On soldiers, patriotism and propaganda.

[Touchdown]

I was a Medic in the Army in the 80s. I served my time, Was assigned to an armored cavalry regiment, got smelly in a tank, did some push ups, cleaned some toilets, got drunk, picked up smoking, made some fast friends and lost track of them just as fast... and I learned to say "fuck" in every sentence. I wasn't very special, didn't have any distinction that set me apart, and I wasn't that exemplary of a soldier. I was just there. Just like the 1 or so million others who were also in the military, and wondering why they joined in the first place. I got an honorable discharge, and went my own way after. No big deal. The reasons I joined are rather simple and selfish, to tell the truth. They offered me College money. As a son of a deadbeat Dad, I had no money for college, so it was an offer I could use. I was offered to be stationed in Germany... something really cool to a 19 year old. Most of all I wanted to get the fuck out of Yakima Washington right after high school. That town is a sink hole.

What I did not join for is an unhinged love and slavering devotion to my country, it's cause or the principles I know much more about in my 40s than I ever hoped to know as a teenager. Without polling data or any kind of statistical facts to support me, I would guess that 95% of all of our kids in their first enlistment and more than half of "lifers" joined for pretty much the same, self interested reasons I did. In Today's economy, it's a job. Pure and simple. The Great United States of America and the corporations that run it and tell us to love it, made sure there are few opportunities for young people just starting out. Then there are the signing bonuses, which in terms of 5 figure dollar amounts, is fairly new. Some even joined because they were pressured or offered a bill of goods by recruiters who never take "No!" for an answer. Of course college money, a chance to escape an oppressive town/city/ghetto, and many other reasons to numerous to mention are why people join.

Again, the last reason most of these kids join is some abstract "Love of Country" and a genuflecting desire to "sacrifice for the principles we all hold dear." That is propaganda. It's jingoism, triumphalism, Nationalism, Military worship, servile and and a load of shit! It's not only shit, it's dangerous. It's how stupid and deadly wars get popular endorsement, and shuts down any dissent, or questioning of said stupid an deadly war. Now, I'm sure there are a handfull of kids who did join for some abstract lofty 'King and Country' goal, but I'm willing to bet they were force fed a bunch of crap from their parents, churches, and a steady diet of TV bloviaters putting those beliefs in their heads. They do exist. I knew a couple when I was in. But they are, definitely a minority. Most American kids like their cars, their iPods, their cellphones, their Rap and Rock, their boyfriends and their chicks. They obsess over their zits, not some unknown "America Hater".

I could be amenable to the message of "support the troops" if it actually had any meaning behind it. Such as making the hospitals better and staffing them with what is necessary. Supporting a defense strategy that has real existential survival reasons behind it, and not a load of "Patriot" talk about God and Country to mask the profit motive for taking over a country and privatizing all of it's resources. To provide for the health and wellbeing of wounded and disabled vets that came back maimed for corporate profit. These things, and many others I could get behind. But alas, the "Support the Troops" order is just as plastic and fake as those who claim the loudest that they are more patriotic than thou, so it'll have to be called something else. "Support the Troops" is tainted.

Another trouble I see, which is where I get my amazement at times, is that many of my fellow veterans seem to fall for the worship and misinterpret that as actual support. Rest assured, those car magnets are made in China and carry a steady profit for the company that sells them... and none of that profit any soldier or vet will ever see. Maybe because I wasn't pumped up with buzzwords enough to be brainwashed of how proud I should be of myself, but I also find it crass to use one's active duty or veteran's status as any sort of claim of authority in... really anything. "Well this is how a car should be waxed. I served my country and sacrificed myself for YOU, so I know what I'm talking about. There is no debate! You didn't serve. You don't know how to wax a car!"

I can count on one hand how many times I've used my military service or veteran status as a trump card in arguments or debates, and even then they were only when my "support of the troops" was questioned. A rhetorical "gotcha" trap I fell into, and bought into the useless meme for a short time. As a short fused Irishman, it's a problem for me. I'll try and take my own advice from now on.

They can be heroes. They can be said to have sacrificed. They can be honored. They can be loved. They even can be supported. What they do not need, or even want, is religious devotion and worship at their polished boots, because they know more than I know that it's phony, and they can see right through those who do it and claim for themselves the mantle of "Patriot"... whether they actually served or not.

[RandomThoughts]

1. I respect your service from your perspective.

However there are many types of service, and most of them are not using a chemically propelled piece of lead.

I do understand the concept of service, and how within perspective the military, and veterans deserve much honor and recognition for their choice to serve.

But most service, has nothing to do with the military, and is done ever day in households, streets and at places of work across every nation.

So those that see everything as military concepts of war, probably don't understand the very things you mention, war itself, is much of the problem.

And there are forces that want war, they create imbalance and concentrations of wealth so people will fight for what others have.


If my comments ever seem to sound like I don't respect the military, that is not true, I respect their perspective of how they see the conflict, however most of them don't know what the 'war' really is, and that is part of the problem.

Peace and love :loveya:

[Touchdown]

8. See... and I should thank you for the respect...

But honestly, I don't need respect for just joining. I really don't think many of us do. I think over the last 9 years since 9/11 it's become almost a requirement to put anybody who just joined up on a pedestal as if we all do this out of altruistic reasons. Since I joined in the 80s and never had to be forced into combat, I may have a much less demand for worship than I'm given, but it just seems kind of ingratiating the way some of the right wing get it wrong.

Greatness can be thrust upon us at times (Pat Tillman), but for the most part, we were just kids who just found ourselves in the military for whatever reasons, and usually not about sacrifice for God and Country. I'm not sure teenagers have much of an interest in 'God and Country'.

[JonLP24]

2. I agree with this

I joined when a recruiter asked me, "What job trains you for free for over 300 different jobs?" when I was at the bus stop on my way to apply for a job I probably wasn't going to get. That was it. I was pretty much against joining the military my whole life and probably a week before that day. I was desperate but 300 different job types I could choose from intrigued me.

On edit-I was stationed in Ft. Lewis and did training at Yakima a few times. I know what you mean about wanting to get away from that place!

[L0oniX]

3. These quotes rap it all up for me.

Military men are just dumb stupid animals to be used as pawns in foreign policy. - Henry Kissinger

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children." - Dwight Eisenhower

You measure a democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists.- Abbie Hoffman


Blind obedience to authority is the enemy of the truth. - Albert Einstein

Become an internationalist and learn to respect all life. Make war on machines. And in particular the sterile machines of corporate death and the robots that guard them. -Abbie Hoffman

That worst outcrop of herd life, the military system, which I abhor . . . This plague-spot of civilization ought to be abolished with all possible speed. Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism–how passionately I hate them! – Albert Einstein

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Never was a patriot yet, but was a fool. – John Dryden

A patriot is a fool in every age. – Alexander Pope.

Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel. – Samuel Johnson

In Dr. Johnson’s famous dictionary, patriotism is defined as the last resort of a scoundrel. With all due respect to an enlightened but inferior lexicographer, I beg to submit that it is the first. – Ambrose Bierce

Patriotism is as fierce as a fever, pitiless as the grave, blind as a stone, and irrational as a headless hen. – Ambrose Bierce

That pernicious sentiment, “Our country, right or wrong.” – James Russell Lowell

“My country right or wrong” is a thing that no patriot would think of saying except in a desperate case. It is like saying, “My mother drunk or sober.” – G. K. Chesterton

Patriotism which has the quality of intoxication is a danger not only to its native land but to the world, and “My country never wrong” is an even more dangerous maxim than “My country, right or wrong.” – Bertrand Russell

Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it. – George Bernard Shaw

Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious. – George Bernard Shaw

You’ll never have a quiet world till you knock the patriotism out of the human race. – George Bernard Shaw

Patriotism is a pernicious, psychopathic form of idiocy. – George Bernard Shaw

Patriotism is an ephemeral motive that scarcely ever outlasts the particular threat to society that aroused it. – Denis Diderot

To me, it seems a dreadful indignity to have a soul controlled by geography. – George Santayana

The Athenian democracy suffered much from that narrowness of patriotism which is the ruin of all nations. – H.G. Wells

Nationalism is our form of incest, is our idolatry, is our insanity. “Patriotism” is its cult. . . . Just as love for one individual which excludes the love for others is not love, love for one’s country which is not part of one’s love for humanity is not love, but idolatrous worship. – Erich Fromm

One of the great attractions of patriotism–it fulfills our worst wishes. In the person of our nation we are able, vicariously, to bully and cheat, Bully and cheat, what’s more, with a feeling that we are profoundly virtuous. – Aldous Huxley

Many studies have discovered a close link between prejudice and “patriotism” . . . Extreme bigots are almost always super-patriots – Gordon Allport

It seems like the less a statesman amounts to, the more he loves the flag. – Elbert Hubband

Patriotism varies, from a noble devotion to a moral lunacy. – William Inge

Every miserable fool who has nothing at all of which he can be proud, adopts, as a last resource, pride in the nation to which he belongs; he is ready and glad to defend all its faults and follies tooth and nail, thus reimbursing himself for his own inferiority. – Arthur Schopenhauer

Patriotism is the passion of fools and the most foolish of passions. – Arthur Schopenhauer

Patriotism corrupts history. – Goethe

Into the cultural and technological system of the modern world, the patriotic spirit fits like dust in the eyes and sand in the bearings. Its net contribution to the outcome is obscuration, distrust, and retardation at every point where it touches the fortunes of modern mankind. – Thorstein Veblen

The standardization of mass-production carries with it a tendency to standardize a mass-mind, producing a willing conformity, not merely to common ways of living, but to common ways of thinking and common valuations. The worst defect of patriotism is its tendency to foster and impose this common mind, and so to stifle the innumerable germs of liberty. – J.A. Hobson

2. Patriotism and War:

At the bottom of all patriotism is war: that is why I am no patriot. – Jules Renard

No other factor in history, not even religion, has produced so many wars as has the clash of national egotisms sanctified by the name of patriotism. – Preserved Smith

Naturally the common people don’t want war . . . Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders . . . All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism. – Hermann Goering.


3. Patriotism and Religion:

Patriotism is a kind of religion; it is the egg from which wars are hatched. – Guy de Maupassant

God and Country are an unbeatable team; they break all records for oppression and bloodshed. – Luis Buñuel

To be patriotic, hate all nations but your own; to be religious, all sects but your own; to be moral, all pretenses but your own. – Lionel Strachey

When a dog barks at the moon, then it is religion; but when he barks at strangers, it is patriotism! – David Starr Jordan

4. The American Syndrome:

If you have a weak candidate and a weak platform, wrap yourself up in the American flag and talk about the Constitution. – Matt Quay

How much longer are we going to think it necessary to be “American” before (or in contradistinction to) being cultivated, being enlightened, being humane, & having the same intellectual discipline as other civilized countries? It is really too easy a disguise for our shortcomings to dress them up as a form of patriotism. – Edith Wharton

The 100 percent American is 99 percent an idiot. – George Bernard Shaw

Treason is in the air around us everywhere. It goes by the name of patriotism. – Thomas Corwin

5. Three relatively positive assessments of patriotism:

A patriot is somebody who protects his country from his government. Or better yet: who has the guts to protect his country from its government. – Piotyr Dirk

Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism. – George Washington

Dissent is the highest form of patriotism. – Thomas Jefferson

[GoneOffShore]

16. And I'll add another just to wrap it up further and "button" the quotes:

DULCE ET DECORUM EST
By Wilfred Owen
Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge. .....

Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est
Pro patria mori.*

*How sweet and fitting it is to die for one's country.
The old, old lie.

More here - http://www.warpoetry.co.uk/owen1.html

[Scuba]

39. Great quotes, thanks. As a veteran I concur.

[mike_c]

4. hear hear!

Rec'd! Excellent post.

[ThomWV]

5. You hit the nail on the head - and I can't believe this has been Unrecommended

[rrneck]

6. My dad served in WWII and Korea.

He was drafted for the first one and pulled out of reserves for the second. When I was in high school I considered the military and here's what he told me:

"Well it's your choice, but just remember that when you sign up you're just a piece of meat with a rifle."

Often as not by glorifying our military we are just consoling ourselves for the evil we do to others; those that we kill and those who we send to do the killing.

[felix_numinous]

7. K+R

[Bigmack]

9. From: "The Short Timers"...

Later made into "Full Metal Jacket"...

"Flush out your head gear, new guy. You think we waste gooks for freedom? This is a slaughter. If I’m gonna get my balls blown off for a word … my word is ‘poontang.’"

I joined the Corps when Kennedy asked me what I was going to do for my country. I ended up fucking over and killing dark people for nothing.

Touchdown... I can't say it so well as you do, but I certainly agree with what you say.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

10. 4 years in the Marine Crotch erased any shred of "patriotism" I had.

When they asked me to extend my enlistment to go and kill people I didn't know, had no disagreements with, for the sake of LBJ's reputation as an anti-Communist. It was downright insulting to think I would become a murderer for the ambitions of a politician. Or, for something as nebulous as "My Country".

[Touchdown]

11. I wasn't ever in a war or "Conflict" as they called yours.

I honestly don't know what kind of person I would've turned into had I been told that line of crap that was told to you.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

12. Neither was I because I told them what to do with the war.

Which landed me 30 days mess duty for being a smartass. I'd do it again in our current wars.

[Touchdown]

13. Kick to 1st page again. I guess beating up hippies is more important

than brainwashing... but then I repeat myself.

[Vickers]

14. K&R I also joined in the 80s and I'd guess that 99% were there because

of economics (me included).

I think we had like one or two gung-ho types in Basic, and ironically they didn't do very well.

[w8liftinglady]

15. You described my stance to a "t"

As a member of Veterans for Peace,national Coalition for Homeless Veterans and Military Families Speak Out,I have been astounded by the "Rah-rah" rusting Chinese "Support the Troops" magnets on the vehicles of the same people who tell me I am an un-American piece of crap for wanting our troops home and our veterans cared for.
My son joined the Army about 6 months after 9/11-for many of the reasons you listed.He trained as a heavy machinery mechanic,but only spent 6 months of one of three tours in Iraq doing that.The shit they tell you to get you through the door flies out the window once you've signed on the dotted line.

And God help you when you get home-the same chickenhawks who sent you turn their collective backs on you.

[bahrbearian]

17. K&R

[USArmyParatrooper]

18. Where I think you go wrong is taking things to extremes.

You say people don't join for a romantic love of, "king and country!" - that the vast majority join for selfish reasons. I say the majority join for both - to a lesser degree than you describe. While it is true that a big part of it has to do with reasons pay and benefits, I also believe most soldiers believe what they do matters. That by serving they are providing a public service, and they are.

I also think by and large most people appreciate service members because what they do is neccessary, it is hard and in many cases it involves great personal risk. Disagree with their sentiment all you want, but it is not irrational. It sounds like you're digruntled from your experience, but that doesn't mean people who feel differently should be dismissed as "brainwashed."

My mother still has one of those meaningless, superficial "Suppet the Troops" ribbons on her car. She bought it when she came to Fort Bragg to see me off before my first deloyment. She got to hang out with me and some guys from from my platoon for a few days and she broke out in tears twice. Once when we started drawing weapons from the arms room, and once more when we said our final goodbyes. I know it's a popular theme to make disparage those stickers, but I suspect more often that not they are far from meaningless.

[Touchdown]

19. No. I don't think so.

Very few do this out of the nebulous idea of of doing what what you say as "matters' because they drew that conclusion all on their own. They may believe but, but they were convinced of it by someone else. Someone with always something to sell. Why are you trying to explain to me how things work in the military? I was there. I thought I covered that in my OP.

I wasn't disgruntled by my experience. It was what it was. I don't regret ever going in, only that it led to a life experience (one of those forks in the road things) that gave me 20 years of tobacco addiction. I also did not "Dismiss" anyone. I dismiss the message, because it's not true, and never has been true.

But, I do want to thank you for giving me the perfect example of my points. As a fellow DUer and pretty much the only one who has ever questioned my patriotism or was presumptuous enough to assume I had never served, and then used that presumption to invalidate anything I had to say, your post is quite telling.

I have enough self worth and confidence that I don't need to resort to blatant shownamship and use a credibility chit user name or a slobbering devotional picture in my sig line. You want to know who I am, or what life I led? Talk to me. I am not a bumper sticker.

[USArmyParatrooper]

23. Oh boy...

Very few do this out of the nebulous idea of of doing what what you say as "matters' because they drew that conclusion all on their own. They may believe but, but they were convinced of it by someone else.

I completey disagree, and I reject your notion that people who disagree with you can't possibly be doing so out of independant thought.

Why are you trying to explain to me how things work in the military? I was there.

For the same reason you're trying to tell me how it works. I still am there. As someone who also has experience I happen to disagree with you.

I also did not "Dismiss" anyone.

Sure you have. By assuming anyone who serves even partially for a sense of purpose MUST have had that put in their head. I mean God forbit someone of independant thought see things differently than you.

But, I do want to thank you for giving me the perfect example of my points. As a fellow DUer and pretty much the only one who has ever questioned my patriotism or was presumptuous enough to assume I had never served, and then used that presumption to invalidate anything I had to say, your post is quite telling.

Copy and paste anywhere I questioned your patriotism or suggested you never served. The fact that you can't is quite telling and thank you for making MY point.

I have enough self worth and confidence that I don't need to resort to blatant shownamship and use a credibility chit user name or a slobbering devotional picture in my sig line. You want to know who I am, or what life I led? Talk to me. I am not a bumper sticker

I choose this screen name because it dispells the myth that being a Democrat means being anti-military. I chose that signature because I greatly appreciate how much Obama has done for veterans, and few people even know how much he's done. But I guess if you're going to assume nobody can independantly feel a sense of pupose with their service, why not make other assumptions.

[Touchdown]

25. Oh' Boy, indeed.

You disagree. Fine. It feels good to be worshipped. I'm sure the Iraq vet sleeping under an overpass tonight feels that same as you do.

Copy and paste anywhere I questioned your patriotism or suggested you never served. The fact that you can't is quite telling and thank you for making MY point.
You are not near as good at the rope-a-dope as you think you are. You know it's against the rules, and like a chicken you want the admins to ban me for it. But I will give you this. You made your assumptions in one of the 100s of "Shut up and fall in line" threads, and you were among many who swarmed me in that thread.

Although I'm dubious to continue arguing with you, as you have a simple different opinion, which I can accept, I however am curious what you mean EXACTLY when you say a "sense of purpose".

I choose this screen name because it dispells the myth that being a Democrat means. Who says I was talking about you? All of my words in that line are first person possessive. What gave you the idea... oh' I see. Just a coinkidink.:hi:

[USArmyParatrooper]

31. Where are all these tangents coming from?

I wouldn't know what it's like to be worshipped. I'm not deity, nor do have I ever been treated like one.

What's this rope-a-dope crap? I'm not playing rope-a-dope, scabble or chess. Beleive it or not I was actually trying to have a real conversation. But if chess is your game I'm a big fan of the French Defense and Evans Gambit.

Nowhere in any of my posts have I ever questioned your patriotism or military service. But by all means prove I'm the one talking out my ass with a copy and paste. It is NOT against the rules for you to point out an accusation made by me against you and respond. But if you still want to hide behind that just reply to the accusation itself. Surely that's not against the rules, right?

A sense of purpose meaning a valuable service to this country.

You were referencing me and we both know it. But I don't expect you to admit it, nor do I want you to. I'm not interested in having your post deleted. I'm interested in pointing how absurd it is, and I already did that.

[Touchdown]

33. I do not have "real conversations" with bullies who call me an extremist.

"TAKING IT TO EXTREMES" is the phrase you used, which means you called me an extremist. I also am not interested in "real conversations" with people who question my patriotism. You did. I verified it, and ever since then, I have noticed you have been a blowhard and a bully everywhere you stomp on this site. You didn't even mention what you did agree with in your post. It was all negative and accusatory. You didn't even read closely enough to see that I mentioned Lifers like you in a different category.

Those are not "real conversation" starters, Sarge, or Captain, or whateverthefuck.

[USArmyParatrooper]

37. You are just itching to play the victim aren't you

Saying you are taking your examples to extremes is NOT even remotely calling you an "exremist."

Oh I did question your patriotism? SHOW ME. Again, it is not against the rules to point out and respond to an accusation. Still the best you can come up with is, "Well, I verfied it. You'll just have to take my word for it."

Bullying suggests use of treats or force. When did this happen? Let me guess, you verified it.

If I remember correctly you said "half" the lifers, and of course they're brainwashed. I disagree with that as well

[Touchdown]

47. That's all you got?

Your finished. When you realize that, I really can't help you with.

It is against the rules. Read the rules. I'm not your monkey. You know what you you think, and what you've done.

[USArmyParatrooper]

50. All I got? You are the one making accusations you can't back.

It is against the rules. Read the rules. I'm not your monkey. You know what you you think, and what you've done.

No, it is NOT against the rules to copy and paste what someone said to you and respond. Look up. I just did it and you have too during this conversation. Now copy and paste where I questioned your patriotism and respond. Oh, wait. You can't.

[Touchdown]

51. From the rules...

Do not "stalk" another member from one discussion thread to another. Do not follow someone into another thread to try to continue a disagreement you had elsewhere. Do not talk negatively about an individual in a thread where they are not participating. Do not post messages with the purpose of "calling out" another member or picking a fight with another member. Do not use your signature line to draw negative attention to another member of the board.

If you did that, you got away with it.

Again, you know what you do.

[USArmyParatrooper]

54. Nice try.

You didn't follow me anywhere. In fact, I came into your thread, not the other way around.

And since you're still going to try to hide behind rules that don't apply, let's try something else.

I do not at all remember questioning your patriotism. But if I did I am asking you publically to show me so I can apologize. Now will you show me?

[L0oniX]

44. Why are you talking with ignored?

:hi:

[Touchdown]

48. Is that how to take care of it?

:rofl:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

36. That massive pwnage you delivered pleases me.

:thumbsup:

[cornermouse]

21. If she's like most mothers, your mother was terrified

she'd never see you alive again and desperately looked around for a talisman. That's all the support the troops sticker is; a talisman.

My cousin, son of a career military man (uncle is a dedicated conservative with an extreme dislike of Obama apparently because he periodically sends me whatever neo-con spam that is currently circulating), joined only because his wife was pregnant and he was unable to find a job. If he could have found a job here, he would never have signed up. Touchdown has a more accurate assessment about why people join.

[USArmyParatrooper]

24. Good to see you know my mother's reason for the sticker.

You must know her really well. What's her name?

Touchdown spent some time in and, while I completely disagree with him I respect his opinion (most of it, anyway).

But but after a combined 13 years in two different branches, your one anecdote about your uncle is meaningless to me.

[Touchdown]

26. And there that one is as well.

FROM MY OP... Another trouble I see, which is where I get my amazement at times, is that many of my fellow veterans seem to fall for the worship and misinterpret that as actual support. Rest assured, those car magnets are made in China and carry a steady profit for the company that sells them... and none of that profit any soldier or vet will ever see. Maybe because I wasn't pumped up with buzzwords enough to be brainwashed of how proud I should be of myself, but I also find it crass to use one's active duty or veteran's status as any sort of claim of authority in... really anything. "Well this is how a car should be waxed. I served my country and sacrificed myself for YOU, so I know what I'm talking about. There is no debate! You didn't serve. You don't know how to wax a car!"

And you... Touchdown spent some time in and, while I completely disagree with him I respect his opinion (most of it, anyway).

But but after a combined 13 years in two different branches, your one anecdote about your uncle is meaningless to me.

:rofl:

Hint, USAP... She's a mother herself. You and I have different emotions merely being their sons. I don't have one of my own, so I can't judge how mothers(or fathers in my case) cope.

[USArmyParatrooper]

32. You can reword support or appriciation to be "worship"

but simply using a dysphemism doesn't change the meaning. Who gets the money from the ribbon is no more relevant than who gets the money when you buy pens, pickets and poster board to go to a rally or protest.

I have no idea who you're addressing with your hypothetical veteran who thinks his military service makes him an expert on everything, but it certainly isn't me.

What does her being a mother have to do with what you quoted from me?

[Touchdown]

35. You really don't get it.

You used the same rhetorical dismissal crap on that poster above that was the central theme of my paragraph. You used your military service as a debate trump card. It's disingenuous, faulty and a cheap shot. That hypothetical veteran is you... active duty soldier.

Mothers have a different perspective than their sons do. Why am I even explaining this?

[USArmyParatrooper]

38. No, it's not the same at all

Your example was a veteran who thinks his service makes him knowledgeable about car waxing.

I made the case that my opinion is based on my anecdotal exerience with 13 years in and knowing thousands of Soldiers and Marines isn't going to be swayed by why her uncle joined.

So you claim that her simply being a mother means she knows why my mother has the sticker on her car? Really?

[Touchdown]

49. Metaphors. They're useful.

Try and see how they work. "Car wax" is a... wait for it... metaphor. You are the only poster in this thread that took the sentence literally.

[cornermouse]

27. 1. I know because I'm a mother who loves her kids

and went to a lot of work and worry to make sure they survived to adulthood as I expect your mother did, hence all the crying she did when you left.
2. My uncle retired from the military. I am pretty sure he had at least 30 years of service in the military. Certainly I saw him not all the frequently, usually with several years in between visits.

[USArmyParatrooper]

34. You're not following.

Obviously she was crying out of worry. But I fail to see how simply bring a mother qualifies you to say why she has a support the troops ribbon on her car.

That's fine that your uncle served 30+ years. But his reason for joining is still a single anecdote. That's why it's meaningless as an example to claim why most people join the military.

[cornermouse]

40. You were using 13 years of experience as a club.

I simply pointed out my father's only brother has considerably more than you.

After looking at this, I suggest you call your mother to apologize for all the fear, anger, and stress you put her though and then tell her you love her sometime today.

[USArmyParatrooper]

43. This is getting ridiculous

You were using your uncle's reason for joining as 'proof' of why most people join. I asserted that one man doesn't negate my experience with the countless Soldiers and Marines I've worked with over many years.

I owe my mother an apology for what? When did I make her angry? Does everyone in the military owe their mother an apology or just me?

[LanternWaste]

52. I've seen little evidence to support either contention.

I imagine everyone here is basing their opinions on little more than anecdotes and biases, as I've seen little to no evidence to support either contention.

[Hekate]

57. In my experience, most people want to believe their jobs have meaning, especially soldiers.

I agree with this post of yours, USAP.

Hekate

[G_j]

20. K&R!

[Eyerish]

22. K&R

[mikita]

28. k&r !

[G_j]

29. kick

[Autumn]

30. K/R

and that is all.

[wuvuj]

41. Aside from being heroes...

...vets have been duped into supporting predatory capitalism...the same kind that is throwing people out of their homes...and jobs in the US.

They probably aren't doing me too many favors....though they do support the goals of the top 2%...profits from cheap labor and resources around the globe.

Should they be looked up to and "supported"? Well...they are trained to kill aren't they?

I was hoping that this country learned something from Vietnam...but here I get to deal with the SOS of stupid wars for the declining years of my life...neato keen.

Basically a police state and perpetual war. Oh...I just want to go out and wave that flag so bad.....

[bherrera]

42. Touchdown, you are a great thinker

Please keep writing for your people, because they need to understand what you know.

[arbusto_baboso]

45. Gawd damn. I'm a vet from the same era (served 87-92 active duty)

And I absolutely agree with you on virtually every point.

Some of my motives were a tad different, but I came out thinking much the same way that you do.

[Touchdown]

53. Thanks, Brother!

:toast:

[DirkGently]

46. We tell so many selfish lies about war and military service, and forget the soldiers themselves.

Thank you for posting this thoughtful piece.

Well done.

[GoldenOldie]

55. Served during the 1980's?

Having lived through WWII, Korea, Vietnam and now ME wars, and having family and friends who fought and died in each one of these wars, and having living and working beside the veterans of both the battlefields and the support functions which were deployed in England, France, Spain, etc., I heard both sides of their adventures/service. I know those who bear the mental and physical scars don't have to prove to anyone the reasons why they were drafted or why they volunteered. Yes many of these young volunteers have chosen to enlist for college funds, lack of employment opportunities, family problems, adventure....and yes, there are many who actually do have a naive sense of patriotic duty and compassion for others. I do have a big problem with those that have chosen to volunteer during peace time or those that have been drafted or volunteered and then never deployed from the US or served in Peace-time foreign countries such as Germany, England, France, Spain, etc., etc., and which allowed them peaceful family adventures, travel and then demeaning those who volunteer and serve in bloody combat zones.

I marched against the war in Iraq and spent hours/days trying to dissuade my first-born grandson from enlisting. Yes he not only enlisted for college funds, but he had that naive patriotic fervor that told him he should. I totally failed and he is now a veteran of 1-deployment in Iraq and is now serving in Afghanistan. As with the majority of these soldiers, he returned from Iraq with PTSD and within 1-year he was deployed to Afghanistan and soon after watched his best buddy die. No way in hell will I tell him nor any other soldier/veteran that they were fools. I can only let him know how much he is loved.

[Touchdown]

56. If I came across as insensitive or or calloused

towards those who were forced into war or have been in battles, that was certainly not my intention. I can only speak from own personal experience, and tried to not imply that it is entirely universal. My main point is that the propaganda and over reach of the hero worship by certain members of society (namely the right wing, who uses it as a campaign tactic, and thus cheapening the entire meaning of serving). I certainly didn't mean to imply that anyone who signs up are fools.

I apologize for not being clear on that. It was hard to choose my words in this. I'll be more accurate next time.:hi: