The Chilean rescue is not a miracle

[malaise]

It is the best rescuers from all over the planet converging for good. Bravo to science and cooperation among human beings.
Thank you engineers, NASA experts, miners from across the globe, rescuers, et al.

The religious wackos are gathering but they must not be allowed to claim this one - not when their dismissal of science would have led to the deaths of every miner waiting for help.

[FiveGoodMen]

1. Amen! (so to speak)

[malaise]

3. LOL

:rofl:

[happygoluckytoyou]

441. i saw a rock on the ground there that looked like Mary.... next to a tater that looked like Nixon

[happygoluckytoyou]

442. GOP excited at headline "MINERS COMING OUT"..... mistook it for MINORS

[barbtries]

238. i'll second that

amen (so to speak)!

eta shakespeare: what a piece of work is man...

[stopbush]

374. Ditto

[Kolesar]

407. Then "Ramen" ... eom

[roguevalley]

485. whatever those miners think, whatever they say is fine with me.

If they say so, then good. It was a miracle. No one here who hasn't been there can say one way or the other if the miners want to feel that way. Others? Maybe. But victims and survivors are entitled to believe whatever they want to and no one can say boo.

[FiveGoodMen]

526. I'm glad they're finally out, too.

But the OP wasn't really about what the miners think.

It was about how society's various demagogues will try to spin this.

[Wind Dancer]

589. Good one!!!

[doc03]

2. I'm looking for Bobby Jindal to show up holding a

shovel taking credit for the rescue.

[K8-EEE]

6. LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! nt

[Janice325]

426. Ooooh, ouch and snap to doc03!

:rofl:

All joking aside, I'm glad the miners were safely rescued. I wish we could be as effective here in the United States. :-(

[dsharp88]

451. FANTASTIC!!!!! n/t

[Subdivisions]

4. Amen, malaise! n/t

[spanone]

5. it's a lot of hard work, dedication and a nation that truly cares about it's workers

one of them religious nuts just unrec'd this, don't let em put a spell on you

[malaise]

17. Spell? Wackos, baggers or ReTHUGS??

You must be joking - they can't spell :rofl:

Here's a nice feel good link
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/story?page=101008/Chile

[extractorks]

7. Didn't science get them stuck underground in the first place

Wasn't it science that got them stuck underground in the first place

[spanone]

8. greed.

[hunter]

11. I'd say it was that bizarre unsustainable economic ideology, Capitalism.

Other bizarre unsustainable economic ideologies have caused similar trouble... or worse.

[AlinPA]

No, it was God- who controls every little thing that happens, right?

[Scout]

64. yup ... always seems he gets the credit, never the blame n/t

[ooglymoogly]

383. But that is the Pug way....destroy the country.....take credit and keep anything good that happens

let somebody else take the blame and pay for the bad and any losses pugs incur while they pillage.

[urgk]

469. They've seen the model...they know it works.

Have you ever noticed that mainstream religion and cults operate the same way? Fear of the outside world with the movement's own leader presented as the only protection. Be afraid...but I'll save you.

[urgk]

388. Down-thread I proposed using "Godsmack" as the opposite of "miracle."

Every time a person really gets wronged, I'd like to see somebody point out that it clearly wasn't a miracle. I guess it would have to be in the form of a quote by a religious person who saw the beauty of crediting God for all His actions:

1. "Fishermen 'Godsmacked in Atlantic;' Feared Dead."
2. "14 Year-Old Prostitute 'Godsmacked' Entire Life."
3. "'Pol Pot, Godsmacker,' Subject of New Non-Fiction."

[arcane1]

19. Industry got them stuck in there n/t

[killbotfactory]

31. It was the mine owner(s) ignoring safety protocols and the science behind them

in the name of profit that got them stuck there.

[Demstud]

36. No

I don't think that makes much sense.

[Bill McBlueState]

74. People can both cause and solve problems using science

Science is interesting like that.

[awoke_in_2003]

126. agreed, and so is beer...

to quote the great Homer (not the greek one)- "Beer- the cause of, and solution to, all of life's little problems"

[yellerpup]

158. One of my favorite philosophers.

:rofl:

[urgk]

217. Hm. Isn't Science limited to understanding problems?

I'd think technology and human decision making either solve or cause problems in the way you're suggesting.

In either case, according to the religious, only God can solve or cause problems. In hte interest of fairness, I'd like to see him blamed in every news story where a religious person undergoes some misfortune. "'God Really Did it This Time' Says Terminal Patient."

[Warren DeMontague]

98. How'd all that gold in the basement of the Vatican get out of the ground?

Magic?

[awoke_in_2003]

125. and?...

i jebus is so fucking powerful, he should have been able to prevent this. Or, is this all part of god's plan? If so, he is a fucking sadist.

[Warren DeMontague]

143. IF MAN HAD BEEN MEANT TO DIG, HE-A WOULDA BEEN BORN WITH SHOVELS FOR HAYUNDS!!!!

Can I Get an AAAAAA-MEN????

[intaglio]

145. Exploitation, cost cutting and callousness put them there

Science, engineering and empathy are getting them out. The evangelical minister, the baptist minister and the catholic priest have done nothing except utter some prayers.

[malaise]

188. Ding ding

Not just utter prayers but now claim that they are the reason the people have been rescued...the definition of vultures.

[Iggo]

152. Nice try, but IGNORING science is what got them stuck.

Welcome to DU.

:hi:

[BlancheSplanchnik]

193. no. But in related news, it was SCIENCE that provided you with the interwebs.

FYI

[snooper2]

214. no, Jesubus did it...

It was a test for them...

He engineerined everything just for this moment..the creation of the Earth, the concept of countries, different governments, and this mine..

It's been thousands of years, but everything done on this planet has been for the lead-up to this mine rescue...




These miners are the chosen ones...now bow bitch :rofl:

[Deep13]

247. No. Technology made it possible to go underground...

...but they actually went for economic considerations.

[rhett o rick]

248. No, it was God. nm

[AlbertCat]

340. Science doesn't "do" anything...

.... what we learn from the scientific investigation of things must be APPLIED. How it is applied is another matter altogether.

[Javaman]

466. Isn't it science that allows you to type your halfwitted stupidity? nt

[liberation]

484. "Science" does not mean what you think it does...

[urgk]

559. I think people confuse "science" with "technology." (n/t)

[cleanhippie]

491. Science did it?

You sure about that?

[stray cat]

9. Yet DUers can give our rescue workers in the US crap?

[KansasVoter]

10. WHO???? Except police who beat the shit out of people? I am ready for links!!!

[DireStrike]

29. The house-burning-down debacle -nt-

[Demstud]

38. They're not rescue workers.

Standing around and watching someone's personal property burn to the ground is not rescue work. There was no rescue attempt.

[nadinbrzezinski]

86. I am sorry, but as a former Medic

those firefighters broke multiple codes of conduct.

[Deep13]

251. I think you're making shit up.

What can be claimed without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

[Naturyl]

12. Ah, but it is a miracle.

The miracle is that human beings can work together to help each other in a spirit of compassion - and sometimes even succeed.

No magical intervention beats that.

[Raine]

16. Yes, perfectly put. nt

[malaise]

18. That should be basic human nature

It is in my world

[awoke_in_2003]

128. that is not a miracle...

it is the instinct for preservation of species. However, most people can override this instinct with greed and pure jack-assedness.

[Deep13]

253. The word "miracle" means magical intervention.

I realize some people use the term more broadly than that, but that is only because the assumption that there is divine purpose in everything is a broad assumption.

[jobycom]

419. Oh kontrare, mon frair.

The word originally had no divine meaning. It comes from the Latin verb "to wonder." The divine meaning came later, and coexists with the non-religious one, as any dictionary will tell you. I've been an atheist since the early Reagan era, and I still use the word. Granted, I usually use it in a sports context, as in "It would take a miracle for the Cowboys to make the playoffs this year," and try to avoid it in situations like the miner rescue.

The media likes the word because it makes their religious viewers all happy and atwitter, and it allows them plausible deniability from the non-believers.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

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[Arugula Latte]

20. Oh please ...

We all know how much atheists are "celebrated" in this country, being the MOST hated group of them all.

You can't be serious with this statement.

[DainBramaged]

22. No, gays are the most hated, by the same form of bigotry shown by the atheist's towards Christians

and visa versa Everybody needs somebody to hate.........

[killbotfactory]

32. Wrong

http://newsjunkiepost.com/2009/09/19/research-finds-that-atheists-are-most-hated-and-distrusted-minority/

[DainBramaged]

41. That's a stretch and you know it......defend your position, dig up an old study

and claim it to be emmis.

[Goblinmonger]

62. So find a study that disproves that.

Do you have some indication that the U of Minn was flawed in this study? It's not like it was conducted by Bob's Atheist Group to Prove Atheists are Hated. It's a major research institution in the US.

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Goblinmonger]

69. Um, it was Christians that burned crosses.

Perhaps you don't want to claim the KKK, but they're yours.

And how exactly is that a strawman? You might want to use the googles before you toss around fallacies that you know nothing about. I asked you to find a study that disproved it or show that U of Minn was flawed in their methodology. How the hell is that a strawman?

[Name removed]

172. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

201. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

118. Deleted message

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[awoke_in_2003]

134. +1000. nt

[Name removed]

171. Deleted message

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[awoke_in_2003]

133. you made the accusation...

and in a court of law the burden of proof is on you.

[Name removed]

170. Deleted message

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[Goblinmonger]

203. So people can now make any claim they want and not back it up?

I can say whatever I want and if someone asks that I support that claim I can just call it "anti-______ bigotry."

Sweet. This arguin' just got a LOT easier.

[urgk]

237. You're just saying that because you're a stack of devils in an overcoat...

...sitting there, oozing vitriol and nethersludge, at your coal-black keyboard with a "return" key re-labeled "be damned," trying to sway the righteous with your forked, scaley tongue and agile, demon claws.

Oh, and I mean that literally. Don't even try to tell me otherwise, Mephistophe-puh-leeze. I know you're just an anti-demon-spotter bigot.






(Do I need an actual wink down here to let everybody know I'm actually supporting Goblinmonger's comment? Just in case, this is that wink - ;-D )

[Goblinmonger]

240. To let you know how truly evil I am

I pose not as a scientist but an English teacher. Never know where I hide!

[seabeyond]

241. so as not to perpetuate a falsehood.... every science teacher kids have had taught evolution

and they were also christian.

sorry, doesnt fit in your limited scope.

[Goblinmonger]

242. You thought they were Christian

I bet if you asked my students, they may likely tell you I am a Christian. I don't say that outloud, but I also don't say I'm an atheist--not really safe to do so.

And lighten up, Francis. We were just tossing around a little humor.

[seabeyond]

249. no. people like to say as they diss whole gorups... lighten up. just humor. old and true

way of perpetuating the ahte and bigotry. just humor. lighten up.

are you suggesting to me that only non christians teach evolution? that is an absurdly stupid premise, especially for a teacher. i would be concerned my kids being taught by a teacher with such a narrow view.

not a couple days ago, talking to my youngest that does have a liberal teacher, amongst a sea of republicans, went over past teachers. teachers that were clearly republican, yet able to have a balanced and respectful conversation with both sides of the debate.

i told my son, these teachers i admire the most. they teach you kids that even though they disagree, they can listen to both sides adn be openminded and respect one another.

that is as valuable a lesson to you kids as the actual academic part of the class

[Goblinmonger]

255. I'm not suggesting that at all.

I'm just letting you know that kid's perception of a teacher are not always correct. Many of my students would say I am a Christian. I am quite knowledgeable of the tenets and use that knowledge as we cover symbolism in literature (Beowulf, Old Man and the Sea, etc).

What most kids don't realize is that teachers are much like actors in that we have a "teacher persona" that is not how we are outside of the class. Not that we lie, but that we act differently than in "real life."

Add to that the stigma of being an atheist. Only 3 of my teaching colleagues know I am an atheist. Only about 2 students in the 20 years I have taught knew while they were my students. It would cause way too many problems if people knew. (much like politicians--do you really think that of the 500+ people holding office that only one is an atheist? that just flies in the face of statistics, for one thing).

So all I was trying to say is that you may not know that your students are being taught by atheists.

[seabeyond]

264. and i have much empathy for the atheist not able to speak out. do you see one post

even in my "defending" christians in this thread, one post, where i feel the need to be disrespect or bash an atheist? no

no we dont know all there is to know about the teachers in our schools. yes i know these teachers are christian. i have had conversation with every one of my kids teachers, on numerous levels (being the only democrats for a while in an aggressively rw christian coalition push) and know what i am talking about

i see them in the community and actually have conversation.

until they hit a certain age, i too participated in their school environment

and living in the house of inner-reflection, my kids are pretty good at perceiving and interacting with others in respect.

they learned in a christian private, and being the odd man out. having ot be courageous enough to express differing views (to be true to self) while being respectful to the other, even if the other was not respectful.

again

that has little to do with a thought that a christian science teacher cannot teach evolution.

now, not only will i lighten up, i will opt out.

[urgk]

252. LOL. Teachers are the first place I look for devil-stacks.

Right after I check all the scientists. And artists.

Why check scientists and artists first? Four words - lab coats and smocks.

[freebrew]

265. Steve Allen?

Smock, Smock!!!

[urgk]

584. Try as I might, I can't find that in context.

I mean, people everywhere type things like "Remember the Steve Allen Show? Smock! Smock!" But I can't find a clip or a transcript so that I can see what it means. How was it used?

Sincerely,
Sort of a youngster.

[DainBramaged]

596. This is DU, where Christian bashing is a sport, not a court of law

give me a break. You cry out that Atheists are shown more bias then Christians, yet the Atheists bash the crap out of Christians in this thread, who have yet to say a word against their beliefs.


THAT is convoluted.

[Owl]

182. Thanks for that link; an amazingly detailed study.

[Name removed]

116. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[awoke_in_2003]

131. wrong...

polls clearly show that this country would support a muslim or gay president over an atheist.

[RaleighNCDUer]

191. So, atheists are bigoted toward christians the same way

gays are bigoted toward straights.

I get it.

[Goblinmonger]

227. Brings to mind the old classic

[Deep13]

254. Bullshit.

I can't speak for all of us, but for the most part atheists do not hate Christians. We just think Christians are wrong and are not afraid to say so.

[Kalyke]

295. And liberal Christians should be able to tell you that if

you left it at that, fine. But when you call names and mock us, then we have the right to call you intolerant, in much the same way that fundamentalist Christians/Muslims/Jews/Whatever are intolerant of gays, feminists, people who don't believe what they do, Democrats, etc.

Not believing in God is one thing, mocking those that do is as intolerant, hateful and spiteful as those fundies who hate gays.

[rainlillie]

353. Excellent! Quote..

"Not believing in God is one thing, mocking those that do is as intolerant, hateful and spiteful as those fundies who hate gays."

[Name removed]

355. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seabeyond]

371. parental spook in the sky. security blankie. "poor put upon Christians

no mocking there.

there is a part that you or atheist dont understand nor have experienced.

no the christian would not "stop mulling around the edges, they'd be atheists too"

because of personal experience they do not believe the same as you. which in essense is being discussed yet ignored by you.

it is a matter of respect. and many on this board not only lacks respect for their fellow duers, they are showing a contemptable disrespect in this thread.

[Goblinmonger]

401. I know. People are calling others Klan members.

Oh, wait, that's what a theist said to me.

How come you don't jump on those people? Why only the atheists?

[seabeyond]

402. wtf... and what makes you think i don't, regularly. consistently. continually.

tell me. since you are clueless how i address those that project hate, why would you accuse me of not standing up for the atheist or anyone that is being unfairly bashed. why would you even put it in your post, as if you know.... i would not stand up for an atheist and his beliefs?

[Goblinmonger]

422. You haven't on here.

In this thread. You are virtual high-fiving your buddy that called me a Klan member for asking why they felt the U of Minn study was flawed. Why haven't you called them out? Quite a few of that person's posts have been deleted for being over the top. Yet all you have to say on this thread is aimed at the atheists. Maybe you would stand up for an atheist (who is not defined by their beliefs but lack of them, btw), but you haven't on this thread or any other thread I've been on so I am going to go with that which I have experienced regarding you.

[seabeyond]

425. that isnt high fiving. that is empathy for his being hurt by the attacks.

again, you continue to project onto me what you dont know. as i say, i did not read that post. you have yet to give me info where that is on a very long thread. i cannot defend or not, something i have not read. but again, you are without any idea telling me who i am. that is always a fail. instead of telling me, you might ask.

[seabeyond]

431. wrong place

[polmaven]

436. I asked earlier,

but no one has really answered my challenge. Please show me a thread started specifically for the purpose of bashing atheists. Or. I will add to it...started specifically for the purpose of mocking atheists.

We do not "reject" any Christian dogma or doctrine. We may interpret it differently from the Fundies of the right wing, but we fully embrace the Christian beliefs. We believe that each person is of value. We generally believe that Jesus was, and still is a liberal. We believe that Jesus would reject the intolerance of the right. No true Christian ever condemns anyone to torture and damnation.

But, of course, your own intolerance is to blinding for you to see that.

[Name removed]

597. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AtheistCrusader]

270. Speak for yourself.

[obxhead]

327. As an atheist I have taken much abuse, belittlement, and general

bigotry from followers of many religions.

I've dealt little out in return and I am told daily I should chose to follow god and his rules.

Thanks for explaining so clearly how I treat followers of various religions.

If there was a god I believed in I would pray 3 times a day for it to save me from its followers.

[polmaven]

483. Show us a thread or a response

here on DU that you "should choose to follow god and his rules".

[obxhead]

515. Life is a lot bigger than DU.

:eyes:

[polmaven]

534. But you are posting AT DU.

And you are endorsing a thread with posts that do to Christians exactly what you have said has happened to you, even though you cannot point to anyone here who has done it to you.

[obxhead]

552. Right. I'll remember that all future discussion on DU must

remain focused only on DU and posts that happen on it.

Got it. I have been corrected and will comply in the future.

:crazy:

[polmaven]

553. When you are responding on a thread

that has deteriorated into one that has become a festival to bash other DU members simply for their own beliefs, yeah! DU members DO NOT demonize GLBT or any other groups, for that matter, .....except,that is, those of us who are people of faith.

[DainBramaged]

599. No proof, all they do is bash and we are the bad people here on DU

[rhett o rick]

341. Yes, the Atheist's Inquisition is a good example. Oh wait, I got that backward. nm

[liberation]

490. First of all, the plural of atheist is "atheists" second, visa has nothing to do with this...

... unless they have some sort of sponsorship for logical dissonance.

Nice attempt at having the victimizers (religious groups who hate gays) as being the victims. Good grief if there is no depth of fallacy some of the religious whacks won't lower themselves in order to defend their superstition of choice.

[seabeyond]

492. are you saying that poster is a religious whack. cause skinner said there are not those religious

whacks on du so the op was not addressed to any christian on du.

[liberation]

496. I don't like red herrings, they stink and taste foul...

Good luck with your fishing expedition though.

[seabeyond]

504. "no depth of fallacy some of the religious whacks " did you call this duer a

religous whack? simple question. to as a question is not red hearing or fishing expedition. i am asking. did you call him a religious whack?

[liberation]

507. That is a red herring...

... because you're trying to twist my argument by focusing on a portion and taking it out of context.

I did indeed call him a religious whack because he was equating the victimization and persecution of homosexuals by religious people, with the supposed prosecution of religious people by atheists. An argument which is of such fundamental fallacy, that the only types of people I could think of that could have made such argument were either an incredibly disingenuous person trying to push a very false narrative or a person operating under extreme delusion, this is a "whack." I decided to give the previous poster the benefit of the doubt and assume the least damaging of the assumptions.

Now, once again as I said before... good luck with your fishing expedition!

[seabeyond]

508. he is arguing simplistically the same reasoning of hate by both sides, using the same

manner in text

[Diamonique]

24. Oh puhleeze!

[DainBramaged]

27. Pot meet kettle....

[killbotfactory]

33. Yeah, religious people just can't ever catch a break!

Try to sacrifice your first born to the gods and the FEDS are all over your ass!

[JuniperLea]

43. I love spiritual people...

But religious people scare the hell out of me.

[yellerpup]

160. I hear that!

Good point.

[awoke_in_2003]

135. tell me about it...

my neighbor refused to obey the sabbath, ate shellfish, wouldn't sell me his daughter, and absolutely refused to sacrifice oxen. I mentioned that he should die and the cops gave me hell about it :)

[Rebubula]

161. OK...

...That was funny.

If I could recommend a post, yours would be the one.

Simply awesome.

[Demstud]

40. So?

A belief is a personal choice. Nothing wrong with challenging beliefs in a non-violent method.

[JuniperLea]

42. As a recovering Fundy...

I only "skewer" hypocrites. There are extremists in ALL religions, and there are those who use their religion as a weapon. That is seriously fucked up.

I think you should rethink...

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

58. It's been a while since I used this one, but it never gets old.

[RaleighNCDUer]

204. OK, I like it.

Took me a second to figure out who that was in the center, then...

[Kalyke]

313. I still don't get it - maybe because I can't figure out who is in the center.

:shrug:

[RaleighNCDUer]

351. Mia Farrow. nt

[Goblinmonger]

63. Bullshit.

Complete and absolute bullshit. Are you seriously trying to tell people that the US is tolerant of atheists? That's just laughable.

[Umbral]

92. Yeah, that's why all the halls of power are thick with atheists and agnostics.

The delusion is strong with this one.

[Lucian]

130. Your brain must be more damaged than you let on.

Atheists are one of the most hated groups in America.

[polmaven]

169. Maybe among (R)s,

but not here at DU.....Here is is the other way around. Here, intolerance for religious people is overwhelming. You see a lot of religion bashing here, but I would challenge anyone to show me a single thread begun, at least in GD, for the sole purpose of dissing atheism/agnosticism. Why not put these in the forums created for that, rather than in GD?

[seabeyond]

173. +1. nt

[RaleighNCDUer]

213. Nonsense. It is not intolerance for religious people - it is intolerance of

dangerous, damaging ideas held by some people who call themselves religious. You don't see 'bashing' of UU, of Quakers, of any non-hateful brand of religion. When have you ever seen a "those fucking B'Hai" threads?

If you feel someone is attacking YOU when you see a thread decrying people using their invisible sky ghost as an excuse to hate people, then perhaps you need to look at YOUR beliefs, not theirs.

[Lucian]

315. +1

[AlbertCat]

364. It is not intolerance for religious people

You forget... "Intolerance", when referring to the religious, means not agreeing wholeheartedly and completely with everything they think. Criticizing what they wear to church is religious intolerance!!! Pointing out those shoes don't go with that Sunday go-to-meeting outfit is an invitation to HELL! Religion must not be criticized in any form!

and don't you forget it!

[Toucano]

14. miracle -noun: a wonderful or surpassing example of some quality: a miracle of modern acoustics.

Yes, it is a miracle. It is a wonderful example of the human spirit.

[Art_from_Ark]

144. You are right--

I think the airliner making a successful crash landing in the Hudson River-- without a single fatality, either on the ground or among the passengers and crew, qualifies as a "miracle", whether there was divine intervention or not.

[Gormy Cuss]

330. Yes. The rescue is a miracle of science and engineering.

[Toucano]

477. I can't ignore the human spirit that employs science and engineering

to save 33 fellow creatures nor the spirit of the men who retained their sanity and will to survive such confinement.

It's a miracle on many levels. :-)

[Gormy Cuss]

545. I agree! n/t

[Goblinmonger]

390. How nicely intellectually dishonest of you to use the 4th definition.

Here's the whole thing:

mir·a·cle   
Show IPA
–noun
1.
an effect or extraordinary event in the physical world that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause.
2.
such an effect or event manifesting or considered as a work of god.
3.
a wonder; marvel.
4.
a wonderful or surpassing example of some quality: a miracle of modern acoustics.
5.
miracle play.
Use miracle in a Sentence
Origin:
1125–75; ME miracle, miracul (< OF miracle ) < L mīrāculum, equiv. to mīrā ( rī ) to wonder at + -culum -cle2
Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2010.

It's kind of odd that the first and second definitions contradict your point but you left those off. Did you think nobody else had ever heard of dictionary.com?

Some people. What would your Jesus think of that?

ETA: I'm sure some will call me an evil atheist for pointing that out. Or that I'm dividing the party. Or some crap.

[jobycom]

424. How nicely intellectually dishonest of you to ignore the 4th definition.

The poster didn't say that the word never had a divine context. The poster just pointed out that the word doesn't have to have a divine context. It doesn't. Merriam Webster has the non-divine meaning as number 2. Is that better, or do we have to ignore every meaning of a word except the first one listed? I'm sure I could parse your post and find a case where you used a word in its second or lower context according to some dictionary.

And before you jump to a conclusion about my religious beliefs, google me. I've been an atheist most of my life and have not one religious bone in my body. You're not an evil atheist. You just jump to hateful conclusions based on your own demons. Ooops. I used another word that could have religious or secular connotations, didn't I? I guess "my" Jesus would not approve.

[Goblinmonger]

434. But that clearly is not the definition that the OP is using

and, by the rank order of definition, not the meaning that most people use.

I have no demons. I look back fondly on my Catholic upbringing. My days in the seminary were very positive and still maintain friendships with my classmates who include priests, devoutly religious, and non-religious. Just making sure you aren't jumping to conclusions about why one becomes an atheist. (Projection?)

[jobycom]

458. It IS clearly the definition others are using and that the OP is denying.

I was making no assumptions about why one becomes an atheist, only responding to the assumption in your post that the PP was religious--or the relevance of his or her religion at all.

[Toucano]

476. How can we have a conversation or a discussion when you don't even understand how LANGUAGE works?

One word can signify different things. It needn't signify ALL of the possible things to be appropriately used. Therefore, it isn't necessary to cite ALL the definitions to prove my point.

This rescue is a miracle.

If that word necessarily has a religious context to you, then that is your INDIVIDUAL problem because you willfully choose to ignore that it also has a meaning devoid of any religious context.

Your stubborn and ignorant refusal to acknowledge the secular context of the statement does not prohibit the rest of us from correctly using it.

You're not evil. You're just narrow-minded - like the opposite side of the same coin as the religious wackos.

[Goblinmonger]

527. So let me get this straight

You put forth the 4th definition of a word as the only definition you are offering and I present all the definitions from the same dictionary and it is I that doesn't understand language? It is I that doesn't understand words signify different things? It is important to know the rank order of the definitions to see how that dictionary feels most people use a word. I will assume that you know that about dictionaries (that's why I said you were intellectually dishonest--if you don't know that then I will substitute ignorant).

That word has a religious context according to the dictionary YOU USED. The first and second definition of the word are religious. That reflects a pretty clear indication from the writers of the dictionary that that is how it's used most of the time. Certainly there is a non-religious meaning, but it is down the line and not the most common. I'm not ignoring the secular context, I am recognizing that isn't how most people use it. Don't throw around the word "correct" when everything about how a dictionary works shows that your definition isn't the most common.

[Toucano]

539. This conversation is beyond you, I'm afraid.

You clearly don't have the foggiest notion of how discourse operates.

I wish you the best of luck.

[Goblinmonger]

541. I'm quite clear how you think it works

1. you make a point
2. we all nod in agreement and smile at your wit and intelligence

I think I made some rather valid points to your "discourse." You choose to ignore them. If you don't want to discuss the process of writing a dictionary, fine. Don't blow this off as me not understanding "discourse."

[Overseas]

15. K&R. Very well said. //nt

[glitch]

21. K & R to the moon! nt

[H2O Man]

23. Miracles do happen;

they just take a dog-gone lot of work." -- Rubin Carter

[malaise]

30. Pretty much

This is very exciting

[spanone]

44. 'the more i practice, the luckier i get'...golfer gary player

[onethatcares]

25. right, miracles are

turning water into wine and feeding thousands with a loaf of bread, or maybe rising from the dead.

[awoke_in_2003]

137. Jesus walks into a bar...

the bar tender says "What'll you have". "Oh, just a glass of water"

[onethatcares]

473. hahahahahahhahaaa

thanx I needed that.

Peace

[Yeshuah Ben Joseph]

536. Keeps the bar tab low that way

Of course when I "buy" a round of water for everyone, they get mad at Me. :(

[awoke_in_2003]

542. you make me chuckle. nt

[Canuckistanian]

26. Science and Engineering solve problems

This was a particularly challenging problem.

The 'miracle' was that the PEOPLE - scientists, engineers and workers - were able to work hard to SOLVE this problem.

No divine intervention was required here. It was all due to hard work of HUMANS.

[malaise]

35. Absolutely and for once

those with advanced technology decided to join hands with miners from everywhere and help the poor.

Looks like everyone who is anyone is in Copiapo.

I'm watching on BBC - they've been great from the beginning.

[uncommon]

28. It is a testament, however, to the ability of human beings to do the right thing, no matter

how difficult.

[malaise]

34. Beautifully stated

:applause:

[awoke_in_2003]

138. and it is too bad...

that we all cannot do the same thing.

[uncommon]

168. Indeed. Of course most people will take nothing from seeing this.

[Odin2005]

37. UGH, I hate when people call things like this a "miracle".

It is an insult to the people working on getting those folks out! :grr:

[malaise]

39. Precisely

:hi:

[JuniperLea]

45. It's also an insult to any real miracles that might happen...

I'll not hold my breath, but I can hope.

[malaise]

46. Evo Morales said it best

It is solidarity for the working man.

What a rare thing these days.

[JuniperLea]

53. It brings tears to my eyes...

This solidarity of which you speak!

Very rare indeed.

[malaise]

54. Would be nice if neo-liberalism and individual greed

came to a fitting end in Chile - after all Allende and Chileans were the original victims.

[malaise]

55. Wouldn't it be nice if neo-liberalism and individual greed

came to a fitting end in Chile - after all Allende and Chileans were the original victims.

By the way Obama send the miners a message a short while ago wishing them all the best.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/world/2010-10/13/c_13554469.htm

[awoke_in_2003]

139. "solidarity for the working man"...

a very rare thing indeed. Take Jimmy Hoffa- yes, he did some bad things, but he ALWAYS did what he thought was right for his guys. People like him made unions possible, and the American worker takes people like him for granted. 40 hour work week, overtime pay, safe working conditions, paid vacation every year- thank solidarity of the working man for all of that.

[malaise]

147. 100% correct n/t

[Caliman73]

365. After he said that, did he kick the person he said it to in the nuts?

:rofl:

[liberation]

488. "real miracle" aren't those two self contradicting terms?

[Rabrrrrrr]

259. Indeed. And it cheapens morality when "doing the right thing" becomes "a miracle"

then we can more easily dismiss doing the right thing.

So in the future we can get the wonderful scenario: "Help out in a tragedy? Nah, the mine workers ordeal proved that helping people and doing the right thing actually requires a miracle, and I ain't seeing one happen here, and certainly we-the-mortal-people can't make a miracle like this happen. I'm going home."

[cbdo2007]

47. Who knows? Without God they may all have been dead a few months ago.

How do you know?

[malaise]

48. By your logic the said ' gawd' sent those rocks

into the mine in the first place and created this entire mess.

No some mine owners decided to take chances with the lives of poor people as usual.

[cbdo2007]

56. I didn't say anything about the disaster and God being responsible.

I'm saying that after it happened, maybe God gave them the strength to survive for 2 months in order to be rescued.

Really it's pointless to argue. You can't prove God doesn't exist any more than I can prove God does exist. That's the great thing about God though is that the idea of God means different things to different people. Without the ability to "prove" either way, then this may be a miracle or it may not be, who knows? I don't know. You don't know either.

[malaise]

60. This thread is not about the existence of any god or gods

It is about who did the very hard work to rescue these men.

[deutsey]

156. From what I understand, the Chilean government had done an excellent job

keeping the miner's alive and as healthy as possible.

[malaise]

195. True but others from several countries have provided

ideas, technology and equipment for the rescues. Many just showed up to help. It's wonderful when humans show our best side.

[DainBramaged]

598. Then why did you insist on singling out "religious wackos"????

You can't have it both ways. OH WAIT, you can........

[Daemonaquila]

226. That statement is offensive.

No, the thread is not about whether gods exist or not. However, giving god (even as a "maybe") credit for the good outcome is the same variety of intellectual dishonesty as a football player saying "God was with us" when they won the game, but who doesn't blame god when they are smashed in the next game. You only get to say that god helped these miners if you also say that god abandoned the miners at Sago. The sensible approach is to leave god (whether she exists or not) out of it, and celebrate human will, compassion, and creativity.

[malaise]

397. Amen

:hi:

[Arugula Latte]

368. Seems "God" never gets blamed for anything bad, but gets credit for anything good.

If there is a deity capable of "giving strength" to individuals, why would this being trap them underground in the first place?

[cleanhippie]

498. So the questions that begs to be asked is why?

IF god intervened and gave them strength to survive, why would god not just prevent the accident from happening or make it so that they could easily be rescued?

[bullwinkle428]

50. So does that mean when other disasters take place killing

a large number of people, that God was on a coffee break? :shrug:

[urgk]

233. Nope. It means they didn't pray hard enough.

Not hard enough to sway him into changing his billion-year plan for the universe, anyway. Sure, he set all this into motion knowing that some good, decent person is going to die a hellish death in a torture room in some psychopath's basement, or that a group of nuns will get decapitated, or that entire nations will rape and maim each other, but if you just pray hard enough, he'll send an earthquake, or Geraldo or a stampede of angels to set you free.

That's what you have to believe anyway - that, just by "faith" you have more power than the next guy. That's what gets people to send televangelists money to fuel their empires or to follow the rules about when, where and with whom you can have sex.

[awoke_in_2003]

140. funny how god...

is never there to prevent disaster. But he sure is there to take credit when people bust their ass to save others. I have worked with people like this god- they are fucking worthless.

[pipi_k]

208. I would imagine the rabid god-people might claim...

that every mine (or other) disaster that didn't happen was a "miracle" sent by god.

They might also claim that disasters that do happen are either "god's will" or the work of the devil, in which case, it's sort of a learning experience for the humans as they use the technology god gave them the intellect to invent in order to rescue people.


These are some of the arguments I've heard from my Fundy sister on other similar topics.

Just insane.

[nadinbrzezinski]

391. So where was God In Aushwitz?

Sorry that is the damn obvious question. Killing fields anyone? The Armenian Holocaust? The American-Indian Genocide? Want me go go on? I guess they were not praying hard enough or followed the rigtt god...

No sarcasm needed, but trust me teachers hated it when I asked these questions at ten.

[urgk]

456. Watching his cosmic plan unfold, as I understand it.

I mean, if he:

1. knows/knew everything...including each instant of evil
2. made the rules and set the universe in motion...knowing it would lead to each instant of evil

Isn't he responsible for every instance of evil, from the singular murder to genocide? Didn't he, in essence, invent or plan or ask for the Killing Fields? John Wayne Gacey? Rwanda? Or does God have a blind spot? An equally powerful anti-God? Limited power?

Every time I ask the faithful, I get the "we can't know the mind of God" hogwash.

[liberation]

486. So god let them be trapped, so that they could be rescued.

Yeah, that makes total "sense"...

[liberation]

487. Dupe

Dupe

[cleanhippie]

493. Who knows? Maybe god put them there in the first place.

How do you know?

[Nye Bevan]

49. If God claims credit for helping them get out

then he has to take the blame for allowing them to get stuck down there in the first place.

[malaise]

51. Haven't you noticed that gods never claim anything

Men and women make the claims :D

[urgk]

398. But God speaks through them.

It is His divine hand, moving their mouths. Despite the fact that they have free will. Because God...uhmm...works around that..in mysteeeerious ways that you can't even begin to understand. Because He made you that way. And knew some of you wouldn't understand to the point that you would die atheists and be damned forever. So he knew that....and you still had free will. To die the way he saw and be damned. Because the Bible says so.


(did I cover all of the possible responses form the religious? ;) )

[rucky]

59. God is too busy making sure the Phillies win the pennant.

[Yeshuah Ben Joseph]

543. Anyone but the Yankees

That's who Satan and his new friend Mr. Steinbrenner are cheering for. :)

[Contrary1]

52. "Miracle"...whatever

I don't care what/who we credit for it. Get them out...we can argue about it later.

[WolverineDG]

57. It is to those whose loved ones & friends have been stuck in that mine

of all the things to get your knickers in a twist about.

:eyes:


dg

[Name removed]

150. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WolverineDG]

154. For someone with such a rational mind, you completely missed the point

of what I was saying. And :wtf: does Lieberman have to do with the rescue of mine workers in Chile? Seriously, your response makes no fucking sense at all.

dg

[seabeyond]

61. i will respectfully allow people to make what they will of it. whom am i to tell them what to

believe?

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Contrary1]

72. +100 ! n/t

[liquid diamond]

68. This. We have enough shit to fight over. Why use

a great moment like this to batter each other?

[Catherina]

84. +1000 n/t

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Goblinmonger]

70. So do you think it is invalid to ask that the correct people get credit?

Should people just say god did a great thing when this was the effort of a great deal of talented, dedicated, and caring humans?

And the "divide" meme gets a little tiring. If I had a dollar for everytime someone on DU told me to stop talking about issues important to atheists because it is just going to divide us or give the Repubs something to talk about, I could buy myself that new Kindle I have my eye on.

[WolverineDG]

73. How does calling something a "miracle" take credit away from the "correct" people?

As for discussing issues important to atheists, there is an Atheists Forum on DU.

dg

[Goblinmonger]

76. Because words have actual meanings.

And "miracle" would indicate that the source of the action is unknown. That it is godly. That isn't the case here. We pretty much know exactly who did this. No "miracle" involved.

As to the "Atheists Forum on DU"
1. It's not a forum, it's a group. That's a big distinction.
2. So anything involving atheists must be delegated to that small quadrant of the intertubes?
2(a). Kind of smacks of back of the bus.
3. If you don't want hateful atheists stinking up the place, there are several religious groups that you can go to and the great unwashed masses of atheists will be stopped from piping up there. Go ahead. Lead by example.

[WolverineDG]

77. only to nitpickers

and as for your whining about the atheist group, well you could say the same thing about the other groups too, but I don't see people who frequent those areas posting in GD & being as offensive as possible towards those who don't believe the exact same way as they do.

dg

[Goblinmonger]

80. I have been no where near as offensive as I could be.

I like the atheist group. It's great. It's not a place for a general discussion, though.

Look upthread. I was told to burn a cross because I asked someone to explain why they dismissed a study that showed atheists were the most disliked minority in the US. Oh the sweet taste of irony at bedtime.

[WolverineDG]

151. That's debatable nt

[Goblinmonger]

157. Trust me.

And take a look which messages have been deleted.

[nadinbrzezinski]

88. Miracle has a sense a meaning

and it has nothing to do with what rescue workers do on a regular basis.

[WolverineDG]

153. So, if the person rescued &/or their family members say "It's a miracle"

they're somehow offending the rescue workers or demeaning the work they do on a daily basis? :crazy:

dg

[RaleighNCDUer]

223. If they thank god instead of thanking the people who have worked for

weeks on end getting the miners out? Definitely.

[seabeyond]

239. ya. i am sure these men are such assholes they will say... hey, god did it, fuck off.

geeezus.

[WolverineDG]

479. This is getting re-dunk-u-lous

I can't believe people are getting so bent out of shape over someone, anyone, saying the Chilean mine rescue is a miracle. :eyes:

Ok, fine. I'm now lumping you all in the same category (Bat-shit Insane) as fundies who claim the theme song to Mr. Ed & the Harry Potter books are Satanic, and treating you accordingly.


dg

[malaise]

82. +1,000

Thank you

First miner arrives - his daughter is weeping

[EFerrari]

71. For a person of faith, you throw around "hate" pretty easily. n/t

[seabeyond]

78. i was talking to a god fearing christian repug this weekend who is running for st rep

i said how angry i was at his party for pushing hate. that as a christian, he had a responsibility adn obligation to stand up to the hate in his religion.

is that throwing hate around pretty easily. am i not allow to use the word as a descriptive?

or was it ok then because i was speaking to a christian about the hate in his religion?

[EFerrari]

93. Calling malaise hate filled for this OP is completely over the top

even if you don't know her.

[liquid diamond]

122. Right. I'm sure the OP meant to convey love in his statement.

Silly me. :sarcasm:

[EFerrari]

367. You realize that there is a universe between those extremes, right?

And malaise is not a he.

[Kalyke]

75. And to the religious who are not whackos...

Ignore mean people who can't seem to tolerate that others think differently than they do.

[Name removed]

123. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[krispos42]

79. It's a miracle they stayed sane to be rescued.

Past that, it's just engineering, money, time, and effort.

[nadinbrzezinski]

89. Even that is science

see NASA personnel, US Navy Personnel and a few others from OTHER countries who work with people in confined spaces.

We actually HAVE over 100 years of experience with confined space and psychology. Oh and over at least 7K of mining.

[TheBigotBasher]

81. The religious right would have left these people to die.

They can F off.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

83. GO Secular Humanism!!!

The belief that people working together can solve the world's problems. No supernatural input required.


Or as Pierre Simon LaPlace said to Napoleon while demonstrating an orrery (a model of the solar system), "the system does not require a God".

[nadinbrzezinski]

85. Of course it is not

it is a lot of work, and a lot of technology and a lot of planning. But a few (more than a few) lack any understanding of what is going on here, so of course they prefer to say... it is a higher power.

Now for the families, if they believe that there is a miracle here, I will not begrudge them that.

But a miracle.. not at all. If anything, not that I want these accidents... it is a good thing. It is bringing people together. Hell, two nations that don't like each other are together in spirit tonight.

(and as far as me, having done Rescue work, nothing like this... SALUTE) it takes some serious huevos to go down.

[Duer 157099]

87. This was also one of my early thoughts

Science has a lose-lose situation, it does "miracles" but God always gets to claim the credit.

I long for a world when that is not the case anymore.

[nadinbrzezinski]

90. There are a few cases in medical care

that might qualify as a miracle since all known science don't explain it... but this one... no, not really.

[Skittles]

91. "God" claims nothing

God's nutty fan base does all the claiming

[Duer 157099]

103. Yes, of course.

If it *were* "God" making the claim, well, then we'd be having a whole other discussion, lol.

[akbacchus_BC]

94. Malaise, Thank you for this OP. Isn't it wonderful how the brains came

together to make this rescue happen one month earlier than predicted.

No matter what, when the real brains pool their resources and efforts, it is not a miracle it is just astounding. If that is not humane, what else is? Perhaps divine intervention also helped to keep those miners alive! Thank you God!

Am so happy that the miners are being rescued. What a wonderful night!

Thank you everyone for your hopes and prayers!

[malaise]

523. Unbelievable

Three miners to go. Thank you human beings - I have renewed faith in our collective spirit- solidarity forever!!

[Contrary1]

95. If someone wants to believe this is God's work...so what?

Does it affect you one way or the other so much that you feel that you must force your feelings upon others?

If the answer is "NO"...

Let it be.

[EFerrari]

96. Pointing out that science and technology rescued these people is not a feeling. n/t

[Contrary1]

99. OK, I grant you that...But if one wants to believe it was something else...so what?

Let it be.

[EFerrari]

363. I understand what you're saying. The problem is faith has been used

as a political weapon on us for so long,imo. It's not really only a matter of respecting diversity any more but of being vigilant for the next way cynics will use it to degrade our society.

[seabeyond]

373. and the christians on this board are the very people that stand up to those using it as a

weapon.

how did they earn that contempable disrespect exhibited on this thread?

[EFerrari]

382. You're begging two questions there. n/t

[seabeyond]

384. ? begging? do clarify eferrari. what am i "begging"? nt

[EFerrari]

386. Iow, you've made two claims without supporting them in any way

and want to take this argue from there as if you have proven them. That is called "begging the question".

[seabeyond]

387. duer christians do not attack the hatefilled christian? duers do not stand up for atheists rights?

this thread is not full of disrespect for christian duers?

ya

questions

that simple.

[DainBramaged]

393. This thread has made me question my belief in DU

And I think I will see ya later


Be well.

[seabeyond]

like i never quit talking to the fundamentalist, i wont here either.

if we stop challenging, it will become the norm. and that is too dangerous and sad.

so i will never stop challenging

and you take care of you

[malaise]

601. This thread is about giving credit where it is due

and I used the word wackos. I have never considered you a wacko.

[DainBramaged]

602. Kalyke says it all for those of us who are Christians....

I am mocked, ridiculed and called stupid because I happen to follow a faith. I've not beaten any of you. I've not bashed you for your sexuality or your gender or the coins in your pocketbook. I am not stupid. I am not childish. I do not deserve to be mocked.


I appreciate your consideration, but you have lumped me in because of my faith. And that is why I took offense. If you had simply said "religious leaders" instead of wackos, I would have wholeheartedly agreed and not posted a single reply to this thread.

I am growing tired of defending an indefensible position here.


Be well

[EFerrari]

449. When you pile supposition on supposition, you are not making your case. n/t

[seabeyond]

452. christian duers go after fundie christians. christian duers support atheists.

there is a lot of christian bashing on this thread.

see

not hard

has nothing to do with the red hearing of supposition upon supposition. just an unwillingness to acknowledge the truth because it doesnt support agenda.

[EFerrari]

460. So you say. And that is my point.

It would be easier for readers to follow your thinking if you offered any evidence at all to support your claims.

[seabeyond]

463. ah. so you are of a position that christian duers dont challenge fundies, or stand up for atheist?

really?

i have done it so often. so often. i am sorry that is how you see your fellow duers, but your prerogative. nothing i can do about that.

[EFerrari]

468. What is this, Bad Reasoning Day at DU?

There are a number of good basic logic courses on line that might help you understand why simply repeating something does not make it true any more than attributing opinions to others makes your case.

[seabeyond]

482. no, it is addressing a poster making accusations in inuendos... and leaving me clueless wtf you are

talking about

i keep getting these obscure accusations from you so i ask. it isn't like you can friggin answer any question. you just keep making comments accusing me of something without anything concrete to allow me the basic consideration of knowing where you are coming from.

wtf is going on. you tell me. instead of playing with a bunch of air, just say what you have to say.

[urgk]

448. EFerrari - Kudos for using the phrase the right way.

I see it all the time used to mean "which leads us, naturally to the following question." My guess is that people misinterpret it as "which begs FOR the question..."

[Sugarcoated]

531. Thank you!

And let me just say that you rock seabeyond.

[seabeyond]

550. well

you are welcome, and

thank you back atcha.

[malaise]

146. Bingo

Science, technology and a lot of good will from people who came from many parts of the planet. :hi:

[nadinbrzezinski]

97. It was hard work

not a father figure in the sky that did this. It is way over time for people to realize this.

And trust me, as a rescue worker I had to deal with this is GOD's will all the time, for the good, the bad and the very ugly.

[DainBramaged]

378. Here it IS acceptable for those who don't Believe to force their feelings on those that do

Are all Muslims terrorists? But according to so so many here, all Christians are terrorists, and can only be tools of the Right wing.

[fascisthunter]

480. because it trivializes what REALLY went on there

and it happens all too often.

[liberation]

497. Hey, next time you do something remarkable after tedious nonstop work. I will claim credit for it.

So what, no?

[MH1]

100. Well said!

[Warren DeMontague]

101. "Splendor in the dark, lightnin' on the draw, we'll go right through the book and break

each & every law..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tA8ykjJpOE8

[wisteria]

102. Maybe it is a miracle that after so many people of religion want to divide us, that all those people

who made this happen were able to come together,put their differences aside and together work to preserve and save the lives of these miners.

[nadinbrzezinski]

104. No, not really

that is the nature of rescue workers.

Trust me, done a few... nothing like this... but trust me. When there is a need, people just do. Most of the time, out of sight and out of mind.

[wisteria]

272. It is nice to be reminded that there are good people in this world and that human beings are

good at heart.

[akbacchus_BC]

105. Kick, two rescued, 31 to go! I will keep this kicked for Malaise! n/t

[progressoid]

106. Wel duh. It's football season - God's got a lot more important things to do with his miracles.

Heck, my kid's school might win the conference!

[akbacchus_BC]

109. Hope you and family will always be successful and will never ever

need us. You are a piece or work!

Karma has a way to turn around events, hope you know that. Enjoy your football!

[Born_A_Truman]

107. Leave it to DU to take a happy moment ...

and turn it into a f*ng flamefest.

:puke:

[akbacchus_BC]

108. You know! Some just cannot be happy for good events. Pissing me off n/t

[liquid diamond]

124. Yeah, this place has jumped the shark.

If there was anything good about the Bush years, it was that we were united.

[WolverineDG]

155. No kidding

Gotta watch what you say because you might offend someone.

dg

[rainlillie]

375. LOL!

[burrowowl]

110. MSNBC coverage

better than CNN so far!

[akbacchus_BC]

111. BBC carrying the coverage too. It is very emotional for everybody,

minus a few!

[demwing]

112. I am the religious whacko you despise

What you describe as having happened is my very definition of a miracle, and I do claim it as divine.

Where you are terribly wrong is in thinking that all of us dismiss science. That's just crazy talk. I mean, come down to earth, loopy!

[akbacchus_BC]

113. She does not despise you, context is important but you had to be derisive!

[demwing]

115. Funny. I see miracle, you see none

I get a little goofy, you get none.

Relax, it was just a joke.

[akbacchus_BC]

117. This is serious and if you wish to be goofy, go in the lounge!

[demwing]

121. No. I am serious

but I can be goofy in my seriousness.

And don't ever tell me how to live my life :)

[Name removed]

136. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[malaise]

148. Not everyone gets it

Here's Mario Gomez now - quite a hero.

[demwing]

149. Oh I get it

I just see enough reason to be serious in life. This all makes me giddy. and I love it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

114. Well you are entitled to your opinion

but having been to a few of these "miracles" I know the kind of sweat, very human sweat, it takes to pull this off.

No prayers in the world would have helped in ANY of those rescues I was present at... and neither did any prayers play a role here.

This was sheer engineering, technology and team work.

But if you want to pray, by all means do.

And no, I don't think you are a whacko. Insofar as I am concerned you have a very different world view than mine. Not opposed, not alien, just damn different.

[demwing]

120. thanks. We disagree on the details, but so what?.

We agree on the big picture- whatever the reason, it was a damn fine thing.

I have NO desire to convert anyone to my opinion. Nor do I pray, especially not in Jesus' name, Amen.

Spirituality is something like being in love. It isn't logical or rational at all, in the strict sense. Try to justify love. Show me where love is. Can I see it? Can you touch it? Is there any instrument that can measure it?

It's all about experience, and once you have that unique experience, like being in love, or feeling the presence of the divine, you can't deny it, regardless of whether someone tells you you're rational or not.

[nadinbrzezinski]

129. Love can and has been seen in FMRI machines

certain areas of the brain do light up. So yes, it can NOW be measured.

Believe it or not, so has spirituality and politics. In fact, the same area of the brain that lights up with very religious people, lights up with very political people.

In fact, religion might have, until recently, provided a survival advantage, group identity and all that.

The problem with religion AND politics, is that at least in extreme forms both have end of the world ideologies. When we live in a place where we can make that happen, I get a little nervous. Something about prophecies that become reality and all that.

[liberation]

495. They are entitled to their own opinion, that is for sure, but not their own FACTS.

People are further entitled to their own delusions, but they should understand that is not the same case for respect... which is earned not granted.

[demwing]

521. You mistakenly think I need your respect,

But your opinion about my faith doesn't matter at all. How could it?

I mean, no one likes to be treated poorly by anyone. And it does hurt when you get that scorn in DU, but only because I consider this place like a group of friends, and as such, its hard to be insulted by friends.

I don't proselytize, and therefore my expressions of personal belief shouldn't cause YOU so much aggravation. I'm free to speak my mind as long as I'm respectful of others. But if even such polite and respectful freedom of expression-in and of itself-insults your senses, then perhaps you should take up another hobby, because internet forums may not be for you.

[Name removed]

132. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[urgk]

187. What's the word for God imperiling humans in the first place?

Because I have several news sites full of events to which I'd like to apply that label. And very few where it seems he relented and performed a miracle.

I mean, should we call it a "smite"? A "wrathfulness"? A "Godsmack"? Or Godmsack as a verb? I can see the headlines now "Girl, 6, Godsmacked by sex predator." Or "Man Godsmacked by grizzly bear." "Somalia Godsmacked by war; rape." Or should we just thank the lord for his wife-batterer-like attentions at all times without applying a label?

"Quadraplegic thanks Lord for Drunk Driver."

"Ethiopia Asks Loving Creator For Loaves, Fishes."

"AIDS Means He Loves Me, Says Sarcoma Patient."

[demwing]

284. I don't know. I don't think that way

Not everything bad that happens is a punishment, not every good thing is a reward.

Maybe the word your looking for is "life"

And "life" is a miracle.

[urgk]

360. Try it, just for a second.

If we credit God for good deeds - for rescues, for baby toes, for all things fuzzy and warm - we call them "miracles." Now, there are other things that happen, that happen in the universe he designed, all of which can be traced back to decisions he made. And some of those things are reprehensible, horriffic...even "evil."

All I'm asking is for a technical term to describe those things that God does/plans/intends that we don't like. And for news stories to attribute those things to the same cosmic hand.

I just don't understand being willing to label those things that save a human life as God-determined and to label those things that would end a human life as other-than-God-determined.

[demwing]

519. That's your belief imposition, not mine

again, I don't think the way you think I think. Stop telling me I do, and then chastising me for it, you are quite literally wasting your time :)

[urgk]

561. Whoa, there cowboy. Now, you're just making things up.

I never said you thought a particular way. I did suggest, however, that you try thinking in a particular way. Take my suggestion or don't, but please don't accuse me of doing things that are, clearly, only happening in your mind.

And I wasn't chastising you for anything before. I am now. It may help you to put the two comments side by side to see if you can tell the difference.

[wisteria]

277. I say it is a miricle in some ways. Things could have still gone terrible wrong

and when you have to facture in mother nature you just never know.

[demwing]

289. Agreed

things could have gotten worse, fast.

I feel happy that it all came out well, regardless of who gets the credit.

And BTW, if I said I give science the credit, and still see it as a miracle, would that be a contradiction?

[urgk]

581. Well, then, it's settled. It's a miracle. Things COULD have gone horribly wrong.

For instance, the Germans could have annexed Chile, then burn, shot or starved millions of miners. It was their abiding faith that kept something awful like that from happening. Thank God above that these miners knew how to pray.

[demwing]

594. Who brought in faith?

not I

[polmaven]

474. Absolutely!

I am really, really sick of the bashing. DU people of faith are not the religious crazies, but there is never a distinction made by those who hate all of us so much.

The vast majority of us are pro gay rights, pro choice, pro evolution, and pro science. I have seen it stated, several years ago, on this board, the thought that God is why, science is how.

[akbacchus_BC]

119. Kicking for Malaise n/t

[Lucian]

127. I totally agree.

[Name removed]

141. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

142. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[yellerpup]

159. Didn't Massey say...

"Those men knew the risks when they took the job." Chile obviously values their people. Awesome rescue, so well executed with discretion and compassion. Those miners are tough guys who know how to keep themselves together!

[seabeyond]

163. are you suggesting our rescue people and families would turn back and let die?

what kind of post is this.

why does this thread have to pit people against people

in their own self righteousness for agenda purpose, one way or another.

the very ugly that is being scorned. such hypocrisy

[yellerpup]

176. I am for people, especially for people working together

to help those who need help. I was recalling what the CEO of Massey Energy said after the failed rescue mission in one of his mines in the US. Within the past week it was posted here that a surprise inspection of his facilities uncovered huge safety violations. Nothing has changed about the way that corporation treats its workers. I am applauding the rescue efforts and the smart, compassionate way experts from all over the world anticipated how to bring the people trapped in the mine out safely. I am neither trying to pit people against people nor suggesting anything negative about rescuers in the USA. The rescuers worked their tails off trying to save lives; the CEO is the one who made the outrageous statement about "they knew what they were risking when they signed on to go into the mines." To me, his implications was--"not my fault." It was his fault and it was driven by greed and I believe that it was his interference that caused a tragic result despite the heroic efforts of the rescuers. I think you misunderstood the point I was trying to make.

Edit for typo

[seabeyond]

177. you take the greedy man who owns it and gives to everyone. dismiss all those working to help

all those in pain over the loss

easily dismiss them so you can focus on a greedy SOB and then make all of us that. all the times people have come together in the u.s. to help one another. time and time and time again.

and in your self righteous arrogance you ignore all that, pretend it isnt and give all of us the greedy SOB.

classy

[yellerpup]

178. Self righteous arrogance?

I think you own that one.

[seabeyond]

179. suggesting americans are not capable of helping one another? so you can

maintain your agenda.

right

[yellerpup]

181. I did not suggest anything of the sort.

You also own incoherence.

[seabeyond]

183. u.s. would let their miners die... yes, you did. it is in your posts. backpedal. nt

[yellerpup]

184. You are mistaken.

I'm not replying to any more of your unfounded, incoherent accusations.

[seabeyond]

186. the purpose of thread specifically to bash all christians. you took it another step to bash all

americans.

mob rules....

basking in hate.

[deutsey]

192. I should probably stay out of this, but I don't see where yellerpup bashes

Americans.

A greedy and insensitive corporate CEO? Yes.

:shrug:

[seabeyond]

197. " Chile obviously values their people. " as opposed to who? doesnt value

their people?

[deutsey]

206. That's not how I read it, but thanks for clarifying what you meant

The poster does on to clarify in a follow-up that she had no qualms with rescue efforts at the American mine. She's pointing out the CEO's callousness.

I don't think it's a stretch to say that corporate interests often devalue human life.

(Corrected yellerpup's pronoun).

[seabeyond]

207. i think the chilean corps were equally working out of greed. so the difference? nt

[deutsey]

210. Is there an equivalent quote about their insensitivity to the workers' safety?

[seabeyond]

211. he said it, he is backpedaling. poster below says the same. now

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9307127

we have a thread for it. first bash the christians... now lets bash all americans.

du at its best


edit: here we go, another thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9305367&mesg_id=9305367

[deutsey]

220. Well, again, I didn't take what yellerpup said that way (and she's not in the threads you cite?)

You're obviously seeing a lot of bashing here and on other threads. Honestly, that kind of thing irritates me too. After Katrina, though, I also think a lot of Americans are demoralized and especially after Bush (and decades of Republican reign), many more are cynical about our country's ability to overcome divisiveness.

I don't say that justifies bashing America.

I think you're misreading what yellerpup meant, that's all. Not picking a fight with you or anything.

[seabeyond]

222. you think i am misreading. i get that. i dont think i am. two opposing opinions.

it happens.

peace

[deutsey]

224. Indeed it does.

And that's how the whole dern human comedy keeps perpetuating itself across the sands of time...

[yellerpup]

205. Thank you. My point exactly.

:hi:

[yellerpup]

196. Obviously you are the one who basking in hate.

And you accuse me of hypocrisy! :rofl: I was giving an attaboy to the concerted effort to save lives. I do not 'bash all Americans."

[seabeyond]

198. " Chile obviously values their people. " so obviously who does not value their people? nt

[malaise]

348. The purpose of this thread is to give credit where it is due

It's as uncomplicated as that.

[seabeyond]

352. the credit would and always does go where it is deserved. never seen the rescuers unappreciated

the tone of your post was a start of christian bashing and permeates thru out the whole thread.

i am sure every one of those rescued and everyone of the family members and every person across the world values the effort that went into the save.

in your heart, intellectually, do you really challenge that?

[4_TN_TITANS]

162. Just emailed a coworker in Chile

about the outstanding response by the Chilean government. Here, when mine accidents happen miners simply perish and companies walk away with no accountability and no one going to jail, everyone forgets about it, and life goes on (for the lucky ones).

Absolutely shameful.

[seabeyond]

165. so, if our men were trapped, we would walk away and let them die....

self reflecting would be good about now

[cherokeeprogressive]

494. You're right. "Here, when mine accidents happen miners simply perish and companies walk away..."

I guess that's why I've NEVER seen a live broadcast from a mine site in the US where miners are trapped and rescue efforts are ongoing. Never. Nope, here, people just walk away. Uh huh.

What a bunch of happy horseshit.

[lunatica]

164. I think it is a miracle that people can actually work together to do the impossible

and succeed. That's a fucking miracle. That everyone got together without bickering it to death or vetoing it or standing in the way or selling themselves to do what was utterly crazy to even try doing.

[seabeyond]

166. i would be a fuckin miracle if we actually had a thread embracing the good in this event without

tearing someone else apart.

[madmom]

167. K&R ... science can be a wonderful thing.

[Cleanelec]

174. I'll bet it chaps the OP's ass

A lot of the miners are crossing themselves and saying a short prayer of thanks when they come out.

[seabeyond]

175. hang 'em.... nt

[malaise]

194. Not in the least

Individuals can believe what they want - on the other hand it is really stupid for their leaders and institutions to attempt to take credit for the use of science and technology when left to most of them them neither would exist. I'd like to have you demonstrate a creationist rescue.

[Cleanelec]

199. Why don't you ask the miners

Where was the technology the first 17 days they were down there with almost no food and very little water.

One thing is for sure. No God damned atheist had anything to do with their survival that first 17 days.

[ingac70]

228. They are just lucky "God" didn't let them get crushed to death.

;-)

[AlbertCat]

370. No God damned atheist had anything to do with their survival that first 17 days.

Neither did any god damned supernatural entity.


They sure didn't sit around waiting for Baby Jesus to come save them.

[Cleanelec]

404. The miners are religious men.

I know that chaps your ass, but deal with it.

[SkyDaddy7]

489. Calm down...

No GOD DAMN Christian prayer saved them in the first 17 days...It can easily be explained how they survived those first 17 days. So, I do feel sorry for you if you can't accept reality & be thankful for what science does for humanity. Religion had thousands of years to produce a better life for humans & it failed. Keep praying (talking to yourself) if that is what you want to do. But don't bitch & moan when those of us who embrace reality celebrate reality!

[seabeyond]

202. at what point did christian or anyone else give up using brain... for faith accomplishment only

at what point did du decide that if a person had faith they no longer valued science, education, thinking, producing, accomplishing?

because you have a small group of people in religion that rejects a mere part of science, you have given all christians (and i am assuming every other religion) the place of rejecting everything that is thinking, to feeling (faith). what kinda sense does that make. people of faith are in every part of our society successfully participating in all this. it is not all or nothing.

[urgk]

280. "I'd like to have you demonstrate a creationist rescue."

Agreed. I'd like to suggest that the historic record of death camps and genocide against people with Judeo-Christian beliefs makes the existence of such rescues highly unlikely.

God will save a handful of miners, but not...say...a million European Jews?

[seabeyond]

282. one has to be a creationist to be a christian? all of science is centered and only creationism?

are you two really promoting this concept, yet want to be viewed as "intelligent or educated" people?

[urgk]

297. Please don't question my education or my intelligence.

Especially in light of your...unusual grammatical style.

I agreed with the call for creationist rescues. There is nothing in my reply that said that creationism was the only form of Christianity. I'd also like to see a provable God-driven rescue of any sort. So would, I imagine, a lot of people in WWII Poland.

[seabeyond]

303. you lack of knowledge suggesting creationsm is christianity is evident. as it is suggesting that

a christian would ever suggest a person does nothing and wait for their faith to rescue. it shows the absurdity in you presentation of your christian bashing.

[urgk]

311. I would ask that all future correspondence between us....

be written in accordance with commonly accepted grammatical constructs. While I admire your daring in venturing, John Cage -like, into newer, less conventional modes, I find it increasingly difficult to follow your thoughts.

Your cooperation in this matter will help the dialogue considerably.

Thank you.

[seabeyond]

318. really, it is just the challenge on proving the statement that all christians are creationists

and all christians believe only in miracle work and christians ignore science and hard work.

your very own bigotry.

cant really stand up to the challenge can you

so much easier in mass mob of insult. generally the way bullying works.

[urgk]

323. I'm sorry to keep doing this, but I have to ask you to please...

...follow the standard rules of English if you'd like to have a discussion. My "bigotry," as you call it, toward understandable forms of communication, is simply an effort to get you to make understandable accusations, generalizations and logical fallacies so that I can dispatch them quickly.

Thank you.

[seabeyond]

326. bah hahahah. i really dont care. you dont have omnipresent of all powerful on du

to make me post what you demand i do

fuckin lmao.

you say a bunch of stupid about christians and cant stand up to it

[urgk]

343. Perfect examples. Thank you. Let's have a teaching moment, shall we?

"you say a bunch of stupid about christians and cant stand up to it"

Here, you use the word "stupid" as an adjective, modifying nothing. "Stupid" should be followed by the word or concept it is modifying. Unless, of course you're purposefully toying with the language, in which case you should give us some contextual clue to let us know that you are doing it on purpose. Otherwise, how am I to know exactly what you disagree with in order to immediately (and artfully) point out how you are wrong?

"you dont have omnipresent of all powerful on du...to make me post what you demand i do"

While I appreciate the end rhyme, there are parts of this that just puzzle me. "Omnipresent of all powerful"? Wow. The problem here is that you are saying I don't have "omnipresent" - an adjective. That's like saying "You don't have dazzling." Or "you don't have fuzzy." Or "You don't have skillful."

"Sure," I imagine you saying, "but I've modified it - 'you don't have omnipresent of all powerful.'" Which is a valiant effort, but now it's just a sort of prepositional phrase modifying an adjective. Now it's like saying "You don't have massive about circumstantial." Or "You don't have miniscule under organic."

But, please, keep trying. I'd eventually like to have this discussion.

[seabeyond]

347. ah, see.... you are so concerned with the dotting of the i's that i dont give a shit. so, didnt

bother to even read your post.

you do this to NOT have a conversation on your disrespect, because you cannot defend. so you play a game.

you are as bad as the christians you demean. there is no difference between you and they.

[urgk]

362. I don't believe you.

I think you read it.

[AlbertCat]

379. Boy, seabeyond! Got a chip on your shoulder?

Sorry you think mentioning Creationists makes you go all ballistic. No one has even suggested Creationism is all of Christendom, But Creationists are all yours. Christians must claim them because they aren't with any other group.

Just more hyper-sensitivity of the religious when their absurdities are pointed out.

[seabeyond]

381. interesting projecting all kinds of falsehoods at me for an argument.

i would not even know where ot begin to correct your post. i imagine it would be a waste of time anyway. you are not about understanding another. but dissing a group of people.

[urgk]

180. But it IS a miracle.

Any time God stops trying to f*** you up. I mean, there he is, several millennia into His plan to drown, bash, kidney fail, sodomize, war crime, suicide bomb, starve, terrify, or otherwise coerce you into loving Him, and rather than letting you die, He changes His infinite mind and lets you live.

It's pure, wise and just. It's love with a capital L. It's the warm, enveloping Goodness that shined from Ike Turner whenever he finally decided to take his hands off her windpipe and let Tina breathe again.

Saints be praised! God has decided, once again, not to f*** somebody up!

[kurtzapril4]

216. It was the will of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

That the miners will live to mine another day. They were touched by his noodly appendage!

[urgk]

221. One tentacle rescueth. The other slammeth the mine shut to begin with.

As He had planned it since time began. FSM be praised. When He's not trying to seriously eff us up.

[kurtzapril4]

472. The FSM

is a complicated being. He smiteth that which does not please him, and the rocks displeasethed(?)him, as did the miners.

He just wanted to scare them a little bit, in other words. Psych!

[urgk]

562. He IS the great older brother in the sky.

Who will punch you in the face, then make you tell him he's king of the universe.

[HereSince1628]

185. Unfortunately the OP did not stop after sentence 2.

Science is about knowing and we know that even irrational belief proves useful at times.

I wouldn't dismiss out of hand that things as irrational as faith and hope when you are under 2000 feet of rock with no way out are possibly of considerable psychological value.

[seabeyond]

189. not to mention the mentality on this thread that IF you have faith, you no longer use brain.

this is one of the most ridiculous threads i have seen on attacking a group.

[wisteria]

283. It is a shame it has become such. I believe in God and miracles,

and I do not consider myself to be uninformed or stupid.

[seabeyond]

291. advocating that a science teacher cannot be a christian and teach evolution. who is the uniformed

now

sad

[urgk]

563. By definition, "faith" means dismissing evidence for irrational belief.

When you make decisions based on "faith," you aren't using your reason. To say it another way - when the "faith" switch is on, the "brain" switch is off.

[seabeyond]

566. bullshit. you then can say the same with any emotion. that just is not true. it is not one or

another.

it is to have trust, but it does not mean all switches are off. and that is the ridiculous argument you and others give to believers that is flat out wrong. yet you continue to give it to people and ignore. religion and faith was never about shtting down, but enhancing. adn using all, not a limited amount.

in religion you would not be doing your job if you shut the brain down. it is a bullshit statement. always has been, always will be and you continually saying it just shows your own lack of knowledge.

[urgk]

567. You are absolutely incorrect. Wrong. Astoundingly, almost inconceivably so.

"Faith" is not an emotion. Not by ANY conceivable definition.

1. strong or unshakeable belief in something, esp without proof or evidence.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.

It, BY DEFINITION, means to believe anyway or to believe without knowledge. Otherwise, people would just use the word "knowledge."

The trouble we are having is many fold, but I'll try to boil it down to a few select problems:

1. Your inner dialogue doesn't match reality. That is, you are functioning within a set of circumstances that you perceive as "real," when, in fact, they only exist to you.
2. We are engaged in two completely different activities. Let me draw an anlogy: I'm running a race. That is, I'm following a particular course, guided by a particular set of rules, towards an end goal. You, on the other hand, are sort of flitting about, getting fitted for shoes, snapping photos, wandering through the park cooing at pigeons, stopping to examine a manhole, watching the clouds break apart, but pretending all the while that you're actually racing. Every once in a while, you declare victory and make a grab for the trophy, call me a cheater, swear like a sailor and then jog in place, mumbling to yourself.

This is not a discussion. Not on both sides, anyway.

[seabeyond]

568. the problem is, there are experiences you are clueless and have never experienced

yet you want to be the one to explain and identify them. it does not work. you have no info to share because you are clueless, because you have not experienced.

it is like the person that has not had a child, or raised a child but wants to tell a person that has.... what it is to raise a child. you can have an intellectual knowledge, but you have no experience. so as a mom, i can tell you where youa re wrong, but it is meaningless to you.

you are wrong.

the brain does not shut off.

one can have faith, a gnowledge that is meaningless to you because you have not experienced.

people, strong majority have had faith from beginning of time. and continued on with academics, science, technology, medical, and every other thinking process there is. reality shows that one can have faith and THINK at the same time. you want to give faith an all comsuming of who the person it. it is a perspective, a piece of.... nothing more

there is so much you dont have a concept of, that people dont even bother to discuss

because your MIND is shut and does no good anyway.

[urgk]

570. Your absolute lack of reasoning floors me.

As does your inability to track through the conversation logically. I stand by what I said - we are engaged in two different activities. I'm trying to play tennis against someone who is waxing a surfboard. I'm trying to fence with somebody who's playing with a yo-yo. I'm trying to have a debate with someone who is wandering through the language, picking phrases as if they were wildflowers and presenting the whole disparate bouquet to me as if it actually means something.

Your beliefs about the meaning of the word "faith" do not override the definition. The moment a person acts out of "faith" he/she is acting outside of reason. Neither your conviction nor your constant swearing changes that. As the saying goes, you are welcome to your own opinion, but not your own facts.

[seabeyond]

571. you are trying to argue something you have no experience with ergo no knowledge

regardless of your preceived knowledge.

it is simple as that.

the best you can do is say.... havent experienced or seen, dont know wtf you are talking about. meaningless to you. and let it go. you can't go any further.

you. are. clueless.

[urgk]

574. Oh, e.e. comments...how I love your posts for their artistry.

The format makes it more digestible, and for that I thank you. But, over all, the message stays both bizarre and unclear, yet convinced of its own unquestionable brilliance.

You and another I disagree with would be the best of friends. And the words that flew between you would flitter and twinkle in the porch light, like directionless moths, caught between two dusty bulbs.

[seabeyond]

575. see.... i had faith. now you are getting it. you are that good.

:toast:

[urgk]

578. Speaking of writers, have you ever read the work of Paul Sheldon?

I get the distinct feeling that you would be his biggest fan.

[seabeyond]

579. i dont know that i have. i LOVE reading. a book a day or day and half. love to read.

thanks for the name. i will check it out.

[OmahaBlueDog]

190. The miners themselves say their faith has sustained them during the disaster

Obviously, a lot of logic and technology went into the rescue. There's been some very good luck, too.

[pipi_k]

212. Science, technology and good luck....

Yep.

Totally agree.


IMO, a "miracle" would have been if God had drilled that rescue shaft and sucked the miners up to the surface all by himself.


But I guess he was too busy planning disasters to inflict on other countries that piss him off.

[ingac70]

229. +1

[urgk]

481. Well said...

"IMO, a "miracle" would have been if God had drilled that rescue shaft and sucked the miners up to the surface all by himself.


But I guess he was too busy planning disasters to inflict on other countries that piss him off."

[Daemonaquila]

232. But faith in what?

You don't need faith in god(ess)(es) to get that psychological boost. I'm sure many believe in god. I also suspect that quite a few of them had faith in the skill and good will of their co-workers and rescuers. Hope and belief that someone will reach out a helping hand is what's going on here. No faith in the supernatural is needed for that.

We can be happy for them being rescued, and happy that they were able to hang on mentally due to hope and belief in any darned thing that aided them. We just shouldn't start thanking "god" for the brilliant efforts of the people who were responsible for saving these people.

[pipi_k]

271. I think the "faith" part in a deity makes sense

even though I'm not religious.

As a former member of a 12 Step program, I didn't have a belief in God, but I did have a Higher Power.

It doesn't matter what that Higher Power is, just as long as it's a power higher than ourselves, which would logically (IMO) mean that it would also have to be a power higher than my fellow human beings.


Sometimes believing in that Power meant having to let go of any expectation at all...basically trusting that what's supposed to be, will be. That's not easy to do.

I think that as long as people believe that what will be, will be, it's not arrogant. It's when people believe that they were saved by God because they were "chosen"...well, that's highly insulting and hurtful to people whose loved ones weren't saved...like they were somehow NOT good enough.

[Daemonaquila]

465. Your last paragraph is correct, but contradicts the prior.

You are totally right in how you describe the arrogance of believing that one was "chosen" over others. However, that last paragraph contradicts the idea of belief in a higher power. "What will be, will be," is not really the same as believing in a higher power. In the miners' situation, I don't think any of them would be thinking that way. They might believe that God would bless them and see them through, or they might believe that they'll be saved by friends, colleagues, and specialists, or both. But I don't believe any of them just let go of all expectations. There is nothing dissonant about considering other human beings a higher power than one's own self, particularly when those human beings are all working in a team to do what one is powerless to do for one's self.

[OmahaBlueDog]

430. Miner Mario Sepulveda - "I reached out for God"

-snip-

They emerged looking healthier than many had expected and even clean-shaven, and at least one, Mario Sepulveda, the second to taste freedom, bounded out and thrust a fist upward like a prizefighter.

"I think I had extraordinary luck. I was with God and with the devil. And I reached out for God," he said as he awaited the air force helicopter ride to a nearby hospital where all the miners were to spend 48 hours under medical observation.

**

From "19 miners free; Chile rescue past halfway mark" AP via Yahoo News

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/lt_chile_mine_collapse

[Daemonaquila]

471. Which is totally besides the point.

So what? Of course some of them believe in god. Maybe all of them do. That doesn't mean that god should be credited with squat. They held themselves together for 2 months any way the could, believing in many things from a god to the good will and skill of their rescuers. A person's means of coping is entirely a different issue than people taking the credit away from the humans who worked their tails off to save them, and calling it a "miracle."

[OmahaBlueDog]

530. It's precisely the point.

Their faith is part of what gave them the courage to go on when everything seemed hopeless.

Yes, they had their own vast well of intrinsic strength and ability. Their faith in God played a part in their ability to harness those qualities.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

234. Dude, if I was trapped in a hole half a mile underground for two months...

...I'd be seeing yellow, purple-polkadotted kangaroos with Carmen Miranda hats singing the Internationale backwards. God and Jesus would be the least weird thing I was seeing.

[urgk]

274. One question.

Would they at least sing to the tune of "Chiquita Banana"? It seems like such a waste otherwise.

[madrchsod]

412. can i have some of what you took..please?

[liberation]

501. You mean, like their leader Luis Urzúa. Who will be the last one to be taken out of the mine...

... and thus becoming the person who has spent the most time underground?

The one who was the elected as the leader by the miners trapped, and the one whose father was executed by the fascist and ultra-religious Pinochet dictatorship for being a directive of the Chilean Communist Party. Only to have his step father, who was a socialist labor representative, die in the "caravan of death" that the Chilean military junta subjected to many members of the Chilean left? Yeah, he sounds like a totally religious person.

Faith and hope are used too many times as synonyms when they are rather different things.

The point is that some of the miners may have been religious people, some clearly weren't. But this is a personal of human endurance and triumph over an adverse set of circumstances. IMHO attributing human achievements to an invisible entity of which intervention there is absolutely no proof of... cheapens said human achievements. When you dig a hole into the ground, many things can go wrong due to the laws of nature and the realities of our physical world. When things do go wrong, it is our understanding of those laws of nature and our physical reality which can also help humans rectify the problem. Without having to recourse to a deity and some kind of weird double plus secret devious plan...

[malaise]

522. Excellent post

:hi:

[Enthusiast]

200. K&R

I agree.

[AndrewP]

209. A-fucking-men

Thank you rescuers!!!

[treestar]

215. Absolutely!

And these threads bashing the US are inexcusable too!

[seabeyond]

219. bashing christians ... good. bashing u.s.,.... bad. got it. nt

[Name removed]

218. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wisteria]

287. I consider my faith to be more than a silly superstition. Our founding fathers had faith in God. n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

511. That is a brash generalization

Not all of them did. Hell the Jefferson Bible should be required readiing even today.

Yes a few were, but there is a reason for the Establishment clause.

:banghead: against national creation myths, this particular one goes all the way to the Dominionist movement. But hey, that thing 'bout Pursuit of Happiness came from a pretty SECULAR and actually Lockian world viiew.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

225. Yes, anyone who is religious could not believe in science and therefore would have the miners die.

Seriously?

What a dumb OP.

[nadinbrzezinski]

261. No what is dumb is even suggesting

That god had anything to do with this. It was human ingenuity, and hard work, period.

[seabeyond]

266. well, arent you the oh so gracious, calling all these people that suffered "dumb". nt

[Tommy_Carcetti]

276. Without getting too theological, there's differing views on what might constitute a miracle.

There's the "divine intervention" view, where God is believed to directly involve Him/Her/Itself into human affairs.

But there's also the concept of "miracles of circumstance", where human and scientific involvement assists itself in a situation making a seemingly impossible or unlikely task possible. Some may call this luck, but whatever the circumstance may be, and for whatever reason, the right things happened at the right time. And the right persons involved themselves at the right time.

As for "divine intervention" view of miracles, it may be a leap of faith (pardon the pun) for someone who is both religious and believes in a scientific order of natural events to subscribe to such a viewpoint. But the "miracles of circumstance" is far more reconcilable for such a person.

And don't fool yourself. There are plenty of people who may have religious beliefs who also view the world with a scientific eye. Despite what the extremes of both sides of the debate would have you believe, they are not necessarily exclusive from one another.

[nadinbrzezinski]

322. I am addressing the extremes

But reality is that many scientists don't see a god anywhere. And those who do, far from human experience, see this god or god particle at the moment of creation... That big bang you know. That means that creator really has no time or interest in an accident on Earth. As I keep asking where was Gofd at Aushwitz? What about the Armenian Holocaust? The Killing Fields? And was he okay with the mass murder committed in his name? That's the case I want nothing to do with that God. Oh and Theologians, you know this well, really have no way to justify that for an all seeing god. Oh and free will is a nice cop-out.

[wisteria]

292. Human ingunuity created by God, faith that the hard work would pay off,

and a beautiful day in which to save the miners.

[nadinbrzezinski]

316. Or was God created by man?

In his own image oh 'bout 10k years ago to replace the female goddesses of a hunting gatherer society. Again, after our own image and needs... Just saying...

[urgk]

380. It's funny how even the concept of God evolves in the way Darwin described.

The understanding/interpretation of God that is most likely to survive is that understanding/interpretation that can best withstand the sum of our current knowledge about the universe.

The God meme most likely to be believed and passed to the next generation survives. Which is why, like our domesticated animals, the idea of God keeps getting friendlier.

[nadinbrzezinski]

389. Yep, also people start asking pesky questions

Like where was god in insert disaster or war here.

God actually is to a point a chemical reaction in the brain. But when neuroscientists point to how much like cocaine it becomes for religious radicals (insert religion here) people of faith become enraged.

Also the image of god changes by how we organize society. For hunter gatherers women were the source of life and all that, but for city dwellers not so much. Women should be domestic creatures to be seen but not heard...why God became a father figure instead of a mother figure.

[urgk]

396. And that an all-knowing, prime mover must have *chosen* those wars...

...rather than the lesser evil of just allowing them.

I've had debates with friends and online...um...non-friends about the incompatibility of the following three facets of God:

1. Omniscient.
2. Prime Mover/Designer of Everything.
3. Loving.

To me it seems obvious that the three are incongruous, but it seems like the God adaptation that says he creates humans who are unable to understand him allows the logic to just spontaneously fail without being disproven and for the God meme to just keep plowing forward.

About the role of women, I heard from an aboriginal guide in Australia that in his culture there was a clear division of labor between men and women, but that neither was ascribed more importance. There was "women's business" and "men's business," and both were equally important. It was, for instance, women's business to know how to take fire from campsite to campsite and to deal with snakes. Young boys were taught (and we saw this in petroglyphs) if they saw a snake, to leave it alone and go get a sister, mother or aunt. They'd know what to do.

I don't know how wide-spread that was in terms of geography or culture, but it sure seems like a good idea to split a hunter gatherer culture into equally important areas of expertise.

[nadinbrzezinski]

400. Book recommendation

The Chrysalis Effect...

Also hunter gatherer cultures, or those closer to them have a different way of dealing with the split. In the lMaya culture in the South of Mexico women become THE authority regarding herbs and their uses. As a medic I got to work with Doña María and one reason she taught me a few of the secrets is exactly my gender. Mind you not all, I'm Ládino after all. Mind you the syncretism of faiths is incredible, and while Christ is in the pantheon he is not that big in the pantheon. They are concerned about balance and preserving the great mother too.

Yes I lost my religion after asking those questions, why? A little hard to keep it when seeing a dead five year old. But their religion looks at a lot more balance in the world. Ours looks for control and command of the world, domination to be specific.

[urgk]

413. I may have to read it just becasue of the 1-star review on Amazon.

"This book is therefore and insidious undermining to all belief structures involving an immutable God."

Heh.

What frightens me most about organized religion is the way it controls the "base" of Maslow's hierarchy of needs (not that I'm all that well-versed in Maslow). The Bible, for instance, tells you where, how and with whom you can have sex, what you can eat and how you can cover your body. It tells you that there is no safety, and that there is in fact damnation, in the world outside of Christianity. And then the church steps up to tell you who to marry, who to befriend, and makes itself the underlying structure for all of your social interactions.

Once a belief system controls those fundamental needs, it's no wonder a person will follow the rest of its teachings with such conviction.

[nadinbrzezinski]

457. And all systems taken to the extreme have that danger n/t

[LTX]

427. It's also funny, in a way, that belief in God is likely

a product of the way in which the human brain evolved, with synaptic recognitions of the juxtaposition between cause and effect giving rise to the side effects of abstract reasoning, tool making, and attributions of unknown cause to unseen powers. Almost makes one think that God had a hand in evolution.

[nadinbrzezinski]

517. That is one explanation

Then thee is biochemistry. FMRI are just amazing!

[LTX]

557. Biochemical and structural evolution obviously coincide with cognitive evolution,

but structural evolution is not entirely satisfactory in explaining subsequent developmental use of the evolved structures. Finlay, Darlington and Nicastro have a good 2001 article in Behavioral and Brain Sciences dealing with covariance of brain structures as the underpinning of brain evolution, but ultimately, the structural explanation can only go so far in explaining the rather remarkable cognitive variations in species. Think parrots, octopi, elephants, and great apes.

[wisteria]

445. If there was nothing to the creation of man by God, it would have been dismissed and forgotten

centuries ago, like your suggestion of female goddesses of a hunting and gathering society.

[nadinbrzezinski]

514. I suggest we are on the way to do exactly that

The almost brash reaction we have seen against the emergence of this. culture is part of it. Why we are seeing many scared people rant and rave at the death of the modern religious order. Not me saying it, but observers. This started in the Enlightenment and it is just accelerating.

[TomClash]

230. Absolutely correct nt

[Drops_not_Dope]

231. says you and

the Vatican.

[TBF]

235. K&R nt

[gblady]

236. to quote a great scientist,

"There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle." --A. Einstein

[Hosnon]

246. I think Einstein was referring to existence itself (as we know it) as highly improbable.

Not impossible so as to require divine intervention.

[urgk]

256. Which, I think is perfectly valid.

So, I look at something like this:

"The victim was beaten and sodomized (the gang claimed he broke a rule), "They put me in the middle of the chair. They asked me 'are you gay?' I was like 'nah.' They was like 'you did this?' I said 'yea.' 'You did this with the gay guy?' I was like 'yea.' That's when they started hitting me."

And I ask myself "which is it? Everything is a miracle? Or nothing is?" And the answer doesn't make me put my money in a collection plate.

[Deep13]

263. The result is the same.

It's like a class where every student is above average. It ignores what the word "average" means. Miracles by definition are exceptional. If everything is a miracle, then nothing is because miracles would no longer be exceptional.

Besides--and for now I am taking your word for it that Einstein actually said that--Einstein was found of religious words, but he did not mean them in their ordinary sense. When he spoke of god, he was refering to the laws of nature and not to any purposeful, personal, interventionist god. When he spoke of being religious, he meant the sense of wonder he (and Spinoza) felt when considering the vast universe. He was very clear about that when read in context. While anyone is free to redefine any word, I submit that the religious words that Einstein used do not mean what Einstein used them to mean.

[DainBramaged]

243. Why isn't this in the religion forum?

It's been NOTHING but an open flame-fest on Christians. Is this DU's official position, that it's OK to bash Christians and their beliefs? How progressive.

[seabeyond]

250. i have been wondering, myself. nt

[DainBramaged]

275. Seeing the recs, and seeing how people responded to religion my poll yesterday

and how fast it got sent to the Religion forum, I have no doubt in my mind now where DU as a whole stands. No doubt. And it is troubling that a group of people who CLAIM to be Liberals/Progressives can be so hating of a Belief they don't share. God forbid you make a comment about anything they think is bigoted and you are toasted, but bash God and a person's beliefs, free for all.

For shame on DU.

[seabeyond]

279. "For shame on DU." it is the hypocrisy. the very thing the legitimately gripe about with christian

they are exactly doing.

exactly

and inability to recognize. or an unwillingness. which again, is the same thing the fundamentalist christian do when i talk about the hate the project and feed.

i dont even have a piece in this battle but the overwhelming urge to defend the underdog. and unlike any other t=world i have been in, on du... that is the christian.

i dont even have to stand up for the muslims, like i do for the christians.

[nadinbrzezinski]

258. Applauding human ingenuity

Is far from bashing Christians, just saying, if Christians feel attacked by this perhaps they are not so sure in their faith. Bu the way this IS a different world view. But the humanist view is shall we say not approved off in the modern-day US, even though it is far more in line with founding principles.

[seabeyond]

267. you make hyperbole statements then say, why do you feel attacked. oh, it is your fault

people stating that a person who has faith is incapable of believing in science, or effort or hard work or anything else but do nothing faith is

dumb

[nadinbrzezinski]

288. Calling this a miracle is hyperbole

And as I said above having been in a few "miracles" myself sorry if what I seenis very hard work from HUMANS. No divine intervention anywhere to be seen.

[seabeyond]

293. and a christian does not dismiss hard work because they are christian. nor science. uninformed

people, or limited thinkers give that to christians. on this thread anyway.

doesnt make it so.... and that is hyperbole, and bashing, and disrespectful

but it is ok

because it is just one of those christians.

[nadinbrzezinski]

305. As i said a small group

Within the majority feels attacked. Nowhere in the OP was there an overt attack. In fact, and I agree with the OP misusing terms diminishes the work of humans. Now you want to beleve this is prayer and miracle, by all means do so. The secular humanists you fear are finally speaking out and calling magical thinking well magical thinking. I hate to say this, but there is a reason why many (I will not say most). Scientists arengodless atheists, and engineers trend for creation science. And truthfully it may be brain chemistry. Religion might very well be encoded in most humans...

But if you feel attacked this is really about you.

[seabeyond]

309. dont tell me what i want to believe "prayer and miracle". that is not my issue and i have not

made one reference to this. a totally bogus argument.

"secular humanists you fear ". fear? point out my fear? more fabrication for you to create your own made up story. show me at any point where you see fear. or where i am not a humanist, secular or otherwise.

blindingly ignore the bashing....

no, it isnt about me, but you tried to make it that.

what i am not into is people telling others how they are suppose to feel....

[nadinbrzezinski]

310. Read your posts

Have a good day...

[seabeyond]

321. so you fabricate, yet cant stand up to being called out on it. gotcha

talk about christians and their story telling to insulate their own beliefs.

[nadinbrzezinski]

325. Read your posts again, now have a good life

[seabeyond]

328. again, you are projecting to me what i believe. but you are clueless what i believe

and you run away from your accusations. you did exactly as those very christians you are griping about. yet, you refuse to acknowledge. which is again, what those christians do, also.

you are no better than those you point the finger at.

[Marengo]

565. Simply because YOU don't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

"No divine intervention anywhere to be seen"

Hubris

[DainBramaged]

269. Wow, you don't see it? I am SURE in my Faith, always have been

Bigots get banned here, but time after time the haters of religion get off scott free.

[nadinbrzezinski]

294. No I don't see it.

What I see is a small group within a MAJORITY feeling attacked. And of course lashing at a minority, significant minority mind you, that does not share your world view. Perhaps there are miracles in the world, but technical matters are not, and the term is damn overused.

[seabeyond]

298. lashing? because one is challenging the bash fest that is lashing at atheist?

show me where a poster battling the bash fest lashed at an atheist, challenging, demeaning their beliefs. one post

i dont have a stake in defending christianity, but i always challenge the hypocrisy

[nadinbrzezinski]

308. Challenge whatever you want

As Mahrer put it so well, it is time fer them evil secular humanists to no-longer remain silent.

This is not an attack. What atheists get subjected to by fearful rekigious people is constant. Americans are the most religious modern economy. It is no coincidence we are falling behind. Having presidential candidates deny evolution is a smidgen of a problem, and that is the problem. If you feel attacked or insulted I am not really sorry.

[seabeyond]

324. and i have always felt a responsibility to stand up with atheist being attacked.

i can also recognize a thread where the christian is being attacked. not being a hypocrite, i would have to stand up for their right, as much as the atheist.

when the atheist promotes that christians do not believe in science, hard work, humanity, or tht a christian can be a science teacher and teach evolution, or that miners will thank god and not the rescue workers.... ya

gonna challenge it.

[Goblinmonger]

405. They've been deleted

Along with some posts by atheists.

But I'll go with my favorite example from this thread. Your buddy called me a Klan member because I asked for some support for the claim they made that the U of Minn study showing atheists as the least liked minority in the US. None of the "I'm just fighting for people to not be mean bigots" group came to my aid (not that I care for me personally) but it gets a little old when you are only going after the atheists and just brush off what is said to the atheists.

[seabeyond]

414. didnt read it. you didnt point out the post. only a part of top section i have not read

this is a thread of bullies. bully mentality. of late, we have had a lot of threads on bullying. this is how it progresses. there is talking respectfully of differing opinions. and them there is mocking, ridicule, name calling, ect....

[Goblinmonger]

423. My post #69 is still left up

where I point out that it was Christians who "burned crosses."

I'm holding my breath to see you publicly tell your buddy that stuff like that should stop. That it is mean, hateful, bigotry. Go ahead. Love to see it. I'm quite sure I'm on their ignore list by now.

[seabeyond]

432. i read only 69. you use bigotry, KKK, cross burning to shame christians....

and you want me to pat you on the back. if you dont have a simple understanding that had to do with hate and bigotry using religion, but not the religion, then that shows your own inability to be open minded to the different elements in religion. that argument is as lame as giving all christians creationism.

what ever i am suppose to stand up for you, i did not see it in 69 and the post you responded to was deleted. i do not know what was said. i am not going to read a thread of pettiness.... to prove myself to you.

i am not posting to defend christianity. i have no desire, nor the ability. i have issue with blanket attacks and bashing of fellow duers with differing views than yours.

[Goblinmonger]

435. My initial response is still up about the U of Minn study

Then the deleted message told me, in response to that request, to "go burn a cross" if I hated religious people so much and that my strawman was just anti-Christian bigotry.

My use of KKK and cross burning was a reminder that your buddy--in an attempt to say hateful, bigoted, and mean things--used the wrong group to condemn. It wasn't the anti-Christians that burned crossed but the Christians. I don't know how that's shaming Christians, exactly.

"i have issue with blanket attacks and bashing of fellow duers with differing views than yours." I understand this is just a wording issue, but that sentence speaks volumes to me. It is about bashing fellow DUers with views different than mine. Not those bashing me for having different views than them. I didn't expect you to read through it and call out your buddy because I know that would never happen. I've come to expect that from people.

[seabeyond]

440. " your buddy". you post in a manner of attack then act innocent.

i have never respected that form of dishonest argument. still dont.

you are bashing their views. (it is not my view). they are not bashing your views. i dont get where you have the issue. but i am done here. pretty disgusted with the ugliness in this thread. the contempt of fellow duers. this basic disrespect of differing views.

[Goblinmonger]

443. OK, you just need to stop acting like you are on a high horse.

I told you the exchange. If telling me, in response to my post #62, that I am a hateful anti-Christian and that I should just go "burn a cross" which pretty clearly calling me a Klan member isn't something you are willing to say is "ugly," then I can only see it meaning:

1. you are calling me a liar and that the deleted posts don't say what I say they say.
2. you really don't care about "ugliness" when it is applied to atheists.

Please explain the 3rd option that might exist.

I was called a Klan member. I think I get to attack at that point.

[seabeyond]

444. you self gratifying interpretation of others words cant be trusted as i have watched you

attribute things to me that are simply not true. wrong, to say bluntly. so how am i going to jump into a conversation you had with another, that i was not a part in, when i cannot even see what was said.... if i even wanted to participate in something like that,, which i wouldnt.

and talking high horse, well hell, a little pot and kettle going on.

you can have the last word. i am done

[urgk]

447. Might intolerance of atheism also be called "bigotry"?

Because it seems there are defenders of religion on this thread who have replied by cursing, making ad hominem attacks, and generally showing what I would describe as an intolerance for any belief outside of their conviction in the existence of a Judeo-Christian god.

Others have been more than polite and conversational. Which, I believe, is the only way to discuss these matters.

[seabeyond]

455. point out where anyone bashed atheism.... nt

[urgk]

462. Most of them have been deleted by moderators.

As they should have been.

[malaise]

394. Well said sis

I don't know why anyone believes this thread has anything to do with religious bashing. This thread is about giving credit where it is due.

[seabeyond]

395. my gosh... those that are christians have been ridiculed, mocked, had fabrications created about

them and their beliefs

this thread has hurt people

and you refuse to see it? to ask innocently, why?

wow

it is a thread of bullying. the very thing we have many threads discussing. a mob of bullying.

[malaise]

509. It can only hurt if you're claiming that

this had anything to do with gods.

[seabeyond]

513. it has to do with simple disrespect of fellow posters on du that stands up for and with

the very people ridiculing and mocking them.

and the denial on this thread is grand.

i am seeing the same posters that cry out for compassion of fellow man, and the pain they feel that we are not more respectful of another, and then the total dismissal of respect for fellow du posters.

like a bash fest and the best of people are playing in the mud, be truly less than who they normally are.

[Name removed]

385. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Deep13]

244. Agreed. It was Chile's Apollo 13 moment.

By thoughtfulness, effort and resourcefulness they pulled off an impossible rescue.

Any effort to credit divine intervention must first answer the question of why god allowed them to get stuck underground in the first place and why god has let so many die in mining accidents before.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

286. Funny that you mention Apollo 13.

Which I would wholeheartedly agree is an example of human inginuity prevailing in a potentially catastrophic situation.

Several days before the launch, pilot Ken Mattingly was grounded due a medical test indicating he tested positive for German Measles. While a personal setback for Mattingly, many people think Mattingly's grounding was a key component to the mission's ultimate success, as he was able to provide the mission control with critical information from an insider's point of view that others may not have been able to provide.

The positive test for Mattingly's German Measles ended up being an error.

But could one argue that the false positive may be considered a "miracle" to a certain extent. Not a miracle of divine intervention, but rather a miracle of circumstance that helped the ultimate success of the mission.

[Deep13]

302. I'm sure Mattingly was extremely helpful...

...and you may be right in thinking his help was critical. Still, Young, Collins and Gordon knew that command module as well as Mattingly did, as did Lovell himself who was CMP on A.VIII. Had Mattingly flown, he would have been up where the problem was and may have been as effective there. I doubt he would have prevented the explosion since that was actually a manufacturing (or rather a remanufacting) defect. The tank had been pulled from Apollo X when it was found to be defective. It was sent to the facture to be fixed and then installed in XIII. In addition to the present and past CM pilots, there were the guys who made the capsule and the back-up crew who knew as much about it.

I think the real "miracle" was that the explosion did not happen on the return trip after the LM had been used and discarded.

[Hosnon]

245. Agreed. nt.

[ensho]

257. agree

nt

[butterfly77]

260. Kicked&Recommended!

:kick:

[hamsterjill]

262. But faith is a very powerful thing.

Miracle or no miracle - it matters not except for the miners themselves.

Most of them, in fact, I believe ALL of them, have professed their faith in God during this time, and reliance on that faith has no doubt aided them in enduring this horrible situation for so long.

Now whether you believe in God or do not believe in God, that is your individual right. But if these men were aided by their belief system, then I'm glad that they gained strength from having that faith. And it is certainly their right to have that faith.

[seabeyond]

268. "it matters not except for the miners themselves." screw the miners. this is about duer

christian bash.

[hamsterjill]

278. Yeah, so I am learning!!

n/t

[seabeyond]

281. amazing huh? first all the empathy for miner until the realization minor too is embracing their

religion.

dump the minors. fuck em

funny in an odd kinda way

[Deep13]

285. I'm sorry to disagree, but I find that contemptible.

I'm sure some or all of the miners relied on religious faith to get through this. Any port in a storm. Had I been talking to them and they asked if if God would get them out, I would have said "yes." If they asked if the engineers and scientists knew how to get them out, again "yes." This crisis was about their survival and not anyones intellectual disagreements.

Generally, however, I find the suggestion that people ought to believe in irrational and impossible things--not because they are true--but because self-delusion is useful to be appallingly cynical. "Belief" means one accepts something as true or real. Tacitly agreeing with or encouraging irrational belief because it might be useful to that person is a kind condescension that says, you go right ahead with your quaint, backward thinking because your mind apparently needs it while mine does not.

Friends sometimes tell each other bad news and the worse the news, the better the friend who tells you. False friends offer false consolations. It is better to know the truth (which I think is actually more comforting than the fantasies of religion) and to make the best of that than to believe falsehoods. Belief in the irrational only encourages other, less benign irrational beliefs, often as a result of that same belief system. It is only because of the religious belief in divine order that people hate homosexuals as a violation of that divine order. The same with interracial marriage. It was once widely believed that god made the races and that mixing them was a kind of natural treason. Without the idea of divine purpose, the concept becomes untenable. Think of the centuries of evil that resulted from the perverse Christian doctrine of salvation through suffering.

There are all kinds of faith. Much of it is entirely justified. I have faith that my wife loves me and will do what she thinks is best for me. This is because she always has done so. Used in that sense, the word "faith" means something different than religious faith which has no basis in fact.

[hamsterjill]

312. I am a Christian

You wrote: "It is only because of the religious belief in divine order that people hate homosexuals as a violation of that divine order. The same with interracial marriage."

I can assure you that I don't hate homosexuals, and in fact, I was once married to someone of another race.

You can no more lump all Christians into one neat category, than you can any other group of human beings.

[DainBramaged]

317. Oh yes they can, they do it ALL the time here

and this thread has made that perfectly clear.......

[seabeyond]

331. yup. then they deny. pretend they didnt. seeing no different from this group than the christian

i regularly argue with about exactly the same thing.

same arguments

[DainBramaged]

334. If you are ANY Faith OTHER than a Christian, including non-believer here

you are treated with dignity here. But because the Right embraces a form of Christianity that is foreign to those of us who Believe, we are treated like lepers.

[seabeyond]

337. yup. and btw... i am not real sure what i am. i have such a convuloted repsect for all

cant really claim one, and claim all...

so i never argue my own beliefs... too many would be clueless and not worth the challenge.

i do respect a person to live their beliefs, embracing when hurting none, challenging when hurting others.

[Goblinmonger]

418. Yes, Muslims get a lot of respect.

So do Scientologists. And the Satanists always get a fair break, too.

You may want to climb down off that cross for a bit and see the world a little differently.

[JuniperLea]

500. I'm only seeing alleged Christians interjecting the word Christian here...

Not all religions are Christian... I think you are making assumptions.

[hamsterjill]

342. Doesn't mean that it's right!

I do see your point.

"They" have a right to their opinion, but I have just as much of a right to have MY opinion, as well. That's why they call this a discussion board. And although there are posters who post, and post and POST!!! trying to make their opinion seem the most dominant, I refuse to acquiesce. My opinion is no more important than anyone else's, but no less important either.

[DainBramaged]

344. Christians are bashed here relentlessly, but I never see Atheists being bashed by the Christians

on this board.


I wonder why???

[rainlillie]

357. The problem is some people don't know how to separate religious people from

religious extremist. This is why we have problems with people on the right, they paint all Muslims with the same brush. They can't comprehend that not all Muslims are terrorist. Just like not all Christians are homophobic , bigoted and intolerant.

[seabeyond]

376. yes. exactly. nt

[Goblinmonger]

439. Because you're blind to it?

Because you do it? "burn a cross" Sound familiar?

[seabeyond]

345. no more important than anyone else's, but no less important either.

the simple bottom line

respect

it is the lack of respect that is so disturbing on this thread. nobody likes to be treated with such disrespect. people will actually .... react to it. go figure.

[Deep13]

576. Who's "they?"

I speak for myself. I will not answer for what others say.

If you think you have a right not to have your religious claims challenged, then I can see how outspoken nonbelievers might piss you off. The trick is to realize that those you disagree are not required to pretend to respect unproven and often disproven claims just because they fall under the catagory of theology. There is no reason to have any more respect for religious claims than we do for claims of UFOs or bigfoot. While you may bristle at the comparison, the fact is you have no better reason for believing what you do than these fringe groups have for believing what they do. The sense of entitlement you feel that religion should be respected is entitrely in your mind and is not based in reality. If you want me to respect the idea that the gods of Christianity are real, then stop thowing a tantrum and give me some evidence. The idea that religion deserves respect is itself a religious prejudice based on the concept of blaspheme. Insisting that I share that prejudice is religious bigotry.

I do not nor have I ever thought that religious people are stupid or immoral or whatever. I DO think basing ones world view on frankly false ideas can lead to those conditions, but I never just supposed someone must be a moral or intellectual degenerate just because of religion. I have observed, unfortunately, that the more fervent ones religion is, the more likely one will be immoral, unethical, hypocritical and, frankly, stupid.

[urgk]

450. The quote doesn't seem to mean "all or most Christians hate homosexuals."

Rather that "all or most homophobia springs from religious belief."

Whether that is true is another matter (I tend to suspect that it might be, but have no real historical proof). But I just wanted to get you two on the same page.

[JuniperLea]

499. The poster didn't do that... you did..

Not all religious people are Christians.

[hamsterjill]

549. The subject WAS Christians

The subject was NOT all religious people. I was talking about myself here.

[JuniperLea]

586. Sorry, you are wrong...

I just reread the OP for the umteenth time... no mention of any one religion, only religion. Christianity was brought into the thread.

[hamsterjill]

588. My reply (to which you are now replying was NOT the OP).

Oh, good grief! I think it is you who are mistaken.

[JuniperLea]

591. The discussion was about religion as a whole until people brought in specific religions...

Is that too much?

[Deep13]

572. I wasn't lumping all in together.

I know many believers do not fall for the hate-traps. Still, while those in favor of civil rights may be acting out of religious, secular or just humanitarian motives, those opposed are almost entirely religious. Expressions like "unnatural" "meant to be" or "not what's supposed to happen" all presume some kind of divine order that gays, secularism, evolution, racial intermingling, unions and dissent from authority somehow subvert.

[leftstreet]

332. ..

What a thoughtful post. Thanks for sharing that

Kings and politicians have long encouraged 'religious-ness,' as our betters know the 'faithful' are in the habit of believing things that comfort them.

[urgk]

377. Beautifully said. (n/t)

[malaise]

399. A super post

Should stand alone. :hi:

[nadinbrzezinski]

516. But it is not for us to claim god

Is behind this. That is the point.

[hamsterjill]

583. If the miners want to claim that God is behind this.

That is their right. Others may not agree with what the miners say, but it is their (the miners') right to say what they think.

And if other people also wish to say the same thing, then it is their right to say it, too. People have the right to believe as they see fit for themselves as individuals. And each individual's belief is no one else's business.

[bertman]

273. Perfectly stated, malaise. Rec. nt

[Kalyke]

290. What's ironic here is that most of the rescued seem to think so.

You aren't there. They are.

I'll go with their version.

[seabeyond]

296. in the battle to diss christians they are dissing the very people they are supposedly empathetic

with and supporting and standing up for

twilight zone in oddities.

[Upton]

299. Those miners aren't exactly the most educated now are they?

The less educated one is, the more open to superstition one becomes.

[DainBramaged]

304. That's pretty bigoted

I have two degrees, and have NO problem believing in what you call superstition.

[Goblinmonger]

420. Studies have shown a clear correlation between education and atheism

Nobody has indicated a causation. But the reverse correlation would be true, as well. Lower education would indicate more likelihood of believing in a god.

[seabeyond]

306. ah, how the mighty turn... and bash that miner.... stupid dudes that they are

but you can set them straight.

[Kalyke]

320. I was breathlessly awaiting the first "dumb miner" slam.

Didn't take long.

[rainlillie]

372. I really couldn't tell you their educational backgrounds.

Your comment was very unnecessary and very uncool.

[wisteria]

301. +1 n/t

[urgk]

307. "Seem to think so..." explains it all.

And I don't find it ironic. I find it part and parcel of the whole religious system referred to in the OP. The system they were raised by taught them to turn to thank God for positive outcomes, but to ignore the fact that as the universe's Prime Mover and Designer, their God would also be responsible for all of the negative outcomes.

It's a very clever system which doesn't hold up to either logical or statistical scrutiny.

[Kalyke]

329. Actually, religion does not tell one to ignore negative outcomes.

Negative outcomes simply mean God answered "no," or that whatever we thought should be the outcome is not what God thought the outcome should be.

A parable for you:

A man was sitting on his front porch during a flood and the flood was up to the porch. As the man prayed for the Lord to save him from the flood, a neighbor rowing to higher ground paused, told the man to hop in the boat and he would take him to higher ground. The man on the porch replied, “No thank you! I have faith that the Lord is going to save me!” With that, the man in the boat rowed away.

The water kept rising and while the man was standing on his roof, praying for God to save him, a sheriff’s boat came by, the deputy yelled for the man to hop into his boat, and he would take him to higher ground. The man on the roof replied, “No thank you! I have faith that the Lord is going to save me!” With that, the sheriff’s deputy in the boat sped away to search for others who needed rescuing.

The man was now standing on top of his chimney, the floodwaters were up to his knees, and he was praying fervently for God to rescue him. A helicopter spotted the man standing in the water on top of his chimney, and flew down. The pilot yelled at him to grab on to the helicopter and he would take him to higher ground. The man, again, replied, “No thank you! I have faith that the Lord is going to save me!” The helicopter pilot then sped away looking for others who would be willing to be rescued.
The man drowned in the flood and was standing before the Lord. The Lord was looking at the man, shrugging His shoulder with His hands held out wide; with a perplexed look on His face, the Lord saying, “Why are you here?”
The man replied to the Lord, “I had faith that you would rescue me, and you didn’t.” Jesus replied with frustration, “I sent two boats and a helicopter, what more did you want?”

But, that's not good enough for you, is it?

[urgk]

369. Not good enough for me? No, I LOVE that story.

And I've probably told it at least a dozen times. What I like about it is that it tells humans not to expect divine intervention, to think for themselves, to use reason to help themselves. I'm all for that. If people interpreted every religion as a call to be sensible and logical, I would support them fully.

And I think you're getting close with "God answered "no,"" but that doesn't tell the whole story. If God planned the universe and everything in it, he not only said "no" to the person doing the praying, but he said "yes" to the event itself. The Judeo-Christian God who knows all and created all said "yes" to both world wars, the bubonic plague, the international trade in sex slaves, and on and on and on. I just think he should get credit for it.

[DainBramaged]

300. This thread has truly broken the rules, and has nothing to do with politics

With regard to religion (or the lack thereof), Democratic Underground is a diverse community which includes Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, Atheists, Agnostics, and others. All are welcome here. For this reason, we expect members to make an extra effort to be sensitive to different religious beliefs, and to show respect to members who hold different religious beliefs. Members are welcome to discuss whether they agree or disagree with particular religious beliefs, but they are expected to do so in a relatively sensitive and respectful manner. As a general rule, discussions about ideas are usually permitted, but broad-brush bigoted statements about groups of people — either religious or non-religious — are not. If you are easily offended by discussions about religious beliefs, or if you take pleasure from offending or ridiculing people with different beliefs, or if you consider progressive people with different beliefs to be your enemy or your inferior, do not participate in religious discussions on Democratic Underground.

Discussion topics relating to religion that have little or no relation to politics or current events must be posted in the Religion/Theology forum. If you are easily offended by discussion relating to religion, you are strongly advised to avoid the Religion/Theology forum. Instead, consider participating in one of our many DU Groups for believers or non-believers.

Please note that sweeping statements about entire groups of fellow progressives are not categorically forbidden (except in the case of race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, religion, lack of religion, disability, physical characteristics, or region of residence, as mentioned above). However, they are often inflammatory and counterproductive and the moderators have broad discretion to remove such posts in the interests of keeping the peace on the message board.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules_detailed.html

[urgk]

314. Especially this part -

"If you are easily offended by discussions about religious beliefs, or if you take pleasure from offending or ridiculing people with different beliefs, or if you consider progressive people with different beliefs to be your enemy or your inferior, do not participate in religious discussions on Democratic Underground."

[DainBramaged]

319. Your disdain for people who Believe, unlike you, is disgusting

and you've proven in this thread you are no more Progressive than the Republicans we fight against.

[urgk]

335. Wow. That's some overreaction.

My disbelief is not disdain. I completely understand how people get absorbed/assimilated/raised into a religious system. And I in no way hold it, personally, against any person unwittingly held in its sway. I do, however, have the utmost disregard for people who cynically use religion to gain political and economic power.

The miners, clearly, do not fall into that category.

What you might mistake as disdain for people is disdain for a system that asks people to ignore reason and evidence in favor of a "faith" which gives undue influence to a handful of practitioners. The same kind of non-logic in the political world is most likely to happen on behalf of the Republicans.

[DainBramaged]

338. Your entire reply is a joke and disrespectful

And is a vain attempt at disguising your hatred for those of Faith.

" And I in no way hold it, personally, against any person unwittingly held in its sway."

My turning my cheek is by hitting my ignore button, which by the way, is within the rules by my telling you so.

Goodbye.

[urgk]

346. The problem is that saying things with more vitriol doesn't make them true.

"Loud" does not equal "right."

And thanks for the "ignore," it gives me the opportunity to have the last word. Which I appreciate.

[seabeyond]

339. it is not your disbelief that is disdainful, it is your comments towards christians that

are disdainful. but good job dodging the point.

[urgk]

350. Which isn't what your delightful friend wrote.

"Your disdain for people who Believe, unlike you, is disgusting"

If you can read that as anything other than my having a disdain for people, you're doing so outside of the realm of modern, English communication. In which case, I keep trying to tell you, we will be wholly unable to have a conversation. For one of us (and I make no assumptions or declarations about who is right), it's going to be like trying to have a debate with a cowbell.

[seabeyond]

354. i see you like the last word. have at it. your ugliness is in your posts... nt

[urgk]

361. I'm willing to bet you won't let me have the last word.

If I'm wrong, oh happy day!

If I'm right, welcome back to the conversation. Please use standard grammatical constructs if you'd like me to reply.

[FredStembottom]

333. Thanks for this OP, malaise!

This shouldn't even need to be said - but nowadays, as America devolves, it's vital!

[AlbertCat]

336. It's like those infertile women who go on fertility drugs....

... and then have a litter of tiny fragile babies (gross!) and start thanking god for the miracle!

If it had been left up to god, you would still be childless!

Thank the drug manufacturers and the science that brought it to you, not god!

[rainlillie]

349. It may not be a miracle to you, but the families seem to think it was.

Most of them seem really religious and said they prayed for their loved ones to be rescued. I'm sure it doesn't matter to them what you or I think, the only thing that does matter is their loved ones are safe and sound. Someone on the other side could say that God provided those people with intelligence to build the equipment to make the rescue possible, see how that works? Yes, it would be a huge waste of time too.

[RoccoR5955]

356. Those religious nuts want to claim everything

They continue to think that anything good is the work of their god. Little do they know, but god is dog spelled backwards!
They argue against logic, and vote against their own best interests. Is it any wonder the country's in the mess it's in?

[seabeyond]

358. "god is dog spelled backwards!" brilliant argument. rollin eyes. nt

[rainlillie]

359. What religious nuts? The people who were rescued , their family members?

[DainBramaged]

366. I have been a Liberal since I was a teenager, Hubert Humphrey was one of my earliest heroes

I have voted Democratic in every election since my eighteenth birthday. Your broad-brush statement is pretty shallow and patently false.

[Skidmore]

392. The only miracle you have going on there is that we don't have

a corrupt mine owner parading his tush around trying to improve his image and coverup his role in an act of industrial negligence or his congressional lackeys making excuses for him with open hands held out behind their back waiting for their end of a quid pro quo. THAT is refreshing.

[malaise]

529. Profound comment

:D

[eilen]

403. Maybe it was their faith in God that was the "miracle" that kept

them alive and surviving for 69 days before the rescue (which was clearly technology, cooperation and engineering that provided a way out).

They seemed pretty religious. One of the survivors spoke of his faith and belief as what helped him. I, personally view religion very skeptically but I'm not going to disrespect these miner's beliefs. They used their faith to help themselves and each other to survive, not to victimize other people so I have no criticism on that front.

[Arugula Latte]

544. They can believe what they want, of course

It's just jaw dropping, though, how many people believe in this gigantic A-hole of a god who would make these tragedies happen in the first place and then thank it for their rescue. Maybe it's Stockholm Syndrome on a global scale.

[eilen]

546. Could be.. I can't relate to giving authorship of horrible accidents

or heroic rescues to some invisible entity.

[Cyrano]

406. Good for you, malaise. You defined this perfectly. K&R

[Spoonman]

408. Does the "et al" include.......

The "big oil" companies that supplied the drill hammers, hammer bits bits and specialized compressed air machinery?

A special thanks to MY team for mobilizing in under 36 hours, and keeping the compressors running without a flaw! - Maybe we can all get some sleep (Fernando owes me a bottle Crown Special Reserve, 90 days my ass! I never loose a bet!)

Let's not forget Halliburton DBS for the the specially built bits used to do the drilling! They shut down the production line north of Houston for close to 48 hours to build them exclusively. (they built them and flew them to Chile on the a corporate jet for free!)
A special thanks to James "P", (close personal friend of mine) - thank you for casting the bits and inserting the carbide inserts!

I take a lot of shit from my fellow "democrats" for working for an oilfield service company, maybe this will shut them the hell up!

[malaise]

600. Thank everyone involved

and then recommend to your big oil company that they work towards making this the norm and not the exception.

[Obamanaut]

409. Why not enjoy the happiness of the rescued and their families instead

of being hung up on what the rescue effort is/was called.

[AspenRose]

582. This.

[madmax]

410. With you 2000% dear malaise. but.............

know what is pissing me off to no end. Maybe I should apologize first because I've been catching this off and on throughout the night while doing 109 other things.

These freakin hairdo bullshit commentators and the the 'EXPERTS' who can't help their own self promotion. After all the bullshit and time that went went on in the Gulf, the lies, the promises etc. I'm jaded. Before that NOLA - a fucking disgrace and they're still getting screwed. :wtf: I have yet to get the horrific images out of my head and hope I never do. I want to remember them.

Have been thinking about the miner's in PA. that were saved and those miners in W.Va who were not.

Instead of talking and taking props for all the deservedly good stuff - tell the world what you intend to do right now from jump street about MINE SAFETY - NOW. Stop the bullshit and enact the laws and safety measures you bastards!

Other than that I'm grateful that these men are saved and I hope the media or manna from Heaven falls and let them live a better life in peace with a bundle of cash for the misery they endured.

[Divine Discontent]

411. what a miracle! the spirit of the human brain at work at its best to save man... that's wonderful!

[madrchsod]

415. last night the chinese news service were...

praising the chinese made crane that is being used to rescue the miners...

praise be to the chinese crane!

[malaise]

502. Spanish footballer David Villa sent two

signed Barcelona jerseys to Franklin Lobos, the club footballer in the group. His father and grandfather were miners.
That's part of what I'm celebrating - the solidarity of the working class for their miners. It's beautiful.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-11489439

[nadinbrzezinski]

518. And American media has praised the hole

And don't forget the mighty Oakley glasses.

Oh the Cable is German.

This was a global effort. And I am glad it worked... Great engineering effort and I hope somebody took notes for the NEXT time. Actually I a, sure they did.

[disillusioned73]

416. How did I know this thread would devolve into a

sad arguement that is irrelevent to the fact that these men were saved..... and thats a good thing.

[seabeyond]

421. that was the intent of the OP. to pit religion against science. wasnt a hard one to figure out. nt

[liberal N proud]

417. The miracle is the human mind and spirit

The spirit of the miners and their rescuers keeping the faith that a rescue was possible and striving for that goal.

A miracle in the fact that the human mind can conceive, develop and execute such an incredible task.

[jobycom]

428. Jesus Christ, you want to start a religious squabble over a story like this?

It's a miracle, it's a great human achievement, it's a magic trick, who gives a shit? There's something broken inside you if you are feeling offended by the use of a word that can (but doesn't have to) be interpreted as religious to the degree that you have to attack the sensibilities of others over an incredible human triumph like this.

And I'm an atheist, so I agree with your first paragraph, but your second paragraph draws lines over an event that ought to bring people together.

[seabeyond]

433. thank you atheist.... and i have wasted a whole day on ugly

i am out of here.

thanks for this post.

things said on this thread hurt some people. that is never ok by me

(and no, not me. i dont have a stake in the protecting religion thing. just people)

[icnorth]

429. I derive great satisfaction

from the way the Chilean government is front and centre exhibiting leadership and openness in this operation. In doing so they aren't getting in the way of the professionals doing their job but demonstrate first and foremost it's about the miners and their families, not the special interests.

[BrklynLiberal]

437. k&r

[RedCloud]

438. The all mighty Zeus is not to be taken lightly!

[PADemD]

446. "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." Albert Einstein

[FiveGoodMen]

470. And "God doesn't play dice..."

So quantum mechanics doesn't work.

And the Cosmological Constant is real. No it's nonsense. No it's real.

[liberation]

505. Einstein also said:

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it." (Albert Einstein, 1954, The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press)

[FiveGoodMen]

520. I was vaguely aware of that statement, for which reason I had difficulty believing

that Einstein ever said "Science without religion is lame..." but Google found lots of affirmations and no denials.

So I took another approach and pointed out a couple of cases where he was just plain wrong.

[jobycom]

547. That quote is as often misrepresented as the Jesus quote about bringing a sword.

Einstein wasn't supporting religion, he was trying to redefine religion to do away with "personal gods," and focus religion on trying to find a rational understanding of the universe. That's not a guess, the meaning is clear from the speech in which that quote appears:

http://www.update.uu.se/~fbendz/library/ae_scire.htm

"At first, then, instead of asking what religion is I should prefer to ask what characterizes the aspirations of a person who gives me the impression of being religious: a person who is religiously enlightened appears to me to be one who has, to the best of his ability, liberated himself from the fetters of his selfish desires and is preoccupied with thoughts, feelings, and aspirations to which he clings because of their superpersonalvalue. It seems to me that what is important is the force of this superpersonal content and the depth of the conviction concerning its overpowering meaningfulness, regardless of whether any attempt is made to unite this content with a divine Being, for otherwise it would not be possible to count Buddha and Spinoza as religious personalities. Accordingly, a religious person is devout in the sense that he has no doubt of the significance and loftiness of those superpersonal objects and goals which neither require nor are capable of rational foundation. They exist with the same necessity and matter-of-factness as he himself. In this sense religion is the age-old endeavor of mankind to become clearly and completely conscious of these values and goals and constantly to strengthen and extend their effect. If one conceives of religion and science according to these definitions then a conflict between them appears impossible."

snip

"...science can only be created by those who are thoroughly imbued with the aspiration toward truth and understanding. This source of feeling, however, springs from the sphere of religion. To this there also belongs the faith in the possibility that the regulations valid for the world of existence are rational, that is, comprehensible to reason. I cannot conceive of a genuine scientist without that profound faith. The situation may be expressed by an image: science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.

"Though I have asserted above that in truth a legitimate conflict between religion and science cannot exist, I must nevertheless qualify this assertion once again on an essential point, with reference to the actual content of historical religions. This qualification has to do with the concept of God. During the youthful period of mankind's spiritual evolution human fantasy created gods in man's own image, who, by the operations of their will were supposed to determine, or at any rate to influence, the phenomenal world. Man sought to alter the disposition of these gods in his own favor by means of magic and prayer. The idea of God in the religions taught at present is a sublimation of that old concept of the gods. Its anthropomorphic character is shown, for instance, by the fact that men appeal to the Divine Being in prayers and plead for the fulfillment of their wishes. "

[county worker]

453. What would be a miracle would be the American Corporations putting more safety measures in place

to protect miners in this country.

[Zax2me]

454. I think it is a great survival and rescue story

but 'They must not be allowed to claim this one'? You sound ready for war.
Rescue now a religious debate, sigh...go right ahead. Sitting this one out, going to just enjoy the moment and celebrate the rescue.

[bobburgster]

459. Yeah, that miracle crap is getting old.

seems like every time something dramatic happens some nitwit throws out the M word.

[kmac3]

461. Credit When Due

This is a perfect example of what marvels can be accomplished when ALL work together to resolve a problem. Our present political people could learn a valuable lesson here.

My best to all those who continue to work diligently for the purpose of saving these good people. :applause:

[DesertDiamond]

464. I agree to a degree. In my experience as a Buddhist, prayer does have power.

Nichiren Daishonin wrote in the 13th century that the minds of humans and also of animals have the power of influence. This is not a denial of science. Rather, science is in the process of understanding the truth of this principle. In my own experience, chanting Nam Myoho Renge Kyo with the knowledge that it is really my own power making things happen has created very specific, amazing results.

That said, I totally agree that if we give all the credit to prayer, we fail to appreciate the courage and exhausting efforts of those courageous people who are doing the rescuing. I'm praying for a successful rescue, but I am not one of those people there risking their own lives to rescue them.

[urgk]

467. I may not know the definition well enough, but this doesn't sound like "prayer."

It sounds more like a meditation mantra. If your point is that praying has the same effect as meditation, then it's a sort of meditation wrapped in mythology, rather than its own, independent practice.

If you're saying that a prayer to oneself controls or affects anything other than one's own actions, that gets into something that science has dis-proven.

[liberation]

510. The easiest definition for prayer is as follows:

"Prayer is whatever allows you to think you're helping, without having to actually do anything... to help."

[DesertDiamond]

525. You're assuming we don't take action for the sake of others' happiness. We do. Part of that action

-- and an essential element -- is chanting for their happiness. Chanting for their happiness is taking action for their happiness because it works.

[DesertDiamond]

524. We differentiate -- when we chant to achieve a result, we call that "prayer"

When we chant just to chant, we don't call it prayer. We don't actually call it meditation or a mantra, although those terms would be correct. We just call it chanting. And when we are chanting to achieve something specific, that would be chanting with a prayer.

[quaker bill]

475. Agreed

However, the rescue would not be the thing cited as the "miracle". The "miracle" would be that they did not die in the collapse in the first place.

[Drale]

478. Its not a miracle

but it is damn lucky that all those men where not crushed to death down in the mines, and its a great use to technology and ingenuity that is getting the men back up to the surface.

[rainlillie]

503. One persons miracle is another persons non- miracle.

It all depends on what you believe. I happen to believe in God and I also believe in Science.
We must not make the same mistake as those on the right, by painting all people from one particular religion with the same brush. It really is wise and really is important that we learn to separate religious extremist from religious people.

[cherokeeprogressive]

506. If any of the 33 who were trapped for 70 days, or any of the workers who rescued them

choose to believe that their Faith helped them through this ordeal in any way... I say more power to them.

Who the fuck are WE to decide how those involved should feel?

Mario Sepulveda, 40. "I seized the hand of God, it was the best hand. I always knew God would get us out of there."

Would you have stopped the rescue workers from lowering the 3"x5" personalized "mini-bibles" (complete with a magnifying glass) provided by the Seventh Day Adventist church into the hole?

Is there no situation a DUer will not use as an opportunity to ridicule people of Faith? From Tim Tebow to Chilean Miners... does the indignation ever end?

[Goblinmonger]

528. They can believe whatever they want.

And if that guy was in front of me now, I'd give him a hug and not say a word.

But from thousands of miles away, I can say that God had fuckall to do with getting those guys out of there. The people drilling the hole and the engineers with the plan got them out of there.

[urgk]

532. LOL. And Amen. (n/t)

[malaise]

533. And I am delighted

What a wonderful rescue. Bravo all!!

[TroglodyteScholar]

512. Of course it's a miracle!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-agl0pOQfs

[Sugarcoated]

535. The Christian bashing bullies strike again

Bigot:
A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices, especially one exhibiting intolerance, irrationality, and animosity toward those of differing beliefs. The predominant usage in modern American English refers to persons hostile to those of differing race, ethnicity, nationality, sexual orientation, various mental disorders, or religion.

[seabeyond]

538. +1. nt

[urgk]

558. To automatically decry contrary opinions as "bigoted" is, itself, bigotry.

Saying God doesn't exist isn't bigotry. Calling a religion "myth" isn't bigotry. Saying people should give credit to the human engineers and drill team that rescued the miners isn't bigotry. Pointing out the historically factual accounts of Christians acting distinctly un-Christ-like isn't bigotry.

But painting atheists and contrary opinions as bigoted, certainly does seem to be an exhibition of intolerance or animosity toward those of different beliefs.

Sure, some of the atheists in this thread were frustrated. Early on supporters of religion and the religious equated their opinions with cross burning. It was, in essence, "You say that I'm wrong, so you're immoral, unethical, violent and hateful." Those comments have been (quite rightly) deleted. I'd suggest taking a look at the longest sub-threads to see which opinion - the atheists or the persons with whom the atheists disagreed - broke forum rules often enough to have their comments removed.

[seabeyond]

560. to ridicule, mock, name call, fabricate story, be disrespectful is bigoted. nt

[urgk]

564. I think you're confusing "bigotry" with ridicule, name calling, lying and disrespect.

It's a good thing that the language provides words for each of those meanings, so that we can learn them all and apply them when appropriate.

[seabeyond]

569. it is wht bullies do. and it is the definition of a bigot. intolerant. all those words apply

to being intolerant. examples of intolerance.

[urgk]

573. I am trying to reason with a bend in the river...

...trying to persuade it to think, when all it is capable of is to quietly burble under the trees.

This was your first sentence to me. "are you two really promoting this concept, yet want to be viewed as "intelligent or educated" people?"

I disagreed with you and your beliefs, so your assumption was that I was either stupid or uneducated. What would you call that? Which word would you chose from your list? I know, I know, you're going to try to convince me in half sentences and some sort of poetry format that what you said was both justified and noble; that you were fighting the good fight and that, somehow, I'd brought it on myself.

Save yourself the trouble. I won't find it the least bit genuine or plausible. In fact, I'll find the attempt itself lessens my opinion of your ability to follow a logical progression.

[seabeyond]

577. promoting a christian teacher is unable to teach evolution is both

stupid and uninformed.

take it however you want.

i dont know where that particular quote came from, but when speaking in that manner, this is what i was referencing.

genuine or plausable.... or not.

there it is for your consumption.

[urgk]

580. See? This is what I mean. That isn't the right context.

And it's an argument I never made. Or supported.

This is exactly why I say we're just not in the same activity. I am playing badminton while you try to clear Bushwood Country Club of gophers. And, while I'm clearly getting the better of the match, you're somewhere over near the sandtrap with C4 shaped like a squirrel.

[seabeyond]

585. well dude, you have some responsibility. i made more than a post or two.

you expect me to know what post you are talking? or do you expect me to read them all?

the best i could do is give you a general answer. seeing how you did not give me the info i need

[urgk]

587. Dude. Take some initiative.

Command-F on the Apple keyboard is one way to search a page.

I quoted you. Search for all or part of that. It's not, as they say, rocket surgery. Or do you need me to print it and highlight the things you write so that you can tell exactly when you've been confrontational, irrational, condescending and wrong?

[seabeyond]

590. nah. that is not the way it works. use a quote, you are there, you can give the post. petty

this is just petty. no, i do not know how to do tht stuff with my computer. yes it would take time, and really not worth the waste of time. i told you the gest of why i posted that. it is refering to the atheist that are saying people who have faith dont use science, technology, or resort to hard work, but wait for faith to do... or reference about christian science teacher. it is a bullshit stupid argument.

and it is petty to suggest i go searching for that statement in one of my posts. a simple post number would suffice in all your incredible wisdom..... it is the considerate thing to do.

but dont bother, again, done

[urgk]

592. I see. Is there anything else I can get you? Some slippers, perhaps?

Another glass of whatever gives you that writing style and that lovely way with curse words? Maybe a book on logical reasoning? A community college course in debate? Strunk & White's "Elements of Style"? A shift key?

It is petty to suggest that it is my responsibility to cater to your wild daydreams about our discussion. It's also petty to suggest that it's somehow my fault that you've responded without, quite literally, the slightest idea what you're talking about.

[TK421]

537. After reading all of these responses up to this point, I think you're all a bunch of whack-jobs n/t

[pipi_k]

554. No offense, but what are we supposed to think...

of someone who actually bothers to read through over 550 replies from a bunch of "whack jobs"?


A normal person would stop at, oh, reply number 15 (or sooner).

:+

[TK421]

555. I did...but after a while your eyes start to cross n/t

[seabeyond]

556. stop at, oh, reply number 15 . lmAO. nt

[activa8tr]

540. OH so correct you are! No religious people other than the families

should be allowed to visit this location. They have NOTHING to offer but their mythology, proved wrong so many times in human history.

I would support one Atheist being there, to prove that science once again triumphs over foolish religious bravado.

[old mark]

548. Thank you for the OP - rec.

It has been a fine example of what people can do to help each other if the will exists to do so.

mark

[malaise]

551. It's unbelievable arrogance

when you think about it. Easily one of the best rescues in my lifetime - solidarity for the working class for a change and live coverage to boot. BBC had the best coverage for me.

[Name removed]

593. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

595. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[amyrose2712]

603. K&R +1000 nt