Capitalism Saved the Miners - WSJ

[Swede]

Of course it did.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703673604575550322091167574.html

[HopeHoops]

1. Capitalism my hairy ass.

The WSJ was once a respected news source. Now it is on par with the "Weekly World News" and "National Inquirer". Hell, the GOP even has the Bat Boy , but they call her Michelle Bachman now.

[maxsolomon]

5. capitalism trapped them in the mine

it creates the need, and then fills it! repeat ad nauseum.

[HopeHoops]

7. Instructions: 1) Bang head against brick wall. 2) Repeat step 1.

[fascisthunter]

2. lol.... weird

[brendan120678]

3. Maybe...but it also put them there in the first place. (nt)

[leftstreet]

4. omg

That was surreal

:rofl:

[lpbk2713]

6. Do they really mean to say it wasn't Chayssuss?

WTF will the fundies think? :rofl:

[Ezlivin]

8. WSJ would have simply poured money down the hole

It's what Republicans do best.

[kenny blankenship]

12. I'm fairly certain the WSJ would simply say "The miners were adults who knew the risks"

"They were each seeking their material advantage in contracting their labor to this mine operator. No one knew better than they did what the conditions were like down there, and what kind of danger they faced. Yet they all chose to remain employed in this mine and to take the pay. It's not like the risk of this work wasn't reflected in that pay. No one forced them to take this risk, so they each entered the mine as sane adults who were presumed to be fully responsible for their own choices. Stopping the whole world just because of one mine cave-in, a regular occurrence throughout the history of mining, and spending whatever it takes to get these men out alive is removing responsibility from them for their freely contracting their labor, and diverts society's resources to an end that is of no demonstrable benefit to the useful aim of ore extraction for industry. Ultimately, such extreme exertions must entail a hit on overall productivity, whoever foots the bill. And in the case that the government ends up writing a check for this, it would also represent a theft of private wealth from individuals, as well as a perverse incentive to mine operators and workers alike to act negligently in the future since they see that Big Brother will always come running to correct your mistakes. Cover up the hole and retrieve the bodies when a new working mine shaft has been completed. To do otherwise simply distorts the proper order of values."

[kenny blankenship]

9. Was making a profit on invested money the motivation for rescue?

Someone is going to have to pay for all that effort, and I doubt strongly they will make any money from having done it, or that any such thoughts lay behind the decision to spare no effort or expense.

Capitalism and its imperatives don't begin to exhaust the range of human motivations that lead to noteworthy deeds, whether for good or ill. Except maybe in some regions of the United States.

[kestrel91316]

10. Shoddy safety conditions in a privately owned mine trapped them.

The government of Chile rescued them.

WSJ blows.

[LTX]

15. Well, technically, it wasn't the government of Chile that rescued them.

Some determined American drillers had more than a little to do with it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9315597

[howaboutme]

35. Who owned the mine?

I would suggest that if it was left solely up to San Esteban - Alejandro Bohn that they might have left the miners to die and not spend money rescuing them and uncovering evidence that would have proven negligence.

Disasters are at their root about production demands, cost cutting and lack of priorities towards safety and it all comes down to risk, dollars spent and dollars saved....i.e the backbone of capitalism.

In America I'm not sure the powers that be would have the goodwill and desire to rescue 33 miners at all expense. Convince me otherwise.

[LTX]

36. Actually, the burden would be on you to convince anyone

that "the powers that be" (whoever the heck that is) in the U.S. would just leave 33 miners to die. And frankly, I find it rather bizarre that you are inventing fantasies about mysterious U.S. "powers that be" committing a mass murder of trapped miners.

http://www.msha.gov/minerescue/rescue.htm


Also, you do realize that mining is not unique to capitalist economies, don't you?

[TexasObserver]

11. Fear of public disdain, investigations, lawsuits and outrage saved them.

Capitalism would have left them where they were, because it would deem them not "worth" the costs of getting them out.

Capitalism would be back to mining the next day.

[LTX]

17. Actually, no. It was compassion, determination, and know-how that saved them.

By some concerned American drillers, of all things.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9315597

[blondeatlast]

20. News flash: you are both right. Relax. nt

[LTX]

21. So Hall and Fisher went to work out of fear of lawsuits,

disdain, investigations, and outrage?

[TexasObserver]

24. You're missing the point entirely.

If Capitalism had been able to have its way, your heroes would never have had a chance to save anyone, because they wouldn't have been able to do so.

Capitalism would have buried them and gotten on with it. FEAR of the things I listed compelled the company to act.

Your need to quibble about the topic is noted, but it doesn't change anything.

[LTX]

26. Frankly, I don't think you actually have a point.

First, "capitalism" doesn't act. "Capitalists" (as in people who participate in a capitalist economy) do.

Your "point" is that fear is the only thing that prevents "capitalists" from acting inhumanely. Hence, the mining company, and Hall and Fisher, being "capitalists" all, were necessarily acting out of fear alone in rescuing the miners, and otherwise had no compassion for them and would actually have preferred them dead. I don't think that's a point. I think that's just misanthropy.

[TexasObserver]

29. My reply is based upon the history of capitalism.

History which you seem not to know.

My comment is accurate. Without fear of repercussions, capitalism unfettered buries the miners and moves on.

If you don't understand that or are emotionally incapable of dealing with it, well, there you are.

[LTX]

31. So your point is a perfectly abstract one,

since "capitalism unfettered" doesn't actually exist in Chile or the US. Or in any of the other countries that contributed to this rather remarkable act of human decency.

And as an aside, history can be stubborn with sweeping generalizations. After all, history suggests that communism unfettered would be the more likely candidate to bury the miners and move on.

[TexasObserver]

32. Get back to me when you're rational.

[LTX]

33. Ok. How about now?

Your original post suggested that fear was the motivating factor in the rescue of the miners. I find that unwarranted. There is no evidence that anything other than human compassion motivated the rescuers.

And the point of the opinion in the WSJ (with whom, I wish to make clear, I am otherwise reflexively inclined to disagree) is simply that the products of a competitive, capitalist economy made that rescue possible. While the popular riposte is that capitalism put the miners in their predicament to begin with, this is a rather facile argument. Mining as an endeavor is by no means unique to capitalist economies. However, innovative drilling and mining tools, and their companion fishing and rescue tools, do tend to be the product of capitalist economies.

Finally, economic -isms are not the cause of humane or inhumane behavior. This is amply demonstrated by the history to which you appeal. The capacity to be inhumane has been demonstrated by populations operating under every conceivable economic system, just as the inverse capacity to be humane has been demonstrated by the same populations. Human nature can be capricious. Here, thankfully, the better side human nature prevailed.

[blondeatlast]

25. Is that what TO said? Or I? Methinks you are looking for offense where

none can be found, bless your heart.

[LTX]

27. Why thank you.

Bless your heart too. It always make me feel so warm and fuzzy when I'm talked down to by someone who uses the word "methinks."

[blondeatlast]

30. Good, then enjoy spinning your own Spanxx! You are trying so very hard, and I do hope you succeed

since you must enjoy it.

[LTX]

34. By the way, that was an excellent rejoinder.

While I have no idea what it means, it did include an exclamation point. Which by the rules, forces me to tip my king.

[Starry Messenger]

13. I saw that yesterday--I thought it was from the Onion.

Profit = Caring! Who knew!

[rug]

14. Yesterday it was science.

[Hannah Bell]

16. lol. right, because the rescuers were all doing it for a profit.

[fishwax]

18. lol -- what a crock

[blondeatlast]

19. Churlish, Danny, DO YA THINK? Must I give props for self-excusation If it

isn't a word, it should be for this cretin)?

:banghead::banghead::banghead:

[Obamanaut]

22. Saving them was a miracle. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. Wsj whatbdid you expect?

But for those who pray at the feet of Adam Smith (and never read the holy of holies)...

[Canuckistanian]

28. Right. All the miners were Commies

And they were down there to.... start a commune or something.

[Spider Jerusalem]

37. Funny, the Economist says different:

Mr Piñera was visiting Ecuador with his mining minister, Laurence Golborne, when the accident happened. He immediately sent Mr Golborne back to Chile and soon followed him to the mine, reportedly against the advice of aides loth to see his image tainted by the accident. Finding the mine’s owners overwhelmed by Chile’s worst mining accident in decades, he ordered his government to take charge and called in experts from Codelco, the big state-owned copper producer.

It was a risky move, but it paid off. Probes by Codelco’s engineers found the miners still alive 17 days after the rockfall. Codelco mobilised contractors and equipment from around the world to drill three separate rescue shafts. Some lay near at hand. The rig that drilled the successful shaft was supplied by a contractor at Collahuasi, a mine controlled by two multinationals, Anglo American and Xstrata.

The government also brought in Chile’s navy, whose submariners have experience working at great depths in confined spaces. The wire rescue capsules were made at the naval shipyard in Talcahuano, in southern Chile, and two navy paramedics were lowered to check the men’s health.

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