VIDEOS: Systematically Trained Abusive Soldiers

[defendandprotect]

VIDEOS: Systematically Trained Abusive Soldiers

By Ethan McCord

These are videos I took from soldiers of Bravo Company, 2nd Battalion, 16th Infantry. If the name sounds familiar, it should. This was the unit I was in that was also depicted in the “collateral murder” video released by WikiLeaks.

I started to “acquire” these videos and some pictures once I realized that what we are doing in Iraq is wrong. These videos are of detainee abuse. Not the type of abuse that’s physical, but the mental, emotional, degrading type. Which in my eyes is worse than simply striking a person.

I’ve held on to these for three years now, debating on how to release them responsibly. I want to point out, first hand, that these soldiers are doing EXACTLY as they have been trained. I’m not trying to excuse their behavior, but simply pointing out that this is a systematic problem. While your anger may initially be placed with the soldiers in the videos, I think your anger should be directed towards the system that trained them.

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/mike-friends-blog/systematically-trained-abusive-soldiers


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This was one of the main CHANGES that we needed --

TORTURE isn't only about our soldiers -- it's about threatening our entire population because

that's what torture is really about . . . silencing protest everywhere.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[zeemike]

3. It was not always so

But we have forgotten all of that now and this is the new normal.
I went through basic training in 1960 and in the propaganda they gave us they stressed the point that we were moral people and did not do the horrible things that the Nazis and the commies did. And in fact I remember one training film about how the difference between them and us was that they believed that the end justifies the means...something we held as morally wrong.
Now all of that has been forgotten in favor of the idea that the end does justify the means.

[defendandprotect]

5. Right ...they were still using the shield of "spreading democracy" then... but in VN, it was,

of course, also a lie! From Gulf of Tonkin Resolution to controlling the

Golden Triangle and VN's wealth in natural resources. And, what were the

years of the Phoenix Program? Colby says just in time he monitiored it we

killed 60,000 VN peasants by torturing them and then throwing them out of

helicopters!!

Sometimes there's a big difference between what our government says and

what it actually does.

VN was fighting for an end to its colonial status -- and UN supported that

quest. US didn't.

Did they mention at any time all of that to you?

[zeemike]

9. Vet Nam was when I started to see the changes.

they started to trough out the stories about how little kids would frag you and how you could not trust any gook....the military leadership decided it was OK to adopt the end justifying the means in order to win....and they still are on that.

[defendandprotect]

19. Agree ..... and then even further to the dark side in Afghanistan/Iraq .....

[era veteran]

4. Bullshit

Basic training was fun. See what your made of. A sociopath is born that way. Good men don't just fucking change.

[defendandprotect]

6. I'd like to agree with you, but sadly it is the training .... unless we believe that

all of these soldiers regretting what they have done in torturing were born that way ...

and that doctors/psychiatrists who aided this torture were born that way?

Sociopaths are made -- our society and teachings can create insanity -- can drive men

to do things they might ordinarily NOT do.

That's also the lesson of Hitler and Jesus --

they were both human -- and both examples teach us what humans are capable of!!

[era veteran]

10. Calling Bullshit

Also no 60,000 Vietnamese were thrown out of hueys, complete and utter bullshit. I am not a sociopath, and my lifer father, veteran of 3 wars was not either.

[defendandprotect]

18. Comments like that are NOT debate ....

Evidently you served in a war you knew nothing about ....



In 1959 he was posted to Siagon, a posting which lasted until 1962, where he then became the head of the CIA's Far East Division. This lasted until 1967. 1 year later he became the director of Operation Phoenix, which was designed to identify and eliminate communist activity in South Vietnam. Colby believed this was better than straight military force, which only served to alienate the Vietnamese people. By the time to project was ended in 1971, it was estimated that as many as 60,000 people had died in relation to the project, with many believed to have been killed in cold blood. Colby maintained the number was much closer to 21,000, with most of the deaths occuring due to combat between CIA and enemy forces. Anti war protestors used the project as a main point in their movement, labeling it an assassination program and a crime against humanity. In this period, Colby also helped in securing large parts of South Vietnam, with only around 3% of villages considered as "contested" by the end of 1971. To go with this, a program was in place known as Chieu Hoi, which Colby believed brought in around 17,000 guerilla defectors.

http://everything2.com/user/Swift%255E/writeups/William+Colby


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The CIA still had a role to play, however. Called Operation Phoenix, it was an assassination program plain and simple. The idea was to cripple the NLF by killing influential people like mayors, teachers, doctors, tax collectors-anyone who aided the functioning of the NLF's parallel government in the South.

Many of the "suspects" were tortured and some were tossed from helicopters during interrogation. William Colby, the CIA official in charge of Phoenix (he later became director of the CIA), insisted this was all part of "military necessity"- though he admitted to Congress that he really had no idea how many of the 20,000 killed were Viet Cong and how many were "loyal" Vietnamese.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTE--9sPgPg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s18oRbUMPbs

http://www.namebase.org/main3/Operation-Phoenix.html



-------------

There are varying reports on what Colby testified to, and when, and the numbers --

estimates are 60,000 - 70,000 killed in Operation Phoenix

Colby Testified to 21,000 and higher figures -- during his monitoring of the program --

and other reports that he testified that overall Phoenix killed 60,000 to his knowledge.


OPERATION PHOENIX is a well known project of murder in Vietnam

and it is also suspected that something similar to it domestically may have been

run Nixon in US --


Vulgarity doesn't stop truth -- as much as you might wish it to!

[era veteran]

22. Why did your quote differ from your response? I'll show you

YOU said "we killed 60,000 VN peasants by torturing them and then throwing them out of helicopters." Your "quoted material said : " some were tossed from helicopters during interrogation. William Colby, the CIA official in charge of Phoenix (he later became director of the CIA), insisted this was all part of "military necessity"- though he admitted to Congress that he really had no idea how many of the 20,000 killed were Viet Cong and how many were "loyal" Vietnamese." Some ain't 60,000 people, especially when the 'some' are from a group of 20,000. So, "Comments like that are NOT debate .... " No, not debate, just calling bullshit on your misstated facts. Your first comment pissed me off " Evidently you served in a war you knew nothing about" If that is vulgarity, so be it. 60,000 thrown out BULLSHIT . E fucking O fucking M.

[defendandprotect]

30. The accepted figure is 60,000 over all ....

Colby was reporting the figures during HIS time of monitoring the program.

But -- at least now you're aware that Operation Phoenix did exist and what it did ....!!

:eyes:


PS: Again, vulgarity isn't debate --

[era veteran]

31. So, you misquoted a bullshit #

I know op ash bird.

[defendandprotect]

32. I leave you to your vulgarities and delusions ....

bye --

[era veteran]

33. You can say most anything you want here

You are ridiculous, lie in your post then take the ball and go home to mommy, this is for big kids. 60,000 people thrown out of hueys was a dastardly lie that besmirches the service. I worked for a striker that was killing communist enemies for the US. He was a honorable man. What was purpose of lie?

[Odin2005]

15. Psychopaths are born, sociopaths are made.

[proteus_lives]

7. No, actually it's not.

It's about training and reactions. Stuff that keeps service members alive.

Or do you think all veteran DUers are sociopaths? :eyes:

[Odin2005]

11. I'm going by what my cousin told when when he was in basic.

He said he was disturbed by many of the things he saw.

[proteus_lives]

13. Is he a sociopath?

And I repeat, do you think the numerous Vet DUers are sociopaths?

[Odin2005]

14. No. I was not meaning it turned them LITERALLY into sociopaths.

During WW2 it was discovered that a large numbers of soldiers shot into the air intentionally, they could not bring them selves to kill another human being. A lot of Basic Training is to get rid of that response, desensitizing soldiers to the evil of killing.

[proteus_lives]

16. Edit: the necessary evil of killing.

And yeah, they do have to be desensitized. Because other people will be trying to kill them.

I've read about that study as well.

"No. I was not meaning it turned them LITERALLY into sociopaths."

Really? Because that's not what it scanned as.

Remember there are a lot of DUers who are veterans and you were insulting them.

Plus, I have numerous friends and family members who went through boot camp and military service and they're good people.

[madokie]

23. Sounds like maybe you have a cousin who is disturbed

I went through Navy basic from Sept 7 '67 through Nov 23, '67 then went back to basic in a training capacity. I can tell you right now that there was no disturbing things in the Navy's basic training. When I type no I mean NO disturbing facets of Navy basic training. You've been fed some bullshit is all I can think of. :hi:

[defendandprotect]

20. Obviously, today's training continues to turn soldiers into murderers --

and torturers --

Sy Hersh has spoken about this a number of times -- so has Howard Zinn --

Hersh: "One of the most brutal and cruel armies US has ever raised!"

[proteus_lives]

21. You like to broad-brush, no surprise there.

Ask the vast, vast majority of men and women who enter and leave the armed forces without becoming murderers what they think of that statement.

[madokie]

24. This Vet won't stand for listening or reading bullshit like that without letting it be known that

was pure d o bullshit. I came away a more compassionate person as I believe most of the Sailer's I helped to train did.

[defendandprotect]

28. You're a vet who knew nothing about Operation Phoenix in Vietnam .... ???

And, again, vulgarity isn't debate -- !!

[era veteran]

25. Agree

Although, if this present Army is so bad MAYBE we should have a no deferment draft. We probably wouldn't send a bunch of rich boys to die. The USA would be fine without the Sardaukar class.

[defendandprotect]

29. Have a feeling the "Cheney's" would always find a way to send someone else in their place ...!

[defendandprotect]

27. Sy Hersh certainly knows what he's talking about -- and is not broad-brushing ....

We also know that the military has had to resort to VIDEOs to try to train

soldiers to kill --

and the very -- UNDENIABLE EVIDENCE OF TORTURE that we have belies all your

attempts to deny what has really been going on.

Not only has our military abused its own soldiers -- it has corrupted the

medical professionals who also work with them, moving them to engage in preparations

for TORTURE and who knows what more.

[Cid_B]

26. Good god! What can we do!

All my empathy must have been drained at Basic! *goes to find a kitten and a puppy to hug at the same time*

[G_j]

2. torture threatens everyone

it's all about fear.

btw, the outrage over "collatoral murder" sure has been muted, if not silent.
We are in deep 'spiritual' trouble..

[defendandprotect]

8. Completely agree with you .....

but everything the public rejects and is repulsed by is "muted" by our corporate-press.

If every citizen understood completely how other citizens were feeling -- other than

the examples of idiotic T-baggers sponsored by GOP -- they would be more inclined to

organize and come together and get out in the streets to protest .......... IMO.

We might also notice that we basically have non-existance of leadership!!



:)

[G_j]

12. I like to think that also

people in general, have the potential and desire to manifest the positive, though unfortunately, it can go both ways.

[defendandprotect]

17. Noam Chomsky often points out how essential it is for elites ....

to keep the public confused -- especially re this being a liberal nation --

If it weren't, there would be no need for such intense BUYING of support by the GOP

nor would there be such a need to control all of MSM and publications, etal.

IMO, every bit of truth is very dangerous to them -- all of their myths are like

mirrors -- and every pebble of truth shatters them!

Keep on tossin' the pebbles!

:)