Two - short - years and already down the memory hole

[Solly Mack]

Sources: Top Bush Advisors Approved 'Enhanced Interrogation'

The high-level discussions about these "enhanced interrogation techniques" were so detailed, these sources said, some of the interrogation sessions were almost choreographed -- down to the number of times CIA agents could use a specific tactic.

The advisers were members of the National Security Council's Principals Committee, a select group of senior officials who met frequently to advise President Bush on issues of national security policy.

At the time, the Principals Committee included Vice President Cheney, former National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Secretary of State Colin Powell, as well as CIA Director George Tenet and Attorney General John Ashcroft.

As the national security adviser, Rice chaired the meetings, which took place in the White House Situation Room and were typically attended by most of the principals or their deputies.

National Security Presidential Directive the 'Princpals Committee'.


The NSC/PC shall have as its regular attendees the Secretary of State, the Secretary of the Treasury, the Secretary of Defense, the Chief of Staff to the President, and the Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs (who shall serve as chair).

Secretary of State

Colin Powell (2001-2005)
Condoleezza Rice (2005-present)




The NSC/PC shall meet at the call of the Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs, in consultation with the regular attendees of the NSC/PC. The Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs shall determine the agenda in consultation with the foregoing, and ensure that necessary papers are prepared. When international economic issues are on the agenda of the NSC/PC, the Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs and the Assistant to the President for Economic Policy shall perform these tasks in concert.

Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs

Condoleezza Rice (2001-2005)
Stephen Hadley (2005-present)



Named members of Team Torture

Dick Cheney
Donald Rumsfeld
Colin Powell
George Tenet
Condi Rice
John Ashcroft

Support/defend meeting with Rice or not - just don't claim she isn't every bit as guilty as Bush and Cheney of war crimes - because she IS.


Both Bush and Cheney admitted to having people waterboarded - waterboarding is torture - torture is illegal - a crime against humanity - AND - in the event of war - A WAR CRIME. Rice chaired the meetings where "discussions about these "enhanced interrogation techniques" were so detailed, these sources said, some of the interrogation sessions were almost choreographed -- down to the number of times CIA agents could use a specific tactic."

[Luminous Animal]

1. But... but... but... they were never convicted so they are innocent.

I don't want to add the sarcasm thingy but I probably should.




:sarcasm:

[Solly Mack]

5. You didn't need to add it....but...well...on second thought

:)

[Angry Dragon]

2. I have no problem bringing these people before a court

and letting the chips fall where they may.

Otherwise they are telling you that waterboarding is perfectly legal

[Solly Mack]

6. I don't care where the chips fall either

and you're right - waterboarding/torture - a crime - has been legitimized as a "policy difference"

[tavalon]

38. Yeah, just when did that happen?

There are times when I just wish this giant lumbering mess of an Empire would just fall. Not because I want to inflict the awfulness that will likely come with that on my fellow Americans but because I think we need to stop inflicting our horrifying lack of moral fiber on the rest of the world. We aren't showing ourselves worthy of being on the world stage, much less being one of it's main stars.

[Starry Messenger]

3. k & r

[Solly Mack]

10. Thank you, SM.

[Starry Messenger]

74. I really appreciate this thread.

Glad to see it in the 100+ range for recs. This place is beginning to scare me.

[stray cat]

4. Voters have already put 2000-8 down the memory hole - they are ready to re-elect the GOP

and some dems and independents are going to help do it

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[leftstreet]

7. K&R

[Solly Mack]

12. Thank you, leftstreet

[BeFree]

8. NGU

We should never ever forget.

I'm sure the teabggers are against torture, too. They just have forgotten? Maybe tea makes you forget?

[Solly Mack]

13. I've a real long memory

[G_j]

9. K&R

:cry:

[Solly Mack]

14. Thanks, G_j

It is sad

[EFerrari]

11. K&R

[Solly Mack]

15. Thanks EFerrari!

It's been...unreal

[spanone]

16. i will NEVER understand letting the bu$h* administration get away with torture ..N E V E R

my only hope is that some nation will challenge them somewhere.

[Solly Mack]

17. I'll never forgive it.

[spanone]

19. 'Democrats push for torture inquiry'....from 2009. why did this go nowhere?

Posted by Foon Rhee, deputy national political editor April 22, 2009 06:26 PM

Democrats are seizing on a newly declassified report on harsh interrogations conducted by the military of terror suspects to push for a full inquiry of the Bush administration's use of what critics call torture.

The 232-page report released Tuesday by the Senate Armed Services Committee concluded that the military's use of interrogation tactics -- such as stripping detainees, placing them in stressful body positions, and depriving them of sleep -- were authorized at the top levels of the Bush administration, including Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.

"This exhaustive report offers more evidence of failures within the Bush Administration that allowed officials to set history and the law aside to torture detainees despite evidence such methods don’t work," Senator Sheldon Whitehouse, a Rhode Island Democrat, said in a statement today. “Our country is turning away from this dark moment. But we cannot afford to leave it behind until we fully understand what went wrong, and do what we can to ensure that America never again loses sight of its most sacred principles.

"This report is just one in a number of ongoing efforts to learn the whole truth about the Bush Administration's detention and interrogation program. I am an active participant in the investigation underway in the Senate Intelligence Committee, and I continue to believe that we will eventually need an independent commission of inquiry to provide unassailable recommendations to the nation.”

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/politicalintelligence/2009/04/democrats_push.html

[Solly Mack]

21. That's a good question

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/04/23/senate-leaders-opposes-interrogation-inquiry-panel/


http://www.truth-out.org/042309C

[Autumn]

27. Thank you for that link. I had no idea.

What goes around comes around.

[austin78704]

68. Complete lack of leadership

My primary complaint against Obama since he started.

[Forkboy]

18. K&R

[Solly Mack]

23. Thank you, FB

[Desertrose]

20. ...and another K & R.

[Solly Mack]

24. Thanks, Desertrose

[donco6]

22. You just want to have Pres. Palin's babies.

Er, wait. . .

[Solly Mack]

25. Snicker

[donco6]

26. K&r btw n/t

[Swamp Rat]

28. A lot of things went down the Memory Hole

[Solly Mack]

29. That's for damn sure

[lonestarnot]

63. And never surrender.

:hug:

[pleah]

30. K&R

[Solly Mack]

35. Hey pleah

Thanks

[emilyg]

31. k/r

[Solly Mack]

36. Thank you, emilyg

[lonestarnot]

32. I checked. Mine doesn't have a hole in it.

[Solly Mack]

37. and that's a good thing

[readmoreoften]

33. K&R. What's next? "Infant testicle crusher" John Yoo is our new buddy?

[Solly Mack]

54. Thank you, readmoreoften

[Drops_not_Dope]

39. .

:grr:


:kick:

[midnight]

40. K&R!

[Solly Mack]

53. Thank you, midnight

[Catherina]

41. Rec'd. How can anyone forget or forgive this? n/t

[Solly Mack]

52. I don't know. Anyone that ever brings up how bad the Bush administration was

- for any reason - can't possibly have forgotten.

[Skittles]

42. it's what happens when you demand no accountability

[Solly Mack]

51. Precisely. It allows a bullshit narrative to replace the truth.

[pokercat999]

57. Well sure but......we demand no accountability from this

supposed Democratic admin either. We are still engaged in two wars and trying for the third in Pakistan and/or Iran. We still employ over 100K "contractors", mercenaries in other words, to do our really dirty work. Where's the outrage? Sure the previous admin were war criminals but maybe the reason this admin doesn't do anything about it is they continue too many of the same policies.

Should something be done like the top people in both admins go to jail at least until everyones part is sorted out and innocence can be confirmed, sure, maybe. But we have a bigger problem, at least 30%, maybe as many as half or even more than half of the American population approve of or will at least tolerate these actions. And where can you go from there?

Wait till 2012 and Sarah is our first woman president, you ain't seen nothing yet baby, she will prove beyond any doubt that she has the gonads to be a war president. And the sick American people will eat it up!

For what it's worth that's what I think.

[Soylent Brice]

43. K&R

edit to add: thank you for posting this.

[Solly Mack]

50. Thank you, SB.

You're welcome.

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. And I want to teach history.

Sigh...

If people cannot remember last week how can I expect them to remember 1598?

[Solly Mack]

55. This is more about not pretending

As in - don't pretend Rice didn't do what she very well did do. Enabled, propped up, supported, was complicit in and an accessory to - war crimes.

She got away with it and far too many people want to create a narrative where she - and others involved - didn't commit crimes - they made "mistakes"....

You don't chair a group of people organizing an individualized chart on how to torture people and get to claim you're one of the good guys. You just don't.

[WinkyDink]

89. In high school? Don't. You will not teach "history"; you will teach "concepts."

"War," not "World War II." One small example.

[nadinbrzezinski]

91. College

And what you posted is part of the problem. Why we don't have a historic memory.

[Capitalocracy]

45. I'll never forget.

And I want justice no matter the cost to the system, even if it means putting everyone who was in Congress at the time and half of the CIA and army brass in prison. Impunity leads to more war crimes. History has shown us time and again.

[Solly Mack]

49. I can't forget. My sense of right and wrong won't allow it.

[Scruffy1]

46. I must have been delusional

here I was almost believing that we lived in a fairly democratic republic. Silly me. If nothing else the last election proved that the vote makes no difference. Same taxi, different driver. If we want to reclaim America we've got a lot of work to do and just pulling a lever every couple off years isn't going to do it. A good start would be to turn off your TV set and stop the continual flow of BS that comes through it. We might even have to think instead of getting our opinions from someone paid to plant them there.

I won't be bothered by the dems losing control of the house as its mostly blue dog pukes going down anyway. Good riddance to these clowns. We need real dems not phony Rahm Emanual dems.

[chill_wind]

47. K & R for Solly Mack. There's no DU memory hole

regarding Condi Rice,just a remarkable level of intellectual dishonesty and painful cognitive dissonance for some who would merely prefer that we all forget.

That doesn't work, for very good reasons. We spent eight years talking about what she and her right-wing lying criminal war-mongering cohorts did.

[Solly Mack]

48. And that's the truth

"That doesn't work, for very good reasons. We spent eight years talking about what she and her right-wing lying criminal war-mongering cohorts did."

[suffragette]

92. Great points, chill

[on point]

56. Failure to prosecute, complicity, is also a crime

[Solly Mack]

86. There does indeed exist a legal obligation to prosecute.

UN Rapporteur: Initiate criminal proceedings against Bush and Rumsfeld now



UN official: Enough evidence to prosecute Rumsfeld for war crimes


and to not do so violates international law

Top UN Torture Investigator: Decision Not to Prosecute Violates International Law

[dgibby]

58. The decision to "look forward"

was the moment I realized that this country had lost whatever shred of a moral compass we had. I guess I shouldn't have been surprised, considering our long and sordid history, but I had so hoped we were going to chart a new course. Silly me!

K&R!

[Lost4words]

59. same here,......

[NewJeffCT]

61. Looking forward after Reagan

brought us the neocon crew under Bush 2 that gave us Iraq, torture, etc.

[Solly Mack]

84. Thank you, dgibby

[The Uncola]

60. Silence isn't an option..

.. thank you Solly Mack.

[Solly Mack]

83. Thank you, The Uncola

It really isn't an option. Not for me anyway.

You're welcome.

[Enthusiast]

62. K&R

There is no greater crime than torture. We were the good guys in WWII because our enemies were the bad guys that perpetrated cruelty and torture on the innocents and combatants alike. Allowing these crimes to go unchallenged will change our nation forever. Since these acts our nation has indeed changed for the worse. Now it seems all sort of malfeasance is being overlooked depending entirely on one's connections and political affiliations. Just look what they have done to our country. Changed forever.

[Solly Mack]

82. Thank you, Enthusiast

[n2doc]

64. Thanks for the reminder K and R

So much pressure to forget. So much pressure to "be good soldiers and just shut up and vote and don't make waves"

I am convinced that Reid and several other congressional leaders were co-opted, given enough information about what we were doing that they could easily be indicted should the Bushco folks be investigated. This was done early on in the frenzy of the "war on Terror" so that they could be sworn to silence if they felt like objecting.

[Solly Mack]

81. Thank you, n2doc

You're welcome.

To quote Frank Herbert - "Real boats rock"

[amyrose2712]

65. Mutha F'n KICK AND REC!

[Solly Mack]

80. Thank you, amyrose2712

[felix_numinous]

66. The RW"s propped up world of illusion

can try to create an alternative universe where their crimes against humanity and the planet are denied, but this won't hold forever. We citizens have a memory, and someday hopefully soon, this memory hole will come bursting out into the light. It will happen.

[Solly Mack]

79. I hope so

[Enthusiast]

102. I want this to be true. My fear is

, and I think this is a viable position, that the RW will continue to increase their control over the message until people simply won't be able to climb out of the memory hole. The examples are right before us now. Much of electorate is being swayed by the crazy on the right side because they seldom hear an alternate position. Believe me, TPTB will not allow an unfettered internet to continue because it presents people will new information outside the prescribed illusion. Comcast + NBC = more illusion.

[zeemike]

67. That is why Orwell said.

He who controls that past controls the future, and he that controls the present controls the past.
Once they gained control of the media the control the past and they then can frame it as they wish.
It is like in the book 1984 where Winston Smith remembered that what the chocolate rations was and knew the new rations were less but he sent all references to it down the memory hole and replaced it with statements that said it was an increase.

We are almost completely there....all of our news sources will tell you the same....and soon you come to believe it.

[madrchsod]

that`s why i collect books

[Greyhound]

73. Yes, but which one will you choose to become? n/t

[Solly Mack]

78. and it works just like that

but people have to be willing to go along with it

[Javaman]

69. The nation has been thoroughly reprogramed to react to shiny objects.

all memories are theirs. Our brains are wiped clean with each "news cycle".

Hell, I don't even remember if I had breakfast let alone what I had.

[Solly Mack]

77. People can fight that... if they wanted to

Just have to make the effort to remember. Have to want to remember. Learn to recognize the shiny objects for what they are...

Oh...you had oatmeal for breakfast....I saw it on the news. :)

[Smashcut]

70. She's been Obamatized.

Hence all her misdeeds are wiped clean.

Or so it seems.

[Solly Mack]

99. I am unable to separate Rice from her crimes

so it wouldn't matter to me who she was talking to....she would still be a war criminal.


A frank comment would be: Obama met with a war criminal to talk policy.

Obama met with Rice. Rice is a war criminal. As I said in the OP - people can support it/defend it - but don't abandon all integrity and pretend she wasn't directly involved in the Bush administration's war crimes.


If I wanted to distance Rice from her crimes and in the doing, distance Obama from the association: Obama met with a former cabinet member to talk policy.

The second glosses over Rice's crimes and sounds much better than saying Obama met with a war criminal. However...

I am unable to separate Rice from her crimes - and there is absolutely no reason why I should. She is defined by them and she chose to be defined by them when she committed them. Rice didn't mug someone or break into their house - she was a government official who committed war crimes.

[BlueIris]

103. So the GOP can put her on their ticket in '12.

Despite her ugly professional history, this is who they will choose to legitimize their presidential nominee.

[avaistheone1]

71. K&R

[Solly Mack]

76. Thank you, avaistheone1

[suffragette]

72. K&R

[Solly Mack]

75. Thank you, suffragette

[suffragette]

85. Always appreciate your substantive and accurate posts

that cut through the rhetoric to the real.

You're a DU treasure.

[SHRED]

87. Holder is too busy going after pot smokers

[Solly Mack]

96. When arrested, they should use as a defense that they're smoking in "good faith"

[bleever]

88. I haven't forgotten.

And I won't ever, not after what they did in our names.

[Solly Mack]

95. A person would have to work at forgetting - or never cared at all.

Thank you, bleever.

[ooglymoogly]

90. KR. Not prosecuting war crimes, if for no other reason than

to heal the enormous wounds wrought by the criminality of B and his Neocon administration, is the worst mistake this administration has made; dooming '0' to the category of abject FAIL. That gaping wound, unattended, can only fester into a horror of something unimaginable. The evidence of that coming to pass, is all around us.

Unprosecuted; even further enabled; this evil has reconstituted itself into an even bigger and far more dangerous monster.

[Solly Mack]

98. Thank you, ooglymoogly.

"Unprosecuted; even further enabled; this evil has reconstituted itself into an even bigger and far more dangerous monster."

I agree.

[spanone]

93. K I C K

[G_j]

94. ++

[EFerrari]

97. Kick.

[Bluebear]

100. Obama said we must "look forward". And we lost a country. nt

[Solly Mack]

101. When I look forward I see another Bush-league President getting into office

and knowing exactly what they can get away with (war crimes, abuses of office, violating the Constitution) - and trying to get away with even more...since they won't be prosecuted anyway.

[bobthedrummer]

104. Torture lasts a lifetime-kick