RE: School Assault – PLEASE STOP putting the responsibility on the victims to defend themselves.

[HughBeaumont]

Seems to me that every one of these school assault (and that’s what it should be called when someone puts their hands on you without asking) threads have a bunch of "shoulda/woulda/coulda suddenly tough guys" on them. You know the kind:

"I was miniscule and wimpy, but I stood up for MYself. And you know what? I never got picked on again. That's what EVERYone should do who's being bullied."



Really?

We all like to dream how things ideally could be, should the right circumstances and the right amount of reliance in people's reactions to heroism come into play. But more often than not, standing up for oneself, however necessary and noble, often leads to consequences that could haunt the victim for months and years down the road.

I’ll use my HS weight and height as an example: All the self-defense in the world isn't going to matter if you're 5'8", weigh 135, aren’t really that fast, don’t have fighting skills, and aren’t really interested in trouble to begin with and your predator is the size of Brian Urlacher, faster than you and has even a hint of fighting skills. As it was explained before, there’s a reason boxing and wrestling is grouped by weight.

You think assaulters can’t see kicks to the nuts coming? They practically expect it from kids who are weaker and have a size/reach disadvantage. They can see punches coming. They're fans of MMA and likely take martial arts just like you would have to. Sociopaths don't bully without having the backup or the fighting skills to do it.

Victimizers don't and never have cowered down to their victims; that's just not what they do. It's also not in their inherent nature to pick on someone that WILL fight back, which the victimized aren't often able to do. They’re also very rarely alone, as the ones who assaulted me often were not. Because of this, even if you were able to stand up to your victim successfully, that doesn’t mean you’re going to be left alone. That means you’ll be hunted by a pack instead of just a lone wolf.

More importantly, does anyone ever stop and think that the perfect situation where the victim can just fight back, beat up his tormentor (which often doesn't happen) and not get into any trouble for it whatsoever just does not exist? Eyes are everywhere. There's NEVER a situation where you're fighting and no one sees it. That's part of the bully's M.O. . . . an audience for his domination.

I mean, HELLO!! Did the thought of grabbing a chair or a bike chain or a bat or any other weapon to blast these idiot's grills with until they couldn't talk anymore ever cross my mind? I'm pretty sure it did, and that’s pretty much the only way, given my size at the time, this would have been successful.

It's just that I knew all too well about how school administrators work. I would get caught. Most of the people who bullied me were teacher's and booster's kids. Whose word are they going to take? Who's the community, the herd, going to believe? The "four eyed loner marching band fag" or the exemplary honor student, son of the teacher?

School officials don't see "finally . . . he stood up for himself, how brave". They see "He FOUGHT . . . just like that other punk who was messing with him. And I'm sorry, but rules are rules. I got parents and a school board to answer to, this is bad publicity for my school (see Mentor High, Ohio) and the sooner these kids become someone ELSEs problem and this is forgotten, the better off I'LL be!"

I'd have gotten sent to a juvenile facility in a fast heartbeat, the school would have been glad with one less psychopath on their hands, my life would have been ruined even worse than it already was and the assholes would continue . . . to be assholes.

So please, please, PLEASE stop assuming that this fantasy bullshit solution is going to work for everyone. It DOESN’T. It’s stupid and puts the onus on the victim to stand up for him/herself for something the victim never asked for or should have been put into in the first damned place.

The only solution that’s going to work is that adults and administrators HAVE to start taking this problem seriously and treat it for what it really is: A CRIME. Assault is a CRIME. It’s not “kids being kids”, it’s not “a part of growing up” and has nothing to do with “the strong survive”. It’s a CRIME. Stop failing your children, get your hands dirty, stop sweeping this crap under the rug and do SOMEthing about it.

[Teaser]

1. of course.

that said, if one victim should happen to kick the shit out of their tormentors, I won't feel too bad about it.

[xchrom]

2. society wants us to believe that even if we get our ass kicked it builds 'character'.

what if it builds trauma, cruelty, damage to image and a host of other problems?

i've come to HATE the word 'character'.

[Teaser]

3. seriously, all being bullied did for me

was make me more of a sociopath than I was already predisposed toward being. That is character I would have avoided if I could have.

[HughBeaumont]

6. Correct.

They robbed me of what was supposed to be a formative and fun time in my life and turned me into a person that has an extreme distrust and dislike of popularity, authority figures and administrators that generally wash their hands of any conflict they're supposed to be intervening in.

I got horrible grades as a result and also a strained relationship with my parents that took 10 years to repair completely. The reason being is because they took the typical approach of putting ME at fault for what happened to me and to this day they tell me to "Get over it".

[HughBeaumont]

5. The one thing I never understood about it all is this:

Parents who wouldn't abuse their own children, but are OK with having someone else do it, using that whole "character building", "part of growing up" bullshit as an excuse. I never understood that.

If I had a nickel for every adult who told me "It was MY fault", "You ALLOW it to happen", or the ineffective and positively stupid "Stand up for yourself", I'd have gas money for a year.

[RKP5637]

68. Many adults are F'en fools and many shouldn't even have anything to do with raising kids or

even being around them IMO.

[HughBeaumont]

72. Mine too . . .

[Brickbat]

4. Yup -- the stories we hear about victims standing up to bullies are great because they're so rare.

You don't hear about the victims who stood up and got pounded, or the ones who just put up with it for years and have lived with the pain ever since. The focus needs to be on the bullies, to make them stop and to punish, and the bystanders, who have a lot more ability to stop what's going on.

Bullies win because people stand around and watch, or don't want to get involved. It's not because victims don't fight back. It's because society stands around and does nothing.

[HughBeaumont]

9. It's kind of like another authoritarian fantasy - Horatio Alger.

"Pull yerself up by yer bootstraps and start your own business!"

Well, if that's such an astounding plan, then why isn't everyone doing that?

And just like "standing up for yourself", it all comes down to how "weak or strong" you are. And again, it completely disregards other mitigating factors as to why one wouldn't be successful with self employment or standing up for themselves.

Victim blaming is rooted in both fantasies.

[Brickbat]

22. That's an excellent comparison, and one I hadn't thought of.

Spot on.

[blondeatlast]

7. Indeed--zero-tolerance policies include self-defense. It needs to be said--a lot, apparently.

Thanks for doing so.

Edit: typo.

[Jkid]

53. and they often conveniently forget about that.

So when the victim took the advice, they will wash their hands off the problem by getting rid of the victim.

[supernova]

8. Yes, exactly!

Bravo!

I'm tired of all the exhortations for the victim to overpower the bully. It's not a solution, just a continuation of the problem. And it still makes the victim the responsible one for the problem, not the bullly. It's the bully who needs to feel and act responsible for his/her own behaviour. And a good dose of shame and guilt would go well here too.

[RKP5637]

10. Putting the responsibility on the victims is a school administration's

fool response for not having the guts, will and savvy to stop bullying in schools. It's a complete cop put. Blame the victim, they might go away, blame the bully and they might kick the shit out of you. Many school administrators are gutless IMO. We had one that used to run and hide in the closet, seriously.

[Enthusiast]

61. My younger

brother and I were victims of school bus bullying. We were punished along with the perpetrators. Never once did we even have the opportunity to tell our side of the story. Catholic school, the head nun was completely in the dark yet she meted out punishment. I was shocked at the complete lack of justice then, before I even knew what justice was.

[RKP5637]

65. It's a pretty lame immature world in many ways. n/t

[get the red out]

11. Brilliantly put

Thank you, I get tired of the sweep it under the carpet blame the victim idea of "self-defense" also. As I posted on another thread a few days ago, some of my tormentors were boys and I am female. When the guy shoved me into the bleachers during field hockey in PE, the teacher did nothing. This guy went on to play defensive end at a school in the Southeastern Conference. He got his college paid for for knocking down D-1 offensive players and he was good at it. I should have fought back? My Mother would get so upset when I would tell her of being bullied that she would end up screaming at me because I was the one there in front of her. She required just a few things of me, good grades, good behavior, and having to hear of NO PROBLEMS.

And the girls ran in gangs, yea, getting pounded would have made a statement, FOR THEM. My best friend was a boy who was small for his age and suspected by the students that mattered in the school of being gay. He was beaten to a pulp with dodge balls in PE by not only all the boys in class but the large teacher's aid also. He was black and blue but didn't tell his father at first, who was already scared to death his son would turn out gay and taking every measure to prevent it, like trying to limit time spent hanging out with girls, (ok, I guess I turned my best friend gay because I'm a girl, but his partner's really nice and cute, so what's the problem?). I do have to give it to his Dad, when he found out later what had happened he was really mad, but figured it was too late to do anything.

I mention these two incidents because they occurred in front of teachers in a class situation who did nothing and weren't expected to. The social rules of the native child tribe were respected. The school had winning football and baseball teams and the cheerleaders were pretty. The undesirables needed to know their place.

(Edited due to grammer that could add to the poor opinion many have of us Kentuckians.)

[alp227]

39. I say get that D1 Football player's name out.

It's a great opportunity to call him out on it and make him apologize and face the music or lose his NFL dreams forever. :evilgrin:

[hunter]

12. The hair-trigger fight-or-flight response I developed as a kid who was constantly bullied...

... has not served me well "in the real world."

FLASH-BANG-RUN! is not an effective response to most human conflicts.

[Edweird]

13. The powerlessness exhibited in your post is a perfect example

of why children should be allowed and encouraged to stand up for themselves. You are STILL being victimized and worse yet, you expect others to just accept victimization while demanding that someone else fight your battles for you. In life there are bullies - this is inescapable. The best time to learn how to deal with them is as a child when the potential repercussions are minimal. Learning how to deal with them is an essential life tool.

[HughBeaumont]

15. Except the repercussions aren't often minimal.

Should we just be expected to "take assbeatings" at work or in the real world or should the weak just be culled from the herd?

Assault should not be "part of growing up". The real world isn't a goddamned fight club and an institution of learning shouldn't be either.

[Edweird]

16. No matter what, the bullies will still be there - and the cavalry is NOT on the way.

You are ultimately responsible for defending yourself. If you choose to be a powerless victim then so be it, but advocating that others be forced to do so is sad. Many have enough self esteem and a strong enough sense of right and wrong to not let bullying go without a response. 'Institutions of learning' are in fact quite a lot like a 'goddamned fight club' and at times so is the grown up world.

[gaspee]

18. To me

You sound like one of the bullies. I don't expect you to listen to my opinion, but please try to listen and process it. You might not even know that's how you sound. You are free to reject my opinion, of course.

I was never bullied and stuck up for kids who were. As a gender non-conforming, athletic female the girls wouldn't pick on someone who could kick their asses and had no qualms about sticking up for herself. The boys, since I had no interest in them, had no power over me.

I have always despised bullies - they always picked on weaker kids and that was so lame. I practically dared them to pick on me and none ever did.

[Edweird]

34. You are certainly entitled to your opinion however wrong it may be.

I was the 'weird kid' - hence the screen name. It's a play on my given name: Edward. I had a particularly emotionally traumatic childhood and did not function socially until well into high school. I stood out in every imaginable way and was an easy target. I was bullied and harassed until I made it crystal clear that I had had enough.

I'm not excusing or advocating for bullies - I dislike them intensely. What I am saying is that the bullies in school do not evaporate once you graduate. They are still in the same world as you. You have to deal abusive assholes in the real world. There is no hall monitor.

You weren't bullied. I was. I stood up for myself and fought back.

[Enthusiast]

62. I have to say

that bullying doesn't stop when we graduate from high school or college. There are bullies in the factory, office and every sort of workplace. But adult bullies don't seem to last long. Someone will call them on their behavior and THEY will often end up humiliated.

[Edweird]

74. There's one where I work right now.

He ingratiates himself to management and then proceeds to generate conflict with coworkers. He and I were coworkers previously and he had to leave the last company because he earned so much hostility that he was in physical danger. (along with his usual sniping and backstabbing he ran over a friend of mine's son with an excavator. Nobody believes his claim that it was an 'accident') Fortunately my boss has a long history with this jerk - including punching him in the nose way back in the day - so his attempts at conflict creation are usually taken with a grain of salt. That being said he is still creating a hostile work environment for everyone and me in particular.

[bettyellen]

75. so by your own words, you're creating your own victimhood here, and wallowing in it?

[Edweird]

76. Where did I say that?

I hold him accountable for his nonsense.

[bettyellen]

83. "he is still creating a hostile work environment for everyone and me in particular". OUCH

[Enthusiast]

86. Are you bullying?

Who care what he said? Lighten up. He was relating an experience many of us share. And we don't invite it. There are just horrible fucking people out there, or haven't you noticed.

[bettyellen]

88. no, just quoting him. he;s the one who doesn;t think society should do anything about bullies

but only that bullies should cope with it themselves. somehow he didn;t seem to make the connection that it is still happeing to him, and he can;t fix it alone.
sorry this all bothers you so much. it's called conversation. that;s what we do here.

[Enthusiast]

85. I've seen the same kind

of behavior.

[HughBeaumont]

19. I hospitalize my tormentor and get arrested - HOW DOES THAT HELP ME?

I take a bat to him and get expelled from school and possibly sent to a detention home, where I'll be doing this sort of thing daily - WHAT DID THAT ACCOMPLISH?

I piss off one person, several others now hunt me - HOW DOES THAT HELP?

And don't tell me that's the risk I have to take - I DIDN'T ASK FOR THE ASSAULT TO HAPPEN IN THE FIRST FUCKING PLACE!!

In real life, if someone assaults you, it becomes a police matter and there's nothing "sad" about that. THAT'S THE WAY THE REAL FUCKING WORLD WORKS. Sorry if you don't seem to understand that.

[Posteritatis]

25. In real life you're less likely to be punished for self-defense, too

Schools forbid self-defense even when attacked the days, but it'd take a pretty bold judge to claim that sort of rule applies to adults. Hell, someone in another thread on bullying yesterday mentioned that his school actually specifies in writing that self-defense is not tolerated.

Part of the problem is that people can't defend themselves, yes, but the fact that they are forbidden from even trying to in the middle of an assault isn't exactly making things better for any victims.

You're absolutely right that police ought to get involved in these more, of course.

[Posteritatis]

27. Clarifying additions go here

I agree with you entirely with your OP, that it shouldn't be the victims' responsibility to defend themselves when there's always the option of little shits going after them getting prevented from doing so - or punished for doing so - in the first place. Sometimes that's not feasible, as it wasn't in my own zero-stamina asthmatic childhood.

What I mean is that the option of being allowed to make the effort without punishment should at least be present, in the same way that an adult, when physically attacked by another adult, is allowed to try to take action to make their assailant stop and (in theory) assured that their assailant will face legal consequences either way. "Just walk away" is not a viable option if a student is cornered, or chased down, or whatever else, and schools (and parents) need to stop vanishing up their own asses into a magical land where it is, and get into the real world where it not only isn't, but where these things called laws usually say that people aren't allowed to corner or chase down someone to commit violence upon them unprovoked.

Both of those approaches - an actual possibility of the assailant getting disciplined, and permission for the victim to so much as try to block a punch - as well as some move towards preventative behavior need to exist. A step away from "the victim deserves it" would be nice too, of course, but I can only feel so optimistic.

[HughBeaumont]

31. Look up Tracy Thurman.

Her ex stabbed her 11 times. She's lying on the floor in a bloody mess with stab wounds and an officer appears. The officer didn't even bother to apprehend her ex . .. even when he hauled off and kicked her. What's worse, once back up arrived, her ex was still walking around, not restrained. It was only when he went after her again that the officers at the scene decided to act. UNbelievable.

So much for depending on police.

Naturally, in light of this gross negligence of duty, the judge awarded her, IIRC, 2.4 million in punative damages. Her ex went to jail for about . .. 4 years, upon which he got out, got a new woman, and abused her also. Her son apparently didn't turn out so good.

The positive thing to come out of all this is that, with Ohio schools being in the national news for bullying epidemics, my son's high school actually takes all peer assault seriously and students and administrators alike DO step in when they see a problem of harassment. Huge change from my day.

[Posteritatis]

32. How do they respond to it? (nt)

[HughBeaumont]

33. An example would be from a couple of years back:

Someone vandalized an Asian girl's car with graffiti and smeared dogshit under the door handles. A few students got wind of who did it and turned them in. They also have strong anti-bullying and peer counseling programs. Apparently, they're one of top state-ranked school academically. It has it's issues like any other, but there doesn't appear to be any violent incidents.

[Edweird]

35. You do whatever works for you. Elective victimization isn't for me.

[bettyellen]

56. this isn't just about you. schools shouldn't be daily reenactments of Lord of the Flies

administraitors and parents need to step up.

[bkozumplik]

54. stick up for yourself

end of story

[Hissyspit]

38. Except that you can be persecuted and held responsible for standing up for yourself.

Falsely blamed for starting the altercation, getting a reputation for being a troublemaker, even getting a police record, if it comes to that. And kids eprried about future implications on their record, or NOT KNOWING what those implications may be find themselves stuck between a rock and a hard place.

[Wednesdays]

46. So, bullies act out in psychopathic ways, hurt and humiliate others

and the one who has to change their behavior...is the victim? :crazy:

And why the hell is the cavalry NOT coming? In the "real world" that you seem to love so dearly, if an adult is harassed or cornered, the perpetrator will almost invariably be looking at the opposite end of a policeman's nightstick and/or facing a hefty lawsuit. Why isn't the same protection afforded our children?

Ah yes, because it doesn't teach the children "character"...they'll be wallowing in their victimhood. Uh-huh. Just like I'd be wallowing in my victimhood by sending a hoodlum to jail.

I agree with gaspee, you sound just like one of the bullies yourself.

[Enthusiast]

63. Who in the fuck would

CHOOSE to be a powerless victim?!

[treestar]

67. Bullies and criminals will always be around

What we attack is the attitude that schoolyard bullies are part of nature and should simply be accepted - no, the bully should be caught and punished, not allowed to continue.

The bullied kid has always had a problem - why not create problems for the bully? The tacit acceptance of the bully's behavior emboldens him or her.

[RKP5637]

69. I guess this is why the US has been perpetually at war with someone or about

to go to war my entire life... "a 'goddamned fight club' and at times so is the grown up world."

[datasuspect]

81. it's not that you should be expected to "take assbeatings"

it's just that life isn't fair, you aren't special, and sometimes assbeatings happen.

that's life.

at least you don't have to compete with other tribes for scarce food resources in the wilderness.

[CreekDog]

21. Yes, minimal, like this example:

Boy Burned by Bullies, Mother Says Michael Brewer Staying Strong

Michael Brewer, 15, of Deerfield Beach, Fla., was intentionally set on fire.

Michael Brewer was doused with rubbing alcohol and set on fire after he turned in another teen for trying to steal his father's bicycle.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-5385818-504083.html

[pnwmom]

47. The potential repercussions are minimal? You haven't been

in a school lately, and you know nothing about how long scars from childhood abuse can endure.

[chervilant]

51. OMG!!!!

Do you not see the fallacy of your assertion?!?!

I strongly encourage you to read "Blaming the Victim" by William Ryan. Perhaps you might understand that we humans identify with bullies, because the 'victims' of bullying are 'wimps' and 'dweebs' and need I pull any more pejorative terms out of my childhood to substantiate my contention that most humans would rather identify with bullies?!?

If we (collectively) don't establish some protocols for helping our children learn communication strategies and conflict resolution skills that clearly identify bullying as inappropriate and unacceptable, then we will continue to experience the inevitable consequences of legitimized power imbalance (relationship violence, rape, hate crimes, road rage, etc., etc., etc.)!

[RKP5637]

71. IMO getting bullies under control should be a top priority at any school. As you say,

"If we (collectively) don't establish some protocols for helping our children learn communication strategies and conflict resolution skills that clearly identify bullying as inappropriate and unacceptable, then we will continue to experience the inevitable consequences of legitimized power imbalance (relationship violence, rape, hate crimes, road rage, etc., etc., etc.)!'

IMO this is part of what a civilized society is all about. If we fail as a society at the school level, then we fail as a society overall. And then we might as well be a bunch of tribes roving about with warlords killing each other off. I thought years ago we were coming far past that, but anymore, IMO, we as a civilization are continuously regressing.

If one were to take away technology, IMO, we have done little to advance as a civilized society.

[bobbolink]

77. As a Greek friend said a lot of years ago about these "advances"

"Yes, we have more flush toilets, but otherwise we haven't changed civilization much since the Ancient Greeks."

[RKP5637]

84. Very well said!!! n/t

[bluestateguy]

92. It does have an undercurrent of victimology to it

And people with such attitudes tend to grow up as professional victims and underachievers as well.

[Warpy]

14. The only thing that will stop a bully is a bloody nose

but the victim isn't always the one who has to deliver it. In fact, the schools and other adults should step in first, not last, and let the bullies know that isn't acceptable behavior and it will have consequences they won't like.

Risking serious injury to get just one punch in to a gang of bullies is a daunting proposition for any kid. Most kids don't do it unless they finally snap. Other kids just turn inward and kill themselves. When adults stay out of it, these are the alternatives.

Kids who are bullies will grow up to be adults who are bullies because bullying works. Just look at the average office to see it at work.

Bullies of all ages make this a miserable world to live in. The hands off, we might get sued approach is not working, has never worked, will never work.

Adults need to get involved at the beginning, when the behavior starts, giving the bully his bloody nose, at least metaphorically, early and often enough that he abandons the behavior.

[Posteritatis]

24. Handcuffs work in some situations too; pity schools never consider that

Kid in an elementary school here's been bullied enough to make the news lately - kicked in the face until he broke a tooth, shot at with pellet guns, and jumped on the way home about twice a week. The school's response was to release him five minutes early so he could get a head start, accompanied by a refusal to discipline the bullies. Someone needs a visit from the police in that situation, and I have no hope whatsoever that it's going to happen.

[HughBeaumont]

28. Like one of the posts in that thread said about that -

And I'm paraphrasing - "Yes, because predators sure are turned off by the hunt. :eyes:"

[Posteritatis]

29. Yeah, tell me about it

I was fuming all day after hearing about that response. And just as evidence, since I fully understand how hard it would be for some to believe a school would do something so staggeringly stupid, have the link and join me in the fuming!

I'm having trouble seeing how that one can do anything other than simply make it worse for the kid - the school's made it official that he's a target, that they won't act after he's gone, and the bullies get the "outrage" of seeing their target get Special Treatment, too.

[DirkGently]

36. I think that's a good take. The need to fight back is a given. The how is a bit more complicated.

[whistler162]

43. A price list worked fine for me........

In junior high. Got to know a couple of the guys who bullied me a few years after high school. Nice guys, went to business college with one and church with another.

[KittyWampus]

17. You can insist on bullies being held accountable AND help those with poor social skills.

I was bullied. I know what helped me not only to stop the bullying but to start making friends.

BTW, your post is very similar to those trying to assert that teaching women how to avoid potentially dangerous situations or act to defend themselves when confronted is somehow "blaming the victim" if they do get raped.

Society needs to hold a perpetrator accountable. Individuals need to find ways to defend themselves in the real world.

[HughBeaumont]

20. Wait . . . . what?

BTW, your post is very similar to those trying to assert that teaching women how to avoid potentially dangerous situations or act to defend themselves when confronted is somehow "blaming the victim" if they do get raped.

I'm telling adults and school administrators that they need to act and be responsible for those who can't defend themselves. Not every kid is physically capable of defending themselves against assaulters nor should they be put in the position in the first place. How do get the equation you just did?

[KittyWampus]

23. You are correct. I'm sorry. I went in the wrong direction.

Edit- I agree authorities need to hold offender accountable.

My attempted point is kids do need to learn how to defend themselves and saying so isn't blaming them for getting attacked.

[woo me with science]

58. Your point is a good one.

It's not blaming a kid to help him learn skills to be less of a target, and to defend himself. Teaching a strong attitude to the bullied is just as important as holding the bullies accountable.

Teaching kids to see themselves as victims can be as debilitating as the bullying itself.

[mentalsolstice]

26. I think I understand what Kitty is saying

She is saying that blaming the rape victim because she did not do more to defend herself is comparable to blaming the bullied victim for not punching the 6'5", 200 lb brute who is bullying him/her.

I volunteer for a rape response center, and as a policy we do not endorse nor sponsor self-defense classes. We do not have a problem with women who want to participate in such. However, we don't want to send the message to rape victims that they are to blame because they didn't have better self-defense skills. We also want each woman to be to seriously assess her situation before going for a kick to the groin (it doesn't always stop the attack, and it is really not a good idea if the attacker has a gun, it just pisses him off more). I'm not saying possessing self-defense skills is bad, but it's only going to stop a minuscule % of sexual assaults. Probably the same in bullying incidents. Bullies do so because they know they have strength in physicality, or in numbers (supporters).

[Dash87]

30. I agree completely.

Kids shouldn't be put into a situation where they have to fight back in the first place. :hug:

♥

[fascisthunter]

37. big problem is, nobody around those being bullied do anything to defend the victims

if more stuck up for each other when bullies start their shit, they will stop. Because inside they are the biggest cowards constantly looking for ways to make themselves feel bigger and better than others.

Some folks can't stand up to bullies, some can, some try.... but in the end, too many just watch.

[mentalsolstice]

45. You are so right!

There are some here that say the bullied kids should have better self-defense skills. It's not going to work against large kids with a big support system behind them. Other kids, not being bullied, stand on the sidelines hoping the bullies won't notice them next.

[KittyWampus]

70. Quite right. From what I've read bullies largely do their torture for their audience.

[alp227]

40. It's ridiculous enough that admins often ignore bullying.

I read in Brooks Brown's book (Brown used to go to Columbine High with one of the shooters) that admins were reluctant to confront bullies because such incidents would turn into "bully said, victim said" conflicting stories. It's even worse to see teachers ignore the issue EVEN WHEN THEY ARE DIRECT WITNESSES! "Fear of retaliation" much of an excuse?

[TBF]

41. In my house we have one rule - "no hitting" -

that includes everyone in the house - parents, children, animals. When I was a kid I thought that would be a great rule to have, and now that I'm the parent I like it even better.

Imagine what the world would be like if everyone followed that simple rule.

[mrmpa]

42. You got it so right

Assault is assault. I have teachers in my school assaulted and injured, but are afraid to report it because the administrators will only say "kids will be kids" and "you (the teacher) must have done something wrong". The assaults by students on other students is totally ignored by administration and the school board. I continually say that something major will occur and only then will the bullying and harming students might be addressed.

[chervilant]

55. Well, now,

here's an example for you:

A rather large (and young) new shop teacher kept telling his assistant principal that one of his students was a big problem, and needed to be removed from his classroom (especially after this student turned off the shop lights in a windowless room just as this teacher began to demonstrate ripping a board on a table saw). After another similar incident, the teacher took this student out into the hall for a verbal reprimand, and the student cold-cocked him in his temple, sending him to the floor. The student continued his assault, kicking the teacher repeatedly in his groin, chest, and head. The teacher had to go to the hospital after this assault.

Because the teacher did try to defend himself--as he went to retrieve his glasses from inside the classroom--the school decided that the teacher had 'assaulted' the student. Never mind that the teacher was disoriented, and possibly concussed, from the student's initial blow. The teacher was fired, and has been blacklisted in this school district, which means he will never teach again.

The 'student' was nineteen years old--having failed to graduate twice--and was significantly smaller than the teacher, which made it easy for the school to contend that this 'big' teacher must have assaulted the student. Furthermore, none of the other students would come forward in defense of the teacher. They all stood around laughing and pointing as the attacking student continued his assault.

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. You know I finally had it and stood up

I had to answer to the principal and it didn't stop. Since I had knee problems and was on and off crutches I was victimized. But it was my fault according to the school.

Schools have to treat thumbtacks on chairs as assault. Verbal abuse as abuse, taking away crutches... You get the picture. To this day I avoid those people, use the term loosely. Oh and I get it why kids commit suicide.

[Swagman]

48. I was bullied at school..never got over it. I'm 60.

[Cid_B]

49. This thread is full of whine....

... You can't control what anyone else does... You can only control your response.

All the posts here expecting someone else to do something, the bully to feel bad, someone to step in... You have to assume it won't happen so what are you going to do about it?

Jesus Christ...

[bettyellen]

57. your post is a big whine

[Enthusiast]

64. Plus fucking one! nt

[HughBeaumont]

73. How's about I just shoot them like a REAL alpha?

[datasuspect]

80. i hear you loud and clear

it's like people think therapy applies to real life.

[The Uncola]

50. Bravo!!!

:applause: :applause: :applause:

On another thread, I was given the tired analogy that teachers and administrators were helpless to do anything about bullying, (paraphrasing) "because unlike bosses firing employees for misconduct, teachers can't fire students for it" I say bullshit, that's just another lame excuse for them not doing their PRIMARY duty of keeping the kids, IN THEIR CHARGE, SAFE.

[Arkansas Granny]

52. Something I've noticed, that I haven't seen mentioned, is that bullies rarely

act alone. More often than not, they have "backup" which further intimidates their victim. Bullies are not known for picking on people who can defend themselves.

[Enthusiast]

59. K&R! Hey, without bullying

where would the present day right wing political movement be? Bullying is their number one MO. Watch a bit of Fox when they have a liberal guest on, it is immediately obvious. Again, another parallel with 1930s Germany.

[geckosfeet]

60. Yes - we need to defend the weak, and hopefully, by example, show them

how to defend themselves and others.

I agree with the sentiment that we need to help each other and defend each other, but everyone must take an active role in their defense. Yes - assault is illegal. But once it starts the point is moot if you do not survive the attack.

The attacker must vanquish, the defender must only survive.

Bullies do not intend to vanquish, they are simply out to torment, and that is their weakness. Murderous hate crimes, where attackers want to rob victims of their lives require active defense.

Please, survive to fight another day.

[laughingliberal]

66. K & R nt

[bobbolink]

78. Blaming The Victim has a stronger hold on our consciousness than we want to admit.

Blaming women. Look at all the posts which blame poor people! Blaming anyone weaker.

We, and that includes "progressives", are not coming to terms with our own erroneous assumptions.

[datasuspect]

79. you stop becoming a victim when you start kicking some ass

life isn't fair. you can take it or do something about it.

and no, building self esteem doesn't come through mollycoddling, it is forged in the arena of competition and abuse that is our educational system.

it's just like coach used to say, "walk it off." or as my ww2 grandfather used to say, "get tough, kid."

by the time he was 11, he worked the fields picking strawberries, watermelons, other assorted produce; by age 22 he had fought the japanese, been around the world, and was a proud veteran of a foreign war. by the time he was 30, he was a respected member of his community involved in business and community affairs.

people need to stop infantilizing children. you see these 20 somethings nowadays that do everything except play with fucking toys (and i'm sure they do that after their costume theme bar crawls in the middle of summer).

the current generation of young people are primarily interested in refreshing facebook every two seconds and looking at cell phone pictures they take of themselves.

i've never seen a more childish lot of young adults in all my years.

and this is the generation that was coddled to the extent that whenever they took a poop there was a team of counselors, advocates, parents, and mentors telling them how special their poop was to build their self esteem.

and fucking video games. i know 40 year old men that spend more than 20 hours per week playing video games. saying they're "killing people."

jesus. fucking. christ.

our grandfathers slaughtered the nazis, japanese, NVA, etc. and took actual human lives. they were boys, but their world required more from them than ours requires of their great grandchildren.

[BreweryYardRat]

82. The victims SHOULD NOT have to defend themselves.

You're right that "adults and administrators HAVE to start taking this problem seriously and treat it for what it really is: A CRIME. Assault is a CRIME. It’s not “kids being kids”, it’s not “a part of growing up” and has nothing to do with “the strong survive”. It’s a CRIME. Stop failing your children, get your hands dirty, stop sweeping this crap under the rug and do SOMEthing about it."

But that's not going to happen any time soon, no matter how hard people work on it.

Until bullying is taken seriously by the educational system, the victims will get better results by defending themselves.

I can count number of times a teacher/administrator intervened on my behalf and managed to stop the bullying permanently -- on the thumbs of one hand.

[HughBeaumont]

90. An undersized kid who can't fight really has no legal options other than adult intervention.

And all the Gunny Sgt Hartmann fantasy bullshit bravado put up by some delusional people on this thread won't make it so.

[ClintonGeo]

87. School Assault

The victims parents could hire the toughest guy
same age, from another school, to go "Talk" to the bully.

[Mariana]

89. Parents, please call the police when your kids are assaulted!

Do it! File charges against the perpetrators! Gather evidence: Document incidents, photograph injuries, find witnesses if you can. If we want schools to take these crimes against our children seriously, WE need to take them seriously, too.

[bluestateguy]

91. I still think self-defense should be promoted

Not as a first resort, but as a last resort, and yes parents, teachers and administrators need to do their jobs.

But when that does not work out, I do think self-defense should be an option, and policies should be changed to allow students to defend themselves without fear of suspension.

And besides, a school suspension will not ruin a kid's life. Take the day and do your homework, study for tests you have coming up, or just read a book. I had a friend in middle school who was suspended for fighting back against a bully. The school had a bullshit zero tolerance policy and suspended my friend. His parents, knowing full well that he was just defending himself couldn't convince the school to change their mind. So the next day, his suspension day, my friend spent the day at a baseball game with his father (who took the day off).