Do you think bullying is a problem on DU?

[prolesunited]

[littlewolf]

1. ok I am not going to vote in this

as I am fairly new here ... but I haven't seen any .... however PM's
might tell a different story .....

[RagAss]

2. Hey You...Get Off My Lawn !!!

;)

[seabeyond]

4. lmao... you are such an asssss.

hey the funny, you made me laugh adn was thinking what an ass, in a good natured way, then saw your name and KNEW i could type it. so thanks, for the name, appropriate, in this case anyway

[RagAss]

14. LOL

[AsahinaKimi]

8. HEY!!

Welcome to DU! :D

[Ferret Annica]

34. Welcome; little wolves always have big hearts.

Good to see you here.

[geek tragedy]

3. People fight on politics blogs/websites all the time.

DU is ordinary in that regard.

[phasma ex machina]

191. +1 Politics and religion. The very topics people avoid in polite conversation. nt

[seabeyond]

5. yes.... i see bullying. and is funny after i see the very same people on the threads about bullyin

asking, why? how? could someone do. and they do. me.... bullies dont bother me at all. i see it as an opportunity interact with bully and learn tons....

and no, i dont see me as a bully. lol. isnt that always the way.

[SargeUNN]

105. we agree again

yes there are bullies here and then there are those who can engage in a heated but decent debate. Sadly there are those (I don't count you as one) who you can't engage in debate without them trying to attack a differing view. I have seen it here and like you I am not afraid of bullies but some are not going to engage them because they don't want the crap here on a board. That is why they are getting the upper hand here at times because they know this.

[seabeyond]

118. connect.....

and start again....

regardless of past squirmishes. i agree

peace

[QC]

6. Yes, and thank you for saying it.

Everyone who was ever bullied recognizes the very same dynamic right here at DU.

[prolesunited]

10. I've been noticing it more

Even told not to bother posting. Just a pervading sense of meanness that I don't recall before. If someone was acting like an ass, others would call them on it. Now, it seems like there is cheering going on in the background.

[QC]

12. It's ugly, isn't it? n/t

[Ignis]

20. Agreed. It's NOT "same as it ever was."

Primary nastiness can't hold a candle to the current environment here, and the lack of repercussions for bullying on DU simply perpetuate the cycle.

Thanks for the OP. :yourock:

[prolesunited]

21. Thank you

That feels so much better than being mean to me.

I feel like it is primarily coming from two separate camps that are at war. If you don't subscribe to their particularly orthodoxy, you are the enemy. If just a meanness and submissiveness that doesn't build bridges or understanding. So many responses just have a sense that you don't matter, you have no value, your opinion is not valid.

And like I said, it seems to be coming from two sides -- I won't name names, but if anyone is paying attention, they know what I'm talking about. I'm an equal opportunity alerter.

I received such an education since I've been here on a variety of issues, but it was because people posted rational opinions, links for research, reasonable persuasion. I went from thinking the death penalty was OK in some cases to saying no in all cases and why civil unions weren't equivalent to marriage. I've definitely become more liberal since I've been here.

But these changes in thinking happened long ago. I don't think I would have arrived at the same point given the current climate here. So much, "I'm right, you're wrong, and if you don't agree, you're an idiot."

[Greyhound]

58. They know, or believe, that they are immune from repercussions and have become

brazen in their abuse.

:yourock: indeed.
:kick: & R

[Name removed]

106. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ignis]

171. Yes, that's it in a nutshell.

[tavalon]

77. Actually, primary nastiness is exactly what the atmosphere here reminds me of

and I think it stems from the same place. When we were united against a criminal government with the name Republican, we could overlook our vast differences in this big old tent but during primary season, we used the same ferocity we usually reserved for the Repugs on each other and now that we ostensibly have "our side" in control in Washington, we're finding that those differences aren't so easily overlooked anymore. We thrived with a common enemy and we are drowning without one.

[Hatchling]

85. It began with primary nastiness

and then it never went away. Not addressing the content of a post one doesn't like but "killing the messenger" instead.

I've been here since 2004 and have always been shy about posting but since the primaries I am almost phobic about it, which is why it will probably be another few years before I ever hit the 100 post count.

[tavalon]

115. Ah, but grasshopper, you do not understand a fundamental tenet

You are in the seven hundreds. Get thee to the lounge and this is what you say, "I have 7__ posts, ask me anything!". It's a well known tradition and the lounge people have always been more laid back and willing to play the game. Then when you have a thousand (about three to four hours), come back to GD and just remember, most of these people are actually nice people in the real world but in cyberland, they lose their good manners when someone is wrong on the internet and well, someone is always wrong on the internet, especially someone with less than 1000 posts(technically illegal. When have we been very good at following rules? We're Democrats!). Watch for the really useful posts, they are here among the clamoring crapola, honest.

And besides, people too willing to shoot down your idea with a straw man or just a mean epithet aren't interested in conversation, just scoring points. It takes two so don't answer them. They'll find someone else and who cares if they're wrong on the internet, really. Aren't we all much of the time?

[hamsterjill]

37. I've noticed it, as well.

It's getting worse. And it's getting irritating. There is a complete lack of respect in some cases for differing opinions. I always thought Democrats should be open-minded, but I am seeing less and less of that around here. I hope things shape up.

[muriel_volestrangler]

7. There may be insults and attacks on DU, but that doesn't make them bullying

Bullying is personal, done by people with apparent power in an environment. No, I don't think DU has true bullying (there have been one or two situations where you could call what went on 'bullying'; they resulted in some people being banned. The surprising thing is that the venue for it was The Lounge.)

[JuniperLea]

9. If that were true...

Then anyone who claims they were bullied in the InterTubes is way off base.

I consider constant personal attacks here bullying. Some seem to do it as sport.

[prolesunited]

11. Don't agree with you assessment

Bullies don't have to own the power, just try to seize it. They silence others and intimidate more into not challenging them for fear of becoming a target.

[Curmudgeoness]

22. I agree that some intimidate posters into not challenging them.

I am really saddened when I see some of the attacks that I would call bullying, because they do not debate the issue at hand. Instead, they just make nasty remarks that are meant to demean the poster.

[Radical Activist]

126. That certainly happens.

There are large number of DUers who won't post on certain topics by certain members because they know the swarm of attacks will arrive.

[lumberjack_jeff]

174. The concept of being intimidated into not typing is alien to me.

It's all just keystrokes. The responses either reinforces or encourages me to reevaluate my opinion. After a good laugh, attempted intimidation (:eyes: is my favorite) always does the former.

[tigereye]

188. I just put those people on ignore or take their negative comments with a

grain of salt. I don't think it's bullying per se. I think people give them power by taking their crap seriously and not alerting on it. Why should I be intimidated by people who have no sense or the ability to maintain a rational discussion? Some of this is the price we pay for having an open forum, but I do think that people who are really extreme will end up being banned in the long run.

[petronius]

24. That's generally how I see it too - calling online prickishness 'bullying' seems

to cheapen the term. There are clearly some phenomenal assholes at DU, and a few who even revel in that status, but except in rare circumstances nobody here has the power to do much more than really piss off another poster. Little that happens at DU is in the same league as what goes on in schools, streets, and workplaces...

On edit: I didn't vote in the poll because the option closest to my position - #2 - is unnecessarily snarky. Too much of a push-poll in that respect...

[NashVegas]

80. DU Has Bullying Everytime There's An Election Cycle

[pgodbold]

83. Over in the GLBT forum one of the guys said a goodbye to all of us

because he is staying away until January. He said it was because of the contentious and nasty attitude toward gays during election cycles because of the STFU instructions issued around election time by the “if the gays would just shut up during elections we would win” crowd. I’ve looked for the post but could not locate it .. hopefully some of the others who stop by GLBT can locate it and post it for all to read. I call that bullying.

[spanone]

13. i've met a few real assholes, but only a few in 8 years....pretty good record

i just thought of them as assholes, but i guess they could bullies too....i'd venture that most bullies are assholes

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[independent_voter]

19. WHAT?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7j-F0sgD_Y&feature=related

[quinnox]

16. Its the way its always been

its not that big a deal, the few who are especially nasty seem to get banned eventually if they don't play nice. Meanwhile, that is what the ignore function is for, out of sight out of mind.

[LostInAnomie]

17. Nope

[Bluenorthwest]

18. Anyone can see them rush to certain threads to lash out.

Some of them actually post threads as bait on the same subjects. What Val Jarrett said were bully words as well, the sort the leadership puts forth as a cue to the rank and file bullies, who over the last few days have done very well indeed. Trashing Dan Savage, attacking glbt posters, liberals, calling us criminals and making arch implications of the most vile kind.

[rucky]

23. Lotsa browbeating, some low blows, but only a couple of bona fide bullies.

I have no idea why they're still here.

[Curmudgeoness]

32. Browbeating and low blows is bullying when there is no

constructive reason for it. At least it is on a discussion board. These people can't give us wedgies or trip us in the hall, so they resort to what they can do.

[Name removed]

108. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Iggo]

25. I don't see it.

Doesn't mean it's not happening. Just means I don't see it.

[KG]

26. yes, if you mean nasty responses to posts, etc. that said, those posts are essentially

anonymous pixel on a monitor, and why people lose their shit over that is something i don't understand.

[madokie]

27. Sure it is

go over to the E/E forum and do a little reading about the subject of Nuclear energy and tell me what you think :-)

[Sugarcoated]

28. Absolutely

I've experienced some nastiness here tonight. But the kicker, is when I stood up to it I got accused of bullying. Nice try, but that's a fail.

[CTyankee]

29. Easy to get around, really. I was "bullied" by a little group in a post I had about a neighbor who

didn't recycle. I just gave them humor right back but that seemed to make them mad (I was real happy about THAT!) and they got really obnoxious, so I simply let them "be"....funny how they folded like a cheap umbrella! It was all over after that...
bye, bye...no guts, no glory...

:nopity:

[DainBramaged]

50. With all of the pain and suffering in the world, you chose to be worried

about the appearances of your neighbor. That thread wasn't bullying, it was tying to get you to see just how absurd your premise was, but it looks like you STILL haven't figured it out.


God protects the drunks and little children, and more often than not, the ignorant.

[CTyankee]

82. wow, dain, still so sensitive, aren't you?

c'mon lighten up, dain...

otoh, go ahead, it's fun to watch you squirm...

oops, almost forgot your :nopity:

[DainBramaged]

101. Pathetic, truly pathetic

you claimed you were putting me on ignore, you also sent me a PM stating if I replied to your posts you'd report me for stalking.


Who's the bully now?

[prolesunited]

127. I would say both of you

[CTyankee]

199. I get what you are saying...it's kind of sad when a thread gets turned into something

vicious. I used humor and, I admit, my sarcasm is sometimes prickly (just ask my husband!). Finally, I decided that if I left the thread the whole thing would wither. I did and it did!

Happy footnote: I took the advice of one of the posters who were actually interested in the topic. By coincidence, my neighbor and I were taking out the trash at the same time...he mentioned that the bins were awfully big and I told him about the new program being tested in our neighborhood and we didn't have to separate the recycles anymore. He thought it was a great idea and sure enough the issue was resolved. He's as happy with the new recycling program as I am!

[DainBramaged]

201. Awwww aren't you special, you got your neighbor to knuckle under

What's next, the lawns aren't manicured to your satisfaction? The dogs are pooping on YOUR side of the street.


No wonder the Rethugs call us latte Liberals, you are a SHINING example.

[CTyankee]

206. you're in a hole, dain. Stop digging...

[CTyankee]

151. I did nothing of a sort . Either you are confusing me with someone else or

you are pretending something exists that does not.

Please do not do this. It is not a worthy path to take.

[DainBramaged]

156. It is not a worthy path to take. Is that a threat?

Put me on ignore like you said you had months ago and I will do the same. Your indignation over this amazes me. I guess I'll have to post your message, since I am blocked since I received it, from replying to you.

[CTyankee]

158. I have not one single person on Ignore. I have never used it.

And I'm sorry you could not understand my statement about not taking worthy paths. I think most people here do.

[DainBramaged]

159. This was a classic thread, and a classic example of noseyneighborism

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8997068&mesg_id=8997068


Goodbye, you are so full of it and not worthy of a single second more of my time.

[Cleita]

60. Yes, making fun of them really does make them mad. n/t

[CTyankee]

87. I'm too old to get worked up anyway, even if I wanted to, which I don't!

I don't think they're prepared for someone to return their vitriol with humor...:evilgrin:

[robdogbucky]

111. And Cleita

don't forget how the bullies are the first to pee their pants and alert you when you best them, and they run to mommy to delete your post. I have had that happen several times. You get in a good response to their snark and it stings them, and you come back 10 minutes later and your post is gone, but the CCC member is slashing away.


Ooooops. I should be hearing from the enablers about this post. It will most likely be deleted. IBTL

[GoneOffShore]

30. Nope.

There's some serious stupid sometimes but this a discussion forum for grownups.

In fact, this place is a picnic.

If certain people on this board posted some of the same nonsense they post here over at Science Blogs they'd be running back here like scalded cats.

[darkstar3]

31. "Anonymous bully" is an oxymoron.

[Le Taz Hot]

90. Never been cyber stalked, I see. N/t

[darkstar3]

102. "Stalking" of any form requires a certain lack of anonymity,

which you do not normally find on this board.

I've seen every kind of bullying you can think of, and none of it was anonymous, for the simple fact that bullies can't fully exercise their power when they don't know who you are.

[Le Taz Hot]

197. This was not on DU but it if they ,

actually find out who you are IRL, it becomes very real and before you accuse, no, I did NOT provide him with the information. I never even talked to him except in a chat room and even then, he creeped me out and I blocked him. I ended up having to file a police report. The point is anonymity is a fallacy when it comes to the inter tubes.

[darkstar3]

200. Two problems:

One, this discussion was about bullying on DU, and you have just admitted that your personal example didn't happen here.

Two, anonymity on the internet is incredibly easy to come by if you are simply careful about the information that you share. The sad fact is that, having worked in computer security, I know that people don't take that care.

(Tin foil hatters:Yes I'm fully aware of site administrator power, but we're talking about members vs. members here in information discovery.)

[apocalypsehow]

142. How does someone "stalk" the moniker "Le Taz Hot"? Or "apocalypsehow" for that matter?

:shrug:

What you define as "stalking" the real world defines as "debating" - just because you consistently lose your debates here at DU doesn't mean your anonymous moniker is being "stalked." It means you need to get better arguments. :thumbsup:

[Le Taz Hot]

196. I've no idea what you're referring to when you say

"you constantly lose your debates here." Perhaps you can give an example. Just like anyone else, sometimes I'm wrong. I have both the ability to recognize and honor to admit when I'm wrong and have demonstrated numerous times here on DU just that. Finally, I've no idea what your history is as I've no idea who you are but rest assured I appreciate all my fans, no matter how anonymous. Autograph line forms in the back.

Peace.
LTH

[apocalypsehow]

204. I don't mean "you" specifically - I meant the generic "you" that takes the affirmative position as

relates to the proposition that "bullying" is some kind of problem at DU, an anonymous message board.

But, then, you knew that. Nice try.

[SidDithers]

134. Exactly...nt

Sid

[lumberjack_jeff]

153. +1 n/t

[BurtWorm]

33. I don't see it here. I see more people claiming it's going on.

Can someone give an example of bullying on DU without naming names?

[snooper2]

35. Oh Jesus H. Christ...

I can't wait for the day that some people figure out THIS IS JUST A MESSAGE BOARD

:banghead:

[KansasVoter]

36. Wow, people whine a lot.

[MrSlayer]

38. I've never seen anyone bullied.

Of course I've only been here for 7 years.

[prolesunited]

40. Well, 120 people seem to disagree so far

[MrSlayer]

43. Yes, I see that.

I wonder what I'm missing.

[donheld]

48. I've seen it many many times.

[BurtWorm]

103. Can you give an example (without calling people out)?

[cliffordu]

68. Yeah, you newbeys miss everything.....

:rofl:


:hi:

[WingDinger]

39. There is almost NO debate left. Any back and forth gets locked.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

41. The only locked thread on the first 3 pages of GD:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9318958

[pgodbold]

42. Well, I've been here about 3 months and I already have 14 people on ignore.

Yeah it's a little snippy here. I'm curious if others have that many on ignore?

[Sugarcoated]

55. I had a couple from way back in the day

but tonight it went up by a couple more.

[Jamastiene]

198. My ignore list needs a drum roll when I load it.

14 people on your Ignore List here is not really that many.

[ecstatic]

44. Yes, pile ons are a form of bullying

Where a comment is twisted or taken out of context and then 3 or 4 other people from the clique join in on the attacks with the hope of getting the person banned.

[laughingliberal]

59. +1000 nt

[Catherina]

93. It's pathetic how clever they think they are. n/t

[DeschutesRiver]

113. I had seen that happen, then had it happen to me

it was a form of bullying, unsuccessful in that once I realized that the "pilers" were only interested in promoting their incorrect rehash of what I said as what I must have actually meant in their minds (and even in the face of being able to debate it with me, the source), I simply used the ignore button.

But to note how serious this form of bullying is here, this was the first time I had put anyone on ignore in all my decades on the internet. And I go to some rough places, but it was DU that made me reconsider my position on the usefulness of ignore for the first time in my life. Anyone who remained intent on bullying rather than even fierce and heated discourse was on my ignore list, and it was quite a few. I don't see many "ignored" posts as I read daily since then, so most apparently weren't interested in anything other than acting out via bullying.

It was simply easier than allowing the inappropriate behavior to continue unfettered by reason or logic. There was a small minded clique aspect that I'd previously only found present in more republican settings, plus an absence of critical thinking skills and just a mean spirited desire to attack. But I expect that kind of crap from morons who don't think progressively - on a board like this, I do expect more. And will tolerate far less.

[HughBeaumont]

165. They did it to me on one particularly long thread.

Friends became enemies. Sad. It's almost as if they use certain subjects to fish people out.

Sorry, but let it be known I refuse to be a doormat.

[demmiblue]

45. Yes...it is the main reason why I don't view GDP. n/t

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Catherina]

95. Oh I see. No criticism of what GDP has become is permitted. Ok, I'll try again

GDP is just the bestest, nicest, most tolerant beacon-of-love forum at DU. Let's just keep pretending and avoiding any discussion of the problems here.

Bestest forum evaaah!

[QC]

209. GDP makes me feel all funny down there!

It's that special!

[nashville_brook]

47. without a doubt. harassment, stalking, threats of offline mayhem...it's all there.

[Renew Deal]

49. Offline mayhem?

:wtf:


:rofl:

[Warren DeMontague]

64. If someone threatens someone else with "offline mayhem", they should be banned.

If this is actually, really, truly happening, you ought to report it.

I was once promised an offline brou-ha-ha with some offline shenanegans and even offline hijinks, but it turned out to be more of the regular online rigamarole.

[Upton]

51. I can quite honestly say I've never seen any bullying

maybe I don't know what to look for, or perhaps people are being a bit too sensitive..

[JackBeck]

52. Yes. And it's quite amusing that some of the people posting in this thread

are acting completely outraged and indignant when they are far from innocent when it comes to inflecting abuse on others, both here on DU and on so-called 'satirical' websites.

[WonderGrunion]

53. Could the 142 of you that voted for the last answer please identify yourselves.

I'll be coming around to collect your lunch money. :evilgrin:

[applegrove]

54. People who get a little too aggresive with me end up on ignore. I don't have the time in my life

right now to put up with aggression by anyone.

[Sugarcoated]

57. I'm with you

I don't come here to do the DU fight and bicker. I do stand up to the bullies sometimes.

[GoCubsGo]

131. Me, too.

I have only had to put one person on "ignore" for being an asshole. It was last week. That person was being a dick to most people on the thread, because they didn't agree with him/her. I'm not sure I'd call it "bullying", however. Some people are just really intolerant of other opinions, apparently.

[applegrove]

177. I have two people on ignore right now.

[Greyhound]

56. Do you think the administration will notice these results?

:kick: & R

[Catherina]

96. Notice yes. Take action until it affects to bottom line? Not so sure. n/t

[robdogbucky]

110. No n/t

[tigereye]

189. do you really think that they don't think about this stuff? DId you miss the

survey? And there is no mod conspiracy.... trust me, I was a mod for a long time, even through the dreaded Presidential primaries. Mods operate by consensus. Alleged "rogue mods" (if in fact there are any) have no power, since everything is done by consensus. :shrug:


Skinner runs a cool website- I don't know how he does it, and it amazes me how much people complain about what is really an amazing effort, considering how large this site is.

[Greyhound]

205. Did you notice the poll results?

One the one hand a literal overwhelming majority says "yes, there is a problem and it's getting worse", and you reply with "no there isn't, because it can't be, because the 'consensus' of hand-picked Mods makes it impossible".
:eyes:

Do you also believe that invading Iraq was absolutely the right thing to do because _Shrub had a consensus of advisors telling him it was?

[tigereye]

207. I beg your pardon? That isn't what I said.

This is a message board- and a pretty well run one at that. The mods are fair, consistent and try really hard to let people have their say, as does Skinner. There are no "rogue mods with excessive power." Which is what you basically said, several times.

This isn't high school. If people are rude and obnoxious put em on ignore or turn off the computer- it's not like we are teens sitting at a lunch table. I've been here 7 years and if people are rude, I put em on ignore or alert on em. I've never felt that it was bullying.

:shrug:


The analysis in your last sentence is kind of a big leap and hyperbolic. Your statement actually supports the idea that the "majority" isn't always correct.

[TriMera]

61. I've seen bullying and I've seen baiting.

Ever watch one of those nature programs where a pack of wolves surround a prey animal. That's how it's been around here lately.

[Warren DeMontague]

62. Someone being an asshole anonymously on the internet to another anonymous person doesn't fit my

definition of "bullying".



What IS bullying?

Back in the early 1970s, In grade school, at about age 7 or so, on the school bus, I was asked "what religion are you", the two acceptable answers in my town being 'Christian' or 'Jewish'. I said "Atheist", and after explaining what that meant, when I got off the bus I got my ass thoroughly kicked by 3 or 4 boys a couple years older.

The gist of the message they wished to impart to me was, "you're not allowed to not believe in God".


THAT was bullying.

Someone disagreeing with you on DU? Someone being a dick to you on DU? Sorry, that may be many things, it may be rude, it may be inconsiderate, it may even be a rule violation-- but that's not "bullying". Not in my book.

[hfojvt]

71. what if words can inflict pain too?

Is the target just too sensitive?

What if the target becomes afraid to post? Isn't a certain amunt of electronic stalking possible? Almost every time I post, this old-timer replies and calls me a knee-biter. What is up with that? Is he just bored or something? Maybe mad at the universe and taking it out on me?

Plus, we are not totally anonymous. We share our thoughts, our memories and sometimes our pains and joys. Certain hurtful episodes can be brought up or hinted at, the "window of joy" was reported to be such a posting, and at one time it was forbidden to mention chickens in the lounge for a similar reason.

People develop friendships here, or think they do, and then there can be seeming betrayal and bad feelings and hurtful activities by groups of people. I think that off-line bullies often use the same methods of words and gossip as means of torment.

Some people even go so far as to unrec.

[Warren DeMontague]

74. "Some people even go so far as to unrec." - Damn. You had me going, there.

Bravissimo, sir. Well played.

[apocalypsehow]

136. LOL!

:rofl:

Satire at its finest! I envy your wit, and salute you as the poster of the day. :thumbsup:

[SidDithers]

135. Well said...

bullying, to me, is prolonged, targeted abuse. Bullying is not disagreement.

When we've got complete and total control over who we interact with here, there's no excuse to be a victim of bullying. If you don't ignore the person you feel is bullying you, then it's your own fault that you're being bullied.

And I'll say it again. Confrontations that continue to other websites, or into real life are a completely different matter.

Sid

[DonCoquixote]

63. Hell Yes

And sorry to say, it comes from ALL sides, from the Blue Dogs to the Marxists, from the Jesus freaks to the Atheists.

[orleans]

65. i can't vote -- you left out the

"i don't know :shrug:" option

[saracat]

66. +1 million!

[political_Dem]

67. Yes. In some places it is like a regular Reign of Terror, complete with condemning crowd.

On some threads, all you need is a Madame Defarge knitting names into her latest piece of work to make the gluttony of bullying and fervent condemnation complete. It sickens me how such behaviors ruin a civil discussion exploring all sides of an issue.

Even worse, if you don't agree, a loud, vocal angry mob forms to beat one into submission. The loud angry mob makes it virtually impossible to express alternative theories and points of view. It also shows an irony that the prejudices of a certain mob will be expressed and ignored as they howl their disapproval about a particular person or theme. The unwillingness to change or compromise is also apparent as well. It can be downright obnoxious.

This type of strong-arming behavior is not only disgusting, but tiring and grating on the nerves.

Civility has flown out the window while an tribunal system has been set up instead. That's not discussing a free flow of ideas; instead, it is a forced exposure to a particular form of dogma or belief.

[DainBramaged]

73. Getting threads they disagree with locked has become a contest

along with compliant friends who hold grudges.

[blue_onyx]

107. I agree

I've noticed people who bully those who disagree with them too. Oddly, the 2 posters most guilty of this are 2 of the more "respected" members.

[neverforget]

211. You got that right!

[apocalypsehow]

69. LOL - the 2008 primaries never end. n/t.

[Warren DeMontague]

75. You're wrong.

It's the 2004 primaries that never ended!

[apocalypsehow]

143. Touche!

I wasn't here then, but from what I've heard from other DU'ers who were, the 2004 primaries were every bit as nasty as anything that happened in 2008 was - if not worse.

[woo me with science]

70. Oh for pete's sake. nt

[Warren DeMontague]

76. I say, it was absolutely atrocious the way legitimate concerns about the moon bombing were handled.

Anyone -anyone!- who tried to bring up the fact that an emergency psychokinetic response team used a well placed visualization action to divert the Nasa Brute Assault On the Moon Goddess; and in the process, saved our space brothers at the Star Folks lunar colony--- was... was... was... mercilessly ridiculed! :cry:

Now I ask you, is that fair?

[woo me with science]

129. Bwah!

:rofl:

[NeedleCast]

164. That was such a fun thread

I miss those threads a lot.

[beam me up scottie]

180. You are immortal now.

How does it feel?

[beam me up scottie]

181. That. Was. Epic.

I'm on damn dial up now, I can't even dredge it up and reminisce. :(

[name not needed]

72. Compared to most other forums, DU is pretty damn civil.

[lunatica]

78. Bullying is a problem here like it is everywhere

You either stand up to them or you leave them alone. I've done both at one time or other.

[HopeHoops]

79. HELL NO! And if you mention it again, I'll rip your fucking LUNGS out!

:evilgrin: :hi:

Sorry, I just couldn't resist - that was almost too obvious. Getting serious now, I thought bullying was bad in general when I was a kid, but it is far worse now and pretty much everywhere. When teenagers are killing themselves because of being bullied, something is very wrong with society. I usually just went home and cried for a while.

As for DU, that's a tough call. I think the moderators do a good job of filtering out posts of that nature and, when warranted, filtering out the individuals making such posts. I'm not sure it qualifies for "bullying", but some of the hotly contested and *really important* matters like who should be on "Dancing With the Stars" do seem to get rather personal.

I trust you took the subject line in the ironic manner in which it was intended. :grouphug:

[stuntcat]

81. honestly, DU made me disappointed in Democrats.

I guess I was living in a bubble thinking everyone who voted D must be a nice, thoughtful, pleasant person.

I'm amazed at how I see people treat each other here, it's just sad.

[Stinky The Clown]

84. I don't know about bullying, but there is definitely a "gang" mentality

Some gang members even wear colors that have no bearing on politics, but every bearing on gang members and former gang members.

[tigereye]

190. yeah, sometimes there are feuds about stuff that has nothing to do with

politics, which is pretty odd, considering that this is 1. a left-leaning Democratic website, and 2. just a website.

[sufrommich]

86. I have to assume that the DUers who think bullying on DU

is prevalent do not frequent other political discussion forums.Seriously, anonymous forums have a tendency to be much different than real life conversations. It's not bullying, it's the internet.There is a reason people come to forums to talk politics and it's because they can say things anonymously that they would not put quite so bluntly in the real world.

[bigwillq]

88. No

There's hostility, sure, and some comments that are offensive, but no more then at other sites of this nature.
I think a lot of folks here really need to lighten up. It's only a message board. When you start taking it too seriously, that's a problem.

[Le Taz Hot]

89. A form of bullying that is never discussed

is the behind-the-scenes collusion which is an indirect form of bullying. Iow, DUers banding together, labeling other DUers fill-in-the-blank and deciding what the consequences will be: collectively putting them on ignore or not responding to any post, even though there are direct questions being asked, regularly going after them in post after post, applying "unrec" without even reading content, just stuff like that. The reason I know this goes on is that I've been contacted myself by these little, pardon me, chickenshits who, for whatever reason, thought I wanted to join in on their cowardly endeavors (they soon found out differently).

Here's another one (and yes, this has happened to me), PMing someone with a "Fuck you, you racist pig!" and then cutting off their ability respond. If you have a difference of opinion with someone, fine, but bring it out in the open. Anything else is the action of chickenshit cowards.

[WolverineDG]

145. that's happened to you too, huh?

Personally, I think if someone sends you a nuclear PM they should be prevented from blocking a return PM from you. If they're brave enough to send it out, they're brave enough to handle the reply. If not, they're just chickenshit bullies.


dg

[HuckleB]

155. Absolutely. -eom-

[NYC Liberal]

91. Bullying? Um, if you feel bullied...close the browser window.

Done. "Bullying" ended.

You cannot do that with real bullying. You can't just click a button and make a real-life bully go away. (If only it were that easy.)

Online bullying DOES exist, but for the most part it happens when bullies take their in-person harassment online. The bullied knows their tormenters in real life. That's when online bullying is a real problem. On an anonymous internet message board? Get over it. Seriously.

[SidDithers]

140. Well said...

:applause:

Sid

[Stevenmarc]

175. Exactly

Even better, they should step away from the computer and regain some perspective in their lives. I think some people have to come to the realization that clicking a button on a screen doesn't make someone your friend nor does a little terse commentary flickering in front of your face constitute bullying.

[woo me with science]

178. Sometimes Captain Obvious is sorely needed around here.

Good post.

[beam me up scottie]

183. They act like they're that poor kid who has to get on the bus every fucking day,

knowing he's going to get the shit beat out of him by the end of the day. Or the teenage girl who's shunned by the others and relentlessly cyber-bullied.

Get some perspective, people.

[bikebloke]

92. Of course not.

Now give me your lunch money...or else.

;)

[Regret My New Name]

94. GIVE ME YOUR LUNCH MONEY OR ELSE!

[lumberjack_jeff]

154. Keep it up, and I'll unrec you again!

What'cha gonna do? Cry?

[Regret My New Name]

202. I'm telling on you to skinner.

or probably more accurate wording "I'm telling skinner on you"

[kgnu_fan]

97. Yes and I can name names

[butterfly77]

192. Please do ..

so that I can match them up with my list..

[Donald Ian Rankin]

98. People are always horrible to one another on the internet. I'm not sure "bullying" is the right word

Because bullying implies some level of power over someone, which the "ignore" function makes impossible.

[DainBramaged]

99. You bet, and they won't comment in this thread either......

Being recognized in a crowd is not in their best interests.....

[robdogbucky]

114. Yo, you hit a nerve there

I noticed the same thing. Odd isn't it?

[Name removed]

144. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Renew Deal]

100. Maybe

I think there are people that are afraid of posting their true controversial (for DU) feelings. I don't think it has to do with fear of banning.

[Pathwalker]

104. Yes. Just check out threads where certain posters are relentlessly attacked.

As if being a total asshole by spamming threads lends them credibility. IMO, it doesn't.

[astral]

109. If you don't march lock-step with the 'majority' opinion on an issue

you are pecked to death by the peckers around you.

It's kinda weird. And you know, people should want to debate an issue civilly, or just get out of the thread if they don't want to, but no, they have to attack on a personal level instead.

I would never put anyone on ignore, but I haven't been trolled or tormented by anyone on this forum, so maybe I would change my mind if that were to happen.

I think on the one hand the policing here make things better than they would be, but things go overboard when any kind of "hot topic" gets locked even when people are not getting nasty with each other about it.

But I suppose if I didn't think it was good here I wouldn't keep coming back, would I?

[JackRiddler]

112. I think majority/minority has nothing to do with it.

Certain issues set off predictable no-content bullying responses, mean invective, name-calling and stalking from certain gangs:

a) anything that can be labeled "conspiracy theory," even if that's not a relevant category.

b) anything that can be read as critical of Obama or Democrats, even if fully justified, in fact often when it's not particularly critical of them.

c) anything to do with Venezuela or Cuba, where the cries of dictatorship, communism and "idol worship" are usually immediate if one does not support US pressure on these countries.

d) Code Pink, Ralph Nader, male foreskin removal.

There are others.

[robdogbucky]

116. And Jack Riddler hits it out of the park,

Don't forget to add:

e)Most female left journalists and/or bloggers, specially if they have been critical of the administration.

f)Any criticism of certain administration officials, some that may have recently moved back to Chicago.

g)Anyone that expected a pony like constitutional rights restored for all citizens, (or granted in the first place)and you betcha don't bring up constitutional rights for those not born here, nor those born here but not the right color, etc.




That's just off the top of my head

[JackRiddler]

121. Right, the "pony brigade"

Basically, anything you criticized under Bush (which was okay) that you now criticize under Obama, including the outrageous attack on the Constitution, will get you the bullying.

[earth mom]

117. Yes it is. Yesterday I got stalked & hassled in a couple of threads, one of which was my own OP.

:crazy:

[TonyMontana]

119. Nobody is forcing you to be here

Nor to read people's posts with whom you have a problem.

So no.

[prolesunited]

122. True

But I don't know why we can't encourage kindness and civility.

Your tone is more of "I'm going to be an ass. Screw off if you don't like it."

And I've been on DU since nearly the beginning. I'm not going to let this kind of tone run me off. Rather, I'm going to take a stand.

[DainBramaged]

125. Really?

[HuckleB]

169. Many consider this a community.

No one forces you to be a part of any particular community. Are you saying bullying never happens anywhere, in any community?

[QC]

212. This used to be a community.

Now, not so much.

[Name removed]

120. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[prolesunited]

123. I'm not in either camp

I see it on both sides. I am an equal opportunity alerter.

I guess if you feel you are being attacked, being ugly in return seems to be justified. Frankly, I'm sick of the us vs. them mentality and think there should be a civil tone on all sides of a discussion.

[apocalypsehow]

137. I'm putting in for a raise from 20 cents a reply to thirty - and a solid dollar per OP.

:eyes:

[lumberjack_jeff]

124. I think this minimizes what "bullying" really is.

I'm not afraid that a DU'er is going to beat me up.

So people disagree with me. So what?

[Name removed]

146. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lumberjack_jeff]

148. So you're suggesting that the handful of posters who believe that bullying doesn't exist

... are wielding oppressive power over the majority? :crazy:

Hey, as a Hillary supporter, I keenly remember groupthink. I remember every single day reading yet another post admonishing Skinner to purge the infidels.

... but even that isn't bullying. Even when it is a *real* majority doing the Lord of the Flies thing.

Except for people like those on 4chan who stalk people in real life, I have a hard time thinking bullying has anything to do with internet discussion groups - if for no other reason than we're all free to leave.

A minority of posters who disagree with the majority doesn't constitute bullying.

[robdogbucky]

150. Nope, that's not exactly what I said

"A subtle form of bullying occurs here in the form of groupthink. Especially that form of groupthink that always aligns with the DLC groupthink, no matter what the issue or the obvious disconnect to reality the position demonstrates.

Best exemplified by the pack (always seems to be the same 3 or 4 reporting to duty) that derails.

The other form that is favored is to post a flame-bait thread, with the same group chiming in, creating a false majority.

Count on it.

But look at the numbers on this poll and the position the Clown Car Contingent is without a doubt, taking.

Hmmmmm?

Am I right?"


I named DLC groupthink. That is a behavior, not a set, finite number of individuals. Getting lost in the forest through the trees is not helping anything. It is not hard to spot a pattern when it is so often repeated. Whether or not that is a small number I do not know, but it is not as relative as to its manipulative perceptual effect. How many of the DLC groupthink are mods I do not know. I do know and recognize tactics.

That anonymous "manufacturing consent," or appearance of it through gang posting is what I addressed. The numbers as you chose to couch them no doubt to defang my observation, do not matter, the aggression and tactics do matter. Whether or not you supported Hilary is not relevant and I don't care whom you supported. What is being described here is a subtle form of bullying, not the constricted definition of "bullying," apparently strawmanned here and stereotypically referring to playground bullying.

Maybe bullying was the wrong descriptive word. Innuendo is a form of tort under certain laws, like sexual harassment. Is it another of those gray areas where the definition of "harassment," is sometimes up for grabs? Not under the law it isn't. Get this, if an object of sexual innuendo is offended, it does not matter under the law whether or not the giver of that sexual innuendo intended to inflict it as harassment. Only the perception of the person offended does. That is the current workplace law as it is applied. It does not matter what your definition of harassment is, if the object of perceived harassment perceived it that way, then it is harassment. That is the current training done to educate all employees in the workplace, so everyone is on the same page. Interesting, no?

It is like that tenet of black letter law, that you take your plaintiff as you find them. In other words, the intent of the purpetrator does not matter, it is the condition of the injured party that matters. If a seemingly innocuous teasing or hazing or harassment was not intended to do the harm it did, it does not matter, it did the harm. One could be dealing with an eggshell plaintiff, or unusually vulnerable to something.

Way off the topic there, but I list it to point out how getting lost in semantics and losing site of the issue is not productive.

Look at the poll numbers herein above. I don't think I'm the one mis-perceiving the situation here. Did the original post say "bullying," in and attempt to describe harassment or innuendo? Maybe that is closer to the truth. No matter how you couch it, the majority of respondents here feel that there is bullying. Whether it is done by tough guys to other tough guys, or whether it is a minoirity of posters that don't agree with the majority, it doesn't matter.

After years of dealing with juries, I tend to trust the perceptions evoked by the vox populi.

And DU? Like flies to flypaper




Just my dos centavos


robdogbucky

[lumberjack_jeff]

152. Vox populi.

"Bullied? Hell yeah! Those DLC assholes (we know who they are even if they themselves deny it) should be burned at the stake for being such bullies! Yeah, string 'em both up!!!"

As political forums go, DU is about as civil as it gets.

Factionalism, "ganging up", groupthink, teambuilding via the dog-whistle (e.g. "DLC'er", "MRA" or "antivaxxer")? I'll buy that.

Bullying? No. "A subtle form of" trivializes bullying in the same way that "a subtle form of rape" shouldn't be used to describe leering or catcalling.

[robdogbucky]

161. Semantics, definitions, other sites

are not what the original poster was positing. Nor was it what I was positing. Have it your way, I guess you win. What exactly you are trying to win is.........

Let me just point out again, that, nonetheless, the numbers at the top do not lie.

How many DUers think that there has always been bullying and that it is getting worse = 252

How many DUers think that there is none? = 55

The point is that the majority 5-1, feel that there is. What the cause is, what to do about it, whether it is worse here or elsewhere, was not at play, but obviously everyone has an opinion and the topic runs far astray of the original point.

Imagine that!

My two points to the fraction of this discussion that went that way to whom and what and how and why, were that this "phenomena," happened in an apparently quasi-organized manner when the DLC came to power. The other point that I was trying to make was that it is sad to see what has happened to DU when such topic de-railers and insulters, and groupthinkers ruin discussions and how that mysteriously is allowed to happen more often than it ever used to. Just check it out, that seems to happen much more than it did, say 3 years ago. I must say that they are making a muck of things and it sometimes smacks of some end-timers deliberate lemmings over the cliff type of loyalty to a particular point.

In other news, I agree that DU is not like a lot of places, but it is fast racing to the bottom. At least there is some lip service paid to keeping civil and sometimes action is taken. Other times, the unrec and alert features are used to stymie discussion or to de-emphasize a viewpoint. I do not know if surveys are the way to correct what needs to be. Maybe we will one day see such survey results and be allowed to discuss them further. This here poll could be a data point in that discussion, no?



Carry on, regardless


rdb

[lumberjack_jeff]

172. My main point was that this trivializes bullying.

My secondary point is that 252 people think there's a lot of bullying on the site and you are suggesting that 55 tombstones would represent a surgical strike on the clown car in which the bullies, disruptors and insulters make their tactical plans.

... which calls into question who the bullies are.

Rodney King was right.

[JackRiddler]

128. About half of the problems are caused by first replies.

It's like a contest to go in first and derail. How many threads have you seen that have one long diagonal derail fest right off the first reply, followed by a few K&Rs and then obscurity?

The surest tip-off is all the posts that reply to a title, often not bothering to read the OP itself.

[LeftishBrit]

130. I haven't seen it often, but I may not have gone on the relevant threads.

Just being rude to someone is unpleasant, but it's not what I call bullying.

What I call bullying in an internet context is bringing up a poster's *personal* life to attack them; or actually intruding into their off-line life, by stalking, harrassing or 'outing' them, or threatening to do so.

I have never been bullied on DU, though occasionally (not very often) people have been rude to me, which is very different. On the other hand, I once experienced bullying on another board: someone decided that they did not like or trust me, and not only 'TS'd me as we'd say here, but used their knowledge of my real name that they'd gained as an admin to find out where I worked, phone me at work, and even ridicule me using my real name and work affiliation on another internet board. That is the sort of thing that I'd consider as bullying.

[Dash87]

132. This site is tame compared to the rest of the internet.

Which is why I like it so much. I voted 'no.'

♥

[SidDithers]

133. No...

you can't be bullied if you have complete and total control of what you see at DU. If a poster or posters continue DU arguments outside of DU, then the case could be made that there is bullying.

But how can you be bullied when, with one click of the mouse, you never have to see or hear from your "bully" again?

Crying about bullying on an anonymous internet message board is an insult to the people who are bullied in real life, and have no way to escape that bullying, often with tragic consequences.

Sid

[Whisp]

138. the word bullying is overused here

and diminishes what bullying in real life does to people - sometimes killing them in their helpless and hopeless feelings. Maybe its because the word has been used in the media a lot lately that it gets transferred here without the real definition being used properly. that happens.

bullying is a very very serious matter and using that word for a discussion forum is silly. Being bullied is feeling threatened, and feeling fear - not saying that that kind of stuff doesn't happen on the net - people do get serious stalkers and dangerous situations but of all the hotheaded and over the top stuff that happens here...

I have never once had an iota of a feeling of fear or intimidation from some jackass behind a keyboard in Pookipsie or whatever.

[NeedleCast]

139. No

And it's very simple to stop...if you think you're a victim of cyber-bullying, just put said poster on ignore. Problem solved! Now you too can go out into the schoolyar...I mean interwebs and feel safe and secure.

[izzybeans]

141. Recently I saw what seemed like a baiting thread have

a poster claim in a long subthread "read what WE posted in the OP" as if it were a trump card.

I wonder what that meant. Who was We? ...because that poster was not the OP.

I don't think bullying is the right word...but it certainly seemed orchestrated. It only feels widespread when it happens to you.

personally I've only felt ganged up on once or twice here. Once recently, once a very long time ago. Both around election time.

[robdogbucky]

147. Bingo, izzybeans n/t

[kgnu_fan]

149. yes, I can now see the orchestration very clearly. Just pay attention

They are coordinated. They want our discussions go in a certain way, basically to close our eyes on the on-going war and they want us to forget the fact that perpetual wars are eating away the tax base and democracy of our country.

[TBF]

160. And only the owners benefit -

and by "owners" I don't mean those of us who might own a house or car. I mean ownership of vast wealth, sometimes new (dot coms, investment banking are 2 sources of this) - but often very old money. Families like the Bush's who have been championing (and profiting off of) the military industrial complex for decades.

'Orchestrated' is exactly the right word.

[HuckleB]

163. More and more stuff seems orchestrated, which mean cliques, which means bullying.

[CreekDog]

157. only if getting called a PUMA for criticizing Obama is bullying

except when they call someone who voted and supported Obama on DU during the primaries. in that case it's not bullying --it's lying.

[Name removed]

162. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HughBeaumont]

166. I dunno, but certain "sensibles" seem bulletproof in their flamethrowing.

They get put in the RedX Sewer along with Laissez-fail Free Traitors.

[woo me with science]

167. Large message boards can be very distressing

to those who are incapable of ignoring posts or redirecting their attention without the help of an authority figure.

[robdogbucky]

168. Or those that want to

have a serious discussion without someone demanding you do their research for them, without ad hominem attacks, without straw men response/non-responses, without insults, without interruptions, without thread-jacking, without ganging-up............


rdb

[dbt]

173. +42!

The sidetrackers/derailers seem to enjoy a certain status at certain websites. Just sayin'

:evilgrin:

[woo me with science]

176. How terribly exhausting it must be

to be unable to filter what you choose to read and respond to on this board with thousands of participants. I can't even imagine how distressing it would be to have to do research when someone else demands it. To live your life as a puppet on a string, knowing that you can be assaulted and derailed at any moment by an unresponsive post.

No wonder you seek protection.

I am sorry. I didn't understand the depth and breadth of the helplessness. Please accept my apologies, and my sincere hopes for a better tomorrow through science. O8)

[beam me up scottie]

184. And the unrecs!

HOW COULD YOU FORGET THE UNRECS???!? :cry:

You science worshipers are so cold.

[woo me with science]

194. Honestly, I don't think about them.

I'm pretty sure it was so traumatic I repressed the experience.

[beam me up scottie]

187. I'm on dial-up now, do you have any idea how long I have to wait to be bullied?

Sometimes I even I time out and have to get off the internet entirely. Nothing to do but go outside walking around on this big beautiful farm or maybe kayaking on the river that runs through it. And the time I now have to devote to photography - terrible, just terrible!

Next year we'll have horses, I may have to resort to riding the miles and miles of trails that cross the entire state.

sigh...



:hi:

[woo me with science]

193. I never thought of that.

It never occurred to me, the sheer dedication it must take to maintain victimhood on dial-up.

I honor your perseverance. You are an inspiration.:patriot:

[TexasObserver]

170. I call it nagging, and there's an abundance of that.

Some posters seem to think nagging is the way to argue.

Like little yapping dogs, they yap, yap, yap incessantly and with the same lack of impact.

But bullying? Not really.

[Baclava]

179. Bully intimidation from virtual fuckwads?

not bloody likely

You got a problem with that?

[county worker]

182. There are a bunch of issues where there is one acceptable point of view.

Usually the OP goes like this, "as liberals we think ..........................", or "as a liberal I think ......................" or "the liberal view is ..................." or I am a liberal because I believe ..............................." as if you have another opinion you are not a liberal.

[defendandprotect]

185. There's a tendency .... sometimes you can turn it around .... sometimes

it's a male poster who will try to intimidate by throwing in a lot of vulgarity --

just had a poster responding to me in that way --

Especially right now, the FEARS of posters -- and the feelings of IMPOTENCE re Dems --

are all more on display.

Meanwhile, the Calvary is coming!! More and more Democrats no matter the anguish and

disappointments of the Obama administration are deciding -- and will continue to decide, I hope --

to not throw away the liberal/progressive SURGE we began in '06 ----

and that they will decide once again to vote for the lesser of evils!!

The way I'm looking at it is we should knock out as many Republicans as possible --

and if we succeed, we can deal with corporate-Democrats after that!

And, I hope I'm not wrong on this -- both sides need to come together now and make this happen.

That doesn't mean that criticism of Obama and Dems will stop -- it just means that we need to

continue the push we began and keep PUSHING TO THE LEFT~!!!



:)

[tigereye]

186. hmm, do you mean rudeness, or people who can't seem to deal well with

others, or some cliqueness? Bullying per se seems like a bit of a strong term. We are all (well mostly) adults here, we aren't in high school and we do have an ignore function... :shrug:

[Mimosa]

195. I didn't until I saw the new topic in my post below:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9326185&mesg_id=9326185

Seriously, are there any gay mods?

[Whisp]

203. DU is pretty well bully proof.

There is the ignore feature and the block feature on PMs.

Now if it comes to a matter of being physically threatened that is something to be reported to the Admin (o wait, some people actually CAN physically threaten others and just get a little time out for the offense, forgot about that).

If someone has any kind of personal info on you that can be used to scare you, that's bullying. Most of the complaints here are about getting annoyed someone doesn't agree with you or perhaps calls you silly names.

Please, bullying is a serious offense and shouldn't be watered down like this.

[Quantess]

208. "Bullying" is hyperbole.

Too late to Unrec.

[totodeinhere]

210. Hey, it's just text flashing on your computer monitor. If you don't like it you can just laugh it

off. But real bullying in schools for instance is up close and personal and can lead to physical violence and mental anguish. There is no comparison.