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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 04:48 PM
Original message
Not Poor Enough
“______!”

That was another silent scream. I do that a lot lately.

Ok. Sit back. Take a deep breath----

I. You Are Not Poor Enough if You Own a Car

I wish I could show you the print edition of today’s Fort Worth Star Telegram. At the top of the opinion page is a piece reprinted from the Austin American Statesman. Written by Ken Herman, it is called “American hardship comes with modern conveniences.” The author quotes a Heritage Society paper written in 2007, by Robert Rector, who insists that the poor in America are not poor enough.

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2007/08/how-poor-are-americas-poor-examining-the-plague-of-poverty-in-america

Most of America's "poor" live in material conditions that would be judged as comfortable or well-off just a few generations ago


Rector says you are not poor enough if you own a car. Rector would like us to imagine that the poor own flashy vehicles—low riders or Cadillacs with shiny hubcaps---and that they like to joy ride around town during their endless free time. I wonder if Rector has ever stopped to consider how he would get to work if he did not have a car and if his city did not have public transportation? If you glance down the page of the print edition of the Fort Worth paper, you will read that Richland Hills, a suburb of the city wants to get rid of its buses, which allow the poor to get to work and seniors (who are disproportionately poor) to get to their doctors’ appointments.

Owning a car is not a privilege. It is a burden for many lower income Americans. Their vehicles are old. Their tires are bald. They can barely afford to pay for gas, much less maintain their cars and keep up their insurance payments. Poor workers in America’s suburbs and rural areas would jump at the chance to give up their clunkers, if their communities had public transportation.

II. The Only Good Welfare Queen is One Dead of Heat Stroke

Rector is alarmed at the number of poor people who have air conditioning. In his “good old days”---1970, the height of the Nixon administration---36% of Americans had AC. Now, he complains, 80% of the poor are able to cool their sweat boxes when temperatures reach 105, as they may do for weeks at a time in the South.

Air conditioning is the reason why the redder than red southern states have become so prosperous in recent years. There would be no Toyota plants in Alabama if employees had to endure southern summers in our modern, cheaply built, poorly ventilated apartments. High tech industries would not be relocating to Austin if they had to survive an Austin summer---the way I used to survive Austin summers as a child---with nothing more than a fan and an open window. You can not leave your door or windows open any more, unless you live in a gated community. You will get robbed or murdered.

Old folks are particularly prone to heat related illness. Old folks are also more likely than the rest of us to be poor---

Is that how the Heritage Society plans to solve our Social Security crisis? Let all the old folks die from the heat?

III. Not Sick Enough

Only an idiot could write:

There is little or no evidence of poverty-induced malnutrition in the United States.


Look at the working poor in America. Many of them are overweight, suffering from diabetes and hypertension, because the cheapest food is greasy and salty, designed to ease hunger pains but poor in nutrition. With mom working two jobs, she does not have time to prepare cheap, healthy meals from scratch. That microwave that Rector calls a luxury? She needs it because she may not have more than 10 minutes to get supper ready for the kids once she gets home. And the television that Rector says the poor do not deserve? That’s her baby sitter. Have you ever tried to pay for child care when you make minimum wage? A color TV is much cheaper.

Only a heartless bastard could boast

Some 13 percent had a family member who needed to go to a doctor or hospital at some point in the prior year but did not go.


As if the 87 percent who did not have to forgo necessary medical care makes it all right. There is a lot that Rector glosses over with that statistic. He does not tell his readers that among those who can not get care are:

Sally, 42 whose breast mass has just metastasized to her bones, because she could not afford a biopsy.

Bill, 45 whose children are now orphaned, because he could not afford to get his chest pain treated before the heart attack killed him.

Henry, 23 the schizophrenic whose family is dead, because the voices in his head told him to kill them. Henry’s community does not have any mental health services for the poor. Now, his state’s criminal justice system will take care of his mental health related expenses.

Maria, 10 days, whose grandparents are trying to scrape together the money to bury her. Maria was born prematurely to a mother who could not get OB care because she had no transportation to take her to the nearest clinic, 30 miles away. Maria's mother, Selena, is in the ICU now. In two more weeks, she will need her own funeral plot. Complications of unsuspected, untreated pregnancy induced hypertension caused her to suffer seizures and then a stroke shortly after she signed in at the local hospital emergency room. The wait that night to see a doctor was ten hours. That's because the other 87 percent were not willing to die like dogs in the street in order to prove to Rector and the Heritage Society that poverty is a killer.

Heritage assholes, this fuck you is from the kids whose only decent meals are those provided at their schools. They used to get lunches during summer break at a local park, but nearby residents objected to the sight of all those poor, mostly minority children eating. This fuck you is from the disabled elderly whose utilities were cut off. Their state had allocated funds to help them pay their electricty and water, but their governor decided to use the money for something else, something more important. No one would dare to treat the poor so badly, if not for the corporate shills standing on the street corners proclaiming that the poor in this country are not poor enough!

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monmouth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 04:51 PM
Response to Original message
1. Good heavens, even the Joads had a truck....n/t
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butterfly77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
2. These are the rules they make for us..
Edited on Sun Oct-10-10 04:59 PM by butterfly77
to try to keep people in poverty. We need to make rules for them concerning their pensions,perks and pay raises..

They have gotten so used to make and stealing all of our money that they think its the norm while they tell us they need to cut everything that we the taxpayers put in

We aren't suppose to use OUR MONEY for us but it is fine as long as they want space travel and other bullshit that is suppose to be good for us.

They decide what to do with OUR MONEY but we have no say in the matter when it goes to dictators overseas and corrupt politicians here and there...Karzai in afghanistan running around with his little cape and his brother stealing all of OUR MONEY..
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dixiegrrrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-10 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #2
97. The nice thing about being poor is the Feds do not get tax money from me.
Ok, every 3 months I do fill up the car.
But I think that is it.
Don't "earn" enough to file taxes.

Local community gets the food taxes. Comes to about 25.00 a month.

Feels kinda good, in a pathetic way. Guess some Republican is going to have to make up for what I don't pay out.
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Overseas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 05:00 PM
Response to Original message
3. K&R. Very well said. //nt
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 05:01 PM
Response to Original message
4. Hhhmm
Do you think they'd allow a car if it was a person's "house" as well?? K&R, thanks.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #4
21. Of course not, mary. They would rather "house" us in jail.
Much more profit that way, donchaknow....

I have a question... why isn't there a spitting emoticon? :)
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #21
31. good question!
maybe it'd be used too much... :)
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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
5. Let me add another fuck you for good measure.
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
6.  But OTOH, you can NEVER be too rich to get a tax break!
Edited on Sun Oct-10-10 05:27 PM by saracat
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monmouth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Or too thin....Sorry, couldn't resist...n/t
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #7
8.  Almost added that myself! LOL. Thanx, Babe Paley! Heh!
U doubtedly they are thin because they are virtuous and more worthy!:sarcasm:
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sulphurdunn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 05:45 PM
Response to Original message
9. In the parable of the Ant and the Grasshopper
Edited on Sun Oct-10-10 05:54 PM by sulphurdunn
(attributed to Aesop)the deserving ant slaves away all summer storing food for the winter while the undeserving grasshopper dances and plays his fiddle. When winter comes the grasshopper comes begging. The deserving ant turns him away with a righteous lecture on the virtues of hard word and frugality. The grasshopper starves.

In the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man (attributed to Jesus) the rich man, unlike the ant, at least permits Lazarus to come in from the weather and eat the crumbs that fall from his table without making any moral judgment about him. For this, the rich man is sent to hell.

Somewhere left of these stories lies American liberalism, which doesn't believe anyone should suffer privation in life or go to hell in death whether deserving or not.
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. "Hell" is a dualistic bogeyman designed to solidify the power of the ruling class.
Edited on Sun Oct-10-10 06:59 PM by McCamy Taylor
If "hell" actually exists, it is a wealthy man or woman crowing that he has just made his subsistence wage employees accept a pay cut so that he can accumulate more money in the bank that will never spent in order to fill the soulless void within himself that can never be filled.
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zehnkatzen Donating Member (769 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. That is something that I haven't been able to shake from my consciousness for a long time.
I've tried not to ... after all I was born and brought up to believe that Christians were the good people, but I can no longer shake the impression that Christianity ... at least as practiced by Americans in general these days ... is a way to keep the prole deprived and tractable so that they will do what they are told.

Who was it that said "God must love the poor ... he made so many of them!"?
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CoffeeCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #22
44. The bloodthirsty...
Edited on Sun Oct-10-10 10:42 PM by CoffeeCat
...neoncon corporatists made damn sure that they worked on the Christian Right--big time--in the 1980's.
Starting with the whole "family values" crap, these bastards convinced church-going folk and little old
ladies with their Bibles that the Republican party cornered the market on values and morals. And well, the
rest of us are a bunch of dirty, hippie, atheist, goth freaks who want to eat babies for breakfast.

Slowly, the neocons convinced the Christian Right that they must be for war. Why yes! War is the Christian
thing to do. The right thing to do! They also convinced them--through Rush Limbaugh and other talk-show
blowhards--that corporate deregulation is moral, and so is giving up our civil rights and privacy through
the Patriot Act. Speak out against those things and you must be a horrible, filthy lefty!!

And the biggest lie they pulled on the Christians, was convincing them that they should be pro-torture. Yes, yes, never
mind that Jesus was tortured and that the Romans were corrupt bastards and that torture is illegal, cruel, evil,
reprehensible and often carried out by those who make Satan look like a Girl Scout. The Christian Right couldn't
get enough of torture, because, by God--Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity said it was the right
thing to do.

The sickest, most sociopathic element of our society commandeered the Christians. And you have to wonder what
will happen when these people realize that they have been propping up one of the most Fascist, evil, depraved
political agendas ever to exist on this planet?

The mask is slipping...won't be long now.

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Delphinus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-10 06:00 AM
Response to Reply #44
58. Boy, Coffeecat,
I sure hope that mask falls down fully soon - right now, as a matter of fact. Yes, I know the fallout from people awakening to the lies they've been told will be hard, but won't it feel like we have a chance ... finally?
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LittleGirl Donating Member (377 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-10 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #44
65. that post deserves it's own rating!
high 5 to you.
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MedicalAdmin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-10 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #44
69. That's simple. They'll do nothing.
" And you have to wonder what
will happen when these people realize that they have been propping up one of the most Fascist, evil, depraved ..."

They will do nothing. The only that the evangelical and wasp churchgoers want is "their country back"'and what they mean by that is a return to slavery. The GOP is accomplishing that goal in spades.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-10 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #44
83. Wish I could kick and rec your post.
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sulphurdunn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #14
32. Yes,
Hell would be something like that. Whenever I have visited hell it has been in response to a negative mental state I have inflicted upon myself and then could not escape for what seemed like forever.
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quakerboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. So what you are suggesting,
If I read correctly, is that the poor in the US are lazy and undeserving of life?
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sulphurdunn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #15
30. What I am saying is that
there are many reasons why there are poor people, just as there are many reasons for why suffering exists. None of those reasons justify failing to alleviate either.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #9
23. I was with you right up until the last sentence.
In your dreams.
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sulphurdunn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. I was merely saying that
should there be a hereafter, no one should suffer there either.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #25
33. "Somewhere left of these stories lies American liberalism, which doesn't believe anyone should suffe
Like I said, in your dreams.
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Raoul Donating Member (666 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-10 04:58 AM
Response to Reply #33
57. Yeah, that's it
assholes. Instead of fighting the greedy motherfuckers who write those articles of hatred against the poor, just fight among yourselves regarding certain philosophical nuances. That always works and is why we'll never solve anything in this country.
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sulphurdunn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-10 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #57
66. Yea!
Let's rise up an kill 'em all in the name of freedom. All the rich people. They deserve it. Make 'em suffer. Fuck 'em!

If there is some moral difference between you, the rich man and the ant, I don't hear it. Your rant against the oppression of the rich is akin to their rant about why you deserve to be oppressed.
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Wednesdays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-10 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #66
85. You seem to be VERY concerned about the welfare of rich people
I wonder why that is... :shrug:
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sulphurdunn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-10 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #85
87. It's simple.
Fear, hatred, and greed make people stupid. The rich (for the most part) hate and fear the poor. They are also greedy. Hence, they are stupid. You can neither convert nor defeat your enemies by being stupider than they are. By the way, I have some friends who are rich. They are stupid, but I still care about their welfare. I have friends who are poor, most of them suffer from the same stupidity as the rich ones. I care for their welfare too. I'm unwilling to harm any of my friends, because I'm as stupid as they are. That's just the way it is.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-10 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #57
80. I know... we shouldn't rock the boat by reminding those who ignore us that we are STILL hungry, we
are STILL homeless, we are STILL sick and uncared for.

We should suffer in silence, so as not to disturb your "peace".

I'm sure our turn will eventually come, right?

:puke:
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sulphurdunn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-10 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #80
90. If the plight of the poor
is of such concern then you feed them, clothe them and care for them. The people who run this country won't do it, and you can't do anything to them. So do something for your neighbors. That's the organizational principle of all revolutions.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-10 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #90
91. Your assumptiions are truly amazing... and heartless.
Welcome to the "we can out do the RW if we try hard enough" crowd.
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sulphurdunn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-10 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #91
92. Well, I'm open to suggestions.
If the poor don't look out for each others' welfare... what should they do instead? You may rest assured that the rich lookout for each others' welfare and don't consider it heartless. They don't even consider it heartless to inflict suffering on others to do it. So, you are probably a better person than many rich people, but that has nothing to do with price of bread.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-10 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #92
93. If you are at all familiar with history, then you know that poor people are continually beat down
unless one of two things happen:

1. More affluent people demand that poor people be accorded decent lives.

2. Eventually it gets bad enough that there is an ugly armed revolution.

I'm guessing you are hoping for #2 as an entertaining diversion.
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sulphurdunn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-10 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #93
94. Number 2?
Please read my earlier posts on this topic.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-10 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #94
95. I've read all the garbage I need to read for one day, but thank you anyway.
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sulphurdunn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-10 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #95
98. It's obvious that at some time
someone taught you (more or less) how to read. It's also obvious that no one has ever taught you how to think or how to disagree without being disagreeable and that you have failed to teach these things to yourself. Have a nice day. ;-)
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heidler1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-10 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #9
50. Grasshoppers all die in the winter by design.
Spring grasshoppers used as fish bait are all very small in the spring because they must hatch from eggs laid the year before. The whole story is unaplickable. If the objective is to give an example of getting by on the other guys sweat, the best example would be the rich and greedy human.
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Heidi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-10 06:54 AM
Response to Reply #9
61. I don't believe _anyone_, for _any_ reason, deserves to starve or die a painful death.
"Deserving" is a value judgment.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-10 07:02 AM
Response to Reply #9
63. And American conservatism believes
wealth = virtue. They believe, if you are born wealthy enough you are a fine person.
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bread_and_roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
10. "Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?"
another Rec here
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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
11. ...
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Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 06:03 PM
Response to Original message
12. K&R. Outstanding post. n/t
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
13. Perhaps someone can discover how Herman and Rectum..er ...Rector


get around. Gas-guzzling SUV's? Private Limos?

And what kind of houses do they live in? Do they have air conditioning, health care, cable or satellite TV?

If they would only give up these things to give more to the poor, like Jesus told the rich young man to do, they would be practicing the frugality and discipline they preach. Otherwise, they're just conservative narcissists blathering on with more of their tired but legendary hypocrisy.

Anyone got any clue as to the scope of these self-righteous cretins' material possessions?









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jtuck004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
16. K&R and Thank You for Posting This. n/t
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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 07:31 PM
Response to Original message
17. The pure, cold lack of compassion is astonishing
Sadly, some men ARE islands...

Thanks, McCamy, for your excellent OP--eloquent and powerful. :thumbsup:
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zehnkatzen Donating Member (769 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #17
26. Appalling, yes, Surprising, no.
I've nursed a private little theory over the past few years that everyone who damns the poor or scoffs at them is really whistling past the graveyard.

They loudly declaim about how the poor somehow deserve their lot in life because they make bad choices they should have known better about to drown out the sheer terror of the sure knowledge that, but for the grace of God, chances, or just not losing a job, they'd be right down there with them.

But they CAN'T turn out like those irresponsible, deserving poor, because they have enough faith in God, or enough of a work ethic, or are pure-hearted American enough, or are virtuous enough, or cozy up to the rich and vote Republican every time.

The ranks of the down and out in America are just full of people who thought that being good and voting Republican would save them.
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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. I think you're right
It's both a vain attempt at self-innoculation or self-immunization and a distancing from the 'unclean' castes.
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CoffeeCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #26
46. People are ignoring the poor...
...because they are scared shitless that they will be defined as poor, soon.

I live in a nice suburb and I also have a friend who facilitates a seminar that helps people manage
money and get out of debt. When I taught the seminar, we had 10 participants. This time around,
there are 75 participants. This is a crisis.

And these are people driving up in their Lexus SUVs and BMWs--telling everyone how they are living
paycheck to paycheck and drowning in credit card debt.

These people are trying to get out. These are the minority few who have decided that the American
dream, sold to us by our "Just go shopping!" government--is bullshit. They want out and they want
help digging out faster.

There are so many out there who are so fricking screwed and they don't even realize it. I get down
sometimes when I hear the stories in these seminars--but really, it's the people who are paralyzed,
and who don't think it's a big deal to have 80k in income and 40k in credit card debt--that we should
be concerned about. They're about to get gobsmacked.

And I assure you--when those people are getting food from the food banks and swiping their food-stamp
cards--they'll be pulling those cards out of their Coach billfolds and driving home in their big, shiny
SUVs.

It's ridiculous to suggest that if people have nice things--that they do not warrant or deserve help. Our
government talked us into living like that and buying those things. Our government relaxed bank regulations
and helped the credit-card companies drive us into reckless choices and mounds of debt. And now...they
suggest because we've lived like that, that we don't deserve help?

They HATE us. They absolutely hate us. They set a trap for us, then profited from that trap--and now
they suggest that we don't need help because people with all of the "trappings" really don't need help.

It's mind blowing.

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zehnkatzen Donating Member (769 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 08:09 PM
Response to Original message
18. Well, the first problem is depending on Heritage for impartial opinion on anything.
Going to the Heritage Institution for clear-eyed analysis of anything in America is like going to the US Chamber of Commerce to help get political clout for small business.

But the lazy media of America depends on go-to sources without questioning them much, if they're percieved as center-right, so we get Heritage driving our national debate about being poor or working-poor, which boils down to "the only problem with the working-class in America is that the wage-slaves' chains are a little too long".

Sure, I have two cars, actually. So, I'm double-lucky. Of course, one is on her last legs and the other's thrown a rod (a 72 VW Beetle, very heartbreaking) and we don't have the money to get the VW's engine replaced, and only enough money to keep the other one limping down the road (it'll probably go any time now), but I guess the point is to have them, so me and mine live in incomparable luxury.

Or maybe, when you look at it in absolute terms, being poor in America is pretty cushy ... but when you look at it in relative terms, being poor in America is just about as miserable as it is anywhere else, even more so because there's so much wealth to go round in America and so few people hoarding it for themselves.

30 or 40 seconds of a CEO's salary would fix both my cars. 5 and a half minutes of that same income would replace them.
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iamjoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 08:09 PM
Response to Original message
19. Poverty Is Relative
Edited on Sun Oct-10-10 08:12 PM by iamjoy
When you compare how poor people in this country live compared to poor people in say, Africa or even India it is a little startling. Globally speaking, some one making $25,000 per year is in the top 10% of richest people in the world. But in this country, that's barely above the poverty level.

When you look back 100 - 150 years ago at families like the Rockefellers and Vanderbilts, today's poor people have comforts they didn't. Heck, King Edward VI may have been one of the richest man in 16th century England and there wasn't a darn thing they could do to save him from an early death. Nowadays, money can and does make a difference in providing comforts and maybe even saving our lives. Until about 150 - 200 years ago, the wealthy read by candlelight (and you get more light when you open your fridge door than from a candle).

I think over the course of time and in general, the standard of living has gotten increasingly better for people of all socio-economic classes - or at least those in developed nations.

It's the tone that I don't like. It's the idea that poverty in this country isn't a problem because the poor don't live like serfs did five hundred years ago. I mean, wow, poor people have running water? You mean they don't have to get it from a well?
:eyes:

In all seriousness, if you want to make the argument about how "good" poor people in this country have it, don't use it to try to justify tax breaks for the wealthy while screwing other Americans. Use it to make the argument as to why we should worry more about other countries and trying to help them.

some one making $250,000 per year is in the top 0.001% richest people in the world.
http://www.globalrichlist.com/

and some folks actually want to give them (the richest .001%) a tax break?
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zehnkatzen Donating Member (769 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. Exactly correct. You've nailed it. n/t
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #19
36. Oh yeah... poor people have it so "good" in the U.S. that we're dying like flies.
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riderinthestorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #19
45. I know right? A "few generations ago" nobody HAD cars
so trying to compare today's generation, to a "few generations ago" is absurd.

And poverty malnutrition is just as prevalent now as it ever was. To say that people NOW have enough healthy food (and shelter) in comparison to the "past" is also some damn ridiculous spin.

The health care argument alone in the OP is moot for many millions who have never considered themselves part of the "poor". Health care (access? insurance? ability to pay?) is one of THE biggest demarcation lines between the "haves" and the "have nots" (imho) that we can point to - especially much more predictive in this day and age than whether one owns a car!!!
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HughBeaumont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-10 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #19
48. The right ALWAYS pulls the Equivocation fallacy.
Squalor is squalor. We shouldn't pretend that dumpster diving, people living in cars and under bridges and other characteristics of abject poverty doesn't exist in this country.

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wickerwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-10 02:52 AM
Response to Reply #19
54. You can't compare poverty
in developing and developed countries and in rural and urban areas.

You can live off $1 a day in most parts of China because the government provides housing, good, low-cost public transport, universal healthcare and because you can buy a huge bowl of fried rice from a street vendor for $.20. Making $25,000/year in China would make you upper-middle class.

Also, in most developing countries people still live much closer to the land than they do in the US. Most families still have patches of land they can farm to supplement their diet or they can scavenge from the bush, whereas urban poor families in the US have few options outside of third-rate supermarkets and food banks.

So yeah, a poor family in Detroit might have a TV and a crappy car (and are obese and have diabetes) but their counterpart in Guangxi farms a little vegetable patch, eats four or five servings of fresh vegetables a day, bikes everywhere, has a cellphone, etc... Which family has a better standard of living? Arguably, it's the "developed" one that can't feed itself properly over the "developing" one that doesn't have a TV.
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malletgirl02 Donating Member (938 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-10 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #54
74. Great Post
I agree. When accessing poverty across the world you can't just look at salary, you have to look at cost of living.
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-10 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #54
79. great points
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-10 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #19
78. +1!!!
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Patchuli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 08:11 PM
Response to Original message
20. #69 This needs to be K&R and READ!
This class warfare could prove to be dangerous to those who are waging it.
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MedicalAdmin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 08:33 PM
Response to Original message
27. Poverty is slavery.
And the desire to keep or create slaves is sick and should be stamped out, either by human residential mental illness treatment, or, for the social darwinist among us, by the culling of the herd.

And the Heritage bastards should be at the front of the line.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #27
40. I completely agree with your subject line. Yet, so many will claim that is hyperbole.
Until they experience for themselves, that is.

"And the Heritage bastards should be at the front of the line."

They should all be required to live under a bridge for a few years. With no access to one penny of their wealth.
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zehnkatzen Donating Member (769 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. And, you're right ... it isn't. It's reality.
As long as you are worried about losing health care, as long as you're worried about losing your housing, as long as you can't be sure, without money, where your next meal is coming from, you are in thrall to the people who have the money and dictate the terms.

People have been using the term "wage-slave" for so long it's become banal. They think it a jaded comment on what they're in. It's worse than that ... as is everything is these days.
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Liberal_in_LA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 08:35 PM
Response to Original message
28. In Calif, the poor can have a car and collect benefits, but the car has to be worth a small amount
a few thousand dollars. Oh so I've heard.
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Mrsladyhawke Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-10 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #28
72. Yes they can, it's true
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droidamus2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 09:15 PM
Response to Original message
34. Come on
Of course you wouldn't want any of them uppity poor people driving and owning cars. They need to learn their place. If you are poor act like you're poor and suffer you losers. No cars, no air conditioning, hell your lucky we even let you have a roof over your head and food on your table. Of course you shouldn't have food stamps because nobody should get anything that they didn't get by sweating their asses off working for us rich people for a pitance. Remember us rich people really, really need that 3% tax cut that good old George Bush gave us or we won't create any more great jobs for you serf...uh I mean poor people. (Yes it's all sarcasm to I really need to paint the picture?)
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jotsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 09:27 PM
Response to Original message
35. It was Earnest Istook that I caught on Big Eddie's show recently.
That pompous bozo had the gall to suggest that banks were justified in hording their money because they were afraid of how much damage Obama administration policy would do and how cumbersome the new financial regulations being imposed was making them...squeamish. All I heard was if the elite are going to be required to follow rules, well then no one should expect them to play. And they suggest the problem at the modest end of the economic ladder is a sense of entitlement? Yoish.

Rec'd.
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jotsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-10 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #35
49. Oops.
Too late to rec. Hope it's the thought that counts.
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blogslut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 09:34 PM
Response to Original message
37. Ahh, yes. Ye Olde Assets Questioneering
I remember those well from my time in the Texas Welfare system. The theory being that if I owned a car, then I should sell it before I dare beg the state for financial assistance.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. And of course looking in the closets and under the beds for the man hiding out.
Then, decades later, wondering why so many poor families didn't have fathers in the home. :crazy:
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blogslut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. I also enjoyed
...having to provide proof that my child was mine every six months. Proving she lived with me I could understand but FFS, why keep making me prove that the same baby came out of the same baby tunnel month after month?
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. You have to admit, it was a damned good way to burn up money so they wouldn't have to actually
give you a decent amount with which to support your daughter, and you also have to admit, all that paper shuffling kept them in jobs, right?

The insanity boggles.... :nuke:

I'm sorry you went through that. I hope you and daughter are doing well now.
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 09:44 PM
Response to Original message
38. K&R
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lutherj Donating Member (788 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 11:16 PM
Response to Original message
47. After the Nazis lost we made the SS officers clean up the death camps.
I say we make the lazy ass rich in this country rebuild by hand the rust belt and clean up the toxic waste sites. Make them clean up the beaches along the gulf coast. Make them mow the lawns in front of the foreclosed houses. Pay them minimum wage and make them work for a living.
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mntleo2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-10 01:42 AM
Response to Original message
51. My Somalian friend Margaret says US poverty is worse
...this is a woman who endured endless war, the death of her entire family, refugee camps where she was continually raped and beaten, and then when she got to America and got her low paying crappy job, then endured living on the streets for 2 years. yet there is no prouder American ~ not because she is still poor and it was worse than she had, but because she "gets' to be who she is and wants to be as a woman and American.

She said that in Somalia, when there was no place to live, she went into the forest where there were indigenous people who'd lived there for literally eons and they taught her how to survive. Try doing that here and not only have we chased away the indigenous people, if we tried to live in the forest, we would be arrested for trespassing since it either belongs to the government or privately owned.

She said in Somalia if you wanted to cook a meal, you built a fire in a fire pit and cooked it communally where all the people sat and ate together and shared their food. Try doing that here and you will be arrested for arsonm being a terrorist for consorting with "questionable people or something like that

She said that it is almost required to have a car here to get around since our public transportation sucks to get to work, and there isn't any in rural areas at all, so you HAVE to have that expensive car since it is 50 miles to work if you have a job.

She said our living arrangements insist on having electricity and fuel of some sort in order to cook, stay warm, and do the family work needed, our homes are not designed to be able to work without light,fireplaces are not built to cook in and are a waste of energy.

Since her culture in Somalia is used to nomads and people who do not have a home, they are not considered "poor" just because they don't have a house to live in and there are acceptable ways to survive without them. Not so here.

Just a few reasons why poverty in America is harder than freaking Somalia for GAWD's sake.

Cat in Seattle <--- Margaret is my hero and in so many ways her wisdom is priceless and an addition to this country.
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renate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-10 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #51
77. wow. Margaret sounds beyond amazing
I'm just astounded by the magnitude of her loss and by her strength... and by her compassion. In her place I'd be incredibly envious of anybody, rich or poor, who hadn't been through war and loss. How can she not look at Americans, even poor Americans, and not think "Pffft! You think you've got it bad? You have no idea" but "yes, our culture in Somalia is more supportive, it's harder to be poor here." Everything about what you wrote impresses me--her wisdom and her endurance and her compassion. What an amazing woman.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-10 02:29 AM
Response to Original message
52. seniors are not disproportionately poor
unless you have another source than the US census that says so, it is quite the other way around

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/cpstables/032010/pov/new02_000.htm


percent of poverty * all *** under *** 18 to ** 65+ ** 75+
level income ***** people ** age 18 *** 64

below 50% ********** 5% ***** 8.7% ***** 3.8% * 1.8% * 2.2%
below 100% ********* 12.5% ** 20.1% *** 10% *** 5.4% * 6.2%
below 150% ********* 21.1% ** 31.3% *** 17.4 ** 13.0% * 15.1%
below 200% ********* 30% **** 41.7% *** 25.2% * 24.3% * 28.4%


Only at 200% of poverty does the percent of elderly rise above the percent of non-elderly. At lower incomes, of less than 150% of the poverty line, the percent of elderly at that income is less than the percent of non-elderly.

Instead, it is children under age 18 who are dispropotionately poor.
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-10 02:46 AM
Response to Reply #52
53. Depends upon what measures you use for poverty.
Edited on Mon Oct-11-10 02:48 AM by McCamy Taylor
http://www.dailyfinance.com/story/twice-as-many-elderly-in-poverty-new-formula-new-policy-hope/19152740/

Poverty among the elderly is now nearly twice the normal rate. Traditionally, 10 percent of Americans over age 65 live below the poverty line, but the National Academy of Science has developed a new formula it hopes will replace the current nor, which has been in use for around 50 years -- and the results are astounding. This emerging approach to gauging the amount of older people living in poverty is beginning to gain clout with the White House.
The formula developed by the NAS estimates that 18.6 percent of Americans over 65 live below the poverty line: that's 6.8 million people. The traditional government formula, created in 1955, puts the elderly poverty rate at 9.7 percent (3.6 million people). The NAS claims that its methodology accounts for increases in the cost of medical treatment and other factors that the incumbent formula does not. Rather, the mid-century method is based on an "emergency food diet" that doesn't necessarily reflect the realities of modern economic life. Academics and members of both major political policies agree that change is necessary.




See full article from DailyFinance: http://srph.it/aVnBdA
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-10 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #53
68. neither of those articles really explain the methodology
and I am not sure I buy it. I also do not like how it is being pushed by AARP.

This article http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32690294/ns/business-us_business/

says "With the potential to add more older Americans to the ranks of the poor, the numbers may underscore a need for continued — if not expanded — old-age benefits as a government safety net."

As I have said before, I think policy already tilts too far in advantage of the elderly. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=5583476#5592857

It also says this "Nor does the current formula consider noncash aid when calculating income, despite the recent expansion of food stamps and tax credits in the federal economic stimulus and other government programs."

So it mentions "noncash aid" and then mentions food stamps and tax credits, but not medicare.

So I do not see any compelling reason to believe this new measure even if advocates (for the elderly) are pushing for it. To some degree it says that "the elderly are poor in greater percentages" after anti-poverty programs that help children are taken into account.
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-10 04:37 AM
Response to Original message
55. kick and recommend!!
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-10 04:54 AM
Response to Original message
56. The Rich are pining for the 1800's. .
Workhouses and debtor's prisons, child labor..

And they are well on their way to killing that great Union accomplishment, The Weekend.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-10 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #56
82. +1000!!!
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The Uncola Donating Member (519 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-10 06:45 AM
Response to Original message
59. Yep...
.. been hearing the "how great" our Nations poor have it meme, out of the Regressives for a very long time. We all know that dog don't hunt.
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-10 06:52 AM
Response to Original message
60. Recommended. nt
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-10 06:57 AM
Response to Original message
62. Limbaugh has been telling
us how America's poor have it 'too good' for years. And I have heard "conservatives" say that you must keep America's poor hungry, "So they will work."

This is the opposition, folks. These are truly bad people.
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barbtries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-10 07:21 AM
Response to Original message
64. great rant
how dare anyone be poor. the bastards. ___________________!
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n2doc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-10 09:44 AM
Response to Original message
67. They won't be happy until we are all digging for scraps in garbage piles


(and look at that luxury those kids have- they have a bike! No need to help, then)
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DirkGently Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-10 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
70. The "cell phone" thing gets me. Poor people can't afford land lines, but a "fancy" cell is damning?
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Mrsladyhawke Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-10 09:57 AM
Response to Original message
71. He doesn't know what he's talking about
I have to wash clothes this week in the kitchen sink because I don't have enough quarters for the laundry room of the apartment complex that we live in because the apartment isn't equipped with the hookups, but I'm not poor because I own a color TV which by the way was handed down by my in laws and the color is fading? Ok, tell that next time I'm starving because we don't have enough food and I can only feed the kids. (Which has happened more than twice.)
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renate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-10 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #71
89. welcome to DU
You must be exhausted--it takes so much work to save just a few bucks, doesn't it? :(
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Whoa_Nelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-10 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
73. You really should send this a LTTE or OpEd to
Fort Worth Star Telegram and the Austin American Statesman, along with your citations to back what we already know as fact.

This is a great piece. Sad, true, and well-written. Thank you for posting this.
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-10 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
75. FFS...they dug up THAT moldy-assed talking point??
I remember back in the late 80s some clowns saying you were not poor if you even owned a TV
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mstinamotorcity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-10 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
76. Rich are not rich enough
They have gotten massive salaries and bonuses. Depleted the country of 24% of its wealth. Have just about crippled the middle class. Saw their incomes grow at a rate of 281%. Have numerous accounts in that little building in the Cayman Islands.Live in mansions. Or own multiple homes and can't remember how many they have. Hey John McCain was it 3,5,or 7 we really still aren't sure of the number. Spend millions of dollars in advertising to tell you how they (BP)" will "Never leave until the oil in the gulf is cleaned up. Or think that you are so desperate that you will except 3 million dollars for the life of your loved one after they have blown up in a gas filled mine ( Blankenship).Have taken peoples retirements and 401k's and homes and gambled with them (Wall Street) and lost everything. Then needed the same people to help cover their ass.manipulated frightened citizens and organized hate groups to be bused in by the hundreds at rallies against everything that would bring relief to the people of our country (Koch Brothers,Dick Armey,and Karl Rove). I think thats enough I can stomach no more.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-10 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
81. What about those folks who LIVE in their car??????????!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-10 01:40 PM
Response to Original message
84. I hope you submit this as a guest essay response to the Star Telegram (sans "profane," of course)
That idiotic crap and failed logic needs to be countered.

Obviously, the nature of poverty has changed over the course of the 20th century. Yeah, fuck the Heritage Foundation. Life expectancy has dropped from fifth to 49th in the U.S. over the past 60 years, fuckwads.
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ceile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-10 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
86. K&R!
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Mimosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-10 03:43 PM
Response to Original message
88. K&R n/t
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KamaAina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-11-10 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
96. Our feline overlords agree with you
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