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What a scientist didn't tell the New York Times about his study on bee deaths

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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 12:09 PM
Original message
What a scientist didn't tell the New York Times about his study on bee deaths
What a scientist didn't tell the New York Times about his study on bee deaths
CNN/Money

FORTUNE -- Few ecological disasters have been as confounding as the massive and devastating die-off of the world's honeybees. The phenomenon of Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD) -- in which disoriented honeybees die far from their hives -- has kept scientists, beekeepers, and regulators desperately seeking the cause. After all, the honeybee, nature's ultimate utility player, pollinates a third of all the food we eat and contributes an estimated $15 billion in annual agriculture revenue to the U.S. economy.

The long list of possible suspects has included pests, viruses, fungi, and also pesticides, particularly so-called neonicotinoids, a class of neurotoxins that kills insects by attacking their nervous systems. For years, their leading manufacturer, Bayer Crop Science, a subsidiary of the German pharmaceutical giant Bayer AG (BAYRY), has tangled with regulators and fended off lawsuits from angry beekeepers who allege that the pesticides have disoriented and ultimately killed their bees. The company has countered that, when used correctly, the pesticides pose little risk.


A cheer must have gone up at Bayer on Thursday when a front-page New York Times article, under the headline "Scientists and Soldiers Solve a Bee Mystery," described how a newly released study pinpoints a different cause for the die-off: "a fungus tag-teaming with a virus." The study, written in collaboration with Army scientists at the Edgewood Chemical Biological Center outside Baltimore, analyzed the proteins of afflicted bees using a new Army software system. The Bayer pesticides, however, go unmentioned.

What the Times article did not explore -- nor did the study disclose -- was the relationship between the study's lead author, Montana bee researcher Dr. Jerry Bromenshenk, and Bayer Crop Science. In recent years Bromenshenk has received a significant research grant from Bayer to study bee pollination. Indeed, before receiving the Bayer funding, Bromenshenk was lined up on the opposite side: He had signed on to serve as an expert witness for beekeepers who brought a class-action lawsuit against Bayer in 2003. He then dropped out and received the grant.

The rest: http://money.cnn.com/2010/10/08/news/honey_bees_ny_times.fortune/index.htm
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
1. recommend
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DCKit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
2. Anyone else notice that while the MSM is still shilling for U.S. corporations...
foreign corporations have no such protection?

They'd never expose Monsanto like this.

Oh, and thanks for the post. K&R
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
3. this article has been roundly condemned by many on the entomology listserve Entomo-l...
...because Jerry Bromenshenk is widely respected within the bee research community.

Personally, I'm opposed to industry support of science that comes with any strings attached, such as non-disclosure agreements. Unfortunately, science costs money, and government is not footing enough of the bill, so increasingly we see the possibility for conflicts of interest. However, as I said, there was recently a thread on the entomology listserve entomo-l condemning this particular article because Dr. Bromenshenk is so widely known and respected by his colleagues.

The general consensus is that this article is a journalistic hit piece whose innuendo has little or not basis in reality.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Can you provide some links to these rebuttals?
If this article is indeed crap, I'll ask the Mods to lock it.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. here is some traffic from entomol-l....
Sorry, its a listserve so links are not possible as far as I know. I've copied some of the recent traffic below. Unfortunately, I've deleted most of it from my own mailbox after reading, so this is pretty choppy. All the exerpts below are from entomol-l and I've removed the authors' names since the posts are duplicated without permission.

Whether the article is "crap" is another matter though-- I'm not certain you should remove it, but I do think that readers should be aware that the perspective it offers is not widely held within the bee research community.

-----Original Message-----
From: Entomology Discussion List on behalf of Name Removed
Sent: Wed 10/13/2010 3:41 PM
To: ENTOMO-L@listserv.uoguelph.ca
Subject: Re: Breaking news on CCD breakthrough paper

I've known Jerry for many years and consider him to be one of the
brightest stars in the bee world.

The smears in this article are just plain garbage.

Name Removed



-----Original Message-----
From: Entomology Discussion List
On Behalf Of Name Removed
Sent: 14 October 2010 02:09
To: ENTOMO-L@listserv.uoguelph.ca
Subject: Re: Breaking news on CCD breakthrough paper

Name Removed,

You have to understand that this debate is driven by mostly political
and not scientific motives. The proponents of the "pesticide theory"
just know that the pesticides are to blame. So, if science contradicts
their ideological views, this science is wrong. Now, it is almost
impossible to attack the science behind this particular study, which is
beautifully done and very convincing. Hence political attacks - we have
seen the same approach developing in front of our eyes during the
discussion.

1) The "pesticide disclosure" statement, which assumes that if you are
in any form or way use or work with pesticides or pesticide companies,
you integrity is irrevocably tainted. The same trick was applied to
discredit Dr. Jerry Bromenshenk. Basically, this is a conspiracy theory
variant.

2) Closely related to this conspiracy theory is science fiction in its
different formats, for example pesticides "parasitizing" humans or
societies.

3) When everything else fails, there is proximate versus ultimate causes
theory, whereby pesticides do not kill directly but rather weaken the
organism. This theory is almost impossible to prove conclusively in the
case of CCD, and certainly impossible to disprove. Any negative results
can always be dismissed by the "true believers". (see for example
"Changes in transcript abundance relating to colony collapse disorder in
honey bees (Apis mellifera)" Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2009
106(35):14790-14795, free text).

However, when one tries to expose the ideological underpinning of these
claims, and to contest them in the same political framework where they
belong, somehow it is defined as "mud-slinging".

Name Removed



-----Original Message-----
I was recommended to read this recent paper in J Chem Ecology 36:
522-525 (2010), which studies effects of selected neonicotinoids and
Nosema on bee physiology and pheromone production.

"Nosema spp. Infection Alters Pheromone Production in Honey Bees (Apis
mellifera)".
Claudia Dussaubat & Alban Maisonnasse & Cedric Alaux & Sylvie
Tchamitchan & Jean-Luc Brunet & Erika Plettner & Luc P. Belzunces & Yves
Le Conte.

Basically they conclude that parasitism but not the pesticide studied
(imidacloprod)affected colony homeostasis via altered pheromone
production.

Any views appreciated on this paper.

Thanks,

Name Removed, PhD FRES FLS


The last is less a comment about the article in question as it is additional support for the basic premise that CCD is probably not a pesticide issue, which is pretty much the emerging consensus among researchers.
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #6
15. I seem to have a vague memory
of reading an article saying that the bee population had rebounded in the EU in places where the neonicotinoids had been banned? Am I mistaken?
I would love for there to be a definitive answer so I can protect my hives as best as possible.
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hatrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #6
18. Citation #1 - It's a vicious smear!
Citation #2 - It's all a conspiracy theory/vicious smear (with ideological roots)
Citation #3 - I just read this paper - what did you all think?
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #18
44. as I said above, this is conversational traffic on a working entomologist's listserv...
Edited on Thu Oct-14-10 07:04 PM by mike_c
...and it's not a coherent narrative because I haven't saved all the posts-- the ones I excerpted were ones that were still in my trash folder after having been deleted from my in-box. However, many of the folks who post on entomo-l are prominent entomologists, including bee researchers and allied scientists. (I offered the disclaimer below that although I've participated in lots of WILD bee research conducted by others, I don't personally work with honey bees in my own lab.)

I'm appalled at the lack of scientific literacy on display in this thread. While we might lament the "conspiracy theory" accusations in that second entomo-l post, I'm afraid a glance at this thread proves the point more than adequately-- the notion that pesticides are responsible for CCD-- or cell phones, or whatever-- is not well supported by the data, it's not well regarded by most scientists who are researching CCD, and yet it's apparently a sacred cow here on DU. It's anti-science, frankly.
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Doremus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. ...wondering where the listserv posts supporting the article might be, or were there none?
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. honestly, I don't recall any that directly supported the article in the OP...
...although as I've noted elsewhere in this thread, it wasn't a listserv thread that I read closely after the initial posts disparaging the article in the OP-- otherwise I'd have saved them. The accusation of research bias because of commercial ties is a serious one, however-- it's the sort of thing that ruins scientists' reputations FOREVER, so using the popular press to author a hit piece against a well respected researcher in the field is not going to generate a whole lot of traction without some genuine supporting data.
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hendo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #49
53. However, the general public rarely cares of such things.
Most Americans believe the BS that random articles feed them, often at the expense of real, supported scientific data. After all, just look at this thread.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #53
89. Pray tell, what scientific journals do you peruse on a consistent basis?
Edited on Fri Oct-15-10 09:39 AM by WinkyDink
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mistertrickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #44
66. Okay, here's some science. Old viruses and fungus = problems. New pesticide = CCD.
How do these brilliant scientific minds rule pesticides out of that equation?

It seems to my non-scientifically trained mind that a pesticide that doesn't kill bees but just makes them disoriented so that they cannot return to the hive would be very hard to detect in the hive . . .

But we're just supposed to trust the "experts," many of whom are paid for by Big Chemical Corp.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #44
90. I don't think you can blame public perception for being as it is.
The right wing has done everything they can for the past 30 years to delegitamize any and all traditional sources of valid information to the public. This includes the academic community and science reporting in the news.

As you point out in post 3 government support for research is desired for creating a buffer allowing impartiality, but the volume of research done includes a great deal of work funded by private interests.

I would add to your appraisal the fact that in the same 30 years part of the right wings effort has involved corrupting even the government leg of research by subsuming the public-safety oversight role government has over business to a role where government is more a support structure for corporate economic growth.

When communism failed in the Soviet Union and China part of the process was the corruption of science by the political ideology. Why should it be a surprise that over-reaching ideology at the other end of the spectrum should result in a similar outcome for a segment of culture that is so potentially deadly to entrenched power?

One way to look at the problem could be to ask how do we ensure the public knows which scientists are proving unbiased information as opposed to those who are churning out corporate protection science?

But I'd say that is probably secondary to the question "how do we ensure that our entire scientific community is producing good science across the board".

The public has little to no ability to separate the wheat from the chaff, especially when the water is as muddy as it has become.

For an example of how pervasive the problem can be, I suggest the paper "Climate Change, Nuclear Economics, and Conflicts of Interest" by Kristin Shrader-Frechette DOI 10.1007/s11948-009-9181-y
www.nd.edu/~kshrader/ksf-cv-dec-1-2009.pdf

Thank you for the contribution to understanding the issue.

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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #6
20. It is most certainly a valid/answerable scientific question WHY bees are dying NOW...
...from a fungus & virus and at no time that we know of in the past. This issue of the MYOPIA in scientific studies that affect corporate profit drives me up a wall. I've seen it on sudden large frog die-offs, on the ravaging of forests with clearcutting and pesticide use as entire key species are going extinct, on "sudden oak death" disease and many other events. The paid-for scientists, including government scientists, don't ask the ecosystem questions: What factors in this particular ecosystem's "web of life" are contributing to the CUMULATIVE effects on a particular species? We live in an intricate BIOSPHERE--a "web of life"--that we--and most particularly our profit-driven, profit-is-the-only-value, gigantic, powerful multinational corporations--have been hugely altering for the last century with growing intensity in the last half century. WHY are bees suffering from this fungus/virus disease NOW, and never before?

I find the following paragraph from the above listserv items particularly offensive in this regard:


"3) When everything else fails, there is proximate versus ultimate causes
theory, whereby pesticides do not kill directly but rather weaken the
organism. This theory is almost impossible to prove conclusively in the
case of CCD, and certainly impossible to disprove. Any negative results
can always be dismissed by the "true believers"..."


"Impossible to prove conclusively"? Science is not a matter of proving ANYTHING "conclusively." And this sophist knows that. Science is a matter of the preponderance of the evidence until some more evidence comes along, or some bigger picture is seeable. The preponderance of the evidence that the earth is the center of the Universe and that the "Milky Way" was stardust prevailed at one time. Then somebody--or a number of somebodies--brought more evidence to bear, and invented telescopes.

We are suffering that same kind of enforced myopia about the Earth's biosphere as the people of Middle Ages suffered from the myopia of the Roman Catholic Church about the Earth, the Solar System and the Universe. Only this time it's a different kind of multinational corporate structure that is blinding us. Bees don't suddenly "die off" in huge numbers because of a fungus/virus unless their immune systems have been weakened, making them vulnerable to the fungus/virus. WHAT is causing that weakness? Is it genetic (perhaps why it is affecting only commercial bees)? Or is it environmental? Those are the kinds of questions that should be asked. It's fine to identify the disease. WHAT is causing the disease to SUCCEED--to kill off whole colonies, in many places? What are the CHANGED environmental factors--different from the factors in all previous human/bee history--and how are these NEW factors CUMULATIVELY impacting the bees?

This is difficult science, because it is looking at the bigger, more complicated picture--the "web of life"--but it is not "impossible" science, and "conclusive" proof is NOT needed in order to put up CAUTION SIGNS (and even STOP SIGNS) about pesticides and other relevant environmental factors. You can't ever "prove" that MacDonald's "causes" obesity in children, but you can damn well put two and two together sufficiently to try to ALTER MacDonald's menu and its advertising and to improve childhood nutrition along with other factors including exercise. No exercise COMBINED WITH lots of salt-drenched French fries, and intense advertising to push lots of salt-drenched French fries--and a number of other factors, including poverty--produces this huge health problem. No, it is not all MacDonald's fault. Yes, lots of salt-drenched French fries are a CONTRIBUTING factor.

This obese child gets diabetes, and you've got to treat THAT. Right? Probably with drugs, or the child dies. But have you solved the problem? No, you have not. Why? Because children generally don't get obese and contract diabetes for NO REASON. There are multiple contributing and controllable factors that must be addressed, and if they are NOT addressed, we are looking at medical MALFEASANCE.

Same thing with bee die-off's. Scientists who focus on the disease and not on why bees are suffering the disease, in my opinion, are engaging in scientific malfeasance. Blindness. Myopia. Failure to look at the big picture--at ALL factors contributing to the die-off's. Identification of the disease is not enough. Even treatment of the disease is not enough, given what will likely be a chem/pharma treatment, rather than a more complex "web of life" solution. This is exactly like giving drugs for childhood obsesity/diabetes and NOT trying to change the child's diet and other circumstances.

Sorry to get so angry and shout about this. But it seems so obvious to me that the artificially human-changed "web of life"--in which pesticides play a big part--must be studied, in all its intricacy, and must be addressed, before you say that you "know" what is happening with bee die-off's and propose solutions. And I'm sorry but we know damn well how much corporate propaganda, power and money is influencing scientific problems like this one. Criminy, look at the lack of action of our government on climate change, the biggest industrial impact ever. And look at U.S. forests--or look at the pathetic, post-industrial remnants of them. "Houston, we're got a problem."
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Curmudgeoness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #20
38. Thanks for the shouting, even if I didn't realize you were shouting.
We all need to shout more often.
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proverbialwisdom Donating Member (366 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #20
39. Exactly!
I just came across this disturbing article, too.

http://www.dailyfinance.com/story/bat-die-off-could-devastate-us-agriculture/19669951/?icid=main%7Chtmlws-main-n%7Cdl8%7Csec3_lnk3%7C177136

An 'Unprecedented' Bat Die-Off Could Devastate U.S. Agriculture
By BRUCE KENNEDY
Posted 9:45 AM 10/12/10

...For several years now, scientists have been sounding alarms about a devastating fungus, White-Nose Syndrome (WNS), that has literally decimated bat populations in the Northeastern U.S. The fungus leaves a white substance on the bat's nose, wings and body, and disrupts the bat's hibernation patterns, forcing it to burn through its fat reserves, which quickly leads to starvation. Earlier this year, a survey of the bat population in New Jersey estimated that 90% of that state's bats had been killed off.

"This is on a level unprecedented, certainly in mammals," says Rick Adams, a biology professor at the University of Northern Colorado and a renowned bat expert. "A mass extinction event, a thousand times higher than anything we've seen. It's going through like wildfire, with 80% to 100% mortality."


See full article from DailyFinance: http://srph.it/cTI6pF


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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #20
45. you'll be shocked to know that entomologists studying the problem...
...have not yet reached consensus that CCD is even real, or if it is, whether it is anything new. There have been seasonal colony collapse disorders recorded for centuries, beginning LONG before the advent of widespread pesticide use. They've had names like spring and fall dwindle disease.

The notion that bees are dying all over the place is propagated mainly by the press, and mainly its the usual hysterical fear mongering. Don't take my word for it-- go read some of the PROFESSIONAL literature and look at the data yourself. Much of the hysteria in the popular press is just bunk. It really is.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #45
59. We're not talking about seasonal population fluctuations! We're talking about
a whole truckload of bee colonies on their way to orchards, in the right season, well cared for, ALL DYING within a matter of weeks! And MANY reports of this, in many places. What are you, blind and deaf?

Sometimes scientists have their heads up their asses, and if you are a typical spokesman for their point of view on this, I'd say that a whole lot of them have heads up their asses on this issue.

You know, I once saw a Nova on, I believe it was U. of Colorado scientists (been a long time) who set out to "prove" whether or not baby humans need their mothers to touch them, by putting newborn baby monkeys in a cage without their mothers and WATCHING them cry, and grow thin, and get agonizing looks on their poor little faces, and scratch the glass where they could see their mother but not be touched by her, and watched them DIE, for lack of maternal stroking. Yes, they went that far--to put what they needed in view but not reachable--to "prove" something that they could have ASKED almost any human mother to confirm. Babies need their mothers to touch them.

I have never forgotten this "experiment," nor the attitude of the Nova scientists presenting it--as if this was legitimate experimentation. I had just had a baby--and I wanted to reach into the TV and strangle these jerks. They could ALSO have learned what they wanted to learn by sympathetically OBSERVING monkeys (or human mothers, for that matter). I couldn't believe what I was seeing, and have ever since realized that some scientists have their heads up their asses. Do babies need their mothers? Jeez. Does the sun 'come up' every day? Maybe we should place a whole lot of hydrogen bombs at the North Pole, and set them off and try to stop the earth from spinning to find if it's still true that the sun 'comes up."

The "matrix of life" is OBVIOUS--except to narrow-minded, BIGOTED scientists who WON'T see it. WHAT is causing MANY colonies of bees, in the right season, on their way to do the job they've done for millions of years, to suddenly ALL DIE? WHY are the bees sick? WHAT is making them vulnerable? It may not BE just pesticides. It may be pesticides, plus loss of some nutrient they've always had before, due to overdevelopment in nearby areas (loss of a wild plant or plants?), plus some new toxin in the materials used for artificial beehives, plus climate change (new and different weather patterns), plus residue toxins in the orchards they are used for, and other factors in their GENERAL, complex "web of life."

To say that it's a fungus and a virus is to say almost nothing. WHY would these reliable wild critters BECOME vulnerable to this fungus/virus? And to DENY that this is occurring--to IGNORE the NUMEROUS reports of frantic BEE-KEEPERS who are watching it happen--is very like the scientists who DENY mother-love until it is PROVEN that babies WILL DIE without it. That is nuts. And that is what I mean by scientific myopia.

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Pooka Fey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 05:38 AM
Response to Reply #20
73. Thanks, Peace Patriot, for this wonderful, intelligent post.
No apologies necessary for telling the truth, and shouting sometimes happens when the person one is addressing in a normal speaking voice refuses to listen.
Many of us on DU could benefit from your ecology/web-of-life lesson.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #20
98. It's the Materialist/Reductionist mindset that is blinding us now. The starting point where all Life
forms are machines and the material world is all there is.

In order to study biospheres, hives, altruism... things where the larger entity or observed phenomenon is greater than the sum of its parts can't be explained by Reductionism and is thus ignored.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #98
119. that's one of the most absurd things I've read here today....
We're scientists. The "material world" is what we do. That's what the scientific method(s) is good for.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #3
34. All that shows you is that there is a quid pro quo going on.
How can scientist Mr. ABC express his outrage for his colleague, Mr DEF, for accepting money that has implications of conflict of interest in findings of Mr DEF when Mr ABC has also compromised his own research?

Does he really want to have Mr. DEF start to complain about his compromises?

And note: quite a while ago, the New England Journal Of Medicine said that they were lifting their ban on research where there was possible conflict of interest money payments - the policy was so widespread of Big Corporate Money supporting the University Labs, and also funding the research, and it was occurring throughout almost all scientific studies such that there would simply be nothing for the noted Journal to report on!!

And those of us in the forefront of examining the GMO industry rely on scientists in Europe to help us know the truth about the GMO foods.

For that we remain quite grateful to people who got their heads knocked sideways back during the WTO/Seattle meetings. The protests during the Seattle's WTO meetings stopped the meetings that would have forced Europe to sign off on Corporate sponsorship of their science labs.

Luckily the protesters were able to create such havoc that the Europeans attending those meetings escaped from having those protocols become established by international treaty.

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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #34
120. so the fact that many of the folks who do this work for a living disagree...
...means that we're all on the take and running-dog lackies of Monsanto? That's rather a broad brush, don't you think?
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Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
5. In this era of fraud--can we take the chance that something ISN'T?
I don't think so.
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Curmudgeoness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
7. Best science money can buy. Anyone who does not believe
that pesticides kill bees the same way they kill "pests" has their head up their ass.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. well, that would include most professional entomologists and bee researchers....
eom
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Curmudgeoness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #8
37. I beg to differ. Most professionals in the field know that
many pesticides are toxic to bees. And that even includes professionals who are working in the pesticide industry. See my answer below.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. you needn't lecture me about what "professionals in the field" think....
I are one. Those are the colleagues I work with, to varying degrees. Although, in fairness, my research is in other aspects of insect ecology, not bee research per se. I work with quite a few WILD bee researchers, however.
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hendo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #40
54. +1,000,000!
Hopefully that will shut up the people who think they can win an argumentby shouting the loudest ;)
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #54
92. "shouting"? Did I miss the audio button here? But "shut up the people" is the mark of a, shall we
Edited on Fri Oct-15-10 09:45 AM by WinkyDink
say, non-Democrat.
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. And you know that how?
How many peer-reviewed studies on the matter have you read?

I know sod all about this issue, but I'm willing to bet you do too. And the idea that a sprayed-on chemical might e.g. kill insects that live on sap far more effectively than those that live on nectar, or kill bugs but not bees, is not an ipse facto absurd one, certainly.
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Curmudgeoness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #9
36. All you have to do is read labels, you don't have to read
all the scientific papers on pesticide toxicity to bees. Some examples of spray pesticides used to kill aphids (which feed on sap) but are also toxic to bees:

Orthene 75S (acephate)
Address 75 WSP (acephate)
Sevin (Carbaryl)
Lorsban 4E (Chlorpyrifos)
Dimate (Dimethoate)
Steward 1.25 SC (Indoxacarb)
Lannate (Methomyl)
Cheminova Methyl 4EC (Methyl Parathion)
Penncap M (microencapsulated Methyl Parathion)
Tracer (Spinosad)

I do not know if pesticides are part of the cause of Colony Collapse Disorder, and I have not said that I know about this. If you want a more detailed list of pesticides that can effect bees, you will get more than you knew existed in the following paper:

http://cru.cahe.wsu.edu/CEPublications/pnw0518/pnw0518.pdf
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kimmerspixelated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #7
31. My thoughts exactly! n/t
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
10. Oh, he's a "good guy"? Well, here's what other "good doctors and scientists" have done:
Edited on Thu Oct-14-10 01:13 PM by WinkyDink
http://healthland.time.com/2010/10/13/mind-reading-discussing-the-dark-side-of-medicine-with-author-carl-elliott/
Bioethicist Dr. Carl Elliott's new book, White Coat, Black Hat: Adventures on the Dark Side of Medicine, is a relentless exposé of bad doctoring. The book examines the pervasive and often deadly influence of money in the U.S. health-care system, covering everything from clinical trials that compromise patient safety for little scientific purpose to ghostwritten journal articles that serve mainly to market drugs. The result, Elliott argues, is a medical system in which no one is looking out for the patient."


In this case, bees....and all humans.

http://www.ahrp.org/infomail/05/11/03.php

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/208009-Big-Pharma-Bad-Medicine-How-Corporate-Dollars-Corrupt-Research-and-Education

http://www.ahrp.org/cms/content/view/632/9/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There IS cause for skepticism.
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stopbush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Funny how the skepticism always seems to be directed at the
highly credentialed scientists, peer-reviewed studies and well-funded research, while the Chicken Little conspiracy theorists get a free ride on the skepticism front.

It's true for climate change, the anti-vac autism BS and apparently, it's true in this research on bees as well, not to mention the granddaddy of them all, the JFK assassination.

If you're going to doubt the science, then doubt it with science that puts the lie to the research you're questioning, not with innuendo and the self-important "knowledge" of the type that sees a mugger in every shadow.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Deleted message
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
hendo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #12
55. Odd how that works ;) NT
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #12
85. Whatever! You go on believing. BTW: How's that thalidomide study? How about the syphilis ones?
Edited on Fri Oct-15-10 09:42 AM by WinkyDink
Oh, no; scientists would never do anything less than driven-snow pure.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #12
101. "doubt the science" What you don't grasp is that it's a failure of these scientists' mindset-
Edited on Fri Oct-15-10 11:34 AM by KittyWampus
their philosophical starting point.

If you are a Reductionist, you automatically assume X and discount Y.

At this point, the "highly credentialed scientists, peer-reviewed studies and well-funded research" you tout are pretty much all Reductionists and thus limited in their capacity to address problems that involve larger systems like ecology or the human body. Small successes here more often than not cause larger failures later on because the entire system was never the starting point. Want a prime example? Giving women horse estrogen.

I support Science but am cognizant of the limitations of studies done by Reductionists.
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proverbialwisdom Donating Member (366 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
11. More here.
More discussion here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4566867
Possible Cause of Bee Die-Off Is Found

and here:

http://gmwatch.org/component/content/article/11621-gm-crops-and-honey-bee-researchs
GM crops and honey bee research
Monday, 26 October 2009 14:50
NOTE: This interview about GM crops and bee research taken from the new EU report,'Risk Reloaded,' is doubly interesting.

First, it suggests that genetically modified Bt maize could be a possible co-factor in bee die-off.

Second, it seems to confirm the recent concern, including pieces in Scientific American and Nature Biotechnology, over the degree of control and interference that the biotech industry and its supporters may be able to exert over the conduct and publication of research...


Taken from Risk Reloaded: Risk analysis of genetically engineered plants within the European Union
http://www.testbiotech.org/sites/default/files/risk-reloaded_engl.pdf

(A report by Testbiotech e.V., Institute for Independent Impact Assessment in Biotechnology
Authors: Christoph Then, Christof Potthof, October 2009)


BACKGROUND: http://gmwatch.org/component/search/arpad?ordering=&searchphrase=all

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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
13. Scientific Research has been corrupted by Corporate America. Anyone who doesn't know this by now
has NOT been paying attention.

Corporate America OWNS the government and almost-though not quite yet-OWNS all of us too.


People can argue the validity of the article in the OP till the cows come home, but when you connect ALL the dots, it's quite clear that corruption is rampant everywhere in this country where there is a dollar to be made.

Science be damned.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Deleted message
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
KT2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. So right
have seen this scenario too many times in the human health/toxic chemicals issue.
I tell people to look to foreign countries for the best research because America has been bought and sold. Universities, private research facilities are dependent upon corporate money. Fewer federal dollars going to research. As for our government, it has been turned into a revolving door to corporations.

Trust is gone.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #13
42. I find this terribly offensive....
I mean, over-generalize much? I'm a scientist who has NEVER taken a dime of corporate money or signed a non-disclosure agreement. I work directly-- every day-- with several dozen colleagues and I'm not aware of ANY such conflicts in any of their professional lives.

Of course I have seen it happen, but honestly, of the hundreds of colleagues that I have personally interacted with professionally, I'd hesitate to say that more than a handful have compromised their ethics as you suggest we all have. It's far rarer than you seem to think. It really is.
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hendo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #42
56. +1
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #42
96. Save your outrage for your fellow scientists who have sold out instead of someone like me
who tells it like it is.

Good on you that you are one of the honest few that hasn't sold out and actually gives a damn.

I'm sure there are more of you, but sadly, I don't think you are the majority.




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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #96
97. you think the honest are few in science...?
Edited on Fri Oct-15-10 11:09 AM by mike_c
You really haven't any clue about what science is or how it works, do you? Science is a culture of honesty.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #97
100. Not since science has been corrupted as it has. How in the world do you expect people to trust any
scientists when so many are bought and paid for?

Same goes for politicians, banksters, the media and corporate america.

You know this is true, so stop being in denial about it and stop trying to make me the bad guy for telling you the truth.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #100
116. no, you are utterly wrong....
Edited on Fri Oct-15-10 06:14 PM by mike_c
Look, I work with dozens of my fellow biologists directly and I've been associated with many more during my career. How many scientists do you know and work with? I feel like I'm in a reasonably good position to maintain that scientists who are "bought and paid for," as you suggest, are not common at all. In fact, they are exceedingly rare. If there is any profession left where most folks are still overwhelmingly honest and trustworthy, it is the life sciences, especially academic scientists.

Sure, there are some folks who compromise their ethics. I've known a few, although I've never worked with ANYONE who is nearly as bad as you suggest. The WORST I've ever personally experienced is a small handful of colleagues whom I know to have signed non-disclosure agreements in return for research support, and while I don't agree with that, if it's the worst that "selling out" gets in science, it's not too egregious. But even that is rare in my experience. I can tell you with absolute confidence that none of the 30 or so colleagues that I work with currently are constrained by any such agreements. None. NOT A SINGLE ONE. And that isn't unusual-- it is the norm, at least in academic science. Besides, who in their right mind would do this sort of work for the money? The pay is not the most attractive aspect of doing science, especially at public universities!

So you're not "telling me the truth." I know that from direct, daily experience in my profession. I can only presume that you're speaking out of anger, and exaggerating because of it.
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ozone_man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #42
99. I think we're talking about a small portion of scientists.
I would be suspicious of science coming from Monsanto, Bayer, DOW Chemical, ..., or funded by such.

Or how about the military industrial complex that employs about a third to a half of engineers in one way or another? They're jobs that pay well, but what is the real value for human and non-human kind? Generally destructive to both.

But the poster is basically right in that many corporations are looking for profit, regardless of impact on environment. We should question funding of scientists doing safety and environmental impact studies, the same way we should question politicians getting money from PACs, lobbyists, etc. Money buys influence, corrupts, even in science. To think that it doesn't is to be naive.
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jeff47 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #99
111. Military research isn't quite what you think it is.
"but what is the real value for human and non-human kind? Generally destructive to both."

Do you own a microwave oven? Thank military-funded scientists who developed RADAR. People in Hati and the Chilean mine disaster didn't starve to death? Thank military-funded scientists and their research on nutrition. Lost a limb in a car accident? Your treatment was developed by military-funded scientists. Enjoy the Internet? Military-funded science and network research... And so on, and so on.

The military doesn't just fund how to blow stuff up. It's about the only remaining venue for basic research in the US. The private sector won't pay for it anymore, and Conservatives keep taking a hatchet to other science funding. But they'll leave the military alone.
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proverbialwisdom Donating Member (366 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #42
103. Scientific American editorial and other must read articles here.
Edited on Fri Oct-15-10 12:38 PM by proverbialwisdom
ARTICLE #1
http://www.gmwatch.org/latest-listing/1-news-items/11311-scientific-american-condemns-restrictions-on-gm-research

DO SEED COMPANIES CONTROL GM CROP RESEARCH?
Scientific American, Editorial, August 2009 edition, published 21 July 2009
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=do-seed-companies-control-gm-crop-research

"...Research on genetically modified seeds is still published, of course. But only studies that the seed companies have approved ever see the light of a peer-reviewed journal. In a number of cases, experiments that had the implicit go-ahead from the seed company were later blocked from publication because the results were not flattering.

"It is important to understand that it is not always simply a matter of blanket denial of all research requests, which is bad enough," wrote Elson J. Shields, an entomologist at Cornell University, in a letter to an official at the Environmental Protection Agency (the body tasked with regulating the environmental consequences of genetically modified crops), "but selective denials and permissions based on industry perceptions of how 'friendly' or 'hostile' a particular scientist may be toward technology."

Shields is the spokesperson for a group of 24 corn insect scientists that opposes these practices..."


ARTICLE #2
http://www.gmwatch.org/latest-listing/1-news-items/11573-gm-industrys-strong-arm-tactics-with-researchers-nature-biotechnology-

GM industry's strong-arm tactics with researchers - Nature Biotechnology
Monday, 12 October 2009 16:25
Under Wraps
NATURE BIOTECHNOLOGY, VOLUME 27, NUMBER 10, October 2009
http://www.emilywaltz.com/Biotech_crop_research_restrictions_Oct_2009.pdf

"The increasingly fractious relationship between public sector researchers and the biotech seed industry has come into the spotlight in recent months. In July, several leading seed companies met with a group of entomologists, who earlier in the year had lodged a public complaint with the US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) over restricted access to materials. In a letter to the EPA, the 26 public sector scientists complained that crop developers are curbing their rights to study commercial biotech crops. "No truly independent research can be legally conducted on many critical questions involving these crops ," they wrote.

In turn, the seed companies have expressed surprise at the outcry, claiming the issue is being overblown. And even though the July meeting, organized by the American Seed Trade Association in Alexandria, Virginia, did result in the writing of a set of principles for carrying out this research, the seed companies are under no compunction to follow them. "From the researchers’ perspective, the key for this meeting was opening up communication to discuss the problem," says Ken Ostlie, an entomologist at the University of Minnesota in St. Paul, who signed the complaint. "It will be interesting to see how companies implement the principles they agreed upon."

What is clear is that the seed industry is perceived as highly secretive and reluctant to share its products with scientists. This is fueling the view that companies have something to hide..."


ARTICLE #3
http://www.gmwatch.org/latest-listing/1-news-items/12567-scientists-under-attack-film-review

Wednesday, 13 October 2010 14:59
Scientists under attack: Genetic engineering in the magnetic field of money
By Bertram Verhaag
Review by Claire Robinson

Billed as "a political thriller on GMOs and freedom of speech", this film by the German film-maker Bertram Verhaag tells the stories of two scientists, Dr Arpad Pusztai and Dr Ignacio Chapela, whose research showed negative findings on GM foods and crops. Both suffered the fate of those who challenge the powerful vested interests that dominate agribusiness and scientific research. They were vilified and intimidated, attempts were made to suppress and discredit their research, and their careers were derailed.

Pusztai found that the internal organs of rats fed GM insecticidal potatoes either increased in size or did not develop properly compared with controls. His experiments turned up no less than 36 significant differences between GM-fed and non-GM-fed animals. Pusztai, encouraged by his research institute, gave a 150-second interview on British TV in which he summarised his findings and said it was unfair to use our fellow citizens as guinea pigs for GM foods.

For two days, Pusztai was treated as a hero by his institute. But following a phone call from UK prime minister Tony Blair to the institute's head, Pusztai was fired and gagged under threat of a lawsuit. His research team was disbanded and his data were confiscated. Lies were circulated about his research that he could not counter due to the gagging order, lifted only later when he was due to appear before a Parliamentary Committee. For Pusztai’s co-researchers, the gagging order remains in place for life.

Pusztai's results threatened the GM industry because they showed that it wasn't the insecticide engineered into the potatoes that damaged the rats, but the genetic engineering process itself. So the problem wasn't just with these GM potatoes but potentially with all GM foods on the market. The only solution for the industry and its friends in government was to shoot the messenger.

Traumatic though this was for Pusztai, it wasn't the biggest shock he had to face regarding GM foods. That came when he was asked to review safety submissions from the GM industry for crops we were already eating – and found that they were scientifically flimsy. "That was a turning point in my life," said Pusztai. "I was doing safety studies; they were doing as little as possible to get their foods on the market as quickly as they could."

Another scientist whose run-in with the GM industry is featured in the film is Ignacio Chapela, a molecular geneticist at UC Berkeley. His research, co-authored with David Quist and published in the journal Nature, revealed that Mexican maize had been contaminated with GM genes. The finding was explosive because Mexico is the centre of origin for maize and the planting of GM maize there was illegal.

Chapela found himself the target of a vicious internet campaign condemning him as more of an activist than a scientist and claiming that his paper was false. Nature's editor published a partial retraction of the paper. As Chapela points out in the film, the editor's action flew in the face of scientific method. In the normal way of things, a journal editor publishes a study that he and peer reviewers judge to be sound. It is for subsequent published studies to confirm or correct the findings. It is not for the editor to state that he would not have published a study had he known then what he knows now – without the benefit of further peer reviewed scientific input. The editor's move showed how the GM industry is rewriting the rules of science for its own ends.

To add insult to injury, the internet campaign against Chapela turned out not to have been initiated and fuelled not by his scientific peers but by fake citizens, "sockpuppets" invented by the Bivings Group, a public relations firm contracted by Monsanto.

Scientists Under Attack goes on to show how the GM industry has blocked the evolution of scientific knowledge. When Russian scientist Irina Ermakova's study found high mortality rates and low body weight in rats fed GM soy, and when Austrian government research found that decreased fertility in mice fed GM maize, the industry carried out its usual campaign of vilification. If the industry were interested in scientific truth, it would push for studies to be repeated with the alleged "flaws" corrected. But this never happens. Instead, GM companies use their patent-based ownership of GM crops to deny scientists access to research materials – the GM crop and the non-GM parent line control. So the original research showing problems with GM crops is buried under a deluge of smears and follow up studies are not done. For the public, the difficulty and expense involved in accessing full research papers makes it hard to find where the truth lies.

The film also highlights an extreme example of the corporate takeover of science – at University of California, Berkeley (UCB), where Chapela is a professor. In 1998, UCB entered into a $25 million research partnership with biotech company Novartis (now Syngenta). The deal provoked angry debate on campus and was criticized by a number of faculty members, including Chapela. Then in 2007, UCB entered into a $500 million research deal with oil giant BP. The partnership was negotiated in secret, without consultation even within the university. In return for its money, BP gained access to UCB’s researchers, control over the research agenda, and co-ownership of commercial rights over inventions. Chapela says of BP, "They decide what is called science."

The partnership was later spun as one of BP's "beyond petroleum" projects that would take us out of the age of dirty oil and into the new age of solar and renewable energy. But the small print makes clear that the deal focuses on genetic engineering for biofuels – proprietary technologies that will be patented and owned by BP.

Most of us think of the enclosure of knowledge by industry interests in the abstract – as figures on a balance sheet, and conflicts of interest lurking in the darker corners of scientists' psyches. But as Scientists Under Attack memorably shows, at UCB it's played out on the physical level. UCB is a divided campus, reminiscent of Berlin before the Wall came down. There is the public area, which looks like everyone’s idea of a pleasant university campus. Then, enclosed in high-security fencing and ringed with “no entry” signs, there is the privatized area, the part of the university that’s been co-opted by BP. No amount of reading about the UCB-BP deal can prepare you for the sight of what was once a great public university being turned into something resembling a top-secret military installation.

Seemingly, the culture of the university has changed along with its alignment. Once a celebrated centre of free speech and academic debate, UCB has become a place where tree-sitting students peacefully protesting against the felling of old oaks on campus are caged inside three rows of high-security fencing. In contrast, the university's colony of (not very dangerous) hyenas are judged only to need two.

UCB has dealt harshly with critics of its deals with industry. In 2003, five years after Chapela's protest against the Novartis deal and two years after publication of his Mexican maize findings, he was denied tenure. The university only backed down after Chapela threatened to sue. In Scientists Under Attack, he says: "In genetic engineering, one question means one career. You ask one question, you get the answer. You might or might not be able to publish it. That's the end of your career. What's unique in my case is that I survived."

Chapela adds that the most powerful censorship does not come directly from the GM industry but from closer to home: "It's in the consciousness of the scientist. You censor yourself." In other words, it's not so much that the GM industry has taken away our power, but rather that we've given it away.

While some sectors of the scientific community remain silent in the face of GM industry dominance, nature is proving a tougher opponent. GM monocultures worldwide are threatened by the rapid spread of glyphosate-resistant superweeds. Here again, no amount of reading about the issue can match the visual impact of weeds effortlessly smothering a field of GM soy plants in Brazil. Only a few years previously, as part of the marketing drive for GM soy, farmers had been invited to a party with free booze. They were told to arrange their hoes in a circle and ritually burn them. The idea was that hoes were redundant because weeds could be controlled with glyphosate. Now, glyphosate no longer works and farmers are being forced back to hoeing.

The message about who is really in charge is underlined by public interest attorney and activist Andrew Kimbrell, who is interviewed fishing for trout in a river. He points out that trout eat caddis-flies, which can be killed by Bt maize toxin leaching into rivers. Kimbrell says the GM industry follows a linear economic model based on a drive towards more and more production, regardless of the cost to nature and ourselves. He says this model of progress is a delusion: "Everything is made from the earth – these clothes, this camera, this fly rod. There is only one economy – the one that we see around us right now. The other economy, of capital and technology and the stock market, is all made up in our heads."

Kimbrell concludes the film by saying that industry hasn't grasped that we need to evolve into a stable economy enmeshed in ecology: "We are going to have to follow the laws of nature and not the artificial laws of any technology. The salmon come back to where they were born to spawn and die, and then the young come out. It's not linear, it's a life-giving circle."


ARTICLE #4
Effect of diets containing genetically modified potatoes expressing Galanthus nivalis lectin on rat small intestine
Dr Stanley WB Ewen FRCPath,Arpad Pusztai PhD
The Lancet - 16 October 1999 ( Vol. 354, Issue 9187, Pages 1353-1354 )
DOI: 10.1016/S0140-6736(98)05860-7


ARTICLE #5:
http://www.gmwatch.org/latest-listing/1-news-items/2987-seventh-anniversary-of-gm-safety-scandal
Seventh anniversary of GM safety scandal
Wednesday, 10 August 2005 11:17

Seven years ago today on the 10th August 1998 the GM debate changed forever.

The story began three years earlier. That's when the UK government's Scottish Office commissioned a three-year multi-centre research programme into the safety of GM food under the coordination of Dr Arpad Pusztai. At that time there was not a single publication in a peer-reviewed journal on the safety of GM food.

Dr Pusztai, a Fellow of the Royal Society of Edinburgh, was an eminent scientist. He was the world's leading expert on the plant proteins known as lectins. He had published three books and over 270 scientific studies.

He and his team fought off competition from 28 other research organisations from across Europe to be awarded the GBP1.6 million contract by the Scottish Office. The project methodology was also reviewed and passed by the Biotechnology and Biological Sciences Research Council (BBSRC) - the UK government's main funding body for the biological sciences...

...Andy Rowell, author of a book that deals extensively with the Royal Society's role in the Pusztai affair, writes, 'the fundamental flaw in the scientific establishment's response is not that they try and damn Pusztai with unpublished data, nor is it that they have overlooked published studies , but that in 1999, everyone agreed that more work was needed. Three years later, that work remains to be undertaken... scientific body, like The Royal Society, that allocates millions in research funds every year, could have funded a repeat of Pusztai's experiments.'

Nobody ever has.


ARTICLE #6
A seedy restriction on research
Clive Cookson (Science Blog)
Financial Times, August 11 2009
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c548253a-860e-11de-98de-00144feabdc0.html

"...Et tu, Brute?

A correspondent for an agricultural trade publication noted that nobody in the biotech industry could provide him with a single example of any other kind of product on the market that was protected in the way GM seeds were from scientific scrutiny.

And the science correspondent of the Financial Times - another solidly pro-GM publication - complained, 'Imagine pharmaceutical companies trying to prevent medical researchers comparing patented drugs or investigating their side-effects - it is unthinkable. Yet scientists cannot independently examine raw materials in the food supply or investigate plants that cover a lot of rural America'.

An article in Nature Biotechnology noted how even when research critical of GM did get published it was met by a wall of apparently orchestrated, ad hominem and unfounded attacks by GM proponents who, in the words of an editor for the Entomological Society of America, 'denigrate research by other legitimate scientists in a knee-jerk, partisan, emotional way that is not helpful in advancing knowledge and is outside the ideals of scientific inquiry'.

And it wasn't just scientific enquiry that Monsanto was exposed as strangling. An Associated Press investigation reported on confidential Monsanto contracts showing how the world's biggest seed developer is squeezing competitors, controlling smaller seed companies and aggressively protecting its multibillion-dollar market dominance..."


ARTICLE #7
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeffrey-smith/anniversary-of-a-whistleb_b_675817.html
Anniversary of a Whistle Blowing Hero
by Jeffrey Smith
August 9, 2010 01:40 PM


ARTICLE #8
http://us.mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE68C39320100913?ca=rdt
Industry has sway over food safety system: study
Mon, Sep 13 17:26 PM EDT
By Christopher Doering

"WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The food industry is jeopardizing U.S. public health by withholding information from food safety investigators or pressuring regulators to withdraw or alter policy designed to protect consumers, said a survey of government scientists and inspectors..."

http://www.ucsusa.org/scientific_integrity/abuses_of_science/food-safety.html?utm_source=SP&utm_medium=head&utm_campaign=SP-fda-survey-10-13-2010-head
Voices of Federal Food Safety Scientists and Inspectors
Survey: FDA and USDA Scientists (2010)


ARTICLE #9
http://e360.yale.edu/content/print.msp?id=2273
Companies Put Restrictions On Research into GM Crops

"A battle is quietly being waged between the industry that produces genetically modified seeds and scientists trying to investigate the environmental impacts of engineered crops. Although companies such as Monsanto have recently given ground, researchers say these firms are still loath to allow independent analyses of their patented and profitable seeds.

by Bruce Stutz

In February 2009, frustrated by industry restrictions on independent research into genetically modified crops, two dozen scientists representing public research institutions in 17 corn-producing states told the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) that the companies producing genetically modified (GM) seed "inhibit public scientists from pursuing their mandated role on behalf of the public good" and warned that industry influence had made independent analyses of transgenic crops impossible.

Unprepared for the scientists' public protest and the press accounts that followed it, the industry, through its American Seed Trade Association (ASTA), met with crop scientists. Late last year, ASTA agreed that, while still restricting research on engineered plant genes, it would allow researchers greater freedom to study the effects of GM food crops on soil, pests, and pesticide use, and to compare their yields and analyze their effects on the environment..."


ARTICLE #10
http://www.gmwatch.eu/component/content/ar...ey-bee-research
GM crops and honey bee research
Monday, 26 October 2009 14:50
Interview by Christof Potthof with the bee researcher Prof. Dr. Hans-Hinrich Kaatz, University of Halle-Wittenberg.

<...> Prof. Kaatz: Before starting the project with the Bt plants we had already done some research on possible hazards to the health of honey bees due to genetically modified herbicide resistant oil-seed rape (canola) and maize plants. We did not find anything negative here.

Apart from this we also investigated whether the genes that come from the pollen of the plants could be transferred to honey bees. This is called horizontal gene transfer. Our first step was to find out if genes from the plants could be transferred to the microorganisms in the digestive tract of the honey bees. Later on we aimed to determine how high the probability was that the honey bees incorporate the genes themselves. One must consider that the crossover of genes is one of the principal mechanisms of evolution. It happens in very many groups of organisms.

It was more a fundamental question of scientific principles than a practical problem. We cultivated the microorganisms with the pollen and the result was that the microorganisms had indeed taken up the pat gene. In the debate on genetic engineering it had always been said that one thing that could never happen was the horizontal transfer of newly inserted genes. We presented the results to the Nature journal and got two expert opinions. One was very positive, thinking it could be published immediately.

The other thought we should do an additional analysis, a so-called Southern blot which would further verify our results. Then he would back publication. We said, "We'll do that." We did the Southern blot and submitted the article again in the belief that there was now nothing in our way. For a long time we heard nothing at all from the editorial team at Nature but in the meantime we were visited by a ZDF (German public television channel) team who asked us about our research. At the time we told them that nothing could be broadcast until an agreement had been reached with Nature and the article had been published. They nevertheless did broadcast a television programme. It was even on the news – all before we had had a final decision from Nature. We intervened strongly whereupon one of the ZDF team said, "Wait a minute, don't you know that your article has been rejected." Until that moment we had had no idea. When we asked him how he knew he said that he had spoken to some people at Monsanto and they had told him. Naturally I was shocked. It is good that they get to know these things, but I find it awful that they should know before the authors know.

Christof Potthof: How extraordinary!

Prof. Kaatz: Well, you know that when the person making the decision has contacts to Monsanto says something ... good. But the editorial team – since they were the only ones to have had both reports - that they pass this on, I find that very annoying. Such a highly respected journal. They shouldn't need to do that. In fact such a review process should first and foremost be.....(falters)

Christof Potthof: ....discreet?

Prof. Kaatz: ....very discreet.

Christof Potthof: You probably don't know the names of either of these editors, do you?

Prof. Kaatz: No.

Christof Potthof: Do they know your name?

Prof. Kaatz: Yes, they get the paper and then of course they know the names of the authors. It is not anonymous. Unless you insist. Sometimes that happens. In sensitive cases. I didn't think our data was so sensitive. We have repeated the experiment. And we have been able to prove that horizontal transfer occurs with a whole series of microorganisms of different kinds. (....)

Christof Potthof: Were your findings published somewhere else later on?

Prof. Kaatz: No, not yet. Since they are something no one wants to hear it is difficult to find an adequate place for them. (....)


ARTICLE #11
http://www.gmwatch.org/latest-listing/1-news-items/11801-pusztai-to-receive-stuttgart-peace-prize-

Pusztai to receive Stuttgart Peace Prize
Friday, 11 December 2009 10:52
We've just heard that Dr Arpad Pusztai and Dr Susan Bardocz will be presented with this year's Stuttgart Peace Prize. The award is for their tireless advocacy for independent risk research. Both have made an essential contribution to a broader understanding of the dangers of genetic manipulation. The award also honours their courage and scientific integrity as well as their undaunted insistence on the public's right to know...


...more.

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proverbialwisdom Donating Member (366 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-10 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #103
128. Working link for article #10
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
17. K&R
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
21. Bayer. The same company that sponsored research by Dr. Josef Mengele.
Killing bees is a small time offense for a company with Bayer's legacy.
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stopbush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. The USA - the same country that tried to kill off the indigenous people.
You live in the USA. Why should I believe a word you say?
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. Wow -- !! Never knew that -- !!
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #21
28. +1 nt
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hendo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #21
57. HOW DARE A GERMAN COMPANY SPONSOR A GERMAN SCIENTIST!!!
Do you want us to boycott BMW as well, after all they made fighter planes for the Nazis?

Perhaps we should boycott all German companies that existed during WW2, after all, they all supported the Nazi agenda during the war.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #57
61. Yeah, like he was any old average scientist.
:eyes:

Bayer has a long, ugly history. They are simply one of the most evil companies in the world.

http://www.corporatewatch.org/?lid=317
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hendo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #61
78. HE was a nazi scientist in the Nazi regime
As a German company they actively supported the regime that they were part of. They took on and supported research into areas that were important for the regime.

The Nazis were horrible, no doubt, but a German company having policies and doing experiments that benefited German imperialism during WW2 should not be a death sentence for that company.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #57
86. Why not?
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
22. Kicked and recommended.
Thanks for the thread, WilliamPitt.
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chervilant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
24. hmm...
Thank you for an essential and timely article about the ongoing decimation of our honeybee population, WilliamPitt. I've been following this event since it's earliest accessible mention, and it's increasingly difficult to find anything about it outside the scientific community.

I would like to encourage all of you who are squabbling about what is 'causing' the honeybees to die en masse to consider the fact that we are witnessing a catastrophic event that is an immediate threat to our ecosystem. Notice how quiet is the mainstream media about this issue...
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stopbush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. If it were killer bees we were talking about, the MSM would be all over it.
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. only if they were 'Africanized Killer Bees'
actually they'll probably pull that one out of their asses before the the elctions.
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stopbush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #33
50. How soon before Africanized becomes Kenyanized?
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 03:22 PM
Response to Original message
25. K&R --- science based on a dollar bill will kill all of us !!
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hendo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #25
58. How do you propose that the research be funded then? NT
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #58
68. Interesting question, because US has been using our tax dollars for
Edited on Fri Oct-15-10 12:46 AM by defendandprotect
research and then turning the product/technology over to private businesses in many cases --

including drug research we pay for --

Government has also used taxpayer money to militarize our universities and colleges --

With so much corruption of government and educational hierarchies -- and military --

by elites, it's difficult to even envision an uncorrupted source right now.

Let's think about it this way .... who financed solar power? Or Wind power?

Our government did very little to boost that research and the systems required.

And, ultimately, large business -- BP in particular with wind -- has come along to buy

out the research/systems!

And, clearly, oil industry has been working for 60+ years to propagandize and lie to

Americans to keep alternative energy from taking hold -- and spent billions to finance

their lies and disinformation about Global Warming.

Baiscally, it looks like the same old story -- that true scientists continue to come to

the fore -- not for profit -- but because they are natural researchers and inventors.

Same with medical profession -- are we not worse off today in medical knowledge and

standing since doctors self-selected based on medicine as a "high paying profession"?

People with healing skills used to rise based on their abilities -- today that would be

impossible. And even further today's rubrics of medical education point less to free and

open thought and more to rigid following of teachings.

Obviously, as we see with the questions re the bees -- "Blessed are the bees!" -- we will

not enrich our knowledge with scientists funded by corporations.






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hendo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #68
79. You do realize that the federal government doesn't have enough money
to fund all of the research in the country, right?

In fact, most is not all medical research is funded by private corporations. Should we not have new drugs? Should we not have better cancer treatment?

Your statement is far too broad to be taken seriously.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #79
88. True. There's only so much left after the Pentagon budget and wars. And Halliburton, Blackwater,....
And "public" charter schools.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #88
108. Actually, we're not supposed to notice the cesspool our budget really represents -- !!!
Where would we be without pepetual wars and mercenaries -- ?

Without what it costs us to destroy public education, students and teachers -- ?

Without subsidizing the oil industry which in turn gives us Global Warming -- ?

And the nuclear energy industry which was dead in the water until Obama resurrected them -- ?

$36 billion in loan guarantees there!

And then there's the hundreds of millions we're donating to "faith-based" religious organizations --

most of them belonging to the RCC -- !!

May actually be billions now -- not sure --




:)
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #79
107. They obviously direct much research as to what government needs -- weapons ...MIT?
and to what Big Pharma can profit from --

Government has $36 billion in loan guarantees to benefit nuclear energy which no

wants -- similar to situation with public not wanting off-shore oil drilling --

both of these bans overturned.


We have seen the destruction of the natural sources of drugs over and again -- many

before we could even understand what those plants/drugs could do!

There is no "drug" by Big Pharma which isn't based in some way on a natural plant!


Your understanding is much too narrow in its perspective to be taken seriously!



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LTX Donating Member (400 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #68
122. What a bizarre little screed.
You say:

"...are we not worse off today in medical knowledge and standing since doctors self-selected based on medicine as a 'high paying profession'?"

Worse off then when? Precisely, please.


"People with healing skills used to rise based on their abilities -- today that would be impossible."

What exactly are these "healing skills" you speak about? Bloodletting? Incantations? And on what basis do you think doctors today "rise" in the profession? Cage matches?


"And even further today's rubrics of medical education point less to free and open thought and more to rigid following of teachings."

Ahh, yes. Those evil teachings. Like genetics, and biochemistry, and neuroscience, and virology, and immunology, and all that evil hard science stuff. What we really need to do is get back to "free and open" sweat lodges.


"Obviously, as we see with the questions re the bees -- "Blessed are the bees!" -- we will not enrich our knowledge with scientists funded by corporations."

You do realize that, for example, Baylor Research Institute, Mayo Clinic, MD Anderson, Cleveland Clinic, Dana-Farber Cancer Institute, Harvard Medical, Johns Hopkins, and virtually every other medical research institute and hospital in the world is the recipient of evil "corporate funding." I don't suppose you're willing to replace all that funding with contributions from your own wallet.

Then again, I'm reasonably sure you don't view money as even important to the medical profession. After all, how much does eye of newt and wort of hog cost?

People like you scare me.




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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
27. Wow, the Times is a true disappointment
covering up the truth.

No honor.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
30. Sounds like "Montana bee researcher Dr. Jerry Bromenshenk"
found what he was paid to find.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. Yep it certainly does.
Edited on Thu Oct-14-10 05:23 PM by truedelphi
And more and more often, you hear of researchers who say that this condition or that condition is "genetic."

However when you look back into the stats on breast cancer (just to have an example) you see that women in Japan, during the late part of the nineteenth century, had only one case of breast cancer for every 65 women. The diet then and there was high in dried fish, seaweeds, vegetables and so on.

Then you contrast those stats with the women who moved from Japan to the USA in the late forties and fifties. Once they began to eat as American women do, their breast cancer stats moved to the one in ten situation - much like the risk factor that one in four for Caucasian women in America face.

So it's not simply "genetics." It is "genetics" plus environmental factors.

But the "industry" researchers rarely comment on that. If they did, they would be pointing to the very industries whose products like cleaning products, pesticides, make-up, diet etc. are responsible for the increase in the breast cancer risk but who are paying htem the research monies.

However, indie researchers do make that comment, as they are more inclined to be able to state the truth about cancer.

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TZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #35
83. As someone IN the industry I call total and COMPLETE bullshit
on your post. I don't know ANY BIOPHARMA scientist who doesn't acknowledge both genetic and environmental factors influence cancer. However it is well known AND PROVEN THROUGH GENETIC TESTING..that genetic defects DO EXIST.
And just because the lay person doesn't hear about something doesn't mean the scientists don't consider it or are debating it! I AM SO SICK OF THIS MEME THAT SCIENTISTS ARE INFLUENCED BY MONEY. In my 15 years in the field I have NEVER EVER EVER met any scientist that changed a hypothesis, theoriy or even personal belief based on money given for funding. BUT WHAT THE HELL DOES A BIOLOGIST IN THE FIELD KNOW.
:banghead:

You don't go into science looking to get "paid" you go cause you are curious about answers. Fuck this scientist as money grubbing Nazi shit. It is not even CLOSE to true in 99% of research.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #83
104. If you have never ever ever met any of the scientists who are corrupted, then you
Edited on Fri Oct-15-10 12:42 PM by truedelphi
Apparently do not attend any state meetings, FDA hearings, etc.

I can point to the Aspartame hearings under Reagan. A noted neuro-biologist stated that if Aspartame was allowed, then there should definitely be a warning on the label that is should not be for the consumption of women who are pregnant or for children under the ages of five. But industry scoffed at his precaution, and there is no such warning. The neuro-biologist was concerned about the neuro toxic effects of Aspartame in terms of how the wiring of the brain in young children might be affected by their ingesting this stuff in diet drinks, or receiving the substance through the bloodstream during their fetal development when the moms ingest it and they are in the womb.

And the High Fructose Corn Syrup hearings under Reagan. One scientist stated in the HFCS hearings that it takes about three times the amount of water to flush a unit of HFCS out of an individual's body, compared to sugar. He warned that there would be a huge increase in diabetes should the switch to HFCS go ahead. Again, rather than be pro-active, industry said, "Well, why don't we wait and see. You don't have enough people in your studies to convince us.

I can also point to the really really scary hearings on MTBE in Sacramento California when MTBE was being put into the gasoline in this state in quite high proportions. You should have heard of all the industry-supported studies that had American scientists saying that this was so safe a product that kids could brush their teeth with it. I sat through these hearings, and the dozens of not hundreds of Corporate spokespeople quoting American scientists and their research that showed the safety of MTBE.

But the governor listened to the half million people who were pointing to the health effects they experienced.

Luckily for this state, and for the rest of the nation, the governor at the time, Grey
Davis (D) appointed one of the few honest, non-industry funded and credible scientists out there, John Froines, to head the Blue Ribbon Panel on MTBE. Froines and his panel did their extensive testing of MTBE and they came up with the fact that in terms of risk to benefit THERE WAS NO BENEFIT, and a GREAT DEAL OF RISK. This disapproval of MTBE is one of the reasons that Big Oil funded the voter-approved removal of Gov. Grey Davis, with Ahnold who was supported by Big Oil money to take his place.

And for several years after the Blue Ribbon Panel and their conclusive study of MTBE, there was still a lot of American scientists hired to do more research finding funded by Big Oil, and their studies were reported by the Corrupt Mainstream Media as effectively repudiating the Blue Panels' findings.

Several years back, I posted an entire rebuttal of the News Media with respect to the MTBE issue over at Daily Kos, and my headline was "Truth and the Corruption of the Associated Press." My report was most carefully detailed, with regards to the fact that the "slant" the news media now puts on "science" is one of fabrication and lies.

I can point to the hearings on vaccines.

First a story about Leuren Moret, who was attending an International Conference on pollutants and dangers of modern lifestyles. She was seated across the table from two scientists, one an American and the other man was Japanese. The American began scoffing at the Japanese scientist and saying, "Well you Japanese are going ahead with changing your vaccine schedule for infants and children, yet you lack any hard data on these vaccines programs."

The Japanese scientist returned the comment with a smile, a small hesitation, and then the reply: "Yes, we currently lack hard data. But hopefully in a matter of a decade, we will have hard data on the effects of vaccinating newborns and toddlers, vs a nation that has not done that. And it will data based on Human Beings."

Leuren was horrified. She leaned over the table and said to the Japanesse scientist: "Is your nation doing research using your own population of newborns, children and toddlers?

The Japanese scientists said, "What we plan to do is use our newborns, infants and toddlers as the control, with the American newborns, infants and toddlers to be the guinea pigs, as that is what your nation is doing to the population there with their vaccination schedule."

This nation of ours does have a panel of "experts" for oversight of the vaccine industry but the majority of these experts have close ties to the Big Pharma industry. Do you know that in the last five years, the numbers of newborns born with jaundice is soaring - to a high now of seventy percent!! When my son was born, circa mid-seventies, via a midwife, he was her 965th birthing, and she had only two cases of jaundice in her newborn population! Just what the heck is going on that we have jaundice as a "normal" situation in our Big Hospitals these days!!

And what has happened in just the last five years? Why the Well and Healthy Newborn Clinic, where the newborn is taken from the mom and injected with the Hep vaccine. This vaccine is one my very well educated doctor would not want me to have when I was forty three years old. As it affects the liver. It was just on the news this Monday that some new study out there having an impaired liver and having jaundice after birth are factors that can cause a toddler to develop autism. But yet the vaccine industry was allowed to do this "newborn" program, in defiance of the fact that statistically the BENEFIT TO RISK shows NO BENEFIT and a great deal of risk.

(Hepatitis is not something that your average middle class infant will experience. It is a disease of shared needles and unsafe sex practices. And it also is carried in utero by the mother, but a very simple blood test can show if she has the disease or not, and that child and that child alone should then be vaccinated. Currently more babies die and are seriously injured from the Hep vaccine than are killed by the disease! It is as though we have become a society that is superstitious about shooting up our kids with non-preventative "safety" measures.)


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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #104
109. K&R -- PLEASE make this a separate thread ..... everyone should read your post ....
Hi truedelphi --

A very concerning situation, indeed --

Capitalism is suicidal in its exploitation of nature, natural resources, animal-life

and even other human beings according to various myths of "inferiority."

Add the drive for the dollar bill to that and we're cooperating in our own murders!


Thank you!

:)
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jeff47 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #104
112. You really don't know science.
"A noted neuro-biologist stated that if Aspartame was allowed, then there should definitely be a warning on the label that is should not be for the consumption of women who are pregnant or for children under the ages of five. But industry scoffed at his precaution, and there is no such warning."

Please point to the increased incidence of disease caused by Aspartame consumption that proved this noted neuro-biologist correct. It's been 3 decades now. Surely a horrific epidemic is upon us....or he was wrong.

"One scientist stated in the HFCS hearings that it takes about three times the amount of water to flush a unit of HFCS out of an individual's body, compared to sugar."

You don't flush either out of your body. Your body consumes them. Your scientist doesn't seem to understand the basics of metabolism, so we should trust his conclusions?

"This disapproval of MTBE is one of the reasons that Big Oil funded the voter-approved removal of Gov. Grey Davis, with Ahnold who was supported by Big Oil money to take his place."

...Which is why MTBE is still banned. Wait, that doesn't make any sense. If big oil installed their puppet because Davis blocked MTBE, how come their puppet failed to do their bidding?

"First a story about Leuren Moret, who was attending an International Conference on pollutants and dangers of modern lifestyles. She was seated across the table from two scientists, one an American and the other man was Japanese. The American began scoffing at the Japanese scientist and saying, "Well you Japanese are going ahead with changing your vaccine schedule for infants and children, yet you lack any hard data on these vaccines programs.
<...>
The Japanese scientists said, "What we plan to do is use our newborns, infants and toddlers as the control, with the American newborns, infants and toddlers to be the guinea pigs, as that is what your nation is doing to the population there with their vaccination schedule.""

Your story makes no sense. So the Japanese were changing their vaccination schedule, but they were going to be the "control" group? If they were the control group, they would not be changing their vaccination schedule. If both the US and the Japanese were changing their schedule to a more aggressive vaccination schedule, then you'd have no usable data. If one changed to a more aggressive, and one to a slower vaccination schedule, you'd still have no usable data.

"Do you know that in the last five years, the numbers of newborns born with jaundice is soaring - to a high now of seventy percent!! When my son was born, circa mid-seventies, via a midwife, he was her 965th birthing, and she had only two cases of jaundice in her newborn population!"

Jaundice takes time to develop. It can not be induced in the 1-2 days that a baby is in a "Big Hospital".

"Hepatitis is not something that your average middle class infant will experience. It is a disease of shared needles and unsafe sex practices."

Hepatitis is actually a family of viruses. You are describing Hepatitis-C. Hep-A is very easily transmitted, roughly about as easy to catch as the flu virus. Hep-B is harder to catch than Hep-A, but more deadly.

"Currently more babies die and are seriously injured from the Hep vaccine than are killed by the disease!"

Link to the peer-reviewed study?
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-10 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #112
129. i will give you three separate responses, one for each of hte sections to be discussed.
been very busy phone banking for candidates in my area, but will have the responses tomorrow.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-10 02:31 AM
Response to Reply #112
130. Aspartame - The Big Nicotine Story all over again.
Edited on Sun Oct-17-10 02:36 AM by truedelphi
When you look into the Congresional record to see who said what and when and where, you have none other than the FDA's own toxicologist, Dr. Adrian Gross, testifying to Congress during at least one of Searle's studies in August of 1985 that it had been "established beyond any reasonable doubt that aspartame is capable of inducing brain tumors in experimental animals and that this predisposition of it (ed: as a damaging agent) is of extremely high significance." <snip> Same Source: "In view of these indications that the cancer causing potential of aspartame is a matter that had been established way beyond a reasonable doubt, one can ask: What is the reason for the apparent refusal by the FDA to invoke for this food additive the so-called Delaney Amendment to the Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act"

The Delaney Amendment makes it illegal to allow any residues of cancer causing chemicals in foods. In his concluding testimony Gross asked, "Given the cancer causing potential of aspartame, how would the FDA justify its position that it views a certain amount of aspartame as constituting an allowable daily intake or 'safe' level of it? Is that position in effect not equivalent to setting a 'tolerance' for this food additive and thus a violation of that law? And if the FDA itself elects to violate the law, who is left to protect the health of the public?" Congressional Record SID835:131 (August 1, l985)

Additionally, the peer reviewed study by Trocho, et al, from the Department of Molecular Biology, University of Barcelona, clearly shows from radiolabeled product how the formaldehyde from aspartame binds tightly to DNA, resulting in both single and double strand breaks. This effect is accumulative, injuring not only DNA but also cellular proteins, many of which are enzymes. Because mitochondria have very few DNA repair enzymes, this damages goes unrepaired, leading to major suppression of cellular energy - a major contributing cause of excitotoxicity, the central process of many neurodegenerative diseases." These diseases include lupus, impaired learning function, memory difficulties, Multiple Sclerosis, diabetes and heart attacks.

As a writer I have taken the time to talk to public health nurses, who are always eager to find someone finally willing to hear about their observations of the deterioration in terms of the health of children over the past four decades. Whereas in the classrooms of the fifties and sixties, maybe as many as 15% of the children had some learning disorder, now often forty to fifty and in some cases, sixty percent of the children are fighting learning disabilities.

Back to the Trocho, et al, Univ. of Barcelona study: "Because of the accumulative damage associated with aspartame, even low dose consumption over many years can result in significant DNA injury. This poses a significant danger to those with DNA disorders or who have impaired functioning of DNA repair enzymes, which includes those with Lupus, cancer, neurodegenerative disorders (Alzheimer's dementia, Parkinson's disease, ALS), mitochondrial dysfunction and diabetes. It also poses a significant danger to the developing baby, since DNA disrupting during neurogenesis can be devastating."

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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
32. K & R
:thumbsup:
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
41. Kick
Edited on Thu Oct-14-10 06:47 PM by ProudDad
Too important to sink...

This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper.
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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
43. THANK YOU for finding and posting this article...
I am a beekeeper and have been telling people that that NYT article just didn't have the current and/or correct info. And as DU has taught me over the years, there were very few links to real information offered in it. Amazing how lies spread faster than truth. The Bayer and Monsanto involvement is pretty well outlined in the indie documentary movie 'Nicotine Bees' which I saw earlier this year. Funny how when some countries in Europe stopped using the nicotine based inpesticides their bee populations returned.

Will have to repost this on Facebook so my friends understand what I was raving about last week...

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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #43
47. Hi, rosesaylavee.
We're small scale beekeepers too.
We live far away from urban areas, factory agriculture, GM crops, neighbors, and Commercial Bee Factory Farms
GM crops and pesticides are banned from our hilltop.
We don't feed our bees Corn Syrup, or move the hives to other locations.

We haven't had a CCD problem.
We know several others who keep bees in our very rural area, and none of them have had a CCD problem either.







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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #47
51. Unfortunately here in No. IL we are in the thick of corn and soybeans
I would highly recommend the Nicotine Bees movie... it lays out a pretty convincing case against Bayer.

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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #51
70. I am really hating Bayer at this point. And then there is the nasty little business
that crop mono-cultures depend on bees pollinating, just as diversified vrop cultures do.

So the bees are packed up from their "real "homes" in Florida, and are trekked for six days across country to somewhere in California. There they dine only on almonds, for six full weeks, then they are driven up to Washington to pollinate the apple orchards, and so for four weeks they dine only on the apple nectar, and then they are driven to the Midwest or somewhere for some other mono culture.

The bees end up frazzled and delpeted of vital nutrients - so if Bayer's product doesn't kill them, their lifestyle allows them to be wide open to diseases.
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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 07:18 AM
Response to Reply #70
76. Well, without the large beekeepers, we wouldn't have those crops...
That has been going on for years and tho it is no doubt hard on the bees, that's not the problem. Bayer and share some of your concern with the ever growing influence of Monsanto. The scenario from Nicotine Bees is this: Monsanto coats their seeds with the Bayer pesticide. The plant grows. It flowers. The remaining pesticide is now in the flower that effects the bees when they come to pollinate. Voila. Poisoned, disoriented bees can't find their way home and die.

I think the European countris Germany and Italy and France have banned this particular pesticide and their bee populations have returned ... whereas the US has made it available to homeowners for use in their own yards. I went ahead and bought the movie Nicotine Bees last night on Amazon ... don't have the particular pesticide(s)names yet but it's listed at the end of that movie.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #76
102. I didn't mean to only pick on the large bee keepers.
But the large mono cultured fields of only one thing affect everyone.

In California, those mono crops give the state the justification for tidy little deals with pesticide companies so that the civilian portion of the population in the cities has spraying all around them. I lost my skin pigment in 1981-82 due to heavy, state-mandated malathion spraying over Silicon Valley. And that was under a Democratic Governor.

The mono cultures also effectively shut any attempts to return to diversity out of the picture. I remember someone here sating how a relative wanted to avoid growing corn for awhile, so they put a lot of their acreage into sunflowers. There is a huge market for sunflower seeds, but there wasn't any storage in their area for that crop - all the silo space was for corn. So IIRC, that crop was a bust - there was simply nowhere to store it.

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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #102
105. Now I get it...
So sorry about how this has effected you. I am a big propopent of permaculture... I really think that is the way we need to move if we want to be sustainable and survive as a species. Suburbia and elsewhere will have to give up their love of grass turf and move to more edible landscape... which won't require such heavy use of fertilizers and pesticide.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #70
80. We believe that is the heart of the problem.
Even when the Factory Bees are NOT on the road, they are kept in unbelievably crowded Bee Yards with thousands of other hives crammed into a small area. It isn't possible for these bees to forge for their natural foods, so they are fed Corn Syrup.

On top of that, when they are on the road, they are exposed to other Factory Bees from every part of the country... a recipe for widespread contagion. And that is in addition to the exposure to who knows how much pesticide, herbicide, and other chemicals used to amp up production on these Factory Farms.

If I were a bee, I would run away from "home" too if I had to live like that.
Most of the studies I have seen focus on losses occurring on Industrialized Bee Farms.
I have NOT seen a study of the occurrence of CCD among small scale, decentralized, organic BeeKeepers.
From our own experience and that of those beekeepers we know, CCD is not as common.
Anecdotal testimony only, but it is our truth as we know it.
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Mimosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #47
62. I LOVE!!! the photo in the above post.
That image is gorgeous. BVar, what type of plant is that?
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #62
81. Thank You.
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #47
63. bvar22, that photo is absolutely stunning. Thank you.
I have observed bees with fascination and admiration for decades, but until I saw that picture I never REALLY saw them.

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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #63
82. Oh shoot, you're just saying that....
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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #82
106. Love your photo too!
Made it my profile. So many people mistake wasps for honeybees... so occasionally post a photo so my FB friends at least can get an idea of how they really look.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #47
87. I garden in my yard in Los Angeles, I have lot's of bees.
No pesticides, no chemical fertilizers, just let 'em grow. Lot's of bees, baby lizards, praying mantids, birds ...
:hi:
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proud patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 07:13 PM
Response to Original message
46. oh man this pisses me off
grrrr
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AllyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 09:37 PM
Response to Original message
52. I keep wondering if there is a link between CCD and white nose disease in bats
I've still felt an intuition (not scientifically-based! just a gut feeling) that it has something to do with gentically modified organisms (think Monsanto).
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TZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #52
84. considering there isn't a shred of biology to support your "idea"
I would leave basic science to people who actually know how genetics works...And you tell me how a fungus is related to a genetic marker--thats like telling me a fern and a lion can reproduce.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #84
94. People who "wonder" ....
..are the beginning of the Scientific process.
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LTX Donating Member (400 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #94
115. I wonder if viruses behave in accordance with quantum mechanics,
so that if a person in Tokyo gets sick, a person in Toledo gets better. (In short, productive wondering takes an education in the topic being wondered about.)
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #115
117. If you really wonder that,
form a hypothesis and begin collecting data.

It doesn't change the fact that the Scientific Process begins with "I wonder..."

People who "wonder" are often ridiculed by those comfortable inside the smug box of their ideology.
Do you know what happened to the first "wonderers" who began to "wonder" if the World was not flat?
or if maybe the Sun did not revolve around the Earth?

I is not wise to attack the wonderers, even if they seem ridiculous to you.
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LTX Donating Member (400 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #117
123. Wonder all you want. It's not going to amount to a hill of beans
if you're ignorant of the science that preceded you.
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AllyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-10 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #117
124. Thanks for your response. It was simply a "wonder" since not a lot is known about
what is hurting these two species. It is interesting that the two seem to have arisen (at least in the public consciousness) around the same time.

Too bad our compatriot seems to think I am a moron for stating this. Guess my two Bach degrees in sciences don't make me qualified to comment on anything here in a public forum that is related to science.
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AllyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-10 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #84
125. Ferns and lions do reproduce.
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gristy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 10:52 PM
Response to Original message
60. That headline rang a little hollow for me when I saw it. There was something odd about it.
Now I know what. Thanks for posting.
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 11:35 PM
Response to Original message
64. Thanks for posting this, William. When one's livelihood, status, and
well being depend upon NOT seeing something right in front of one's eyes, it's amazing how quickly many of us will develop 'selective vision' or go blind.

There's no doubt that there are many scientists who are not tainted by corporate dollars, but to ignore the reality of the pervasive influence of research money from said corporations is ridiculous.

Recommended and kicked.
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mistertrickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-10 11:40 PM
Response to Original message
65. The beekeeper who first discovered CCD is David Hackenberg.
He made a good point on 60 Minutes a few years back: we've had viruses and funguses for years--the only thing new is new pesticides. Bayer's own environmental warning labels describe exactly what is happening."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19233858/


He said he is convinced pesticides, and in particular a kind of pesticide called neonicotinoids, were harming his bees.

"I'm quizzing every farmer around," Hackenberg said. "If you're going to use that stuff, then you're going to have go to somebody else."
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Tumbulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 12:28 AM
Response to Original message
67. My observations of commercial beekeepers in my area of N. Calif.
is that they do not care for their bees properly during the non-paying season. During the almond season when they are paid to bring their hives, they supply water to the bees. But after those flowers are finished, they just leave the hives and the bees have to fly long distances to find flowers and water. My water troughs for my sheep are always filled with bees, my crops have 10 bees per flower- actually something I do not want as it is flat out dangerous for me to work with my plants with so many bees literally starving, waiting for my plant's flowers to open. And I feel sad seeing them in this state. There should be animal husbandry minimal standards for bees. So, I keep thinking that some of these collapsed colonies are the result of the lack of care common among the modern large scale beekeepers

They remind me of the cattle left to wander in the deserts of Arizona and it strikes me as the same wrong wing teabagger philosophy of just using anything and everyone up to make money. They make money renting the bees to pollinate the crops and then leave them at the easiest cheapest place for them to just survive in the non paying season. They exhibit no love or care for their bees - nothing like the small beekeepers.

All animals require care and attention and my guess is that these neglected hives are then more vulnerable to everything- manmade and natural.
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fasttense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 06:38 AM
Response to Reply #67
75. The industrialization of bee keeping is as devastating as
the industrialization of chicken and egg production or any farming endeavor.

The industrialized farms treat their animals and insects like disposable waste, with no consideration for their well being.

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pam4water Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 01:43 AM
Response to Original message
69. Good article thanks for posting.
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 02:20 AM
Response to Original message
71. Thanks for passing this story along.
K&R.
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 04:53 AM
Response to Original message
72. IG Farbin's ghost is still at it...
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onlyadream Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 06:30 AM
Response to Original message
74. This past summer I had two bumble bees land on my porch
in the same exact spot. Both trying to squeeze through the planks for some reason. I felt so bad for them, I picked them up and placed them both on a flower.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #74
121. were they carpenter bees...?
Edited on Fri Oct-15-10 06:34 PM by mike_c
If they were, they were "trying to squeeze through the planks" because that's where they lay eggs-- in tunnels excavated from wood, very often in the sides of houses and porches.

Here's a carpenter bee:

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onlyadream Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-10 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #121
126. I don't think so
and the porch is made from composit wood, so I don't know that would attract them. These bees didn't have such large black bottoms (from what I remember). But that's interesting, I never knew such bees existed.
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onlyadream Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-10 07:32 AM
Response to Reply #121
127. I spoke too soon..
I just did a search on carpenter bees and, yes, I think they probably were. Very interesting. Thanks.
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WVRICK13 Donating Member (930 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 07:48 AM
Response to Original message
77. I Used To Think
the problem was the corporations. Now I tend to think the problem is with greedy individuals who lack ethics. Individuals who will sell out the entire human population for short term financial gain. Greed is the problem, combined with very little forethought. If you have reproduced I would think you would be concerned about the planet you are leaving your heirs, but I am obviously wrong. People today will sell out their species for a little more luxury. The more people I meet the more I like my cats.
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mirrera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 09:44 AM
Response to Original message
91. Bees and organic farms...
We have an abundance of bees always in our organic back yard. As far as I know none of the organic farmers have experienced the colony collapse of the big agra farms.

Does anyone know if any places that do NOT use pesticides have experienced it?
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InvisibleTouch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #91
93. It's true that organic beekeepers have had far fewer problems.
I can't say they've had *no* problems, but it's been significantly less. As far as bees travel, there will always be some who leave the organically-grown orchard or garden and encounter toxins. But most have done well. So while this virus/fungus combo may be the proximal cause of the collapse, the evidence still suggests environmental contamination - i.e. pesticides, etc. - as the ultimate cause. The animals' immune systems have been so damaged that they can't fight off the pathogens, which they normally have no problems with.
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SOS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 10:11 AM
Response to Original message
95. The New York Times/Science = corporate propaganda
This is nothing new.

Just go back and review the articles by Gina Kolata over the past 23 years.
Whether AIDS research, silicone breast implants, breast cancer, food irradiation or environmental hormones, she always sides with big business.

From Mark Dowie in The Nation July 6, 1998:

"There is a problem at the Times that needs to be corrected if the paper is to attain the same status in science as it has in foreign and domestic coverage.
In science the paper tends to side with corporate power."









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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
110. Kick
:kick:
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mtnester Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
113. This will be our #1 discussion at our area association of beekeepers
monthly meeting next Thursday. I expect it to be loud and lots of people talking (we are a gregarious, chatty bunch who will talk all things bees for HOURS) We all have separate and sometimes differing opinions and methods, which makes for a really interesting debate.

we already received updates on these topics relating to Bayer as well.

If the bees go, so does a large portion of the earth's population...we take this, and conterfeit honey, VERY seriously.

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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #113
118. all of the world's staple crops are wind pollinated....
The meme that disappearing honey bees will cause the collapse of human populations or civilization is just absurd. It will hurt agribiz, certainly, and it would be devastating for the bee keeping industry, but native pollinators can continue to pollinate native plants. Some adjustments will undoubtedly be needed in farming practices-- the mega-managed pollination events won't ever be the same-- but mass starvation is not very likely, IMO. Again, the staple crops are all wind pollinated.
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mtnester Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-10 06:36 AM
Response to Reply #118
131. To a degree
A few crops, like corn and wheat, are pollinated by the wind. Bees help pollinate more than 90 commercially grown field crops, citrus and other fruit crops, vegetables and nut crops. Without these insects, crop yields would fall dramatically and some tangerines and pecans would cease to exist. Agronomists estimate Americans owe one in three bites of food to bees.

All of the following are dependant on bees, apples, pears, tangerines, peaches, soybeans, pumpkins, squash, cucumbers, cherries, blueberries, raspberries, blackberries, strawberries, carrots, broccoli and avocados. Almonds.

Bees pollinate alfalfa, which feeds cows, which give milk.

I think dramtic crop decreases would affect the world population. Thinking it would not is just not responsible.
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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-10 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
114. Maybe They Would Have Found This Fungus-Virus Combination Earlier
if there wasn't such a conviction that it HAD to be due to GM crops or pesticides.

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