgoode]

272. Has anyone said ANYTHING about the partner Tyler was with?

That man is still alive, after all - do the accused (and the media) have any idea how all of this must be affecting him?

[Terra Alta]

216. I'm sure the police have the evidence

They must have had enough evidence to charge her, right?

They were close friends in high school.. he was in HER room using HER laptop. She'd have to be completely clueless not to know what's going on.

[pnwmom]

237. No. Police frequently charge people without enough evidence.

They hope to develop it before the trial. Sometimes that works for them . . . and other times the defendant is found "not guilty." (Remember the police case against the falsely accused Duke lacrosse players? They appeared to have a ton of evidence -- but it turned out to all be crap.)

Police also will often charge two defendants because they want to force one to testify against the other.

[nadinbrzezinski]

217. While in an ideal world she should not be socially shamed

until the trial is over...

Truth be told this was not nice. I will reserve comments about monster until after the trial, that thing about not guilty and all that though. If a jury finds her guilty... well then, THROW the book at her.

[WinkyDink]

225. Newsflash! This is an OPINION board! We can think whatever we want outside of the jury box!

For instance, I think Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld are war criminals----YET I don't know all the evidence nor has there been any trial!

[pnwmom]

250. There is a difference between having NO evidence and

not having seen ALL the evidence.

With Bush, we all saw plenty of evidence, even if there never was a trial.

In the case of Molly Wei, we have seen practically no evidence. (If you can point to any evidence against her, I'd be interested in seeing it.) With her friend Ravi, we have seen his tweets -- which appear to condemn him, but not her. He says, "I saw him making out" not "We saw him."

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20018088-504083.html?tag=contentMain

"Roommate asked for the room till midnight. I went into molly's room and turned on my webcam. I saw him making out with a dude. Yay," Ravi said on his Twitter page in a Sept. 19 entry posted at 6:17 p.m., according to the New Jersey Star-Ledger.

Ravi allegedly broadcast that encounter but investigators would not say what video site it was posted to.

A few days later Ravi allegedly tweeted to his 150 followers telling them to "chat" him on iChat, an instant messaging sight with live video feed, the Star-Ledger reported.

"Anyone with iChat, I dare you to video chat me between the hours of 9:30 and 12. Yes it's happening again," Ravi wrote Sept. 21.

[JI7]

259. That it was HER computer in HER room IS evidence

one could say Bush had no idea what was going on. he was drunk the whole time and Cheney ran the show.

[pnwmom]

265. How do you know it was her computer? Ravi doesn't say that in the tweet.

Did you read that somewhere else? Somewhere reliable?

But let's assume, for the sake of argument, it was Molly's computer. When someone commits a crime using a library's computer, do we hold the library responsible? Do we expect the librarian to look over every user's shoulder?

[blondeatlast]

281. Keep spamming that stuff if you must. There's no expectation of privacy at all on a

library's computer. By using the library's computer, you are agreeing that you alone are responsible for the content you access--even if you don't read the fine print. It's called a "click-thru" contract and it is enforceable.

A computer in a person's bedroom is an entirely different matter. Presumably, it should be for your use alone. Even if you allow others to use it without permission, you are accepting some degree of responsibility for what is done on it. It's reasonable to expect that if one didn't want one's roommate using it, it would be strongly password protected or reasonably secured in another way.

She's gonna have to answer for at least those issues; doesn't matter how innocent she may in fact be.

[pnwmom]

300. There's no criminal law that says if you lend your computer to someone

you're responsible for anything they might do with it. There's no criminal law that says if you lend your car to a licensed driver you're responsible for how they drive with it.

You're failing to distinguish between civil courts, which might award damages in both these cases (depending entirely on circumstances); and criminal courts. People aren't put in prison because of something someone else did, unless that person is working as their agent. (And there's no evidence that Ravi was working as Wei's agent.) Unless they can prove Wei herself did something -- other than lending her computer or letting him sit in her room -- they don't have a case.

I'm reserving judgment until there's a trial, or at least until there's been a lot more evidence than we seen. But so far, nothing implicates Wei.

[WinkyDink]

278. Fine; call some of the posters ignorant. But do NOT try to claim they/we have no "right" to opine.

[bettyellen]

285. the tweets "appear" to condemn him, huh? i guess you have some college aged boys then...

because i don't see anyone else tip toing around giving this kid such a wide berth. No ones saying he didn;t do it, they are only trying to pretend he did it out of some concern for his roomate, which, given his tweets, completely ridiculous.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

227. "I want my life back"

It worked well for the CEO of BP, it'll work for dear Molly.

:hi:

[Name removed]

234. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

260. Oh boo hoo

:nopity:

[RFKHumphreyObama]

263. Good. I hope her and her stupid perverted friend feel like this for the rest of their

miserable, worthless, pathetic lives. They deserve the same lack of compassion and sympathy that they showed their victim

[JI7]

264. shouldn't Dharun Ravi be charged with being a Sexual Predator

[cbdo2007]

266. And now all of DU jumps in to do to her exactly what she did to Tyler Clementi.

I'm not seeing how anyone here judging her is any different than her judging Tyler Clementi.

Being glad that she is being held responsible for her role in Tyler Clementi's bullying, sexual broadcasting, and suicide is one thing...

...but all the other random hateful, vengeful stuff here is abhorrent.

[JI7]

267. i'm sure secretly being taped having sex and broadcast to others

is a lot worse than what the fuck is going on in this fucking thread.

Tyler was a Quiet kid and his parents were going to come the saturday before he killed himself to watch him perform. he had not come out to them yet. imagine how he must have felt.

no comparison.

[pnwmom]

301. There's been NO evidence released yet showing that she did that.

Only a couple of tweets written by Ravi in which HE took full credit.

[WinkyDink]

277. Try this : WE ARE NOT SHOWING A FILM ON YOUTUBE.

[blondeatlast]

282. +1. Amazing that the obvious must be stated, but apparently it must.

And sadly, WD, I still don't think it will help the deliberately obtuse.

[bettyellen]

284. you broadcast Molly getting it on with a gay man? Really? dumbest post ever.

[Jamastiene]

270. The world's smallest fucking violin plays on...

:nopity:

[terrya]

275. She and her friend are still alive. Tyler Clementi is dead.

I have zero sympathy for this woman and her friend.

[pnwmom]

302. Why are you lumping these two students together?

Ravi was the one who wrote the tweets describing what HE was doing. He didn't say Molly had done anything, including viewing the images. If you have some evidence that she had some part of the planning or execution of this "prank," you should take it to the prosecutors.

[NuttyFluffers]

279. well, she's fortunate to be alive enough to feel...

her victim doesn't share her fortune, however.

bad judgment has consequences. too bad, so sad. at least she's alive enough to feel.

[independent_voter]

289. an unfortunate side effect of her unprovoked cruelty

perhaps she needs to learn to connect the dots

[pnwmom]

296. What did she do that was cruel? Say yes to a friend that asked

to sit in her room while his was occupied? Maybe say yes to letting him borrowing her computer?

Because we have no evidence that she participated in this at all, except for a tweet by Ravi in which he says that HE turned on the webcam from her room, and that HE viewed his roommate. He doesn't mention her at all -- though numerous news accounts, all quoting from the Newark Star Ledger, have paraphrased his tweet in a way that makes it appear that he implicated Wei. But he didn't. He didn't say that she helped him turn on the webcam or that she saw what he was viewing on the computer screen. He only said that HE did.

The prosecutors aren't charging her with the second incident. Why? If she was such a big player in this, why wasn't she involved? So where did Ravi go then? Why isn't a third person being charged? Or maybe the planned streaming didn't occur at all.

[miyazaki]

303. Your asking these hyenas? n/t

[KamaAina]

297. Methinks she needs a ride to University Health Services

[apocalypsehow]

299. This thread has gone just about the way I expected it would. n/t.

[CraftyGal]

307. Interesting time line on what happened....

Tyler Clementi Bullying Time Line. Ms Wei isn't even mentioned here.

CraftyGal

[PVnRT]

308. Oh, well, golly shucks, if she feels bad, I guess that's punishment enough

:sarcasm: