Is Porn a Natural Expression of Human Sexuality or Highly Sexiest and Degrading to Women?

[BrentWil]

I occasionally enjoy internet porn. Use it for obvious reasons. However, some of the videos clearly show women in ways that I find disrespectful. Here is where I am divided. Part of me thinks that it is no ones business. What two people do, either off film or on film, is there business and the people who choice to view it business. People have a right to their own sexuality and that should not demean them as a person. For example, groups that practice things like BDSM should be allowed, as long as they don't permanently damage each other. The other part thinks this is highly disrespectful to woman and I shouldn't be supporting it or that industry.

What are your thoughts?

[liberal N proud]

1. If one could feel comfortable that the actors were not being exploited

then it could be viewed as art or entertainment.

But known that so many are being exploited puts such taint on the industry.

[Schema Thing]

42. most porn out there is not "industry" produced. It's just 3 people with a camera

or one person with a camera. Or two people, or four, etc etc.

[liberal N proud]

85. Maybe, but is one of those people being coerced or demoralized?

That is always the question.

[Schema Thing]

93. well they certainly don't appear to be.

And since I've come to believe that men and women both evolved simultaneously over these last many eons, I don't think it's a stretch to think that the women are enjoying the sex, including the being-viewed aspect of sex for an audience, just as much or more than the men.

[liberal N proud]

97. I would like to believe that is 100% true

[Kalyke]

152. If the porn shows very little clitoral stimulaton and lots

of straight sex, then the woman is NOT enjoying it to the same degree as the man.

[saltpoint]

2. There's porn that objectifies women and porn that

objectifies men and porn that objectifies both.

I think people might very well be expected to be drawn toward their naked other selves. I think the impulse likely is hard-wired deep in the blood circuitry and no amount of frothy railing by fundie preachers is going to take it out.

I think it could be done by more gifted people to make it the lyrical and beautiful thing it can often be instead of the mechanical and preditable thing it often is. That said, I'm not opposed to it at all, but would prefer that more imaginative people were making it.

I'd like to see a healthier attitude toward sexuality and nudity generally, not unlike the Germans or other Europeans, who just don't get as freaked out over it as we do.

[Warren DeMontague]

77. Pfffffft. Have you ever *seen* any German Porn?

I rest my case.

[saltpoint]

79. I'm not sure on what grounds you're resting your case,

Warren.

[Warren DeMontague]

91. That the attitude towards sexuality is "healthier"

Maybe healthier than, say, Japan.

[saltpoint]

95. Mm. Well a lot depends on the people making the

film and who's financing it.

I'd like to see a far more imaginative set of folks in charge.

[Warren DeMontague]

96. You know what they say

if you don't like the stories you're reading, write your own.

Or something like that.

[Confusious]

131. The Heidi series was rather good. nt

[Warren DeMontague]

176. Know what we haven't seen? Porn that objectifies porn itself.

Then, someone could do porn that objectifies that.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

3. It Can Be Both

There are people who like to have sex and there are even people who like to have sex for others to watch.

[lightningandsnow]

4. Okay, the typo on this reminds me of Spinal Tap.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xF5TeHf5QQ

In all seriousness, it can be either. Porn, in of itself, is not degrading - however, mainstream porn often is.

A good friend of mine founded the Feminist Porn Awards a few years back, to celebrate and promote porn which fits the former category, not the latter.

[Radical Activist]

31. huh

Feminist Porn Awards. Very interesting. :freak:

[Warren DeMontague]

94. Because not all Feminists think penetrative sex is evil or inherently oppresive.

Imagine!

[Kalyke]

153. It's not evil - it's just not as stimulating to women since

our major sex organ isn't located inside our vagina.

[One_Life_To_Give]

158. Between the ears for Men and Women

There is quite the variety of material out there. Sitter vids are obviously about pleasuring a woman yet I think it's mostly men that went there. Surprise conception vids are really exploitative I guess, if one actually believed the story was real and not pure fiction enacted for the viewer. Each piece is intended for a certain market segment. Some for women, some for gay women, some for men who like watching gay women.
As people we have a healthy imagination for a wealth of fantasies. Things we would never do in real life but that we might fantasize about. Be it a teacher, movie star, politician or the perhaps more common faceless individual. Assuming we can keep our fantasies as just that fantasies they harm no one, and is considered healthy. It's one thing for a woman to fantasize about strong dark an d handsome forcing her to do something as she is really in control of her fantasy.

[Warren DeMontague]

173. What? What?....What is this organ of what you speak?

[Threedifferentones]

165. Thank you LAS for pointing out the obvious.

Porn is just sex and a camera. But in a patriarchal society women are often demeaned, and so lots of porn degrades women.

[Warren DeMontague]

174. And the answer to bad art is (to create) better art.

Seriously. Unfortunately, too many people have a reflexive impulse to censor everything they don't like.

[Ozymanithrax]

5. Porn is a Capitalist business venture...neither more no less.

Porn is a product made and marketed to specific customer demographics. It is not art. There is nothing high or noble about it. If they can get the most money being respectful they will. If not, then women and men will be degraded in whatever way is best designed to extract money or credit card from wallet.

I agree that off film people have a right to privacy, and so has the SCOTUS. However what is on film is not for the benefit of two people, but designed to do what ever it takes to extract money form a group. Demeaning women, demeaning men, demeaning burrows, horses, power tools, or whatever else incites excitement to get money is what they do.

Now, if you want art, watch "Last Tango in Paris."

[Regret My New Name]

68. You're not taking into account amateur porn. Where does that fall?

I mean real amateur porn that was filmed and most likely put on the internets by the ones involved.

[dionysus]

166. burrows...

:rofl:

[TonyMontana]

6. The first one

It's harmless.

[blondeatlast]

7. Yes. nt

[NYC_SKP]

8. The offensive part of porn to me is the representation of body types...

...that I think can't help but perpetuate ridiculous ideals: fake spherical breasts, little or no body hair, making for a weird combination of over-sexed from the waist up and under-age from the waist down.

And too much make-up.

And dreadful fashion (where garments are involved).

You just can't find good porn these days.

:P

[KittyWampus]

9. Porn is the later while Erotica is the former.

[seabeyond]

10. porn is geared to males. the intent is to demean, degrade, dehumanize women.

for male fantasy of dominence.

the obsession with it today, in all parts of society is conditioning our girls to see themselves as object and worth in sexuality only and our young guys to dehumanize females. it is effecting our youths interaction to one another.

[TonyMontana]

12. I don't know where you get any of those opinions from

Because they're all untrue.

[ibegurpard]

13. what about gay porn?

[Touchdown]

55. It's discrimination against women.

Because there's no women being exploited in it.:crazy:

[Supersedeas]

159. Touche?

[BrentWil]

14. So should the Government ban BDSM?

[seabeyond]

18. ah, if one dares call it what it is, there is immediate projecting of calling for ban.

did i mention or imply anywhere a need for ban or govt interference or involvement.

simply called it what it is

[blondeatlast]

24. The less time the government spends in my bedroom, the more gets done.

By all involved (can't sy they wouldn't enjoy it, though!)

[provis99]

23. how would you explain CFNM porn, or Cougar porn?

Aren't these degrading to the men rather than the women, wherein the men are seen as sexual objects, and the women as dominant? What about sadomasochistic porn, when a dominant, leather-clad women beats or humiliates a naked man?

[left coaster]

32. The majority of porn is what you say it is..

..objectifying and dehumanizing women via that kind of porn does have a negative effect on the psyche of both men and women... anyone who denies this obvious connection is either in denial, or is an idiot.

[niceypoo]

33. Bullshit

The intent is to make money. Women like porn too.

[uncommon]

43. For what it's worth,

I agree with you. But you will not find many who give a fig about the exploitation of women around here. This thread happens every once in awhile, flames brightly, and dies without making any impact.

[Schema Thing]

44. why are the women enjoying it so much?

[mitchum]

50. So, is male gay porn intended to "demean, degrade, dehumanize" men?

[HEyHEY]

113. That's how I feel whenever I'm naked anyway.

[superduperfarleft]

53. I'm in far too good a mood to get in the middle of the porn wars today, but I agree with you. n/t

[woo me with science]

78. LOL!

Well, after years of observing certain groups of victim feminists, I have a very different conclusion.

There are a helluva lot of people with fantasies they dislike admitting in themselves (or seeing in others), so they seek to attribute them to sinister or oppressive outside forces.

People have a hard time accepting that normal human sexual fantasy is endlessly rich and varied, and sometimes even dark.

[Chan790]

84. I'd say that you have to do more than assert such a POV.

Assertions do not make fact, even in the case of oft-repeated claims, and the facts-in-evidence do not rise to the level of proving the assertion. It's not enough to show that most porn is produced and targeted to men, one has to show that the universal-intent-in-creation of most porn is degradation of women. Failing that, the claim is easily dismissed as specious.

Certainly some pornography is made-with-intent to do what you assert, but equally some is made-with-intent towards the precise opposite (the vast majority of explicitly-d/s-fetish pornography is fem-dom of sub-male, not vice-versa; even as the target audience for d/s pornography is usually males.) or upon completely-unrelated other axises. One would be hard pressed to argue that crush-porn (which is utterly vile and disgusting in its' own right certainly) is about the dominance of women or female-dehumanization, its' intent-in-creation is clearly sadism towards other species. Likewise, there are entire categories of fetish-porn that are null to your assertion in terms of power-exchange, for example Looner-porn. Say what one will, I'm not sure what a pornographic film of a man fucking an inflated balloon has anything to do with women at-all.

Generally, blanket-statements are not only absurd but lazy. Certainly it is easier to attack the entirely of pornography than to wade into the specifics of individual works or creators, but doing so does no favors to feminism or female-empowerment or pursuit of post-patriarchal society. One doesn't have to look very hard to find enough specific cases such as "Bangbus", "BackroomCastingCouch" or "The Training of O" (all of which do demean, degrade and dehumanize women with conscious intent) worthy of specific attention rather than relying upon a broad brush.

[Lucian]

116. So, how about gay male porn?

How does that objectify, degrade, and demean women?

[Kalyke]

154. It doesn't.

She was speaking of hetero porn.

90 percent of which dehumanizes women and/or doesn't teach men a thing about how to actually please a woman.

[Lucian]

157. She was talking of all porn.

If she wanted to just say hetero porn, she should have said hetero porn.

And porn isn't about how to please a woman. It's about getting off on, which I have no problem with.

[mkultra]

124. It would be a lie to say that most porn isnt degrading

As a straight male, even i see it. Smacking of asses, and such. Honestly, a lot of porn is about the degradation of women.

I have a theory that it is sourced in the love that men have for the desire of a woman. In other words, nothing turns me on more than a woman who wants to have sex. Her enthusiasm and subsequent enjoyment of the act is erotic.

I think many people who make porn are over sexualized and have extended this idea to a warped model in which the females are so willing they will do whatever the man wants and so excited that they love everything that gets done to them.


Normal porn always feels kind of dark and odd and i think that over consumption of porn by either men or women risks implanting these over sexulized concepts into actual practice.


I do admit that i like porn that seems more natural. Im also dont agree that the hairlessness thing is about underage women.

[Sweet Charming Dem]

133. I'm a woman. I watch porn.

I fail to see how my intent is a male fantasy of dominance.

Oh, and what about gay porn? Or porn made by women?

[ensho]

11. "use it for obvious reasons"

I'd be embarrassed to admit that I have to use porn to come.

and porn uses women.

[Warren DeMontague]

109. I don't "have to" put jalapeno peppers on my chicken burrito

however, I have been known to enjoy the flavor, from time to time.

Lots of people enjoy various things, including various things involving sex.

Lots of women use vibrators to come. Does that mean that every woman who has ever used a vibrator "needs" a vibrator to come? Certainly, similar arguments have been made about the evils of vibrators, for that very reason. Or romance novels.

As for "porn uses women"- what is it about being in front of a porn camera that renders what would otherwise be a consenting adult entrusted with a brain and a decision making process, suddenly an incapacitated victim incapable of making his or her own decisions?

And, as others in the thread have asked, repeatedly - who does gay porn "use"?

[treestar]

15. Probably both

It could be done without degrading women, but since our society often still does, that can be reflected in the porn - as well as in other ways with other things, like TV shows and movies.

[Occulus]

16. Gay porn.

:D

[donheld]

25. The only kind that matters

:D

[H2O Man]

17. Yes

[blondeatlast]

37. Great minds! That was my simple response (#7) as well. nt

[Upton]

19. I think porn is great..

and all the handwringers aside, I will continue to support the industry with my money. It's nobody else's business.

[Dappleganger]

28. Pretty much how I feel.

It's not my cup of tea but I'm not going to judge people in the business or those who watch it. Cheers!

[Arkana]

83. Yeah, and I think any attempt to curtail or regulate it

would be met with almost universal opposition, for a myriad of reasons--not the least of which is that it would violate First Amendment rights.

You don't like porn? Fine, don't watch porn. But don't pretend it's universally degrading to women.

[cliffordu]

20. Amateur, free porn is killing the idiotic let's degrade women with fake boobs

variety.....

The internet is killing the industry.

You can find porn put out by couples that is decidedly NOT exploitative or demeaning.

Unless THEY want it to be.....

I'd suggest Comstock Films for semi-pro production values...

I guess the bottom line (no pun intended) is that if you are a voyeur, there are plenty of willing exhibitionists out there to help you out....

[NYC_SKP]

29. Comstock?

I worked for Comstock.

You callin' me semi-pro?

Well, are ya?

[cliffordu]

59. Your girlfriends all think you're semi-

whatever.....

[NYC_SKP]

63. Yes, true. Semi-

Semi-truck like in terms of torque.

"Peterbuilt", as it were.

:hi:

[cliffordu]

67. Rofl

Ya bastid....

Half track, maybe?????

[Marr]

35. Has the internet really been bad for the porn industry?

It seems to me like porn has become almost mainstream in the last fifteen years. I suspect their old distribution model has suffered, but their audience must surely have grown exponentially. I mean, if they used to enjoy 9 pieces of a 10-slice pie, aren't they now taking 25 pieces of a 50-slice pie, or something along those lines?

[Schema Thing]

40. there is probably more porn from "amateurs" out there than from pros

... nowadays.



I think that was his point.

[FreeState]

57. The traditional porn industry in California is collapsing rapidly

Most of the companies that made the most off of selling non-amateur porn are having a very hard time right now. It's not the shift to Internet delivery that's doing it but the piracy.

[Regret My New Name]

72. I never bought porn...

but I've seen plenty. I'm certain that hurts the traditional porno industry. Then again, I'm not certain if I would be into the "pro" shit enough to buy it anyway...

[Regret My New Name]

73. I'm a creepy bastard...

I realized this after reading the posts I made on this thread.

[Regret My New Name]

69. That's what I think of when I think of porn..

Maybe it's 'cause I don't dig the phony "pro" shit.

[provis99]

21. does the CFNM porn phenomenon degrade men?

CFNM (clothed female, naked man) porn is when naked men are sexually used by fully clothed women. Often, the women make aggressive or snarky comments about the nude men while sexually using them. Does that sort of thing degrade men?

[Warren Stupidity]

27. huh, CFNM - I never knew that existed.

The internets is a strange place.

[Fla_Democrat]

47. Rule 34

:smoke:

[Warren Stupidity]

98. yeah but I mean I didn't know that people did that.

[lumberjack_jeff]

22. The apparent distinction between good and bad is the audience.

Porn = stuff that men like.
Erotica = stuff that women like.

There may be an argument that porn "degrades" (e.g. sets the expectation that the actresses are normal) women in general.

I don't support the porn industry either, although if asked why I refuse to buy porn yet will buy clothing made in Indonesia, it's hard to defend it in terms of relative exploitation of the workers.

[Warren Stupidity]

26. I think it is none of my business.

Some people certainly find it offensive, and some of those people categorize that offensiveness as "degrading to women". What I can't understand is why they watch porn if they find offensive, or why they are offended by something that they are not watching.

[slackmaster]

30. The choices in the Subject line are not mutually exclusive

Question FAIL.

[obxhead]

34. Not all porn is created equally. nt

[Turbineguy]

36. It's about money

That's all.

[Fla_Democrat]

38. Needs more research

I'm, uhm, willing to do that research... think I can get a grant for it? :evilgrin:




:smoke:

[The Straight Story]

39. Your body, your choice

That is the mantra. If someone wants to use it to make porn so be it.

That principle has meaning and it maps to many things. If people want to make porn, that is their business. Period. Who are we to judge? If they want to get an abortion, their body, their choice. If they want to associate and drink with others who smoke, also their choice.

Drawing a line in the sand on some things, like 'your body, your choice' has broad ranging consequences. Either we stand by the principle or we don't.

I do - but then I get labeled a libertarian of course when I apply that same principle to things other people don't like or approve of (which is, of course, an easy way out for people who cannot argue - just label and run).

[uncommon]

41. By and large pornography exists to fill the expectation men have of access to women's bodies.

An expectation which is taught to them from a very young age.

The vast majority is exploitative by its very nature and while I don't think it should be illegal, I do choose not to consume and not to engage in relationships with men who consume it.

[TonyMontana]

48. LOL! Good luck with that

Any man who tells you he doesn't look at porn is lying to you.

[seabeyond]

49. ah... i love the man that has to include all men. there are men that dont, but call them a liar

if it makes you feel better.

so sad

if a woman were to take that position, many men would be all over it.

[TonyMontana]

66. There is no man on this planet who does not watch pornography in some form

Except the ones who live in places where it is illegal (you know, those countries that treat women like slaves), and even then it's probably watched behind closed doors.

Get your head out of the sand. Pornography has existed since humans started walking upright. It's as old as prostitution.

[HEyHEY]

114. I don't watch it

I just don't get anything out of it. As I said before I find it makes sex unappealing.

[mkultra]

127. i dont believe you

[HEyHEY]

129. okay, I have no reponse to that... I don't watch it, that's all there is to it

[mkultra]

135. and never have?

[HEyHEY]

172. not since I was a teenager

And started getting laid myself.

[mkultra]

177. and how old are you now?

and did you like it then?

[mkultra]

126. you wouldnt know would you

if you ever spent time as a man, you would know for sure that the only exceptions are rare and for unusual reasons.

[cliffordu]

86. Bullshit.

I know men who don't look at porn.....

[TonyMontana]

101. How do you know?

Unless you monitor them 24/7, there's no way for you to know that.

[cliffordu]

103. and your worldwide paintbrush speaks for itself...

:eyes:

[TonyMontana]

105. Human nature is human nature

What's next, you're going to tell me you know men who don't masturbate?

[Warren DeMontague]

107. 95% of men masturbate

the other 5% lie about it.

[mkultra]

128. and thats about the same number that watch porn

or have watched it.

[Confusious]

132. I always thought it was the other way around

5% masturbate, the other 95% lie.

[Warren DeMontague]

140. Funny, I never felt compelled to lie about it.

Good God. I mean, High School? :rofl: You know that ad that talks about "if you experience an erection lasting more than 4 hours..." ...try 4 years.

[Kalyke]

155. No - they just lie. Period.

That went right over your head.

[Warren DeMontague]

161. Oh, my.

Well, I guess I owe someone an apology. Or, nothing at all.

[AnArmyVeteran]

167. I admit, I'm an adulterer :(

According to Christine ODonnell I am a fornicating adulterer. She believes masturbators are committing adultery. Oh well, it does say in the bible that if you lust for someone then you should 'pluck out your eye'. If Christians actually practiced the teachings in the Bible there wouldn't be one person in their religion who could see. They would all be blind from gouging their eyes out of their sockets. I wonder why Christians don't practice the teachings of their Bible? In my life I haven't met one truly practicing Christian. Fundamentalists are the worst offenders and don't seem to know very much about the Bible they say they follow.

[Warren DeMontague]

169. I thought about eating a whole bunch of cake, and instantly gained 10 lbs.

Weird.

[AnArmyVeteran]

178. Exactly! If you get sent to hell for thinking it, why not do it!

[AnArmyVeteran]

164. Will the first man who doesn't watch porn please raise your hand, er, ah, well maybe not now :).

[Regret My New Name]

74. I never knew I was supposed to expect that...

I don't known of any normal guys who expect that either. Most of the one I know tend to know that we usually have to work toward winning over lovers.

[joshcryer]

89. Most guys are nervous wrecks who wouldn't know where to begin in the first place.

[Lucian]

117. EVERY man watches porn.

If they say they don't, they're liars.

Looks like you won't be getting into any relationships...

[mkultra]

125. meaning you only date men who lie to you.

[Warren DeMontague]

130. By all means, don't check the shoebox under the old t-shirts in the back of the closet.

Under no circumstances.

[mkultra]

136. Im sure that "relationship rule" is working out to her benefit

Maybe she can add in that she only dates guys that "don't think those jeans make her butt look big" either

[datasuspect]

45. can't talk, 'batin . . .

[DefenseLawyer]

46. At first I was mildly curious, then I became more interested

then I became REALLY interested, then I thought it was a natural expression of human sexuality but then all the sudden I wasn't interested anymore and found it highly sexist and degrading to women, but then after a while...

[mitchum]

51. Nicely done!

[MindPilot]

52. I came to this thread expecting to be engorg...I mean enraged.

But you gave me a good...laugh!

[lumberjack_jeff]

64. +1 n/t

:rofl:

[joshcryer]

88. Heh.

[JCMach1]

54. Are they mutually exclusive?

[old mark]

56. Most of it is anatural expression of human greed. A lot is trash, some is not.

I want you all to view at least 10 hours of online porn this semester - there will be a blue book test before the Thanksgiving break, grades will be returned before Christmas.

Keep your eyes on your own work.



mark

[Rex]

58. Well I just can't bring myself to believe the women in porn really

like getting sperm all over their faces, but maybe I'm wrong. It must be strange to fuck for money.

[Lilith Velkor]

142. Beats spending all day in a gray cubicle

or busting ass waiting tables, I would think.

[Scout]

143. i'd rather work in a cubicle than let strangers, or anyone, come in my face

and slap me with their dick

:eyes:

[Lilith Velkor]

170. To each her own, I guess.

:shrug:

[chaska]

60. Porn has been around for as long as sexuality. It's not going anywhere.

For what it's worth.

[apocalypsehow]

61. Not enough fires already raging in GD for yah, huh?

:eyes:

[Warren DeMontague]

76. It's been a while since we've done this one.

Reminds me of the good old days.

[thelordofhell]

62. Look, what a woman and a man

and another man, and a donkey, a midget, a dildo, a sybian, a whip-chair, a gerbil, another woman, a snake, a cup, a nipple-clamp, a fleshlight, a jungle gym, and 100,000 gallons of lube do in front of a camera is none of my business. I just like to watch.

[WestSeattle2]

108. LOL!!! Here, here!

[USArmyParatrooper]

65. Perhaps it discriminates against MEN?

Man and woman (or possible combination) hump. Both are equal participants. Woman gets paid ten time or more than the man.

Gay male porn stars are the only ones who make anything close to what the women make. Sure there's some stuff that others might find "demeaning", but female 'actrices' have control over what happens. They there "don't" list that is established ahead of time, like don't spit on my coochie, don't kiss me on the mouth, etc.

Some women (and men) actually like being demeaned in their private sexual life. It's that whole DOM/sub thing.

[BrentWil]

90. That is economics....

I think the low pay for guys is a labour issue. Too much drives down price.

[HEyHEY]

115. it's still discrimination

[JI7]

70. how about GAy porn with only men ?

[JI7]

71. how about GAy porn with only men ?

[Warren DeMontague]

75. Consenting adults should be free to watch other consenting adults engaging in consensual adult acts.

Beyond that, I think it's an entirely natural expression of human sexuality, and moreso, I'm not even sure what 'natural' is supposed to mean. It exists in reality, which is nature, and therefore it's "natural".

[elleng]

80. both

[nomorenomore08]

81. Both, and neither.

Ironically, I think a lot of the aspects of porn that people object to come from the puritanical underpinnings of American culture - sex is dirty, therefore women who "enjoy" it must be punished (called names, etc.). A lot of the stuff does present sex in a rather negative light, which I don't think would be so popular in a culture with healthier sexual attitudes.

But on the other hand, I am wary of a lot of the anti-porn arguments, because they seem to come from a censorious - meaning "censorious" in the sense of "restrictive" or "conservative," not necessarily "advocating censorship" - attitude toward sexual depictions in general. And that's an attitude I associate more with the Religious Right.

[Lance_Boyle]

145. Germany and France have healthier sexual attitudes.

German and French porn can be as disturbing a thing as you'll ever see, however. Kit Kat Club, anyone?

[WinkyDink]

82. I think even the ancient Pompeiians knew that answer.

[joshcryer]

87. Thankfully none of the detractors in this thread will ever make the kind of porn I enjoy.

Amateur porn between two consensual adults who really are enjoying one another.

Thankfully there aren't that many old ugly people who are brave enough to turn the camera on themselves, nor would any straight females make a video with a man while simultaneously hating themselves for it. So I never come across such nasty stuff to begin with.

Thank god for the internet and nearly ubiquitous camera technology.

I do not endorse nor enjoy exploitive porn such as those videos that are around where the guy pays a chick to blow him, CA had a big deal with pornographers paying girls to blow guys who had paid secretly behind the scenes, eg, prostitution without the girl even knowing.

[Warren DeMontague]

92. "Well wots wrong with sexy?"

[ulaes]

99. It's degrading to men

cause women expect me to be hung like a rhinoceros, so when I come out with my minuscule schween, they're all disappointed.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

156. Yeah, and TWENTY MINUTES???

Who takes TWENTY MINUTES????

[AnArmyVeteran]

163. Isn't it sexist when women claim porn is degrading?

Just because a man 'penetrates' a woman does that make it degrading to the woman? I believe that's sexist. A male penetrating a woman is strictly biology. A man could say a sex act between a man and a woman is sexist too, but because of a double standard men who say that are laughed at.

I remember when John Wayne Bobbitt had his dick cut off by his wife. Female news anchors around the country had to hold back laughter and they all smiled while reading the story. I saw one female anchor have tears fliw down her face because the story made her laugh uncontrollably. But if a man cut off a woman's breast those same women would be oozing with sympathy and outrage for the victim, and rightfully so. But because of a huge double standard men can be laughed at by women and get away with it. Any man who smiled or laughed at a sex crime against a woman would be immediately fired. But not one female newscaster was fired for laughing at John Wayne Bobbitt's story. The double standard is as alive today as it was in 1994.

I know porn can be degrading, but people can be degraded regardless of their sex. I believe anything that is pleasurable and fun between two people can't be degrading, but others might think what they do is degrading because of their own hangups or preconceived notions about what sex acts are 'appropriate'. Face it, no matter how much we can try to deny it we are still animals with primal instincts.

Btw, this post has nothing to do with exploitation of either sex. I abhor violence, pain or disrespect.

[Warren DeMontague]

175. There is a whole strain of "thought" that says all hetero sex in modern society is inherently rape

and that the act of penetration is in and of itself symbolically oppressive, and as such must be done away with.

The brain behind this particular line of reasoning was clearly mentally ill, yet she is still held up as some kind of visionary by an ever-dwindling group of dedicated anti-sex activists.

[AnArmyVeteran]

179. Sex is a beautiful expression between 2 people, but some always try to make it evil and bad.

If something feels good it must be evil according to a lot of people, especially fundamentalists of any religion.

[Warren DeMontague]

180. The puritannical impulse runs deep in the human animal. I've noticed

that lots of people who think they've overcome indoctrination with religious guilt, seem to transmogrify it into a different form. For instance, I consider myself an Environmentalist- deeply committed to finding renewable means to power our civilization, having clean air, water, etc. But there is an element of the Enviro movement that, really there's no other way to put it- has taken the concept of Western Religion "Original Sin" and merely shifted it over to "man the eco-sinner". We were pure before the "fall", whether that was the development of civilization, the internal combustion engine, modern medicine, what-have-you- and now we are not only doomed, but according to some of the real rays of sunshine (they turn up fairly regularly in some threads here) we all are going to die, and really preferably the sooner the better.

What I find especially interesting is that the element on the "left" that is committed to stomping out free expression, sex, freedom and personal enjoyment is very often the SAME group that wants to order everyone to stop "breeding" and can't wait to breathlessly inform us how doomed -DOOMED!!!- we are as a species.

I think there's a connection, there. It would be interesting to look at it further from a psychoanalytical standpoint.

[d_b]

100. ya ever see the one with rocco

where he's banging that broad from behind while dunking her head into a toilet?

[beam me up scottie]

102. Both.

Wanting to look at pornographic images is natural but some porn is degrading to women. Promote healthy attitudes about sex if you want to make a difference.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

104. "Most pornography is the history of the piston engine." Pauline Kael

[blondeatlast]

106. HEY BRENT--What's YOUR opinion? nt

[Codeine]

110. Every woman I've ever dated has loved porn.

That tells me all I need to know.

[WinkyDink]

134. Sure.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

146. Everytime a girlfriend and I have watched porn together.....

....she was the one who made the suggestion we watch it. Heck, everytime I've had a large group of friends at a party who sat around making fun of porn, it was always a girl who made the suggestion.

[Warren DeMontague]

148. You're obviously lying.

All women are shocked and horrified by films and pictures of those icky things going into other yucky places.

[ismnotwasm]

111. Porn

*is* sexist. It doesn't have to be, but there you go. Once women have political, economic and sexual parity, which I don't see happening anytime soon, the nature of erotica may change. The power structures that impede free expression of sexuality would necessarily shift. The underlying 'dirty sex' themes and the virgin/whore 'dichotomy' would become less arousing, because our view of sex and sexuality is skewed from, among other things, religious dogma--no matter what our current views are. And all major religions, (and major philosophers for that matter) have done plenty of destructive shit talking about women and women's sexuality throughout history.
For instance, Homophobia is a part of this same misogyny. Those who hate Gays hate women, no matter what gender they are, or what they protest to the contrary. Sounds a little harsh I know, but once you take a long view of social history, it holds. Or that whole 'She's a ho' thing just because a woman wants to get casually laid. Can't just go out and do it without a dumbass label.

Possibly we could enjoy another more, a whole lot more, if we just even things out. What's deeply sensual and and incredibly erotic vs merely pornographic seems to be difficult for many people separate out--mostly because they don't bother--but also because people don't challenge gender and sexual 'norms'--they just take what's available. And one of the things readily available is the entire multi billion dollar porn industry.

BDSM folks, at least the ones I know, are mostly decent and interesting, but have a mental quirk or two they work out through sex or power plays. What they do do though, is recognize the power structures rather than pretending they aren't there. I have to respect that, even if I don't quite 'get' it.

Bottom line though, is what you do, is your business.

[HEyHEY]

112. I find porn makes sex look silly and unappealing.

I don't watch it. But, the porn I have seen was usually pretty tame. I really have a problem with simulated rape scenes and shit like that.

[Lucian]

118. Porn is fine.

As long as it's between/among consenting adults, and they all know what risks are involved, it's all good.

[proteus_lives]

119. It can be both.

Just like any other profession can be a positive or negative.

[VOX]

120. U.S. porn has a deep (!) irony: Women are the stars, and they make far more $$$ than men...

A few years ago, The New Yorker ran an article about the adult entertainment industry in the U.S., most of which was, at the time, produced in L.A.'s San Fernando Valley. Regardless how one feels about potential exploitation and/or sexism, the article stressed how women in the industry are the stars and the big earners, light years ahead of their male counterparts -- an odd note of irony.

[Evasporque]

121. Yes....nt

[SidDithers]

122. Depends...

and I'm not talking about diaper porn.

Sid

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

147. Senator Vitter???? Is that you? (n/m)

[deutsey]

123. The only kind of porn that turns me on is when a woman is genuinely

enjoying herself and having an authentic orgasm. But that turns me on in real life, too.

That kind of porn is rare from what I've seen.

[Lance_Boyle]

137. Research shows that male rhesus monkeys will 'pay' to view images of female monkey's genitalia.

That is, male rhesus monkeys will exchange food or other valuable goods for the opportunity to view images of female rhesus monkeys' junk. If that doesn't place porn viewing squarely in the "natural expression" category I don't know what does.

Degrading to women? That's a bunk argument that assumes that women who choose to be involved in the porn industry are somehow deficient of free will, or incapable of exercising it responsibly. It's a 19th century attitude, oddly enough carried into the 21st century by many of those who call themselves "feminist." THAT attitude is degrading to women.

[Warren DeMontague]

138. That is actually a really, really, really fascinating piece of research.

I'm totally serious.

[ismnotwasm]

139. Bullshit

As long as women earn less, bear the burden of child care, have to fight for reproductive rights, and have the sex industry as a viable economic 'choice' simply because of social, sexual and gender inequities, it is exploitative. Women can't 'choose' to be exploited, we're born female, the sex class and that's that. Good old male sexual entitlement.


A lot 19th century porn, interestingly, as underground as it was, was very degrading and violent toward women because women were expected to be virginal. Lots of sadism, rape, kidnapping. I see that kind of porn has made a strong comeback.


An Evolutionary Psychology argument. Jesus, I haven't seen one of those around here in a while. It's the same kind of thinking that put forward the argument that rape was adaptive behavior because Male chimpanzees--much closer relatives-- will occationally use violence and rape a reluctant female. Interestingly enough, not all male chimpanzee's are 'allowed' to have sex in the first place because of social hierarchies. They have to sneak around.

But hey, Chimpanzees make sex toys and female bonobos screw all the time. I rather like the bonobo lifestyle.


How about those female rhesus? They doing any looking at 'junk', or they just out of the sex evaluation picture entirely?

BTW How did male genitalia go from 'the family jewels' to 'junk' Is there a underlying psychology behind THAT?

[Warren DeMontague]

144. So since women are "the sex class", does that mean that they're incapable of consenting to sex

entirely? Or just sex in front of a camera?

Does the entire gender need protective custody, or what? :shrug:

[lumberjack_jeff]

141. If they made a pill for that, men would save a lot of money. n/t

[FourScore]

149. Porn is like a eating a burger from MacDonald's...

It might seem like a good idea at the time, but afterward you feel a little sick.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

160. 99.999% of the time, the stuff I ate from McDonald's didn't make me feel bad at all.

It just didn't give me as much pleasure as a really good meal, that's all.

[FedUpWithIt All]

150. I think it can be either. Not all porn is created equal. n/t

[Kalyke]

151. I find most of it disrespectful.

And it's sad that women think they have to do some of this to make a buck.

That said, I would say a TEENY, TINY percentage of the women in these flicks are enjoying themselves, but studies show most participants have serious financial and/or emotional issues.

[Warren DeMontague]

162. Studies also show that most people who do jobs and get paid for them

do them because they want or need the money.

[Shankapotomus]

168. It's just dumb

Obsession with sex is for amateurs.

[Warren DeMontague]

181. I don't understand this comment.

:shrug:

[Spike89]

171. Is speech a natural expression or degrading?

As so many here have pointed out, the question is shown to be too broad by simply bringing up gay porn.

I think a much better question might be Is most porn produced for men and from a male point of view? Is that overwhelmingly sexist and degrading? I'd submit that because who the audience is (mostly) and the fantasy aspect, the answer will always be that the majority of porn will be somewhat sexist. Degrading is a much less clear line though. I notice two subtle, but very different approaches to this question among the posts here. The first deals with the "reality" of a woman acting out someone else's fantasies for money. This could easily be viewed as exploitation and degrading. The second take deals with the "depiction" where the woman's role can (and does) vary from totally submissive to outlandishly aggressive. That is much more difficult to peg as degrading--it just is.

Basically, you have to distinguish between the industry and the product. I really don't know anything about the industry except from what the industry provides as publicity and what the media titters over. The product itself can really only be judged on a case-by-case (or perhaps genre-by-genre) basis, but even then it can be extremely subjective.