Population growth is a major problem in the world. What are you doing

[MineralMan]

to help solve that problem? What proposals do you have to ameliorate the problem? I'll tell you what I'm doing. In 1965, I made a decision not to have any children. That decision was made based on the knowledge of an ever-increasing world population. I've been married twice, both times to women who agreed with my position. I've utilized contraceptive technology, along with the women in my life, to assure that I would not add to the population. I'm now 65 years old, and my wife is past the age of menopause.

So, what do others do to help solve this problem? Every human being, like all other animals, consumes oxygen and contributes carbon dioxide to the atmosphere. Every human being consumes some share of the resources available on this planet, and some consume much more than others. What is the solution to a problem that shows a huge growth in population since the year I decided not to add to the world's population?

What are your solutions? How have you contributed to solving this explosion of population?

Let's hear some stories from DUers. It's clearly an issue that needs a resolution. How much longer can we continue to increase our population in an exponential growth curve? How do we solve this? We're all progressives here, so we must have some thoughts about it. I've done my part. Let's hear what others have done.

[Scuba]

1. And if Christine O'Donnell get's elected it will get worse...

..."no spilled seed" and all that.

[treestar]

79. Makes one wonder why that witch didn't reproduce, along with thankful

she didn't. There's enough stupid in the world.

[NashVegas]

2. I've Declined to Be An Organ Donor

And don't plan to accept one, either.

[NotThisTime]

57. So if someone's child needed an organ you wouldn't donate... got it...

[NashVegas]

114. I'm Sorry For You And Others

Who view organ donation as a right.

[WildEyedLiberal]

160. Of course it's not a right

There is absolutely no legal obligation to donate your organs upon death. There is also no legal obligation for a bystander trained in CPR to perform said procedure on a person obviously having a heart attack on the street right next to him. Nor is there a legal obligation to call the police if you hear someone being viciously assaulted next door.

None of these things are illegal. The failure to do any of them, however, is incredibly, unbelievably shitty.

[cleanhippie]

189. Perhaps, but in the context of the OP, it is a proactive step.

Its "shitty-ness" aside, it IS something.


What are YOU doing to address the problem?

[cleanhippie]

188. The OP asked what are you doing about it. This poster stated what he is doing.

I see that you do not agree with his choice, but he IS doing something.


What are YOU doing about it?

[Dreamer Tatum]

88. So do you have, like, an Organ Donor Refusal Card?

"Dear Asshole Who is Dying,

I am angry that you are alive, and the world will be better off when you are dead.
You may not have an organ from my dead body. Fuck you and die. Soon, please.

Love,
Me."


:eyes:

[uncommon]

122. How does not prolonging the life of the living differ from choosing not to have

children for this reason?

Also, a person's body is his or her own - while I may be in favor of organ donation, I don't think everyone has to be.

[Dreamer Tatum]

126. One is a choice. The other is simple cruelty. nt

[CreekDog]

162. that's a weird thing to hold such strong convictions about

:shrug:

[cleanhippie]

190. I am amazed at the responses you have gotten.

Seems like a case being unable to see the forest for the trees with the responses.

I, for one, understand the point you are trying to make.

[Warpy]

3. First, I forgot to breed

It was on my to do list, honestly, but time got away from me.

I also do Kiva loans which mostly go to women in the developing world, giving them businesses of their own and something besides being a machine that pops out babies every year. Raising horizons through helping them start and maintain businesses or educating them beyond grammar school is the only method proven to drop fertility rates.

[MineralMan]

5. Both are good ideas. I've also been an escort at Planned

Parenthood clinics a number of times, and an opponent of the RCC's ban on contraceptives and elective abortion. I'm not sure how much those things have helped, but it's part of my commitment anyhow.

[HuckleB]

31. Thanks for the tip on Kiva.

It looks like a fantastic organization. I signed up, and I'll spend some more time at the site later tonight.

[Warpy]

56. Great! You can lend as little as $25

It's embarrassing as hell, but they've also started lending in the US.

Repayment rates are shockingly high since these are the world's poorest people.

[Mimosa]

4. The USA's population would be far under replacement but for immigration

In the USA overpopulation is hardly a problem. I decided at 22 not to have any children. And I'd lost a child, which was very painful.

The problems with over population are in other areas of the world. And they may eventually resolve with development of opportunities for women, as the UN has long held. Or not.

[MineralMan]

6. Yes, the USA doesn't have the rampant population increase,

but we are all on the same planet, aren't we? We're not all that special. Besides, we use an inordinate share of the world's resources, despite our low reproductive rate. I don't count us as a big help with the problem worldwide.

[Warren DeMontague]

111. We are all on the same planet, but negative population growth here wouldn't do anything to help

countries like Niger, or Guinea-Bissou:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories_by_fertility_rate

What you have here, is 1) a "problem" that pretty much solves itself in advanced, first world countries that have personal autonomy and access to contraception/reproductive freedom and 2) people with an axe to grind against "yuppie breeders" or who want to claim moral superiority since they don't have kids- while blithely ignoring the reality of the so-called "population problem", which is that it is geographically and culturally dependent and localized.

[muriel_volestrangler]

147. But that just looks at population growth, without considering the current population

or a country's situation. The 2 countries you give as an example are quite different.

Niger's territory is largely desert; their population has already exceeded the country's biocapacity (hence the famines the country suffers from), and should probably be quite a lot less, so population growth there is worrying. That desert area, though, may be very good for siting solar power generation, and a long term solution doesn't have to mean no imports and exports at all; it would make sense for Niger to export electricity, and then it could import food. That, of course, would require a huge investment in infrastructure, and would any other country do that benevolently? I fear not, at present.

Guinea-Bissau, on the other hand, is in a fairly fertile area, with plentiful rainfall, and a population density that is pretty low - 115 per sq. mile, (for comparison, its neighbours are Senegal at 180 per sq. mile (and that reaches into a less fertile inland region), and Guinea at 106 per sq. mile). It's a coastal country, so there's a significant fishing area too. It has not yet exceeded its biocapacity - even if it started using resources at the OPT 'modest' level, it would now pretty much be at its sustainable population level. It'd be good for the population to level off, but it's not as much of a problem for G-B than some other countries.

But negative population growth in the USA would help the whole planet - it'd mean less global resources used, and the USA is a net importer of resources. It's depleting the rest of the planet (as are Western Europe, Japan, and most developed countries).

[FreakinDJ]

55. BINGO - We have a Winner Folks

In the 60s and 70s the USA sponsored programs in different areas of the world where Birth Control / Population Control were non-existent. Ronnie Ray-Guns and his "Just say No" approach decided to put an end to those Evil programs, and thus was born the "Religious Right" or "Moral Majority" as they liked to call their self back then

[muriel_volestrangler]

77. No, the US is overpopulated too, already

just not as much as some other countries in the world.

In 2002, the World Wide Fund for Nature published their Living Planet Report. The Optimum Population Trust then used this to produce figures for the carrying capacity of countries. They calculated the maximum sustainable population for each country, both at their present lifestyle, and at a worldwide 'modest' lifestyle.

For the USA, the sustainable population with its present lifestyle is just 91 million people; at the modest lifestyle, it's 241 million. Both are well below the 300+ million the USA currently has (for comparison, Western Europe would have to shrink from 387 million in 1999 to 132 million for its current lifestyle, or 251 million for the worldwide modest lifestyle).

Canada, in contrast, could sustain a population of 143 million for the modest lifestyle. For the world, the 'present lifestyles' figure is 4,643 million (about 70% of the current figure), and for a worldwide 'modest' lifestyle, 3,055 million (lower than the figure for 'present lifestyle', because a lot of the world lives in poverty or near-poverty at the moment).

[area51]

86. +1

Yes, we're overpopulated in the U.S. That's the reason that bosses treat their workers like crap here; workers are a dime a dozen.

[Warren DeMontague]

141. Then you must support draconian anti-immigration measures.

If you accept that it's really such a "problem" that it MUST BE ADDRESSED IMMEDIATELY.

Because that's where the lion's share of the US "population problem" is coming from.

[muriel_volestrangler]

148. No, the bigger problem in the US and Europe is over-utilisation of resources

Resources in the country are being used unsustainably; fossil fuel won't last, and land will need to be devoted to energy production; and resources are bought from elsewhere as well, again unsustainably.

If the per capita western resource use fell back to the 'modest' level (very roughly, it's the level of use in Chile), then US population wouldn't need to shrink that much - but the world population needs to shrink more, proportionately. Since elsewhere needs to shrink faster, gradual migration to the countries that don't have to shrink too much may still make sense - and that includes the USA. The population problem is a long term problem, and so are its solutions. Free birth control, rights and education for women, and other measures throughout the world are part of it. So is the reduction of consumption in developed countries.

One could say "we'll carry on over-using resources, and let the rest of the world go hang, and just restrict the number of people coming in here, so that our over-use doesn't become even more dominant", but that would be a very selfish international policy.

[Warren DeMontague]

163. The answer to a non-renewable American lifestyle is not "fewer Americans"

That's simply not realistic, nor would it be much of a solution. The answer is to find renewable ways to power our civilization.

My point in all these threads- and you allude to some of these points as well- is that in places where standards of living are relatively high (and yes, that includes over-utilization of resources, I know) where people have a high degree of personal autonomy, particularly from religious 'authorities', where women have rights, where people have access to contraception, etc. etc.-- population and birth rates tend to regulate themselves.

Again, the 'problem' in the US is not population, it's sustainability, etc. And it's ridiculous and unfortunate for people to have a knee-jerk reaction about their imagined "population problem", or people who want to complain about being 'harassed' for not having kids while simultaneously throwing rhetorical brickbats at those of us who do have them-- to use a population problem that, where it exists, is clearly localized- as an excuse to claim some mantle of moral superiority for not having kids.

[muriel_volestrangler]

167. I don't agree that fewer Americans is "simply not realistic"

You're right that it's not the whole solution, or even the main part. But it would be possible, and it would be realistic. And energy use is a major part of the resource usage, but by no means all - there's water use, and agricultural use. And if you're looking at major decreases in those, then population decrease will help a lot (consuming much less meat would as well).

Japan's population is shrinking at about 0.2% per year at the moment. Germany's is now shrinking as well, though very slowly; and that's with positive net immigration (about half the rate of immigration to the US, proportionately). It could happen for the USA too.

[Warren DeMontague]

168. And what is the immigration rate in Japan?

Is it possible that the Japanese AND the German population shrinkage can be attributable, in large part, to less immigration? Combined, again, with the self-limiting of fertility rates that people achieve ON THEIR OWN when given the tools to make those choices, free of any sort of lectures from proselytizing 'childfree' activists?

And again, if that is the case, doesn't that make anti-"breeder" harangues in the United States all the more ridiculous?

Honestly, the most productive things people can do for the population "problem" is to work for universal access to contraception and reproductive care (including abortion choice) as well as combating the influence of "authorities" (cough. the pope.) that tell people not to use birth control.

Yelling at yuppies because you're tired of hearing babies in restaurants- which, let's be honest, is what motivates a lot of the regulars in this thread- has zip diddly to do with the actual issues at hand.

[flvegan]

7. Since animals also contribute, I'm opting to eat twice as many of them.

:P

Truthfully, I've opted to not have children.

[MineralMan]

8. Thanks. It seems that there are a number of us on DU who

have opted to forgo reproduction. I wonder what percentage of DUers that is...

[flvegan]

17. You could post a poll.

Probably be a good OP, too.

[MineralMan]

20. I don't know. People take polls in pretty small numbers here on

DU. Those polls never really seem to be very representative, I think.

[smirkymonkey]

105. I've taken a similar path...

I've chosen not to breed and I am also a cannibal. }(

[petronius]

172. Me too. But I only eat the children of rich people, because those are the spawn

that would consume the most resources in the future. Also, because they never have to walk anywhere or do real work they're extra tender - like veal... :9

[onehandle]

9. I don't have any kids... as far as I know.

Ba-dum-Bum.

[cynatnite]

10. Well, I screwed up...I had three kids and my oldest two have had kids...

I've got this big family now with grandchildren.

:sarcasm:

[MineralMan]

12. There are other things you can do, you know. I'm not just talking

about people not having children. There are many ways individuals can help with the population growth problem.

[cynatnite]

13. I forgot the sarcasm thingy. n/t

[csziggy]

11. I also chose not to have children and made damned sure it would not happen by accident

By having my tubes tied when I was twenty five.

And when I talk to young female friends of mine, I encourage them to make the same choice. I join my (also childless by choice) sister and her husband in ridiculing "breeders" in the hearing of our nieces and nephews. It seems to be working, none of them have yet had children and only one has even gotten married (though that of course is not a prerequisite to child bearing).

Unfortunately, I cannot have the same influence on my husband's side. One of his sisters is pretty much what I call a "breeder" and she only quit at five children when it became medically and financially impossible for them to continue reproducing. I have no hopes of influencing her children since they are socially isolated by their church and home schooling and their parents pretty much keep me away from the kids. For some strange reason they consider this former pagan, now atheist, progressive liberal to be a bad influence for their spawn.

On a larger scale, I think Mother Nature will take of overpopulation. Plagues of some sort that could sweep the planet, natural disasters that can affect people on local or larger areas, complete collapse of the ecosystem - any one or combination of those could and probably will take the levels down to a more sustainable level. I have hopes that humans will not be completely wiped out, but I do think something is going to drastically reduce our numbers in the relatively near future. We've simply done too much damage to our home.

[MineralMan]

16. I'm don't think that ridiculing people who have children or who plan

to have children is much of an answer. I think that often only serves to harden their minds against the entire concept of population control. As for Nature, well, nature hasn't done much in the way of solving this problem. It is the nature of humans and other animals to reproduce. Yes, a great plague may occur, but we also have worked very hard to find solutions to the great plagues...and quite successfully.

There must be some other ways we can work to solve this problem. Ridicule and shame don't seem to be all that productive.

[csziggy]

30. We don't really do it directly - more in the way of snide comments and jokes

Sort of like the "A vagina is not a clown car" pictures that have been posted here. Or cracks about "Octomom." And we do not do it to the faces of the people who have already made that decision - we make the comments to the young women who have yet to make up their minds.

What is interesting is that my younger sister had five kids and not one of them is happy about the idea of large families. Especially now, since their mother has gone off the deep end (complicated soap opera of a family drama). I think all of them realize that part of her choice to have them was rooted in her own insecurities and metal illness and see how damaging those problems are across the generations.

[MineralMan]

34. Oh, OK. It does seem, doesn't it, that people

who have some sorts of emotional problems tend to have large families. Sadly, that never seems to solve the problems.

[HuckleB]

43. I think that can be the case, but it can also be the case for people who choose not have children.

I see no data-based evidence for the assumption that those with large families are any more likely to have mental health problems than anyone else.

[csziggy]

45. Yeah, and with my family history, I never understood it

My family has a long history of manic depression self medicated with alcohol. Or over reaction to it with religion. Not a good set of genetic material to pass along, even if the occasional genius does show up.

Having gone through my years just preteen to barely adult watching an aunt go through ten pregnancies with six viable children and a mental breakdown, I never after thought of child bearing as anything I wanted to experience. And having been assigned at every family get together to watch that brood of children, I was burned out on dealing with brats. The motherhood instinct just was not strong enough to overcome that aversion therapy.

[Maru Kitteh]

64. So your behavior is both bigoted AND cowardly. Thanks for clearing that up. n/t

[Warren DeMontague]

120. So, you want some kind of a prize for saying snide shit about "breeders" and "spawn"?

Let me guess, though, you run off to join in the threads where the poor, persecuted folks without kids weep and moan about how society is so awfuwwwy mean to the cat ladies and dried up prune people who go through their empty, meaningless lives without kids "childfree".


Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to make those 'snide comments and jokes' directly. Whoops!

[mainer]

186. I'd worry it tells kids they were "mistakes" and shouldn't exist

When you make fun of "breeders", you're telling your nieces and nephews that their parents shouldn't have given birth to them. It could really hurt them, so I'd be cautious with the ridicule.

[Dorian Gray]

36. You ridicule people?

I'm sure that's effective.

[HuckleB]

44. +1

[Hannah Bell]

60. +100. Interesting that people bemoan our culture of bullying & wonder what causes it.

Maybe it's the acceptance of demeaning people who don't behave as they think suitable.

[Dorian Gray]

143. Well, bullying is never justified

people can disagree and still be respectful to one another. I don't understand why someone would ridicule "breeders." It just seems stupid to me, considering the majority of the population are people who procreate... including the parents of the taunter!

[proteus_lives]

66. Breeder? Ugh.

I hope all that nastiness in the first two paragraphs is satire.

If, not...well, I feel sorry for you.

[Hello_Kitty]

104. When I tell people I don't have kids by choice I routinely get called selfish

And immature and a host of other not-so-complimentary things. Even though I have never in my life criticized someone's parenthood choices to their face no matter how ill-advised I thought they were. That would be considered unthinkably rude. But it's perfectly fine for parents to interrogate and insult me out loud and in public. I've noticed that the people who seem least happy as parents are the most likely to diss childfree folks.

[GoCubsGo]

110. Tell me about it.

A few years ago, friend of mine once asked me if I ever regretted not having children. I said, "Not in the least. I don't really like them." This was a woman who went through tens of thousands of dollars worth of fertility treatments, which not only ended up in failure, but caused her marriage to dissolve, on top of it. My answer dumbfounded her, and I haven't heard from her since. Don't understand that one. At the moment, I'm doubly thankful I don't have them, because I can't even support myself and my two cats as right now.

Then there's my family history of cancer, obesity, bad teeth, bad joints, etc.

[HuckleB]

118. Uh huh.

:eyes:

[proteus_lives]

123. It's not right if someone criticizes you for your choices.

But do you think her nastiness is acceptable?

"I've noticed that the people who seem least happy as parents are the most likely to diss childfree folks."

That logic would most likely apply to the woman who calls people "breeders" as well.

[CBR]

124. Does not excuse the behavior of the poster. nt

[Warren DeMontague]

139. And how happy and satisfied are the childfree ones who need to snark off about "breeders"?

Honestly, if you're so gul-durned persecuted for not having kids, why is it we constantly get these threads judging, name-calling, and otherwise shit-flinging at those of us who CHOOSE to have kids? (Riiiiight, it's due to the so-called "population problem". Mmmmm-Hmmmm.) What about all those threads criticizing people who don't have kids? How about those?

Oh, yeah, they don't exist.

[HuckleB]

119. +1

[fizzgig]

69. so you try to ridicule people into subscribing to your way of life?

i decided long ago that i don't want children and my husband is cool with that. i don't understand why anyone would want (or need, really) more than two kids or so, but it is not my place to try to impose my beliefs upon another woman's body nor make an attempt to shame or ridicule her into adhering to my beliefs.

last i checked, dems/liberals/progressives supported reproductive choice.

[queenjane]

80. You found a doc who'd tie your tubes at 25??

I saw many doctors, and none would sterilize me because they just knew I'd change my mind. I don't like children, didn't want children, made damned sure I didn't have any. Got pregnant one time (accident--was on the Pill, took antibiotics at the same time, bingo), had an abortion. I also paid for a friend's abortion (she had no money). I'd bet I am the ONLY person in my whole sprawlin', breedin', religious Southern family who's ever had an abortion. They also have some problem with using birth control--they're Baptist, so I don't think it's so much a religious prohibition as simply laziness & ignorance. Besides, they don't even raise their own children, they hand them off to the grandparents or great-grands and go on their merry way, reproducin' some more.

Hard to get a handle on overpopulation when so many give no more thought to having children than I do to a bowel movement.

[Arugula Latte]

175. queenjane -- one thing

I'd wager good money that you are NOT the only one in your religious Southern family who's ever had an abortion. So many fundy types are against abortion -- until they have an unplanned pregnancy. And then many of them are still against abortion for other people, while making an exception for themselves.

[Dreamer Tatum]

89. Your post is utter and complete horseshit..

You ridicule people who have children as "breeders" in the presence of children? It's great that you hate yourself, but you should really seek out some psychological help if you feel the need to involve others. "Breeding" is a biological function that sustains the SPECIES as well as social fabric.

Are you retired? Do you ever plan to retire? Do you get Social Security? Medicare? You'd better hope that someone is out there reproducing so the economy can grow enough to sustain your unproductivity.

And by your last paragraph, I assume you were cheering with a Mother Nature pennant during the tsunami, Katrina, the Haitian quake, the Pakistan floods, and so on? If so, can you please point me to your threads from those times, pointing out the need to wipe out entire civilizations in the name of "sustainability?"

If you replace "Mother Nature" in your last paragraph with "God," would you care to guess who you'd sound like? Exactly - the same people you ridicule in your second paragraph. You don't believe in an imaginary Sky Daddy that evens the score when the world gets sideways, do you? Oh, no...that's what FUNDIES do. Instead...you believe in an imaginary Sky MAMA.

Pfft. Ridiculous.

[Hello_Kitty]

91. And I filled up my Bingo Card with your post.

You managed to fit every one in 3 paragraphs.

[Hello_Kitty]

90. Some of the responses you're getting are hilarious!

Not so fun when YOU'RE the one being castigated, is it, parents?

Don't worry though, other than a few random remarks from anonymous strangers on the 'net you'll never have to put up with a fraction of the rude shit we childfree people take IRL.

[Dreamer Tatum]

93. Yeah, the child-free are spat upon in our society

What a load of shit THAT is.

All I can say is, if brainpower is hereditary, then perhaps it is best that many people remain childless.

[Hello_Kitty]

102. LOL!!

:rofl: :spray:

You'd forgotten the "I guess it's a good thing someone like you isn't having kids" bingo in your last post. Now the card is totally full. :)

[Warren DeMontague]

112. This bullshit turns up here regularly, every week or so.

And short of the occasional nosy mother-in-laws, honestly, I think you're living in a narcissistic bubble if you think most people give a flying fuck that you don't have kids.

[HuckleB]

125. Exactly.

[Dreamer Tatum]

129. +100000

I don't believe for one second that anyone wastes a minute ridiculing someone for not wanting children.

[SidDithers]

138. +1...nt

Sid

[HuckleB]

116. Yeah, I've never been at a table with someone who goes off about "Breeders."

At the time, they thought it was fine, because no one had kids yet, but their hipster routine really came across as juvenile. I still overhear these rants in public. They're still lame attempts at finding an identity for someone who has none, IMO.

I also know my share of couples who decided not to have kids because children didn't fit in with their lifestyle (which is just fine), who, after making the decision, "discovered" that not having a kid was good for the environment. Now they advertise a decision that had nothing to do with world population, the environment, or anything else as being just that.

There are too many posers, pretending to be holy holies. It's ridiculous.

[uncommon]

134. Do you think that all parents have a problem with those who choose not to have children?

I think most parents don't give 2 shits about other people's choice to have or not have children.

[sufrommich]

127. Wow, I'll bet you and your husband are a hoot at parties.

Making fun of parents who apparently don't share your pompous view of humanity.I can't imagine why your husband's family wants nothing to do with you.

[uncommon]

132. Wow, you sound like a peach.

I respect people's decision not to have children, but to actively ridicule those of us who choose to raise families is shameful behavior.

[stuntcat]

151. .

:headbang:

I'm sick of being called "selfish". Not wanting to give the next 80-90 PATHETIC years to my innocent child is "selfish"? That kind of talk and the things people are posting in this thread do nothing but assure me I was right, humans are Earth-raping monsters. I'm glad my years are half over.

[Drunken Irishman]

14. I pull out.

[MineralMan]

32. That trick never works for long. I think it has about the same result

as the "rhythm method." People who use either are called parents.

[prairierose]

15. I decided at an early age, not to have children...

I did think about it once when my biological clock was ticking down but stuck to my original plan.

[MineralMan]

19. I think you've done your part, then. That seems clear.

Thanks.

[bhikkhu]

18. Limiting one's own procreation is the main thing for any individual

...and after that its the relatively more likely to fail "telling other people what to do". If only it were as simple as convincing people they wouldn't be as poor, we all wouldn't be so poor, if there were fewer of us.

The one thing that has been demonstrated to work reliably, leading people to be able to make a decision for themselves, is education. Particularly education for women. If a person had done what they could in their own lives and yet wished to make some positive difference to others, advocating for education would be the one basic thing to do.

"Fatal Misconception" by Connelly is an excellent book, covering the last hundred years or so of efforts towards population control - I'd recommend it to anyone interested in the subject as a good course of study prior to jumping to any conclusions on the topic.

[MineralMan]

22. Yes, education does seem to be a major factor, as does

economic stability. It seems clear that in countries with a high standard of living population growth has slowed in the past half century or so. Perhaps a combination of the two is part of the answer. I do believe that educating both men and women, though, is important. Even an educated woman can be more or less compelled to become pregnant in many places. Educating men, too, seems to also be a crucial step.

[leftstreet]

21. I work against single payer healthcare. We've got to get rid of ourselves

:eyes:

The issue is resources, not population

[MineralMan]

23. Well, I consider this a serious topic. Apparently you find it

an occasion for sarcasm. So be it.

[leftstreet]

52. Putting the working class on the defensive...never a good idea n/t

[Hannah Bell]

61. i consider it an occasion for sarcasm too.

[Count Olaf]

38. "The issue is resources, not population" [phone]

yes!

We need to look at how we, as a nation, are wasting valuable resources on our insatiable need for crapola!

Then we need to end 'free' trade and only do business with countries and companies that follow strict environmental rules.

[TriMera]

24. I only sleep with other women.

So far, so good.B-)

[MineralMan]

27. Well, that will work, for sure.

:evilgrin:

[Jamastiene]

99. Same.

Love your response. It's the same for me.

[Warren DeMontague]

145. We've got at least 2 Lesbian families at the preschool

so I guess you never know what might happen. :shrug:

[Raine]

25. I've never had children and I've done clinic

defense facing off against the anti-choice people (they were very creepy :scared: ).

[MineralMan]

28. They are creepy people, aren't they?

I think my stature and general demeanor helped me doing clinic escort stuff. I just gave 'em the look and they generally backed off a few feet.

[stevedeshazer]

26. I had one kid each with two different mothers.

My ex had a kid with her new husband; so did I.

Net result is three children with four parents. That trend would lead to population control, no?

:rofl:

Now, if a car left Kansas City headed west at 55 miles per hour....

[MineralMan]

29. Yup. Less than the replacement rate. That's a solution, at least

in this country, and explains a lot of the reason that we don't have the same growth rates as some other places.

[MineralMan]

33. Well, this thread has made it onto the "On The Fence" list.

[HuckleB]

46. Hmmm. I'm struggling to see the justification for an unrec of this thread.

:shrug:

I just gave it a rec, and it went to +1!

[MineralMan]

85. Could be that it's the author who's being unrecced.

That happens a lot.

[HuckleB]

101. Very true.

[pintobean]

130. If someone dislikes the author,

they should be happy that he hasn't reproduced, which should earn a rec.
:)

[Yeahyeah]

35. I want to know why every dingleberry and douchebag thinks they must reproduce.

I've never felt like I should.And I am quite the handsome genius.Seriously,though,WTF?Seems like people with half a freaking brain for the last 50 years would take a look around and see an overpopulation situation.It's some kind of ego thing,or what?

[HuckleB]

47. It's probably just to spite you.

[cynatnite]

48. You don't think it's human nature?

We've been breeding since humans figured out how to copulate.

[uncommon]

135. Nope. It's a choice choice choice that has absolutely nothing to do with biological imperatives.

:sarcasm:

[Scout]

176. the biological imperative is to fuck

the breeding part is secondary.

[Dreamer Tatum]

94. You could apply the same logic to posting on DU.

Why did you post what you did? There are millions of posts here already.

Was it some sort of ego thing, or what?

[Count Olaf]

100. great answer!

:applause:

and the same question to the OP, who started this thread after we were already discussing overpopulation on another thread. Is this an ego thing? You weren't winning on the other thread? And what answer are you looking for with this question? Besides not having kids, what are people supposed to do to fight overpopulation? Help people get abortions- nice one!

Perhaps the question should be, what are we doing to approach the problems we might face in the future of humanity.

People will continue to have children, this is not just about you! We have a duty to take care of the earth for everyone and that means stopping pollution, stopping the degradation of the environment, not just checking out and saying "I'm done"

[Count Olaf]

37. I am raising my children to garden, fish, chop wood, build their own home

and expand their creativity so they can be part of the generation that solves the problems we will face in the future.

[rug]

39. First thing in the morning, I'm having my testicles removed.

:patriot:

[HuckleB]

40. We had one kid, though we tried to have two.

We started late, which is a great way to end up having fewer kids than one planned to have. Actually, neither of us were ever set on having kids. We were married 13 years before our boy was born, and we were not set on having two until he was a year old or so. That limbic connection is intense, and I can see why some people want to have more. Still, two was our limit, though we also knew that we were at prime age for twins, which did scare us. I'm fixed now, so that is that.

Blah. Blah. Blah.

I honestly wish I had ideas, but I don't. I have taken Warpy's Kiva idea to heart, and signed up. Perhaps I'll make a loan later tonight.

It seems to me that working to increase the standard of living, standard of health care, the opportunity to have a variety of life choices beyond procreation is the necessary generic goal. It just flashed in my mind that, in the long run, this might mean exposing religious mores that limit life choices, etc... Certainly it may mean educating one another that human survival no longer demands multiple births, but may actually demand fewer and fewer births. To that end, I think it may be wise to begin to reconnect people as a community, where we help bring up the kids of others, creating faux sibling relationships, and giving parents more connection to more kids beyond their own one or two or none. I'm too tired to think about how that could happen, but I feel like that would help with the emotional drive to have multiple children that I experienced, and that I suspect many parents experience.

Great thread. Thanks for starting it.

:toast:

[TuxedoKat]

41. Hmmm

Well, I adopted both my kids and if other people enquire about adoption I talk about it positively on the chance that they will consider it as an option if they are so inclined.

From what I've heard and read educating and empowering women slows population growth. I will check into supporting organizations that do that -- find some that make micro business loans.

[Naturyl]

42. Not having kids, to start with.

Publicly undermining the idea that having them is necessary, for another.

[Canuckistanian]

49. My wife and I only had one child

Despite pressure from relatives and friends.

For us, it was partially financial and partially because of not wanting to bring more children into an already overcrowded world.

The human race is not in danger of extinction.

[cynatnite]

50. Well, there is this...

More women are opting to have fewer children or not at all.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26288149/

[ismnotwasm]

51. Well, having been a young breeder

Before I ever considered population, I can't say I've personally/physically acted. My husband and I though, when we got married, made a very conscience decision NOT to have a child together. We had our hands full with what we blended together.

Other than that, as I go from being an active to armchair feminist depending on my time available; I donate to causes that promote family planning around the world, I do stay active with family planning centers in my community. In a few years I hope to be more involved in community nursing, specifically at Planned Parenthood, or perhaps a community clinic. I encourage young women in my profession when they express a desire NOT to have children--they often need someone on 'their' side. And I encourage them to encourage others. I attempt to open dialog on the topic when I can. So I don't do much but I hope to do more. I stay aware.

[hollowdweller]

53. I don't have any kids.

On the other hand I'm not so sure that when the US lets people from other countries with more extreme reproductive habits move here I sort of feel like my effort is being canceled out, at least as far as keeping US population growth in check. Maybe I'm still helping at the world level though.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lionel Mandrake]

58. I contribute to a couple of organizations

which are doing good work that will empower women and help control population:

www.zpg.org

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/

I know it's not much, but it's something.

[InvisibleTouch]

59. Never had and never will have biological children...

...in part because of the population problem, it's true, but also because I personally don't want them. I puzzle over those who jump through all kinds of medical hoops to have a biological child when there are so many that need adopting. If someone absolutely feels like they want/need children, I try to encourage adoption. I wish it were a more visible movement with greater publicity and prestige, and a more streamlined process for the prospective parents.

[ZombieHorde]

62. ...

[Touchdown]

63. Being honestly and openly gay

It ain't my fault!

[Radical Activist]

65. I usually do a good job of making women not want to procreate with me.

And I use birth control during those occasions when someone does want to engage in an otherwise procreative act.

[proteus_lives]

67. Nothing.

If I meet the right woman and settle down and we both want kids, we'll have kids. If we don't, then we won't.

BTW, there is nothing you can do about beyond asking people to make their own decisions.

Now I have a question, would you support a mandatory limit on children per couple? Like China did?

[MilesColtrane]

68. No children, and I plan to check out as soon as is convenient.

[Confusious]

70. I think you're on the wrong board for that question

It's not like the United States has 1 billion+ people each like China or India.

Maybe you should be asking that on an Indian board or a Chinese board.

Maybe you're just trying one upmanship in moral purity. Or the "I'm more left then you" game.

That's all I really get out of your post.

[WinkyDink]

71. Childless by choice, TYVM.

[blindpig]

72. Kill Capitalism

Capitalism begets poverty. Poor people have a higher replacement rate. Ameliorating poverty and educating poor women has been proven to reduce replacement rate.

[LWolf]

73. These things:

1. I had 2 children. My 2 children, between them, have 1 child, and it is highly unlikely that there will be any more. Negative population growth. If you follow my maternal line, my mother was her mother's only child, I am my mother's only child, and my grandson is the single offspring headed into the future. That's no population growth in 4 generations.

2. I support free, easy, and abundant access to any kind of birth control, and to abortion. I support politicians who work for those things.

3. I support comprehensive sex ed that includes birth control and that teaches the long-term effects for parents and child of early parenthood.

Given the opportunity, I would also support turning our tax structure upside down. Giving the largest deduction to those who have produced no biological children, a smaller deduction for one child, no deductions for 2, and a carbon tax on every biological child produced after that, regardless of custody issues.

[Marengo]

74. +1 on your tax proposal n/t

[queenjane]

81. Agree on the tax proposal (n/t)

[marions ghost]

82. I like that tax incentive approach

And also, support of birth control and sex ed is right to the point.

I come from a Brady Bunch family in which 3 adults bred 9 children. No ZPG there. And the pressure on me to have kids was huge. I say that two adults (both working most likely) cannot successfully raise more than two children. There just isn't enough of everything to go around. The families with 4-5 kids these days appear to be in difficulty. It seems like an affront to reason to inflict excess kids on the world today.

Ever since making this decision my spouse and I are considered weird and (?!?)--"selfish"--(!?!) not to have kids, even though we are very good to our nieces & nephews. It is still not OK. Even my (intelligent) siblings imply that I "can't know what it is" to have their worries and concerns about children. That is so demeaning that I don't dare deal with it directly to them. Not worth it.

ONLY WHEN these backward attitudes change and NOT having kids becomes a truly respectable choice, will we be on the road to recovery from the scourge of over-reproduction.

[LWolf]

150. You make a good point about the cultural expectations.

As a public school teacher, I can tell you that I, for one, am grateful to those who choose to remain childless. Not everyone is cut out to be a parent. Those who crave children can find all kinds of kids who need stable adults in their lives in a variety of roles without incubating them themselves.

My maternal grandmother, who had only one child, was one of a pack of 12. We didn't maintain connections with them, though. So while the greater culture still holds having children as the norm, in my family one or none IS the norm. We respect each other, anyway.

[marions ghost]

173. well in my case

I think I was definitely cut out to be a parent, as is my spouse. I always wanted kids. I'm good with them and I know how to do it (thanks to my wonderful mother). But given the opportunity, we could not justify it considering the problems of the world today. The older I get the more I know it was a big sacrifice for the good of the whole. But it is one that few people appreciate, because of course everyone thinks you don't LIKE kids.

I have no regrets but I have not found it easy to interact with children because of the attitudes of parents that you are "not cut out" to have kids, or that you dislike them. They mistakenly think the polite thing to do is keep them away from us, sadly. I have fond childhood memories of how kids in my urban neighborhood would visit with and interact with older adults--this does not happen today. So anyway just making the point that some of us saw the big picture early on, even though we wanted them.
The majority of our friends are people who do not have kids. It is not an easy bridge to cross.

Thanks for your post.

[LWolf]

182. You're welcome.

I have to say that my single mom included her childless friends in our lives, and I loved it. She was the only family I had, and a greater circle of adults was wonderful.

[Forkboy]

75. I'm a serial killer.

No need for thanks, my job is it's own reward....

[L0oniX]

87. +1

[smirkymonkey]

107. Yes, but are you killing fast enough to keep up with the birth rate?

That's what really matters here. :P

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

184. .

:spray:

[supernova]

76. I did not procreate

And I am to marry someone who shares my decision. He had a vasectomy when he'd had enough children, long before we met.

I want to care for the people who are already here.

[treestar]

78. No children, but not sure it was a choice

If I'd been lucky enough to find the right bloke, I might have.

But what we should do is work to improve standards of living world wide, since the birth rate drops with increases in standard of living. To that end, it's not horrible that there are more jobs in China and India and a hope they can increase their standard of living, since together, those two countries are the major contributors to global population.

[snooper2]

83. My daughter is 11 months old now

It wasn't planned, so talking about whether we wanted to have a baby or not...went on for a week or so.

Then Jesus sent me an email and stated we must have this child as she is the chosen one. And yes she is. She helped me solve a packet loss issue the other day and is not even 1 yet! :rofl:

[Evasporque]

84. My partner has a penis...

I have one too...still...pregnancy seems pretty low risk. We make great parents too...for all those parent-less kids out there.

so I guess the obvious solution is to promote same sex relationships as okay and natural.

I know it is on my agenda.

[Iggo]

97. 'Agenda', eh?

:P

[Warren DeMontague]

113. I promote people being free to make their own decisions about relationships & reproduction.

What galls me is that there are people here who claim to be "pro-choice" who are all to willing to fling shit at folks who have kids.

[Iggo]

92. I don't breed.

[LoZoccolo]

95. No kids, no car, no yard, and I live within three miles of work. n/t

[Dreamer Tatum]

96. I think people with militant anti-population attitudes should be exempt from all social services.

Social services require economic growth to thrive. Economic growth depends on human capital. If it pains your little heart to see human capital grow, then please do your part and don't accept any social assistance, ever.

Fair?

[Hello_Kitty]

106. An economic system based on ever larger populations to replace those that precede them

Is not very sustainable on a planet with finite resources. Maybe time to come up with a different model?

You know, there are right wing economists who have actually proposed what you suggested. Cutting off retirement payments for childless people because they consider us to be "free riders" who haven't done our duty to produce new consumers/serfs/cannon fodder. You're in good company there. :thumbsup:

[Dreamer Tatum]

108. And you're in good company with Malthus, a/k/a one of the wrongest people ever

Sorry, cappy, but all economic growth is in part predicated on human capital growth. A "different" model would probably require violation of some basic laws of thermodynamics, among other things.

I don't consider childless people to be free riders. I just consider people who whine about population growth yet expect the social safety net to be one inch below them at all times to be silly.

[Hello_Kitty]

146. Sure. Jeebus will replenish the Earth's resources indefinitely. eom

[Dreamer Tatum]

153. How funny that any "liberal" would be happy to toss human capital out of growth

...meanwhile there are HOW many threads decrying the soul-lessness of Republicans?

I sincerely hope you're infinitely wealthy, because your hatred of humans runs counter to the nuts and bolts of the social contract.

But please feel free to denigrate religion some more as you realize that you're silly.

[Hello_Kitty]

155. I don't think an ever growing population is sustainable.

No matter how special and gifted your little snowflakes are.

[Dreamer Tatum]

159. Got it - you hate children.

You're in the extreme minority. And no human should ever have to explain or defend a fundamental biological urge to another human. If there are too many people on the earth for your delicate sensibilities, then I'm sure you are aware of your personal options.

Now then, go contemplate your superiority to everyone else and wallow in your incredulity.

[Hello_Kitty]

166. Whatever. I like children enough to know I wasn't cut out to be a parent.

The people who share that trait with me yet have kids anyway are the ones who REALLY hate children. But that's a subject for another thread. :)

[Scout]

178. don't you just love how posters make shit up about you?

like you hate kids, you hate humanity

narrow minded bigots.

[Hello_Kitty]

181. Yeah, and I won't rise to the bait.

:)

[Scout]

177. the biological urge is to fuck...

the breeding is secondary to that.

[Warren DeMontague]

180. And some people want to put a stop to that, too.

If you think there's nothing at all hard-wired about "breeding", though, you're just... deluding yourself.

Doesn't mean everyone should do it, but the people who feel compelled to spit on it really ought to find better hobbies.

[chaska]

185. Wow, what an asshole.

And a stupid one at that.

[stuntcat]

117. +1

people are lost

[LWolf]

149. +1

[The2ndWheel]

152. Which economic system isn't based on that?

[Hello_Kitty]

156. Let's put our thinking caps on.

It's amazing to me how people can shrug off the threat to the planet that 20 billion+ people would pose to it: "Technology will find a way!" Yet faced with the reverse situation, the possibility of a decline in population it's, "OMG WE'RE DOOOOOOOMED!! WHO WILL TAKE CARE OF THE OLD PEOPLE!!!1!!1!"

Maybe smartypants innovative human beings could figure out how to deal with it. :shrug:

[The2ndWheel]

161. I'm not even close to technology will find a way

But how many of our institutions are built on the idea of more people doing more things? I'd say every one of them. Corporations need more customers. Governments need more taxpayers. Political parties need more voters. Unions need more members. What organized effort tries to get fewer people involved in whatever it is that it's doing? We need everyone paying into the same pool for health care to work. Not just a few people. Not just sick people. Everyone. More and more people. Healthy and sick. Nobody gets to opt out. Share the burden. More people, less burden on each person.

Nothing that we currently do, or have been doing for hundreds, and even more likely, thousands of years, is set up for an actual decline in population. We can make it work with aging populations, for now, because the developing world is basically a baby factory for the developed world. However, if the developing world is developing toward something, then that will stop at some point. People won't have to move to North America, or Europe. Who knows what happens to a place like Japan. It would be interesting to see what might happen at that point.

[Hello_Kitty]

165. What organized effort tries to get fewer people involved in whatever it is doing? Plenty of them.

The number of doctors is limited to keep their pay up. Unions fought against child labor, in part to squeeze the labor supply and raise wages. As flawed and broken as our immigration system is it does place barriers to entry to this country which, again, keeps our labor market from being flooded with even more workers competing for jobs.

And more people doesn't mean less burden, it means more competition for finite resources. I don't know how anyone can look at what's happening to the planet, to our environment, and say "yeah, what this situation needs is more human beings."

[Scout]

179. +10,000 n/t

[calendargirl]

174. +1 nt

[athenasatanjesus]

98. There is NO population problem

The problem is in how the resources are being used,and divided.A few people have far far beyond their means so that strains the workloads of everybody else,and of course the way those who have just waste isn't helping anything..

[Count Olaf]

103. yes

The American people seem to have plenty of food witness the majority of the population being obese.

Just last week there was an article about something like 40% of the food in the US being thrown in the garbage.


We have 20% using 83% of the resources, and people want to blame overpopulation??

[laughingliberal]

109. I'm living with no health insurance & inadequate food. I'll be vacating my place early.

And I brought no children into the world.

[slackmaster]

115. I bought bags of McDonald's hamburgers and fed them to Hare Krishna kids

:hi:

[NeedleCast]

121. I'm Eating All the Unattended Babies I Can Find

[stuntcat]

128. when I realized mine was the species causing the extinction of so many others..

I had the operation. I am very proud of not making more humans. All the arguments I've seen, over and over for years, saying overpopulation is not the problem, just make my mind up even more. The bald monkeys are oblivious to what our species quadrupling in half a century means for the little planet. The selfish pro-human thing is almost religious.

I'd like the people with such strong feelings that I am wrong to get back to me in 2050 about how I really should have given the rest of this century to my innocent kid.

2050, remember Stuntcat. Remember.

[Dappleganger]

131. Sorry, my solution

was to give birth to four raging liberals.

That's probably not the answer you wanted to hear, is it?


:evilgrin:

[uppityperson]

133. Contribute to Planned Parenthood and work with others like that

Having 1 or 2 children when you want them is a better strategy than being held hostage to random reproduction. Better for the woman, the children, families, society and the world.

[VioletLake]

136. I got out of the gene pool, dried off and sat down to watch. nt

[SidDithers]

137. Snip snip...

the unkindest cut of all.

Sid

[Warren DeMontague]

140. I'm telling all my friends in Niger, Guinea-Bissou, and Afghanistan to STOP HAVING KIDS.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories_by_fertility_rate



If you're talking about birthrates in THIS country, the so-called "population problem" doesn't exist.

[nemo137]

142. When your friends in Niger, Guinea-Bissou, and Afghanistan use as many resources

over the course of their lifetime as your friends here, you might have a point.

[Warren DeMontague]

144. No, see, the problem you're talking about there is resource usage

not population.

What, exactly, do you think addressing this in the framework of a so-called "population pronlem" is going to accomplish? People in the US use too many resources, so you're going to get rid of all the people in the US? How does that work?

You're not making any sense, but that doesn't matter, because you're not advocating for a cogently thought out argument. You're grinding an axe against people who have kids, and using a nonexistent "population problem" as the cover.

[Dreamer Tatum]

154. So....poor and less productive people should reproduce at will, but people with access to...

...the greatest productivity processes in the world should STOP reproducing?

Please, stop talking. You're making zero sense.

Your real issue is with resource allocation, not resource utilization.

[Count Olaf]

157. PLANETARY PLUNDER: It's NOT OVERPOPULATION so Much as it is The LIFESTYLES of THE WEALTHY

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9310476

[taught_me_patience]

158. I'm having my first child in a couple of weeks.

Depending on how it goes, I'd like to have at least two more after that.

[Warren DeMontague]

164. Congratulations!

Get your sleep now. :hi:

[taught_me_patience]

170. Thanks!

It's getting so close that I'm starting to get real excited!:party:

[CBR]

169. Congrats!!! nt

[Mariana]

171. My husband and I have one child only.

I've also helped four women pay for abortions who otherwise probably wouldn't have been able to raise the fee in time, and would likely have been forced to give birth if I hadn't contributed.

I managed a pizza delivery store near several clinics in Midtown Atlanta when the Operation Rescue loons descended upon that city in 1988. I brought free pizzas to both the police and the regular citizens who were protecting the employees and clients of the clinics.

[astral]

183. I always knew I didn't want to have kids

and I didn't. But it was about my selfishness in not wanting the responsibility, not because of concern for the planet. At four years old I didn't know anything about population growth but I did know I very seriously did not want to have kids.

I do believe that nobody should accidentaly get pregnant and have kids without making a decision to have them. But if people want to bear children they should. I think that if every child born was a wanted child there would naturally be a leveling-off of the population because many women don't want to do the mother hood thing but once you become pregnant the choices are to raise the child, abort, or carry the child through to delivery and have it adopted.

The problem of population is worsened by the way we destroy the planet to live, which many cultures do not do and which doesn't have to happen.

Is overpopulation really the problem, or is it just the way wealth is distributed and the way certain classes of people are treated as unimportant and expendible?

[proud patriot]

187. I'm an only child who has an only child

I hope to pass on the resposiblity to my son as well .

[uppityperson]

191. I badgered all pregnant friends into getting abortions. Those not preg I badgered into getting pg so

they could get abortions also. I assisted a friend with an infant to suffocate it and claim it was SIDS. I slowed my breathing down to lessen that oxygen consumption. I killed many little animals to decrease the carbon dioxide contribution. Then I cut down a couple trees and planted a whole bunch of baby ones so now there are more trees!

I quit contributing to NGOs that help the homeless, the ill, the starving, so those people would die faster.


:sarcasm: just in case.

[Kaleva]

192. It's more of a distribution of resources problem

[Hannah Bell]

193. i routinely disparage people with children as "breeders" while bragging about how enlightened

i am.

and i go on rants about how the folks in africa (the poorest, least densely populated continent) are having too many children.


that'll teach 'em.

[TBF]

194. My solution is to redistribute the wealth so there is no longer a problem.

And I am talking about worldwide socialism.

The problem is plundering/hoarding of resources, not population.