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A "You were right!" to all who warned of Pandora's Box !

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Laura PourMeADrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 07:58 PM
Original message
A "You were right!" to all who warned of Pandora's Box !
A "You were right" to all who warned that an invasion of Iraq would open Pandora's Box. A box that contained two sects who have been split since the 7th century.

Perhaps, the box Saddam kept tightly lidded, could have been closed. Perhaps, if we had created a peaceful and prosperous society - the Sunnis and Shiites could have learned to co-exist. Perhaps, if basic needs had been met, those who lived for years under martial law, would have been pliable enough to create a decent society. We will never know. All we do know is that Bush offered them no peace plan, just chaos, joblessness, and little water and electricity. Nothing good could grow in that.

Enter Al Qaeda whose mission is the elimination of foreign influence in the Middle East. And what better way to do that but to pour fuel on Bush's Sunni Shiite fire? Yes, the terrorists have won, they have won, they have won.

So, where do we go from here? The options?

Stay
More death. Could last as long as we're alive. All US resources will be drained. Any shred of support for the US that's left will evaporate.

Leave
More death. Could be mass extermination. Total and utter chaos could ensue.

That's why I support Biden on this one. The only chance for a successful outcome - split the country.
How about this plan:

Kurdville
Sunni Town (think of the song "Funky Town")
Shiitesburg

Divide acreage and oil revenue proportionately, per capita.

And my special plan for Baghdad - rename it the City of Peace. The only inhabitants allowed will sign a solemn oath - that they agree to coexist without arms, in peace. At the outset, the UN peacekeepers will surround the city. (think Hotel Rwanda). But in my dreams, the city will grow and grow, and eventually the walls would disappear at Iraq's borders.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 07:59 PM
Response to Original message
1. Sadly it's not your country
to split.
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. My thought
exactly.

Just maybe we should allow cizitens of a country to determine for themselves. That would be something new for America.
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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #2
33. yea, like keep our noses and our bombs out of other countries
but we have been doing this since throwing the Indians off their land and putting them on Reservations.
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sheerjoy Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-22-07 07:00 AM
Response to Reply #33
39. To our shame, yes. n/t
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blues90 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #1
3.  That's true
First we attack and shock and awe Iraq , create deliberate chaos , ruin their lives and hang Saddam . Now america thinks it has the right to do whatever they want to Iraq and all they want is for us to get the hell out and never wanted us there in the first place .

There now is no good end to this madness .
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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. It should not have been ours to invade either.
There is no clean or perfect way out of this. No matter what, people will die. If Iraq is to be a viable nation or some kind it will have to go through its own birth pains, its own labor. We cannot do it for them.
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Laura PourMeADrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. You know, I really believe that we forced them to form a new
government too soon. I used to think the same way - leave them alone - let them do whatever they wanted it's their country. But I've changed my mind. They were living under iron rule for so long they were shell-shocked. They really needed the direction of a kind and peaceful coalition to guide them. A temporary structure that would allow them to acclimate to the world. A chance for the dust to settle. Instead, they got chaos. They weren't and aren't anywhere near ready to take over. Too much has happened - and all of it because of Bush's failures.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. LOL
"a kind and peaceful coalition."

:rofl:
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Laura PourMeADrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. right - it didn't exist. but if it had - if the motives for taking over
and ridding them of Saddam had been honest and true - it could have worked.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Sure.
If only Iraq had been brutally invaded by a kind and gentle coalition.

:rofl:
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liberal renegade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #10
22. Remember the reason for going in?
Let me remind you, WMD's. Not the liberation of the Iraqi people, not regime change, not the violation of the oil for food sanctions, not because of a link to Al Qaeda, nor to overthrow Saddam.


WMD and only WMD, when that didn't materialize they changed the reason weekly.

Saddam was a fucking maniac, no doubt about it. The Iraqis were much better off under Saddam!

How much kool-aid have you consumed?
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Laura PourMeADrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. Trust me. I know exactly how it all went down. I'm talking about
trying to come out of it with some positive result not stay to fuel the hatred not leaving to let them go up in flames.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #26
31. Well, if you knew this WMD thing was bullshit...
why are you sold on the need to "stabilize Iraq" bullshit?

It's all the same thing.
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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #22
34. as bad as Saddam was he had control over the country.
yes, it was all about WMD, and how Iraq was a imminent threat to us, what BS, we can't let this happen to another country we can't this is pure madness. We all know what happened to Germany with the nutcase they had in control.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-22-07 06:09 AM
Response to Reply #22
35. O I L
nothing's changed.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #5
20. I think you are wrong.
This is not evidence of Bush's failures - this is exactly what Bushco wanted.

Please do not forget that there was a point, some year and a half ago, when the Shia and Sunni were starting to cooperate both against us and against the small Al Queda force. They were not engaged in wholesale slaughter of each other.

Then, an unknown 'someone' blew up the Golden Mosque, kickstarting the sectarian violence. Iraqi bloggers, like Riverbend, were posting all the time saying that such violence was unlikely and easily avoided - Sunni and Shia had been living together as a nation for generations, their families were intermarried. There had just been an election that was remarkably free of violence, with the expectation that once they had their new government the US would leave.

We had no intention of leaving. So someone blew up the Golden Mosque, and we stayed - while the sectarian violence exploded and now threatens to drag in Iran, Saudi Arabia and Turkey.

Don't blame the Iraqis. Iraq is nothing but Bushco's Ethiopia, the New World Order's Spain. What it is really about is controlling their resources while consolidating power in the Homeland.

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Laura PourMeADrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #20
28. Yep. Never expected any solution till the idiot's gone. And you
know what else. In the last DOD report there was a line that got no press that I thought should have been shouted from the rooftops. In the section on "peace efforts" there was a line about there being none scheduled due to lack of funds. Out of all those billions you tell me they couldn't reserve a meeting room at the Baghdad Holiday Inn?

I think you are so right - Bush has absolutely no intention of ending this. It is so obvious since you will NEVER EVER hear him talk about a time when we are not there.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #1
16. I'd say it has been ours since we installed Hussein. We have shirked
our duty for decades but the mess became ours when we accepted it from the Brits that began the whole clusterfuck.

A responsible landlord would hire a competent manager and make sure that the resources were available to properly manage the place, but that just isn't the American way, we're the vilest of slumlords, always have been.

Now we have a project that has been condemned and we're trying our damnedest to get out from under it and nobody's buying, but the tenants know where we live, and they are pissed.


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Rydz777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #1
21. Right. For at least a half century we have gotten into a mindset
that we have the right - even obligation - to decide what is best for other countries. This has gotten us into no end of trouble, not to mention earning the enmity of those we try to dictate to. Now I think our resources are running out - along with our hubris.
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sheerjoy Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-22-07 06:59 AM
Response to Reply #1
38. But why not?
Your (not mine) resident (spelled right) is trying to run it from the oval office. :sarcasm:
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-22-07 07:02 AM
Response to Reply #38
40. All valid points
but Iraq was once a sovereign country. Now it has been totally fugged up by Bushco. Another 25 Iraqis died today.
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sheerjoy Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-22-07 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. Amen - and such a shame
that we continue to allow * to destroy them and their country. Saddam was a sweetie pie compared to *.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
6. then by all means...
go to Iraq and split their country.
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Laura PourMeADrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. thanks. I'll get right on it.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. I'm sure you will.
You're very sincere.
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 08:11 PM
Response to Original message
8. We are part of the problem
As long as we stay there will be problems. There is a third option. Leave and invite the world community to oversee the rebuild. Invite the UN in to clean up our mess. We can't do it.
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dweller Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. sounds like
the Kucinich plan.

why, yes indeed. http://kucinich.us/iraqplan

dp
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Laura PourMeADrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 09:24 PM
Original message
thanks. I just thought it was Biden. Ok, so every that's bashing
this is bashing biden and dennis.
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Laura PourMeADrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #15
29. thanks. I just thought it was Biden. Ok, so every that's bashing
this is bashing biden and dennis.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 08:16 PM
Response to Original message
13. I want some of what you've had
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 08:20 PM
Response to Original message
14. "It's all their fault!"
After all, they didn't remove Saddam and his WMDs even though we bombed them for 11 years ... so we were forced to invade. Now, even though they voted for the best slate of candidates we allowed to run, and have the best Constitution we could help them write, they still haven't signed over the oil fields to the highest bidders (in a rigged auction) like we told them to. So, it's their fault if we leave.

Indeed, it's their fault that they can't behave within the terrific boudaries drawn by the British with the 'help' of other European colonial powers.

I don't think I've ever seen or heard of a more dysfunctionally codependent rationale for raping and pillaging in my life.

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Laura PourMeADrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #14
23. What are you talking about?? I'm talking about the utter failure
of everything and every action that has been taken and tried and the zillions of dollars spent to achieve absolutely nothing - worse than nothing. I'm talking about trying to repair the worse clusterfuck created by Bush of all time. I'm talking about doing something that could have some glimmer of hope to achieve some kind of peace. If I can read between your veiled sarcasm - I take it you want to leave. That's what I always thought too - until I stopped to listen to the arguments for dividing them up. Sure, it's an imposition of our will - but we fucked it up - we (DimSon) committed the most horrific imposition of them all by marching in there.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #23
32. I'm talking about the 'habit' we seem to have in shifting the blame.
Edited on Mon May-21-07 09:33 PM by TahitiNut
We keep repeating the same 'mistakes' of arrogance that colonial powers have always made. I subscribe to the Tikkun approach.

http://www.tikkun.org/iraqpeace/

An Ethical Way to End the War in Iraq.


Now that the toothless resolution disapproving of the Bush escalation has passed without making any impact on the President, a growing number of Americans are beginning to realize that the real issue is the war itself, not merely the latest escalation of it, and that the war in Iraq is unlikely to end until Congress specifically cuts the funding for the war and refuses to pass any funding authorization for the Dept. of Defense until the troops are headed safely home. Many Americans are not ready to make that demand on their Congressional representatives quite yet. They want to know what will happen next after funds are cut. To answer that, and strengthen Congressional resolve to end the war, the peace forces need to introduce a new ethical and spiritual vision of how America could change the way it acts and is perceived in the world. Here’s how.


I. The War is Wrong: Repentance Is Necessary

The remedy for wrong-doing begins not only with the act of changing the path (stop funding war) but also with apology and repentance (in the Biblical sense repentance conveys a return to one’s highest self after one has gone astray and betrayed one’s highest values). Therefore, we propose that the President (or, if he won’t, then the Congress should send representatives who) go before the U.N. and acknowledge that it was wrong for the U.S. to invade Iraq, that hundreds of thousands of innocent people have been killed and wounded in the chain of events that our invasion precipitated. For the sufferings and deaths that have come for this invasion he should ask for forgiveness on behalf of himself and the American people who overwhelmingly supported this great wrong.

The scripture declares:
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
(II Chronicles 7:14 KJV)

It is not a sign of weakness to confess wrong-doing. We believe that it is only the spiritually strong who are able to do this. Such a confession will go far to restore the stature of America as a truly moral nation. And in repenting on behalf of all Americans, including those who are not religious, the president (or Congress) should acknowledge that this entire society has mistakenly adhered to the view that safety and security can be achieved through domination or control of others, but that a better path to safety and security is to treat others with generosity, kindness and genuine concern for their well being.

It seems unlikely that the President would pursue this path, so we urge the Congress to pass a resolution rejecting the strategy of domination and embracing the strategy of generosity, and calling upon the world’s peoples to forgive our society for the destructive path it has followed. It should then convey this appeal for forgiveness on behalf of the American people to the peoples of the world.


II. Let the Arab League, the U.N. and International Peace Forces Replace U.S. and British Forces

Fellow Arabs and Muslims know the language, understand the culture, and especially the religion of the people of Iraq far better than do our own soldiers, who usually perceived as modern-day imitators of the Crusaders who once devastated Muslim countries. Volunteers from Muslim and non-Muslim countries should be able to provide protection for Sunni, Shia and Kurdish interests. The U.S. and Britain should withdraw all our forces as this Arab, Muslim and International force takes our place and conducts a plebiscite to allow the people to determine their own future. The U.S. should give our military bases to this force, and require that any U.S. corporation operating in Iraq give at least the majority of its profits to the task of Iraqi reconstruction.


III. Rebuild Iraq and Launch a Global Marshall Plan: Generosity Beats Domination as a Strategy for Homeland Security

True repentance requires the works of repentance. It is not enough to simply say “We’re sorry!” So the U.S. must commit the hundreds of billions needed to fully rebuild Iraq. Yet the rebuilding of Iraq should only be part of a larger Global Marshall Plan which the U.S. should announce now—to commit at least 1% of the Gross Domestic Product (GDP) of the U.S. each year for the next twenty years toward the goal of eliminating global and domestic poverty, homelessness, inadequate health care, inadequate education, and for repairing the environment. Just as the first Marshall Plan allocated 1.5-2% of GDP after the Second World War to the rebuilding of Europe, this second Marshall Plan, extended to the rest of the world, will provide far more homeland security for the U.S. than the currently planned military spending that will squander our resources.

The Global Marshall Plan we propose is a major step toward a Strategy of Generosity which is the key to rebuilding trust in the United States. It is this kind of generosity which is required by the Scriptures of all the Abrahamic religions and should be pursued not only because it helps increase American security and respect for America around the world, but because it is morally appropriate and religiously mandated. If our Global Marshall Plan is backed by American political leaders purely for utilitarian reasons, it will be far less successful than if it supported and perceived by others around the world to have been supported by Americans because of a genuine caring for others and not solely because it is in our security interests to do so. Fostering an ethos of genuine caring for others—countering the ethos of selfishness, materialism and me-firstism that has been the “common sense” of a cynical media and our market-driven-culture—must become the highest domestic and foreign policy priority for our society.

We, the undersigned, support the concept of repentance and generosity as central to the way to end the war in Iraq. We call upon our elected officials, media, and fellow citizens to give serious consideration to the strategy outlined above which requires a fundamental rethinking of what can really provide security for the U.S.

Drafted by Rev. Tony Campolo and Rabbi Michael Lerner, and signed by Sister Joan Chittister, Cornel West, Sheikh Kabir Helminski, Rev. Glen Harold Stassen, Rev. Rick Ufford Chase, Rabbi Aryeh Cohen, Howard Zinn, Robert Inchasti, Jeffrey Kuan, Thomas Moore, Rabbi Marcia Prager, Douglas Rushkoff, Svi Shapiro, Rabbi Stephn B. Jacobs, Marshall Berman, Donald Gelpi S.J., Res. John and Susan Gregory-Davis, Father Luis Barrios, Deepak Chopra, Rev.Deborah Johnson, Mitchell Plitnick, Thomas Powers, Kirk Schneider, Rick Simon, Archbishop Sergius, Rachel Simon, Robert and Barbara Trumbull, Stanley Klein, Phyllis T. Albritton, Youseph Yazdi, Julie Heston, Pat Gottschalk, Michael Wolfe, Amanda Strosahl, , Cathy Sultan, Marcia Halpern, Louise Clark, Kimberly Vossler, Michael Bresnahan, David Knechel, Lon Ball, Robert Lange, Robert Wolfe, David Sheidlower, Gregory Halpern, Marian Dobbs, Maureeen Wesolowski, Donna Loving, Jonathan Jacoby, Ivy Glick, Bruce Billings, Thomas Newman, Linda B. Belle, Irfan Kahn, Angelina Fiordelisi, Jerome Griffin, Ann Holub, Cathy Webster, Curtis Hamilton, Hiroko M. Crispin, Michael Pearson…and YOU (if you can donate over $300 and there is space, we hope to list your name here, but whatever you donate is very needed if we are to raise the money needed to publish this in media around the U.S.—and all names will be listed on line at www.tikkun.org/iraqpeace

When Jesus said “Love your enemies,” we think he probably meant: don’t kill them.

http://files.tikkun.org/current/article.php?story=20070228100934336
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maine_raptor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-22-07 06:52 AM
Response to Reply #32
37. TahitiNut, Thank you for posting that.
I have not seen it before, thank you for enlightening me. :thumbsup:

Parts 2 & 3 are do-able, but number 1...........I don't think so.

I don't think it would be politically possible. Just my humble opinion, mind you. It's a great idea, but I doubt it would ever happen. As for the rest (2 &3), I think that's a damn good start.
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Laura PourMeADrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-22-07 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #32
43. I AGREE 100% with all of this,
Edited on Tue May-22-07 09:06 PM by Laura PackYourBags
100% ! (There - I said that without one single personal slam) BUT, IMHO...It is totally missing the crucial thing - a creative way
to allow them a way to co-exist in peace. Money won't do it. Dividing the country with the express
purpose of achieving peace - AND ONLY achieving a peaceful environment - no
colonialism, no ulterior motives, no theft of anything. All of what you
quote - plus this - could be a win win win win.
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Th1onein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 08:34 PM
Response to Original message
17. And who is supposed to impose this division?
Edited on Mon May-21-07 08:37 PM by Th1onein
And how much will it cost? And how many will die while it is being imposed upon these people?

I'm just asking.
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Laura PourMeADrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. What do you propose? I'm just askin.
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liberal renegade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #19
25. how about we apologize and get the fuck out.
Then send a check to rebuild their country. Drawn on the accounts of Halliburton, Bechtel, Blackwater, Bush, Cheney and all the other criminal corporations who've profited from the blood and guts of Iraqis, Americans and everyone else that have lost their lives.
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Laura PourMeADrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. sounds good.
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Th1onein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-22-07 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #19
42. I don't think we CAN split the country up.
You can't impose democracy at the point of a gun, and you're not going to split that country up at the point of a gun, either.
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Kazak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 08:36 PM
Response to Original message
18. Shiitesburg!!
Now, doesn't that have a nice ring to it?
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Strelnikov_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 09:12 PM
Response to Original message
24. There is not enough cohesion for even a partition
Pretty much 'Gangs of Iraq'.

Sometimes, there is no fixing it. You just have to live with the consequences. Consequences we will be suffering for decades at a minimum.


Accepting Realities in Iraq
by Dr Gareth Stansfield

http://www.chathamhouse.org.uk/pdf/research/mep/BPIraq0507.pdf (.pdf warning)


- The social fabric of Iraq has been torn apart.

- There is not ‘one’ civil war, nor ‘one’ insurgency, but several civil wars and insurgencies between different communities and organizations; there is also a range of actors seeking to undermine, overthrow or take control of the Iraqi government.

- Iraqi nationalisms exist, but one distinct ‘Iraqi’ nationalism does not. Iraq has fractured into regions dominated by sectarian, ethnic or tribal political groupings that have gained further strength from their control of informal local economies.

- Regional powers have a greater capacity than either the US or the UK to influence events in Iraq. This arises from a historical legacy of social interaction and religious association that exists irrespective of modern international state boundaries.

- The Iraqi government is not able to exert authority evenly or effectively over the country.
Across huge swathes of territory, it is largely irrelevant in terms of ordering social, economic, and political life. At best, it is merely one of several ‘state-like actors’ that now exist in Iraq.

- Security in Iraq cannot be ‘normalized’ in a matter of months but instead should be considered within a timeframe of many years. If the Multinational Force is withdrawn, Iraq’s nascent security services would not be able to cope with the current levels of insecurity.


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Laura PourMeADrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Thanks. Sorry to read that. What's so sad is that there were
probably a lot of good solutions if we had had the power to participate. If AssClown hadn't closed the door to any other opinion. Now, unfortunately, it's probably too late to do anything to save them.
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JTFrog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-22-07 06:37 AM
Response to Original message
36. I don't think it was ever about Iraq's
WMD's or stability or democracy or freedom.

It's about OUR democracy and freedom. It's about making sure that all our forces are over there so that when the Bush cabal throws out the next 9/11 we will have no way to defend ourselves. Marial law will be declared and there will be no elections in 2008.

I may be way off base here, but that's what my gut has been telling me for some time now.
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