Question, would slavery been abolished if not for the principled religions of

[WCGreen]

the day?

Would ordinary people have been willing to fight and die if the reason for going to war with the south had been for say betterment of northern capitalists?

It was the moral righteousness of Northern Protestants that pushed the issue to the forefront of the American public.

As he died to make men holy let us die to make men free....


There were arguments backed up by god and the Bible on both sides.

And that is what motivated the people, the ones who would shed the blood.


Abraham Lincoln was an Enlightened man who felt, like Jefferson and Franklin, that there may be a higher power but that power was not interested in the day to day lives of people. He was not a religious man. I believe he felt he was a rational man and not an emotional man who would let himself be taken over by the emotion of religion.

Since the North and the South were dug in, both certain that god was on their side, the conflict became intractable.

The fact that present day Republicans are willing to flame the righteousness that can only come from a deep belief that god stands with us and against them is the most cynical and dangerous action s politician can take.

It's only a small step for ministers to start calling for action, violence against the unrighteous amongst us.

We are on a slippery slope.

[enki23]

1. so, your options are... fight for religion vs. fight for capitalism?

seriously?

[WCGreen]

3. Perhaps if you had read the whole post....

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. We are one step away from a HOT civil war, indeed

[pnwmom]

4. Except that slavery ended in most Catholic countries before

it did in the Protestant-dominated U.S.

[WCGreen]

5. Most Protestants of the day did not consider Catholics Christian...

that was a shock to me when I learned that...

[pnwmom]

16. Still true here in much of the South, especially.

Among Baptists and other fundamentalists.

In fact, Catholics were one of the targets of the KKK.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

6. Recommended.......even though it didn't show, for now...nt

[Petrushka]

10. Now ya see it, now ya don't? My own "recommend" showed, but quickly disappeared. [**sigh**] So---

---here's a link to the PBS 6-hour series God in America, a series that pretty much backs up what the OP said:
http://www.pbs.org/godinamerica/view/

Edited to add: For some unknown reason, the first episode in this series isn't (now) available at the above link. It is, however,
available here: http://video.pbs.org/video/1610726967/


:kick:

[CaliforniaPeggy]

12. Thanks for the link!

The recs are now showing...and that is as it should be.

BTW, WCGreen has a thread in the religion forum about that series. I plan to watch it.

:hi:

Here's the link to his thread over there:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x262436

[Petrushka]

15. Thanks, Peggy! Please note that I've edited my previous post to include another link.

The series ran for the past three nights on PBS here (in central Ohio). I missed the first hour tonight because my
granddaughter wanted to watch "Hell's Kitchen". It was, therefore, good to find PBS has the entire series online.

:hug:

[Chulanowa]

7. Yes, indeed it would have

Those religions were principled for three hundred years prior to abolition. Didn't do a whole lot of good.

And yeah, people were quite ready to fight and die for the benefit of northern capitalists. Just like people on the other side were ready to fight and die for the benefit of southern capitalists. The war was not about slavery - secession was, but it was the economic realities of that action, not the moral ones, that precipitated the war.

[Bobbieo]

8. I thought that is why Columbus kept coming back to the New World - for slaves

for Ferdinand, Isbella and the Catholic Church.

[WCGreen]

9. Actually, Queen Isabella prohibited the exploitation of the natives

after she was enchanted when they were brought back by Columbus.

We all know how long that lasted.

I was astounded when I heard about this on a PBS special a few weeks back called I believe, When Worlds Collide. It was about the melding of Spanish and indigenous peoples over the centuries.

[pnwmom]

17. And the Catholics who travelled to South America were much more

likely to intermarry with the Native Americans than the Protestants in the north.

[Chulanowa]

18. By that taim the Arawak and Taino were already mostly extinct

And the exploitation continued under the logic that since they refused Christ, they were not human and thus not subject to the edicts of either the queen or the Pope (who also forbade brutality against the natives)

[WCGreen]

19. The Pueblo's kicked Spanish ass in the mid 1600's and chased them

out of the Pueblo area...

[old mark]

11. Rec. nt

[struggle4progress]

13. Here's Lincoln:

... Both read the same Bible, and pray to the same God; and each invokes His aid against the other. It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God's assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men's faces; but let us judge not that we be not judged. The prayers of both could not be answered; that of neither has been answered fully. The Almighty has his own purposes. "Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!" If we shall suppose that American Slavery is one of those offences which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South, this terrible war, as the woe due to those by whom the offence came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a Living God always ascribe to Him? Fondly do we hope--fervently do we pray--that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue, until all the wealth piled by the bond-man's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash, shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said "the judgments of the Lord, are true and righteous altogether." With malice toward none; with charity for all; with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in; to bind up the nation's wounds; to care for him who shall have borne the battle, and for his widow, and his orphan--to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace, among ourselves, and with all nations. http://www.loc.gov/rr/program/bib/ourdocs/Lincoln2nd.html

This statement seems to me too full and nuanced to be a mere political calculation. Lincoln is perplexed that both sides can "read the same Bible, and pray to the same God," Morally, he cannot conceive "that any men should dare to ask a just God's assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men's faces" and yet he turns around immediately to cry out "let us judge not that we be not judged." He imagines a catastrophic retribution "until every drop of blood drawn with the lash, shall be paid by another drawn with the sword" and does not question that such retribution would be "righteous altogether" -- and yet in the very next breath, he wants "malice toward none" and "charity for all." It is a complex message, reflecting an uncertain tension about "the right, as God gives us to see the right" -- which for him is "a just and lasting peace"

[WCGreen]

14. There is thought that it was the death of his young son that turned

him toward a more traditional Christian belief and that he viewed the war after Gettysburg as a righteous battle.

Thanks for putting this up.