Attention fellow straight people:

[Stinky The Clown]

There is nothing for our gay sisters and brothers if there is not full, unconditional equality. Incrementalism is just stalling. Making some token appointments to token job slots is stalling.

It is only when gay people are fully equal to YOU that the fight is over. Anything less than advocacy for THAT is insufficient.

How hard is that to understand?

[Autumn]

1. It's not hard to understand n/t

[Iggo]

2. Gay Rights are Civil Rights.

It don't get simpler than that.

[Dappleganger]

64. Exactly!

[csziggy]

129. +100000000000000000000

[EFerrari]

3. That's right. K&R

[myrna minx]

4. Hear hear.

:applause:

[Hosnon]

5. Right on. nt.

[Scuba]

6. Right-on. Thanks.

[shireen]

7. wear purple on Oct 20th

in support of GLBTs and in memory of the young men who recently took their lives.

It's being spread like wildfire all over the internet. Let's see how many people respond.

[Warpy]

18. I look like hell in purple so I don't own any

so mine has to be a purple patchwork bag I use for my knitting, drop spindle, and other things I take with me when I fear boredom.

It'll be there, though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYE8Vjih2cs

[tavalon]

141. Just a purple piece of cloth tied around your arm works

and even works better because people might ask why?

[supernova]

27. I signed up

I LOVE purple and it's decent idea. I'm curious too, how many will respond.

[Dappleganger]

65. It's all over FB.

Send an invitation to all of your friends...I did.

[alphafemale]

112. Here's a link

http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=122462384475928

[muffin1]

187. Thanks...will do!

Gonna try to find something purple for hubby, too. :hi:

[Altoid_Cyclist]

115. Thank you for the information.

This is the first mention of it that I've seen.

Luckily, I have one purple shirt and I will wear it in memory of my deceased older brother as well as all of the other people who deserved so much better.

[shireen]

118. I'm very sorry to hear about your brother.

I can't begin to imagine that pain. My heart goes out to you and your family. :hug:

[Altoid_Cyclist]

199. Thank you.

He was a very good person who tried to help anyone that he thought could use some help. It didn't matter if that meant a place to stay, help in locating work, substance abuse problems or whatever someone needed help with.

It would be a large understatement to say that people in this area made his life difficult for most of his life. At least he was happier once he left here. He just didn't get enough time to make up for the treatment he had to endure for so long.

Too many people still don't realize what it was (is) like for my brother and others in the LGBT community.

[AwakeAtLast]

124. My favorite color, added it to my calendar.

Very easy for me to do to show my support. Thanks for posting!

[awoke_in_2003]

136. the only thing purple I own...

are a pair of hanes boxer/briefs. I will wear them, but nobody will know :)

[Iggo]

150. I don't own anything purple, but I do love to shop.

B-)

[AnnieBW]

152. At least it's not a Friday

I hate to be mistaken for a Ravens fan.

[_ed_]

8. The problem is that

too many people care about the man (Obama) and the party instead of the issues. The leader of the Democratic Party in 2010 holds a bigoted view of gay marriage. It makes me sick, and I get even sicker when people want to give him a free pass on his marriage bigotry.

[Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel]

111. +1

:hi:

[jtrockville]

9. Yes, it really IS just that simple.

Equality.

[SammyWinstonJack]

10. K&R!

:thumbsup:

[blondeatlast]

11. Yup. nt

[frogmarch]

12. Absolutely! K&R

[pinboy3niner]

13. Must-see: Great vid of Rep. Lewis at the Atlanta Pride Festival

Impassioned words from a true, battle-scarred champion of civil rights. The vid, from Sunday, is less than 3 1/2 minutes in length:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x514077

K&R

[Deep13]

14. Incrementalism is slow progress, not stalling.

A gay rights superbill is not going to pass. Ending DADT and passing ENDA are important steps toward full equality. Right now in over half the states one can be lawfully fired or denied housing because of orientation. As a result, there is a real pressure to stay in the closet. Granted, full equality is the ultimate goal.

[FedUp_Queer]

94. I think MLK said it best (though he was speaking of my Black Sisters and Brothers)

It is obvious today that America has defaulted on this promissory note insofar as her citizens of color are concerned. Instead of honoring this sacred obligation, America has given the Negro people a bad check which has come back marked "insufficient funds." But we refuse to believe that the bank of justice is bankrupt. We refuse to believe that there are insufficient funds in the great vaults of opportunity of this nation. So we have come to cash this check -- a check that will give us upon demand the riches of freedom and the security of justice. We have also come to this hallowed spot to remind America of the fierce urgency of now. This is no time to engage in the luxury of cooling off or to take the tranquilizing drug of gradualism. Now is the time to rise from the dark and desolate valley of segregation to the sunlit path of racial justice. Now is the time to open the doors of opportunity to all of God's children. Now is the time to lift our nation from the quicksands of racial injustice to the solid rock of brotherhood.

[csziggy]

130. That is a lesson that the gay community should take to heart

The Women's movement didn't and we are now losing ground because we could not get those last few states to endorse the Equal Rights Amendment. So now I root for you, because equal rights are for everyone.

"The tranquilizing drug of gradualism" is more like an opiate for the oppressed.

[awoke_in_2003]

137. +1000. nt

[MannyGoldstein]

176. The fierce urgency of 'Your time will come, maybe' nt

[Deep13]

180. I respectfully disagree with King on one detail.

"Now" (the 1960s) was not the time to end discrimination. 1865 was the time to do it and the country thought it did with the reconstruction amendments. Actually, the Constitution never should have been ratified with slavery intact. The reason the 1960s became "the time" is because for the first time it was politically possible to do so.

We are on the verge of that possibility with gay rights and we should do everything possible to press the issue. Still, we ought not turn our noses up at partial progress. We are certainly better off with ENDA than we are without it. If people can be free from discrimination in employment and housing, they will feel more comfortable coming out of the closet. The more people do so, the more heteros will see that it is no big deal to be gay. With ENDA, people will feel more free to get involved in pressing for further rights tahn they do with the threat of poverty hanging over their heads.

As it is, too many people feel perfectly free to discriminate, harass and hypocritically moralize to gay people as though there were something monsterous about being gay. Human garbage like that asshole running for NY governor still feel free to impose their barbaric religious prejudices on everyone else. If a state like CA can pass Prop.8, then a state like Ohio can do the same thing (2004) with about half of the Kerry voters also voting for bigotry. I'm just saying it is still an uphill fight. Even the "fierce advocate" won't commit to ending DADT except in rhetoric.

Again, I agree that gay people are morally entitled to the entire loaf of bread. That being the case, they and those who support their cause should not hesitate to eat a few slices as they become available. After all, it's your loaf and society had to right to with hold any of it.

[Warpy]

15. You've got that right.

and trying to keep any segment of fellow Americans less than equal is not only unconstitutional, it's morally reprehensible.

We're not free until we're all free. We're not equal until we're all equal.

Don't kid yourself about what the right is doing. "States rights" has always been a rallying cry to be able to put citizen rights up for a popular vote, to be stripped from any minority by the majority.

[Ohio Joe]

16. well said - k&r - nt

[11 Bravo]

17. Exactly! I can be as pragmatic as the next guy, but basic human rights are NOT ...

open to debate. Anything other than complete equality is unacceptable.

[MuseRider]

19. Thank you.

This needs to be repeated daily or more often until everyone understands the difference between "ponies" and civil rights. One would think it would be easily apparent but it seems a stretch for some.

[jaxx]

20. Calling the appointments of LGBT individuals 'tokens' is wrong.

Why would you demean them like that?


Here is a list of LGBT people who have been appointed:

LGBT Appointments in the Obama-Biden Administration

http://www.glli.org/presidential

[Radical Activist]

28. It's offensive.

It implies they're unqualified.

And progress is progress, even if it doesn't happen all at once.

[POAS]

31. Why would a poster on a Democratic site

feel it is ok to demean the GLBT community the way the OP has done?

Those people earned their jobs by hard work and overcoming in a society that often demeans and ridicules them. To have a poster bring such disparagement to DU is offensive.

[jaxx]

34. I just don't understand it.

Guess it shows there is still a lot of prejudice out there. Sad.

[muffin1]

184. Fer Christ's sake

the OP is saying that Obama's ACTIONS have been 'tokens', not the actual PEOPLE who were appointed. But then again, I think you know that. I am a 'fellow straight' person and ally of the gay community, and we are all fed up with 'people on Democratic sites' defending Obama's inaction toward FULL EQUAL RIGHTS.

[HughMoran]

35. It's despicable

[Stinky The Clown]

32. Is your e-mail working?

Mine's been slow today. I was wondering if anyone else was having issues with e.mail today.

[jaxx]

36. It works.

[Stinky The Clown]

40. I thought so

Just wanted to check.

I care about you.

[jaxx]

42. I'd rather you cared about my sister and not refer to lgbt jobs as tokens.

But nice try.

[Stinky The Clown]

44. Thanx

[PopSixSquish]

46. Yeah, I Doubt the Deputy COS for FLOTUS Considers Himself a Token

nor the Director of Operations for the Office of the VP, the Deputy Assistant AGs, the US Distric Court Judge, the member of the COE, the US Marshall or the numerous members of the White House staff on the list do either.

You can criticze the President and the administration and rightly so on a number of LGBT issues but let's not demean the good people who work for the administration in the process...

[Stinky The Clown]

47. To you, Jaxx, to Hugh, to PAOS, to RA . . . . and anyone else in this subthread I missed:

None of you are so dumb as to have missed the point of the OP and the comment about tokens. You can parse it all you wish, but no one who knows you thinks for a moment you failed to get the point. None of you are that dumb. I understand the point of your subthread. Have fun with it. But recognize it also makes very clear that you have no better argument so you're left with this silliness about parsing the word "tokens".

Have at it, but don't expect that anyone thinks you failed to get the meaning in the OP.

Have a really fun rest of your days. :hi:

[jaxx]

56. Token jobs from token appointments isn't parsing....it's right there

in black and white. I find it to be demeaning to the LGBT people who got those jobs. I also remember that the 'token _____' is still tossed around too in impolite society. I really don't need a better argument to fight for the dignity of those who are so easily brushed aside.

[Stinky The Clown]

59. Hahahahaha

OMG

Hahahahaha

[fascisthunter]

88. lol

nice try

[NMMNG]

106. My wife and I are both lesbians

We're not the least bit offended by Stinky's use of "token". Obama's appointments are very much tokens. He put a few LGBT people on his staff rather than doing anything that actually advances our rights. Then we get people throwing those token appointments in our faces every time we point out the fact that the Obama Administration hasn't done a damn thing to advance our rights. (And don't even bother me with that stupid list of 30 supposed accomplishments that was just another bunch of little crumbs which ultimately did nothing real--as usual.)

[Number23]

109. Wait, so this is what prompted this OP?

A list of gay appointments to the current administration being lauded by a gay organizations? THIS is what led to these people being called "tokens" by this OP??

This was not a list released by the Obama administration. This was a list created by a gay political group wanting to highlight that the government had prominent gays within its ranks. But because it doesn't fit in with the DU narrative of "Obama hates gay people" this list is not only dismissed but the people appointed are maligned as "tokens?"

I don't get this. I truly do not get the steadfast, hard headed DETERMINATION to pretend that this administration is hostile to gay Americans. Between this, the comments I've seen here castigating Obama's role in DOMA/DADT as somehow being worse than the man who signed them into law because you could just "tell that Bill Clinton didn't REALLY want to sign DADT and DOMA into law" and the outrage over "co-opting" the name of a program aimed at gay teenagers by a man who once referred to himself as a "field Negro" (damn y'all! Talk about co FUCKING opting!) I don't get it.

[SkyDaddy7]

117. I agree! It is just more OVER THE TOP rhetoric...

That really does nothing to better the cause of equality for all...And the delusional idea that equality does not happen via "Incrementalism" is yet another thing that shows either a lack of knowledge about struggles for equality or someone who simply has an axe to grind.

All struggles for equality happen via "Incrementalism"! It is just reality. If DADT was ended for good right now and everyone was allowed to marry who they love there would still be further steps needed! "Incrementalism" is reality and some folks simply need to deal with reality and stop acting like President Obama is a god who could stop all discrimination but chooses to watch it continue.

SAD!

[ThatsMyBarack]

21. I understand it completely.

It's something I think about every day.

[sailor65]

22. Rec, but how many of us

do you think actually don't get it? I think most of us have been saying the same thing. Unfortunately, the President, through his words and actions (To include INactions) gives approval and validation to those your post is aimed at.

[Stinky The Clown]

23. I think you're on the right track in answering your own question.

The president's position on gay issues is just plain wrong. Defending it is defending the indefensible. It is to those defenders, and those who remain silent on the issue, either out of ignorance or apathy, this post is aimed.

[_ed_]

24. Bingo

If you don't support marriage EQUALITY, you are a BIGOT, plain and simple.

[TorchTheWitch]

206. except that's not what you did

"Attention Straight People" tells you exactly who the post was aimed at, and frankly it was an insulting OP seeing that straight DUer's DO get it and have always been vocal about it. Duer's that don't agree that GLBT people deserve equal rights get tombstoned because that opinion is not welcome here.

Now you're trying to qualify your OP after the fact by claiming it was addressed to specific people for a specific reason when it very clearly wasn't. If it was your intention to address those specific people and why then that's what you should have done instead of insulting all the straight people here that have always understood that GLBT people are entitled to the same rights as anyone else. Quite a number of us straights have friends and family who are GLBT and have suffered right along with them... just because we're straight doesn't mean we don't get it and are indifferent especially here at DU.

[Dreamer Tatum]

25. Did you just now figure that out?

Sorry, don't need that lecture. I knew that a while back.

[Stinky The Clown]

30. Yeah, I just got it a few minutes ago, so I rushed to post about it

:eyes:

[librechik]

26. EVERYTHING about this administration is stalling. When are we going to have a better chance

for CHANGE-- but nooooo--just delay and compromise and hope things don't come out or get worse. This is unacceptable.

[Prism]

29. Democrats refuse to recognize their role in LGBT suicide.

It's interesting, with the recent media interest in LGBT youth suicide (something I've been watching up close and personal for a long time now), people seem to think "Well, Republicans and Christians are obviously the responsible ones for this culture."

Even though we have a President who says same-sex relationships are lesser and less worthy of recognition.

Even though we have countless partisans who call our equality a pony, a petulant demand, almost a silliness to ask for at all.

Even though we have apologists who relegate our civil rights to an insignificance by constantly explaining that it simply isn't important enough for a President and Congress to address at this time.

Homophobic culture that nurtures this deep despair in our youth didn't arrive on a Republican and Christian wind. It is an American problem, with plenty of people on "our side" who are hostile, dismissive, and denigrating towards our community, forever minimizing our demands, our lives, and our rights.

And they will take no responsibility for their role. They will refuse to see how their actions, words, and defenses contribute to the feeling of worthlessness in LGBT youth across this country.

We are told, every single day, even from our so-called, self-described allies that our equality just isn't that important, that our lives just aren't that bad, that our rights just aren't that urgent.

And then they'll turn around and scream that it was all the Republicans' and Christians' doing.

Some people really need a mirror.

[sailor65]

49. That's an interesting point.

I posted the other day about how young Mr. Clementi's situation painted a bullseye on his back, based on current society. If the powers that be had lived up to even some of their promises, I wonder whether his suicide might have been averted? He certainly might have had less to feel afraid of.

[defendandprotect]

33. Unfortunately, for 1,000 years or more, Christianity has been teaching homphobia.....

Organized patriarchal religion continues to preach and teach hatred and intolerance

for homosexuals.

Not unlike the fact that the Vatican continues to refuse to acknowledge the full

personhood of females as it acknowledges the full personhood of males!

Women and homosexuals are still on the Vatican's list of enemies!

[cliffordu]

37. Token appointments.....

I would bet every one of those people are more qualified for their jobs than anything you've ever been qualified to do.

Except slime people who are in "token appointments"

kinda beneath even you.

[Stinky The Clown]

45. Cliff, you can pick at all the nits you wish, but you can't convince me you failed to . . . .

. . . . get the point I was making. You can parse what I said all you wish, but you simply are not that dumb. I know you're not. Your acting that way to try to make your weak point as strong as you are able. And if that's all you've got, you do the best you can with it.

But please, let's not pretend you didn't get the meaning. You surely did.

Have a great day.

We're done for now,

[cliffordu]

50. Buh BYE!!!

:hi:

[Stinky The Clown]

54. I hope you're not offended.

:hi:

[cliffordu]

60. I am offended only by people I care about.

You, not so much.

[Stinky The Clown]

61. Hahaha

Very snappy, there!

[cliffordu]

62. The meds have me firing on two cylinders instead of the usual one.

[DirkGently]

38. It is not.

[lightningandsnow]

39. Correction:

it is only when gay, bi, AND TRANS people are fully equal to you that the fight is over.

The fight does not end with same-sex marriage and DADT.

[boppers]

161. +1

I'd take it further, though, to GLBTQ.

Some of us are quite happy to be non-gendered, or poly-gendered.

[asdjrocky]

41. I understand Stinky.

After all, I'm straight, not narrow.

[ck4829]

43. I agree. Only when a gay person has all the rights as me as a straight, then the fight is never over

What is freedom and liberty without unfettered and free access to them?

Nothing.

K&R.

[treestar]

48. so how do we get the voters to understand?

that is the key.

And why not take what progress we can get, to build on? Why give up in a huff instead?

Makes no sense.

Black people could have said the same thing in 1950 or so. They kept working at it. It did take time. It's still taking time. That's reality - why is that hard to understand?

[Stinky The Clown]

Who was giving up in a huff?

I missed the giving up part.

I also missed the huff.

[EFerrari]

57. Nobody is giving up "in a huff:. But the White House should understand

that when people by pass you on the way to their goal, your job is in jeopardy. That's just the way groups work.

[treestar]

66. How is Obama's job in jeopardy except from the right wing and the

stupidity of voters, most of whom don't even care about gay rights? Don't get where the supposed political leverage is coming from here.

All the rage at Obama over this, as if there were no Republicans and Republicans had no hope of winning and as if there were some large left wing party out there threatening to take the Presidency from the Democrats. It's doesn't work to make a fantasy world and pretend it is real.

And I repeat for the zillionth time, why are the voters let off so easy? And how will you get their votes by being bitter towards them over it?

[TriMera]

75. For the zillionth time. Why do you keep

advocating that civil rights should be up for a popular vote? No one has ever gotten their civil rights that way. What makes you think that you get to vote on my rights?

[Stinky The Clown]

84. Peopple are sufficiently wise to know you're correct

I completely agree with you, but please don't allow this thread to devolve into one that gets locked.

Thanks!


:hi:

[mkultra]

164. if thats the case, then i wont worry about voting to support it

since it isn't up for popular vote eh.

[TriMera]

196. Do as you wish...

Anyone who believes that civil rights should be voted on by the public isn't going to vote for those rights anyway. You're born with these rights, but you think you should be able to cast a vote for whether or not other people get those same rights. Just what is it that makes you think you should have that kind of power?

[mkultra]

208. that would be the constitution and a strong grip on reality

nobody is going to wave a magic wand and make things equal. No dictatorial decree. No illumination from God.

The fact remains that the constitution does not protect sexual orientation so to achieve it will require a popular vote of either the citizens or their representatives. How else do your propose we accomplish the goal genius?

people who think there should be a vote on the matter are just looking for a way to accomplish the goal. If you don't know your enemies from your friends than you truly are going to be lost for decades.

[glitch]

134. Not just your job.

Your legacy. :scared:

[ProfessorGAC]

51. Seems Like Such A "Well, Duh", Doesn't It?

I never can grasp how assuring rights someone else doesn't already enjoy affects anyone who does enjoys them.

If you're already benefitting from a full slate of rights, someone else getting them doesn't diminish your rights.

And besides, they're RIGHTS not privileges.
GAC

[independent_voter]

52. If i took that attitude toward the H-1b visa/outsourcing issue, my game would be over

and yes, it DOES mean discrimination for us, there are plenty of H-1b only jobs ads

[truedelphi]

53. It's pretty easy for most people. And studies show that each younger

Generation is even more accepting of offering full status to the LGBT crowd.

So eventually, unless there is a RW militant pro"Christianity" government installed (Not all that impossible, of course) the liberal viewpoint on this should win.

[EFerrari]

55. We're pretty much at the tipping point already.

All but the Bush 26ers or so believe that gay couples should have the same rights as straight couples. Some still call it civil union while others are fine with marriage. The White House is behind the curve.

[truedelphi]

58. When I think of the WH, I think of taht old canard

"When the people shall lead, the leaders will follow."

We all just need to stay filled with determination.

[slay]

63. Agreed

hopefully pot smokers will be the next group to have the same rights as alcohol drinkers. But yes, fully equal, same rights as everyone else. No exceptions.

[NJmaverick]

67. Don't you dare presume to lecture me

you don't have that right

[superduperfarleft]

68. Well, clearly some of you need it.

If it doesn't apply to you, why are you so bothered by it?

[NJmaverick]

69. Clearly how? No one needs that lecture here at DU

Who needed to be lectured?

[superduperfarleft]

72. If it doesn't apply to you, why are you so bothered by it? n/t

[NJmaverick]

74. You didn't answer my question

[superduperfarleft]

76. I did. I just chose not to answer until I got an answer to mine. n/t

[NJmaverick]

77. I am not going to waste my time with you

you failed to answer my question, and worse you keep repeating questions that were already answered.


good day

[superduperfarleft]

78. Figures. n/t

[Stinky The Clown]

80. I appreciate your comments, but please be careful

I don't want this thread locked.

[ZombieHorde]

133. Really? You missed the pragmistism posts, the pony posts, the

magic wand posts, the he's only been in office for so many years posts, etc.?

[muffin1]

189. Anyone who tells gay folks

to 'just be patient' needs to hear it. The gay community needs our support now more than ever. No one is asking people to solve all of the problems facing gay folks - it would just be nice to hear some people say that they empathize with the sentiment that full equal rights needs to be addressed NOW.

If you don't believe that is the case, then why not stay away from these threads? Why do some people want to pour salt into the wounds of the oppressed?

[leftstreet]

79. Oh please. Blue Doggies lecture everyone here every fucking day

At least the OP is an issue of human rights

[Stinky The Clown]

82. Please let's not get this thread locked.

Thanks! :hi:

[leftstreet]

87. The mods won't lock it

They'll just slice/dice stuff if they need to

It's a good thread

:hi:

[YOY]

81. Oh Mav! You're the best!

Awesome really!

The awesomest!

The super awesomest!!!

[Stinky The Clown]

83. Hi!

Please don't get this thread locked. Let it not devolve as so often happens.

Thanks!

:hi:

[liberation]

97. Dare I say, "bestest?"

He has some competition in the "concern" front though, they are trying to outdo each other with the red herring fishing expeditions in this thread today.

LOL

;-)

[YOY]

116. I'll dare if you won't!

He really is the bestest of the bestest!

[QC]

153. Sometimes at night I touch myself under the covers and think about him. n/t

[YOY]

174. Who knew the misuse of the word "strawman" could psychologically trigger an orgasm!

Even in a person who has never had one before!

Soon we'll use him to cure cancer!

[Zenlitened]

143. Irony meter busted, broken beyond repair for ever and all time!

:rofl:

[mrs_p]

70. i've understood that from a very young age

it's not hard for those of us brought up by "bleeding heart librul commies" like my dear ol' mum...

[Joe Fields]

71. Not hard to understand, but it doesn't happen that way in real life.

Some things take time. This is one of those things.

You DO understand that, don't you?

[Jamastiene]

73. Thank you.

:hug:

K&R

[Eyerish]

85. K&R!

[JoeyT]

86. Agree 100%

And isn't it strange how the people that are objecting to the use of the word "token" aren't GLBT, but people that are enraged someone might be criticizing the president.

Apparently using the word "token" is a terrible slur towards GLBT activists, but actually using GLBT people as a shield to try to slow criticism while you refuse to try for and/or actively block progress is perfectly acceptable.

[Stinky The Clown]

90. It boggles the mind.

I love watching the twisting and turning one must go through when reality is not on one's side.

[jaxx]

191. I object to the word token.

And as for your smear about I'm not LGBT....no I'm not.
But my sister is a gay transsexual so you're way off base with that nonsense. Now do you want to talk tokens about her?

Apparently the work token is acceptable to you, but I can't figure out why. It's a slur, which is how it was used. I don't care if you don't like the President, but I'll be damned if I'll sit by and shut up about people putting down LGBT jobs that they worked hard to get.

I think you owe a lot of us an apology for that slam. Maybe you ought to know who you're talking about before you go off on them and project your idea of who they are.

[muffin1]

193. My best friend for the last twenty years (who is gay)

uses the same word 'token' all the time to describe President Obama. Does he owe someone an apology, too?

[muffin1]

200. Too late to edit - meant President Obama's actions. nt

[jaxx]

201. Whoa!!

[muffin1]

203. I hope you noticed my edit later further downthread.

My friend calls Obama's ACTIONS 'token'. If the 'whoa' was for something else, feel free to elaborate.

[jaxx]

205. Yes, I see that was added.

So it's the actions, not the President that is the token. I'm not sure why anything has to be discredited as being token, but it's your right to think as you wish.

[fascisthunter]

89. this straight man gets it

good thread

:thumbsup:

[bertman]

91. Tell it, Stinky!! Rec. nt

[Starry Messenger]

92. It seems so easy to understand.

After two years of fighting the same people on this issue, I've come to think that they know it deep down too and think it will interfere with their priorities if the party focuses on GBLT equality. I've given up trying to move them an inch on this. They are defending their privilege and will not be budged.

[me b zola]

93. K&R

[laughingliberal]

95. K & R nt

[terrya]

96. Thank you.

From a gay guy.

[Stinky The Clown]

99. You're welcome.

From a not gay guy.

:hi:

[Greyhound]

98. Was an egalitarian society not the unrealized goal of our first revolution.

That this (and so many others) issue is even debated on a supposedly progressive board indicates how badly and how often we have dropped the ball.
:kick: & R

[liberation]

154. No, our first (and only) revolution was about taxation.

You are thinking of the French revolution, which took part around the same time but in a different continent.

[Greyhound]

165. No it wasn't. The Acts were the catalyst but it was about having no say in how we were run.

It is true that taxation was the sole reason for a few of those that ended up supporting (reluctantly) the revolution, but for the majority it was anger that British Citizens could be treated so unfairly by their Sovereign and then brutalized for noticing.

An excellent recommendation; http://www.powells.com/biblio/1-9780395083703-0">Paul Revere and the world he lived in by Esther Forbes.

[liberation]

168. Sure, if it makes you feel better...

I was lucky enough to get my history from actual historians, not novelist slash children's writers. I like fact, not fiction.

I assume you don't grasp the logical dissonance that is the mainstream narrative created in this country regarding our founding revolution, which pretty much involves slave owners yearning to be free... I can't think of few institutions as "brutal" as slavery.

So, no. "Equality" was not one of the main concerns behind our revolution. It makes for better Hollywood material though... than focusing on the real undercurrents that led to our revolution, which were of the economic and financial persuasions for the most part. I'll give you that.


Cheers.

[Greyhound]

170. It is not a novel, nor is it in any way fictional. The book is thoroughly

cited and footnoted to within an inch of its life. You also forgot to mention her Pulitzer Prize.

I recommended it because I wrongly assumed you might be interested in a first-person accounting of a fascinating life. The foolish notion that loyal British subjects fought a continual series of wars over 40 years for their crown and then simply decided to break away from the greatest empire on earth because their taxes were too high was never correct and has not been considered valid by "actual" historians for decades.

I'm sorry to have intruded on your 8th grade American History class education with a somewhat less pedantic piece.

In the context of that time, both the DofI and The Constitution were wildly radical documents that taken together clearly show their intent as well as acknowledge their failure to realize it. It was and should still be the goal. But of course, that isn't pragmatic.
:hi:

[The Doctor.]

100. Taking the obvious to an Art Form.

It really doesn't get simpler than that, equality for all.

Meanwhile, I still love irritating haters.

[MrScorpio]

101. Incrementalism isn't "stalling", it's PROGRESS

Because, PROGRESS is way that full equality has always been achieved in America... PROGRESS is the way that every other group who sought to achieve full equality has always expected it to happen and demanded it to happen. PROGRESS happened when they picked their battles in order to win the war. When they won those battles, it gave them something to look back to and say that, not only was it worth it, but full equality can be achieved by winning more battles.

When you defame everyone who has achieved PROGRESS as "tokens", you defame the hard fought work that was taken to achieve that PROGRESS. If you tell each of these people that they're nothing but tokens, do you think that they'll actually believe you? http://www.glli.org/programs/presidential Or how about these people? http://www.glli.org/out_officials/view_all

This All-or-Nothing-Right-Now attitude, is anything, if it is counter productive. Because you disregard the hard fought gains already made, the momentum that's been established and everyone who has sacrificed to make it happen.

In the struggle for African-Americans to achieve full equality, you should remember that the civil rights leaders of the day had always described that struggle as one of achieving PROGRESS. They always encouraged us to keep our "eyes on the prize" to "climb to the top of the mountaintop" and never told us that just because we didn't get the prize that day or had reached the summit that day, we were just "stalling".

Well, since this is still America and in this country that's how full equality has been achieved for others, I see no reason to expect it to be different for anyone else.

Because PROGRESS is what WORKS!

Taking the easy way out and stating that a new way, the All-or-Nothing-Right-Now method of achieving full equality, is nice semantics and all... But it's really childish and unrealistic hogwash.

I say it's hogwash because you really don't know how to make what you're demanding to happen actually happen. It's hogwash because you defame anyone who has achieved PROGRESS up to this point as "tokens". It's hogwash because you're making this all about the people who are around today, instead of those who are coming after us, which has always been the hallmark of a true civil rights struggle.

It's hogwash because everyone knows that All-or-Nothing-Right-Nowism in NOT how it's going to happen in America.

It's actually going to happen THROUGH PROGRESS, because that's the only way to really make it stick.

So, I'm sorry, Stinky, I'm understanding what's going on quite a bit differently.

[Stinky The Clown]

102. Hi

:hi:

[MrScorpio]

103. Hi!

[political_Dem]

108. [phone].

[walldude]

110. So how long? How long should it take?

I keep hearing "increments" and things like "we have to wait till after the election. Of course that was 4 elections ago but whatever right? They can wait. For progress. :rofl: There is no "progress". Have you not been watching the news? Reading the Blogs? It's getting worse not better. Yes we made some slight progress. But now we are seeing bullying and suicides on the up, that is not a sign that gays are feeling more secure. Civil rights for the GLBT community are never going to "progress". They are going to have to be rammed down the throats of half of America. America is going to have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st Century.


DU has seemed to have lost it's empathy. I'm not gay so I have to trust the GLBT community to tell me how they feel about certain things, and I trust that they are telling the truth. I have yet to find a single gay person who is happy with the progress or the "increments". So it's my duty as an American to stand behind them and help them achieve their goals.


Let me leave you with this:

Today a Federal Judge in California overturned DADT as unconstitutional. I thought AWESOME!! FINALLY, and then I read this:

"U.S. District Judge Virginia Phillips in California rejected the administration's request to limit her ruling to only military personnel who are members of the Log Cabin Republicans, the organization that sued to overturn the policy."

The Obama Administration requested that the ruling only apply to Log Cabin Republicans because they were the ones who sued. So how should the GLBT community feel about that? Maybe they should just be patient... :rofl: :rofl:

[MrScorpio]

122. The only realistic answer is that it will take as long as it will take

Only a defeatist gives up after a set back.

A realistic warrior looks at that setback as the learning experience that it is and uses it to create a winning battle plan.

Not I, or anyone else is telling you that gays should be happy with the state of things today. That is such a ridiculous thing to imply.

What is being said is that anything worthwhile takes time and hard work to get it done right.

I, for one, refuse to let setbacks today dampen my desire and expectation that full equality will be achieved for all. The same should expected by anyone who truly cares about full equality as well..

Every victory is to be celebrated and built upon as steps leading to the ultimate goal. To decry those progressively achieved victories as unworthy, because the ultimately goal wasn't yet achieved, is dismissive and ungrateful for the hard work and dedication that it took by those who have achieved those victories.

Just because it hasn't happened all at once doesn't mean that it won't happen at all.

This is a struggle, not a sweepstakes.... and struggles are ultimately gauged by the PROGRESS that is made or lost.

You celebrate the court decision in California, as we all do, as the victory as it is. But if you take this All-Or-Nothing-Right-Now tack that the OP seems to want to imply, then you have no recourse buy to DISMISS it, because it didn't instantly result in full equality. You disregard the progress that's happening right before your very eyes, because you equate a setback in another arena has having a negative impact on the progress made in others.

All you're doing is running around in circles.

Not recognizing victories that are made is unsympathetic and ungrateful to those who have made them... And ultimately self-defeating as well.

[EFerrari]

142. You know, half the black press was against integration.

They argued, much as you do, that progress is incremental. They were wrong, too.

And any victories in this struggle belong to the gay community, not to the government they have had to fight and still have to fight every single day, not to the politicians that try to play them like violins or to any one else. Claiming credit for their work is inexcusable.

[MrScorpio]

144. But, how did it come?

Through hard fought progress over a space of many years, right?

And in such a way that it can never be taken away correct?

There is NO quick fix for this thing.

A victory for full equality is a victory for everyone.

[EFerrari]

146. It was too late for a "quick fix" a couple of hundred years ago.

And nothing is permanent. The other side will always be trying to chip away at our rights in any way they can. We don't counter them by joining them in chipping away at what human dignity demands.

[MrScorpio]

147. You've just conceded that the struggle is everlasting... And it is for everyone

It's give and take and one wins by being stronger and more persistent than the other guy.

The Arc of the Universe Is Long But It Bends Towards Justice ...

We don't do anyone a service by disregarding hard fought victories, calling them pointless and classifying people who have made achievements as being mere "tokens".

It's insulting and offensive.

[EFerrari]

148. I think you're conflating gay people who have fought to be in government

with the politicians who use them as tokens. The accomplishment of one is not obviated by the opportunism of the other, as just about any minority person knows full well.

[MrScorpio]

149. And you're disregarding that LGTBI people who are serving in Government are doing IT OPENLY

That, in itself, is a hard fought victory.

Of course, it's not the end all and be all and no one is stating that it is.

It's one step in a path towards eventual progress.

You don't take over a country all at once, you take it away one street and one hill at a time.

[liberation]

155. That is all very nice and all...

... but the fact that in the XXI century people are still having to fight for their civil rights in our country is something to be ashamed of, nothing to be proud. Regardless of all the hand waving justifications and excuses.

[MrScorpio]

159. And that's why the struggle is ongoing

Because it IS shameful and it IS nothing to be proud of and it IS worth the goal of eventual FULL EQUALITY.

If you don't know where you've been, it's pretty hard to tell where you're going.

[EFerrari]

158. No, I'm clearly not doing that. n/t

[Dragonfli]

126. "the administration's request to limit her ruling

to only military personnel who are members of the Log Cabin Republicans"

That is some fierce advocating, just for the wrong side.

How is this incrementalism?
How is this administration an ally in this fight for human rights?

I guess I am too dumb to get it. Perhaps I should admit my stupidity and adopt the same approach to better help the administration in 2012 by advocating for his re-election the same way, by requesting his term be limited to one, that will make me HIS ally according to this twisted logic.

I do so want to learn to be as smart as him, emulation may be the key.

[Mimosa]

128. Walldude, you are so genuine in your dedication to equal rights...

I assumed you were indeed part of the GLBT community. You really understand. And you express yourself so well.

[walldude]

198. I am by proxy...

My 16 year old son... although he hasn't come out yet, I already know :)

[EFerrari]

202. Well done, Dad.

So very well done. :)

[Number23]

113. I can't believe that there are people so determined to cast Obama as anti-gay

that they would CELEBRATE this OP calling these people "tokens." GODDAMNED tokens!

Do any of these people know how hurtful that word is? And this was not the Obama administration that released this list. This was a gay political group that did it. They obviously are pleased to be represented within government and want to encourage MORE gay participation which I would think that everyone here would support wholeheartedly.

How the HELL does calling these people "tokens" advance anything??? I DO NOT GET THIS.

[glitch]

139. What are the incremental gains?

And it can't be incrementally lesser losses, that would be cheating.

[MrScorpio]

145. The gains cane only been seen when you look at where you were then...

And judge it against where you are now.

Take a look a what has happened since the beginning of the struggle and look at the victories and defeats in that struggle and what impact those moments have had on the overall progress of the struggle.

No one is talking about cheating, merely the true nature of necessary struggle.

[liberation]

156. "necessary struggle"

WTF? People have to earn their civil rights now?

[MrScorpio]

160. When you take something that's rightfully belongs to you, you EARN it.

Sitting around and complaining that it hasn't happened yet only benefits those that have what belongs to you and are not yet forced to give it up.

[liberation]

167. That makes no sense...

... I understand you're trying to appeal to the whole emotional nice sounding side of things, but do you even realize what you are implying?


In the XXI century in the supposedly freest and bestest country in the world, people should not have to "earn" their civil rights just because they have a specific sexual orientation. Period. It is not an struggle to be proud of, it is a SHAME. People do not have to earn their rights, they are born with them or receive them with citizenship. If some people have to work for their rights, then we live in a multi tiered society. That is not good. This goes beyond so-called civil or gay rights, this is about what we are as a society. I can't think of a more important subject to discuss and further than equality and by implication democracy. Anything else is nothing more than attempts at stalling, which means that those doing the stalling don't consider equality a priority, and taking that to its ultimate logical consequences can be very very dangerous territory IMHO.

So please don't try to go for the whole "patience" angle. It is a sort trip to uppityville from there.

People should not be ever so happy that they just got a few crumbs thrown their way, everybody should have a seat at the table when it comes to have a meal. Period. Either we are all equal, or we are not. Because if some people are more equal than others, then we're neither a free nor democratic society.

[MrScorpio]

172. I don't know what country you've been living in for your entire life...

But, I hope that it doesn't come to a complete surprise to you that America is a place where someone has always gotten the shitty end of the stick. Yes it's true, America has always had a problem with that "free" or "democratic society" part. And THAT'S why there is a continuing struggle as we speak.

It was that way 200 years ago, it was that way 100 years ago, it was that way 50 years ago... and it still is that way today.

Frankly, I don't understand how you can say, on one hand, that America is "the supposedly freest and bestest country in the world" and on the other, that it's actually NOT if you're not straight. That's pure cognitive dissonance, I'm afraid. It's not something that you can tell the LGBTI community that it is, because for them, that's not America that they know.

In the past you couldn't say it to a lot of people, this whole "freest and bestest country in the world" bit:

You couldn't tell it to the Native Americans, who had their land, lives and children taken away from them.

You couldn't tell it to slaves, who were born to African descendants.

You couldn't tell it to Irish immigrants, who were vilified and compared to dogs.

You couldn't tell it to Japanese-Americans, who had their property taken away from them when they were interned in camps.

You couldn't tell it you Mexican migrant workers and their American born children, when they were treated just a little better than slaves.

You couldn't tell it to the people fighting for African-American civil rights in the early days... AS it is for the people who are fighting for LGBTI rights today.

Full equality will not just simply appear out of thin, American air because someone says that it should already be there... It has to be created.

It's going to have to be made, one bloody inch at a time, if that what it takes.


In this struggle, as in all the others that came before, no should expect ANYTHING to be handed to them, that's they're not willing to take for themselves...

Yes, even in the XXI century.

[TorchTheWitch]

207. well said

The idea that equality should be earned is appauling. Just because other groups like women and people of color had to struggle to earn what rights they've gotten doesn't mean it should be that way because it shouldn't be that way.

[pleah]

104. K&R

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[stlsaxman]

105. as long as ANYONE is discrimitated against- I AM DISCRIMINATED AGAINST.

[NMMNG]

107. K&R

From me and my wife. :loveya:

[pinboy3niner]

114. PETITION ASKING DOJ NOT TO DEFEND DADT:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9303802

[handmade34]

119. I have understood

since I was a young'un... and especially since a dear friend of mine took his life and a few others died too early from AIDS...

[iandhr]

120. I agree

full, equality

[YankeyMCC]

121. The fight for equality and justice for all

never ends. There is no 'over'. There will be good times, bad times, times for intensive fights, times for watchful diligence, never a 'end' until we are all gone.

And human beings are not light switches we can only move so far so fast as a group. Fighting for anything less than full equality and justice is failing and fighting for each step is not failing.

As the declaration of independence states all of us are endowed with certain rights and are equal beings under the law and by implication equal moral beings.

I don't believe the rights are 'endowed' by a creator but they are endowed in the sense that no law can remove them or ensure them. All a law can do is discourage or encourage social norms. It isn't laws we are fighting for it is a way of life, we are fighting to influence what others want, move them from ignorance and hatred towards understanding and open-heartedness.

Incremental steps in laws and breakthoughs of homosexual people achieving positions of power and note may be less than what we want but the universe doesn't care what we want. Of course these things don't mean the fight is over but not because they are a failure or unacceptable compromise but because the fight is never over.

[cordelia]

123. Thank you, Stinky,

from this gay guy.

Hope you know you're appreciated.

Rec

[SalmonChantedEvening]

125. Not hard at all.

I want nothing more, and nothing less.

((((Stinky))))

[Imagevision]

209. K&R!!!

[OnyxCollie]

127. K&R. nt

[madokie]

131. No doubt about it

[Pharaoh]

132. yup!

[awoke_in_2003]

135. See my sig line...

[muffin1]

185. I love your sig line!

:yourock:

[awoke_in_2003]

192. yours is pretty good too...

too bad our "leaders" have lost that idea.

[chill_wind]

138. Tell it! K & R.

[tavalon]

140. As a straight woman in a stable triad (been together over 4 years)

I can promise you that when gay people are fully equal, their fight is over. Trust me when I tell you that we will jam our foot into the door they've pried open. We won't even try to get our rights until the gays get theirs. It's the right thing to do because to muddy the waters right now wouldn't be prudent or kind. And you needn't mention that by even bringing it up, I've muddied the waters because you can ask most gays and they know we're waiting in the wings. I wonder if that is why we're often despised by them. It doesn't go both ways. I've actively worked for gay rights and consider them my brethren and there are those in GLBT who do return the affection, but there are plenty who are more hostile to us than needed (I think they're afraid we'll try to undercut them or get the rights that are theirs to get first or something).

[AnnieBW]

151. Damn straight!

Pardon the pun.

Even my 78-year-old Dad is coming around. He just doesn't want the Catholic Church to have to marry gays. I told him that people married in a civil ceremony are just as married as ones whose ceremony was performed by a priest. Heck, in Las Vegas, you can get married in a drive-thru chapel by an Elvis Impersonator and it's legal - as long as you're straight.

"Sanctity of Marriage" my fat ass.

[MrMickeysMom]

157. Thanks, Stinky... you're right

Why is it that hard to remember you didn't wake up and decide sexual preference, you just are what you are.

We're not all supposed to be the same, but we get really upset when we aren't?

I know it's not that simple, but we need to make it THAT simple.

[boppers]

162. It is only when black people are fully equal to YOU that the fight is over.

It is only when female people are fully equal to YOU that the fight is over.
It is only when muslim people are fully equal to YOU that the fight is over.
It is only when atheist people are fully equal to YOU that the fight is over.
It is only when deaf people are fully equal to YOU that the fight is over.

...

Civil rights aren't a battle that can ever be "won", a war that can be "won", they are a struggle that needs to be, that must be, ingrained in society, lest the fight be lost.

[Stinky The Clown]

182. Every group you mentioned has their fundamental rights enshrined in law.

That is not the case with gay people

[Name removed]

163. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Enthusiast]

166. K&R..nt

[Winston Wolf]

169. You Understand, Stinky...

...and you make my day.

Thanks for the great OP. Hope it doesn't get locked all to hell - it's just so good.

[cpwm17]

171. Don't just target straight people

A disproportionately large percentage of homophobes are gay themselves. I've personally witnessed this many times myself. Closet cases can be so hostile to folks they think are gay and that they find good looking. I guess they are disturbed by their feelings and project on their victims.

[The Uncola]

173. Short, to the point...

...and exactly right.

:applause:

[democrank]

175. Full equality

nothing less

[peace frog]

177. I'll k&r that, bunky

Equality is not just for some.

[AldebTX]

178. K&R

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

179. It's not hard to understand, but as a black woman, black Americans didn't get their rights

overnight. It was a political process, sadly, because people didn't want to give us our rights. All I'm saying is that we have to consider the realities of this political system. The hate is still boiling over. We have to keep fighting day and night and not give up on the goal of assuring civil rights to EVERYONE. It won't happen overnight, but I believe in my heart that it will happen. And I believe that gays and lesbians will enjoy full citizenship rights. It won't happen soon enough, but it WILL happen!!

[urgk]

183. Pffft. Don't be reasoned. Or logical. Be visibly upset!

Shout wild generalizations! Make sweeping declarations! Announce unsupported suppositions as absolute truth! Alienate those who support your cause, but not your tactics! Hold yourself up as the one true activist or as part of the one true method of activism!

This isn't about consideration of what would, or will, work. Or what has worked in the past. It's about what some people feel should work.






(If it's not obvious by now, Liberal_Stalwart71, I couldn't agree with you more. Well said.)

[EFerrari]

195. I know that you don't believe gay folk started fighting yesterday. n/t

[muffin1]

181. Thank you,,,

this really needed to be said. Sadly, some here want to pretend like they don't get what you are saying. We ALL know you are not calling the actual people who were appointed "tokens", rather you are saying President Obama's ACTIONS are token. It is NOT enough to say, "Hey I appointed a GLBT person to this post - why can't you people be happy?"

GLBTers deserve Obama's full-throated support on DADT, ENDA, and DOMA. Nothing else is 'good enough'. Period.

Thank you again, Stinky. :loveya:

[bvar22]

186. "Pretend" to misunderstand.

Exactly right!
Morning kick.

[Mad_Dem_X]

188. Amen - we must keep on fighting

side by side with our LGBT brothers and sisters. This is not just THEIR fight, it's everyone's.

[alfredo]

190. Equal protection under the law; anything less is un American.

[Rhythm]

194. Exactly. n/t

[alfredo]

197. My sister in law is gay. Any act against her is an attack on

my family. Any attack on my family is an attack on me. And I don't like anyone fucking with me.

[WillyT]

204. Wish I Could Still Rec !!!

:kick::kick::kick::kick::kick::kick::kick:
:kick::kick::kick::kick::kick::kick::kick:
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:kick::kick::kick::kick::kick::kick::kick:
:kick::kick::kick::kick::kick::kick::kick:
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:kick: