Nashville mayor to use 10 million of public funds to renovate KIPP charter school.

[madfloridian]

One would think public schools were not in need of such things. This is surprising.

From the Schools Matter blog:

Nashville Mayor Karl Dean to Use $10 Million of Public Education Funds to Renovate KIPP, Inc. School

Karl Dean has just shown a level of arrogance and disregard for the responsibilities of his office that has to impress even Prince Bloomberg. Dean has decided to take 10% of the amount he has set aside for public school renovation during his whole term to renovate a single Metro property that is leased by the total compliance segregated charter chain, KIPP, Inc.

It's not exactly as if KIPP does not have the money to do their own renovation, with hundreds of millions in donations from every vulture philanthropy fund and every corporate foundation and every big time philanthrocapitalist. The voters of Nashville already recognize this as the grossest form of corporate welfare that has come their way in a long time.

Meanwhile, legitimately-public schools have leaking roofs and children eating lunch in the hallways.

More from The Tennessean:

Mayor Karl Dean puts KIPP charter ahead of other schools for repairs

It took ripping away the red tape,a hefty sum of money and a powerful politician, but this year the decaying, partially vacant school building leased by KIPP Academy is getting a renovation. Highland Heights, the historic East Nashville building that has housed KIPP Academy since 2005, is budgeted to get a $10 million upgrade courtesy of a high-profile champion: Mayor Karl Dean. Dean asked the school district to turn the building over to the city, allowing him to fund upgrades.

KIPP's special treatment is irritating some supporters of traditional public schools who argue that other aging buildings, such as Hume-Fogg High School, have been waiting in line for years for money to modernize.

But Dean says he would like to expand capital support for successful charters, and he hopes KIPP's upgraded building will benefit the gentrifying community and send a message nationally that Nashville is a city willing to aid charter schools with buildings. He joins a small movement of other cities and states trying harder to help charters find a home.

"Until recent years, I don't think we were supportive enough of public charter schools," Dean said. "And I think going forward we're going to have to work with the Board of Education to figure out how we're going to meet the property need and capital needs of public charter schools, too."

Charter schools are funded with taxpayer money but run by independent boards and private management companies. It's a blend of public money going to private sources, and many of us question the wisdom.

[ClarkUSA]

1. Um, charter schools ARE public schools, thus they get public funding.

Charter schools are nonsectarian public schools of choice that operate with freedom from many of the regulations that apply to traditional public schools. The "charter" establishing each such school is a performance contract detailing the school's mission, program, goals, students served, methods of assessment, and ways to measure success. The length of time for which charters are granted varies, but most are granted for 3-5 years. At the end of the term, the entity granting the charter may renew the school's contract. Charter schools are accountable to their sponsor-- usually a state or local school board-- to produce positive academic results and adhere to the charter contract. The basic concept of charter schools is that they exercise increased autonomy in return for this accountability. They are accountable for both academic results and fiscal practices to several groups: the sponsor that grants them, the parents who choose them, and the public that funds them.

For the legal definition of a charter school in a particular state, consult that state's charter school law through our State Profiles area:
http://www.uscharterschools.org/pub/uscs_docs/o/index.htm

[Dragonfli]

4. Does that mean they must admit all students?

Since they are publicly funded who gets the building and learning materials after they are done experimenting?

Good news that the schools are owned by the public that pays the bills, must take all students, and thank god they use only fully trained union teachers, for a while it looked just like a scam instead of public schools that use names instead of numbers on the front.

I was beginning to worry about what appeared to be theft for profit.

[ClarkUSA]

9. Go ask them yourself. I'm sure they have guidelines just as other public schools do.

Go here and call them up in your state profile: http://www.uscharterschools.org/pub/uscs_docs/o/index.htm

I have a few of them in my very Democratic (no Republican has ever been elected mayor of this 200+ year old town) and our public school system is top-rated in our county. The teachers I know who are teaching in the public school system here are not against charter schools and neither am I.

[KamaAina]

16. Here's the principal of a highly touted charter in NYC on students with disabilities:

http://nymag.com/news/features/65614/index4.html

At Harlem Success, disability is a dirty word. “I’m not a big believer in special ed,” Fucaloro says. For many children who arrive with individualized education programs, or IEPs, he goes on, the real issues are “maturity and undoing what the parents allow the kids to do in the house — usually mama — and I reverse that right away.” When remediation falls short, according to sources in and around the network, families are counseled out. “Eva told us that the school is not a social-service agency,” says the Harlem Success teacher. “That was an actual quote.”

Is Michael Savage running a charter school in New York now? :wtf:

[webDude]

18. In Texas they don't have to take anyone they do not want! They dump their...

...problems on the public schools, who must take them, regardless. At least that is the actuality.

[Jakes Progress]

22. Don't you know about the guidelines

for the schools you favor? You seem to have no problem with them, but you do not know their guidelines or how they are evaluated or how they are funded? Sometimes gift horses have a high price.

[ClarkUSA]

25. Why should I? People asking me a question need to go find their own answers.

I gave them a link but I'm not obliged to be anyone's secretary.

And where did I ever say I "favor" them? Quote me.

[Jakes Progress]

69. So you don't mind inequality.

You don't "favor" it, but if that is what happens in your community schools you are "not against" it.

[ClarkUSA]

91. lol! Strawman Argument #2. When did I say that? Quote me.

"The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position."

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

Give it up. :rofl:

[Jakes Progress]

124. I'll walk you through it. It isn't hard, but you do have to pay attention.

In post #4 Dragonfly asked if those schools had to accept all students. If they do not, then inequality is the issue.

In post #9 you indicated that you did not know and didn't care to look up the information. Then you stated that your district had charters (whose guidelines you say you do not know) and added "are not against charter schools and neither am I." So you are not against charter schools even though you have just said that you didn't know if they were held to equal standards or not. Therefore my statement that you didn't mind inequality in your schools is consistent with your statement that you were not against charters after indicating that you didn't know if they were inequitable or not.

Indeed, in posts 16 and 18, other DU'ers were kind enough to educate you about the inequalities of some charter schools. Following the information offered to you, you again stated that you didn't care to learn about these kinds of things, saying "Why should I?"

I know that it's hard to actually follow a thread and what is said when you are blitz posting snarks, but it's nice to have people offer to bring you up to speed. No need for an apology. Everybody makes silly mistakes. But that is the risk you take when you start bleating about straw men and using smilies as a form of discussion.

So now that you know that charter schools are inequitable do you still "not against" them?

[donco6]

135. chirp chirp chirp chirp n/t

[Jakes Progress]

157. That is what a little birdie told me.

[ClarkUSA]

139. No quotes? Didn't think so.

[Jakes Progress]

156. I thought I said you had to pay attention.

i can see where you missed the point, but then you were just avoiding the point all along. That's the goal, right?

[ClarkUSA]

165. I am "paying attention" to the fact you have nothing but strawman arguments.

:rofl:

[Jakes Progress]

182. Avoiding questions and ducking your own words is not paying attention.

[ClarkUSA]

187. Avoiding the fact that your strawman arguments and red herrings have been a big FAIL is amusing.

It's positively Clintonian, in fact. :D

[Name removed]

195. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ClarkUSA]

226. Not interested. People who push strawman fallacies are not worth the effort.

[NYC_SKP]

262. Funny, Myth #1: All public schools must take all students.

Bullshit.

In reality they're quite happy kicking their asses out to end up in continuation schools and then juvenile halls and then worse.

Where I work, with the charter and public schools I actively support every day, most charters are PUBLIC CHARTER SCHOOLS WITH 100% UNION teaching staff.

So, enough of the myths and misconceptions.

You're right, ClarkUSA.

People ought to go out and actually visit schools and meet teachers instead of relying on blogs and discussion boards for non-facts to develop opinions.

Off to work...

:donut:

[WinkyDink]

148. Public schools have one law; Take everyone within the district. Period.

[ClarkUSA]

167. By definition, public schools don't charge tuition for kids in their district.

Wikipedia and the US Department of Education both concur that charter schools are public schools. Sorry, but they are more credible than any anonymous blogger who is clearly biased against the concept of charter schools.

[WinkyDink]

207. Who said anything about tuition? I merely defined what public schools must do. CHARTERS may reject,

or put on "waiting lists."
Or do you think a charter school for the performing arts, say, must accept complete incompetents?

You are being deliberately obtuse in your extremely narrow use of the word "public."

[ClarkUSA]

244. So what if you do? The US Department of Education defines charter schools as public schools.

Read all about the PUBLIC CHARTER SCHOOLS PROGRAM (PCSP): http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/opepd/ppss/reports.html#charter

It follows that they would get public funding. What's the big deal? Why are some people whining about it?

[LTX]

264. Wrong. Public Schools include magnet schools,

which have individual scholastic programs, and have individual admissions standards, requirements, and academic qualifications. They are not required "to take everyone in the district." Houston, for example, has 54 magnet elementary schools, 28 magnet middle schools, and 27 magnet high schools. These schools are entirely funded with public money, and are not dissimilar from charter schools in their admissions restrictions.

[snot]

26. Yes, so we've been told; but who OWNS them, who are the Sr. Mgrs. & what are they paid to run them?

And what recourse do citizens have if the Sr. Mgrs. loot the schools or just fail to do the job, beyond just not renewing the contract in 3-5 years? And at that point, how do we get back all the more competent teachers and administrators who were put out of work?

[ClarkUSA]

31. There are similar problems with incompetent school superintendants.

All school systems have their problems. Teachers who sign with charter schools know what they are in for beforehand, presumably. I doubt that job security is not guaranteed anywhere in their contracts.

[Hannah Bell]

44. no, there aren't "similar problems".

[ClarkUSA]

47. Um, yes, there have been school superintendents who "loot the schools or just fail to do the job."

[Hannah Bell]

166. um, no, the difference is in the public schools they can't get away with much loot because they

don't control the checkbook & disbursements by themselves & there's layers of oversight.

with charter schools we have fraud into the millions of dollars occuring in a SINGLE SCHOOL in a single year.

[ClarkUSA]

189. I just proved you wrong. But do go on prattling as if I didn't. Save face, okay?

:rofl:

[donco6]

36. They have no publicly elected board, so you have no recourse.

I guess that's OK for some folks.

[ClarkUSA]

48. I doubt that there's no recourse. There's been too much disinformation on these kind of OPs.

But "I guess that's OK for some folks."

[Hannah Bell]

60. I guess that's true, when a Walmart-funded front group is cited as a "credible source".

A lot of disinformation indeed.

[ClarkUSA]

87. That's false. uscharterschools.org, wikipedia are my credible sources while you offer none.

BTW, I am also referencing the US Department of Education:

"Charter schools are held accountable to their sponsor—a local school board, state education agency, university, or other entity—to produce positive academic results..."

Source: "Executive Summary--Evaluation of the Public Charter Schools Program: Final Report". US Department of Education. November 19, 2004. Retrieved July 27, 2009: http://www2.ed.gov/rschstat/eval/choice/pcsp-final/execsum.html

[Hannah Bell]

177. us charter schools is not a government site.

While the initial development of the US Charter Schools Web site involved input from numerous individuals in the charter school movement from across the country and the generous support of the US Department of Education, this site is currently supported by a consortium of organizations interested in providing accurate information and promising practices about and for charter schools.


#1 = National Alliance for Public Charter Schools, primary funders = The Walton family

[ClarkUSA]

190. I didn't say they were. But do go on throwing out red herrings. I'm not biting, though.

:rofl:

[donco6]

73. But they have no elected board. So there's no misinformation there, right? n/t

[ClarkUSA]

88. Charter schools are accountable to their sponsor—a local school board, state education agency...

"Charter schools are held accountable to their sponsor—a local school board, state education agency, university, or other entity—to produce positive academic results..."

Source: "Executive Summary--Evaluation of the Public Charter Schools Program: Final Report". US Department of Education. November 19, 2004. Retrieved July 27, 2009: http://www2.ed.gov/rschstat/eval/choice/pcsp-final/execsum.html

Do you have any source for your claim? Because it appears you are wrong and are pushing "misinformation".

Charter schools do indeed, in some cases, answer to "publicly elected boards" aka. local school boards, as I have illustrated with the quote above from a credible source.

[donco6]

149. Charters operate under their own board, which is not publicly elected.

Therefore, they cannot be "public."

[ClarkUSA]

153. By definition, charter schools are public schools, your insistence that they aren't notwithstanding.

[donco6]

159. By your bogus definition. But without a publicly elected board -

They're not public.

[ClarkUSA]

162. Wrong. Both Wikipedia and the US Dep't. of Education agree with me. Give it up.

[donco6]

170. Nope. Certainly not for Wikipedia - LOL!

And the Dept of Education has a vested interest in justifying their erroneous definition of charters as "public." They know they don't have publicly elected boards and cannot be truly "public."

[Hannah Bell]

179. the site you link isn't dept of ed:

I. Site Sponsors

This Web site was established in 1997 and operated until September 18th, 2004 with support from the U.S. Department of Education. Currently the site is neither supported nor endorsed by the U.S. Department of Education.

While the initial development of the US Charter Schools Web site involved input from numerous individuals in the charter school movement from across the country and the generous support of the US Department of Education, this site is currently supported by a consortium of organizations interested in providing accurate information and promising practices about and for charter schools.

#1 Sponsor = National Alliance for Public Charter Schools, start-up & continuing funding courtesy of THE WALMART HEIRS

[ClarkUSA]

191. You're wrong. Again. See down thread, dear. You do love your red herrings, don't you, tho'?

:rofl:

[Hannah Bell]

213. You're wrong, & I've repeatedly pasted this from the site you linked.

Site Sponsors

While the initial development of the US Charter Schools Web site involved input from numerous individuals in the charter school movement from across the country and the generous support of the US Department of Education, this site is currently supported by a consortium of organizations interested in providing accurate information and promising practices about and for charter schools.

This Web site was established in 1997 and operated until September 18th, 2004 with support from the U.S. Department of Education. Currently the site is neither supported nor endorsed by the U.S. Department of Education.

http://www.uscharterschools.org/pub/uscs_docs/blk/about.htm


I wonder why you keep insisting the site is a Dept of Ed site when you know that's false?

[ClarkUSA]

218. Demonizing one of the 3 sources I've cited on this thread doesn't change the fact that...

.... charter schools are indeed public schools.

:)

[Hannah Bell]

222. it's not "demonizing," but fact. The funder of your link is Walmart.

And Walmart is anti-union, anti-labor, one of the top five sponsors of outsourcing & offshoring of US manufacturing, a user of slave labor, and one of the top funders of school "deform" in the country -- for more than a decade.

It has deliberately created front groups like the one you quote as an alternate infrastructure & authority so people like you could link it & scream "Charter schools are public schools! Charter schools are public schools!"

But they're not. They funnel public money into private hands, & remove control out of the reach of locals.

You can continue to repeat your walmart-funded talking points, but any honest observer knows it's pure bullshit.

Funded by Walmart --- oooooh, walmart jest looooooooovesssss children, that's why they work them to death in china.

[ClarkUSA]

225. Wrong. Charter schools are public schools by definition because they don't charge tuition.

[Hannah Bell]

240. lol. & the money goes to private parties who are not public employees.

nor subject to the rules public employees are.

nor mandated to accept public input from the taxpayers funding them.

nor with mandates to disclose the same information to the public.

nor do they receive the wages & benefits of public employees or have the legal/contract protections public employees do.

nor are they mandated to follow the same policies public employees do.

instead, private management sets policies, hires & fires, disburses budget (sometimes to their own real estate & curriculum arms) & uses public money & credit to get loans which it uses in other ventures.

Charter schools are "public" like military contractors are "public".

Charter schools are "public" like Blackwater is "army".

[ClarkUSA]

245. Charter schools are public schools in the eyes of the US Department of Education.

Read all about the PUBLIC CHARTER SCHOOLS PROGRAM (PCSP): http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/opepd/ppss/reports.html#charter

It follows that they would get public funding. What's the big deal? Why are some people whining about it? Some people live to whine, I guess.

[DeltaLitProf]

252. Pretty funny

Suppose someone takes issue with my definition of a word (a ridiculous argument anyway, but bear with me) and I say in return, "But Wikipedia and the US Department of Defense agree with me."

Would that solve the argument for you?

[sabrina 1]

256. The only disinformation I see here is in your comments.

But thanks for keeping this important thread kicked.

[Hannah Bell]

42. you can spend even *more* public money to take them to court.

and all the people who lost their jobs can get together for a class action suit.

bwah-ha.

capital rolls like a train over everyone & calls its pillaging "democracy".

[ClarkUSA]

49. Or not.

[Hannah Bell]

181. yes, the other option is to accept that we live in a corporate feudal state & join

the rest of the peons scratching for $10 an hour, no bennies.

[ClarkUSA]

192. Blah, blah, blah... save it for someone isn't bored by hyperbole, okay?

:tinfoilhat:

[Jakes Progress]

71. Quoting a Charter Schools site about how good charter schools are. Really..

I understand your aversion to research, but your source here is simple self-promotion. Sort of like WalMart's promotion pieces.

You could try this link if it's not too much trouble. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x564213

[ClarkUSA]

89. Your spin is tiresome. Here's some FACTS from wikipedia and the US Department of Education.

While charter schools provide an alternative to other public schools, they are part of the public education system and are not allowed to charge tuition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_school

"Charter schools are held accountable to their sponsor—a local school board, state education agency, university, or other entity—to produce positive academic results..."

Source: "Executive Summary--Evaluation of the Public Charter Schools Program: Final Report". US Department of Education. November 19, 2004. Retrieved July 27, 2009: http://www2.ed.gov/rschstat/eval/choice/pcsp-final/execsum.html

[Jakes Progress]

127. Dupe

[Jakes Progress]

128. This from the spin master. Learn the definition of "fact".

Neither of your selected quotes deals with the issues of the thread. The second is only government verbiage - nothing legal or required. Notice it is a report, not a list of laws and requirements.

The first is, well, it's Wikipedia. Nice place for superficial and unvetted information, but not a source authority. Chances are the Wiki information was written by members of the charter school movement. No way to know.

But you could check out the link I gave you and actually go to sources that can be checked and verified. They tell of things actually happening in charters.

But, of course, the real world isn't what you were looking for.

[ClarkUSA]

137. Quote my "spin" then. All you have is rhetoric. I offer facts with credible sources.

[Jakes Progress]

158. Wiki and a Washington report as credible sources. Good one.

There is your spin. Using bogus sources as "proof" of a point not even being made.

Oh, you forgot to address my question about the sources I submitted. Did you read them? Do you need them explained? You failed to address my issues with your "credible sources".

I'm sorry if my rhetoric bothers you. You do know the meaning, don't you.

: the art of speaking or writing effectively: as
a : the study of principles and rules of composition formulated by critics of ancient times
b : the study of writing or speaking as a means of communication or persuasion

Given the direction and misdirection of your posts, I can see why you would avoid rhetoric. You have no facts. You have no point. So I don't mind taking up your time. It keeps you from shitting on other worthy posts and keeps bumping this one back up. Thanks.

[ClarkUSA]

164. Add the US Dep't. of Education to the list. You are far less credible than they are, believe me.

:rofl:

[Hannah Bell]

171. as i told you, that site isn't run by the us dept of ed, but by a front group funded by the walmart

waltons.

even after that, you pretend otherwise.

[ClarkUSA]

180. You're being disingenuous. Charter schools are public schools because they don't charge tuition....

... in their districts. Wikipedia and the US Department of Education concur on this fact, as well as every single charter school organization. Do you really think you or any other anonymous blogger have any credibility when denying such a fact? It's hilarious to see such deliberate Pravda-esque attempts to attack me.

[donco6]

185. Well, if Wikipedia concurs - facts be damned!

LOL!

They don't have publicly elected boards, therefore cannot be "public". That's very clear.

[ClarkUSA]

194. "facts be damned"? Ah, so that's your motto? Figures.

:rofl:

[Jakes Progress]

193. Just two? Just two iffy sources?

That's what you want to hang your credibility on? Then you cite every single charter school organization. Really? You've got cites from every single one? Hyperbole or bullshit? Which is it? You have no facts. You have no point.

And please. Stop the paranoia and the drama. We are attacking your sources, your premise, and your credibility. Not you. Maybe you hope to bluff this one out, but you lack any hope of fooling anyone into thinking that you know what you are talking about here. A few haphazard google searches shows your information to be poorly concealed pr pieces for the corporate education lobby. You do know that the word "pravda" means truth don't you? Were you home schooled?

[ClarkUSA]

198. Nope, three... as opposed to the big fat ZERO you and others have proffered.

But do go on. It amuses me.

:D

[Jakes Progress]

203. Wiki and charter school pr are not credible sources.

You still haven't read the sources I listed, have you? You haven't looked up the ones on post 155 either, have you. You are amusing yourself into a total lack of credibility.

Do you support privatizing public education? Do you support ending contracts with teacher unions? Do you support using public school taxes to support private corporations?

Can you actually argue a point other than to just keep yelling "I got sources."?

[ClarkUSA]

219. Prove them wrong, then.

[Jakes Progress]

269. Been done over and over on this thread. But you ignore truth and push the corporate line.

[Hannah Bell]

212. you keep insisting your link is dept. of ed. it isn't. as for charging tuition,

they do. they get it from the federal government, & it goes to the employees that the management corp hires -- including *their* management people.

the teachers don't have the protections that district personnel have, don't have the same benefits, pensions, etc. & can be hired & fired at will.

most managment companies make money on the side by charging the "school" to lease property the managment company owns, or for the management company's curriculum & materials, as well as other scames.

what's hilarious is to find you spamming this board about your "department of education" link when you know it's no such thing:

"This Web site was established in 1997 and operated until September 18th, 2004 with support from the U.S. Department of Education. Currently the site is neither supported nor endorsed by the U.S. Department of Education."


It's supported, endorsed & funded by a Walmart front group, the National alliance for public (sic) charter schools.


I suggest that only a person of dubious motives would keep insisting that something false is true when repeatedly shown otherwise.

[ClarkUSA]

223. Charter schools are public schools by definition b/c they don't charge tuition. Period.

[Jakes Progress]

183. Still avoiding questions and ducking.

Did you read the cites I gave. It is not my credibility in question. Your judgement is in question if you think that Wiki and a cite actually run be corporate interests that pretends to be a government site are credible. Do you know better or are you just another duped consumer of their propaganda?

[ClarkUSA]

188. Sorry, I don't bite at red herrings. Such Clintonian efforts are vastly amusing, though.

:rofl:

[Jakes Progress]

196. What you don't do is address issues.

Your motives and actions are quite transparent. We do thank you for helping to bring the OP to more readers.

Do you really have any thoughts about education and about schools? Do you believe that teachers are a source of ruining children? Do you believe that corporate interests will do a better job?

[ClarkUSA]

202. lol! Look in the mirror.

:hi:

[Jakes Progress]

204. I have. I'm quite pretty. But you still haven't answered any questions.

Do you support privatizing public education? Do you believe in terminating contracts with teacher unions? Do you believe in using public school taxes to pay corporate profits?

[ClarkUSA]

217. Not interested. People who push strawman fallacies are not worth the effort.

:boring:

[Jakes Progress]

272. Non informed is a better description than not interested.

As you snooze through any meaningful discussion.

[tpsbmam]

161. I usually stay far away from these arguments but can't here. You're arguing

against many people here who have spent LOTS of time researching and learning about charter schools. I can't speak to the particular DUers you're arguing with, but there are some on this thread on whom I rely for their expertise in US education issues. Yes, expertise. madfloridian is one of those people. This individual is an educator with lots of experience and someone who tirelessly researches the issue and discusses it with other educators from all types of educational institutions. I don't take madfloridian's word for everything -- as I do with everything, when interested I do a little research on my own (as well as reading the background research posters like this provide). Go to madfloridian's journal and read some of the information there on charter schools. Is there a bias there? Yes, there is. But it would be a start for you to learn about the issue. If you're really interested and not just arguing for the sake of arguing, use the information as a springboard and educate yourself about the issue.

You're basing your "research" on wikipedia & a government site. Do you know how wikipedia is compiled? Do government sites ever use propaganda? Noooooooo, not our Obama! Oh wait, he's been pushing charter schools and undermining public school teachers. Maybe you can't just go to a government site and trust absolutely everything you read. I doubt my presidents through my lifetime would lie to me, present information with a bias or fail to tell me the whole story. Nah, my presidents wouldn't do that. :sarcasm:

Research consists of far more than jumping over to wikipedia. I'm trained to do research -- what you do isn't "research," it's referencing a couple of sites without really understanding the breadth and depth of the issue.

And no one was asking you to do research for them. YOU made a blanket statement and failed to back it up, despite your quotes from 2 less than impressive sources.

[Hannah Bell]

173. it's not a government site. it's a site whose #1 sponsor is a charter schools association funded by

the walmart waltons from day 1.

the poster doesn't care & continues to spin it as a dept of ed site. it stopped being a dept of ed site long ago.

[ClarkUSA]

220. Demonization attempts aside, the fact remains that charter schools are public schools.

And Wikipedia sources and the US Department of Education concur. :D

[ClarkUSA]

184. By definition, charter schools are public schools b/c they don't charge tuition in their districts.

It's that simple.

"many people here" are purveyors of disinformation because they are invested in reinforcing anti-charter school bias. They're more interested in demonization than having an honest dialogue.

[donco6]

186. No, they'd be public if they had publicly-elected boards.

But they don't. So they aren't.

[ClarkUSA]

221. Polly wanna cracker?

:rofl:

[WinkyDink]

210. Where's YOUR "dialogue"? All you do is repeat your definition of "public."

[ClarkUSA]

227. I'm not interested in serious dialogue with dishonest players who deny the truth.

And I'm not referring to you, by the way. Just generally speaking, it's a rule of mine.

[patty2828]

84. KIPP

KIPP is a "for profit" company contracting with school districts to manage Charter Schools. Rarely are teachers unionized in such settings. They are typically underpaid, overworked and the test scores tend to be lower than their traditional public school counterparts. Employee turnover tends to be very high.

The dismantling of public education began long ago. Corporations have their fingers in every part of government budgets now, and they will not stop until they completely control them. It is all about money.......they don't care about our children, our democracy or our future. The bottom line is profit.

[ClarkUSA]

90. You're wrong. Knowledge Is Power Program (KIPP) is a non-profit organization.

[Hannah Bell]

175. a non-profit with a real estate/development arm.

start-up $ & continuing funding courtesy of The Gap & Walmart.

It is instructive to ask, why do the Waltons support charter schools such as KIPP and SEED? It is unlikely that the owners of such a ruthless enterprise as Wal-Mart want to support these schools out of purely charitable motives.
A major clue emerges when we compare the KIPP educational model with Wal-Mart’s cult-like work culture. KIPP emphasizes rote learning, blind obedience, and repetition of meaningless cheers. At Wal-Mart, employees are taught company cheers to feel good about working low-wage, dead-end jobs. When you combine this with the fact that KIPP schools are disproportionately located in, and specifically target, low-income children of color, it becomes clear that the role of educational institutions such as KIPP is to educate the next generation of obedient Wal-Mart workers.

By stamping all creative and critical thinking out of young people and teaching them to blindly follow orders, KIPP schools turn out the ideal Wal-Mart worker. In an article, Liza Featherstone recounted her visit to a KIPP school in New York, where she watched second graders chant slogans they had memorized. The principal told her proudly: “We are getting them ready for business.”

Among retail corporations hungry for low-wage, docile workers, Wal-Mart is not the only one with its fingers in the charter school business. The Pisces Foundation, controlled by The Gap founder Donald Fisher, gave $45 million to KIPP schools nationwide over the last several years.

Privatization

Increasingly, we are living in a world where social services that were once run publicly are privatized. Washington, DC hasn’t had a public hospital since DC General closed, a trend replicated in cities across the US. Recently, cities like Stockton, New Orleans, and Atlanta have all attempted to privatize their water systems, while other cities have privatized trash and recycling collection. For-profit private prisons are a growing trend. Can the privatization of public schools be far behind? The corporate strategy consists of setting up “facts on the ground”—private entities that substitute for public schools—and using these entities to undermine funding for the public schools. This deepens the crisis in public education, rendering the public schools ineffective, and serves the eventual goal of shutting them down in order to replace them with schools run by the private sector.

http://www.leftturn.org/?q=node/412

[ClarkUSA]

231. KIPP is a non-profit. Not interested in your demonizing characterizations past that fact.

Your oped source is not credible. Where is the proof of Sav's allegations? I see no footnotes.

Never mind, I'm not into overwrought hyperbole, anyway.

[DeltaLitProf]

253. I invite you to another discussion board.

There, it's more accepted to answer common sense responses with "your characterizations are demonizing" instead of credible evidence from sources acceptable to most fair-minded auditors. Here, it's more likely you'll be challenged to produce that evidence.

I think you'll be much more at home in that other discussion board.

[WinkyDink]

209. What about this language do you not understand:

"freedom from many of the regulations that apply to traditional public schools."

"Freedom from":
State-mandated Standardized testing.
Special-education due process.
State-mandated curricular benchmarks.
Required hours in certain subject areas; e.g., physical education.

And freedom from teachers with actual credentials IN THEIR SUBJECTS.

[LWolf]

260. The same refrain repeated ad nauseum doesn't make it so. nt

[madfloridian]

2. Interesting comments after the Tennessean article.

[Starry Messenger]

3. k & r

[DeltaLitProf]

5. Charter schools are a way to bust teachers' unions . . . period

And they're a way corporations can influence the education children receive so that they are more compliant consumers and workers. Progressives have to oppose them.

[Dragonfli]

6. True, but corporate owned "Democrats" love them so they must be "progressive"

[aquart]

7. I loathe them. Always have.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madfloridian]

10. I agree.

That's why it is so hard for teachers in charter schools to organize and form unions.

[madfloridian]

11. And they will be future of schools.

[ClarkUSA]

28. Really? How so? Or is that mere speculative conjecture unsupported by evidence?

Why are some people so threatened by a smattering of charter schools who are, after all, public schools? What's with the vitriol?

I pay a helluva lot in school taxes a year. There are a few of them in my town and the teachers I know don't object to them, much less express a visceral hatred for the charter school concept.

[DeltaLitProf]

254. It matters zilch what you call them.

Charter schools are NOT accountable to the public. They get to game their test scores by excluding students they believe will ruin their scores. They get to fire teachers without the due process teacher's unions have worked hard and cried bloody tears to get recognized and implemented. And they get outrageously large sums of money because their corporate patrons happen to have connections to the right politicians.

Can you provide evidence (non-gamed evidence) from credible sources that charter schools outperform public schools all other things being equal?

You can't. They don't. Even with their ability to exclude students they don't outperform their public school competition.

You want evidence. Here's a study by Margaret Raymond (Stanford University). She's a member of the Right-wing Hoover Institution. Even she could not ignore the hard statistical evidence that charter schools do not perform better:

http://credo.stanford.edu/reports/National_Release.pdf

[SoCalDem]

12. I have to wonder what effect this trend will have on the would-be teachers of tomorrow

Why would young people spend all that money on an education that will translate into no job security?

[madfloridian]

13. I think people won't want to enter fields with no job security.

They may of necessity for a year or so, but teaching is a tough job.

[JuniperLea]

20. What field does have job security these days?

I can't think of one, outside of perhaps mortician.

[snot]

27. Consider: we need to work to strengthen & extend unions, in more kinds of work & in more countries,

rather than permitting the last few to be destroyed.

[Diane R]

17. A lot of people spend money to get jobs with no job security. Teacher's aren't special, you know.

Architects, engineers, doctors, lawyers, dentists, accountants, etc. None of those people have job security. Teachers have not been living in the real world.

[webDude]

19. On what planet do you live? Teachers deal with the real of the real, every...

...day, in their face.

[Diane R]

21. Teachers who believe they should be guaranteed job security for life do not live in the real world.

[Jakes Progress]

24. People who rant about teachers being the bad guys

don't live in the real world. See if you think real hard you can see why tenure would exist for reasons beyond the propaganda that the right wing corporate interests tell you.

Or perhaps you think the trend toward ending unions and ending American jobs is a good thing. Perhaps you think that training and experience aren't really something a teacher should have. Or perhaps a teacher caught you smoking behind behind the gym in 8th grade and you've never forgiven her.

[ClarkUSA]

30. Who did that? Quote, please?

Diane R makes a good point separate from the OP topic.

[Hannah Bell]

33. baiting.

[ClarkUSA]

37. As in red?

;)

[Jakes Progress]

70. Her pout about teachers not deserving job security

was the point of my post. What is the point of yours? Why don't you state an opinion rather than just snipe attack other posts.

And if Diane R wants to make a point separate from the OP, then she should write an OP. She could call it "Teachers don't deserve job security". Wonderful concept for a Democratic forum.

[ClarkUSA]

93. "pout"? There's no need to "snipe attack other posts." That's not what she said, either.

Here are links to what she said, Jakes Progress:

Diane R (1000+ posts) Mon Oct-11-10 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #12

17. A lot of people spend money to get jobs with no job security. Teacher's aren't special, you know. Architects, engineers, doctors, lawyers, dentists, accountants, etc. None of those people have job security. Teachers have not been living in the real world.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9293423&mesg_id=9297525

Diane R (1000+ posts) Mon Oct-11-10 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #19

21. Teachers who believe they should be guaranteed job security for life do not live in the real world.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9293423&mesg_id=9298453

There is no need to subjectively paraphrase what Diane R said when there are quotes to be had. Her points are sensible and so far, I haven't seen any reasonable rebuttal to her opinions.

<< And if Diane R wants to make a point separate from the OP, then she should write an OP. >>

Why "should" she do that? If you feel she is violating a DU rule, feel free to notify the mods.

[Jakes Progress]

126. Diane R wasn't sniping.

You were. I was asking for an opinion from you about teachers and job security.

Her posts were simply silly. Teachers have no more job security than do architects, engineers, doctors, lawyers, and the rest of here list. All of those people have the job security of their contracts. Teachers have the job security of their contracts. If she wants to subjectively say that teachers have guaranteed job security she is either upset because she is in precarious position herself or she is just another MSM misinformed dupe. Hence, her little distraction from the point of the OP deserved the term "pout" since it shows her to be exactly what she claimed teachers were.

Glad to see that chivalry is not dead and that you came to here defense though. Good for you. Tilting at windmills and all.

[ClarkUSA]

140. Not at all. You were, with your "rant" and "pout" accusations. Tsk, tsk.

[Jakes Progress]

205. Missed the point again I see. On purpose of by design?

[ClarkUSA]

224. Wrong. Charter schools are public schools by definition because they don't charge tuition.

[Jakes Progress]

270. Wrong. My local church doesn't charge tuition.

Neither does the local Wal-Mart. That doesn't make them public schools. I can see why you don't like to make statements about what you think. Your statements like this are so embarrassingly uninformed and ill-thought out that you have to follow each post like this with a dozen posts of whine and bleat.

Well. Thanks anyway for helping get the OP to more people. We can't just keep kicking it ourselves so getting to reply to silly posts like this is the best way to keep it at the top of the forum.

[Hannah Bell]

169. diane r has never made a "good point" her entire time on this thread.

unless it's a fox news talking point.

[WinkyDink]

150. Are you joking? That WAS the "real world" for DECADES, in both private and public sectors.

[Hannah Bell]

168. not since the fascists took over, no.

[WinkyDink]

151. ("Teacher's" what?) Yes, PLEASE show me the doctor, lawyer, and dentist without job security!

THEN show me any who live in townhomes, as teachers often do; or do not belong to country clubs, as teachers often do not; or who make less than $100K/year, etc.

I don't begrudge doctors one thin dime. But let's not be disingenuous about their "job security."

[laughingliberal]

14. +1000 nt

[ibegurpard]

56. I am more concerned about the corporate influence than the union busting

but both should be opposed

[grantcart]

263. See post 26 above which disproves your assertion, period.

[laughingliberal]

15. knr. nt

[Divine Discontent]

23. nauseating... what else can be said. this attack on public schools is putrid and shameful...

btw, did Oprah do a piece with public schools, to give them some time to talk about how they're trying to do what's best for kids, like she had on the charter people a few weeks back? I thought I saw there was gonna be a show where she did that, I don't hardly ever watch her, and was just wondering. thanks for this OP, MF.

[madfloridian]

29. Yes, she had the reformers on.

She announced she was donating millions to charters.

She has been pretty critical of public school teachers.

[Divine Discontent]

67. ty for the update. n/t

[ClarkUSA]

32. How so? Charter schools ARE public schools.

Read more about this fact:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9293423&mesg_id=9293452

[Divine Discontent]

68. look! it's...

let's not confuse 'publicly and privately funded' with 'public schools'. They pick n choose who they want, and the people in charge of them are often accused of letting a lil power go to their head. I've seen plenty of stories of scamming of the public's money from some of them, and they just don't have to follow the same rules - I don't think that's right.


here, check this out since you trust wiki...


Critiques of charter schools
Difficulties with accountability

The basic concept of charter schools is that they exercise increased autonomy in return for greater accountability. They are meant to be held accountable for both academic results and fiscal practices to several groups, including the sponsor that grants them, the parents who choose them, and the public that funds them. Charter schools can theoretically be closed for failing to meet the terms set forth in their charter, but in practice, this can be difficult, divisive, and controversial. One example was the 2003 revocation of the charter for a school called Urban Pioneer in the San Francisco Unified School District, which first came under scrutiny when two students died on a school wilderness outing.<69> An auditor's report found that the school was in financial disarray<70> and posted the lowest test scores of any school in the district except those serving entirely non-English-speakers.<71> It was also accused of academic fraud, graduating students with far fewer than the required credits.<69> There is also the case of California Charter Academy, where a publicly funded but privately run chain of 60 charter schools became insolvent in August 2004, despite a budget of $100 million, which left thousands of children without a school to attend.<46>

In March 2009, the Center for Education Reform released its latest data on charter school closures. At that time they found that 657 of the more than 5250 charter schools that have ever opened had closed, for reasons ranging from district consolidation to failure to attract students. The study found that "41 percent of the nation's charter closures resulted from financial deficiencies caused by either low student enrollment or inequitable funding," while 14% had closed due to poor academic performance. The report also found that the absence of achievement data "correlates directly with the weakness of a state's charter school law. For example, states like Iowa, Mississippi, Virginia and Wyoming have laws ranked either "D" or "F". Progress among these schools has not been tracked objectively or clearly."<14> A 2005 paper found that in Connecticut, which it characterized as having been highly selective in approving charter applications, a relatively large proportion of poorly performing charter schools have closed.<72> Under Connecticut's relatively weak charter law<73>, only 21 charter schools have opened in all, and of those, five have closed.<74> Of those, 3 closed for financial reasons. Charter school students in Connecticut are funded on average $4,278 less than regular public school students.<23>

In a September 2007 public policy report, education experts Andrew Rotherham and Sara Mead of Education Sector offered a series of recommendations to improve charter school quality through increased accountability. Some of their recommendations urged policymakers to: (i) provide more public oversight of charter school authorizers, including the removal of poor-quality authorizers, (ii) improve the quality of student performance data with more longitudinal student-linked data and multiple measures of school performance, and (iii) clarify state laws related to charter school closure, especially the treatment of displaced students.<75>
Lottery for admissions disappoints some

When admission depends on a random lottery, some hopeful applicants may be disappointed. A film about the admission lottery at the Harlem Success Academy, New York City, has been shown as The Lottery.<76><77> It was inspired by a 2008 lottery.<77>
Collective bargaining

Concern has also been raised about the exemption of charter school teachers from states' collective bargaining laws, especially because "charter school teachers are even more likely than traditional public school teachers to be beset by the burn-out caused by working long hours, in poor facilities."<78> It has recently been noted that "an increasing number of teachers at charter schools" are now attempting to restore collective bargaining rights.<79>
Racial segregation

Most studies find that charter schools foster and support racial diversity coupled with elevated educational development. However, one study states that charter schools increase racial segregation.<46> A UCLA report points out that most charter schools are located in African-American neighborhoods.<80>
Too much power for teachers and parents

Professor Frank Smith, of Teachers College, Columbia University, sees the charter-school movement as a chance to involve entire communities in redesigning all schools and converting them to "client-centered, learning cultures" (1997). He favors the Advocacy Center Design process used by state-appointed Superintendent Laval Wilson to transform four failing New Jersey schools. Building stronger communities via newly designed institutions may prove more productive than charters' typical "free-the-teacher-and-parent" approach.
Student test scores down and staff turnover higher

It is as yet unclear whether charters' lackluster test results (when lackluster) will affect the enacting of future legislation. A Pennsylvania legislator who voted to create charter schools, State Rep. Mark B. Cohen of Philadelphia, said that "Charter schools offer increased flexibility to parents and administrators, but at a cost of reduced job security to school personnel. The evidence to date shows that the higher turnover of staff undermines school performance more than it enhances it, and that the problems of urban education are far too great for enhanced managerial authority to solve in the absence of far greater resources of staff, technology, and state of the art buildings."
Special needs getting less support or nonadmission

Studies have shown many instances of charter schools cutting programs or refusing to educate students with special needs in order to maintain profitability.<81>

[donco6]

34. 270 Students - $10 million renovation. HUH?

The average cost in the U.S. for a brand new 700 student school is about $14 million. Ground up. And they're spending $10 million to renovate a building for 270 kids? WTF? Idiotic.

[johnaries]

35. Whoa. wait! I'm a fucking NASHVILLIAN and I know that first article LIES!

And even though Dean is a Repuke and I've got other problems with him, the schools he's targeted really DO need some serious renovations.

As for Hume-Fogg, it's a downtown building that dates back to the 1800's and has been renovated MANY times. It's actually a beautiful building, but it needs to be relegated to the "histroy" bin. Plus, it's a MAGNET school - basically just another version of a charter school.

children eating in the halls? Bullshit!

Nashville and TN has some serious problems with it's education, but this just totally misreperesents the problems and issues.

I know. I grew up here in Nashville. I've been in the Nashville area for 53 years. (technically, I'm now in Pegram, but it's simply a "bedroom community" for Nashville).

God, I hate seeing lies being spread as the truth.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madfloridian]

39. Oh wow. What a day. He is using public money to renovate a charter...

10 million of it.

Is that the only school that needs work on it? Why 10 million on that one when it is a privately run school.

I thinking saying I am lying is a personal attack, don't you?

[ClarkUSA]

40. Charter schools ARE public schools. You are incorrectly describing them as "a privately run school."

See Reply #1: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9293423&mesg_id=9293452

[Hannah Bell]

45. It *is* a privately run school. KIPP Schools are run by the largest charter

management organization in the US -- more than 70 schools across the US.

KIPP's expansion was funded the Fisher Family, owners of the GAP, & big school deform funders.

KIPP determines policy, curriculum, hires & fires, & lobbies.

it's privately run, for all you try to pretend otherwise.

if parents don't like the policy decisions, they're free to "choose" a different school.

if community members don't like the policy decisions, they have no say whatsoever, even though they indirectly fund the school through their taxes.

[ClarkUSA]

46. I have already seen a Nashville native debunk the content of the OP.

Forgive me if I am dubious at the description, considering charter schools are indeed public schools.

[Hannah Bell]

50. what does that have to do with whether or not KIPP is a private school management organization?

The biggest chain-school management org in the US?

Please point me to this "debunking" that contradicts reportage from local and national papers?

[ClarkUSA]

54. Give it up. I read up on KIPP. Once again: Charter schools are public schools, not "private school".

[ibegurpard]

57. no they're not

see, i can do it too

[ClarkUSA]

58. Unlike you, I've got the facts on my side. See reply #1 and Wikipedia.

Here, I'll even give you a link to Reply #1:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9293423&mesg_id=9293452

Wikipedia also confirms that charter schools are indeed public schools:

While charter schools provide an alternative to other public schools, they are part of the public education system and are not allowed to charge tuition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_school

[Hannah Bell]

59. The National Alliance for Public Charter Schools = "credible"? The one funded by the Waltons?

Bwah-ha.


Among education-overhaul groups receiving $1 million or more were the Alliance for School Choice Inc., $1.9 million... National Alliance for Public Charter Schools, $1.5 million...

http://walmartwatch.com/blog/archives/walton_family_ranks_37th_in_charitable_giving/.

It's one of their pet orgs.

Walton has also been active in building a national
charter school infrastructure. Walton has been
a long-time funder of the National Alliance for
Public Charter Schools, a nonprofit, pro-charter
research and advocacy group, and of the Alliance’s
predecessor, the Charter Friends National
Network.

Charter Friends received nearly $1 million
from the foundation between 2002 and 2003, and
since then the Alliance has received an additional
$1.5 million from Walton.

http://www.educationsector.org/usr_doc/CTDWalton.pdf

So to you, "credible source" = "funded by far-right union-busting fundies".

ok.

[ClarkUSA]

63. Um, Wikipedia sources confirm it, too. What have you got except "Bwah-ha"?

[Hannah Bell]

65. confirm what? that your "credible site" is funded by walmart?

[ClarkUSA]

75. lol! That's disingenuous spin. FACT: Charter schools are public schools, not "private school".

[donco6]

102. They'd be public if they had a publicly elected board.

But they don't.

[ClarkUSA]

144. By definition, charter schools are public schools, your insistence that they aren't notwithstanding.

[donco6]

147. No public control, therefore not public.

Charters operate under their own, NOT publicly-elected board. Therefore they are not public. Regardless of what the Walton's say.

[ClarkUSA]

154. Why do you keep pushing a fallacy that I've proved incorrect time and again?

[donco6]

174. Because you haven't and because it's not a fallacy.

It's simply the truth. You should try it sometime.

[ClarkUSA]

176. By definition, charter schools are public schools b/c they don't charge tuition in their districts.

That is a simple fact you cannot spin away, no matter how hard you try.

[donco6]

178. They don't have publicly-elected boards.

Therefore they cannot be "public."

[ClarkUSA]

228. Polly wanna cracker?

:rofl:

[donco6]

261. Haha! You silly!

You did it again! You keep going off topic. You're so naughty!

[Hannah Bell]

214. because walmart says so? over & over & over & over & over? that's a propaganda technique,

not credibility.

[ClarkUSA]

229. I don't know what "walmart says". Quote a press release.

[Jakes Progress]

199. Please stop trying to use Wiki as a credible source. It's embarrassing

You do know how Wiki works don't you? My guess is that you do, but you continue to use it because you have noting credible.

[ClarkUSA]

230. How Clintonian. Are you going wag your finger at me, too?

[Jakes Progress]

266. You might need it.

What is it with you and the Clintons. They have nothing to do with this thread. We all notice how you love to detract from the point of a message where your point of view is unprovable crap by throwing out straw men and red herrings. S'okay with me. You've got viewership of this valuable OP up to over 3000. Thanks for helping us get the word out about the scam that charter schools are.

[ibegurpard]

61. rofl at using wilkipedia as proof of anything

[ClarkUSA]

62. lol! I'll take them over anonymous bloggers anytime. What have you got except giggles?

[Hannah Bell]

66. he also uses walmart propaganda. two "credible sources". i mean, if wikipedia & walmart tell us

"charter schools are public schools," who are we to argue?

[donco6]

74. But - but it's in a grey box! It MUST be true! n/t

[ClarkUSA]

77. Facts are truer than perfidious parsing by anonymous bloggers who cannot back up their claims...

... but attack those who can.

[donco6]

80. Your links suck.

No parsing there, eh?

[ClarkUSA]

81. The truth doesn't "suck" for those who are willing to have an honest dialogue about an issue.

FACT: Charter schools are public schools.

[donco6]

83. Fact: Charter schools don't have publicly elected boards. N/t

[ClarkUSA]

86. Charter schools are accountable to their sponsor—a local school board, state education agency...

"Charter schools are held accountable to their sponsor—a local school board, state education agency, university, or other entity—to produce positive academic results..."

Source: "Executive Summary--Evaluation of the Public Charter Schools Program: Final Report". US Department of Education. November 19, 2004. Retrieved July 27, 2009: http://www2.ed.gov/rschstat/eval/choice/pcsp-final/execsum.html

Do you have any source for your "FACT"? Because it appears you are wrong.

Charter schools do indeed, in some cases, answer to "publicly elected boards" aka. local school boards, as I have illustrated with the quote above from a credible source.

[donco6]

92. Charters have no publicly elected board.

The only "accountability" they have is to the approved charter. Outside of that, parents have no recourse whatsoever.

[ClarkUSA]

94. You keep making claims yet you continue to offer no evidence for them despite repeated requests.

This, I give no credence to your rhetoric, especially since I have proof otherwise:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9293423&mesg_id=9301907

Give it up. :rofl:

[donco6]

95. Ignore me please. I beg you. N/t

[ClarkUSA]

96. lol! Just as I thought. You got nuthin' to back up your claims.

[donco6]

97. Charters don't have publicly-elected boards.

It's just a fact. Sorry to disappoint.

[ClarkUSA]

One mo' time: Prove it. Where's the evidence to back up your claim?

[donco6]

99. There aren't any charters with publicly-elected boards.

Unless you can come up with one.

[ClarkUSA]

100. Prove it. Rhetoric does not "a fact" make.

[donco6]

101. There are no charters with publicly-elected boards. Just a fact. n/t

[ClarkUSA]

103. No, it is not "a fact" unless you prove it. You obviously can't, so you keep parroting your claim.

:tinfoilhat:

[donco6]

104. Not a claim - just the truth.

BTW - have you ever voted in a charter school election? Funny, I've never seen a charter board member on my ballot . . . hmmm . . . odd.

[ClarkUSA]

106. US Dep't of Ed: Charter schools are accountable to their sponsor, which can be a local school board.

For proof, see my reply #86 to you again:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9293423&mesg_id=9301907

"Funny, I've... seen" a local school "board member on my ballot... hmmm... odd."

:D

[donco6]

107. I've never elected a charter board member - they're not publicly elected.

Therefore, they're not public.

[ClarkUSA]

109. ROFL! Playing word games and ignoring the evidence? You can't admit you're wrong, can you?

:rofl:

[donco6]

110. Just delivering the truth.

It's refreshing! You should try it.

[ClarkUSA]

113. lol! The "truth" is you just changed what you said & moved the goalposts now that I proved you wrong

:eyes:

You originally said: "Fact: Charter schools don't have publicly elected boards. N/t"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9293423&mesg_id=9300946

I have proven you wrong, so now you're playing semantic games, changed the wording of your claim from what you said originally thus conveniently (for you) moving the goalposts.

How obvious you are. How funny. :rofl:

[donco6]

115. Charters don't have publicly-elected boards.

Therefore they are not public. Just a fact.

[ClarkUSA]

119. Wrong. Some charter schools answer to local school boards, as per the US Dep't. of Education.

[donco6]

120. None have publicly-elected boards.

Hence, they're not public.

[ClarkUSA]

125. US Dep't of Ed: Charter schools are accountable to their sponsor, which can be a local school board.

Proof of my claim right here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9293423&mesg_id=9303224

Local school boards are publicly-elected boards. Hence, you're wrong. Ad infinitum.

Some "meeting" eh? Lasted all of what? 20 minutes? I could hazard a guess, but I'd rather not. :puke:

Ah, the sophistry some people resort to! :rofl:

[donco6]

131. I've never had a charter board member on my ballot.

Isn't that strange? It seems there are no publicly-elected charter board members.

[ClarkUSA]

142. Playing semantics? Charter schools are public schools which sometimes answer to local school boards.

[donco6]

108. Oh, and dont' forget - there are no publicly elected charter boards.

I think I forgot to add that.

[ClarkUSA]

111. How disingenuous. You're moving the goalposts. That's not what you said at first (see reply 83).

You originally said: "Fact: Charter schools don't have publicly elected boards. N/t"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9293423&mesg_id=9300946

I have proven you wrong, so now you're playing semantic games and moved the goalposts. How pathetic.

[donco6]

112. Been saying the same thing all along.

They're not publicly elected, therefore, they are not "public." Do try to keep up.

[ClarkUSA]

114. US Dep't of Ed: Charter schools are accountable to their sponsor, which can be a local school board.

Proof of my claim right here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9293423&mesg_id=9301907

Local school boards are '"publicly elected, therefore, they are... "public." Do try to keep up.' :)

Give. It. Up. You are busted. :rofl:

[donco6]

116. I've never had a charter board member on my ballot.

That's odd, no? It's because they're not publicly elected. Simple.

[ClarkUSA]

118. lol! You just can't admit I proved you wrong, eh?

:)

[donco6]

121. If you had, I'd be first to admit it.

But you haven't. There are no publicly elected charter boards, therefore there are no public charter schools.

[ClarkUSA]

123. ROFL! Gee, that "meeting" sure didn't last long. Keep splitting those hairs!

:rofl:

[donco6]

129. Got canceled - so more time to play!

Just hanging out til board meeting time. Now, where were we? Oh yeah! I was telling you how there are no publicly-elected charter school boards. And you were coming back with nothing of value.

[donco6]

117. I have a meeting for a while - play with yourself til I get back. n/t

[ClarkUSA]

122. I've proven that charter schools ARE public schools which sometimes answer to local school boards.

I will always be indebted to you for providing me with the impetus to get all the sources with which to prove you wrong:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9293423&mesg_id=9303224

Oh, and local school board members ARE on your ballot, eh?

:rofl:

[donco6]

132. They're never run by publicly-elected boards though.

They always have their own board that's not publicly elected. See how that works?

[ClarkUSA]

136. "run"? Moving the goalposts again? That's not what you said originally.

This is what you said in Reply #83: "Fact: Charter schools don't have publicly elected boards. N/t"

Playing word games again?

[donco6]

138. Nope, saying the same thing all along.

Charter schools don't have publicly elected boards. Pretty simple.

[ClarkUSA]

141. US Dep't of Ed: Some charter schools are accountable to their local school board.

Local school boards are publicly elected, aren't they? Pretty simple.

[donco6]

143. Charter schools have their own board, which is not publicly-elected.

Therefore, they're not public schools.

[ClarkUSA]

145. Uh huh. And I'm Elizabeth Warren.

[donco6]

146. GASP! You didn't reply right.

WTF?

[ClarkUSA]

163. No, by definition charter schools = public schools b/c they don't charge tuition in their districts.

[donco6]

172. And they don't have publicly elected boards. n/t

[ClarkUSA]

232. US Dep't. of Ed: Some charter schools are accountable to their local school board.

[Hannah Bell]

215. charter schools have boards. so do corporations. neither are elected by the public. get it?

[ClarkUSA]

233. US Dep't. of Ed: Some charter schools are accountable to their local school board.

Check it out:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9293423&mesg_id=9301907

I believe local school boards are elected by the public.

Furthermore, the US Department of Education considers charter schools to be public schools.

Read all about the PUBLIC CHARTER SCHOOLS PROGRAM (PCSP): http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/opepd/ppss/reports.html#charter

[Hannah Bell]

239. key word: "some". what's not explained in that "some" is that the school board has

in most cases only the power to withdraw its charter, not a voice in policy. and that the decision to allow charters isn't up to the local district -- the decisions are made in the state legislature.

[ClarkUSA]

246. Proof? Because charter schools ARE public schools in the eyes of the US Department of Education.

Read all about the PUBLIC CHARTER SCHOOLS PROGRAM (PCSP): http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/opepd/ppss/reports.html#charter

It follows that they would get public funding. What's the big deal? Not sure why some people keep whining about it. Guess it's a bad habit.

[sulphurdunn]

130. The key pharse is

"in some cases", twenty percent of the cases or less to be more precise. That is rapidly changing as state legislatures compete for federal dollars by authorizing multiple authorizing agencies that either have the power to overturn local boards or to by-pass them altogether (please read RTTT grant requirements). Just last year, here in Virginia, a bill to grant the state DOE authority to overrule a local board that denied a charter was barely defeated. It will be back this year and every year until the LEA becomes a mere rubber stamp for race to the trough money. Because only local boards can currently charter schools, Virginia is not a contender for RTTT funds, and there are only six charter schools in this state. Similar legislation will be proffered in other non-charter states like Virginia. So, you are technically correct in your criticism. I should have qualified that statement. Nevertheless, my argument remains solid, but thank you. I always appreciate attention to detail. Please check these links.

http://www.edreform.com/legislators/CER_multiplecharterauthorizerprimer.pdf

http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Washington_Charter_School_Authorization,_Referendum_55_%282004%29

http://www.qualitycharters.org/index.php

[donco6]

133. Race to the trough! LOL!

The state can charter here in Colorado, and it's routine. A local board denies a charter for good reason - they already have several that address the needs of the applicant, the applicant cannot demonstrate enough interest, the charter doesn't have a clear financial plan, etc. etc. They just go to the state and the state approves them. I don't think they've ever turned one down.

[laughingliberal]

247. Thank you. Very informative. nt

[Jakes Progress]

200. You and an honest dialogue. Now that's funny.

[ClarkUSA]

234. Yes, it's "funny" to think I could ever have one with a Clintonian who pushes strawman fallacies.

[Jakes Progress]

267. Do you believe that contracts with teacher unions should be terminated?

I know you don't like to offer real opinions or address the issues, but I thought I would try. Plus it helps keep the OP's message up there.

[ClarkUSA]

76. That's false. uscharterschools.org and wikipedia are my credible sources while you offer none.

[Jakes Progress]

201. Check the long list at post 155.

[ClarkUSA]

235. What? That "long list" of perfidious parsing and outright distortion is total bullshit.

[Jakes Progress]

268. Yeah. Not authoritative like Wiki and corporate PR. You lack reality.

[WinkyDink]

152. Charter schools take public school students, but they do not have to take EVERY one. And that is a

HUGE FRICKIN' DIFFERENCE.

[Hannah Bell]

51. It's a lie that this school is receiving $10 million for renovations while others get zero?

It's a lie that 10% of earmarked CITY renovation dollars go to this single school?

Here's what "The Tennessean" says:

It took ripping away the red tape,a hefty sum of money and a powerful politician, but this year the decaying, partially vacant school building leased by KIPP Academy is getting a renovation.

Highland Heights, the historic East Nashville building that has housed KIPP Academy since 2005, is budgeted to get a $10 million upgrade courtesy of a high-profile champion: Mayor Karl Dean.

Dean asked the school district to turn the building over to the city, allowing him to fund upgrades.
KIPP's special treatment is irritating some supporters of traditional public schools who argue that other aging buildings, such as Hume-Fogg High School, have been waiting in line for years for money to modernize.

But Dean says he would like to expand capital support for successful charters, and he hopes KIPP's upgraded building will benefit the gentrifying community and send a message nationally that Nashville is a city willing to aid charter schools with buildings. He joins a small movement of other cities and states trying harder to help charters find a home.

http://www.tennessean.com/article/20101010/NEWS04/10100365/1018/NEWS01


It's a special deal cut for a charter school. KIPP will wind up *owning* that building, mark my words.


Here's another Nashville HS:

Walking into Martin Luther King Jr. Academic Magnet, once Nashville's premier black high school, the first things a visitor notices are buckets arranged to catch drips from the leaking roof, stained and damaged walls that serve as bad art, and the lack of basic amenities in this math and sciences magnet for seventh through 12th grade.

The mold sets off junior Tabitha Johnson's allergies. One day, a falling blade from a worn industrial fan nearly clocked junior Blake Ezell. Students and faculty share the 1930s-era building with such brazen rodents that Principal Schunn Turner says she keeps her purse in a plastic container while at work "so I don't bring home any unwanted guests."

Welcome to one of the nation's top high schools (No. 30 on the U.S. News Best High Schools list). Martin Luther King isn't an anomaly. Not far away, at Hume-Fogg Academic Magnet (No. 26 on the U.S. News list), things are worse, says Joe Edgens, executive director of facilities and operations at Metropolitan Nashville Public Schools. Hume-Fogg's classical, century-old exterior belies problems inside: The roof and floors are shot, and "we're the only high school in the state without a functioning gym," says the principal, Paul Fleming, who has waited more than 10 years for the district to provide one. He says the physical state of the school ranks in parental surveys as "the No. 1 concern."

A facilities assessment of the 137 schools ranks Hume-Fogg as the worst off among the district's 12 high schools.

http://education.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/articles/education/high-schools/2009/12/09/nashville-schools-success-a-testament-to-teachers-and-kids.html


Is this a "lie" too?

[Hannah Bell]

53. "A facilities assessment of the 137 schools ranks Hume-Fogg as the worst off among the district's

12 high schools"

http://education.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/articles/education/high-schools/2009/12/09/nashville-schools-success-a-testament-to-teachers-and-kids.html

is this a "lie" too?

rats in the MLK "magnet" school?

everyone's lying but you & the privatizers?

[Diane R]

64. Thank you for setting the record in the OP straight.

[Lars39]

72. You're out of touch.

The lunchroom facilities are too small, at least at MLK. Kids *are* eating in hallways.
http://education.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/articles/education/high-schools/2009/12/09/nashville-schools-success-a-testament-to-teachers-and-kids.html?PageNr=2

[madfloridian]

41. This post is not a lie. The articles are not lies. I am sick of this stuff.

The blogger AND the article are correct.

KIPP is NOT a magnet, it is charter school, privately run.

It should not get precedence over public schools. NO, it is NOT a true public school.

This is the climate that the Obama administration has set up. People like me who taught for years, decades, are now the enemy.

[madfloridian]

43. People who defend public education are now the "enemies" here.

And that is a crying shame.

I have been at the receiving end of ugly remarks all day. And because I defend public education and this administration does not....I must take it??

A line has been crossed.

[madfloridian]

52. It's amazing I have to keep defending my honesty.

That I have to keep saying the two articles are not lies.

And others can just say over and over that they are, and I just can't believe it is happening now.

[Hannah Bell]

55. mad, please note that for some reason, the mayor asked that the school district "give"

the property to the city.

what is this money the city is using for renovation? is it not the same money earmarked for renovation of *all* schools in the district, or is it some other, special pot?

where does school renovation money typically come from in nashville?

why did the district have to transfer title to the city?

is it a preliminary for another transfer to KIPP?

[AngryAmish]

78. It's a charter school --kill it.

Kill it.
Kill it.
Kill it.
Kill it.
Kill it.
Kill it.
Kill it.
Kill it.
Bill Gates is a billionaire.
Kill it.
Kill it.Kill it.
Kill it.
Kill it.
Kill it.

[Fire1]

79. Can't rec but I can still kick! Thanks Mad!! n/t

[MedicalAdmin]

82. Who is doing the renovation? How are they connected to KIPP?

And how much kickback is going to the mayor, someone he knows, a politcal ally, or corporate interest in "we will pay you after you leave office by offering you or your wife a high paying do nothing consultancy job?"Just curious.

And when do we start taking some of these corporate crooks and their political cronies out into a field on a dark night and doing what needs to be done to stop this type of behavior?

[sulphurdunn]

85. It is difficult to find exact data

on charter school failure rates, but it seems to be somewhere between 4 and 10 percent annually on a national basis, usually for failure to fulfill the terms of the charter or for financial mismanagement. What a charter school amounts to is a school that is not answerable to the same school board as other schools in its district, is not bound by continuing contracts or public employee benefit packages common to other public employees, or is run by a mayor or other elected official without any board oversight by the people who actually pay the freight. That freight can be considerable, especially in infrastructure costs and loss of general revenues for other schools. Furthermore, quantifiable data is emerging which shows no statistically significant academic improvement for these "public schools" as a model for educational reform.

So, considering the cost, the failure rate, the malfeasance and the general lack of quantifiable data supporting their superiority, I am at a loss to fathom any social benefit derived from these institutions that could not be more reliably and efficiently delivered by traditional public schools.

:smoke:

[Reader Rabbit]

98. +10,000

Thank you.

[ClarkUSA]

105. Do you have any data to back up your claims?

For example, this statement of yours doesn't appear to be true, according to the US Department of Education:

"What a charter school amounts to is a school that is not answerable to the same school board as other schools in its district"

US Department of Education:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9293423&mesg_id=9301907

[sulphurdunn]

134. I inadvertently

replied to this in an earlier post of yours. Please note that while the federal government giveth and taketh away about 7 percent of the national K-12 education budget, it does not dictate education policy to the states save in the matter of civil rights. No state is required by federal law to authorize any charter school and a federal definition of such is not an imprimitur.

[WinkyDink]

155. Some "charter school" FACTS:

"Charter schools receive public support but are not subject to many regulations that apply to conventional public schools."
http://www.theledger.com/article/20101012/NEWS/10125038/1410?Title=Ga-School-Districts-Want-Ruling-Tossed

"First, let’s acknowledge what charter schools are. They are publicly financed schools that are run by private – usually nonprofit – organizations. Sometimes they are independent, and sometimes they are part of larger charter school organizations or chains.

The primary argument that charter schools are public schools is that they are paid for out of government funds. While they do get most of their budgets from tax dollars, that is not enough to render them public schools. There are many other organizations that pay for operations with public funds but are still private organizations."
http://gothamschools.org/2010/03/26/are-charter-school-public-schools-i%E2%80%99m-afraid-not/

"More evidence is in that charter schools – at least on average – do no better than regular public schools.

Middle-school students who were selected by lottery to attend charter schools performed no better than their peers who lost out in the lottery and attended nearby public schools, according to a study funded by the federal government and released Tuesday.

This is the first large-scale randomized study to be conducted across multiple states, and it lends some fuel to those who say there is little evidence to back the drive for more charters."
(Like that "lottery" thing?)
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Education/2010/0629/Study-On-average-charter-schools-do-no-better-than-public-schools

"Do charter schools have admissions policies?
By law, charter schools must have a fair and open admissions process, conducting outreach and recruitment to all segments of the community they serve. When more students apply than can be accommodated, many charters use a lottery to randomly determine which students are accepted. Many charter schools also have waiting lists."
(Public schools MUST, BY LAW, ACCOMMODATE ALL STUDENTS; THERE CAN BE NO "WAITING LISTS.")
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:xKmOq45j770J:www.uscharterschools.org/pub/uscs_docs/o/faq.html+CHARTER+SCHOOLS+ARE+PUBLIC+SCHOOLS&cd=25&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

" it came as a bit of a shock to the community of educational reformers last year when a study by Stanford University’s Center for Research on Educational Outcomes (CREDO) found that 37 percent of charter schools produce academic results that are worse than public schools, while only 17 percent perform significantly better."
http://www.newsweek.com/2010/06/13/understanding-charter-schools.html

[madfloridian]

160. Good post, good links.

They receive public funding, which of course takes funds from true public schools....but they are mostly deregulated.

[WinkyDink]

208. Thank you. Of course, ClarkUSA has nothing to say now.

[ClarkUSA]

237. lol! Charter schools are indeed public schools in the eyes of the US Department of Education.

Read all about the PUBLIC CHARTER SCHOOLS PROGRAM (PCSP): http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/opepd/ppss/reports.html#charter

[WinkyDink]

257. You have a narrowing of definition to make a Jesuit blush.

[ClarkUSA]

236. You second source is an op-ed that's full of opinion but short on facts.

Nonetheless, the fact remains that charter schools are indeed public schools in the eyes of the US Department of Education. Read all about the PUBLIC CHARTER SCHOOLS PROGRAM (PCSP): http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/opepd/ppss/reports.html#charter

[WinkyDink]

259. Hey, you're the one who thinks Wikipedia is the Britannica.

[laughingliberal]

250. Thank you for those facts. I have read all of this information before but good to have it all ...

assembled in your post.

[defendandprotect]

197. How about some citizen lawsuits to stop ALL of this crap privatization???

[slay]

242. +1

if republicans - and even some dems - in power get their way - they will privatize EVERYTHING. they've been slowly privatizing these for-profit prisons for years already. not surprising they come for the schools next. hell Bush even came for our Social Security. maybe one day we'll fight back. sigh.. :(

[defendandprotect]

265. Where's Erin Brockovitch when you really need her .... ???

:)

[Jakes Progress]

206. Kick. Here's a thread with more information.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9302044&mesg_id=9305652

You know. People who actually know what they are talking about instead of MSM dupes and bandwagoneers.

[WinkyDink]

211. More on KIPP:

First of all, SOMEBODY (*coughGatescough*) has poured $$$ into Google on KIPP: it takes to about page 5 before ONE site NOT OF a KIPP school comes up in a Search.

But here it is, a report on KIPP-Lynn, MA:

"KIPP Lynn's teachers are not unionized, work an unusually long day, and are expected to respond to students phone calls in the evening. KIPP was founded by alumni of the national Teach For America (TFA) internship program, and many KIPP Lynn teachers are graduates of TFA. KIPP Lynn teachers are much younger than those in the rest of LPS: 88 percent are 40 or under, compared to 29 percent in LPS. Perhaps reflecting their age, KIPP teachers are far less likely to be licensed in their teaching assignment (26 percent, compared to 98 percent in LPS).2"

"Students are expected to adhere to a behavioral code, which includes speaking only when called on in class...."
http://management.ucsd.edu/faculty/seminars/papers/angrist.pdf

More:
http://www.edrev.info/essays/v12n3.pdf

http://www.scribd.com/doc/24518615/No-Excuses-A-Critique-of-the-Knowledge-Is-Power-Program-KIPP-within-Charter-Schools-in-the-USA

KIPP will take your money gladly:
http://www.givewell.org/united-states/education/top-charities/KIPP/donate

[Hannah Bell]

216. also note that the Fisher family (The Gap) funded the KIPP expansion to the tune

of $45 million, with the Walmart Waltons kicking in a few mil as well.

Besides that, KIPP takes the same government money the public schools take + more on top of that.

With this they buy slave teachers that work all day & all night & don't have labor protections -- & pay their managment the big bucks.

[ClarkUSA]

238. Charter schools are public schools in the eyes of the US Department of Education.

Read all about the PUBLIC CHARTER SCHOOLS PROGRAM (PCSP): http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/opepd/ppss/reports.html#charter

It follows that they would get public funding. What's the big deal? Why are some people whining about it?

I know of other public schools who've gotten far more to rebuild and renovate than that.

One in LA used up $578 million: http://abcnews.go.com/WN/public-school-los-angeles-named-robert-kennedy-expensive/story?id=11462095

I'm so OUTRAGED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[DeltaLitProf]

255. And hand grenades

. . . are pacification devices in the eyes of the Pentagon. So what. Wrong is wrong.

Again, I invite you to visit and to remain at a particular discussion board that would be more welcoming of your kind of thinker.

[slay]

241. I do not think privatizing education through so called "charter schools" is a good idea at all

we should fix our non-profit public schools - not fund a republican/corporate/for-profit take over of our school system. just because Bush fucked everything up with NCLB does not mean for-profit schools funded by tax payer money is a good idea - it's not.

if we would end these stupid wars and tax the rich at a much higher rate we'd have the money to fix our schools. hell legalize and tax pot and we can fix our schools. guess what - those in power don't want public schools fixed. where's the profit in that? they know these solutions are possible yet they don't ever talk about it.

i guess tricking people into fighting unwinnable wars not only in Afghanistan but the "War on Drugs" too is more of a priority (and makes those in power WAY more of a profit) than providing a good public education for the children in this country. it's a sad time we live in to have such advanced knowledge and such a corrupt government.

[ClarkUSA]

243. Only four states allow for-profit corporations to run public charter schools. The rest don't.

"Charter applicants may include local school districts, institutions of higher education, non-profit corporations, and, in some states, for-profit corporations. Wisconsin, California, Michigan, and Arizona allow for-profit corporations to manage charter schools."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_school

Are you saying that Wisconsin, California, Michigan, and Arizona are funding "a republican/corporate/for-profit take over of" their "school system"?

If you really mean that, then I'm guessing that the present/former/future Democratic governors of those states would disagree with you, as would the Democrats who send their children to public charter schools/magnet schools in those states. I know I do and I'm a liberal (some people here despise them, I know) who supports public schools of all kinds.

[slay]

248. Four states for now

i just don't see the logic in not putting money towards fixing our existing public schools. maybe you'll be right and they won't all go for-profit one day. i'm all for options and even though there are problems with our public schools - i prefer magnet programs and the like within traditional public schools rather than opening the door for charter schools which take away from the money for traditional public schools as pointed out in the original article. if someone wants to send their kid to a private school paid for with their money that is nicer/better than their traditional public school - sure, go for it. but no, can't say i'm a fan of charter schools funded with tax payer money.

*on edit - wow - i see you've really taken this thread personally as about half of ALL the responses are by YOU. bravo.

[ClarkUSA]

249. I can sympathize with your concerns but not convinced that charter schools are evil incarnate yet.

<< *on edit - wow - i see you've really taken this thread personally as about half of ALL the responses are by YOU. bravo. >>

Well, it's hard not to take it "personally" when one is repeatedly and personally attacked by some people for stating the simple truth that charter schools are public schools.

Anyway, thanks for the thoughtful, and above all, honest dialogue. It's refreshing.

[laughingliberal]

251. It has been 30 years of Reagan's 'starve the beast' tactic.

Underfund education then scream about the inevitable 'failing' system and open the door to schemes which will lead to privatization of the system.

[Jakes Progress]

271. And who would think reagan would get such help on DU.

[WinkyDink]

258. I don't care if KIPP is as public as Lady Godiva's ride. GOVERNMENT should strive to strengthen

the EXTANT public schools.

Oh, wait; maybe the MILITARISTIC NATURE of KIPP would not be ALLOWED? Maybe the HIRING OF STAFF UNEDUCATED IN THEIR "SUBJECTS" (but fresh from TfA) would not be ALLOWED? Maybe the excessively-long TEACHER DAYS (plus 24/7 accessibility by cell-phone) and non-union staffing would not be ALLOWED? Maybe the ignoring of STATE MANDATES would not be ALLOWED? Maybe placing pupil candidates on WAITING-LISTS would not be ALLOWED?

KIPP is nothing more than "Sit down, shut up, stand up straight, quiet in the hallways, now here's a cookie" "teaching" right out of 1955. It's discipline-, not learning-oriented.

I'm not against an orderly school; far from it. BUT there is no reason "charter" monies cannot be given to public (not charter-public) education for smaller class sizes, more staff, up-dated materials, and renovated infrastructures.

Follow the money. SOMEBODY is profiting from KIPP, and it isn't the greedy, ignorant, gold-bricking teachers' unions.
Yes, sarcasm there.

Don't bother, ClarkUSA; I will: "Charter schools are public schools. See: U.S. Department of Education."
Rinse, lather, repeat.

[madfloridian]

273. The "public charter school" is a specious argument.

They are public only in getting public money, AND if they are run and controlled by a public school board...NOT a private one.

For example the Pocono school that gave a church 4 million of taxpayer money for rent calls itself a public charter.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/6821

Doesn't even make sense.