Free Homes for Everyone?

[Junkdrawer]

As I've been saying, there will be legislation (probably passed after the election) that, in effect, legalizes the ForeclosureGate fraud. Why? Because, if you're a banker, the alternative is too horrible to contemplate:

...

"But the REMICs didn't own the notes either, because of a fluke of the ratings agencies: the REMICs had to be "bankruptcy remote," in order to get the precious ratings needed to peddle mortgage-backed Securities to institutional investors.

"So somewhere between the REMICs and MERS, the chain of title was broken.

...

"If for whatever reason any of these signatures is skipped, then the chain of title is said to be broken. Therefore, legally, the mortgage note is no longer valid. That is, the person who took out the mortgage loan to pay for the house no longer owes the loan, because he no longer knows whom to pay.

"To repeat: if the chain of title of the note is broken, then the borrower no longer owes any money on the loan.

"Read that last sentence again, please. Don't worry, I'll wait.

"You read it again? Good: Now you see the can of worms that's opening up.

....

http://www.businessinsider.com/welcome-to-the-subprime-debacle-part-2-2010-10

[stray cat]

1. Only if you bought a house and could not keep up with payments -

[Panaconda]

3. Is shelter a human right

in your opinion?

[billlll]

7. yes and food and hlthcre

And, says UN charter, a job

[intheflow]

51. And non-gender-specific marriage, and labor unions.

If only the UN Charter really was the law of all lands, life would be sweet indeed!

[lumberjack_jeff]

8. Is ownership of that shelter a human right? n/t

[slackmaster]

31. Yes, absolutely; but you don't necessarily have the right...

...to have someone else in particular pay for any specific shelter.

[Panaconda]

35. Does that apply

to children?

[slackmaster]

37. Of course it does

Children are people.

[CommonSensePLZ]

82. You must be kidding.

Children can't get most jobs because of child labor laws rightly saying many jobs are too hard for them, that they ought to be in school etc.

Who should pay for their housing in your world?

[Edweird]

4. Coincidentally, a person that can't afford house payments

is exactly the person that could use a free house.

[spin]

40. Self delete ... reply to wrong poster.

[sabrina 1]

9. You couldn't be more wrong.

Millions of mortgages are in question because the entity created by the Banks known as MERS essentially created their own system, tossing out 200 years of record keeping on homes. Try to understand what has happened. Even if you are up to date with your mortgage, if that mortgage was transferred and recorded by MERS, which millions were, there is a big question as to who actually owns the home.

Of course the banks put out the propaganda that this massive fraud they perpetrated on this country, was the fault of good-for-nothing, lazy Americans, millions of them, and the media, mainly Fox helped 'catapult' their propaganda for them, just as the did with the WMD lies.

This disaster is so much deeper than any one person falling behind on their mortgage payments. In fact that is such a minor part of the problem it is barely worth mentioning at this point.

They WANTED people to default on their mortgages. That is why they refused to even return calls, and many times even returned checks to home owners who were left with no recourse, all planned that way, once the banks decided to grab their property. And now we learn that in millions of cases, the Banks, thanks to the entity they created to facilitate this fraud, MERS, destroyed notes, by-passed the normal record keeping process, forged documents in some cases, faked notarized documents and have caused a problem of massive proportions wherein millions of Americans may have been paying lenders who actually never own their notes.

Please stop minimizing this crime and blaming it on innocent people. That won't work anymore as more and more about what is being called 'the biggest crime in history', is revealed.

[Junkdrawer]

13. A crisis within a crisis within a crisis.....

Huge is an understatement.

And, once again, a perverse set of rewards for destructive behavior is center stage:

Normally foreclosure is a last resort process that hurts the homeowner and the bank. Now, it's a profit center for the bank-as-mortgage-service-institution.

[dixiegrrrrl]

23. Bingo!!!!

And I have one of those lovely MERS mortgages. Just found out.

[sabrina 1]

32. At least you are informed enough to know that dixiegrrrrl. Millions of

people have never even heard of MERS or its problems so don't even know they may be making mortgage payments to someone who is not the legal holder of the note.

If I were you I would try to sort it out, although I don't know how, before Congress decides to try to fix this, naturally covering for those who caused it. They tried last week when they quietly passed that bill which would have legalized the illegal notarizations. They got caught this t time, but that vote was unanimous and they nearly got away with it. And these people are supposed to be working for US.

They KNOW the people have been scammed, and what do they do? If ever anything revealed the collusion between both parties when their mutual overlords call for assistance, that vote did so. Both parties work for the same criminal organization.

I'm sorry your mortgage is a MERS mortgage, but if you ask them for the note and cannot produce it, maybe you should put the mortgage payments in escrow and tell them to let you know when they find out who is entitled to the money?

Good luck sorting it out. My friend who lost her home in January asked for the note and was ignored. She asked because her mortgage was transferred several times and we discovered that on two of those transfers MERS was involved. So, Wells Fargo took her house, but we knew this would blow up sooner or later and she has it on the record that her request for the note was ignored, by the Law Mill and by the judge. Her attorney made the request btw. They were so arrogant they even ignored lawyers' requests. I'm hoping she can get her house back as she never should have lost it in the first place.

Do you know if someone like her, whose home was basically stolen by Wells Fargo, can now put a lien on the house to prevent it from being sold until they figure out who actually holds the note?

[dixiegrrrrl]

39. Your friend and I have the same problem and same question.

Without a lawyer AND a judge who will uphold the law, there is not much we can do.

Joining a class action lawsuit is one option. I find this site helpful to find the lawsuits:

http://classactionlawsuitsinthenews.com/

My problem is I am in a non-judicial state, so they can foreclose in 90 days, no court involved, unless I have a very good lawyer. Looking for one now, to send a "produce the note" letter.
I guess actually I am still in the process of formulating a plan. As you point out, timing is critical. But, as we are still paying the mortgage, my situation is not as urgent as is people who are facing foreclosure.

[sabrina 1]

46. Thank you for the link.

I will definitely send it to her. There is a Rico Suit filed in NY now against the Wells Fargo Lawyer who handled her foreclosure. I should not say 'handled' as no one ever got to speak to him. His name is Steven Baum and while it won't get my friend her house back, it was a vindication to see that his practices were so questionable he may now be out of business.

There was a court involved in this case, but it didn't help much other than to delay the action. The judge received the letter from my friend's attorney which included the request for the note and never even responded. It made me wonder what has become of this country.

Most foreclosures were rushed with people having no proper due process. I just read that 1 in 21 American homes are being foreclosed on this year. Up from 1 in 100 last year. This should have been stopped long ago. It is destroying this country.

In your case, if you are not facing foreclosure, it is likely you will be okay as Congress will have to legitimize ownership for those who have paid in good faith. I would love to see the banks have to pay all the costs of straightening this out. AND I would love to see some prosecutions, as well as a break-up of these huge banks.

But, going by that Senate vote last week that was about to protect the Banks against the people, I don't have much faith that they will do what is right. Unless we make them.

Good luck with your home. The one place people should feel safe. No terrorist could have wreaked such havoc on this country.

[Samantha]

54. The lawsuit filed in Kentucky is filed on behalf of all those

foreclosed in Kentucky, as well as every other state in the Country. It is in the complaint.

Sam

[sabrina 1]

59. Thank you for that information.

I will read the complaint tonight. As I said in my other comment to you, I have been following the case in Florida and was planning on getting to the Kentucky Case as soon as i had time.

Btw, another case was filed in NY against MERS and the Attorney, Steven Baum, who was head of the Law Mill in my friend's case. I must say I felt vindicated when I read that in the paper this week. He is being sued under the RICO law. I dreamed of the day when she would get some justice, but I thought it would take years to stop these criminals. He was hired by several banks, including the one who fore-closed on her, Wells Fargo. No wonder they never answered letters or calls, and returned her checks when she tried to make partial payments while waiting for a meeting with them.

Anyhow, thanks for the information. Off to look for a link to that case.

[Samantha]

86. The complaint names law firms and lawyers as well

fyi. Hope you found it.

Sam

[sabrina 1]

87. I did read part of the complaint and will finish it tonight.

You were right, it does represent people in every state. Thank you for pointing that out. I can't imagine what will happen if they win, but I am hoping they will. Maybe there will be some justice after all. I haven't seen the law firms and lawwyers yet but thanks for pointing that out also.

[Kalyke]

79. How do you find out? eom

[unkachuck]

24. organized crime on a massive scale....n/t

[earth mom]

34. Excellent post! You really summed it all up in a concise way! You should make it an OP!

:thumbsup:

[Samantha]

53. I agree

Additionally, in some settlements NO PROMISSORY NOTE was generated. This was deliberate. Banks passed the mortgages on to MERS because (1) some did not want to pay the fees to the States and the mortgages were not recorded with the Recorder of Deeds; (2) MERS pays no income tax (or corporate tax). The Banks wanted the profits free of tax. But as chartered, MERS cannot own anything and thus has no right to foreclose. None. Nada. They also are not licensed to do business in Kentucky, which is where that class action lawsuit has been filed, on behalf of all foreclosed upon in that State as well as ANY OTHER STATE in the United States. I stated reading that complaint last night, but had to stop at page 21. It is unbelievable.

Oh, yes, and some of the entities which passed on mortgages to MERS are now defunct, and some of the documentation that MERS is acting on their behalf has been recently "manufactured." In those cases, who really does own the mortgage? No one, I think.

Sam

[sabrina 1]

58. It really is unbelievable, isn't it? The Banks with MERS essentially

made their own laws. But Congress KNEW what they were doing. Marcy Kaptur warned her constituents two years ago NOT to leave their homes, because, she said, 'they have no paperwork up there, they don't have the right to foreclose'. Unfortunately with the media turning a blind eye to this crime of the ages, she was a voice in the wilderness, but people DID listen to her and did start investigating their mortgages. My friend did, and that's when we saw that two of the transfers of her morgage were handled by MERS. At that point she requested of the judge that the Bank produce the note. Her request was ignored, but it is on the record. I thank Marcy Kaptur for the huge effort she made to try to stop this. But if she knew, so did everyone else in Congress and they did not help the American people deal with these criminals. In fact, they enabled them as we saw last week when they secretly passed that bill trying to legalize the phony notarization of documents. As one observer of this whole fiasco said 'once this began to explode, the Banks were on the phone to Congress'.

We the people need new representation to deal with this. Congress will pass some legislation which will get the Banks off the hook, telling us we have no choice, and we need to 'look forward'. Sorry, but these crimes are so massive, that if they do that, we will have no doubt that the U.S. Congress no longer works for the American people.

There needs to be arrests, prosecutions, investigations and the banks need to be broken up, or one DUer suggested, Nationalized, as they have been in Iceland.

They cheated the states out of the fees, money badly needed too at this time.

I have not yet read the complaint in the Kentucky case, but do intend to. I spent last night reading the depositions in the Florida case against the Law Mill owned by Attorney David Stern and it really is shocking.

When I calm down, I will post an OP about that case, which is just the first of many to come, but it shows how corrupt the whole scheme was. And how the poor homeowners never stood a chance of negotiating with the Banks, as it was all pre-ordained, they were going to grab land, and do it in any way they could. They ignored and actually changed laws that govern the Real Estate business, and they got away with it for years because we appear to have no functioning government anymore.

The only reason they finally got stopped was because of people like Marcy Kaptur and a few honest judges. And a few Americans who were not going to lie down and take it without a fight. But Congress? I am so disgusted. I remember Michael Moore asking Marcy Kaptur in 'Capitalism, A Love Story', after discussing all this with her 'Do you think there has been a coup'? And she looked back at the Capitol Bldg and said 'Yes, I think I would have to say that'. She knew, they knew, but she could not get support to help the American people. Because I do believe she is right. There has been a coup.

I am going to look up the Kentucky case tonight, better have a glass of wine first! If you get a chance, check out the depositions from the Florida case, it will make you ill. I'd like to know why no one has been arrested yet.

Here is a link to part of the transcript from the Florida case against MERS and David Stern:

EXPLOSIVE DEPOSTION!!!! BUSTED!! DAVID J. STERN “MILL” KNEW THIS ALL ALONG…THIS FORECLOSURE FRAUD!!!

Read it and weep for this country. And this is just a fraction of what has gone on.

[WinkyDink]

71. "There has been a coup." Begun 11/22/63. Finalized 12/2000.

[dixiegrrrrl]

22. No, a broken chain invalidates ALL mortgage contracts.

And lawyers are winning arguments in court over this.
It is a property right issue, and a fraud issue on the homeowner.
This is Wayyyy bigger than "just" a foreclosure problem,
just as the economy blowing up was way bigger than a sub-prime issue.

[Panaconda]

2. K&R

Good find.

That's the reality of it. Agree, nothing will happen until after the election, aside from posturing that is.

[Junkdrawer]

5. The whole article is a Must Read, a good summary of the crisis. n/t

[geckosfeet]

6. Krugman nails it in yesterdays editorial as well

The Mortgage Morass

Really I like the article because 'morass' is only a couple letters off from 'moran'.

[laughingliberal]

55. Krugman nailed it with this:

<snip> True to form, the Obama administration’s response has been to oppose any action that might upset the banks, like a temporary moratorium on foreclosures while some of the issues are resolved. Instead, it is asking the banks, very nicely, to behave better and clean up their act. I mean, that’s worked so well in the past, right?

The response from the right is, however, even worse. Republicans in Congress are lying low, but conservative commentators like those at The Wall Street Journal’s editorial page have come out dismissing the lack of proper documents as a triviality. In effect, they’re saying that if a bank says it owns your house, we should just take its word. To me, this evokes the days when noblemen felt free to take whatever they wanted, knowing that peasants had no standing in the courts. But then, I suspect that some people regard those as the good old days. <snip>

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/15/opinion/15krugman.html?_r=1

[Junkdrawer]

10. BTW: This is the first time I've read that it wasn't just carelessness....

that caused the notes to be "lost": it was a nicety in the whole "These securities are AAA investment vehicles" fraud that did it.

[AmericanMan1958]

11. Another Bail-Out for the Banks,,,

They need to wait until after the 1st of the year for the new Tea-Bagggers, if they get in office.
Then they will have to vote for the absolving of this most hideous moral sin in American history or Watch Our Country Explode. :nuke:

See what they will have to say after they get crap like that on their shoes,

Tea-Baggger's Voting for another Bail-Out!! :evilgrin:

[Yo_Mama]

12. The email in the article is phoney

Whoever wrote the original, if anyone did, is not a knowledgeable financial insider. This, for instance, is just total bullshit:
"Basically, MERS directed defaulting mortgages to the appropriate tranches of mortgage bonds. MERS was essentially where the digitized mortgage notes were sliced and diced and rearranged so as to create the mortgage-backed securities. Think of MERS as Dr. Frankenstein's operating table, where the beast got put together."

MERS has nothing to do with the direction of cash flows to investors. MERS is an a registration system. When a mortgage is sold to a securitizer, the mortgage is transferred to MERS who then keeps track of who has it. The purpose of MERS is to avoid recording say three or four assignments.

Now, if someone needs to foreclose a MERS loan they may have to prove ownership, but generally that isn't very difficult. Sometimes MERS itself will handle the foreclosure (for a fee).

Here's the MERS website.
http://www.mersinc.org/

And here's the homeowner's page.
http://www.mersinc.org/homeowners/index.aspx
So many mortgages are held by MERS that sometimes it is a good resource if you are having trouble due to a servicer change.

Here is the MERS Foreclosure page:
http://www.mersinc.org/Foreclosures/index.aspx
The above link explains more about what happens and how it works.

Believe me, someone owns the note. You just can't stop paying on it and keep the house, or only very rarely. Every once in a while the note really will go missing, or things will get so bollixed that no one might be able to foreclose. I have even once seen a mortgage never get recorded. But that is a very rare circumstance.

[Junkdrawer]

14. Then why were the Forgery-Mills set up? n/t

[sabrina 1]

60. You are kidding, right? Have you been following the lawsuits?

MERS is an entity set up BY the banks. They are being sued in three states now, but who are they??

Documents were forged by that entity, original notes were thrown away, destroyed. Sure someone owns those millions of homes whose ownership is now in question, but no one knows who and that IS a problem as these major lawsuits are demonstrating.

You need to read some of the witness testimony in the depositions being taken in Florida.

For one thing, MERS essentially changed U.S. law on the recording of mortgages and no one did a thing about it, until now. Talk about activist judges, now we have entities set up banks making law!

Quite honestly, I hope a lot of Americans DO get away with a free home. The Banksters have robbed this country of trillions of dollars. I won't mind if a few tax-payers who helped bail them out twice already, get a little something out of this whole mess. A half a million dollar house is chickenfeed to what these criminals have made.

[LooseWilly]

62. You are presenting the MERS website (Presumably a PR site set up by MERS) to refute a news story?

Really? That's like taking a press release from a fraud suspect and using it to refute the prosecution...

Has the possibility that MERS might misrepresent the nature of their services in a positive manner (i.e. spin) not crossed your mind? Do you generally consider the advertisements of corporations to be more reliable than news reports regarding the services/products they provide more reliable?

Do you really believe there was no issue of safety regarding Prius accelerators? Firestone tires? Pinto gas tanks?... MERS title documentation?...

Uhh, and what is with the "Whoever wrote the original, if anyone did, is not a knowledgeable financial insider."? The quote you present ... is not a quote of a quote... you are quoting a paraphrasing of a reporter... so of course it's not the words of "a knowledgeable financial insider"... it's the words of a reporter trying to make the words of a financial insider comprehensible to the public at large.

If there's a quoted quote that you have issue with... i.e. a sourced quote, then please be more explicit in identifying the portion of the sourced quote that you have issue with... else you'll continue to sound like you're not a knowledgeable journalism insider able to understand the subtleties of a news story...

[G_j]

15. K&R

[tridim]

16. Well, now I know why the collection calls stopped when I demanded the note.

I'm now 90% certain my note was lost. We'll see what Chase says.

[Junkdrawer]

17. Lost? or Broken by Necessity?

read this again:

"But the REMICs didn't own the notes either, because of a fluke of the ratings agencies: the REMICs had to be "bankruptcy remote," in order to get the precious ratings needed to peddle mortgage-backed Securities to institutional investors.

"So somewhere between the REMICs and MERS, the chain of title was broken.


Curiouser and Curiouser

[tridim]

18. I've also been reading the WAMU/Chase merger assets were completely fubar'ed

As far as I know my mortgage has been traded as follows:

Local "trusted" lender -> Mystery investor #1 -> Mystery investor #2 -> WAMU -> JP Morgan Chase

Each arrow is a possible clusterfuck point. Good luck foreclosing on me Chase.

[sabrina 1]

77. That's exactly what we discovered with my friend's mortgage.

And MERS was right in the middle of it. No wonder she received no response to her request for the note.

This was last Fall. The lawyer who handled her foreclosure for Wells Fargo, Steven Baum, is now being sued together with MERS, in a RICO suit filed in NY recently.

We KNEW somthing was wrong, and then I started to read articles posted here and on other blogs and was certain that one day she might get her house back. She is hoping to become part of that lawsuit or file one on her own now. The house is still empty. We wondered about that, it was never put up for sale. But now I believe this was all beginning to fall apart and they knew they could no longer sell fraudulently fore-closed on homes.

Good luck with your case. March Kaptur was right, do not move out 'because they do not have the right to foreclose if they do not own the note'.

I hope you get to keep it free and clear as a punishment to the criminals who made so many Americans homeless and brought down the value of other homes, due to their corruption. It's about time the people got something out of all of this.

[Kang Colby]

19. Yes.

IMO, this is an absolute right. Everyone should have access to "free" shelter - no questions asked.

[Swamp Rat]

20. Welcome to DU

:hi:

[Kang Colby]

21. Thanks!

I appreciate the warm welcome Swamp Rat! Your art work is awesome! Are posters available?

[NutmegYankee]

25. It's not going to happen.

There are millions of people with local bank/credit union mortgages that were not sold in the oughts. In addition, there are millions of loans that were issued before MERS and are still in paying status or have been refinanced. The country would erupt in violence if anyone that bought a house in the oughts got the house loan free while everyone before 1998 and after 2008 still had to pay their mortgages.

If you took out a mortgage loan, you WILL have to pay it off or forfeit the asset. I understand that there are a few million homeowners who are losing the homes because of the economy and not reckless purchases. However, there are at least several hundred thousand that did buy recklessly. I realize the gravity of what happened, but the country would not survive the gifting of free houses to several hundred thousand reckless buyers. Blood would run in the streets...

It's not going to happen.

[Junkdrawer]

26. I said a law would be passed in the first paragraph of the OP. Here's the only question:

How many pennies will be put in the fusebox of mortgage law? How much protection will homeowners have from fraud on the bank's part?

[NutmegYankee]

30. Obviously we need to tighten up regulation. Pity that's not going to happen.

I hate to despair, but we are truly fucked if we lose congress.

[tridim]

28. So banks get to break the law over and over with malice?

How is that fair?

I'm one of the millions that bought modestly, paid my mortgage for 8 years, lost my job and am now losing my home. I don't want a free house, but my house isn't selling ONLY because the banks fucked up and scared buyers away, and *I* am getting punished for it.

[NutmegYankee]

29. They should pay dearly.

I'm furious with the banks. But I also know that we cannot just give the houses away. Either loans are forced to be modded to stabilize the system with principal decreases at the banks expense, or courts will have to clear titles and work through who the correct mortgage owner is with many banks taking a hit.

Most homeowners were not irresponsible and are simply in default because of the economy. And you are right - the economy is fucked up because of the banks.

[LooseWilly]

63. Why can't we just give houses away? We give money away in lotteries every week... what's the diff?

Fuck it... "Bank Error in Your Favor: Collect a House"... wasn't that a Community Chest Card in Monopoly?

Saying we "can't" just shows a lack of imagination. Just saying...

[pa28]

33. Agreed. No way the public could cope with such an event.

The "cost" would pale in comparison to the bank bailouts but I believe they would be more accepting of a servicer pocketing mortgage payments for a defunct investor than anybody getting a "free" house. The serf world view has been pretty firmly ingrained at this point.

Also, the OP is quite right here. Just wait for the flurry of fast tracked legislation during the lame duck session.

[girl gone mad]

52. I think you've got it backward.

If our politicians decide that the rule of law doesn't apply to the banks, it only applies to the little people, you are going to see a revolt.

[NutmegYankee]

57. It's not that the rule of law doesn't apply to banks...

The banks need to suffer for their crimes. But handing out free houses and leaving other Americans still paying would embitter quite a lot of people.

[girl gone mad]

78. I don't see it.

The banks engaged in massive fraud in order to collect fees and hoodwink investors through securitization schemes. They fucked up. If some people walk away from this mess not owing the banks money that the banks assumed they were owed, so be it.

[pa28]

85. I hope I've got it backwards.

I think we'll find out during the lame duck session.

[spin]

42. I own my home and have no mortgage ...

I would not be pissed off if someone else lucked out because of the stupidity and incompetence of the banks and lending institutions.

I don't get pissed off when someone wins the lotto either.

You may be right that "blood would run in the streets", but I wouldn't be out there causing it.

[crikkett]

45. hear, hear! n/t

[NutmegYankee]

47. The lotto is fair though.

Anyone who has refinanced or bought a recent mortgage or has owned one for years would still have to pay the mortgage while others get off Scot free and live the good life. It's fundamentally unfair.

Think of the millions who stayed out of the bubble and waited to buy a house. They chose to be responsible and instead will get screwed for that responsibility.

[spin]

48. I have suggested before that if the banks can't prove that they own your ...

mortgage, that the government take it over and you pay the bank.

Under my plan, the bank wouldn't get any money. In the end the government might ave to take over the financial system. We would just trade one batch of crooked, incompetent fools for another.

Of curse, any bank executives that were convicted of committing fraud would serve LONG jail sentences.

[LooseWilly]

65. I didn't have the numbers to buy, but I damned sure would laugh about someone lucking out!

I hate to say it, but you're sounding like a broken record of jealousy mantras... are you so insecure about your homeownership that you would begrudge someone who dumb-lucked into owning a house free and clear because the bank jammed their thumb up their ass in the paperworking?

I mean, you'd begrudge someone who won over the banks on the issue of the fine print?? I'm sorry, but that just seems... not just un-American, but borderline fascist, to me.

When did Americans start rooting for the Banks on the issue of The Fine Print???

[NutmegYankee]

69. Fascist?

I spent years living in a smaller apartment than necessarily to save up to buy a home. After all that saving and sacrifice, yeah, I would be absolutely pissed to see the reckless people who had to have it all now get free homes after helping run the market up in price for the rest of us. At the end of the day, those people agreed on a contract to pay back the mortgage, just like the rest of us.

Perhaps you didn't look at the effect on the rest of us - The mortgage industry would freeze up, causing a catastrophic dive in home values leaving the rest of us underwater and unable to sell. If I needed to move, I wouldn't be able to. If I fell behind on my payments, I'd get foreclosed and pushed out while others could sit back and enjoy their big flat screen TVs with no payment due to the bank screw ups.

Fascist or UnAmerican? Are you fucking kidding me? It is very American to work hard and save for something. Giving the homes away for free would shatter that to many.

I hate the banks also, but I'm not about to destroy the value of houses or keep the economic pain going for years to come. Perhaps the banks should be forced to write down principal and modify the loans by law.

[LooseWilly]

72. So it's all about you huh?

Everyone should do exactly as I did, because I'm double-plus responsible?
All of you who might get a lucky break are just irresponsible "fat-heads" who don't deserve to own a home?
Your irresponsible ways are costing me, despite my being a double-plus responsible double-plus good person...

( "Perhaps you didn't look at the effect on the rest of us - The mortgage industry would freeze up, causing a catastrophic dive in home values leaving the rest of us underwater and unable to sell. If I needed to move, I wouldn't be able to. If I fell behind on my payments, I'd get foreclosed and pushed out while others could sit back and enjoy their big flat screen TVs with no payment due to the bank screw ups. )

Are you going to crusade against all the people who get jobs because of family connections next? After all, they're costing the rest of us all that money that we would be earning in a perfect and nepotism-free world? Or—is that "different"? (In other words, did you get the job that you saved up all that money to buy that home with from a nepotism-connected job, making that not a problem?)

Or, shall we just jump to the "real" problem... all those landlords renting out space through HUD section 8 housing? After all, those "welfare apartment dwellers" are living in the "Cadillacs of apartments" and not paying fair market value out of their own pockets... obviously, they're also contributing to the crumbling prestige of your home-ownership-status, right? I mean... they had nothing to do with the artificial inflation of the value of your home... but they have everything to do with the crash in value—right? It couldn't have anything to do with all those employers who outsource every job that hasn't been bestowed upon a nepotism-connected family member...leaving the public-at-large unable to buy homes, or even rent apartments in many cases... the outsourcing and out-and-out elimination of jobs couldn't have anything to do with the implosion of your home's value—right??

No, it's obviously those who, also, believed that they had managed to save up and get a good enough job to buy... and were reassured of this fact by a predatory lender.

You know what might raise the value of your home?— how about an arson spree?? Burn down every other house in the neighborhood, and I'm sure your house will be worth more. I mean, it's really all about the impact on you, right? So fuck everyone who might've been able to live in any of those houses....

"After all that saving and sacrifice, yeah, I would be absolutely pissed to see the reckless people who had to have it all now get free homes..." well, the obvious answer is to burn the houses down before the reckless people can benefit—right?

[NutmegYankee]

81. You're funny

For the record, I moved over 500 miles from home to take my job which no member of my family was connected with. And yet you accuse me of nepotism in your little rant? And where did you get any of the stuff about welfare? What the hell?

[ms.smiler]

27. There are no free houses, just financial consequences for the banks

who defrauded American homeowners.

[spin]

44. If the bank can't prove it owns the house ...

how about the government taking over the loan?

The owner makes an arrangement with the government to pay for the property. The bank is shit out of luck.

[Tsiyu]

36. talked to my Dad last night

They paid off their home several years ago, on time every month for thirty years. The mortgage was sold and resold = how many times he does not know. When it came time to get the note and have their "mortgage burning ceremony" ( as he calls it) the rep from the mortgage co. claimed they had "lost the mortgage."

They typed him up some form (I have not seen.) Huh? He is worried about the title if and when he decides to sell.

Here, I just decided in 2003 to outright own my shanty and acreage. Have given up many creature comforts to do so, and this place is falling apart, but it's MY "falling apart."

And still, I hope a bunch of Americans get their nice houses free. It would make me smile to think that the greed and laziness and fraud had a happy ending this time.

And imagine how much money would actually go back into the economy when folks are freed from their mortgage payments! It's certain that any income to the banks from foreclosure sales isn't going to ever see the light of this economy's day....

I hope it's Free Houses for Everyone!

About time we used the loopholes to screw them back.

[maryf]

38. Housing for all, mortgages or no...

Universal Declaration of Human Rights...we signed on to this...

Article 25.

* (1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
* (2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.

[spin]

41. Possession is nine-tenths of the law...

Possession is nine-tenths of the law.

Prov. If you actually possess something, you have a stronger legal claim to owning it than someone who merely says it belongs to him or her. Dana may say he owns this house, but we actually live in it, and possession is nine-tenths of the law.
http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/Possession+is+nine-...

[Starry Messenger]

43. k & r

[DirkGently]

49. The Free Mortgage thing is not happening. This statement is false:

"If the chain of title of the note is broken, then the borrower no longer owes any money on the loan."

They can re-establish a lost note with a photocopy. Yes, there are issues of proof as to that as well, but it hasn't proved lethal in many cases so far, and it's not likely to now.


The new news here is about the "robo-signing" slap-dash shortcuts on Affidavits, etc. But no one is just learning that mortgages were chopped up and securitized. And no one has successfully argued that it invalidates a mortgage lien entirely. If someone borrowed money to purchase a house, and signed a Note and a mortgage to secure it, it is extremely unlikely that no one out there anywhere can ever enforce the mortgage.


MERS is a mess, but it's not news to anyone either, and no one has successfully argued that it somehow destroys the enforceability of the mortgage.


That said, asking for proof of the note, and requiring a lender to *honestly* establish its ownership of the debt may be quite effective in slowing a foreclosure. Asking for a complete payment history isn't a bad idea either.

In addition, if you were to catch foreclosure counsel using fraudulent documents, a court might be persuaded to nullify a mortgage as a sanction.

The lenders and financial institutions have screwed things up but good with the tranching and the disguising of risk, overvaluing subprime mortgages, disastrous "pick a payment" products, poor-to-non-existent underwriting, etc.

But some people are getting some very sketchy ideas on how to handle a foreclosure, and imagining that a mortgage is going to go away over these Internet theories could result in very painful disappointment.

Get a lawyer. Examine the paperwork. Demand proper proof. Don't expect a purchase money mortgage to evaporate though. That is not what's going on here.

Editted for speling.

[onethatcares]

50. that makes a lot of sense, but to me

the idea that false notarization was made concerning documents relating to the mortgages trumps anything.

I'm looking at it this way. Suppose I notarize a car title that says you bought a 2000 hummer from joe x. Joe x didn't hold title to said hummer, but I notarized the paperwork without him being present (a no no) anyway and you went on to tag said vehicle. Two years down the line, George Y says he never sold the vehicle to Joe x and sues to get possession of the hummer from you who is unaware the title was clouded.

Question is: how long does it take to sort out notarization fraud on the vehicle and while that investigation is going on, where does the vehicle go?

Does it stay in your hands or do the police impound it and put it in storage? Who pays for storage? What happens to me for notarizing a clouded title?

The banks should be treated the same way.

IMHO

Peace

[DirkGently]

61. Couple of things.

The false notarizations we're talking about are on Assignments of Mortgage and (I think) Affidavits of Amount Due, a document you need to seek Final Judgment in a foreclosure case.

1) In the case of the Affidavits, it's pure convenience / laziness on the part of servicers or law firms. They just can't be bothered to wait for their clients to get the Affidavit signed. Seriously. It's like pulling crocodile teeth to get a large bank to examine, sign, and return anything. And while they're delaying getingt back to their lawyers, they're ALSO screaming bloody murder at those same lawyers to hurry up and foreclose. And the law firms that foreclose fastest get the most business. There are reports and graphs and charts regarding how quickly each firm gets to each "phase" of the foreclosure, and the firms are threatened and penalized by their lender clients for not going fast enough, even if it's the lender's own sloppy / slow paperwork slowing things down. It's nuts.

2) The Assignments of Mortgage are a bit stickier in my opinion. I do wonder if, say, a bankrupt / defunct entity like IndyMac is in the chain of ownership, and there is no Assignment in the file, even one signed "in blank," how one can now be produced. If those are being faked wholesale, I can see a problem.

But note, in your scenario, someone is coming along later and challenging ownership. That's not happening with these mortgages. According to the lenders, everything's hunky dory regarding ownership of the debt, so even if the "proof" is jerry-rigged, for all practical purposes, those faked Assignments still represent the truth -- at least according to the lenders. They're not fighting with each other over who owns what. I know people are saying that the mortgages "can't" be transferred due to the idea that once they're securitized, they can't be put here or there. Haven't seen that argument work as of yet. I also haven't seen two different entities fighting about it. If THAT starts to happen, I think you have a different kettle of fish.

Eddited for speling.

[LooseWilly]

66. Uhh "The false notarizations we're talking about "... you do realize this is a crime?

Why are so many just casually dismissing this? If I were to do it, I'd go to jail.

(http://www.shouselaw.com/forgery.html)

California Penal Code 470 PC prohibits forgery. Simply put, a forgery takes place when you knowingly alter, create, or use a written document, intending to commit a fraud.1 In other words, it's essentially creating a new document for your own benefit and gain.

<snip...>

In California, forgery is a type of fraud that is considered both a "white collar" crime and a theft crime. Although most people think of forgery as simply "signing someone else's name", the offense of forgery is actually much more comprehensive.

Forgery occurs when you intend to commit a fraud and:

<snip...>

A notarized document.

<snip...>

What is "the intent to defraud"?
If you acted with the "intent to defraud", it means you intended to deceive another person or entity for your own benefit at that person or entity's expense. Making false statements or representations or intentionally concealing or suppressing the truth will evidence this type of intent.

However, as previously mentioned, this deception must be aimed at depriving someone else of a legal right or interest in order to benefit you. Simply creating or altering a false document that has no legal significance won't suffice.

<snip...>

California Penal Code 470 forgery is a "wobbler" which means that it may be charged as either a misdemeanor or a felony. If convicted of misdemeanor forgery, you face a maximum county jail sentence of one year. If convicted of a felony, you face a California State Prison sentence of 16 months or two or three years.

Forging a notarized document to aid oneself in collecting on a debt to which an institution does not have a clear and documented possession simply because of a good faith assumption that the institution probably has possession based upon a poorly understood trade... is fraud by my understanding. If the institution has to forge the documents to prove the debt, then the institution has done something wrong and no longer truly owns the debt. The paperwork is part of the debt holder's responsibility, just as payment is the responsibility of the debtor. Failure to maintain the paperwork amounts to forfeiture of the ability to collect on the debt, just as it would if I lost my documentation and then tried to take Chase to small claims court, presided over by Judge Judy. She'd laugh my ass out of court without legitimate documentation.

These banks should be laughed out of court too, without documentation.

In the name of all those who have been cheated by The Fine Print... this needs to be turned on the institutions. If The Fine Print cuts only one way... heh... then we're one step closer to revealing the inherent bullshit of the supposedly equally enforced system.

Bailouts for banks who fail in their responsibilities in the business sphere, followed by more bailouts for banks who fail to maintain even the paperwork that they themselves designed... in order to keep intact their yokes on the public that has had to bail them out, and then be turned out of their homes to bail them out again???

"... so even if the "proof" is jerry-rigged, for all practical purposes, those faked Assignments still represent the truth..." — funny, when I "jerry rig" the truth in court I lose the case... truth be damned... because the truth isn't a matter of existential reality, legally speaking, it is a matter of documentary recording... a "truth" un-documented is no more binding than a wisp of perfume, or a fart. Watch Judge Judy. What is asked for? Documentation... if you're documentation is forged... your ass gets thrown out of court...

When will the banks be treated like citizens, and likewise thrown the fuck out of court when their documentation is forged?

[DirkGently]

70. That's maybe the best basis to challenge the mortgage. Other theories not so much.

I know of at least one case in which a court dismissed a foreclosure action with prejudice as a sanction for bad behavior by foreclosure counsel. Backdating or falsely notarizing documents could fall into this category. Courts have very little tolerance for the attorneys practicing before them lying to them.

My point is as follows:

1) The larger "theory," that there are "millions of 'invalid'" mortgages out there is a huge stretch. Again, you if have a borrower who received the money, used it to purchase a house, and signed a mortgage giving a lien, it's not so easy to "wipe out" a mortgage.

2) The idea that there is a larger, darker reason for the falsified docs, i.e. that "there never was a mortgage," "MERS" destroyed the mortgage, etc. appears to be largely nonsense. These foreclosure firms and servicers simply couldn't be bothered to track down the right ones. But there's no indication they were covering up for the fact that somehow the mortgages never existed in the first place. In the vast majority of cases, they could have produced the correct instruments, had they bothered to do so.

So it's both better and worse than some people are suggesting. On one hand, law firms and servicers were willing to bypass proper notarization procedures, allegely "swap" signature pages from one Affidavit to another, etc., for no more reason than they simply wanted to bash a foreclosure through as quickly as possible ... and then some.

On the other, the various theories as to why all securitized mortgages are invalid are for the most part wild speculation that has not been supported in the courts, and the documents in question can be validly produced.

So again, there's no indication anyone out there is getting their mortgage wiped out.



Edited for colorful detail.

[LooseWilly]

73. You are presenting a reasoned analysis, which I would argue is the lender's side of the story.

On the other hand... I would argue that the failure of lenders, which are by and large huge corporate structures with only self-imposed limitations of resources available to handle the fine points of legally required paperwork... paper work which they, again, have only self-imposed limitations in expertise with regards to handling... I would argue that there is no valid justification for failure to properly handle the paperwork... and, just as the police will stake out a new stop sign in order to hand out tickets for a few days to make sure that word gets out because everyone is suddenly getting tickets... likewise I would argue that a judge should begin quashing the mortgage obligations of home buyers whose lenders couldn't be bothered to maintain proper paperwork despite the virtual limitlessness of their resources... in order to "send a message" to the industry as a whole.

Call it the swing of the pendulum of bailouts... helping out some homeowners rather than only the banks.

And, for fuck's sake, don't anyone waste keystrokes on an argument about irresponsibility on the part of the homebuyers... they usually don't employ a legal department... so I don't expect them to do otherwise than to think optimistically when offered a loan to buy a house... most likely they just figure that if the loan is being offered then the bank must believe they can pay... as opposed to the lenders who obviously just figured they could get the shitty loans off their books before they could implode.

Enough with the bank bailouts... let them deal with the burning bags of shit that they purchased, just like everyone else has to. What's the worst that could happen to the economy? It's not like they're lending anything out anyway...

[DirkGently]

74. Lenders will say they're not at fault , which I wouldn't agree with. I'd love to see them eat

dirt on this, and if they do, it's important we DO NOT bail them out. Let them burn. But don't hold your breath it's going to happen, at least not automatically.

A mandatory path for "mark-to-market" cramdowns would be a great club for state or federals governments to swing. I don't think they will, though. I'd expect to see instead some nominal announcement of "reform" in the system so "this will never happen again" (until the next time). Fines will be paid. Breasts will be beaten. Nothing will change.

In the meantime, people should be cautious in assuming they'll be able to eliminate a mortgage. Defending a foreclosure action is still going to require a lot more than Internet advice.

[lumberjack_jeff]

76. Insightful. n/t

[704wipes]

83. it would be funny if I was the only person with a copy of the note

How much should I charge them for a copy for their files?????
heheh

[GSLevel9]

56. then WHEN will I get my free house? nt

[Generic Other]

64. Try getting your money back at Walmart without a receipt!

Eat it banksters! Everyone with a mortgage payment due should ask to see a copy of their note and have it scrutinized by a lawyer. Some people may have a free house coming to them.

And I should cry tears for banks if this is the case?

[DimplesinMI]

67. The best understanding on this situation............

Is on the link-though.... That is what I did...I read the link above, then read the blog which the writer is speaking about, in their article.

Basically, yes...this is a mess. No, the banks cannot prove who the mortgage holder ready is. Yes, the American Public, who are homeowners need to demand Congress and the President make the banks account for this. Yes, unless the banks learn the HARD LESSON for them (which in this case would be re-negotiation of ALL underwater mortgages to reflect the current market value) they will have a lot of paper but, Americans will have free mortgages.

They better get this straight and do not pull ANYMORE back room deals! The American Mortgage holders (including myself) will be WATCHING.

Here is the link to the BEST BLOG on this mortgage crisis, I have read, to date.

<http://tinyurl.com/2erapnk>

P.S.- If you are a mortgage holder....get ready to be pissed off!! I was........:argh:

[Imagevision]

68. The banks fraudulently foreclosed on (huge number) M$M being instructed NOT to carry story...

[lunatica]

75. The Federal Home Loan Bank of Chicago is suing B of A and others

So the problem is rapidly getting worse

http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20101015/NEWS01/101019921/federal-home-loan-bank-of-chicago-sues-b-of-a-others

[Kalyke]

80. I am not in danger of losing my house - at the moment

(always have to ad that caveat - one never knows when one can lose their jobs these days).

However, I'm interested to know how one would find out if their loan is a MERS loan and if one can legally declare their house is fully in his/her possession - even if they aren't late on the payments - but because the home-liver has his/her documentation and the bank doesn't have any.

[GrantDem]

84. This was posted last Friday

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9326993&mesg_id=9326993