The Democrats and Obama are not perfect

[TonyMontana]

But they're doing a HELL of a job, if you ask me. Think about where things were 2 years ago and compare it with today.

Economy: Recovering
Iraq: Over
Health care reform: Passed

Those are the Big Three. Obama has succeeded in all of them. And he did so in two years. Do you guys realize just how unbelievable that is? Having accomplished any ONE of those three within two years would have been a feat.

People need to take off the hate blinders and see the reality for what it is. Obama and the Democrats have been doing an incredible job so far. Just think how much more can be accomplished if they are given a chance to govern under Obama's leadership for another 6 years.

Think the peace and prosperity of the Clinton years, times 100.

Unless liberals decide to stay home on election day because they're being too damn impatient.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[shraby]

3. You're voting straight R??????

[WonderGrunion]

16. My health insurance through my employer went down $20 a month

And covers way more stuff now than it did last year due to the preventative care measures.

Furthermore, my maximum out-of-pocket cost is significantly less than last year as well.

This election just isn't about you, it is about US. Don't hurt the nearly 50 million of us that are doing better than we were two years ago because you feel let down.

[saracat]

35. I am voting Dem but I am voting about MY concerns. I can't be happy

about the alleged benefits to others when my condition hads been worsened. Sorry.
I gave what little I could to my local Dems and am GOTVing as much as possible but I refuse to be grateful in any manner for actions that adversely affect me.The WH has done nothing to benefit my family and either our job situation or our healthcare. Bush caused this disaster but we are not any better. I hope that we will soon be but it may be too late for some of us .

[LooseWilly]

41. Uhhm, the election isn't just about you either...

even if you have 50 million iterations of yourself (an arbitrary number that I'd love to see supported with a bar graph, or perhaps a pie chart... mmm, pie).

Insurance costs through employers was designed to go down through the "reform"... and you realize, I presume, that that "reduction" will be paid for by mandating that those of us who don't get insurance through our employers, and who can't necessarily afford it at the costs required by private insurers... who won't be facing a "public option" competition... your cost reduction will be underwritten by the presumed extra revenues coming in when we the unwashed & uninsured masses are forced to start buying from the private insurance companies.

The election may not just be about her... but it also isn't just about you. And I hate to break the news to you, but I am not part of the US of which you speak... or else my concerns would be addressed at least a little bit.

I'll vote for whomever I damned well please... and the 50 million of you will just have to drown out my vote... and hope I don't have to turn to stealing from you to get by when policy continues to ignore the ex-independent contractors who get no unemployment insurance and are invisible in the numbers.

[ScreamingMeemie]

62. I still can't afford insurance and won't be able to in 5 years under this "reform"

My father ( a senior) is dealing with an increase of his health insurance premium by $150, as is my mother. Sorry, the 3 of us (and many, many more) cannot be happy for you and the 50 million figments of your imagination. :hi:

[BlueDemKev]

70. Senior Citizen?

If your father is a senior citizen, doesn't he qualify for Medicare?

[ScreamingMeemie]

73. I think you need to realize how Medicare works...

http://questions.medicare.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/2260

You realize the coverage isn't free, correct? You realize supplemental insurance is also necessary for those who need it, correct?

[BlueDemKev]

76. Absolutely it's not free....

...nothing is free, whether it be publicly-provided, privately sold, or privately sold under governmental oversight. No, I don't know a lot about how Medicare works, and I will have to study it further. The bottom line is that health care itself is cost-prohibitive. That will take a very long time to correct, if it can even be done.

[ScreamingMeemie]

78. The bottom line is it's not free and it's not affordable for may

on fixed incomes with pre-existings.

[sabrina 1]

115. Anecdotal stories like yours without anything to back them up

are nice, but this election isn't about you saving $20. a month. And if that's all this bill accomplished, then you're not making a very good case for it.

The truth is most people's premiums have already gone up and will continue to do and most of them will NOT be eligible for any assistance from the government.

Not to mention that the predators to whom this bill gave a massive windfall in tax dollars, have already found ways around the 'good' parts of the bill because it was so flawed, it left huge loopholes for them be able to do so.

Defend the effort if you like, but trying to negate facts is a waste of time as most people have the ability to see them.

[still_one]

18. If you are voting straight R, you're an idiot. I can understand NOT voting, but voting republican

is totally insane.

Perhaps you are not aware, but it was the repuke policy of deregulation, and corporate takeover of the government that brought us to where we are

[saracat]

30. I honestly merant D . I suppose I will never live that down!

I would never vote GOP for any reason!

[still_one]

48. sorry, I should have known that it was a typo /nt

[bkozumplik]

131. I agree

I wanted to not vote this round, but I couldnt bring myself to not register. But I understand the idea that given the chance, the repubs will destroy the place, utterly.

So the choice becomes voting for exactly what we have now, or painful destruction of our system, and the opportunities that are presented from the chaos that ensues.

Sometimes the only way to fix something is to destroy it and rebuild from the ground up. I dont think we have the cahones to do it, and I'm not even positive its a wise choice, but I do understand how some people would choose it.

[treestar]

23. No one insulted liberals

Jesus Christ on a trailer hitch.

So sensitive. Maybe the Republicans will be nicer to you.

No, they'll insult you all right.

[saracat]

33. I hardly think so! I made a typo but the OP was insulting liberals.

And I meant what I said about supporting my local Democrtas and not giving a damn about the WH.

[LooseWilly]

42. Errhmm... - and I quote:

"Unless liberals decide to stay home on election day because they're being too damn impatient."

Last sentence of the OP.

That's not an insult? How about: "Go fuck yourself."- is that an insult? I'm curious to discover where you draw the line... hypothetically, of course.

Please, do enlighten me.

[BlueDemKev]

60. If we liberals stay home on election day....

...we WILL be fucking ourselves. The Democrats aren't perfect, but they're a 1,000-times better than the alternative. Half the pie is better than none at all.

[derby378]

90. Who said we even got half?

We only got crumbs. This vote is to determine if we're only going to get half the pie or none at all.

[BlueDemKev]

95. I can hardly say that's all we got....

...CRUMBS? Are you kidding me? Health insurance reform passed, new financial regulations have been passed, and the economy was saved from Great Depression II. These actions have put our country on the course to a better future--for ourselves, our children, and grandchildren.

Yes, the current job market still sucks and it will for several more years REGARDLESS of who's in power. It is the result of the disastrous de-regulation policies of Bush and the previous Republican-controlled Congress. People borrowed and borrowed, spent more than they had, and bought things they COULD NOT AFFORD. It takes a long time to recover from such a disaster, but hopefully the new financial regulations will help prevent another economic meltdown comparable to the one we suffered two years ago.

[LooseWilly]

105. Mmmm.... yeah, CRUMBS.

A health care mandate? Hell, I could've bought unaffordable health care individually at any point in the last 10 years—but I didn't. You wanna try to guess why? BINGO—because it was unaffordable. Now I'll get a tax penalty to go with it... feels like adding injury to insult to me—thanks for that nifty reform (precisely what Obama said he wouldn't sign during the campaign, I'll remind you).

New financial regulations... that's just swell... so now there's a limit to the fees that can be assessed on the credit cards I don't qualify for. Golly, I think I just got the goosebumps...

Saved the economy from Great Depression II?... that's wonderful for those who were on the right side of the save. I'm without job, and as an ex-independent contractor I also am without unemployment. I was too savvy to go into credit card debt, and instead socked away money... but now that Great Depression II has been averted... the deflation that would've brought prices back down to where I could afford things has been averted... all to save all those who ran up lots of debt.... the upper middle class. The same ones whose health insurance cost increases will be flattened out when the system has the input of my dollars to help cover the costs... whether I can afford to buy or not... whether I deem the product to be something worth my money or not....

So the entire economy has been re-ordered to protect those who "bought things they COULD NOT AFFORD", and those of us who didn't find that the shifts again put everything out of our reach... and in the meantime we're expected to say thanks for that while things that might matter to us, on the left, are ridiculed? EFCA, ending DOMA and DADT, maybe some prosecution of war criminals? Some government transparency? -NOT SO MUCH.

So, bully for you, upper middle class... but you really need to get out of the house, which I'm assuming you own, more... and see what's going on with the rest of us... those CRUMBS aren't doing it for us.

[BlueDemKev]

109. Loose....

...I understand things are very tough right now. Many, many people are hurting right now because of the economic collapse we suffered before Obama was elected. However, it was wild, unchecked borrowing as well as the lack of sufficient regulation of the banking industry which drove the economy off a cliff which has hurt many people....not just those that foolishly ran up debt and bought things they couldn't afford, but people like yourself, who was smart enough NOT to go into debt. The new financial regulations, sadly, cannot undo the damage that has already been done. But it is designed to prevent this type of crap from happening again on a similar magnitude.

"So the entire economy has been re-ordered to protect those who "bought things they COULD NOT AFFORD", and those of us who didn't find that the shifts again put everything out of our reach..."
The government was trying to help heal the overall economy, so they applied aid where the bleeding occured, i.e.--the banks, who couldn't and wouldn't lend $ anymore ( and still won't apparently:eyes: ), and those who were about to be foreclosed on their homes. A foreclosure affects the home values of EVERYONE who lives in the neighborhood or nearby. To fix the economy, we have to fix the source of the problem, not just provide assistance to those who've been hurt by the said source.

Letting the economy plunge into a full-blown depression would not have been beneficial overall. Deflation may result in lower prices, but it also means ASTRONOMICALLY-high unemployment. If you think it's tough for independent contractors to find work right now with official unemployment at 9.6%, imagine what your chances would be if the unemployment rate was 20-25%?

As for health insurance reform....first off, since you are an independent contractor, you knew going into that line of work you would most likely have to acquire an individual health insurance plan (since group coverage is almost invariably given only to full-time, long-term company employees). Is this type of insurance affordable? Right now it may not be, but look back a few years before the recession began and see how much income on average you were able to bring in each year. If you were currently still making that, would you be able to afford a health insurance policy? Today, things are not as good for you because of the bad economy, but remember, under the new law the long-term unemployed will qualify for federal subsidies to help them purchase health insurance. The best part of this new law is that "pre-existing conditions" will be a term of the past come 2014, plus insurance companies can no longer cancel anybody's coverage after they get sick. (And considering that so many conservatives genuinely believe that this health ins. reform law has put us on the road to a single-payer system, perhaps you should take heart ;-) ).

I agree that DADT should be done away with, and I was disappointed that Obama, in a gesture of bipartisanship, decided not to pursue any criminal charges against former Bush officials. Nevertheless, that is behing us and we have to decide what is the best way to move our country forward....I cannot believe for one minute that handing the keys back to the Republicans who not only all-but-created this horrid mess but are now run by a bunch of angry, uninformed, emotional lunatics (aka--the tea-baggers) are the ones who will put this country on the right track. The Democrats have enacted laws these past two years that will help make our country better in the long run.

[Yeshuah Ben Joseph]

67. What's this about a trailer hitch?

That is a most unusual way to pray.

[bkozumplik]

113. its not a choice of repub or dem. be realistic.

Teh repubs wont passing legislation, in any case. We have the veto for the next two years-- and theres no way they will get a veto override majority.
The best the repubs can hope for is gridlock.

The choice is: give our people the rope they need to continue what they are doing, or plunge everything into gridlock, and see what rises from the ashes.

[Zax2me]

24. Voting straight R?

No way to spin that as the right answer to anything.
I'm guessing you aren't really serious about doing it.

[saracat]

31. Actually it was a typo! I meant stright D. I put new nails on and am having trouble typing!

[saracat]

32. For anyone who cares, I am voting stright Democrat! Just a typo folks!

[mkultra]

53. lol.

[BlueDemKev]

61. Well, just make sure you pull the RIGHT lever in the voting booth!

Remember, "D" to move forward, "R" to go back (specifically to the Bush/Cheney policies).

[Incitatus]

34. x

[rasputin1952]

44. Just a heads up...the "R" should have been a "D"....

:hi:

[donheld]

128. Don't ya hate days like this? Love ya anyway

:hi::toast:

[MannyGoldstein]

2. Liberals are not staying home - please stop that meme

It's the other many millions who've seen no relief under the Democrats who are the concern.

[BlueDemKev]

8. I think what he meant was....

...that we can prevent the tea-baggers from taking over Congress so long as we, as Democrats, go out to vote on Nov. 2. The last two years have been difficult, yes, but that's because our country plunged into the worst economic downturn in 75 years just before Obama was elected. Neither he nor the Democratic Congress are miracle workers. The economy is recovering, but it will take a while (probably 4-5 more years) before unemployment is down to 5-6% again. People overspent, recklessly borrowed, and bought homes they could NOT afford and the house of cards finally came crashing down.

Don't let your frustration with the slow recovery or your disappointment with the White House on a few things cause you to make the disastrous mistake of staying home. This is what caused the disaster of '94 and we CANNOT let these tea-bagging fanatics take over the reigns of power.

[MannyGoldstein]

29. Sorry, but only the bankers and other predators recovered

For the rest of us, the economy is hideous and getting worse - the number of employed Americans has been accelerating downwards over the past few months.

Obama embraced crypto-Republicans like Summers and Geithner who have long track records of failing America, and spurned economists like Krugman and Stiglitz who have long track records of being right on the money. When the bankers needed a hand, they got a $12 Trillion credit line in days. When working Americans needed a hand, we get 1/20th of what the bankers got, and distributed using trickle-down policies. So here we are.

Virtually nobody on DU will not get out and vote for Democrats, and it's insulting to be lectured like children for the 300th time that we should vote. The problem is with those who are less engaged: they've been horribly brutalized by the Predator Class, aided and abetted by most of today's elected Democrats, and they're not happy.

[LooseWilly]

43. Uhh, thanks for voicing it so well Manny

Except for a couple of truly progressive Democrats, I'm voting Green and independenter...

I'm not willing to reward asshat behavior and fear lecturing and endorsement of privatization. Laura Wells for governor of CA... sorry Jerry, but charter school privatization ain't flying... and he should've seen it after the lackluster results in Oakland... but the underfunded public schools catering to a woefully problematized public student population probably allows a politician to rationalize all sorts of Bill Gates Giveaways... I wonder if there are enough of us angry assholes voting in this race to make the sort of impact that us angry assholes voting for Nader had.

Will Democratic party strategizers maybe consider the possibility of a cause and effect that involves a realization that taking the left for granted is chancy?... I'll drink myself unconscious rather than hold my breath on that score... but I'm not voting for a non-seriously progressive leaning Democrat again... until the party drops to its knees as a whole and figuratively licks the left's balls.

Fuck 'em all... let the tea baggers take over if need be, I don't give a shit.

[MannyGoldstein]

45. I hope you'll reconsider

I empathize, but in elections that are close, I ask you to consider voting Democratic. Primaries are the place to knock of the DLC swine.

[LooseWilly]

103. I considered, and I considered again.

This seems to be the only way to get through.

The box is already filled it. It's done.

[BlueDemKev]

111. You obviously didn't learn from voting for Nader....

....which in the end, caused the disastrous decade of Cheney & Bush running the country. There is no way the U.S. would NOT be in the horrid mess is today and you MAY ACTUALLY HAVE A JOB RIGHT NOW had Al Gore been in the White House from 2001-2009 enforcing regulations on business. Now, you're saying just let the tea-baggers take over, and you don't give a @$%# ?? There won't be anything LEFT if the tea-baggers take control of this country.

[liberal N proud]

4. Hell yes he is doing a great job

And really so are the rest of the elected Democrats.

Considering they are working against a party that has said it will by no means work with the Democrats or Obama.

Considering they are working against a right wing media/propaganda machine set on destroying them.

Yes, Obama and the Democrats are doing a GREAT job.

Anyone who is bitching about the Democrats right now, should be real happy if the GOP takes over. They will get what they deserve and the rest of us will have to pay the price.


Vote Democrat, I did!

[LWolf]

5. I didn't ask you.

I agree that they are not perfect. I don't agree that they are doing "a hell of a job."

I don't agree that Iraq is "over;" we still have plenty of troops there. That, and the bogus "war on terror" is still bankrupting us in Afghanistan.

I don't agree that the economy is recovering. A net loss of 95,000 jobs in September.

Health care reform wasn't even passed. Health insurance "reform" was passed, and the insurance companies are already passing on the costs; premiums jumped this year in comparison to past years. 30% for me and for my fellow employees. For insurance I can't even afford to use because the deductibles are too high.

Meanwhile, the war on public education and on teachers, on ME, continues. NAFTA and job outsourcing continues. The endless war on terror continues.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with impatience. If we were pointed in the correct direction, to the LEFT, and were taking some steps in that direction, I'd be thrilled. We're not.

I'm not impressed. It has absolutely nothing to do with hate. I don't hate, period.

I also am not going to applaud a neoliberal administration for enacting neoliberal policy.

I'm also not staying home. I voted today, as a matter of fact.

[Panaconda]

6. Oh please

First of all you could not have picked three worst examples of what you consider "a hell of a job."

Economy is in shambles, unemployment going up right with cost of living and number of foreclosures and...

Iraq occupation is not over by any measure though it's been transformed and re-branded. And Afghanistan war rages on...

The health care reform you speak of was a total sellout to insurance companies and it will probably takes years to regain the momentum towards single-payer. The biggest possible failure you could imagine unless you're an advocate for big business.

Oh yeah and the largest military budget in history? Another success by your standards?

The "Big Three?" Did you mean as in Suck Cess Pool?

[BlueDemKev]

11. Let me address your concerns one at a time....

"Economy is in shambles, unemployment going up right with cost of living and number of foreclosures"

This was caused by the predatory-lending practices of Wall St. and the banking industry during the 2000's. The Republican Congress and then-President Bush did nothing to regulate this crap. Only after the Democrats took over Congress in 2007 did some controls finally get put into place. Obama and the current Democratic Congress did NOT cause the economy to collapse and they are doing their best to pull the economy out of the deep hole it's been in.

"Iraq occupation is not over by any measure though it's been transformed and re-branded. And Afghanistan war rages on..."

We still have troops in Iraq, but we are on the way out. Remember, we can't just leave without at least trying to make sure that the new government is somewhat stable there. If we do, we risk allowing the country to plunge into internal revolution which could--God Forbid--result in a radical Islamist regime like the Taliban taking over the country. As for Afghanistan, what, you want the Taliban back in power??? You want the gov't there to fund, house, and hide al-Queda terrorists?? If Bush had kept our military focused on Afghanistan instead of getting distracted in Iraq, we could very well have been done and out of Afghanistan years ago.

"The health care reform you speak of was a total sellout to insurance companies and it will probably takes years to regain the momentum towards single-payer. The biggest possible failure you could imagine unless you're an advocate for big business."

The health insurance reform law was a MARKET-BASED reform law. It preserved the free market system which ensures quality care HOWEVER, it created universal coverage by requiring that everyone carry insurance AND has stopped insurance companies from denying people who have pre-existing conditions or from cancelling someone's existing coverage AFTER they get sick. Yes, insurance rates will go up, but that is largely to offset the cost of covering sick people. Not to defend insurance companies (they're assholes), but the real enemy here is the overall cost of health care itself. Even if we did enact a single-payer gov't run system, medical bills would still have to be paid. So our taxes would have increased instead of our insurance premiums. Look, even if you vehemently disagree with me, ask yourself this....if the health reform law is SO pro-business, why did conservatives fight against it tooth and nail? Many tea-baggers actually predict this law WILL LEAD to a single-payer system, which is exactly what you said you prefer.


"Oh yeah and the largest military budget in history? Another success by your standards?"

What do you want? Our defense forces are stretched thin as it is. Our country DOES need to be protected (and I'm certain that FDR, Harry Truman, John F. Kennedy, and Bill Clinton would all agree with that).

[kratos12]

13. Point about defense spending

One of the reasons that the total defense budget is at record levels is that Obama inisted that the wars be accounted for and paid for in the budget. So while the official levels are up, the real expenditures are less, as the Bushies were paying for the wars off the books.

Just sayin.

[derby378]

94. Sounds like what you're saying is...

...that it created universal coverage by forcing you, me, and darned near every other American to purchase health insurance from the very same companies that made health insurance such a big, expensive mess in the first place.

And forgive me, but wasn't this a Republican idea all along? Forcing people to buy into a scheme that is rigged against them?

[BlueDemKev]

120. No

I am saying that the problem isn't so much the insurance companies, it's the COST OF HEALTH CARE ITSELF. High medical bills means higher insurance premiums. Even if we had created a single-payer government insurance program, the COST OF HEALTH CARE would still have to be paid. Huge tax increases would be necessary and--I'm sorry to say--some rationing of medical care may very well have begun given how much Americans HATE paying taxes (even when they directly benefit from doing so).

This is a market-based health insurance reform. The individual mandate was based on an old blueprint of a GOP alternative to Clinton's health care plan back in '94....funny how the Republicans conveniently forgot all about that in 2009-10. Given that today's Republican Party sees this new law as a path to a single-payer system, you should take heart.

[GreenPartyVoter]

51. +1000

[kratos12]

7. Financially supporting worthy Dem candidates and early voting

straight "D" baby come tommorow.

It is impossible for Government to help everybody all the time, yet it is possible for Government to try to provide a more level playing field, this has always been the Democratic philosophy, while the "Rs" philosophy is essentially "Fuck you, I got mine".

This is the argument in a nutshell, vote accordingly.

[austin78704]

9. False premise

Economy: stagnant at best, possibly sliding back down. Millions without work and losing homes/savings/retirements

Iraq: NOT Over. Over is when we are gone, no more casualties are even possible, and we aren't spending any more debt

Health Care Reform: not care--mandatory insurance, companies are already raising rates and dropping people preemptively. The uninsured remain uninsured. Doctors hate it, too.

Bang-up job, Tony. The insulting tone towards "liberals" is icing.

[kratos12]

10. Huh?

The economy, which by all objective measures is on a more solid footing than it was in late 08 early 09 is the Dems fault? How does a liberal make that claim with a straight face?

Iraq is winding down, It's not fast enough for me either but credit where it's due.

HCR, the sortcomings here aren't as a result of intent, they are the result of a minority party that refused to bargain in good faith.

I'm consistently appalled by liberals who refuse to acknowledge that Obama is not a dictator who can pass whatever he wants via decree.

[austin78704]

14. You're being dishonest

I never said the economy was the fault of the democrats. But it is also not a victory or a solved issue.

I will give credit for Iraq being over once it is actually over. If it is not over yet, then it is not over. It's a pretty straightforward concept.

HCR is a result of piss-poor leadership at all levels. The Democrats clearly wasted that opportunity and I will not forgive them for it. Yup, the repubs were obstructive--that should not have been a surprise. In fact, that was exactly why people were so excited about the filibuster-proof majority. But regardless of HOW it came about, it's still a piece of shit and isn't going to get the job done, which was the original point.

I'm consistently appalled by the gross dishonesty of some posters.

[laughingliberal]

19. +1000 nt

[kratos12]

20. Yeah, I'm the dishonest one.

So you think the Dems could have undone one of the worst economic contractions in US history....in 2 years?

Dishonest my ass.

[austin78704]

26. I also never said that

Here's a straightforward rule: if I didn't say it, I won't take responsibility for saying it. If you assume that is true of all posters here, your writing skills will improve.

No, I don't think the democrats could have reversed one of the worst contractions ever in two years. And they haven't. So I'm not going to give them credit for having done so.

It's against the rules for me to comment directly on your ass or its honesty.

[muffin1]

46. +1,000,000

:yourock:

[ProfessorGAC]

123. I Agree About The Dishonesty Of Some Posters

Unfortunately, i'm even more appalled at the vacuous nature of some of the posts. Your posts come to mind.
GAC

[austin78704]

124. Really?

You're more appalled at harsh language than at lies? Wow.

Tell you what, I'll make you and everyone else around here a deal: I'll be nice when the liars stop lying.

(edit: Oops, I read vacuous as vicious. My bad.

Well, if you don't like vacuous posts, may I direct your attention to the OP?)

[treestar]

25. Well maybe the Republicans will do a good enough job for you

On all of those issues.

[austin78704]

28. Hey, let's analyze that bullshit!

Let's see. I'm unhappy with the democrats for the following reasons:
-the economic problems have not been addressed in a constructive manner
-the war in Iraq is still a war in Iraq
-HCR is crap in its current form because it fails the most basic test of providing goddamned health care
-there are others, but I'll limit it to the topic of this thread

Now, you say "Well maybe the Republicans will do a good enough job for you On all of those issues."

-Are the republicans going to address the economy in a constructive manner? Well, no, of course not. They'll blame unions for wanting pay, immigrants for not wanting pay, the poor for not having jobs, the middle class for not producing jobs, and they'll cut taxes some more. That's a bunch of insane bullshit and one of the things I was hoping the democratic majority would put a stop to. Obviously, if I'm not impressed with the performance of democrats so far I won't be impressed with the republicans. So, on point #1, no, you fail.

-Are the republicans going to stop the Iraq War any faster than the democrats? No, it's a fucking cash cow for them and their buddies. They're also victims of their own rhetoric. You see, they've told their supporters that Iraq is super-duper dangerous without democracy! They wouldn't leave until there is democracy. There won't be any democracy until we've left. So, if left up to republicans, we'll never leave. Besides that, they famously talk about being pro-military while simultaneously ignoring casualties. That's a bunch of insane bullshit and one of the things I was hoping the democratic majority would put a stop to. Obviously, if I'm not impressed with the performance of democrats so far I won't be impressed with the republicans. So, on point #2, no, you fail.

-HCR? Hah! What we've got is what they would pass on their own. That's a bunch of insane bullshit and one of the things I was hoping the democratic majority would put a stop to. Obviously, if I'm not impressed with the performance of democrats so far I won't be impressed with the republicans. So, on point #3, no, you fail.

Strawman harder next time.

[rrneck]

12. Three words can always make me like Obama.

Vice. President. Palin.

[Common Sense Party]

104. You want Obama to replace Biden with Palin?

That would make you happy? That's sick.



:hide:

[rrneck]

127. Just the thought gives me the heebie jeebies. nt

[VMI Dem]

15. I don't want perfect. How about someone that isn't homophobic?

Is that too much to ask?

[BlueDemKev]

22. What are you talking about???

The president is a homophobe??? :wtf:

[VMI Dem]

27. If you think that marriage is strictly between a man and woman, you are a homophobe.

Its quite simple really.

[BlueDemKev]

49. Whatever

Marriage since the beginning of time has virtually always been between one man and one woman. Whether or not it's time to change that is currently under debate. However, given how extremely sensitive this issue is, it would be most pragmatic to continue to work to change the hearts and minds of people before making a legitimate push to change marital laws. (Personally, I think the real stickler is that people are concerned not about gay couples marrying, but about them adopting children). Some states in the U.S. already have legalized gay marriage. If anybody thought that was possible just twenty years ago they would have been considered crazy. Education and patience are what is key to bringing about such a massive social change as same-sex marriage. However, calling someone homophobic because they're not on board (yet) with gay marriage is NOT going to bring about the change you're looking for. In fact, it will only cause the movement to REGRESS.

[VMI Dem]

54. So you think calling someone that opposes interracial marriage a racist is wrong too?

[BlueDemKev]

56. VMI....

....if you follow that line of reasoning, then this means that virtually every human being who has ever walked the earth since the beginning of time has been a homophobe. Civil rights for minorities did not come about overnight. Heck, it took nearly a century to accomplish it. While I don't believe it will take nearly as long for gay rights to take a firm hold (thanks to greater communication technology now available), the key to accomplishing this goal is to educate people on the issue, not call them names. This is a relatively a very new concept, and people by nature have a natural inclination to resist change. Give it time. Having Democrats in control will probably achieve it much faster than having the Republican-Tea Baggers in control. And remember, the president gets to appoint Supreme Court judges (!).

[VMI Dem]

57. Do you think people that oppose interracial marriage are racists or not?

Its a pretty simple question.

[BlueDemKev]

59. What are you trying to accomplish....

...by asking me this? Whether or not I personally believe it's homophobic to oppose the legalization of same-sex marriage isn't going to move us any closer to achieving the higher goal. And if you go around calling people homophobes, whether you believe it's accurate or not, is only going to ensure that same-sex marriage will NEVER come about.

[VMI Dem]

65. There is no personal belief involved with the definition of homophobe.

If a person opposes gay marriage, they are a homophobe. I don't understand what you are arguing here.

[BlueDemKev]

68. Perhaps....

...but even if that's true, I guarantee that if you go around carrying a sign that says "Oppose Gay Marriage?--You're a HOMOPHOBE!" will not bring people to your side, even if you firmly believe the statement is accurate. Tact must be used when trying to persuade people to your point of view on an emotional issue such as this. Don't sink to the tea-baggers' level. Rise above the name-calling.

[derby378]

97. Homophobia = irrational fear of homosexuality and/or homosexuals

Reality check. I support gay marriage, too, but watch the hyperbole.

[VMI Dem]

98. Prejudice against (fear or dislike of) homosexual people and homosexuality.

Watch the justification. Oppose gay marriage = homophobe.

[Bluenorthwest]

101. Explain the rational, non fear based reasons to oppose equality.

Thanks. Because here at my house those who think we are not equal to them are called homophobes or bigots. Would you prefer bigot? What term would you suggest for those who think some should have less rights than others?

[derby378]

102. Can't say that's my forte

I know some will probably advance the biological argument of preservation of the species, but I've seen too many "exceptions to the rule" in nature itself to make such an argument myself. I've never seen any species that ever went endangered because too many of its population exhibited same-sex attraction. They'll do fine. And we'll do fine.

[Bluenorthwest]

86. Your history of marriage is false

Many cultures today and 'since the beginning of time' practice plural marriages, group marriages, that sort of thing. So your excuse is built on a big, giant lie.
Anyone who opposes equality for all is bigoted. Those who pick out a certain minority to have fewer rights are bigoted, using dogmatic religious excuses for their own neurosis. How many wives did Abraham have? Hard to say, as he kept 'concubines' as well, with whom he had children, this is how the world of religion was founded.
To this day, many cultures practice polygamy and monotheism at the same time. Deal with it.

[BlueDemKev]

122. Well, Polygamy....

...is certainly not something I want becoming part of our culture. Besides, it's enough trouble having ONE spouse!

[Ignis]

107. I'm going to guess you've never studied Anthropology.

More's the pity. A little reading might help prevent saying foolish things like your first sentence.

[TonyMontana]

74. Obama doesn't really think that

The American people, by and large, do. That's why he's pandering to them.

But I don't believe for a second that Obama is against gay marriage. He just can't admit it for political reasons.

[VMI Dem]

80. Actually, he is starting to edge into the minority, so there goes that bullshit excuse.

[TonyMontana]

83. He supports civil unions

Which is what the majority supports.

Look, I know it's cowardly and I'd love it if he stood up for this issue, but the sad reality of the situation is there are still too many homophobes out there who will not vote for him if he supports gay marriage.

[VMI Dem]

89. He supports separate but equal. Thats something to be proud of.

Hard to tell what this guy actually believes isn't it?

[TonyMontana]

92. Not really proud of him on that one

But what option does he have? If he comes out in full support of gay marriage, which would be the right thing to do, he would lose the election.

And then the truly homophobic Republicans replace him.

I can't say I blame him for the stance he's taken on this issue. The fault lies mostly with the ignorant, bigoted masses.

[BlueDemKev]

121. That is true...

...which is why the supporters of gay marriage need more time to educate people on the issue and change the public's hearts and minds about same-sex marriage. Then the politicians won't be so afraid to address it.

[muffin1]

47. Duh.

Where have you been?

[asdjrocky]

17. I never expected perfect.

I never asked for perfect. I just don't expect to be ignored and stabbed in the back by a party I've supported since I could vote.

[shaayecanaan]

21. Its not so much a matter of blaming Obama...

but I think that on the whole the performance of the Democrats has been abominable.

The health care reform package was passed, but in heavily watered down form. Essentially everything that the health care industry wanted to keep was retained. The package was a trade off of relatively minor reforms against a requirement that everyone purchase coverage from the health care insurers.

The single biggest gravy train for the pharma industry - the inability of the government to negotiate over drug prices for Medicare - was retained. The public option was scuttled.

The best chance the Dems had to pass their agenda - a 140-day window in which they had a majority in the House, supermajority in the Senate and a president in the White House - came and went without a single major piece of legislation.

Both the White House and Congress walked away from every major fight to be had. I could contrast this with the governments in Canada, the UK and Australia that enacted universal health coverage. The govt in Australia tried to pass Medicare, got blocked in the Senate, went to a double dissolution election on Medicare, still didnt get the numbers in the Senate, held a joint sitting and finally got its bill passed. That's what it takes. If you're not willing to throw yourself on the punji sticks to get the job done then its not going to happen.

Obama said 6 months ago he would rather be a good one-term president than a mediocre two-term one. He came to that realisation about two years too late. As it happens he will probably go down as a mediocre one-term president. The Dems have failed to realise that the third-way/conservative-lite/Bill Clinton strategy works in times of prosperity, but is a losing strategy in times of crisis, when the public is clamouring for action and wants to see decisive leadership.

FDR was one of the only two successful western leaders during the great depression. Mickey Savage of New Zealand was the other, both for the same reason that they were strong leaders that didnt go weak at the knees when the newspapers started baying at them.

Also, while it is part of his persona, Obama's diffident coolness is starting to grate. His sonorous intonations, a half-half mix of professor and preacherman, are probably a bit too aloof for the current political climate. The humility and contrition of an Atlee or the bedside manner of an FDR are probably more what the public is looking for.

All this for what its worth. What will happen in November will happen and the Republicans will struggle in the same way as conservative governments of the last depression did. Hopefully the Democrats will grow a pair next time they form government.

[HuckleB]

36. Yes, Obama is doing a great job!

[Bluebear]

37. "Iraq. Over." (No,)..."Health care reform passed." (What "care"?)

'Obama and the Democrats have been doing an incredible job so far.'

Yes just overwhelming!

[BlueDemKev]

52. Iraq War--ENDING; Health INSURANCE Reform--PASSED

Is that better? Or would you prefer being in Iraq for "maybe another 100 years" and health insurance companies continuing to cancel people's coverage after they get sick? What's the better choice?

[ScreamingMeemie]

66. You do realize that many of us who have gotten sick, cannot even begin

to afford this health care "reform" you speak of. Be real, it's insurance reform. It's an insurance company's wet dream.

[BlueDemKev]

69. It IS Insurance Reform...

...that's what I said--health insurance reform that should have passed and been enacted DECADES AGO. However, we have to start somewhere, and 2010-2014 is better than never. What you are saying is equivalent to saying that child labor laws and OSHA standards won't help a child who was injured before these laws were enacted. No, but they are the REASON those laws were passed! Should we scrap those laws too because they came too late for some?

[ScreamingMeemie]

77. No, this was passed as a "shut up people, we gave you what you want"

measure. So, I guess I'll be grateful that I was able to double my life insurance then, eh? :eyes:

[BlueDemKev]

85. Okay, what would you have done?

How would you solve the health care/health insurance problem? Have the government draft doctors & nurses and force them to provide care at low, fixed income levels?

[derby378]

99. For starters, I wouldn't have let Big Insurance and the GOP write the reform bill

Letting health insurance companies lecture us about improving the quality of healthcare is like taking lessons in dental hygiene from GG Allin.

[BlueDemKev]

106. The GOP Wrote The Health Care Bill??????

Not a single Republican member of Congress in EITHER house voted for the health care bill. The Republican Party made it clear from DAY ONE they would oppose ANY reform bill that was proposed by either the president or the Democratic congressional leaders.

[saracat]

116. Actually they did. It is the one they wanted which is why it was so egregious

they wouldn't vote for it.It was very similar to one they wrote.Laughably, Nixon had a better proposal!
The GOP are the party of NO to the point they won't even support what they want if it is proposed by a "D". I think we should have tried reverse legislation on them! LOL!

[derby378]

133. Love ya, saracat!

:hi:

[Ignis]

108. It would have been nice for our elected officials to follow their published platform.

I know, I have amazingly high standards! :eyes:

[BlueDemKev]

110. Word for word?

...no elected official ever follows their campaign platforms 100%. It's impossible to do.

[Ignis]

112. Giving it the old college try would have been awfully sporting.

Covering All Americans and Providing Real Choices of Affordable Health Insurance Options.

Families and individuals should have the option of keeping the coverage they have or choosing from a wide array of health insurance plans, including many private health insurance options and a public plan. Coverage should be made affordable for all Americans with subsidies provided through tax credits and other means.

-- http://www.democrats.org/a/party/platform.html

But using the bully pulpit to pass progressive legislation is just so hard, dangit! It's much easier to invite the insurance companies in for private meetings on the subject.

[BlueDemKev]

119. Obama did his best to achieve the public option....

...unfortunately, there weren't the votes in Congress to enact it. Plus, supporting the public option meant bringing on strong opposition from the insurance companies, who if you'll recall, destroyed any chance of starting health reform back in '94 with their strong lobbying groups and tons of money.

This new law isn't perfect but it is A BEGINNING. It will be adjusted, fine-tuned, tweaked, expanded, and EVOLVED in the years ahead. But Thank God for Obama and the Democratic Congress, we have finally begun to reform our health care system. For that reason alone, they have earned my vote.

[Ignis]

125. I don't believe that was his best effort, nor the most effective use of the bully pulpit.

YMMV. :hi:

[BlueDemKev]

130. I disagree....he did all he possibly could

President Obama spent every ounce of his political capital on getting health insurance reform passed. He tried and tried to persuade members of Congress to include the public option, and if you'll recall, the House version of the bill (passed 11/7/09) did include a public option. However, the Senate, in which we needed 60 votes to pass anything, wouldn't go along. Despite the fact the Democrats held 60 seats, we needed every single Democratic senator to back the public option....that just wasn't going to happen. Many Democrats come from rural and/or southern, conservative-leaning states (like Harry Reid, Ben Nelson, Kay Hagan, Bob Casey, etc.) and it just wasn't possible to get a public option approved by the Senate--THIS time. Making the public option a deal-breaker would have killed any hope for any type of a reform bill to Obama's desk....and his presidency very likely would have been effectively over.

However, I'm certain in the years ahead if insurance premiums continue to escalate, you will see some sort of government-sponsored insurance plan come about. The important point here is that the Patient Protection & Affordable Care Act, while far from perfect, has laid the groundwork for further reform in the health insurance industry. Who knows, maybe we'll even have single-payer one day in our lifetime! Had we passed health reform back in '94, who knows where we'd be today? Take heart, we are moving in the right direction.

[Ignis]

135. "Every ounce of his political capital," ...Really?

I don't think hyperbole helps your argument here, but follow your bliss. :hi:

[ScreamingMeemie]

63. Heck of a job even...

:(

[Swamp Rat]

38. Stop making Obama look bad by defending him.

:dunce:

[VMI Dem]

39. ...

:toast:

[Imagevision]

40. The Democrats, Obama and the New World Order are not perfect...

[BlueDemKev]

50. What is the "New World Order"?

...other than some paranoid rhetotic spit out by the likes of Alex Jones and other whack-jobs?

[mkultra]

55. he saved us from a depression with quick action

That alone is a enough for me.

[BlueDemKev]

58. Amen to that

Saved us from the 2nd Great Depression, New Financial Regulations for Wall St., Health Insurance Reform, & America is once again respected in the world.

That's a heck of a lot to accomplish in less than 21 months. Does anybody here want to go back to the shitty policies we had from 2000-2006?

Vote Democratic!:dem:

[ScreamingMeemie]

64. Rephrase that to "some of us" and I might agree with you...

...otherwise, I can't jump on that bandwagon. :hi:

[BlueDemKev]

71. How about "the country"?

Obama saved THE COUNTRY (as a whole) from falling into the 2nd Great Depression. Of course not every single person was relieved of their troubles, but FDR's New Deal policies didn't pull everyone out of Hoovervilles, either. The point is, had it not been for Obama's stimulus, things would probably be MUCH WORSE than they are. Instead of 9.6% official unemployment, we'd have 15-20% official unemployment.

[mkultra]

84. UE got to 25% during the great depression

So it not only could have but WOULD have been much worse. A simple look at GDP after stimulus was passed should explain everything.

[mkultra]

72. nope, your included too. every American was spared another depression

you may be in the 9.6% unemployed, but your chances are better because of his policies. recessions suck, he made it suck much less.

[ScreamingMeemie]

75. Nope, I'm in the millions who will lose everything if they get sick

due to a preexisting condition. Sorry, not jumping on your little less suck wagon there. It pretty much has been more of the same. In fact, it has a shivering deja vu quality of the whole Bush "it's better because we said so so suck it up" mentality. And to see my fellow liberals swallow it makes me want to vomit.

[BlueDemKev]

79. How can it not be better?

In 2014, the term "pre-existing condition" will be obsolete. No insurance company will be able to turn you or anybody else down because they happen to be sick. How is this NOT better?

[mkultra]

81. yeah, i guess you didnt hear, but that wont be an issue for you soon.

even so, your clealry jumping complaints from the economy to health care. Doesn't change the fact that you where saved from a depression. you dont have to get on the "less suck" wagon, but you shoudl get off the "more suck" wagon because its patently false.

[tilsammans]

82. I'm disappointed in Obama and the Dems, but . . .

. . . I'll be damned if I go along with letting the Rs get back into power. Because once they're back, they're back forever.

And we're all done for. :grr:

[derby378]

87. Economy: Still sluggish Iraq: Still there HCR: Still waiting

Maybe you haven't been keeping up on current events, but we're still in a heap of trouble. Your "Big Three" remain unfulfilled.

[mkultra]

91. Economy: BUSH Iraq:BUSH HCR: congress. Obama: working hard

i guess you forgot how we got here and how deep in we where. No wonder America is so fucked up, its full or idiots.

[derby378]

93. Maybe you forgot...

...that while Bush is to blame for starting a lot of this, Obama's in office now, and we want him to end the Bush legacy.

[mkultra]

100. yup, magic wand syndrome

Welcome to reality, if we ever get this deep in again, it will take a while to crawl back out.

[Skittles]

126. don't you know, derby?

the magic wand takes YEARS AND YEARS! Maybe NEVER!

[mkultra]

129. because anything beyond instant is forever

lol

[Skittles]

132. no

half-assed attempts or nothing = FOREVER

[mkultra]

134. so anything less than perfect = nothing

[Skittles]

136. no

anything less than what you CAN do = SUCKS

[Ishoutandscream2]

88. Well, I will vote Democratic, but I have to quibble

Especially with "Think the peace and prosperity of the Clinton years, times 100." Not even close, at least not yet. I will give the president some credit, though, because he inherited a far greater mess than Clinton.

[Bluenorthwest]

96. I see lots of 'moderates' whining that they will not support

all of our Democratic candidates, because the favor third Party former Republicans such as Crist. They are far, far from liberals, and all the liberals I know are voting for our Democrats. Your premise, just like the OP and the traditional Puritan marriage screed upthread, is false.

[barb162]

114. "Think the peace and prosperity of the Clinton years, times 100."

We'll be lucky to get back to that times 1. Look at the unemployment and foreclosure numbers. Obama has to stop the jungle capitalism going on in this country and we have to stop buying from China. There's too many forces out there that will not allow that to happen. The economy is NOT recovering, IMHO, for the average Joe. Obama was left with a terrible mess, but it's a mess too gargantuan to clean up when a country is basically bankrupt.

[Evasporque]

117. But Republicans have perfect hair...and perfect morality....nt

[Kweli4Real]

118. You forgot ...

Financial Reform, including the Consumer Protection thingy being established by Warren.