Are americans in general allergic to hIstory?

[nadinbrzezinski]

Yes.

Prefer myths?

Absolutely. And that continues here.

Me back go work on
US History of labor, cognizant that chances are lit will not sell. Forward looking nations (which is bullshit) don't care about the real past, only myths, and are condemned to repeat it.

Enjoy them myths, they are fun, and far from really helping understand why things are the way they are.

That goes for significant questions as to why regions are the way they are, or why myths, see thanksgiving, are just that myths.

But this site do 't care, most Americans don't care. So better concentrate on the balloon boy of the day. That goes well.

[HopeHoops]

1. Hell, most can't even remember how fucked up things were 2 years ago because of the shrub!!!

They think Reagan was a god of some kind, despite the fact that they would railroad him as a fucking liberal today. Republicans in general are just plain ignorant dumbfucks. The ones who aren't are the ones exploiting the dumbfucks. You can't fix stupid.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. It is not Republicans

It is not democrats, it is not independents. It is a national trait. No party affiliation whatsoever.

And part of creating your future image, your legacy, is to carefully craft what you did. And Americans buy myth. Far better than actually critically asking why?

But this is not about party...not one iota.

[HopeHoops]

5. Well, you are on to something - half of American's don't bother to vote.

But I still contend that the Republican party thrives on fear and ignorance. Undermining education has been a long-time goal with gains made by using the fear of "TAXES". FOX wouldn't exist if so many people weren't fucking stupid, and you can't deny that the vast majority of people who watch FOX are Republicans.

Sure, knowledge of history is an endangered art in this country, and failure to grasp it results in a destiny of repetition (paraphrased quote). My grandfather fought in WW-II. We conquered an enemy, but not a problem. Fascism is alive and well and it is because of a failure to recognize the historical similarities. Fear is a powerful tool in the hands of those with the power to manipulate it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. This is again not related to party

Americans are provincial and proud of being ignorant.

[LooseWilly]

9. Mmm... I think you're still trying to partisan-ize it more than intended.

"Undermining education has been a long-time goal with gains made by using the fear of "TAXES"." -Uhh, that's Obama & Arne Duncan's policy just as much as it was shrubby's... might be worth the effort to question the myth that there's a difference between the parties on that policy... and if there's a difference, what is it? NCLB is still very much in place. Privatization & charter schools are being pushed even harder (& with less resistance now... as if the policy had changed rather than the pushers). Tying teacher pay to test scores is still very much on everyone's lips (despite the fact that the students are explicitly told that those tests will have no bearing on them whatsoever... which translates into kid-speak as "fuck off time").

So, what's the difference? Is it just FOX?

[HopeHoops]

12. Actually, it is much simpler than that - Democratic politicians are wimps.

They really are. Their goals are admirable and far better than the alternative, but when it comes to doing things, most of them run to the polls to see what's going to be a popular decision rather than voting the way they feel. It is sad and upsetting, but I'd rather have wimps than mean assholes.

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. Again this has little to do with party

And goes oh to Jacksonian America.

We are just provintial, ignoring and damn proud of it, period.

[HopeHoops]

32. I just had a laugh after reading your post, and no, it wasn't because your post was stupid or such.

This scene just immediately came to mind (from "Blazing Saddles"):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHJbSvidohg&feature=related

:hi:

[Caliman73]

55. You are correct, but this happens everywhere.

Americans because of our recent dominance in world issues, tend to push our mythology out there. Yes, we like to believe the rosiest picture of our nation's history. It is common though. Many nations appraise themselves and their history much higher than it is.

Americans are still the new kids on the block. We are like the "new rich" who like to flaunt their wealth garishly. We have also had a very long standing feud with intellectualism. Many of us aren't too keen on learning.

[Warpy]

3. Why would they be? Consider how it's taught

Most only get high school history, maybe a survey course in world history in college, all of which is a collection of feel good jingoism dedicated toward producing patriotic and obedient workers. There is little basis in fact and absolutely no relevance to the class in which they were born.

If they'd set out to discourage people from being curious about the past, they couldn't have done a better job of it than the high school history text and the freshman survey course.

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. My freshman course had plenty of New History

Both of them in fact.

That was 20 years ago.

Started writing my classes that will give voice to people like Eugene Debs, plenty of new history once again.

I suspect it is a national trait, serious.

[Gaedel]

10. Survey course in World History

Plato to NATO.

[zipplewrath]

6. The purpose of teaching

Let's be honest. It's very hard to "study" history. It would require first "studying" the culture of the time and location being studied. How do you study medieval England without understanding the culture of the day. To study the history of a country as large and diverse as the US would require the study of the peoples of many lands. It could never be meaningfully accomplished at the high school, or even collegiate level for any one but the most dedicated history majors.

So what are we teaching? Parables. One begins to understand the use of parables by the bible, and really all manner of myths and legends, for the teaching of morals and cultural understanding. We take events of history, and recast them into parables to teach larger lessons about our culture, In a country which has a contentious issue with religion, history becomes a useful substitute for the moral and ethical lessons we wish to teach.

I was struck at one point how few people at the church which I was attending seemed to even know the theology of the church. Even stranger, much of what they did know, they didn't agree. And stranger yet was a certain group of attendees, often quite active within the larger church structure, that didn't even have "faith". So what the heck were they doing there?

They had kids. And church was a very convenient structure in which to teach basic moral principals. Many would often stop once the kids were 13 or so ( I suspect that on some level the kids were beginning not to buy the whole thing and were putting it in some tooth fairy/Santa Clause category). We send our kids to school, and much of society expects that school to do much the same thing, teach some basic, common values and knowledge that will incorporate their children into the same culture that the parents were raised. Heck, the vast majority of school, short of post secondary, is structured merely around "learn what I know". Independent learning or thinking is not particularly the goal.

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. Riddle me this then

Why is it that a kid in Europe, in general, understands it better?

I doubt it is because they are more intelligent.

[sufrommich]

16. Do European kids do better in history than American kids? nt

[zipplewrath]

17. Depends upon what you mean

US kids have about 200 years of "history" to learn. Many European countries have to figure out when to even "start". My understanding is that there is a fair amount of religiously biased history taught in various countries. And talk to the French about Napolean and then talk to the British and see who you think was taught "better".

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. Yes, but the culture also places a value on it

[zipplewrath]

20. "it"?

I wouldn't be surprised to find out that a european has a better general understanding of certain periods of US history. However, their understanding of their OWN history might be a tad different. The history the Japanese receive about their own country differs greatly from much of what the rest of the world is taught.

We played a game in college with a bunch of foreign exchange students. It was the "americans against the world". We made up the games. One was to draw "free hand" a map of the US. Neither side did great, but the foreign team had some bad relative sizes, and the US team had some really bad geography. There was the "name the states" game, in which the US team couldn't name all the states, but the foreign team named 57 of them. (the states of Chicago, and Pittsburgh among them). Name the presidents was equally as revealing. The americans couldn't begin to name all of them, but the foreign team didn't really do any better, and named alot of folks that weren't ever president.

Knowledge of another countries history will often hold 2 characteristics. Outsiders will tend to get to miss alot of the cultural bias that citizens get taught. But their understanding of the significance of much of the information will be lost. i.e. they will tend to memorize well, and accurately, but it has little context in any cultural sense.

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. I am willing to bet they did better

With their own.

We played the same game.

[zipplewrath]

25. Who "won"?

I mean, what were the characteristics of their answers?

I tend to find that europeans are very aware of their own history, at least over some specific time frame, usually about the last 100 years or so. It is often quite culturally "biased" however. Like I say, ask a Brit or a German about Napoleon, then ask a frenchman. However, as they get further away from their own country, that changes rapidly. It really is similar for a US citizen. It's a big country and they tend to know more history associated with their area, than the country at large. NY and New England gets a different exposure than the deep south. And Texas teaches a history all their own. California, for a large variety of reasons, probably teachs more "international" history than much of the rest of the US. As a result, I sense a lessening of some of the "bad" history that alot of us might point to.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. We are not aware of that much

Go shhead and ask the aveage American about PATCO. That is the point.

[zipplewrath]

29. Flip side

Ask a frenchman about the Treaty of Versailles, or a german about the rise of the Nazi party. Ask the Italians about the Emmigration of Italians to the US. PATCO is a fairly recent bit of history that may or may not last long into the future. Truth is, I tend to find the teaching of "recent" history to be a tad more "real" than colonial era teaching.

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. I am betting they KNOW about versaille

As to recent history, patterns that are present were formed in that distant and ignored past, A few of those cultural attitudes precede the colony.

It is called the Longe Duree, and we Americans are not that bloody special or unique for that matter.

[spin]

13. Most Christians don't realize that there are two stories of creation ...

in the first two chapters of Genesis. In the first story men and women were created last. In the second story Adam was created before plants and animals and Eve was created last from Adam's rib.

[Ozymanithrax]

11. The majority of Americans place no value in history...

We are the nation of "This is the first day of the rest of your life." A small percentage of people remain in the towns and states their parents lived in. It is not uncommon for people to move many times in their lives from place to place. Because individuals are rootless, it is not surprising to find that history has no value. So I would not say alergic, only that we place no value in history. We throw away worthless things.

[spin]

14. In other words most Americans are fools ...

"History repeats itself because no one was listening the first time."
Anonymous

[Ozymanithrax]

18. No, I would not say that.

Historylessness is part of our culture. By myth, we are the people that came from every nation and entered the melting pot and created something new. So, for most of us, it takes about 3 generations to forget the history of our ancestors and recall vaguely that we are Italian American, or Scotch Irish. How many people know their great grandparents names? All cultures, living and dead, have distinct attributes, and one of ours is a pronounced tendancy to live in the now and a preference to reject history.

I don't think that makes us fools, because as a nation we have been quite successful on a short term basis.

[spin]

31. When you say, "We throw away worthless things."

you cause me to believe that you feel that most Americans think history is worthless.

Obviously, if that was your point and you are correct, then most Americans would be stupid.

Taught properly, history is a fascinating subject. I was fortunate to have good history teachers as I was growing up. They had the ability to bring history to life.

An understanding of history also makes a person a better citizen and a more knowledgeable voter. Sometimes I wonder if the establishment would rather we really didn't know much history. A little knowledge can be dangerous.

[Ozymanithrax]

35. I do think the dominant attitude held by Americans is that history us worthless.

No, that doesn't make Americans any more Stupid then any other culture. Some cultures place such a high value on history and tradition, they find it difficult to deal with modern technology and trends,they live in the past. Americans have a Strong cultural tendency to live in the present or the future.

I have always loved history, and read avidly. And where I agree that knowledge of history makes a better citizen, it is not our reality. Depending on where you were born, and your politics, you may even have an entirely different idea about what even happened in history. In many places the civil war was the War of Northern Aggression. There are others whose history include founding fathers that were far right wing Christians who created a Christian nation. I've known people who believe that a cabal of Jews (Illuminati) rule the world from behind the scenes, and they have history books to prove it. And there are people who do not even remember that George Bush's administration passed the first big bailout, that Republicans caused the housing crises with deregulation and their ownership initiative. Those people do not have a history and not even much of a short term memory.

But that deson't make them stupid. In other areas they can be remarkably inteligent.

[spin]

41. I was born in the North and got my high school education there .....

but I moved to the South and have listened to those who believe that the Civil War was actually the "War for State's Rights." I also was been exposed to the Illuminati conspiracy theories when I was in my twenties and they led me to an enjoyable exploration of conspiracy theories through the years. Some are hilarious and impossible, some have a little basis in fact and a few are fact not theory.

I find myself increasingly irritated at the methods we use to teach. If a person had fallen asleep 200 yeas ago and woke up today, he would find the world totally bewildering until he wandered into a school. He would say, "I know where I am at, a school. The only difference is that in my day the blackboard was actually black."



My grandsons both play computer games and I have really been impressed with War of Warcraft. This fantasy world could easily be adapted to teach history. Students could journey back to ancient Rome, the days of the Revolutionary War in our nation or the Great Depression and be sent on a "quest" to obtain information. In the process they could learn much about life in the period and the opinions and feelings of the people. A student could sit in the Roman Senate or our Constitutional Convention and listen to the debate and arguments. He might serve in a Roman legion or sail with Horatio Nelson in the Battle of Trafalgar, live a virtual life as a slave in the South or an immigrant processing though Ellis Island.









It would interest the technologically advanced students we have today far more than a book, a teacher and a blackboard. The emphasis of history might be placed on understanding rather than memorizing names and dates. Our current generation loves electronic devices and computer games. We need to adapt our education system to the present.

It's possible that if the games were made interesting enough not only students but many adults would enjoy playing them. Imagine a game based on the Civil War where you could play either side. If done properly it could show both sides and how they viewed the events preceding the war, the war itself and the results of the war.

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. Funny twenty years ago

My instructors cared less for dates and more for process. Dates? There is this thing called a timeline. We all consult a time Line.

History teaching has changed from when you went to school.

As to the WoW used to teach...it has been experimented with. Alas, it works with some, not all students.

[spin]

52. I'm old, but I like timelines ...

I use "The Timetables of History" frequently.
http://www.amazon.com/Timetables-History-Horizontal-Linkage-People/dp/0743270037/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1287438094&sr=8-1

Some quick research shows some interest with using WoW for education. I believe that early failures can be overcome with more research and efforts. Teachers may disagree but change is difficult. Republican parents will probably go ballistic.

Video games like World of Warcraft and Second Life could be used for education
Published: 7:00PM GMT 01 Jan 2009


Men on a mission: World of Warcraft largely involves "questing"

Researchers believe interactive games such as World of Warcraft and Second Life could be adapted so that children learn skills from them that could be transferred to real life.

They believe that the "immersive" aspect of the games in which the player suspends his belief means that the brain is particularly engaged and can absorb complex issues.

***snip***

Dr Merrilea Mayo, director of Future Learning systems at the Kaufman Foundation, said the games can also help close the gap between under and over-achieving children.

"Unlike lectures, games can be adapted to the pace of the user," she said

"Games also simultaneously present information in multiple visual and auditory modes, which capitalises on different learning styles.

"Although the field is still in its embryonic stages, game-based learning has the potential to deliver science and maths education to millions of users simultaneously.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/4060646/Video-games-like-World-of-Warcraft-and-Second-Life-could-be-used-for-education.html

A New Project – World of Warcraft In School
by Lucas on May.12, 2009, under Education, Games, Thoughts

For over nine years now, I’ve been playing MMORPG’s. It was a student who introduced me to Everquest back in 2000. Since then, I’ve played primarily with students, former students, and folks from around the world in a guild that I lead called Harbingers of Light. We’ve progressed through Everquest, Dark Age of Camelot, and World of Warcraft. It didn’t take long before I was convinced that these sorts of virtual environments must have some sort of place in education. How many times have I thought, “If I could just use this feature or that, I could easily teach concept X?” If my students were as motivated about Cell Structure and Function as they were about knowing the intricacies of a fight in Molten Core, they’d all have “A’s.”

As a gamer and a teacher I had a connecting point with many of my students. Discussing loot or an upcoming raid always gave us something to talk about outside of class and allowed me to develop a rapport with students who often didn’t fit typical high school molds. My classroom became their hangout during break and lunch. I was always amazed at how easily they recalled minute trivia about the game world, often quoting specific statistics about a piece of gear or their character’s game statistics. Their ability to think critically about a particular strategy in a boss fight blew me away. These were not necessarily honors-level students, either. Sometimes my poorer-performing students would amaze me with what they knew about the game.

Why couldn’t we use a game like this in a school setting? Why not, indeed! What would it look like to have a computer lab full of students all playing World of Warcraft together with their teacher (projected on the screen at front, of course). I finally took the time to write down many of the ideas that I’d been formulating. “There are some real lessons to be taught in all of this!” I shared my ideas with one of the coolest and most forward thinking gamer/educators I’d met at the 2008 Games Learning and Society Conference, Peggy Sheehy. Peggy’s feedback was very positive and she wanted to share it.
http://edurealms.com/?p=48

Wow! 3D Content Awakens the Classroom
Three-dimensional classroom materials are thrilling both students and teachers with their stirring visuals and powerful impact on comprehension and test scores.
* 10/01/10


From her first encounter with stereoscopic 3D technology designed for classroom instruction, Megan Timme sensed it could be transformative. “I was so engaged,” says Timme, principal at Hamilton Park Pacesetter Magnet School in Dallas, an elementary magnet school focused on fine arts and leadership. “When I thought about all the possibilities of what could be done with it, I knew it would be fantastic.”

Last spring, when she began pilot-testing 3D content in her third-, fourth- and fifth-grade classrooms, Timme wasn’t disappointed. Students donning special 3D glasses were immediately absorbed in the immersive experience and caught up in the images that seemed to soar from the projector. They learned how to calculate the volume of unusual shapes through objects that could be moved around and viewed from all angles. They hopped aboard an asteroid (virtually speaking, anyway) for a tour of the solar system. They witnessed the life cycle of a plant, from seed through reproduction. They dissected a frog and went inside the human body to see how antibiotics work.

Timme observed benefits for all types of students. Those who tended to be disruptive or inattentive during traditional instruction were so enamored they uttered nary a peep. Those with limited English proficiency suddenly had a visual that helped them grasp concepts where mere words had failed. Gifted kids were making so many new connections and asking such provocative questions that the lessons often mined territory far beyond what Timme and her teachers had anticipated. Now she has begun to consider what else the technology could have in store for her students.
http://thejournal.com/articles/2010/10/01/wow-3d-content-awakens-the-classroom.aspx

[nadinbrzezinski]

61. I will stand by what I said

it will be very effective with some kids, but not all.

That is the nature of teaching methods, what works for one group, don't necessarily work for all.

Hey I am all for using holo tanks (yes they are under research) to put people in the middle of events... but am aware that for a small group that will not work either.

People learn differently.

[spin]

62. Agreed, but ...

the current educational system (as far as history) has major problems.

If we can interest 50 to 70 percent of the students and actually interest them in history, wouldn't that be an improvement?

With time and effort we can improve the system.

We need to try anything we can to improve from this:

High school drop-out rate in major US cities at nearly 50 percent
3 April 2008

A report released Tuesday by an educational advocacy group founded by retired general and former Bush administration Secretary of State Colin Powell finds that almost half of all public high school students in the US’ fifty largest cities fail to graduate.

The report states that only 52 percent of public high school students in these cities graduate after four years, while the national average is 70 percent. Some 1.2 million public high school students drop out every year, according to researchers.

The report finds that, overall, 17 of the public school systems in 50 major cities have graduation rates of 50 percent or lower, and the average graduation rate of all 50 systems is 58 percent. The findings are based on federal Department of Education statistics for the 2003-2004 school year.

The study, sponsored by America’s Promise Alliance and prepared by the Editorial Projects in Education Research Center, also shows a staggering difference between the drop-out rates in major urban school districts and those in adjoining and more affluent suburban districts. Overall, high school graduation rates are 15 percentage points lower in urban schools as compared to those in the suburbs. In twelve cities, the disparities exceed 25 percentage points.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/apr2008/scho-a03.shtml

We can argue back and forth, but what would be helpful would be some links to sites that discuss your position. Obviously, if only 10% of the students benefited from the use of teaching games, I might agree that the effort might be worthless. Still, I might argue that the people who developed the programs lacked the ability to develop effective programs.

I would like to see a system where successful game developers and companies received a government contract to develop learning games with the potential of a fortune in profit if they were successful.

[nadinbrzezinski]

64. The us educational system is in the drink

But it is not because of lack of WoW sims.

Regardless I hope to be teaching college students soon, a slightly different population, where money is so short they need instructors, but no money to hire them.

This might very well be on purpose.

But the ahirosticity in the us is part of the culture.

[spin]

71. We desperately need to change something in our educational system ...

and I admit, I'm not sure exactly what.

I do know that today's students enjoy computers, cellphones and other advanced technology. Therefore, it would seem obvious that in order to interest them, technology might work.

From what I understand, discipline is difficult to enforce in today's school systems and this has been a problem for years. I also know from observation that interaction with a computer reduces counterproductive interaction with other people who are present in the same room.

If nothing else, those who can work productively with computers could be placed in classes where the technology was utilized and those who were unable to work with computers could remain in more traditional classes.

[Odin2005]

47. I've had that same idea. Use interactive games to teach history.

[spin]

53. I think it has potential. See post #52 above. (n/t)

[DemocracyInaction]

15. Over entertained/under educated

...it is far more than "history" that "we the people" are ignorant of.....and we wonder why the jobs are going "bye, bye". I wonder how much more entertainment it's going to take before they realize they can't afford that thar Teeeveeee anymore because they are permanently unemployed?

[Terry in Austin]

19. Alas, history IS myth

But "myth" doesn't really mean "untrue story." It's about the cultural narrative, the stories we live by.

We have progressive narratives, we have conservative narratives, we have christian narratives, we have historical narratives.

The historical narrative, however, is intensely political -- like the saying, "history is written by the victors."

We need narratives -- myths, if you will. We especially need history, and should strive for a historical narrative that accounts for what facts we might know and discover. This is not to suggest, though, that there is anything like one true, "accurate" history.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. Perhaps you should read some New History

You might realize that it is not that simple. Alas you will have to read the American Historical Review and a few other specialized journals.

No, it's not secret, but most Americans don't care to hear about Eugene Debbs. And of course mother jones is a lefty magazine... :sarcasm:

[Terry in Austin]

26. That's cool. And it's a narrative that will suit many people.

The mistake, I believe, lies in citing "History" with the same authority as, say, citing physics. Science doesn't do cultural narratives; cultures do.

There are many histories, each of them about as accurate -- in whatever sense you care to say -- as the next. That's not to say that history as a study is unimportant, or less true than science, but just a different kind of truth. And every bit as valuable.

That said, I agree with your point that most Americans have a poorly developed sense of history and don't much care about it. Much the same when it comes to politics.

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. And fhat ignorance, willful as it is

Goes into voting patterns.

That said I did not say it is a hard science. As much as working historians strive for objectivity, we understand that's an ideal.

Let's just say a few posts here reveal just how much In the dustbin people want it.

[Terry in Austin]

56. Objectivity in history

Well, this is getting downright metaphysical. Okay.

"Objectivity" is usually meant as a claim to "the truth" or "reality." Scientists have a good system for impartial collection of data, i.e., scientific method. Scientific method also avoids any claim to "objective reality."

An honest historian may strive to be impartial, as does a good journalist. These jobs all involve collecting and vetting data. Trouble is, a collection of facts is not very interesting until you start asking "what does it mean?"

Once you start answering "what does it mean?" you cross the line from impartiality into narrative. When you start trying to account for observations, at that point you're, well, giving an account -- telling a story.

In the political realm, there are constant references to "history" as a source of authority, guidance, whatever. Amid all the table-pounding about it, seldom is there any mention of which history, or whose history. Your version? My version? Marx's version? US high school version? We pick the stories that we think are the best to live by.

Agreed, the general level of ignorance about the past is frustrating; however, I wouldn't say that it's so simple as a willful refusal to accept some singular notion of History.

It's even likely that ignoring any account of the past is itself a political act, although not one I particularly sympathize with. It certainly doesn't promote intelligent voting patterns!

[nadinbrzezinski]

65. Hey welcome to history 500 level work

As part of fhe training we had to read a wonderful book, titled... Objectivity in History, dealing with the issue.

It is an ideal, I try to strive for it. Most historians do.

Now textbook writers at fhe oh grade and secondary school levels don't get me started.

[zipplewrath]

30. Subset of anthropology

History is probably more accurately considered a subset of anthropology, or sociology. If one was to try to teach history in any sort of culturally or politically "unbiased" way, you would probably teach a cultural/anthropology course and then the history would almost be an "aside".

For example, a very effective teaching method for the large scale immigration of irish to the Americas would be to teach what the living conditions, skills, and cultural traditions of the irish at the time, and then one would END with "and so they decide that it was worth the risk to climb aboard the holds of ships and move to the US". From there you pick up their influence, and their interaction with a new culture in the US. There, you'd meet the culture of Jim Crow and unionism.

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. Other way around

History goes back to oh Herodotus.

I don't expect Americans to know fhat either.

[Adsos Letter]

38. Both Takaki and Daniels have take an approach somewhat akin to what you suggest

Ron Takaki A Different Mirror: A History of Multicultural America

Roger Daniels Coming to America (Second Edition): A History of Immigration and Ethnicity in American Life

There are certainly others, but these come immediately to mind. Your point is well taken, and much of the New History is incorporating the insights and method of other disciplines.

Your comment reminds me of William Dever's recent call for archaeology (and related fields) to become less isolated and more integrative of insight and method.

[Adsos Letter]

36. I earned an M.A. in History, and find it useful in innumerable ways...

I did comprehensive exams for the degree, rather than thesis, and the reading list (50 books for each subject field) contained much of the New History. Older historiographies were examined, while the reading list offered competing interpretations incorporating studies which incorporated a broader method than Ranke's "show me the document" school.

Personally, I think Bailyn's Ideological Origins of the American Revolution and McCoy's Elusive Republic (a thorough examination of the debate over the national political economy) should be required reading for all high school seniors.
Edited to add that Nash's Unknown American Revolution would be an excellent addition as well.

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. Let my bias show.

Zinn's history of the American People should replace a few textbooks.

[Adsos Letter]

39. I agree that it should certainly be included as a contrasting interpretation

and a much needed corrective to a historiography whose purpose is primarily one of Americanization, as discussed in Baker's Affairs of Party: The Political Culture of Northern Democrats in the Mid-Nineteenth Century

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. You know what is funny?

Part of the allergy comes from the policy decisions oh back in '46 by the AHA. Why we have this battle, still raging, over the New History, and what it means at the curriculum level.

[Adsos Letter]

42. Well, Gary Nash, who wrote "Unknown American Revolution" would certainly agree

look at the fight he had with Lynne Cheney over the 1994 National History Standards.

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. So would Eric Fonner

Too much inside baseball

[Adsos Letter]

45. I thoroughly enjoyed Eric Foner!

His Free Soil, Free Labor, Free Men and Tom Paine and Revolutionary America and Reconstruction were all on my reading list.

What is his relation to Philip Foner, whose work I am certain you are quite familiar with, given your work in Labor History.

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. Eric is his dad

Read Who Owns History. He opens with that and his father losing his job due to his politics.

[Adsos Letter]

48. Ah, thanks. I've wondered about it for awhile, just hadn't troubled to look it up.

[DevonRex]

49. I think the problem is that we're not taught the whole story.

For example, I didn't learn until a 300 level course in college that Stalin had actually tried to make a pact with the UK, which the UK refused, and then with the US and was again refused, BEFORE he made the nonaggression pact with Germany prior to WW2.

I also didn't learn until then that Stalin had provided arms to help the Republican army in the Spanish Civil War because he was so concerned about the rise of fascism in Europe. The UK and US refused to help. Of course Stalin had the interests of the Soviet Union in mind when he did this. But any world leader puts his own country's interests first, so I don't see that as a strike against him.

Stalin was undoubtedly an evil dictator. But surely we could be taught the whole story about him. It would not lessen his atrocities in the slightest. What it would do, however, is point out some of the foreign relations mistakes made by other countries in regards to the Soviet Union. And who knows, if relations between the US/UK and the USSR had been better then perhaps millions of lives could have been saved.

At the very least, the UK and US should have taken Stalin's warnings about Hitler and Germany much more seriously than they did.

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. I hope they also went into why they didn't

and that is part of the problem

Some 100 level courses go into things like that. Others don't.

Some go into New History, and giving people a voice. Others do not.

Part of it is the fear instructors have of being accused of being left leaning pinko commies. Hell one of my poli sci instructors took pleasure in taking Young Americans for Freedom apart in class. He was VERY CONSERVATIVE, but since he assigned Lenin's Manifesto he was accused of being a commie. Never mind he was a vet of the CIA, and the USAF...

So he took pleasure in taking them chickenhawks apart.

Yeah he knew I was a lefty, but we had a mutual respect because we were both willing to put our asses on the line. He had zero respect for the new right, and saw them as a danger.

[DevonRex]

51. Yeah, they went into it. Some of it sounded more like CYA excuses

from the official versions. Luckily this particular teacher really delved into things so we got a taste of how to dig deeper to find out what really happened. I was fortunate to have only one conservative teacher in college and he just taught Poly Sci methods, you know, statistics and stuff, so he couldn't do any real damage. :)

[nadinbrzezinski]

54. my BIL had an instructor in the JC system

that went into labor history. IN fact, he assigned a textbook, he was required to, but didn't use it.

I might have to go that far. I don't know. I think I found a pretty reasonable textbook... Zinn's.

[DevonRex]

57. I'll have to check that out. My son wants to do labor law eventually

so that would be really good for him to have. Maybe as a stocking stuffer at Christmas? Thanks for the idea. :hi:

[nadinbrzezinski]

59. There's power in the Union

just released.

http://www.amazon.com/There-Power-Union-Story-America/dp/0385526296

[DevonRex]

70. Wow. So, so cool! That's exactly the kind of book he'd love.

:hug:

[nadinbrzezinski]

72. There are a few others, but this is the most recent one

I'm working on one myself.

[WinkyDink]

58. Allow me to generalize: "Learning." Or, perhaps more accurately, "Retention of Facts."

Who is vice-President, again?

[nadinbrzezinski]

60. Biden, but that is just me

and no, it is not about facts. It is a cultural imperative.

People don't see a use in it. They really don't. And we are proud of being ignorant and insular.

[TheWatcher]

63. Americans are alergic to REALITY. Of ANY Kind.

Trust me, the people of this country are completely willing and prepared to FIGHT and DIE for their precious myths, propaganda, lies, false paradigms, and artificial comfort before they ever consider in a dream within a DREAM of waking up to, or accepting anything else.

I wish this were not so, but we may have already passed the point of no return.

[nadinbrzezinski]

66. Yep.

Other day somebody asked a good question but the real answer wasn't too popular.

[TheWatcher]

67. But nadine, don't you understand we need to lather ourselves in hedonistic indifference

And accept that no matter HOW far across the Rubicon we go, no consequences will ever come to bear, and everything will be just fine.

Welcome to the myth of the Muddle Ages. (Yes, Muddle Ages)

Abandon all this independent and critical thought.

You know very well this is terrorism, and it can't be tolerated.

Hopefully you will repent, and come Dance With The Stars before it's too late.

:crazy:

[nadinbrzezinski]

68. Shh there is a slow waking up

A certain union having an action in front of the Hilton in LA. A few others...it is starting.

[taterguy]

69. No. An allergy is when coming into contact with something causes a negative reaction

Lots of Americans simply don't bother taking the time to learn history.